Fixing unwanted colour tints in black and white photo prints

How to adjust the B&W printing mode for Epson and Canon printers. Removing green/brown/magenta casts seen in prints under some lighting.
The B&W test images and info on using them are at:
www.northlight-images.co.uk/t...
Current [Jan 2023] printer reviews [and videos]
www.northlight-images.co.uk/p...
Dye based: G550 | XP15000 | PRO-200
Pigment ink: PRO-300 | P700 | WF8690
Hybrid ink set: ET-8550
17″ width: P900 | P5000 | PRO-1000
24″+ PRO-2000 | P7000 | P7500 | P20000
My original [2011!] more detailed article about the techniques in this video:
www.northlight-images.co.uk/p...

[@metalmick99]

Thanks for taking the time to make this clip, Keith. I found it utterly engrossing. I shall read further (articles by you) not just for my own interest, but also because if I choose to print any of my photos as b&W, I'll have a good understanding of what's going on.

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - glad to help!

[@claudeboussemaere5018]

Interesting idea to take a shot of the print with a gray reference card to evaluate the need for the fine adjustement in ABW. From my experience obtaining neutral prints is quite difficult and requires iterative investigation. People should be aware that the 3 Epson OEM gray pigment inks (MK/PK - LK - LLK) are naturally warm. To obtain neutral prints ABW adds a slight (undocumented) amount of cyan, magenta and yellow. Unfortunatelly ABW treats all papers of a given category (e.g. fine art smooth) the same while as you mentioned paper and coating might differ. For my prints I usually favour a slightly warm tone that looks good under various lighting conditions and don't exhibit greenish or magenta under some lights. However most of the time behind a glass the problem is less visible. What seems missing are true B&W targeted ICC profiles (a method to created them).

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks. The photo of a print technique can be used to create adjustment curves if printing B&W with a profile, but as you say, it's all a bit hit and miss ;-) B&W oriented ICC profiling is something I've been asking X-Rite for, for some 15 years now, whenever they ask me to help with testing or thoughts on new software... The i1Studio 'B&W' profiles were meant as a step towards this, but they were rather small steps I'm afraid... My original [2011!] more detailed article about the techniques in this video: www.northlight-images.co.uk/printing-greyscale-images-and-removing-unwanted-colour-tints/

[@robinlee7531]

Wow, lots of things to consider when printing B&W images to avoid tint. I would've hoped that the paper manufacturer had the specific ICC profiles for printers ready for download.

[@KeithCooper]

Depends on the supplier/manufacturer. None of them will tune profiles for B&W - if there is a B&W print mode it is always worth trying in addition to printing with profiles

[@jimspc07]

In your "So, you want great B&W prints from your printer - what you need to do" video the abbey shot which you also use here is clean black and white on my screen. However. Here in this video it is black and white at the right hand side but at the bottom left corner has a magenta hue caused by the image being in a bent position this magenta hue goes up the left side decreasing as it goes up. Thus hue vanishes as you wave your hands around so it is clearly caused by your lighting, one of your overhead 4k lights about over your keyboard maybe out of spec. But. Interestingly the hue is not seen on the test prints in front of it which must be a different ink or paper or not in the lights influence. The white of the paper edge is also not effected. That brings me back to the ink and paper combination. Ahh! At 5:46 you change the image on the monitor. The black top right on the screen becomes smaller. It changes the hue on the Abbey photo. So the screen reflection or light emission is changing the photo. Also when your screen goes to its 18% neutral grey there is a very slight yellow green tint on half the scree on the right side very even top to bottom fading to the left, maybe the screen or maybe just reflection effect like the wall paint on the top half of the tree image on the right. I have been looking for some good tips on B&W printing It seems I have found them with you, you have a new subscriber.

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - an eternal problem with B&W and video [one more reason I still dislike it ;-) ] I was very aware that trying to talk about colour casts on video, given my office lighting, was potentially an issue... What you've seen are also likely glitches in my editing as much as any lighting issues - sorry they distracted a bit from the content.

[@davidromano2421]

I've been through the same process, using my spectro to measure the neutrality of the grayscale and by some trial and error found some color wheel settings to achieve the flatest result I could. I'd say it was worth the effort, but the effect was not huge. The neutrality with my ICC profile was nearly as good as with the ABW mode, and both were really good already. So, there wasn't much to be gained. Worth the effort though.

[@KeithCooper]

Yes - the effectiveness of this varies greatly with printer/paper choices

[@TrashTheLens]

This made me wonder: how do black and white modes (used competently!) on inkjets stack up against traditional, silver-based darkroom prints and against black and white printed on ra-4, in terms of neutrality/metamerism and dmax? My guess would be the silver should be the most neutral, but less dmax than inkjet, while ra-4 would be the worst in both categories, but I never had a chance to compare the three side by side.

[@KeithCooper]

Yes - a media style [and surface finish] that works for one may not be optimal for another. My experience with B&W printing is from another century, so I simply don't trust any of my personal recollections/perceptions from then ;-) Coming up with a meaningful comparison would not be a trivial matter - coming up with a comparison which had to battle some of the deeply ingrained opinions in this area might be even more of an issue ;-)

[@ddsdss256]

My understanding was that the default for my P900 in Epson Print Layout was in fact "darker" (but why?). On your advice, I usually use ABW rather than ICC profiles when printing B&W and I'm generally happy with the results using the "darker" setting (they closely match my expectations). I do sometimes alter the tint in EPL, although I usually apply any WB and/or tint adjustments in post prior to printing. There are certainly cases where I want at least a subtle tint, as a "neutral" B&W image can look a bit sterile (digital images often look a bit sterile in color as well). I'm trying to make art, not achieve "technical perfection" and often, a film look or attempt to simulate another analog process achieves the desired result (often quite abstract, so "accuracy" is an irrelevant term). That said, there are many cases when I want to create a plausible-looking scene, and Real World Color Management is in my "to read/study" queue. I'm sure that will help my understanding, but it's going to be a daunting task to master this complex subject! Thanks for helping to foster that knowledge.

[@KeithCooper]

Glad it's of help! BTW I have raised the issue of why 'darker' is the default for ABW - answer came there none (yet!)

[@len.whistler]

I think the color variation is due to the LED light versus the 4K light source.....the reflected light. not the actual color of the print.

[@KeithCooper]

The 4k source is LED based too. It's just better quality lighting ;-) The reflected light is what people perceive as the colour of the print. I can measure the reflectance spectrum of the print at different 'greys' to see how it will interact with the spectral output of a particular illuminant. This is part of what I'm doing if I create an icc profile with a custom illuminant [discussed in my recent profiling video] I've looked at the spectral responses of different lighting several times and there is a massive variation in the spectral output of commonly available lighting these days. The approach here is about reducing the perception of a colour tint in supposedly B&W images - depending on the lighting, that may or may not be a trivial matter.

[@jpdj2715]

Women seeing something you don't - the general approach to colour photography is to split the humanly visible light spectrum into three zones, roughly red, green and blue. Because that is how humans see, right? Well, not too fast. Many people (men) are what I call "colour weak" because they can only see colour in two spectral bands. Colour weak and colour blind are generally well known. BUT there are women who see colour in 4 spectral bands and their sons generally are colour weak (2 bands). We can deduce that the genes coding for the cones in the retina are on the X chromosome of which men have one (X) and women have two (X). It seems the norm is to have three bands on one (each) X chromosome, and the deviation is to have two (or less) spectral bands facilitated on one X chromosome. Probably if a 2 and 3 band X come together there is no big issue. When a two X chromosome and another 2 X chromosome come together in a woman, this might result in 4 spectral bands.Yes, it's rare. This being tied to the X chromosome is not too weird as the anatomy of the brain is also on it. And the retina is close to the brain and highly "wired". Anyhow, if we 3-banders want to be taught about correct colour, we probably have to find a 4 bander.

[@KeithCooper]

Quite true. Thanks - the video was going to be a long one even without going into all the reasons behind this ;-) Karen turned down the opportunity for a guest spot in this video... :-)

[@davidemassussi3735]

Great video Keith. I’ve read the article a pair of month ago and the video clarify (and simplify) the general process. Now my problem is: I don’t have a spectrophotometer for taking measurements, but I have a Fuji mirrorless, an Epson V800 calibrated scanner and… my eyes! Is it better to use the camera or the scanner? Or none?

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks The camera records [after a fashion] what the print looks like in a particular light, whilst the scanner measures what it looks like under the illumination of the scanner - two quite different aspects of the print. I'd perhaps use the scanner for checking linearisation and the camera for looking at unwanted tints?

[@davidemassussi3735]

@@KeithCooper ok I got the idea. I’ve tried with both and with the scanner it’s easier because the grey pattern is illuminated evenly. With the camera you have to deal with RAW conversion (is it linear and accurate in the colors? I don’t know) and if you redo the measurement another day it’s difficult to recreate the same conditions. But in both cases I was able to see roughly LAB numbers that corresponded to the tint I was seeing in the print.

[@hervem4523]

Thank you for this video Keith. But do you think there is a way to fix unwanted tints on my Canon G650 printer ? Since there is no colour toning adjustment in the printer settings on Mac OS. Do I have to adjust each picture in Lightroom before printing it ? Thank you very much for any advice about it.

[@KeithCooper]

Not hat I know of - these low end Canon printers have effectively broken colour management on Macs. See my discussion of B&W printing in the main [written] G550 review.

[@alonzohollingsworth7712]

I use Affinity Photo and Photolab 6 to post process images and have a very entry level printer (Canon iP8720) I purchased since I'm new to printing images. I shoot raw with a Canon 90D DSLR. After process and begin to print, the print preview shows an obvious greenish tint. The results of printing is the same but not as harsh. I select the software to control and turnoff color management of the driver. Any advice to what I may be doing wrong to obtain a true black and white image? Update: I tried letting the printer to manage the print and the preview was promising but after printing the image had an obvious magenta tint.

[@KeithCooper]

True B&W is difficult with basic printers, without custom paper profiles, and even then can end up with a colour tint. This video is about one technique to try and reduce it - but there will always be issues with B&W and basic printers.

[@MoD_Master_Of_Disaster_]

On the Canon website for the Pro 1000, I once read that the Canon B/W mode uses the sRGB colourspace. How much will this influence the printing results? Or are b/w prints limited in their tones that much that it might just not make a difference? When processing my photos, I have the choice of converting them to b/w in CaptureOne, or use NIK Filters in Affinty, or use DxO's FilmPack 6. All three could (if you want) deliver an intentional tinge in the end result. On condition you're working with the original RGB file in aRGB or ProphotoRGB colourspace. Unless the source file is already grayscale (not sure if any of the Affinity/Photoshop plugins would work with grayscale files).

[@KeithCooper]

Had an interesting chat with someone this morning about the sRGB/gamma 2.2 differences. They are small enough that I'd not be able to tell from a typical test scan on a paper See the graph in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB It's unknown whether Epson actually expect G2.2 or sRGB for input to ABW Also, I can't recall specific Canon info about their own B&W mode? I'm in the process of trying to get actual hard info on this, but I'm not holding my breath... It's a mixed bag with G2.2 support - I do have alternative A98 versions of my B&W test images just in case...

[@MoD_Master_Of_Disaster_]

@@KeithCooper I had posted the link to the Canon article I referred to, but that got deleted by YT. If you want I can email the link to you, but this is the part that caught my eye: Quote from the canon site: ------------------------------------- "Important When the Black and White Photo Print check box is checked, the printer driver processes image data as sRGB data. In this case, actual colors printed may differ from those in the original image data. When using the grayscale printing function to print Adobe RGB data, convert the data to sRGB data using an application software. Note During Black and White Photo Print, inks other than black ink may be used as well."

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - if you could send me a link it would be helpful - I'm trying to nail this one down foe Epson and Canon Fortunately, the differences in real world prints is very small

[@MoD_Master_Of_Disaster_]

@@KeithCooper email has been sent.

[@rolex-js9nk]

what is the canon software used to correct colour tint? is it downloadable or is it built into thet printer software?

[@KeithCooper]

If the printer driver supports it, that is where it will be - otherwise you need to do it in a photo editor

[@MarkGilvey]

Hi Keith, I've seen you before, I can't remember what group. Just discovered your channel. I have an EPSON R3000 and I can't get the printer settings to save with the Advanced B&W settings. It keeps reverting back to ACCUPhoto HP2. Any ideas?

[@KeithCooper]

Saving settings where? And what system? - remember I only get to test on Macs and not always current ones either

[@MarkGilvey]

@@KeithCooper I'm on a Mac also, an iMac running Sonoma. I'm referring to the Print Options where you can change it from ACCUPHOTO HP2 to Advanced B&W. HTH

[@KeithCooper]

I've never heard of nor seen 'accuphoto hp2' I'm afraid This is one to ask on the printing forum at dpreview.com Years of Mac use means I'm updating nothing to MacOS 14 until I need to - especially with such an old printer.@@MarkGilvey

[@river3808]

I've got a very basic Canon G3000 and my current problem is this green/bluish tint on my 4x6inch prints. I print using Lightroom and still trying to find out what the problem is.

[@KeithCooper]

Colour management... You need to be printing with the correct icc profile for the printer/paper combination However, such things are rarely available for basic printers - nothing much can be done - maybe adjust a few sliders in the print driver settings, but it's very hit and miss

[@river3808]

@@KeithCooper I’ll give it a go. Thanks, Keith.

[@ibendover4817]

I'd bet people would be willing to pay an arm and a leg for printers that just automagically print what is shown on screen. I know I would after a week of trying to fix bluish prints and tossing away $40 worth of baryta paper.

[@KeithCooper]

Yes - I wish I could offer simple steps as well. Most of these problems can be fixed - sometimes though it is just the printer/paper isn't up to the job for B&W