Flat Tappet vs Roller Cam - The Factory 302/5.0 SBF

[@mikemaccracken3112]

I use a ton of flat tappet cams for restricted racing classes and find them more durable than roller cams. The solid flat tappet lifter is lighter and edm oiling holes in the lifter face will keep the lifter alive during high spring pressures. I agree a roller lifter on the street is the best way to go as long as you do not go crazy with the valve spring pressures. I've seen stock roller lifters break because someone decided up the spring pressure to 160 lbs on the seat. Just remember to be honest with yourself on what your truly going to do with your combination. Hydraulic Rollers are great for street cars and Solid Rollers are for racing. I run hydraulic flat tappet cams on many street cars and use COMP Cam or Driven racing oils and it's really not that expensive. But most of these cars are not daily drivers. Great advise Luke.

[@ThunderHead289]

thanks for the great response - going to pin this one. good knowledge here.

[@Dodgechallengersixpack]

I use driven racing HR6 its great oil. ZDDP additive along with anti rust and fully synthetic. It fits my usage for my classic car. I am however about to convert my flat tappet to hydraulic. The hydraulic cam is designed around my cnc heads going on the car. I also dont want to break in the cam, with the coated headers I have. It destroys the ceramic coating during break in.

[@alan6832]

@@ThunderHead289 Show us treehuggers the motorized bicycle behind you in the shop!

[@AmericanThunder]

I love the solid flat tappets. 100% reliable and lightweight, yup! I run my "street" engine up to 8500 with a solid flat tappet camshaft, and while yeah, a solid roller would make more power, would it be safe for constant use? All it takes is one valve float, that roller lifter jumps off the cam lobe, crashes back down, needle bearings explode into fragments, and roller lifter and cam lobe is annihilated. Hmm. Yeah, I'll stick with solid flat tappets. lol

[@alan6832]

@@AmericanThunder could valve float be used intentionally to increase valve duration at high revs?

[@BUILTFORDTOUGH79]

No matter what I search for with these dentsides, I always get your videos…. Love it

[@AmericanThunder]

The roller cam began in 1985, when the HO still had the holley carb. In fact, 1985 was the only year ever to have both roller cam and carburetor, which is why it's my favorite fox.

[@davidkrebs1152]

Thanks for the clear distinction between the 2 different cams. I had an 83' mercury capri with a 5.0 and flat tappet cam. It was about 1992 and car needed restoring. So I bought a Lanati cam/lifter kit in the rebuild process. They forgot to put a piece of paper in that informed me the firing order changed,lol! My uncle had an 85 capri with 5 spd and roller cam system. It was much quicker than my 83 was. I repainted it for him in 96' and got to return it to him about 30 miles away- it was a fun drive there! Keep up the good job.

[@robertwestfall5673]

Love your video bro good show. I have to tell you in the future My first experience with auto cam replacement back in 1963 1964 57 Oldsmobile

[@ThunderHead289]

if the block is in the car, it isnt any fun - thats for sure!

[@davevictoriadriskell2111]

I had an 83 Capri 302/ T-5 with a 4 BBL Started with minor mods. First, post 86 when the factory started using the roller cam, I converted the 83 to a roller cam before the cam company’s started offering conversion kits. I ordered a roller cam from Comp cams, bought factory roller lifters, spider, dog biscuits, and push rods. Bought a factory steel distributor gear. Drilled two shallow 1/4 holes in the valley and used aircraft rivnuts and a bushing between the spider and block to get the proper height for spider ( to match the height of the roller block ) held it down with a 1/4-20 bolt. Worked like a champ. Went with TrickFlow heads, intake, headers, MSD ignition. later more mods A-4 block, billet crank, rods better TrickFlow heads we were finely into the mid 8's . of course lots of suspension and chassis work as well. motor made 637 HP ON motor at Jim Kunts shop . we added a 500 shot of Nos via a NOS direct port plumbing. car currently upgrading to an LS motor with a large turbo set up.

[@DarylWade]

Great Video! I learned a ton about what happened to my last engine I pulled recently. When I bought the truck back 15 years ago, it has a fresh rebuild by a speed shop in Las Vegas. In 2014 it just didn't seem to have the same power, so I tore the top off. I did not go all the way to the cam though, just down to the lifters. After watching this video I see that when pulled the lifters after removing the dog bones they were a flat tappet hydraulic lifter, so that is what I put back in with all new and pushrods. (I'll follow up on this) Tomorrow I'm going to for the cam and see if a roller was put in with flat tappet lifters?) More Later! Very Interesting! Thank You!

[@marcuslee5549]

Thanks for the information on it. Like all of your video that you put out.

[@ThunderHead289]

hey, i really appreciate that - i hope they help and are informative!

[@kerryhuston3669]

I loved your video. I like both go Ford power. I have a 1986 crown Vic with 336765 miles and I have only done tube ups and regular oil changes. I'm amazed at the tourqe it still has. No smoke I can see. Oh have to replace tapet cover gaskets. It is the fuel injection animal also. Thanks.

[@rustybrowneye]

Kerry Huston im amazed some one still drives a 86 vic.. u must be out west. I havent seen that body style around in a decade or so

[@ThunderHead289]

thats way cool - i have an 09 crown vic currently. the older units were much more ornate and comfortable!

[@TheIanmurphy]

So did I understand this correctly: you can put a flat tappet cam on the newer roller block engines (~1986 and later) but you cannot put a roller cam on the earlier 302 engines?

[@ThunderHead289]

That is 100 percent correct. You can do a roller cam, but you will need link bar retrofit lifters which are very spendy - like 500-700.

[@planejet42]

In my 1972 F100, I have the stock 302. It has around 106,000 miles on it. I have some sort of tap/knock and I can't seem to get it to go away. I stuck a piece of wood up to my ear and to the engine and it definitely sounds like it's coming from the valve area. It's there at startup, quiets down when warm, and gets louder under load. The engine seems to run like a top otherwise.

[@ThunderHead289]

thats odd that is quiets down when warm. must not be a knocking rod since it would get worse when warm. honestly the scenario you describe depicts a leaking exhaust gasket.

[@alexv.100]

Just a thought.. if u still have the truck and the issue.. Not enough zinc in oil you use?

[@alexv.100]

My 82 mustang did the same thing until I realized previous owner probably didnt and I didnt either the first oil change... because I did not know about flat tappet/zinc additive requirements. Luckily not too worried about it because it will be getting a rebuild/swap

[@6ford9]

Kinda wish i ordered a roller block for my rebuild the more I think about it. Might have to do the speedy conversion

[@briankirk5617]

Late model 2004 & up F150's,are equipped with roller 5.0L engines.Easy way to determine if you have a factory roller block,in the middle of the lifter valley,the block will have XXX or YYY cast into them,The 1986 5.0 H.O EFI was different,it came with flat top pistons,avoid this engine if possible,'valve clearance is an issue if '87 & up cylinder heads are used on them,

[@ThunderHead289]

even simpler yet is to pull a valve cover, remove a rocker arm and pull a pushrod - if its the shorter one as i described in the video, its a roller cam inside.

[@briankirk5617]

Correction,1994-1996 F-150 had 5.0 rollers, and I was only referring to the engine block itself,Ford Racing sold a roller cam conversion kits for older small block Fords.The casting stamp was just an easy way to determine at a glance.

[@arcorob]

Hello sir, I have a technical/spec question for you if that's okay. I have a 1966 Mustang 289 4bbl (stock) that I am upgrading. I have chosen the heads (Trickflow twisted wedge 53cc combustion chamber so compression ratio on stock pistons stays good). I have a performer manifold and performer cab. My sticking point? The Cam. I don't want a high loping cam and with stock pistons, I have been told don't go over .50 on lift to avoid valve crash with the TF heads. I had looked at the Edelbrock performer cam (flat tappet) because I want a MILD cam but would really like to go roller cam . Companies like Howard cams will grind a cam but my question (yes, finally getting to the question) is should I tell them the similar spec to the flat tappet ? Am I short changing myself on the build (cam not doing what the heads and the rest have potential for )? Should I just stick to flat tappet or am I again short changing myself? Thanks in advance

[@MavDude]

Great vid.. but at 3:54 you got the distributors backwards. The one in your left hand is an older mid-late 80s distributor with the TFI mounted directly on it and the one in your right is a later distributor for the remote mount TFI that started in the early 90s.

[@ThunderHead289]

MavDude I was just able to look at this and i see what you are saying now! you are 100 percent correct!!! that was a good catch!

[@michaelvalenti5210]

Great video! Learned a lot. Thanks.

[@Orangelemonblue]

Weird question, but going to just throw it out there...i have a roller cam setup and cannot get rid of a lifter tick on cylinder number 3. both of the exhaust and intake pushrods are slightly loose and won't/don't tighten the same way as all of the other pushrods...i just had a valve job completed and am using 302 heads on my 351 engine (which shouldn't be the issue since it's only that one cylinder that is ticking)...but yeah, I have tried replacing the rocker arms with new ones and still no luck - the intake and exhaust pushrods are still slightly loose and tick. I guess the next thing to try is to replace the 2 roller lifters for that cylinder (i reused roller lifters from another 97 truck since buy 16x new ones was going to cost me over $200. But yeah ,i guess hopefully it's just the 2 lifters causing the tick? I'll find out soon enough when I replace them. Also thanks for the tip on the distributors, hopefully it isn't too late to get the correct one in there, i suppose I've been driving for about 5k miles with a flat tappet distributor gear with a roller cam 😬😖

[@kimkiriniki9433]

Very informative, thanks. I wonder if anyone ever tested the friction differences between the the two types of valvetrain?

[@ThunderHead289]

the flat tappet has proven to have a much higher friction coefficient, same as typical none roller rocker arms

[@lordspam2721]

Late model resto sales a Ford made tappet to roller conversion which includes the plate and dog bones. Any experience with these? Got a 302 stoked to 331 and it needs to be rebuilt. Noticed the firing order was not H.O

[@jeromeycummins6549]

I have a 91 F150 with a 302 and E4OD. 70,000 original miles and incredibly clean southern truck. I'm in the process of building it to be a street truck. I'd like it to be a monster from street light to street light but I do pull a small 7x12 landscaping trailer from time to time and drive the freeway a lot. I love a lumpy idle like your galaxy if possible. What cam and heads would you suggest? I don't mind spending the money for good quality. Other plans as well are, aftermarket truck intake, duel exhaust and MAF conversion. I'll be doing the work myself. Keep doing what you do. I love your videos and thank you for your shared knowledge.

[@finharms9439]

Jeromey Cummins im doing the same but i have an 88 with the AOD and they make SD cams that are a good upgrade, and what intake do you plan on using?

[@keithjones7674]

Thank you for the video very helpful! Can you recommend a new roller lifter brand? I hear aftermarket lifters may be taller than OEM and hard to put into bore without removing heads? Also if I keep same cam and replace liters should I run break in oil? It is a 95' 5.0 Cobra GT-40 heads. Thank you!

[@alexmirich7343]

I have a 302 small block that came out of a 1978 Mustang II, so the engine was probably manufactured in 1974 or so. Is the engine too old (in design) to convert the flat tappet system to a roller rocker arm arrangement ? Would a different set of heads be required in order to accomplish the conversion ? Nice job on your videos, by the way!

[@jack_knife_customz2966]

how's it going sir, so here's my issue... bought a rebuilt motor, sbc 350 bored 40... ran it for 6/7 months, always heard a bell noise... finally driving home it felt under powered. took valve cover off, cylinder 5 rocker arms were off the push rods. took manifold off, only to see that the mechanic who did my motor swap never installed a spider which never held down my lifter guides. broke 3 lifters and ruined camshaft. this is how i found out i had roller cam and roller lifters. i since then have acquired a roller cam, and roller lifters. my question is about push rods. the ones i had got chewed up, i measured then roughly 7.192" the motor is a 96 vortec motor, on my 85 c10. is this the correct length push rods i need?

[@6ford9]

I ordered a flat tappet block going to do the roller conversion didn’t weigh my options in the beginning

[@josephrichardlevesque1818]

I guess itll have to a 2 part question sry about that long and short is that I ve changed the water pump twice the thermostat 3 times new aluminium rad flushed 20-25 times isolated heater core and I still have an overheating issue no froth in the oil pan no white smoke out the tail pipe ! I've owned it for like25 yrs now and I'm at a loss, am I pulling out the motor and starting from scratch at the machine shop, or is there something I'm missing something? Any tips or suggestions would really help thank you for your time and the channel it's a great resource!

[@thatbuelldude189]

What happened to the F100? Loved seeing it on the channel Miss seeing it

[@ThunderHead289]

she will be coming back in the spring - its on the other side of the wall in the video.

[@thatbuelldude189]

ThunderHead289 heck ya I'm looking buying my 76 F100 back, it's had a 460 swap so I think I need it 👍

[@Lee_Etterling]

Hello Sir - have been watching your videos on the F100. I’m putting a 77’ back on the road and purchased a Flame Thrower HEI distributor for it. It came w/a machined drive gear where as mine has a cast gear. Pertronix said to just punch the split pin out and swap them. Would you recommend this? Thank you, Lee

[@ThunderHead289]

As far as I know, all peetronix units run a melonized gear acceptable for both cast flat tappet and steel roller. I've never had issues with machined melonized gear on pertronix on flat tappet cam engines thus far, but it is worth a second clarification with a different individual

[@josephrichardlevesque1818]

I have a question, I currently own a 5.0 flat tappet which in the past have done a fair bit of work to Edelbrock preformer rpm top end kit, 30 over at the machine shop. It sat for while life happens!

[@chuckward9793]

Just subscribed, great video. I came across this video trying to figure out just exactly what is different about the roller locks. I did not know about the distributor gear, probably saved me a future problem. You really seem to know your stuff. I have a 95 F150 5.8 4x4 roller block truck. I am going to do a slight build on this truck. Do you have a suggestion for a head, cam combo for a little increased HP with torque being the most important outcome. Thanks

[@sudsycloud6530]

I'll preface with saying I'm new to pushrod engines. I'm familiar with them, I'm no expert by any means though. Most if not all modern DOHC engines use hydraulic direct action flat buckets and don't require tons of zinc. They've replaced zinc with other additives in modern oils to counter that loss in zinc. It's pretty apparent that longevity isn't a problem as I've seen 200k mile engines with cam lobes and buckets still within spec. Granted, most stock cams aren't even mildly aggressive. I can see high lift/high spring pressures causing issues, but look at all of the 2JZ's and such running super aggressive cams with high spring rates without issues. That may be different with pushrod flat tappets. Why that would be different, I don't know. The geometry difference may have something to do with it, but I'm just guessing. My 89 Escort GT used roller lifters and I had one of the stamped steel dog bones break at one point. The roller went sideways against the lobe and the noise was not something you want to hear from an engine. It destroyed the cam lobe and flattened the roller.

[@ashqelon7267]

How does a roller affect the open / close that this profile causes on the valves and springs? Is it more violent causing more wear on vlv and the seats etc?

[@ThunderHead289]

A roller can track a more aggressive profile - so it takes less time to be at full lift, meaning you can hang at full lift longer and really move some air. They are also much more wear resistant

[@ashqelon7267]

@@ThunderHead289 Thx for reply here, I looked around to learn about solid roller VS hydraulic, the Pro/Cons. And the hyd roller seems every bit as efficient due to design technology is "come of age “ advanced. The performance results available, is in some very good shop experiments, too close to be any real gains solid VS hyd roller differences for a street motor.. One thing I am still uncertain about on this project, is I have a Pontiac 400 block that will be the target patient for the roller. There is a lifter valley brace someone MFG for the 400 engine. Yet I have found a mixed bag on thoughts if it is really needed for a street roller cam. Any thoughts or rumors on this lifter valley brace?

[@rustybrowneye]

Something i still unclear on is did all the 5.0s after 86 have roller or just the high output 5.0s and what about the truck 5.0s and 5.8s?

[@ThunderHead289]

all of the blocks from 86 model year on were roller units, though not all came with a roller cam. the trucks did not have a roller cam until 1993 or 94 i believe.

[@cth0211]

all of the 351w and 5.0's were machined with te taller lifter bores. for both reg non-roller cam and roller cam use(t-bird vs h/o motors) 460's never got hyd roller cams

[@brettvanderveen7156]

As it pertains to the Mustangs 5.0, 85 was the first year for roller and all Mustangs with a T-5 5-speed manual had the combination of a roller cam and a carburetor. All 85's that were automatics had a flat tappet cam and fuel injection. 86 and newer are all fuel injection and roller cams.

[@finharms9439]

My 88 truck engine is the old school style

[@hyzercreek]

My 1918 Buick E-49 with a 242 engine (jughead 6) has roller lifters. Yup, roller lifters are at least 100 years old!

[@ThunderHead289]

Someone was really thinking back in the day 💪

[@AmericanThunder]

@@ThunderHead289 They had to back then, they didn't have a lot of cash to just throw at things, the way they do today. Ingenuity > money

[@alexv.100]

Dont see the link for that comparison vid :( Also... how come some aftermarket heads say whether it is for a flat tappet/roller lifter? (SBF 302/351) I dont see why heads would get affected by it, just need proper pushrod size and proper springs, right?

[@ThunderHead289]

It’s because some are premade with heavier springs for roller lifter engines. Roller engines have a much more aggressive ramp, so heavier springs are required for the lifters to correctly follow the cam profile.

[@darronmecak5720]

Hi can you run a small base circle roller cam on a later roller block or do the roller lifters sit to far down in the the lifter bore ?

[@antoinehaynes8479]

So what can happen if you use the roller push rod on a flat tappet? cam, some guy built my engine, but turned my roller engine into a flat tappet with a 501 422 duration nitrous cam, but i here a tick in my engine now smh do i just change my push rods ??? And use the factory rockers too. Does anyone have any advice ?

[@michaellafreniere5083]

I have an 87 f150 engine that has the spider plate material but it isn't tapped out for the spider plate,non roller basically.. my roller 94 block is cracked and would like to transfer the roller equipment so my question is can I still and tap the preformed mount for the spider plate?

[@ThunderHead289]

You absolutely can, but be careful - those boses are directly above the cam bearings. It can be done no problem, but be careful of how deep - be sure to use a bottoming tap, which is different than a normal tap

[@michaellafreniere5083]

@@ThunderHead289 thanks for the reply I've been searching everywhere for info on this. Next question is the roller Perch looks shorter than the non roller Perch do you think the spider plate will be tight against the dog bones?? Guessing if need be I can grind the Perch down until it get tight to hold dog bones down.!!

[@HammerHeadGarage]

Roller is the way in my opinion. Building a 91 5.0l block with gt40p heads and trickflow stage 1 cam at the moment. Weind stealth intake and the summit 600 carb with anular boosters.

[@ThunderHead289]

+Shawn Bradley sounds like a good build! Iv been a huge advocate for that summit 600 unit - best carb design I have ever ran!

[@chevroletbelair1]

should i use assembly lube on my roller comp cam with roller link bar lifters or just oil with zinq in . also assembly lube on the cam bearings?

[@ThunderHead289]

Put assembly lube on everything and then break in with a zinc additive like Lucas engine break in lube. Then run a zinc oil forever. Personally I use Rotella 15-40. It's cheap and I've never wiped a cam lobe. Drop oil after break in, then after the first 500 miles, then go to normal oil change intervals

[@timhaliti7162]

While we're on the camshaft stuf ... I've never been as desperate as I am now.i only wanted to swap camshafts and lifters on my Ford Ranchero1979.and now I'm not getting any further.all i find are just high performance racing and stuf .I want nothing more than a factory condition camshaft and lifters. I'm not doing a complete rebuilt so far. So i'm following you and i see that are awesome on that stuf .. so please maybe you can give me a proposal or part number that would be for my Windsor 351 v85,8l I really appreciate it Best regards Tim fromm Germany

[@naamanmagnusanthony9035]

Nice ! Thanks for posting. how would roller compare to solid roller ?

[@ThunderHead289]

should not be any different - often a different cam gear of a sacrificial material such as composite or brass is recommended (dont know why honestly). the main difference is going to be your valve spring pressure since the solid roller will generally have more lift and duration for higher rpm applications. - requires more valve spring to accurately control that.

[@wildbillo68]

I can find a aftermarket head with 1.90 Intake valves for a 1985 H.O. Roller Motor for some reason.... they either have 2.02 valves or they don't support the spring needed for the Roller cam... I am keeping the stock cam and stock pistons (that's why no 2.02 valves) , wouldn't the .444 lift of the Roller cam be fine with most aftermarket heads? edelbrock says not to use the e-street in their advertisements... what heads can I bolt on without changing anything? Anyone??? even on line no one has a definitive answer...WTF

[@adolphjanssen6580]

Hi guys, how is the rollercam at low and midrange rpm, do you also get a power increase?? The reason why I ask is I have an old GM 250cid inline boat motor which Iam thinking off restoring. And getting some extra power over the standard 165hp.

[@jamescharles7637]

Going to a roller setup does a few beneficial things: Frees up power bc the roller has less friction. Which also roller set up will last longer bc its not "metal to metal". Allows for better cams to be put in motors for higher rpm applications. Roller setups do need stiffer valve springs.

[@calinbreedlove4196]

I know this is and older video and I don't know whether you'll see this or not, but what oil do you recommend for flat tappet cams?

[@alexv.100]

Racing oils have a good amount of zinc in them. Other than that, use Zddp additive

[@lalonunez517]

Is roller more reliable?

[@ThunderHead289]

lalo nunez yes - 100 percent!

[@sandmansimms5704]

@@ThunderHead289 Are you still around? I have a question or something I'd like you to read rather and curious to know your response.

[@THE-SLAUGHTERHOUSE.]

Nice vid.!

[@graybeardproductions2597]

I've got a 302 from a 1991 f150 coming and I don't know if it's a roller cam or not yet

[@ThunderHead289]

It's a roller block with bosses not drilled and flat tappet cam installed

[@andrewmcgill4957]

@@ThunderHead289 can you convert from flat tappet to roller? I have a 1989 302 truck engine that has the drilled holes for the spider but has no spider and looks to be running flat tappet. But it is stamped xxx and I'm thinking it's a roller block.