Touching the Spider: A Conversation With Ken Levine | Sacred Symbols+, Episode 295

Please welcome a person who needs no introduction: Ken Levine. Ken was kind enough to join me (Colin) on Sacred Symbols+ for an extensive and wide-ranging conversation, one that touches on his history, his games, his studios, his creative approach, and his mantra as a writer and director. It's been a decade since Mr. Levine has launched a new title; it's hard to believe BioShock is nearly 16 years old, while BioShock Infinite is 10! But in his reclusion boils something new, a game called Judas, a product crafted by a small team that promises to once again turn the narrative potential of our medium on its head. What's been on the mind of one of the industry's great auteurs? What's he been up to? How does he feel about his previous games? And -- perhaps most importantly -- is he bullish or bearish on the prospects of modern storytelling?

[@babylonian]

24:54 i love this point - ken is one of the few writers in games who approaches writing like a screenwriter would, and rather than make caricatures, actually tries to understand the characters he makes. we’re so lucky to have him, hahah. great interview!

[@arunadisesh1715]

This is why I pay for this content

[@I_SupaNova]

I’ve said it before but this is the best $5 subscription service in the world.

[@gailja]

It's so good that I pay $25 and I don't even have to lol.

[@alexplummer6397]

This is why I’m patient

[@ToxMod]

Pay?? 😂

[@gleekthemonkey4570]

I’m watching it for free sucker.

[@jasonvanover8999]

The simple fact that these incredible minds and absolute murderers row of game creators respect Colin enough to come on his show and give him their time makes me proud as a fan and supporter of Colin/Last Stand dating back to the Beyond days. Bravo, Colin...bravo.

[@doorshotel]

Real journalist!

[@oldskool4572]

This is how you do an interview. Great to see Ken being so open about his battle with mental health issues whilst having to lead a multi million dollar project. Many forget that these guys are actually human beings and not machines. Bioshock is a masterpiece. But like all great works of art it clearly came at a cost. And of course Colin himself has had to pay a price being in this industry. Yet his love and passion for it, as well as Ken’s, has kept him going in spite of it all. Malicious words and actions have consequences. We might benefit as gamers from the end result that comes out of developing games like Bioshock, and the graft that people like Colin who put into their own projects. But it doesn’t hurt to be reminded that these human beings are doing this because they love the creative process so deeply, they want to share it with all of us. “Giving more to fewer people”. I definitely relate big time to that sentiment. Biggest lesson I’ve learnt in all my relationships with people over the years, is kindness above all things. What a channel. What an interview. Kudos to Colin and LSM. You guys are absolutely killing it. Mainstream games media take note. You won’t of course. But you should. All the best. Nadir.

[@19RoFlMao19]

100%

[@jonathanramos8414]

Artistic people often have emotional issues

[@derpfluidvariant0916]

@@jonathanramos8414 I've begun to realize how true this is. I don't tend to see artists, big or smalltime, that are fully okay mentally. My friends who are artists all have medically-confirmed mental conditions. I'm not sure what it is, but it seems to affect people in a lot of loosely connected fields. Hope y'all stay safe.

[@Chillerll]

You are kidding right? Half of the time he keeps fanboying and putting Ken on a pedestal so high I don't even know how Ken turned it around and managed to remain humble without sounding self-depreciating. The other half he brings up his own anti SJW political bullshit, hoping he can pull Ken to his camp. He is an awful interviewer.

[@oldskool4572]

@@Chillerll You keep being you 😉

[@agentndt9293]

OMG!!! Sacred Symbols stays GOATED! Worth every penny

[@AstralAlien]

I'm an OCD sufferer and hearing that Ken went through what i'm going through right now gives me hope for the future. Thanks for speaking out about that Ken!

[@johnharlan3009]

Congrats to Colin for getting this interview!! This is huge and always Colin can really get into a great conversation in his interviews. Hats off 🎩

[@nellkellino-miller7673]

I remember the last interview Ken gave right before infinite launched. The sheer look of exhausted defeat on his face as he apathetically said something like " we wanted this game to be great, but oh well, pencils down". I can't imagine how crushing that must have been for him. Glad to see him being genuinely passionate about a project again.

[@DylanKirby-pd9dt]

As someone with true OCD, and not the misunderstanding of using OCD as an adjective to describe a general sense of personal cleanliness. I sincerely understand what he went through, and it's like having a haunted house in your head. CBT was incredibly beneficial for me as well.

[@RealMisterDoge]

Cock and ball torture?

[@14_IQ.points]

Amazing interview. I really liked when Ken opened up about how some projects nearly broke him. We really do take these experiences for granted without realizing how much they take from their creators.

[@nothankyou818]

Bioshock is to this day my absolute favorite piece of art. Its impact on me as a young adult cannot be overstated. There is a period in your childhood where you go from being mostly oblivious to the darker sides of the human experience, into a sort of awakening to some of those deeper themes which introduce us to the concepts of philosophy, good and evil, and the sometimes brutal dynamics of society. Its usually between 12 and 16 that we begin to be able to understand these themes and that one piece of art that first opens our eyes to them has a profound impact on us. It was Lord of the Rings for my grandfather and Pink Floyd's "The Wall" for my dad. It was Bioshock for me. I hope one day that I can thank Ken myself for this massive gift he blessed this world with. Bioshock is one of the most compelling pieces of art I've ever experienced and playing that game through for the first time is one of the most fond memories I have in my life. I experienced it at a perfect time in my youth where the mysterious and immersive world of rapture "enraptured" my young mind to a degree of obsession and took me on a journey ill never forget Thanks for the interview Colin and thanks for that magical experience Ken, ill truly never forget it

[@BurnoutsAndBourbon]

NO WAY!!! I just payed through Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite!

[@MisterK-YT]

For the first time? Same. Bioshock 2 is good too

[@csmatrix007]

LSM is incredible & this interview is fantastic. Can't wait for their new game Judas.

[@kylemartin1093]

What an unbelievable get. Nice work getting him in Colin, and what a fantastic episode.

[@ekimoleksander6068]

It would be great to have the full, unedited cut release AFTER the game comes out :)

[@Sylvestror]

Or get him back for a spoilercast

[@MisterK-YT]

Man that would be so cool!

[@MisterK-YT]

@@Sylvestror shit that would be OUTSTANDING!!!!! Remind Colin when the game comes out. @Colin if you end up liking the game pleeeeeeez try to get him back for a spoilercast. I’ve always wanted to see LSM have a game’s dev on for a spoiler cast. I get why LSM doesn’t really do that, but clearly the relationship with Ken is great, cuz he rarely does interviews lately with anyone.

[@jay-mm3zi]

probably more to do with when the game is due. What is it about etc stuff that take two isn't ready to release. Doubt it's actual story spoilers

[@garthdude911]

I want to thank Ken for coming out to speak after all these years. I know he did a fun interview with TheBioshockHub awhile back but it was insanely cool to see him talk with my favorite podcaster in Colin. So excited for Judas!

[@wer1your273]

This is the top quality content that LSM does that shows why you don’t need to be part of the industry to be able to partake in the industry. Thank you all!

[@wolf1nsoul]

It's so great to see Colin geek out like this, Kevin is a legend. What a perfect interview man!

[@MisterK-YT]

Ah man, bummer about Ken wanting to cut out any juicy stuff about Judas. I’m so curious what the “sizable portion toward the end of the podcast” was. That would’ve been awesome to hear. I see Ken and Jaffe purchase their lighting from the same place 😂. (Edit: the lighting gets better a minute in) Anyway, thanks for getting this interview! I’m so excited to watch it!! Edit: fantastic interview. I never know he struggled with mental healf. Good job Colin.

[@phazon343]

Amazing interview. Sucks that parts of the video had to get cut. I hope Ken does more interviews like this in the near future. The guy is a treasure and one of the most influential game developers of all time. The Bioshock series changed the way I look at videogames as a medium and the stories they can tell.

[@me36391]

Ken is way too smart to be in game dev. and hope nothing but the best for Judas.

[@-scrim]

ken levine is such a king. I'll purchase basically anything he creates. W

[@ImSlipped]

This was awesome! Probably the best interview I've seen with Ken so far. I'm REALLY glad you asked him about that Bloomberg article as well. I was curious about what he thought of it.

[@TheTerp97]

Ken, you've made some of my absolute favorite games that I played during formative years. I appreciate you. Thanks for doing this interview

[@lukehuss_]

I came into this with admiration for Ken the creative and left with the same admiration for Ken the human being. Thank you for such a well produced interview, Colin 🙏🏻

[@radekseky4571]

Congratulations Colin for getting Ken on here, and Ken, Judas is my most anticipated game right now. I wish you and your team all the best in these final stages of development.

[@Cloud-strife83]

So insightful! I dont think many people, if any, do interviews as good as Colin does. Thats why i pay my £5 Plus ive been listening to him since Beyond days

[@transvestosaurus878]

Ken Levine has a BA in Drama from Vassar. This is irrelevant to the interview, but I always thought it was cute af.

[@ekimoleksander6068]

It would make 100x better if you guys put together a microphone kit for high profile interviews. Fedex a small pelican case w/ a simple USB microphone, like the RODE NT-USB. It won't be studio quality, but it would be soooo much better than the laptop microphone often used.

[@saintallison]

I understand where you're coming from, but I was thinking while listening to this how the low quality equipment Ken used was endearing. It made him feel very relatable.

[@HCTarik]

Don’t ever let me hear someone say that LSM lacks quality and content. I won’t stand for it.

[@oldskool4572]

😂

[@cthulhu888]

We stand down for it! 😜👍

[@nintendad8168]

I didn't play bioshock until about 2016 always heard the praise . I sat down on a rainy sunday and ripped thru 1 and 2 and then infinite the next day i couldn't put it down . Bioshock is one of my favorite games of all time and series all time . Now my 15 year old is playing it and it still holds up 🙏🙌

[@bloobat]

Some great stuff here, was very interesting hearing Ken critically reflect on how he used to act/habits in the past Vs now etc, not something I've heard many game directors/developers talk about before, e.g talking about insecurity. Thanks again for a great interview!

[@OlaNordmannYouTube]

Such an inspiring person. I love his down to Earth attitude.

[@lordmetroid1]

Great talk, Ken Levine is one of the greats.

[@ToxMod]

What a legend.

[@jettxjordan]

Colin mother fucking Moriarty ! Have to acknowledge this legendary moment as a long time fan of both Ken Levine’s work and the BEYOND days. Thank you Ken for your openness & willingness to share your journey with us, FANS !! You deserve all the praise and your voice in this industry does not go unnoticed. Just turned 30 last week & Bioshock is one of my favorite games of all time and I absolutely cannot wait for Judas🔥!!

[@Doomsdays97]

My LSM patrons continues to be the best monthly Subscription I pay.

[@oldskool4572]

Amen to that brother. Same here.

[@runjab]

They drop a nintendo podcast and then this in around 24 hours. That's hot.

[@spartansw0rd]

Today's my birthday! Gonna celebrate by listening to this banger interview with the creator of one of my favorite games of all time.

[@saintallison]

Hope your day's been happy! (^^,)

[@MisterK-YT]

Happy bday cousin 🎂

[@TempleofShaolin]

I hope to see Judas at the game awards again this year

[@johanrob7972]

Its nice to hear Ken himself say "we weren't trying to make any statement or call anyone out with Bioshock, it was just a cool setting" but unfortunatly video essayist wont care.

[@N7Null]

Can't wait to play Judas.

[@remakeyourself]

I listened to this a week ago as a Patron when I saw it pop up just before walking into a 2-hour "as the dad I have to sit around and wait for a kid" thing and absolutely loved it. Totally going to watch it now to see the conversation play out with non-verbal cues. This was a FANTASTIC interview, and just humanized Ken and game development in general so well.

[@desertgsrider1]

Very respectful to give him the opportunity to make any cuts as necessary!!

[@solosword7958]

This podcast was riveting. Colin once again blows other media companies out of the water.

[@kadabur]

Legendary!! LSM has so much quality content! Thanks to all in the crew especially Micah

[@efp722]

Great interview. First time really listening to Ken- very interesting. Not exactly humble, is he? He’s earned it for sure. Can’t wait for Judas.

[@TheApprentice007]

This was the best interview I have ever heard with a game developer. Open and honest. Not obsessing over blowing the fans.

[@masemaster007]

Big Daddy Ken

[@coolmr3]

Ken seems like a great guy to work for

[@braunsonlalonde3546]

Between this and the Rick Beato, Daniel Lanois interview I am happier than a pig in sh*t today!

[@MisterK-YT]

Who?

[@supernerd9284]

I could never get tired of listening to Ken talk about video games. He really fires up my inner game developer

[@strife9878]

Cool to see Ken .. it's been a while since I've seen him talking

[@gurpreetbajwa4490]

Ken needs to make a deal with Lady Gaga to use her song Judas for his Game Judas when it drops lol

[@DanXcel]

This was amazing!! What an incredible interview!! Thank you Colin and thank you Ken!!!

[@Trai1b1aze]

Such an interesting discussion. Could listen to it all day. Will be there day 1 for the new game.

[@BLonsdale912]

Man I am falling behind on Last Stand content. So much amazing stuff and not enough time!

[@colereynolds2587]

First month subscribing to LSM and what do I get but a one-on-one interview with my favorite creative mind in the gaming biz. Great work Colin and crew. You would not believe how hard I flipped out when I opened my Patreon and saw this interview.

[@jimmymurphy898]

Whoah this is awesome. Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite are some of the greatest games ever. Ken Levine is one of the most brilliant and creative minds in the entire industry.

[@user-ku1gy9yg1r]

Best video game journalism out there

[@MukiMuki688]

System Shock 2 is possibly my all time #1, at least top ten.

[@ccan_max5285]

Super interesting interview/conversation. Thank you.

[@mck8292]

I've always admired open-minded creatives like Ken Levine, who clearly has a vast understanding of how the video game medium works while also standing back on his own experiences. Nobody is perfect and its by making mistakes that you make yourself a better person. As a beginner dev and also suffering from anxiety, it was really interesting and inspiring to heard his story, it bring an all new perspective about the emotional impact BioShock themes and stories always had on me. Such a great moment it was to listen you talking together ! Can't wait to see more of Judas 🤞

[@impotenceaura]

This was a great conversation. I'm ashamed to say I've not played Bioshock as I was too scared when I first tried it. I will definitely be giving it another shot though.

[@justinoreilly]

Great conversation, Colin. So happy to be privileged with a rare glimpse into the mind of Ken Levine.

[@av-ls5df]

Ken Levine is awesome. Breath of fresh air to see the creator of an amazing series like BioShock, etc. to be a (ir)rational, well-spoken, intelligent individual. No pride, no bitterness, just passion for the craft and a great outlook on the various facets surrounding the game industry both positive and negative.

[@mattj2692]

Legend in their fields, fantastic!

[@Echo__plex]

Wow. Nice get Colin. Ken has really made quite the mark on gaming over the years. Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite are two of my all time favs. Well done, sir.

[@wyattwiebe9106]

Legends 👑

[@babayaga4320]

Ken Levine is a creative genius. That allowed him to create Bioshock, and that also seems to put all of his games into development hell at some point, because he's very hard to work for. I, for one, can't wait for Judas, the first game from Ken in over a decade, and I'm all about it, from what very little I've seen, it looks amazing.

[@andrewelofskey3442]

Without Bioshock I would have never gotten into the deep narrative high emersion games that I adore today. Bioshock changed the way I viewed video games and it will forever be my absolute favorite.

[@henrysmith5343]

This interview has got me way more excited for Judas. Ken is a really interesting dude.

[@Eclipsed972]

Excellent interview. It’s great to see Ken again. Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite and Burial At Sea are some of my favorite games and they’ve had a profound impact on my personal life. Thank you very much Ken and everyone involved in crafting those games. I am very excited for Judas and wish the team the best!

[@Bungycb]

Spider-man is better than any of those trash arkham games

[@Bungycb]

Imagine thinking spider-man 2 will be the exact same as the first game lol

[@jessica9485]

Burial is not good

[@VerlixStone]

Absolutely outstanding work yet again, Colin! Ken is seldom in the spotlight so these rare chances to peer into his mind feel like Christmas mornings to me. Could've easily listened to this for three hours straight without missing a beat. Without a single doubt in my mind Judas will shake the gaming industry to its core as Bioshock did before it.

[@jutibbs]

This was a phenomenal interview conducted by one of my favorite journalists in the industry, with one of my favorite creators. Brav-freaking-o

[@DextrousJOE]

Watching this put the hype in me again for Judas, went back and watched the trailer again. Listening to Ken is always cool. Put way more into perspective just how hard games are to make.

[@YourGFsFavoriteBF]

Take all the time you need, Mr. Levine. Bioshock Infinite is my game of the 2010’s decade.

[@cipher9849]

Insane.

[@atanamorell2]

Sooooooo excited for Judas. Ken Levine speaks my dream language✨🌟✨

[@amandakucsera]

Children are a class of people…never thought of it that way.

[@elliotrogers3057]

What a week for content!

[@amandakucsera]

Funny he said that about the ears…there was a guy on my island who built a house with his masonry class and when he left he left everything inside it (he lived in it for a while) and he must have had a thing for ears since there were so many clay formed ears around his house

[@Tigreuh]

Excellent interview, congratulations to Colin for continuously producing great content and thanks to Ken for coming and being open. It's really refreshing seeing content like this after scrolling in the mainstream video game medias and seeing a flood of fake controversies poisoning the discourse. Again, thank you. Can't wait to see the final game.

[@rubening]

So great to hear both of you speaking about these things. Amazing chat!

[@daynmitchell7543]

Can’t believe you got this interview!!

[@TheBatosai]

I was literally thinking where did went last week, lol. It's fascinating how the universe runs in my favor from time to time.

[@capcaveman86]

Best interview in Last Stand History. Bravo 👏👏

[@d8l835]

To this day Bioshock is one of the coolest experiences i have had in games/movies etc. and i have this man and his teams over the years to thank. Im sorry that kind of work was as hard on you as it was, but at least you can know that it truly was special and maybe for you worth it? Regardless, Ken, you are the Bret Hart of games for me, the best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be. I hope your next project turns out exactly the way you dream it will be

[@echos9396]

If you keep giving us great content like this, then I'm going to have to upgrade to the 10 dollar tier!! I feel like I'm robbing you guys at this point!!!

[@MichaelSmith-rr7mo]

This was a fantastic interview. Thank you so much for making this

[@troyisfilming]

Awesome talk, love Ken Levine, will always be one of my favorite game creators and a genuine human being.

[@HoodedDude]

Man, this was such a great interview. Well worth the patreon money every time. Ken Levine is super interesting man and it was interesting to hear about his struggles and the way you both talked about your mental health. Looking forward to Judas, whenever that may arrive. Hope he doesn't push himself too hard again.

[@MaxIronsThird]

Colin needs to play the System Shock remake, it's amazing, in some areas those original System Shock games are actually even better than Bioshock.

[@SuperSeeck]

I work in games and Ken is definitely one of the reasons ❤

[@punpun-ya]

what a great treat, looking forwards the next time this happens :D

[@justin7037]

I dare you to send me anyone in the games industry that does an interview as well as Colin. Well done, happy to be a patreon from day 1, keep doing what you are doing.

[@Gunnumn]

I truly love Ken's work. He feels like the last of his kind, a non-ego centric game dev that wants to make a good game with a killer story. It seems like today, game devs (not all but some) only care about their investors, and its created this ripple effect where it seems like every game is money first player second.

[@jillsandwitch67]

ken levine... non-ego centric... lol

[@DJSteezy]

What an absolutely groundbreaking man and interview.

[@JoRo729]

What a great interview! Ken is like Jo Bennett from The Office where everyone around him keeps working because he makes you wonder if you actually did enough to call it a day or pushed yourself hard enough. He admits he can be difficult to work for, but that's how you get such great games from the guy. I mean if you're going to Harvard, you need to be able to show why you belong. I'm so excited for Judas and I really doubt it will be anything less than great. And part of me loves the fact he enjoys "lowbrow" music and games. Just like many of us!

[@chrisp4039]

Most engaging interview I’ve heard in a while. Great job!