Fixing the Games Industry With Jonathan Blow | Sacred Symbols+, Episode 368

Please welcome esteemed game designer, director, and programmer Jonathan Blow to the show. In a wide-ranging two-hour interview, Jonathan and I (Colin) dissect a Tweet he sent out back in January, one that touched on many problems plaguing our industry. (Indeed, it's that Tweet that had me reach out to him to begin with.) In a sometimes-political and always-insightful commentary, Blow fields questions on myriad topics. How are modern games competing for our time? Do some people conflate "gatekeeping" with "having standards"? Why are corporations so averse to merit-based hiring? Has a level of nihilism and disillusionment infected the rank-and-file pool of developers? Does our industry sit disconnected from the vaster realities of the economy? This is a deep chat that hits all of that, plus much more. Enjoy.
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[@DeanCutsforth]

I truly and sincerely appreciate both you guys *not* editing out the periods of silence while Jonathan collates his thoughts, and Colin allowing him to do so in the first place. I notice so many hosts be utterly terrified of "dead air". This feels like an actual conversation, which is what I value when these types of personalities get together.

[@Jgiuly999]

Couldn’t agree more mate. The jazz musician Miles Davis once said that the actual beauty in music is the space between the notes. Being comfortable in moments of silence and pauses is so important. This shows Colin’s mastery as an interviewer.

[@isturbo1984]

the long periods of silence while Jonathan tries to figure out how to dance around saying trigger words so not to offend regressives. jesus christ. well, he's called "the smartest man in gaming," not the man in gaming with the biggest backbone.

[@metaldiceman]

@@isturbo1984 It's more that he's trying to articulate word choice in the most eloquent manner possible. Even if you say trigger words, there are refined ways of organizing those same words together. It's clear that Jonathan understands and respects the art of word choice.

[@isturbo1984]

@@metaldicemansure. i know. he's refined for sure. but its a 80/20 thing thats pretty obvious.

[@Nors2Ka]

@@isturbo1984It's a case of "been there, done that". Any time he's more spicy people get very mean in a bad way. Like the tweet that was referenced in this interview, the quote tweets were VILE, and that wasn't even a very spicy take. There is backbone and then there is not wanting to get thrown shit at you for a week for five sentences you've said.

[@_Meatball_]

Colin, I absolutely love when you interview interesting people from within the industry. One of the many reasons LSM is S tier content!

[@honest-p9893]

My respect for Jonathan has reached new heights with this podcast. His insightful perspective on politics and the gaming industry is always engaging and informative. Thanks for your great podcast.

[@Eliterubberduck]

Really appreciated this conversation. I remember back in 2020, Jonathan Blow had come out saying he was not going to go to any conferences to give speeches if they disinvite people over cancel culture. I believe it was in part generated by a conference disinvitation of Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob) for saying "Defunding the police is a terrible policy...", which is now the mainstream opinion across both political parties. The usual suspects lit Jonathan up for daring to speak up but he didn't seem deterred. I gained a lot of respect for him because of that. I'm glad to see he's still willing to say what he thinks, it makes for a very interesting conversation and honestly gives me hope that maybe more people will start doing the same. If not, at least this conversation brought some fleeting levity. Good work Colin!

[@stuckintheinbetween]

Love Jonathan Blow. I'm always happy when there's someone out there who's outspoken but not just saying crazy things to get attention. What Jonathan says is very rational. Take meritocracy, for example. Why is it obvious in sports but not as obvious in other career fields? Equally problematic to me is that we've dumbed down education. Whether it's English (reading, writing), math, science, etc., we have schools not properly teaching their students and holding themselves and their students accountable. We're raising a generation of children ill-equipped to succeed in a meritocracy-based system. Teachers are failing their students and parents are failing their children.

[@0ia]

I think that the education system being a requirement and societal expectationn for vulnerable kids while also annihilating ambition and harming student's brains is a bad societal problem. It seems like in elementary/middle/high school, people do what they are told and don't try to be the best at anything. I relate to what you say.

[@stuckintheinbetween]

@@0iaWhenever I had problems in school, for whatever reason, it was always my male Social Studies/Geography teachers who were the most helpful. Even if it had nothing to do with grades, if it had to do with fitting in or whatever, it always seemed like they were the nicest, most caring, and most helpful. I'll always remember their names because of this. They wanted the best for me, they wanted the best out of me, and they helped me improve myself, both as a person and a student.

[@0ia]

@@stuckintheinbetween :)

[@ThatDereKid]

.hopesfall.

[@BM-lw8bz]

As an outsider that casually tuned in to see why the game dev environment is terrible at the moment I found Blow saying that he’s spent the past 8 years making an engine and a programming language instead of an actual game. I then go to read the comments section and see that you called him rational. Listen to Blow at 15:48. He knows he’s making bad decisions. The game industry is making poor management decisions. Blow can sort of do this because he sounds borderline genius and has some cash. You all sound lovely and I think Blow is a good guy. But seriously I’ve seen this before with smart programmers and they shoot themselves in the foot sometimes by aiming for perfection.

[@remakeyourself]

Colin is the absolute master of shutting the fuck up. For someone who has so many insights and genuine opinions, he shuts up better than anyone else in the industry.

[@nintendude794]

Nice pfp. RIP Akira Toriyama.

[@program7592]

the rarest of skills

[@desertgsrider1]

I'm laughing because Jonathan keeps saying "This may upset people" before being honest and having an informed opinion. It's LSM, where differing opinions are very welcome! Plus, Jaffe gets most of the unwarranted "upset" people targeting! Loved this interview!!

[@Dmpurcell90]

I have some opinions that would absolutely appal even LSM

[@desertgsrider1]

Lol. We all do but unfortunately I would like to keep my job so I will keep them to myself. But when I retire; I will enjoy being honest for once! @@Dmpurcell90

[@timlanegames]

Nailed it 👍 it’s an open minded community. Love the LSM followers.

[@thunderballsz]

Yeah, Blow clearly came into this interview on the defensive knowing full well he might polarize. But honestly, I didn’t find him polarizing at all. He came across as reasonable and rational. Very compelling interview.

[@AwkwrdlyAnmated]

I fully expected to click off a few minutes in but I actually was really captivated by this conversation. Jonnathan was an awesome guest and had some great insight.

[@darrentg6]

Same!

[@shingetsu10]

Braid and The Witness to this day remain two of the most fascinating and intellegent games I've ever played. From the awe-inspiring ah-ha puzzles to the ingenious delivery of story-telling, this man is one of pure talent, and I cannot recommend enough for people to go check out his works

[@ekoms108]

I dunno man. He hasn't delivered. He didn't include a final secret or Easter egg in the Witness ... Even though it required you to watch a 2hout KZbin video about Easter eggs and mystery in media

[@nintendude794]

There are a few final secrets, arguably including the 1 hour lecture you mentioned and its corresponding secret, which is not actually ‘required’ seeing as how it is itself a ‘secret’.

[@ekoms108]

@@nintendude794 I suppose. I was little let down when I turned all the pillars white and it did it didn't trigger anything new. I was bummed.

[@LifeOfToyz]

As someone that works in software development in the government contracting sector, I loved this inside baseball discussion of the game development industry. Jonathan says the things I've been thinking for some time, but have been waiting to hear others say out loud.

[@DJTS1991Yes]

Jonathon Blow is my digital spirit animal. Whenever I think about him, he inspires me to be smarter.

[@jbow2114]

I never knew much about Jonathan as a person apart from the “internet” seeming to agree that he was a grumpy asshole/old man screaming at the sky. This podcast has thoroughly dissuaded me of that impression. Great show.

[@MikeCampo]

It's generally best to let your opinion of someone be formed by that person directly!

[@ITR]

He has some really bad takes, but he has some really good takes too. Rather than caring for what impression he gives you as a person, it's better to consider each idea on its own merit.

[@khaoscero]

Jon is just very neurotic, it's not something he has control over but even in this conversation you can see the critical negative lense of course, just less grumpy and more concerned, but similar idea

[@RussTeeTrombone]

The default for someone working in software should be grumpy. The industry is loaded with snake oil and horse 💩 More should discuss this

[@jbow2114]

Curious what you mean by this. I’m a software developer myself and I don’t really feel this way in general. Honestly it’s the most fulfilling job I’ve ever had (and I’ve had a few, in various industries like healthcare, construction, and service)

[@philbertius]

Jonathan is expressing so many of my innermost thoughts on the business world, I feel so much less alone now. Thanks for this amazing conversation!

[@jorr1313]

Another awesome episode and conversation! Though I didn't agree with Jonathan on everything he makes some excellent points and I loved his transparency. Consider me a full-blown Jonathan Blow fan.

[@MURPHYL28]

You shouldn't agree on everything someone thinks, shows you're in the right place

[@HEARD201]

I love everything about LSM but this is my favorite type of content on the channel. So good!

[@slayergt3104]

My take aways from the conversation.. The game industry is experiencing the consequences of being irresponsible, the economy is experiencing the consequences of the government being irresponsible, that's largely because of individuals within it being irresponsible. And that the way we fix the games industry is for us all, on a collective level, to become more responsible for our own actions and life choices. Live within our means, honestly, and with humility 🤔 awesome conversation 👍

[@nintendude794]

“You can’t fix other people, but you can fix yourself.”

[@0FFICERPROBLEM]

The economy is not fucked for normal people because anyone was irresponsible lol, this is exactly the way it was supposed to go

[@jeanjacqueslundi3502]

It's just capitalism and its limits. We didn't built a world based on human values and human needs. We built a world based on money, short-term gains etc....everything is showing us we have to adjust our value system to reflect what REALLY matters in life. The society we have is not meant to thrive.

[@jzilla1234]

Biggest household expense is rent. This rent Inflation was driven by a loss in housing stock to large private investment companies buying up all the properties. Creating a scarcity

[@IfYouSeekCaveman]

I had a religious experience playing The Witness. What an incredible work of art.

[@moloney55]

I need to get back to it, got probably about 1/3 thru and fell off a bit. I'll probably need to start over which gives me anxiety. I had a notebook I was using but that may be incoherent coming back years later.

[@ivanbraidi]

One of the best games ever made and a true work of Art.

[@OnlyRealCloud]

I couldn't solve any puzzles. Maybe should give it another go

[@moloney55]

@@OnlyRealCloud I'd say take notes and also realize though technically you can "solve" any of them at any time there is a route your guided on that gives you some of the building blocks of what different symbols mean. If you walk up to one and it's complex and contains a bunch of stuff you haven't seen before make note of it and what's on it but then go look around as you almost definitely skipped over the easier ones that train you.

[@Hack_The_Planet_]

I didn’t expect Jonathan Blow to look yoked like Dave Bautista.

[@VariantAEC]

I thought I was the only one confusing him with Dave Bautista. He looks like Bautista's cousin or something.

[@elsuperfish]

He looks like Dave Bautista mixed with Karl Pilkington

[@mercurymachines4311]

I’ve been looking forward to this episode for a long time, it should be a great conversation.

[@Garoth4582]

So have I! This man has made two masterpieces. Braid was the game that really made me a believer in the "indie" space and the witness was a one of a kind game. It's a puzzle game that takes the most simple mechanic and transcends it to a beautiful, surreal, and mind bending experience.

[@MrBrownie2310]

Love the interview series with Colin. My favourite plus episodes!! 🎉

[@vincevirtua]

This guy is super interesting. I will now play this game I've had in my library for a while named Witness.

[@nintendude794]

My second favourite game of all time. Avoid spoilers and enjoy!

[@MikeCampo]

You might hit moments where you're completely stuck and the urge to give up will kick in. Try to push through. Take a break or come back to that puzzle later and you'll eventually solve it. It's one of the most satisfying experiences when you finally finish the game.

[@Ushterek]

I still didn't manage to finish the game but I absolutely love it. M8ght try again soon😅

[@P4PR1K4_]

​@@nintendude794 what's your number 1

[@Sightaker]

The fact that Jonathan's bracing for blow back before he says things and still saying what needs to be said honestly is a sign of a man of courage

[@TheElliotEquation]

Jonathan blow back?

[@MrBrownie2310]

10/10 Episode 🤌

[@bigcatscorner]

Absolutely by far the best episode from LSM I’ve heard and I’ve been enjoying for a few years. As being a WFH employee since March 2020, this resonated with me extremely personally. Thank you both so much for having this conversation.

[@MrCristoflanga]

I agree so much with what Jonathan says starting at 19:00. As someone who reads literary novels and comic books, plays modern board games, watches tons of movies, etc., most videogames don't seem innovative or exciting enough to me. I think board games is actually where the most daring designers are at right now. You play something like John Company 2, with all its complex inter-player dynamics, and it makes most videogames seem very conservative in their understanding of what a game can be.

[@Zen.Connection]

I think Jonathan Blow is a genius when it comes to game/software design and development (The Witness is one of the greatest games of all time IMO), but when he puts on his amateur sociologist hat it really comes across like he has spent way too much time on Twitter. He admits this during the interview which I thought was a nice show of humility, but then goes on to fully indulge in that mindframe anyways for an extended portion later on. Regardless, always happy to hear Jon's thoughts on games and learning about where he's at with his projects, so while I found several comments to be extremely questionable when the two delve into politics, some of the political discussion I did find appropriately measured and interesting, so I want to be clear that I did enjoy the video. Just my two cents.

[@HickoryDickory86]

And as a human being, he has every right "to fully indulge in that mindframe." We have freedom of speech, where we get to express our opinions about matters that affect us, and he is sharing his opinions about matters that affect gaming and the games industry-and that includes business and econonics, seeing as he owns his own company that employs others, which means he has a vested interest and a highly informed opinion about such things.

[@FLACO1942]

Love these conversations. Colin, Jonathan, you two are AWESOME.

[@salmark9080]

Jonathan is 100% correct on modern art and our current standards. Rather than valuing what's beautiful and aesthetic we take any slop and call it subjective art

[@G_Rad_Ski]

Been that way since Dadaism

[@nintendude794]

The reason that anyone's thorough, transparent, and earnest attempts at objectivity in criticism are so eagerly interpreted (or, more often, outright ignored) as being 'anti-woke' is largely because the very notion of objectivity itself implies/requires a hierarchy--of quality, based on merit. Merit in the context of criticism could be defined by such characteristics as internal consistency (coherence) and flawlessness (demonstrated proficiency of craft/technique, apparent achievement/fulfillment of artistic goals and ideals, minimal observed presence of potential error or fault). Merit and hierarchy (and ideals) alike are all inherently anti-thetical to the 'woke' worldview, and the instincts it instantiates. According to the Book of Woke, no person or race or sex or height or weight or occupation or geographical location or lifestyle or sexuality or "lived experience" is superior or inferior or qualitatively different to any other, they are all equal--none are above or below in any way whatsoever and therefore all are totally equal in value, equal in merit. Therefore, no winners allowed, so instead everyone gets a participation trophy and a pat on the back, in all outcomes. Big problem with that: "when everyone's Super, no one will be." When no one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. As an example, women now have to ("get to") become soldiers and firefighters and construction workers and CEOs instead of nurses and teachers and counselors and mothers--because there 'are no differences', and because there -*-can-*- be no differences. Forget the fact that if the idea of 'no differences' was true, affirmative action would never have survived its infancy, or never existed in the first place. But alas, even on 'leveled' Diverse Inclusive Equitable playing fields, women [and "minorities"] still struggle to -*-compete-*- -- emphasis on compete, again merit, hierarchy, etc. -- and essentially end up serving their new masters as mere props and tokens, tragically and ironically. This also applies perfectly for men and women entering each others' athletic arenas under the guise of trans-inclusivity--so extreme is this new view that men and women are 'equal' that you must also view them as wholly interchangeable, regardless of circumstance or context. When no one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. Same goes for art and criticism. The woke (more than the anti-woke) would prefer to "say nothing at all unless they have something nice to say", generally, unless of course they're talking to or about the perceived anti-woke... More importantly, the woke (more than the anti-woke) would prefer to forget film and design and art altogether--instead, everything is content now, and no content is superior to any other content: no content *can* be superior to any other content. Just consoooom product, and get excited for next product. Be content with mere 'content'. Enjoy the g0yslop that passes for entertainment nowadays, chud. You've *earned* it... No one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. In fact, why not just let the subscription services and the AIs handle alllll your art and entertainment needs and desires from here on out. As if you have a choice in the matter. Own nothing, live in pod, eat bugs, and be happy. That day is closer than anyone, including me, is prepared for. No one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. Every one is equal in the eyes of the rootless transnational capitalist cabal of masters. Anyways... A majority probably don't even recognize these instincts of theirs, or that they're connected in this way. “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn The same or similar could be said of videogames, films, and all other articles of art. For more on this topic / these topics, I highly recommend: Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut The Force Awakens Review: Introduction by MauLer (but only the first 64 minutes or so, for our specific conversation here) An Apology For Roger Ebert GDC Talk by Brian Moriarty All Cultures Are Beautiful series by Sargon Are Some Cultures Better Than Others? by PragerJu I mean PragerU Brave New World by Huxley Google's Ideological Echo Chamber by James Damore

[@chickenbroski99]

@@nintendude794 Wokeism is proven illogical the second you see one lion pride take out another, or observe the evolution of a species throughout time via it's domination of other species and intra-domination of certain types within that species. Modern people need to get some balls and call this ideology out for what it is because by the time it destroys our society it will be a killing field not a time for debate.

[@dragstra8448]

​@@nintendude794 Frankly this might be one of the most insane posts I've ever come across, quoting the fucking Incredibles and citing PragerU and Sargon. Or literal introductory literature such as Huxley or Vonnegut. Or the most fucking milquetoast taste on "Games are Art" ever by Brian Moriarty. All while disparaging "woke". I'm not sure where you get the notion that "woke media" says nothing unless it has something nice to say, or that they're against the idea of objectiveness. "Woke people" might not believe that there is literally some divinely ordained truth to the universe that makes some art better than other, but 99% will confidently tell you that Huxley and Vonnegut are literal shit taught to high schoolers who have never had to think critically for more than five seconds. Actual "woke" is when Toni Morrison makes Claudia, a ten year old black girl, racist towards white people in her novel The Bluest Eye. Is Claudia justified in this because normalized White beauty standards in America mean she will never be beautiful (she will never have blue eyes)? Is it justified because she had a bad experience with a white girl her age telling her she was ugly? Or are her growing feelings of violence towards White people a tad bit extreme? After all, it's not like any of the other Black characters in the book are saints either. It's a rather destructive book, all told. All the characters are perpetuating the racist, misogynist, violent society of 1940's Urban America, and a lot of the nuance is lost when in the end it will always be White Americans who are more valued in the country. Not because of any actual merit, mind you, but because they simply "are" (and there's a whole world and country history that leads to that assumption all the way up to today). If your experience of "woke" is Twitter, or Reddit, or KZbin videos by literal racists and misogynists, you need to grow the fuck up and read learn about the world. It's so easy to confine yourself to an echo chamber where you define entire groups of people by your third hand interactions with them. Have you ever thought about that? Have you ever thought about how PragerU might not be portraying everything in an objective light? Do you perhaps agree with them because you already have a preconceived worldview and this simply confirms it? Challenge yourself. Don't listen to Jonathan Blow to say you agree with him. Respond to his ideas, because I sincerely doubt you will always 100% agree with what he says no matter how big a fan of his you are. As for me, though I love Toni Morrison's work and how antithetical it is to the White experience in America, I think it has blindspots and is genuinely mean spirited at points, no different than Claudia's racism (see: the lives of people considered White trash in Cormac McCarthy's Suttree, and their struggle to overcome it. Great thing to think about in tandem with Morrison). That doesn't invalidate everything Morrison has ever said, but it does mean that I recognize limits in her arguments or points where I simply disagree. Also, if you really want to think about meritocracy, you'll have to contend with the fact that it's a utopian vision impossible to realize. You say that women "have to" become this or that. No. Literally no. This is not "woke mantra". "Woke mantra" is ultimately about letting people realize that they have the choice to become whatever they want to me, and more importantly, dismantling systems that predetermine your value as a person such as racism or misogyny. Tell me, why do you believe that women make worse soldiers, CEOs, firefighters, or anything else? Is it something inherent to their gender? Because then there's a great discussion to be had about the societal definitions of gender and sex. Believe it or not, "science" is not some all defining objective truth! It is a human generated belief that will only ever justify human notions of reality. People will cite "science" when saying something like that "XY is a man and XX is a woman!", ignoring the people with XYX and XXX chromosome types, the people who are born XY with traditionally-associated female genitalia and XX with traditionally-associated male genitalia, the people born with a mix of genitalia and internal reproductive organs. "Science" has already told us that binary sex does not exist and that gender is a malleable, social construct that varies from culture to culture (unless you inherently believe some cultures are better than others, in which case you would either have to enter with an extremely good faith argument or simply shut the fuck up). But "science" can never overcome people who will pick and choose and censor as they please to confirm their pre-baked beliefs. A meritocracy will always fail because it will never actually be objective. And this makes it oppressive to everyone who is not """objectively""" superior at something. Take note of the fact that I've forgone the typical "But marginalized people have it inherently harder because of systemic oppression, and that's why we have to lift them up!" argument to prove that "merit" is a self contradictory idea when applied to actual humanity (of which we all are). As much as I agree with it and it's validity, it is not the only way to prove that it's stupid. And I don't say any of this to mean that "merit" is a useless concept, but when applied to defining the entire world, it becomes very harmful very quickly. (Also, never think for one second that you, or anyone else, is a paragon of logic and merit. That is literally the opposite of logical; you are turning off your critical thinking skills). On a finale note: Your dumbing down of "woke people" into people who enjoy subscription services and AI is simply stupid. Most "woke people" recognize subscription services as predatory models and AI models as only ever regurgitating the oppressive ideals that humanity loves loves LOVES to perpetuate in most mainstream media, making it actually quite un-"woke". If you are going to become smart about the world, it will not be from listening to fucking Jonathan Blow talk about video games. He's generally a fucking idiot who has mildly interesting insight into game design, particularly with puzzle games (see? I hate his guts, but I still listen for the occasional gem. It's almost as if I'm capable of critically thinking for myself!). Nor do you have anything to learn from Brian Moriarty, MauLer, or PragerU unless you are interested in baby's first approach to subjectivity and objectivity, how to be irrationally angry at nothing, and alt-right propaganda respectively. I implore you, genuinely think for yourself. Engage with works, don't just accept what they have to say as fact and don't define people and entire movements by the few interactions you have online. Even here, with Huxley, engage with this idea: what if there actually is something utopian about its society, equal to the traits that make it dystopian? Did Huxley write out an assassination attempt on the concept utopias or is the novel's London perhaps more complex than a binary good or bad? Even if you do choose to see London as ultimately bad, does that completely eschew the accomplishments of the supposedly "utopian" society?

[@0ia]

43:46 "Relative to what else is out there - what people could do with their time and attention and thoughts - games are not as overwhelming as a propostion as a way to spend your time." It feels to me that boring games rely on my addiction and lack of drive. I like that Jon said this because I haven't thought about it as a "way to spend time as opposed to something else" because growing up, it was my addiction and lack of drive that had me playing games, not because the games were particularly amazing (of course they _sometimes_ were). Now, I don't play games much at all. I'm happy I moved onto crafts and projects. 48:12 Lately I've been working less so I can make a habit of pushing myself extra hard during the time I work (put in a real effort as Jon said). It feels great to know the time that I work is truly valuable. I do not feel like I'm wasting my time. It's way more progress with less time put in, and hopefully I'll be able to put more time in as I train myself. I feel more true to my crafts. 1:28:00 I think our culture does not set anyone up for mastery in any particular craft. One example of this is pushing young people to generic schooling and university. Generally people don't try to be the very best by long hard work. I think to achieve mastery, I need to be able to exist independent of a society's ideas, because the ideas I've been exposed to is feeling good about bad work. I'm trying to be less dependent on that (or curate it better) because I'm aware that I really really inherently am. 1:34:00 I love socrates.

[@everpassingpxpx]

Great interview, Colin. This is the type of content that is missing from games journalism. The only thing that would make it better would be a panel discussion format, but I can appreciate how difficult it would be to coordinate and schedule something like that.

[@Epiousios18]

Some of the "audio quotes" from The Witness are truly profound and have become some of my favorites in existence. Just the fact that the game got me to read works by Arthur Eddington and Nicholas of Cusa is something I will aways be thankful for. Much respect to Mr. Blow, can't wait to see what he does next.

[@DrTheRich]

Jonathan is living the story of every game programmer's fantasy... not only is making your own engine not good enough, we also need to write our own compiler and programming language. and then of course with that we are going to make the biggest most ambitious game ever that started out as a small project...

[@bigfrankalbigguy789]

Turns out if you have overwhelming ability and the right personality it doesn't have to be a fantasy.

[@DrTheRich]

@@bigfrankalbigguy789 well, as of now, it still is lol... he's come further than others, sure, but let's look back when he actually ends up with a finished game.

[@rusi6219]

​@@DrTheRichhe'll either ride it out till the end or go broke. His personality won't allow him to cut off from the sunken cost.

[@jimcarrey2866]

I spent the entire conversation yelling at the screen "yes, that's right" or "exactly what I think". I'd only push back regarding the remote work. Office drama, commute, useless meetings, politics, people pretending to look busy to keep their jobs, hallway conversations, all this is gone. I speak for myself, but I'd go to work to work, not to make friends. The social aspect was very unproductive in every company I ever worked. I wanna do my job and get out. Remote work is a privilege and it's up to individuals to be more accountable and compensate any fault about it.

[@CianMcsweeney]

I agree, remote work exposes individuals who weren't productive in the office but got away with it. It also gives employees more time, less stress and gives employers access to a wider range of skills since they're no longer limited by geographic location

[@KayFabeMedia]

I agree but I'm not in a creative field and I think maybe in those fields its easier to be collaborative in that way. That said my quality of life is drastically improved as a work at home worker, and also if these companies really put their money where their mouths were about reducing their carbon footprint they would do this where ever it made sense. I think in many cases they want to micromanage their employees.

[@architect-ki7el]

I do remote work at this point as well, because my focus shifted from caring about what I do to just wanting to do the job and get out. I believe back in the day it used to be different - you would be in a room with people who are all about what they do and always had insights to share about the stuff they do. I believe conversations would be about topics and not personal/social things of the workplace. Nowadays it seems very stigmatized to care about what you do - at least from my experience. You are better off signaling that you are as common as you can be - so why not just as well socially dissociate by working remote and reinvesting the rest of your day in the things you truly care about. Especially the web stuff feels very alienating...

[@gridlock314]

In my experience working at a smaller studio for 5+ years, I'd agree with Jonathan Blow on this one. Game dev, especially with smaller teams, is pretty different from your standard 9-5 job where you just do your job to get paid and then leave. People get into game dev because they're intensely passionate about their work, and most people I know want a collaborative, creative, and tight-knit environment. That requires building and maintaining healthy team dynamics, especially because it's an inherently stressful and exhausting job. You both 'have' and 'want' to put so much of yourself into it, and sometimes that can blur the lines between personal and work life. It takes a very specific kind of person to want it. I've experienced firsthand exactly what he's talking about, where gradually remote work can start to feel isolating. I think it does have a demonstrable negative effect on morale and productivity. Seeing people in person at events and doing more in-office work has had a lot positive effects for team culture. Again, it's very different than most jobs.

[@JustinLatham]

Too many in the American workforce need to be babysat in the workplace unfortunately.

[@r0flcopter]

This interviewer is a professional. I've never heard any interviewer be this patient and not cut off Jonathan Blow. And also keep pace with him and be articulate and everything

[@marvelfanno1]

Love these Sacred Symbols plus eps. It givesunique perspectives into the industry, keep them coming

[@GoranBarac-e8k]

This went much farther then I expected. I loved you guys for being so forthright. I have a lot of respect for both of you. Good luck.

[@Michael-rv5ib]

Games media and developers have lead to a lot of the major problems in gaming. Media hates the fans, a lot of the developers do too, and they’ve let politics overrun a medium that’s supposed to be about entertainment and fun. Gaming just isn’t as fun as it used to be, and the gaming community and culture has been absolutely annihilated by politics and pandering/non-stop fighting.

[@admiralalyssa]

It's nice to see how Colin got Jonathan loose mid-conversation. You could tell Jonathan is usually weary to speak openly early on in the interview, but the last quarter is him just embracing the conversation of politics and giving his thoughts on the economy. Great job hosting the conversation Colin.

[@craigitr0n]

Best Sacred+ episode so far. I could listen to Jonathan talk all day, definitely the smartest man in the room energy emanates from him and I appreciate Colin just letting him talk.

[@bemaod]

Thank you Colin and Jonathan for this. This show really made me think and I appreciate that.

[@KhalilArafan]

Like always, a joy to pick the man's brain in a quality talk. Thanks !

[@TheUballe]

Colin's interviews are absolutely fantastic. I was very turned off with the way his "friends" threw him under the bus to appease the outrage/victimhood mafia. In hindsight, it's crystal clear that God had a way for him, because thay show was absolutely holding him back from growing as a creator. This was a pretty damn good conversation! I love how thoughtful and sincere the conversation was. The guest's insights, on many things, including the meritocracy in gaming, its deleterious effects on the industry, and observations, generally, were quite interesting to hear. Very brave of him, given today's zero-tolerance climate.

[@nintendude794]

Lack of meritocracy, more like.

[@CrimsonSun88]

This was an incredible dialogue Colin. Thank you!

[@ARIXANDRE]

Wow, I think It's the first time I see an interview with this legend. Intelligence + 5 for 2 hours. 😅

[@Camo_T]

Fantastic conversation! Thanks to Jonathan for coming on the podcast

[@delicious_seabass]

I am pleasantly surprised by this interview. Excellent questions and dialogue. Well done.

[@jjam22]

I really appreciate this convo. both of you are so well spoken and thoughtful. it was just a very insightful listen.

[@popemobile]

This was one of my favorite podcasts in a while. (Not just LSM content, podcasts in general.)

[@Arikaiden]

Thanks for the podcast Colin, I appreciate Jonathan Blow's perspective, not just in video games, but in overall life in the US a little bit better.

[@thefattmish]

Great discussion boys. Lots of cool topics discussed and explored. Nice to hear an outside/insider perspective on so many different things.

[@RW-ij1ci]

Someone who aspires to be a solo developer making very smally niche indie games, it's really nice to hear two people talk like adults about the industry and have an honest conversation.

[@jcvdchuck7915]

The Witness is like Elden Ring but puzzles instead of combat.

[@nintendude794]

Great way to put it.

[@SUREILLBYTE]

Did not expect a Jon x Colin thumbnail, INSTANT click

[@borgs101]

Very interesting, insightful and honest conversation. Thanks.

[@Infernal_toast]

30:00 YES THIS IS SO TRUE -- there should be better vetting of indie games to 1) get the garbage off the top store fronts and 2) encourage game devs to do better and 3 ) make the actual good games rise to the front . There needs to be better curation.

[@daLukasMain]

The Witness is my favorite puzzle game OF ALL TIME and I love puzzle games. One of the best experiences that I'll never forget. Still couldn't get that Platinum though with that one trophy that fans would know what I'm talking about.

[@nintendude794]

The Witness is my second favorite videogame of all time and I also am still missing the final trophy. I’ll play the whole game a third or fourth time someday and claim that achievement then. (It’d be difficult to do without a thorough refresher on the game’s “languages”.)

[@daLukasMain]

@@nintendude794 Yeah you're right. Like, I'm really good at puzzles (imo) but I'm just not super fast. So I remember I just kept falling short of that certain trophy because it's on a timer. I'm just not fast enough lol which means I guess I'm not smart enough hahaha. Still, such a great game

[@Goober89]

In High School we had a teacher named Richard Blow and everyone called him Dick Blow

[@jorr1313]

😂 Ok, this comment got me. 😂

[@RFNY315]

I had a HS teacher named Mr. Creme. And we just kinda laughed at that

[@thunderballsz]

Wanna hear something even more on the nose (or tip)? I had a school nurse named Mrs. Dick. Her husband’s name? Harry…….you know the rest.

[@ifstatementifstatement2704]

I like the sheer gall that Jonathan has. Just because he can do it, he will. Programming is fun, so why not. It's time-consuming but still, why not?

[@rusi6219]

Anything worthwhile is time-consuming

[@mukiex4413]

This conversation was way more exciting than I was expecting. I'm really looking forward to the next thing from Jonathan. Edit: I WASN'T EVEN DONE LISTENING, THIS WAS 2 HOURS OF GOLD.

[@tweeeeeex]

Echoing other comments here: I think this is a fantastic interview, and maybe one of Colin's best. I've always thought Colin is great at interviewing, maybe even better at it than he is at podcasting (I mean no offense by that, his podcasting skills are still very solid). The dude knows when to speak up and when to stay silent. I feel like a lot of interviewers, especially these days, tend to talk over their subjects or try to adhere to the topic that *they* want to talk about. Colin does not do that-he allows people to say their piece, while still asking questions at the appropriate time (which works especially well with Blow, who's got all these interesting and insightful things to pontificate on). He feels very old-school journalist in that regard, and I feel like that deserves much respect.

[@aaroninternet4159]

Really amazing interview, was captivated for the whole conversation!

[@mikesaporito1373]

This was an incredibly interesting and intellectual interview. Very much needed with the way the game industry is!

[@MURPHYL28]

Well that was a surprise. I just love conversations that feel genuine and from a place of what they actually think and feel and not from having to toe the line

[@punpun-ya]

a treat to hear from Jonathan, would appreciate for this to happen again!

[@jean-alexandrethibault3892]

Truly a great talk gentleman. Hope to see JB on the show more often!

[@Bobilo06]

This was a really good interview. Thank you.

[@BenRender]

Very informative discussion! While I don't play his games, everything he does will be on my radar from now on. "Very few things are new" really resonated with me.

[@prestonphillips473]

I love that Colin is still able to get interviews with the MAJOR guys in gaming. Levine and Blow are brilliant in what they do and different standouts among their peers and very unique guys. Would love to see, if possible, monthly/quarterly check ins with these guys to get their opinions on gaming news, dev news, and just how their projects are moving if they're able to say. Keep up the work Colin! Absolutely love it.

[@N7Null]

One of the most important in the modern programming/game development space.

[@alchemist1588]

I rly enjoyed this podcast! Thankyou Collin for bringing on these incredible guests. Sacred Symbols + episodes have become something more than they were before. Not to say that they weren't good but the quality and dialogue has been thought provoking and sincere and I rly appreciate that.

[@MrKreisKlinge]

1:26:40 Loved this part.

[@WhatDarrenPlays]

57:17

[@snowranger19]

The thing i disagree with is his view on remote work... he applies his feelings about being isolated, depressed, etc being alone to others. Some people are more depressed, anxious, and do less quality work in a busy, crowded workplace or around other people.

[@user-dj9iu2et3r]

His entire view is myopic. It’s not like he’s going around to other businesses and interviewing their workers. It’s all assumptions.

[@mikeparrott8304]

Some being the key word. Most people are not that productive working at home they just prefer it

[@mikeparrott8304]

​@user-dj9iu2et3r Yes but he I think is right from some industries I've seen as a contractor for various different companies ( we do security equipment)

[@blvckbytes7329]

It's also that most jobs are persued just to make money and to live a somewhat decent life. For little indie-game studios like Jon's, the environment vastly differs. These people work there because they love what they do and they all believe in shared long-term goals. That's just not comparable to some web-dev job where you don't care about the product or your coworkers and just want to grind through the task-list.

[@user-dj9iu2et3r]

@@mikeparrott8304 sure but he’s talking about working in video games as a programmer as if it’s the PINNACLE of computer science (comparing it to being an Olympic athlete or “the best of the best”) when in reality, the people who want to grind that hard end up working at places like JPL, Google, insert other top tech companies here. Working in games CAN be cutting edge but I wouldn’t really consider it the top end as far as programming careers go.

[@ashamedmadman996]

Holy shit Colin got Johnathan Blow! Holy shit!

[@Ushterek]

Thank you for this superb interview!!!!

[@gamerbynight1]

19:40 that’s such a great point. Even for me, when i have free time i tend to open instagram and scroll rather than gaming. Of course this is not a good thing, but social media is really eating up a lot of people’s time

[@BlindMango]

Loved the talk about all the shovelware appearing on storefronts. Sony needs to limit publishing to 3 games a year (until given approval to publish more), they need to straight up disapprove the shovelware which is so unbelievably obvious to spot, and need to just simply be unafraid to say "We have a quality standard now, and to publish a game you need to reach it". They also need to be strict about trophies again: no region splitting, no platinum if it's too simplistic, and just delete all the past shovelware trophy lists on PSN completely to be honest.

[@sentendo7647]

wow I just discovered this podcast and it's super good this interview!

[@damienphoenix1843]

Absolutely fascinating conversation 👏🏽

[@LurkerCandacia]

Loved this talk, very engaged! Thank you both!

[@clairearan505]

I don't think anyone decided religious people were by and large less intelligent. I think that statistically, more highly educated people tend to be less religious. As far as the cultural belief that religious people are idiots, the religious have just not had a great set of spokespeople in recent years. The loss of local community that went with a sort of regional religious cohesion is a big one, but on the other hand, it was harder for me to live openly as a trans person as the beliefs of the dominant religion painted people like me (and still paint people like me) as immoral and disgusting. I think that's a trade I would make again. In my opinion, art is some expression of someone's experience of the universe made for the sake of sharing that experience. It isn't just about beauty, and the expectation of art being beautiful seems sketchy to me. It's an odd limitation to push for. The universe is full of beautiful events and things, but it's also full of incredible destruction and at least in our tiny little corner, unbelievable suffering and depravity. People experience those things, and sharing them in the form of art is meaningful and important. Neither the democrats nor the republicans have a vision for the future. The republicans have a vision of a mythical past, and the democrats have a vision of keeping things as they are. There is no future focused political party, and I think that's because both our government and the majority of our voting population are afraid of uncertainty and the future literally is uncertainty. For most of the people of voting age in the USA today, the democrats are going to give them what they think they want, which is for their routines to stay the same, and for their lives to stay the same or change as little as possible, and hopefully not get worse. Lastly, every single word that enters your eyes or ears changes you in some way. It literally changes you physically. If you aren't diligent, those changes can pile up and turn you into a person that the you of now might prefer not to become. Your paragons of wisdom might be leading you down a path of ruin. Good luck, stay safe.

[@CosmicCaviar]

I would love another interview with Jonathan with less of a focus on the industry as a whole and more of the finer details of making games. I loved when he started talking about his new engine but I want more details about that and about the game they're working on. Food for thought but I know you guys love to give your guest room to take the conversation in any direction. Thanks for the great content!

[@xer0signal]

Even though I disagreed with a lot of what was said here, I think this was still a fuckin great conversation.

[@Ray_2097]

You're a great listener, that's very refreshing to see...👍

[@iamtheju]

Amazing episode. Now see if you can get Phil Fish on.

[@nintendude794]

And Ed McMillen for that matter. Bonus: Rich Vreeland.

[@thunderballsz]

now that’s an interview that could go ape-poop off the rails. would totally look forward to that!

[@chrisc7265]

is Phil doing anything these days?

[@ExpensivePizza]

Considering Blow said himself he isn't an economist he pretty much nailed it. Lot's of printed money contributes greatly to many of these problems. A lot of these companies are not trying to make profit. What they're actually trying to do is grow to a massive size and sell the company to a bigger company.

[@rusi6219]

This usurious financial system is the main culprit. Research economics in Islam - no usury, no illegal taxes, no undercutting, no monopolies,....the greatest system anyone could wish for (except the usurers)

[@jeffersonmcgee9560]

Great conversation! I found Jonathan's point very insightful! Keep it up!

[@Shinobifoxx]

Creating your own language+compiler to make a game is absolutely WILD . I feel like a slacker now 😅

[@forasago]

It's not like he needs the language for the game. He just couldn't take dealing with C++ any more after decades of it.

[@Shinobifoxx]

@@forasago I couldn't take dealing with C or ++ in college either. And that was only a few months 😁

[@courtneywilliams6376]

Fizzing for this one! Can’t wait to see this.

[@Trick0ut]

Even though i dont agree with everything Jonathan said, i do agree with some of it, i learned some new things, and he brought up some very good points about prior beliefs i had that made me think about them in a different way. 10 / 10 episode stayed the whole 2 hours. More content like this please!

[@ottolehto]

Great interview with interesting people. Glad to touch on issues rarely discussed!

[@Tatman2TheResQ]

Consistently interesting and insightful interviews. Too many times interviews just feel like ad space. But Colin brings on the right people and asks the right questions.

[@Excalibur13]

One of the best talks I've heard in awhile, nailed the topics on all fronts.

[@superspecky4eyes]

Fantastic interview. Bravo to all parties.

[@mightquinnable]

Oh, man, Jonathan blow is an interesting man. I was young and didn't have an Xbox growing up, so I only heard of braid. To look back on everything, it seems, that game unleash the love for indies we are seeing today

[@nintendude794]

It was certainly along for the ride at least. Watch Indie Game: The Movie.

[@TorQueMoD]

Wow! Jonathan Blow made some really deep an interesting observations. This was a fantastic episode.

[@BillyBnMore]

What an incredible interview!! Even if I disagree with some of it it was very thought provoking!

[@EpicScreenReviews]

Fantastic conversation. I love the Witness. I think I have all the achievements except one. I played it for the first time last year and felt so dumb for waiting so long to play it.

[@antonshidlovsky5579]

Fantastic, thank you for making it.