Flat lifters Vs rollers. Spend cash for power not parts!

In this,episode 26 of PowerTec 10, DV explains how buying a roller cam over a flat tappet may not be the best bang for the buck. In this video you get to see how you could use a flat tappet and with the cash saved get a 100 lbs-ft of extra torque by spending the cost difference else where

[@jdc2433]

FINALLY!!!! A complete explanation with all the input data shown. It is so frustrating to watch educational videos that don't show all the data. Thanks a bunch DV !!

[@frankglasgow]

I went with a roller cam due to the cost of a flat tappet cam failure after 25 minutes of running, which happened to me with a mild Comp Cam and the supplied lifters and springs. Machine shop installed it and I followed the break in precisely, engine fired immediately. Cam was covered with moly grease. Lifter failed badly. $1700 later to repair all the cam trash in the bearings and cylinder wall scratches. Couldn't afford another flat tappet cam failure. Installed a Howard's roller cam for my 351m and Boss roller rockers 1.7 ratio. Had the heads milled to accept adjustable stud mount setup. Thanks David, your videos are truly the best and I trust your expertise.

[@dreece2000]

Don’t forget to add zinc to flat tappet, they don’t add in oil anymore from my understanding

[@frankglasgow]

@@dreece2000 it was in the Maxima break in oil. 2x ZDDP. Machine shop I use recommended it. They build race engines for specific classes that have to run a flat tappet cam.

[@johnny0454]

@frankglasgow I've heard you shouldn't use ZDDP for break-in, it's too slick, and the lifters won't rotate properly if it's too high of a concentration. Also, shouldn't use synthetic during break-in for the same reason. Break 'em in with regular dino oil, then use the ZDDP after everything is mated-in. They add the ZDDP to break-in oils because, mistakenly, that's what the masses believe they want, so they cater to the market or they wouldn't sell any, even though it's miss information for the break-in of flat tappets. What do you think about it David?

[@dreece2000]

@@johnny0454 you could very well be right, I would like to better understand this

[@gordocarbo]

@@dreece2000 Some do. VR-1 racing does, even Mobil 1 15-50 syn Skip diesel oil its not what it once was. No need to add extra stuff to the right oils.

[@exploranator]

I REALLY enjoy David's unique pointer. It really helps with the presentations!

[@billymanilli]

Kinda funny... I was always a "Chevy guy" growing up... and especially a "v8" guy... Well... when my ex got her first car (a 4 cylinder 87 Mustang coupe), we put an '88 t-bird turbocoupe engine in it. Long story short.. I had a LOT of fun playing with and modding that thing (it was surprisingly FAST) and I had to learn how to set up a "slider" cam and followers... "Strange stuff" for a guy who was used to building SBCs his entire life... lol I had a solid lifter "oval port" head from a local ministock guy on it, and I put an Engle 111 cam in... Anyways, that was when I started to think about things like the topic of this video. Thanks again, DV!

[@markhatch1267]

Recently discovered your channel. Much thanks for sharing your wisdom from a life time of building engines. I worked with my dad building high performance engines in the 80's & 90's. He was a mushroom lifter advocate for weekend drag racers and road course racers.

[@arthurrodesiler3109]

I think Castrol GTX Classic 20W-50 Conventional Motor Oil, 5 Quart Jug with stock mufflers with a carb is still the cheapest way to go. On my 1981 Z28 with a 454 and a solid lifter can with turbo mufflers and 2 and a 1/2 turbo mufflers and mandel bent pipe which I build my own I raced it with open header with 10 in slicks and then threw my mufflers on and only lost a tenth going threw the mufflers. I got tired of all the work to remove a short pipe just to use open header got to be a pain as you get older. Since am just bracket racing a tenth is not worth the work on a street car and drag racing it a few times a year. This was 30 years ago. The turbo mufflers which only cost 12 bucks a piece when everybody else was putting on those 200.00 dollars a muffler which when cap up lost more than a tenth compared to my cheap setup. You no the name which was the rage...Flow Masters. Marketed BS there. My turbo mufflers with 2 and a 1/2 in and out both in the center of the muffler. Extreme Oil is ok if you can afford it. I just broke my crane cam in 35 years ago with what they gave in the cam kit and after 2 15 minutes runs between 3,000 rpm and rev up to 5,000 rpm and let it cool down a day then run it another 15 minutes after it was warmed up both times was about 20 to 25 minutes each time. I always looked at my lifter bores and ran a ball hone up and down a few times to get them cleaned up and helps remove the sharp edge at the bottom of the lifter bore I never lost a cam doing it this way. I would take a lot of time with a hand grinder to remove the sharp edges on all the lobes both sides. After the break in I ran Pennzoil 20w 50 w oil and still do to this day and the engine still runs good. Next oil change I will go with Castrol GTX Classic 20W-50 Conventional Motor Oil, 5 Quart Jug. Probably be a mistake since I have always used Pennzoil and never had a oil problem over 50 years. Today the real problem is trying to buy a good solid lifter. I have 1 new set from crane cams I have had for 35 years still in the box in the house. Never seen cold weather...lol I have seen many of comp solid lifter and when you put 2 of them up to the light you can't see the slightly curved on the flat tappet lifters. I told 2 guys you will wipe the came out. In 2 hours both had wrecked there cams and both had wiped out 2 lifter on each cam on each engine. I have found some solid lifters that were made out of tool steel had the curve on them from pictures but the 700.00 price tag was a turn off. Cant't find a good solid lifter today that is not a least 400.00 to 500.00 For that price my as well go with a roller cam with a bushing not rollers. Needle bearing lifter don't last either. What kind of solid lifter do you use today and made by who? Thanks for your videos David. If I seen them 40 years ago they be hard to beat me. Always ran crane cams. Was sad when he sold out. I would always buy my pushrods after I found the right length which was usually was 60 to 100th shorter than stock to keep the geometry right. I always ran the stock rocker arm just grind the slot so it had about .040 gap at full lift and at rest. Tried crane roller lifters from crane and spent many hours trying to get the tip to ride on the center of the valve head. I would heat the guide plate up to slightly red to bend them to line up with the center of the valve. They would be in the center but never right on the valve. Seem to be off either on the right side or left side of valve. After I got them as even as possible I ran the car and it still ran 10.30. Brought it home and 2 were off again so I fixed them and gave it another try and it still ran 10.30. Brought it back home and 2 others were off. Took them off put my orginal stock rocker arms on with new guide plates. It still ran 10.30. I sold the roller rocker arms. I believe the stock original heads were not machine good enough for roller rocker. As you looked at a stock rocker arm when it started to push on the valves the stock rockers moved right and left so it would not push the valve stem to one side and cause side loading on the valve and valve guide casing friction. The stock stamped rocker arm would center itself and I believe it lost some lift do to this. The stock rocker arm which I liked was closer to the bottom of the rocker arm making less rocker arm more movement which was 7/16. From what I could see the stock rocker arm centered itself better than a roller rocker arm and the roller rocker arm sat up higher on the rocker stud causing more flex plus not center the valve better put more side load on the valve guide which didn't help anything and in the long turn would wear the guide out faster. Everybody told me I needed roller rockers with a higher lifter cam. People would by a bigger cam then either bend a pushrod or punch out the stock rocker arm at the pushrod. The instruction said to check it and grind the slot longer for the cam. I guess not to many people read before they do stuff and just buy roller rocker arms. I was a tool and die maker so grinding the slot out was a easy job for me. Do one side with the valve up grind out as needed then take a measurement with vernier caliper and make the other 15 the same then do one with the valve down and grind that one for .040th for clearance I made and do the other 15 stock rocker arms. Put all the rocker arms with standard 7/16 fine thread nut and set it all up and check with a .040th wire and mirror. Only a few need a little more grinding. Once set up I used the stock nut which is hard on the threads. Once valve clearance was set I would use the regular nut on top of the self tightening nut which always backs out. By putting a regular nut on top of the other stop that problem. Run it a few time adjust once and had to do it again. I would check them but the double nut that stopped the nut from losing up ever again. I tried the other ones were you do not use the factory nut and set it up then tighten the allen screw bolt up in the middle but seems to losening up over time. The regular nut on top of the factor nut never backed off. Just had to watch when you tighten the top nut that the bottom one does not move. I ground a wrench to stop that if if it started to do that. Sorry I got long carried away here......lol

[@P_RO_]

@Arthur Rodesiler Once upon a mis-spent youth where I always drove like a madman I was having lubrication issues with my SBF engines. Asking around everyone advised to use a different oil, happily suggesting their preference. So in essence everything was said to be great and said to be crap, which told me I'd have to figure it out myself. I'd try an oil for a week then after a session of craziness I'd return and drain the oil while it was still hot. Much to my surprise all the standard motor oils drained with about the viscosity of water. Now I understood why I was having lubrication problems! And one of the worst offenders was Castrol GTX 20w50. I switched to racing oils for many years which probably saved me quite a few engines until I discovered that Castrol HD worked equally well at a much lower cost. Too bad they quit making it but I don't do crazy anymore so I can do fine without it. I also paid heed to the cars coming to my shop, and in them the GTX did seem OK under normal driving conditions. Viscosity held up, no excessive wear and no sludge found. There were no synthetics back then nor any of today's close-bearing-tolerance engines needing thinner oils so this knowledge may not apply to everyone but your 454 will be much happier with a better oil. Try it yourself and see.

[@johnny0454]

The poly-lock type nuts were loosening up on you because you did not change the studs, they require special poly-lock studs that are machined flat on the tip, unlike the stock type rocker studs, so the poly-locks don't loosen on you. Poly-lock types never work on stock-type rocker studs. Additionally, you can only use the stock stover lock nuts a few times before they wear out, because of the pinched thread in the cone portion of the nut. I bet if you had used new stover nuts they wouldn't have been loosening on you, but your double nut method seemed to work fine.

[@donaldgilbreath4200]

Thank you for this video. I have a 85 Chevy C-20. That I want to rebuild. These stats are perfect for what I want. I want tons of torque for towing. She already is a towing monster, but, there is always room for improvement.

[@gordocarbo]

TOrque cams dont really benefit much from being roller. USualy last a long time due to milder specs

[@kenbelle101]

Great video as always. Like many people, (a lot of us) we are experiencing many cam failures with flat tappet cams. I just had one with a BBC. All checks were done and tested before startup. It failed anyway. At 64 it was not my first rodeo. I started purchasing your books many years ago. I trust what you say. I just retired from a world wide company and our plant is the number one supplier of engines in North America. I need someone to prove and change my mind that the consumer is buying junk from the cam companies related to flat tappets. I understand you have a close relationship to these companies, However, Your opinion could sure help us consumers and help the cam companies reputations. I think it would be a must watch video and very popular at this time. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[@johnny0454]

Your theory can't be disproved because it's true. With the move to offshore manufacturing decades ago, metallurgy has drastically gone downhill. When we started taxing our corporations more, in a backfired attempt at curbing income inequality, all it did was force manufacturing overseas; we have been funneling money to China for decades. The corporations will find a way to make the same money no matter what, no matter how much we try to regulate them at home. Now, China is a global threat because we made them rich with our stupid bottom-up approach here at home; top-down economics work, we should have stuck with it and we wouldn't be slipping down from our previous position as the global superpower; and, we'd still have a middle class. We were number one globally, and now I don't think we're even in the top 3, the rest of the world is laughing at our ignorance. We need to make it easier for corporations here, not harder, the wealth and standard of living trickles down to everyone, from the top down; we need the manufacturing to come back home to spread the wealth here, amongst our people, and not overseas. The lack of quality you have been experiencing for decades is the direct result of overtaxing our own corporations at home, they had no choice but to move their manufacturing overseas because of Democrat policy over the last 40-50 years. Now instead of Americans benefiting from our corporations, the Chinese communists are, and have been for a very long time. We used to spread freedom, equality, and democracy around the world; but soon, China will start spreading their communism around the world and we won't be in a position to stop it, especially when they have allies like N. Korea and Russia, all of which have nukes. America and our allies don't appear to stand a chance at this point because Democrats have ran our economies into the ground.

[@kenbelle101]

​@@johnny0454 You made my day! 100% on the spot! My brother-in-law explained NAFTA to me several years ago. I have talked to law makers who didn't know or understand it. He moved 7 plants to Mexico. Set up robotics and machinery with a staff of engineers. Johnny, None were in the red and all money makers. Why? Return on investment and cheaper labor. The Democrats wage war on businesses and I ask their supporters ( When has a poor person given you a job that offers you a good living?) You just get a blank look. We got to wake up and speak up!

[@gordocarbo]

@@kenbelle101 We can thank the Carter scandal for that one.

[@george1la]

I just went through replacing my cam 4 times. I only solved the lifter cam problem by a video on You Tube concerning the Diamond Like Finish (DLC) that Comp Cams just came out with. Luckily, I bought from Summit Racing. They agreed to exchange the last cam lifters for DLC coated lifters. They are only about $15.00 more. DLC is a plasma spray that is almost as hard as a diamond and since a carbon composite is also very slippery. I had no problem with break in with break in oil and DLC lifters. Then I had blown head gaskets. While I had the engine apart I pulled every lifter and looked at the base. They looked like when they came out of the box. I looked at many of the cam lobes and they looked like they were merely polished to a mirror finish with no wear. Obviously, the DLC lifters just polish the cam. I suggest everyone buy the DLC lifters and eliminate the quality control problems that are obvious. Comp Cams had an outside company test DLC. On the Spintron no matter how fast they ran it and no matter how much spring pressure it did not care. They abuse break in and it did not care. Mr. Vizard, could you please test and do a show on the DLC coating? I have done a lot of comments to help people not go through what I have gone through especially if you are in business. As it is I have not had a vehicle I could drive for 8 weeks now because of this problem. Suddenly with DLC it worked properly. What if I had them in the first place.

[@mikedaugharty5544]

Thank you very much David and have a great day dyno test session with all your stuff there thank you Sir look forward to the new programs

[@awittypilot8961]

With due respect sir....I've been building engines since I was 13....now 67. Until they got rid of MOS2 you could sometimes break in a cam and not lose any lobes. Not likely these days. The wear on the flat tappet is FAR higher and the rev speed is greatly reduced. I'm running a 364 cu in ford and it is reliable and very fast. I know I could get a bajillionth of a hp and a few ft lbs but I can drive my car all I want and it has been very reliable. There's a reason most all car manufacturers have gone to roller. Oil temps are down as well. The valve train drag is significantly lower with roller. I tore up 2 complete motors trying to break in a flat tappet and finally went with roller. Best thing I have done so far.....Plus we put our cars up for the winter here and the cam/lifters get dry....I prefer roller for many reasons...number one is reliability

[@davidbaldwin1591]

David is a racer. My father was one. The only thing they care about is winning, and usually in a class where the rules are tight, and you need every trick. It's obvious a roller lasts longer.

[@HotRodsHowTos]

What roller lifters are you using? I’ve got an early model 302 that I’m “freshening up” and I was planning to change cams. Given all of the current flat tappet failures, I was considering a roller conversion. But now, I’m reading stories of link bars breaking and destroying cams. And I’m not talking about the cheap ebay specials. I’m talking about high dollar name brand ones.

[@awittypilot8961]

@@HotRodsHowTos I'm running Lunati's on top of a muththumper roller comp cam stainless roller rockers. The biggest one I could get in the hole....fraid it's going to break the windshield. 351W .60 over 11:1 trickflow heads with 210cc runners air gap HEI. 2200lb 65 mercury comet with tremec and 373 gears. Very quick street car. Smokes em all the way through 2nd. Real fun bomber. 3500 reliable miles so far. 8" rear...scared it will break the gear if I put real tires on it. hehe It hits 7500 faster than you can stop it.

[@dennisrobinson8008]

@@awittypilot8961 Excellent combination. You must be well over 500hp.

[@df5849]

.... that's not true at all, I got a sbc 350 sitting less than 9 feet from me that says your incorrect.... flat tappet cam lifters w/ an ultradyne hyd cam that lasted 24yrs not one lick of problems, after about 210k miles a ring land broke from fighting a semi sideswiping me trying to get unhooked from him... gave it all it had, but I got unhooked and was towing an Rv behind me... carb'd and at high altitude East of the 4 corners monument area Nov 3rd 2023, and check the altitude out and being tuned for sea level to slightly higher, got off hiway, checked everything in the dark.... broke distributor shaft due to all the slamming up and down having gear drive sent that to the distributor, swapped distributor fired right up, no cam wear no lifter failure.... drove all the way to Amarillo TX... got to daughter's house, pull all the plugs found #3/#5 had popped gasket perfectly between cylinders.. #5 plug fouled out... grabbed a northern plug gapped it and she fired right up... still ran a Lil weird, so popped off driverside head... broken top ring land... no cylinder scarring, pulled out ... pulled heads, found bad gasket, pulled cam & lifters... not a wear problem any wear... no banged up valves in the head either.... built the motor when my son was born 25yrs ago... most of its life its been pushing a 52yr old 6000lb burb with 4.10s daily and approx 50k miles yrly just to go to work and home no without adding any other driving ... 3 trips across the USA on it... easily 200k on motor, but 3k+ monthly miles it got an oil change 1st of each month.... so i call BS on the wearing out...

[@ronnielewis1862]

Thank you for so much information, met a guy i built an engine 30 years ago i didnt even rember but my reptitation still stands true as knowing how to build good hp engines😊😊

[@ronnielewis1862]

I learned so much from you, I advise everyone to watch to the end 😊😊😊😊❤

[@nanab256]

I can't belive such a channel with such a huge amount of knowledge have only 23k subs

[@johnny0454]

It's a brand new channel, only about two months old. He had a previous one that was young also but he had to start over again. Help spread the word.

[@natelorimer8567]

Mike Jones explained this on speed talk . Smart guy

[@HarryTGarlandIII]

Mr. Vizard I love what you do, keep it up and you make me think!

[@mikecondoluci53]

HI DAVID HOPE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY HAD A HAPPY THANKSGIVING, THANK YOU FOR ANOTHER GREAT VIDEO

[@shanedavis9309]

Great information Mr David. Thanks for these videos keep them coming.

[@hbarends5483]

A wealth of knowledge sir. Thank you for sharing!!!

[@Scarlet_1971_cuda]

Thank you again for sharing your vast knowledge with us.

[@flyingdebree3094]

Love how you explain things definitely learned a lot

[@strattuner]

i've built a lot of racing engines for the boys in the hood,i've never used a roller design camshaft as they need super high pressure to offset their weight over a flat tappet lifter, which has worked successfully for over a 100 years,i use and spend the money on isky and other high dollar and high precision pieces,i hate rework,use what works,spend the money on the good stuff,made in america ,machined in america,and american companies they are not going anywhere,i use isky for 50 years,never had a problem with them,spend the money and use DAVIDS vast knowledge of mixing parts and machining for win win,thanks for the expertise MR VIZARD,WHEN I'VE GONE AS FAR as i can,i use your knowledge to go further

[@bradz2407]

David the HP & TQ numbers are revered in the spreadsheet for the 355 ci engine from what is shown in the Torque Master program.

[@reason2gether]

True, but with current Flat tappet cam issues what they are, it is pointless to risk the cam failure, and you may as well go with the roller cam.

[@reason2gether]

Besides, what if you buy a stroker crank/rotating assembly with the "money saved" by not buying a roller cam and then you still have a flat tappet cam failure which wipes out the savings? I personally always go for maximum durability and forsake the extra horsepower. That is the best way to save $$ in my opinion.

[@DavidVizard]

Reason2gether - follow my advice and you will have at leaast a 100,000 mile valve train!

[@toadamine]

@@DavidVizard nope, the oil is different, you have to buy special oil that has the ZDDP in it... modern oil (in USA anyway) doesn't have it anymore and isn't suitable for flat tappet cams.

[@Adamu98]

@@toadamineshell Rotella diesel oil has enough zinc in it. Also utg did a video about that. Turns out after break in you really don't need a zinc oil.

[@toadamine]

@@Adamu98 I heard they took it 9ut of the diesel oil also... i was using that for a long time s8nce they removed it from the regular oil.

[@pmd7771969]

We used to run solid flat tappet cams that made more power then hydrolic lifters before the roller stuff came out. 50s 60s 70s racing.

[@gordocarbo]

Started mid to late 80s same story. Solid flat tappet cars were usually the strongest. Dailied many a musclecar back then long commutes etc and never had a cam go bad. ANything more than 230@ 050 I prefer solids....hyd just arent the same upstairs hard to put into words.

[@Bbba724]

Mr Vizard, Have you ever studied or considered the Ford FE engine? I am a huge fan of your work. I am also a Ford FE engine fan. The weight of this engine is in the fair equivalent of a small block with the inclusion of an aluminum intake. The surprise is that the heads and a well designed aluminum intake will punch well above its weight if you do the one thing that the Factory would not do. Put a cam with some hair on its chest. The could have used their own 427 LR cam, the D cam in a 390 based engine is race only, but the solid cam for the 427 425 hp engine in a 396 ci FE is a fire breather. When you can will you please consider this? It fits your calculations very, if not perfectly well. Thank you sir and any data you can share will be appreciated. Engines I have build have been banned from circle track. After track

[@buchanansleeve7427]

Thank you sir for your knowledge. Very good video!

[@mikelaumaillier9271]

Thank you, Mr. Vizard, for all the work you put into producing your videos. In your professional opinion, are the lifter with the oiling holes in the lobe surface worth it or is this just a marketing gimmick ? Best Regards - Mike

[@dannoyes4493]

These videos are great. Thank you so much.

[@johnhennery8820]

As always another great video thank you David I learned a lot again as uesuel

[@v1-vr-rotatev2-vy_vx31]

Did I hear 8 to 1 compression? Builders are using 15 to 1 compression now to get that plus 1,000 horsepower. And total advanced timing of only 16 to 20° to be compatible with pump gas.

[@MrEqtube]

Dynamic compression was mentioned. Not a static compression.

[@johnny0454]

You'd be better off with lower compression and greater spark advance if you're going to run pump gas. The greater compression equates to greater pumping losses, reducing your VE. Furthermore, the examples given in this video are not racing engines, they are pretty much stock with a 70 year old platform on purpose; for classic, daily drivers. Your comment isn't really relevant to the subject at hand here. These engines are basic built and VERY budget-friendly; in fact, the whole point of this video is what the average joe can do on a budget in his garage on a weekend, it's a bang for your buck comparison. His point was that for the same money as upgrading to a roller cam, you can get a stroker crank instead. You're trying to compare two, totally different things here that aren't really comparable.

[@jeanlawson9133]

I like your thinking..😎

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

Despite the fancy oil package supplements, the great flat-tappet mystery problems continue... True even, for piston aircraft. It's as if some inexplicable event occurred in the force.

[@Underdog72B]

I'm convinced that FT failures are about the quality of parts more than oil. I have two separate decades old Comp Cams still going but one I got around 12 years ago lost a lobe. Since then I have been using Howards and no issues with 3 of them. Two solid and one Hyd. My 421 race engine has a Howards Solid FT 4/7 swap with 1.65 full roller rockers. Works out to .610 lift. Not just the cost of the cam and lifters. Roller would need other more expensive springs/retainers, less ratio rockers and likely pushrods. Bracket deal so if it's a tenth or so slower than the ultimate, so what. I can fix it with shoe polish !!

[@franklynpertuz7669]

Awesome mechanic i thank you so much for sharing your knowledge very grateful for it that's awesome

[@edge2sword186]

How about going back to Mushroom tappets or even Shell type lifters with longer pushrods getting a lifter that does BOTH ?

[@ldnwholesale8552]

Watched about 3 min. Flat tappet cams much above the OEM versions used decades ago are on the point of failure. The reason the OEM have all gone hydraulic roller. Yes initially you may gain a small bit of lift. But any gains are offset by the amount of duration as well as lift you gain. For street engines in theory all you need is a nice flat tappet cam. But the last engine I stripped had done about 5000 miles and the lifter were showing signs of dishing. Reputable cam, lifters and springs and hi zinc synthetic oil. Cam was one step up from a peformance OEM cam. Racing engines? All the b/s you have to go through on initial start up so as NOT to lose a cam in 10 min. I have had them last years but even then the springs recomended were too soft, probably lucky but I had to go 20lb extra on the seat to make full use of the cam. That alone made a more useable 6-700 rpm. Usual stainless performance valves, retainers and rockers. The recomended springs may have been fine with Ti valves. Engine I am doing currently [Boss style 347] was going to be solid flat tappet but recomedations wee bed in the cam with only outer springs etc. Too hard. And will never make the same power,, and the engine will live between 4000 and 7500. Yes it cost me a grand more but ultimatly money saved

[@charlescrockett6208]

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON A GROVE IN THE LIFTER BORE TO FEE OIL TO THE CAM SURFACE? COMP HAS A TOOL FOR THIS OR DID..

[@DavidVizard]

Charles, 100% recomend this as it does a better job than the hole in the lifter but both together ? Better yet!

[@charlescrockett6208]

@@DavidVizard THANKS

[@waynesaunders3828]

Hello David At the end of this video you mentioned that the lifter has to rotate, I had a bucket lifter that rotated and it would wear in the middle like a triangle, so you had a step at the top and bottom and being smaller in diameter than the middle. It was just the one lifter that I replaced several times.the only way I found was to change the block. Different engine now, I have a camshaft that has been really scored on the lobes it is a cast iron cam with flat lifters that have worn out by having a radius cut into them from the cam, but they have a flat cut down one side of them so that two lifters rub on this flat and they will not rotate in the block. I have purchased some hydraulik lifters that are smaller in diameter that I intend to fit into the worn out flat sided lifters which are solid. I was going to press fit them together, but after seeing this video should I let them rotate inside the flat old lifters. Also your computer model is calculating on the volume of the cylinder, is this correct. So it could be possible for it to work just on cylinder volume, and give you a cam profile from this cylinder volume and build around that.(Build an engine around the cylinder bore stroke volume. ) Thank you for these interesting videos.

[@daledavies2334]

Regarding the costs, the flat tappet lifters can probably reuse the original push rods while the roller lifters are taller and require a shorter push rod. All part of the costs incurred.

[@dennisrobinson8008]

A 350 cubic inch motor has a head with 210cfm@.4" and 260cfm@.5". Two camshafts with same duration and lsa but different lift. Cam #1 220@.05", 112lsa and .410" lift. Cam #2 220@.05", 112 lsa and .575" lift. How much more power does cam #2 make?

[@danielhehir1332]

Thank you again Mr Vizard God bless you in Jesus name

[@rightsidelanechoice7702]

That makes perfect sense David.

[@FofM1ke]

@DavidVizard can you do an episode on the Turbo Ford 2.3 engine from the 80’s??? .. SVO and Tbird TURBOCOUPE ??

[@inscoredbz]

Finally, someone else that is smart enough to see the difference in lifer designs and understand how they work. Yeah, the roller cam looks more aggressive just because of the lifter design. A big ass .904" lifter will take a quicker ramp than an ..842" Chevy. The only real gain with a roller is friction, and shitty oil will wear out a flat tappet cam.

[@johnny0454]

If you notice in the video, the roller made more power; even though the flat tappet cam has the potential to have "more area under the curve" it's negligible and is more than offset by the reduction in friction of a roller. His point of this video was only that with the cost savings, one could also do a stroker crank, that is the only thing that makes it a worthwhile choice. Also, you're looking at much cooler oil temps and much longer oil life with a roller setup. I go 5k miles on roller cam engines but no more than 3k on a flat tappet, that's almost double. When you factor in longevity, the roller cam is actually cheaper lol. 200k miles is easy with a roller, with a flat tappet 100k is pushing it, and then with 40% less oil changes- that all adds up.

[@inscoredbz]

@@johnny0454 I agree with everything you said except the roller lifters are reconditioned to be changed out every 20k miles because of roller bearing failure. I know the stock roller cam engines can go a long time (like you said) but recently I've been reading about a lot of hydraulic roller lifter failure. If course with the shitty flat tappet lifters that needs the face reground right out of the box and shitty oil it's a crap shoot too.

[@johnny0454]

@@inscoredbz I think the problem with these aftermarket parts is the metallurgy, even when they are manufactured in the U.S. the steel still comes from China.

[@1crazypj]

Could you get whoever is doing the post production to make the background music actually background . As is, compared to your speaking it's way too loud

[@robertenglish5313]

Hi, I find your videos very informative... Just a question... What's your view on the big split duration cams like the thumpr series and the bootlegger series cams. While the have a tighter LSA are they overdoing the exhaust duration? Thanks

[@pmd7771969]

The roller cam will make more power and allow the engine to rev higher, need less oil, and less chance of failure. Most oils today are made for roller engines. Yes they cost more but can generate 150 more hp vs a low rpm hydrolic lifter.

[@johnny0454]

Well said, I fully agree. They don't even cost more when you factor in longevity. Really, in today's day and age, with crappy metallurgy running rampant, there is no reason to not go roller. Add in the bonus of much cooler oil temps, and longer oil life, you can't go wrong. Flat tappets are, at least, a century and a half old tech. Does anybody here still watch a black-and-white TV, or even a tube type TV for that matter, it's kind of the same thing. Forward progress marches on lol.

[@The0utmode]

Would a cam with 0.430 Intake lift 0.444 exhaust lift. 240 intake duration 249 exhaust duration and a LSA of 106 be a good low rpm 305 bored out 60 over with a 3.5 crank 9.1 compression cam. Or can the profile be made better i have a stock torque converter on th350 that shifts a little stiffer than stock with a set of 273 rear end gears and 26.9 inch outside diameter tires. goal is 300 foot pounds of torque and good gas millage.

[@donbrutcher4501]

Assuming an aftermarket block, is there much to be gained in a small or big block Chevy by going to a .904 dia. flat tappet lifter as opposed to the stock diameter lifter, assuming the cam is ground to take advantage of the increased diameter?

[@CarsandCats]

Yes!

[@DavidVizard]

Yes

[@donbrutcher4501]

@@DavidVizard Maybe you might expand on that a bit in a future vid.

[@cedricwilson2055]

Great information! Can you do a vid on modern vs old cam profiles, roller, flat, flat solids? Wold be an interesting topic!

[@tking7513]

The late Joe Mondello used a early Olds big block 425 block to take advantage of its .921" lifters using a flat tappet.

[@novajohn6538]

With the 355 example… won’t the roller idle better than the FT due to less overlap at 0.050” and smaller overlap triangle area?

[@racerd9669]

People need to check an article written by Steve Duchech in the Engine Masters Magazine, call unconventional Power, about an LS engine w a F/T cam that placed 2nd in the 2011 EMC contest.

[@daniellefraser2350]

5250 RPM is a magical number. Thank you Sir!!

[@davidlewis2681]

This info is great but again how do you account for flat failures...the cost is astronomical

[@billymanilli]

Break them in right... ...and especially with these lower lifts, you'd be fine. ...or buy one from Howard's... even if it does fail, they'll warrantee it (providing you broke it in and used it properly)

[@Dwlukinbill]

If I take the biggest or longest duration & lift flat tappet cam with a roller lifters. 🤔

[@stevenr8606]

There is no way a flat tappet can handle today's aggressive lobe profiles.

[@DANTHETUBEMAN]

the first think he sed was "how we can get better power from short duration flat tappit cam" that's a less aggressive ramp. 😊

[@paulmryglod4802]

That doesn't mean less aggressive. Same lift, shorter duration is more aggressive. ​@@DANTHETUBEMAN

[@DANTHETUBEMAN]

@paulmryglod4802 I'm a cashier drafter, I know the geometry, I wanted electric solenoid lifters years ago, all cam profiles available at all rpms. 🤠💪🏻

[@paulmryglod4802]

@DANTHETUBEMAN infinite profiles yes. All the horspowrs

[@DANTHETUBEMAN]

@paulmryglod4802 at ever rpm. 😁

[@MrMrBigro]

Hi Mr vizard I own a couple 2.6 liter ford cologne engine.It is possible to use the same trick to get power up to 200 hp with today tech ? You say you like a bet well I wage you a 100 us dollars that you can't and no turbo it has to be na or you can use the 2.8 liter version of it good luck lol ps I would be glad to loose the best for the knowledge

[@MrChevelle83]

the only reason I consider roller cams is simply due to less friction and less oil requirements, if its a low speed low valve spring pressure engine Im perfectly with a nice flat cam. I went with a roller in my chevelle due to all the worry with todays crappy made flat tappet lifters, that is simply it. The last thing is cam break in worries too, but thats not a big deal with correct serup and oil and proper rpm while running.

[@MrChevelle83]

I forgot to mention i already had factory roller sbc so why not embrace what is easily available and cheaper than retro roller.

[@pierrecarlsson902]

Question- Due to what I've learned about oilpressure, reading late Mr Yunicks book where it stated that we mostly put in too high pressure and get unnecessary much internal parasitic losses and high risk for oilpump failure- can there be even higher rewards with oil extreme following the formula of needed pressure/rpm and aim for more flow (for heatdeposit)?

[@gordocarbo]

Next build will have a lot more cubes, great head and a solid flat tappet. DId a solid roller max effort st build....but my god I have thousands in that setup. Will it last as long as myradical sft did I doubt it. Not worth a tenth or 2 in the 1/4 mi which Ill never feel anyways. IMO Less parts to break wiht the FT once you break it in right youre usually good to go. David who is your preferred FT lifter mfr? I WISH...the big 3 would start producing their hyd and solid ft lifters again. There is a huge trend towards flat tappet cams these days the retro roller thing is getting old and really not much gain unless you want every last 1/2 tenth. Opinions? I had a 15k mile HR XFI cam go flat in less than 1 yrs time and I personally made sure it was sprung and setup properly. Stuck a crower in with ISky springs....over 10 yrs later still making power.

[@rondyechannel1399]

Cam question on Mechanical flat tappet vs. hyd. roller. 351C, 10.5 cr.,ported 4v heads, torker single plane for street strip. loose converter, .8 overdrive, beehive springs adjustable 1.8 rockers. 3.70 rear. want near .600 valve lift and 7000 rpm. Which would be the right choice? Will the roller get there with the right springs?

[@CarsandCats]

.894 lifter bore - run a roller. .904 you can get away with a flat tappet. BUT, .904 mushroom lifter would be a real winner that I'd love to try!

[@frank_lehne]

This guy is awesome.

[@MasterWitchDoctor]

Oil Extreme? Ive been using Torco break in oil and their ZDDP additive and I have had a few Lunati cams run flat on me. I chalked it up to the company not being the same as when Joe Lunati owned it. I switched to hardened Howards and Comp cams and havent had an issue. After watching this again Im rethinking things. Well I do thank you for that, its a big pill to swallow when one realizes theyre not as smart as they think they are. Thank you David.

[@DavidVizard]

Well Mr. MWD sir, it's a two way street with you as I almost always glean something of value from your comments so thank you. DV

[@johngray5360]

Mr. Vizard, have you or are you planning to do any testing with WPC treatment? I'm thankin about doing some on my next build and maybe on some parts of my bang bangs. Thanks for sharing your experience/knowledge!

[@DavidVizard]

WPC?

[@soconnoriv]

@@DavidVizard i think he’s referring to micro shot peening, which supposedly leaves a smoother surface than polishing

[@Jkush463]

yeah but dont you create internal resistance with flat tappet cams vs a roller cam which also robs you of power especially at higher spring pressures. I mean there is a reason big hp engines are using roller cams and not flat tappet cams.

[@pmd7771969]

Ok Dave ask comp cams to make this hybrid , cymira cam and lifters set.

[@AndySomogyi]

A lot of engine builders say that there’s only a 50% chance of a flat tappet cam surviving without wiping out the lifters .

[@pmd7771969]

I've had roller cam cars. They make good power vs flat tappet ones.

[@matthewmoilanen787]

Theoretically you are correct about opening rates but in application it turns out nuch different. The problem being that at fast opening rates the cam lobe is touching the lifter at it's outer edge. This of course causes wiping across the pad of the flat tappet due to the included angle. This ib turn causes damage to the cam lobe at least and the lifter pad in most circumstances. This "angled loading" of the lifter bores will break those bores and ruin an engine in many occasions especially with high valve sping pressures. In short theoretically you are correct but practically a flat tappet cam cannot be designed to surpass the opening rates of a roller. Even Pro Stock engines rely on a roller lifter with their extreme valve train geometries with long term durability a secondary issue to just plain go fast.

[@davidsabyan2481]

I went to the PRW website, I don't think they make the Sportsman Steel Roller tip in the 1.65 ratio, but they have the 1.60 ratio. I thought you had suggested to go to a 1.65 ratio in your video, did you mrean to use the 1.60?

[@jimmarler]

I did the same thing. 1.65 for the full roller, and only 1.6 for the sportsman?

[@kevin_6217]

Try to make the background music 3x as loud next time. It was only 2x here, and I can still hear you droning on in the background.

[@TheDynotuner]

Curious David IF you've ever done some port work on the short lived E6 tiny chambered heads? I wanted to try to make them work just to prove many wrong.... THANKS for sharing all you do!

[@DavidVizard]

Hey Dynotuner - I have had brain surgery - which/what head is the E6

[@TheDynotuner]

@@DavidVizard The E6 was Ford's idea of making the heart shaped small chamber to greatly increase low/mid lift swirl. They have small 62cc chambers & valves are very partially shrouded by their "swirl chamber". What I've done so far was use a radius cutter on the SERDI to lay back the chamber where it was so close to the valves. I want to take advantage of the small chamber & do high compression as we have E-85 everywhere & its cheap. But I value your knowledge & was curious if you ever spent anytime seeing if these will work good with some modifications. The 302 is going in a lightweight 78 Zephyr & will get 150-200 wet plate kit as well

[@thatcarguy2778]

If David wants to make a video of the e6 heads I have a pair I would donate.

[@DavidVizard]

@@TheDynotuner I can not recall working on an E6 head - sorry.

[@TheDynotuner]

@@DavidVizard I can email you some detailed pictures if you'd like to see them. The pushrod pinch on them is paper thin on a couple cylinders too. We've already proven you can go high 11's on E7's with factory peanut valves. I'd like to see what we can do with the head no one says will ever work

[@pmd7771969]

I prime all engines.

[@rogerstill719]

What do you think about ISKY? ISKY cams come hardened...

[@DavidVizard]

Isky does some good stuff - have used quite a few of their cams.

[@MrJosephfunk]

Be interested in street car vs street 4x4

[@gregorymarch91]

Another great job.

[@jmflournoy386]

EDM the lifters David?

[@RabeHighPerformance]

What be the best cam for 427 sbc stroker engine with 11.5:1 compression.

[@177SCmaro]

Infinite acceleration? Faster than light travel confirmed!

[@joesalazar770]

Usually the difference is engineered into the cam or in this case the crank. Nor my question is this is from the looks of a total mechanical motor with no timing variation. So my question is when it's all said and done it's a very good point on a mechanical motor. But if u are using variable valve timing and can alter it according to your needs then that will likely negatethe gains I'm interested and I am a deisel engine builder acailly I have biult about every thing. And I do not do this as a profession my own personal fun and enjoyment from boiling better things remember about the oils having less zddp in it causing much more wear and premature failure very important with flat tappet cams be fun to converse one on one some time I have a 5.9 cummins with compound turbos and I am at about 682 rwhp stock fueling these trucks rock. I like you and your channel oil extrem I'm going to look them up I use 2200 ppm in all my oil.

[@billyuhlir3783]

Im in total awe of all the experts but my money is on vizard who has been doing this stuff longer than most experts have been alive.

[@seanb250]

DV changing the peak hp rpm on the calcs just moved the roller further away from peak VE, that’s why the dynamic comp dropped, a fair comparison is to list the same rpm points for both, the advantage of the roller on the back side is that it closes the valve quicker through that mid/lower range which boosts dynamic comp which is more torque. A 355 at 5150rpm has a intake port cfm demand of 223cfm, you only had 210cfm, so try both the cams at 5000rpm and show us the results please 👍

[@DavidVizard]

Sean, I set the Dynamic CR the same for all examples so that fuel octane requirements would be minimally affected.

[@seanb250]

@@DavidVizard but that isn’t the effect the cam is having on the combination tho, to do back to back comparisons you should be only changing the cam specs only.

[@thomasleclair7418]

,,,could you give us the formula to calculate flow cfm to engine size for say 650 hp........

[@seanb250]

@@thomasleclair7418 the cfm demand formula I used above is not for predicting the HP number itself, it’s for seeing what the port with intake attached needs to flow to support an engine of a particular size, at a particular rpm point, you can use this to predict where an engines hp peak or dramatic flattening of its power curve will occur. Cubic inches x rpm x 0.0009785 / number of cylinders = port cfm demand 350 x 5000 x 0.0009785 / 8 = 214cfm port demand This is the formula to use as your target cfm when building a combo and/or porting heads for one. Cross sectional area will dictate for how far it carries that power and the HP/tourque peak spread.

[@thomasleclair7418]

@@seanb250 thanks...............

[@mayhemmotorsports7002]

Looked up the 5086 and 5087 lobe profile. I'm coming up with the xfi lobe. The xfi cams are on a 113 lsa. Would a guy need to special order a cam with the xfi lobe and a tighter LSA? Being you recommend a 106 for the 383..thanks for sharing your info!

[@Cowboy.underwater]

Yes, that’s correct, you would contact comp and order a custom cam that was made using those lobe profiles.

[@DavidVizard]

No special deal here - just order it on a 106 LCA(LSA)

[@mayhemmotorsports7002]

Thanks, but you mentioned pricing in a summit catalog..? Adding a custom hardened cam and getting some American made lifters that are worth a dam (probably getting close to the price of a roller set up) I'll just stick with the roller cam. With the 400 to 450hp mark, just use a vortec roller block

[@johnny0454]

@@mayhemmotorsports7002 Well said 👍

[@jaan-e]

Great stuff!

[@tranthoai4196]

So flat camshaft + roller lifter = fail ?

[@johnny0454]

You can't use roller lifters on a flat tappet cam. The lobe profiles are VERY different. Cams are made specifically for one or the other style of lifter.

[@tranthoai4196]

@@johnny0454 thanks bro

[@oldbowsaw9001]

put a mike on for better sound-thanks.

[@yoosrid]

great, thanks

[@pmd7771969]

Roller lifters do very well. You can't use a flat tappet type lifter on a roller cam profile. Aggressive cam lobes need the rollers to follow along the more aggressive lobe.

[@pmd7771969]

Must be a substandard factory roller cam he's talking about. Even that would make more.

[@GetOutterMeHouse]

Flat tappets scare me because flat is already a part of its name

[@oldbowsaw9001]

No music please--good info.

[@thatcarguy2778]

David, what do you make of all the recent flat tappet lifter failures? I have never had a flat tappet engine but I'm building a mark 4 454 that has a flat tappet which I want to continue to use but I'm worried about a cam going flat.

[@thatcarguy2778]

Nevermind I finished the video lol

[@MrChevelle83]

as long as you buy lifters from a known quality source, use proper oil and do everything correctly youll be fine, the main thing I do on big blocks is use my home made test stand, and stock springs to break in the cam and put a few hrs run time at various rpms then bust it apart inspect everything and cut the oil filter open to be sure im good to go. No cams lost so far ive build several engines over the years and never wiped a cam. last thing is install the correct spring for the application and go have fun! I just put the Tremec TKX 5 speed in my chevelle and whew what a dream of a transmission!!

[@bobkonradi1027]

What I've gathered from watching several videos on the topic on KZbin, is that Chinese-manufactured lifters are flooding the U.S. market and they're not hardened correctly, causing premature wear. Or otherwise not finished correctly such as not having convex faces at the bottom. The lifters aren't rotating because they're flat and not curved, which then wears out the lifter and the cam lobe. And since we don't know where the lifters come from, its difficult to protect ourselves. This inadequate manufacture even comes from places like Comp Cams, where they're (allegedly) buying lifters from China. For nearly 100 years, American-made lifters worked perfectly, but nowadays everybody wants to save a buck or three, and Chinese lifters have hogged the marker to the point where American-made lifters are now hard to find.

[@P_RO_]

@@bobkonradi1027 This is apparently true. Cam grinders make cams; lifters are bought in from someone else who may be sourcing them elsewhere too. The problem is extending to roller lifters now too through premature bearing failure. What was quality yesterday may be crap today, just the way the world is now, so don't assume anything- ask the supplier in detail to show you where the lifters came from and if they can't or won't, then beware.

[@johnny0454]

@bobkonradi1027 Well said, I'd like to add though that lifters don't rotate because of being convex, they rotate because the cam lobe is ground with a slight taper to it, shouldn't matter if the lifter is flat or not; now the metallurgy on the other hand, that's a serious problem. I also wonder if some of these cams are mistakenly being ground without the required taper as if it was a roller. Who knows what kind of people they're using to run the machines; in an effort to keep labor costs down, they might not be the most qualified and probably aren't afforded the time to be meticulous. Anybody who has ever worked at a manufacturing facility probably knows exactly what I'm talking about.

[@rp75heavy]

Putting your brain on full tilt

[@rustywater3219]

Ooo, vector decomposition.

[@anthonyrowland9072]

this is why rollers never became super popular with mopars.

[@localenterprisebroadcastin5971]

Rollers are weaker lifters …all that force is centered on a tiny pin rather than being distributed across the entire surface of the lifter

[@johnny0454]

That's simply not true, because the lobe is an arc, the contact patch on the lifter is just as small on a flat tappet, the load is never spread across the whole flat surface of the lifter at any one time, it sweeps across it, plowing the oil off as it does. In fact, the surface area is actually greater on a roller (if you unrolled it) than the sweep area is on a flat tappet. Additionally, you're spreading the load between two surfaces (the outside as well as the inside of the roller) as opposed to just one like with a flat tappet. Furthermore, the reduction in friction of a roller promotes VASTLY less wear on both; the cam lobes, as well as the lifters. There is nothing weaker about it. 200k miles is easy with a roller, yet 100k is pushing your luck with a flat tappet cam, how does that well-known fact work with your statement? Flat tappets also cause much higher oil temps; there is literally nothing good about them except the cost, even then, it's only if you happen to have a really early block not originally designed for a roller in the first place. There is a reason GM went to roller cams on literally everything almost 30 yrs ago and the performance stuff even before that. Flat tappets are simply ancient technology, there is a much better way of doing it nowadays. This video was not promoting the use of a flat tappet cam in any way, his point was that with the potential savings, you could also buy a stroker crank, which would then outperform the roller cam only because of the greater displacement. It's only a bang for your buck comparison. But that's not even true because the flat tappet engine will only last half as long. In racing however, longevity isn't really as relevant because racing applications are constantly being rebuilt anyway.

[@TRiToN219]

These intros are gold.

[@rightsidelanechoice7702]

Does it have a high zinc content?

[@DavidVizard]

If you mean Oil Extream it has no zinc

[@jimmarler]

@@DavidVizard where does one find this Oil Extreme?

[@rightsidelanechoice7702]

@@DavidVizard don’t you want a high zinc content for all flat tappet cams? I was told by Lunati to not run anything but conventional oil and always use zinc additive and full synthetic oil has 0% zinc content.

[@johnny0454]

@rightsidelanechoice7702 That was true 20 years ago when there were growing pains during the transition away from ZDDP, it's not necessary anymore; today's oils actually have better molecules than ZDDP in them now. But the masses get ideas stuck in their heads which are hard to change. The real problem is in the metallurgy of the parts we get these days. Even if a cam is ground in the U.S., the steel still comes from China. David said in this video that he won't even run a flat tappet cam without it being case-hardened.

[@rightsidelanechoice7702]

@@johnny0454 huh that’s weird because I’ve rounded off 2 lunati and one competition cam every time on an exhaust lobe on different cyl. Until I started riunning conventional Castrol 20/50 with zinc additive. Still running the exact same cam grind on a lunati voodoo cam and I have had mo problems in squire some time,

[@leilanihayes787]

Turn off that stupid music so you can hear the man.

[@smilsmff]

Now the stories are dont get a flat tappet cam all lifter are bad. ever since Covid 2020 it all started, They are trying to sell these expensive rollers and scaring people into using them