Flats v Percentages: Which is the better Refine?

Takes an in-depth look at which refine would be better - Flats or Percentages when attacking and when defending.
Buff Analysis Spreadsheet - docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Evony Guide Wiki: Base Stats - evonyguidewiki.com/en/troop-i...
Timestamps
0:00 - Flats or Percentages?
1:00 - How Buffs Work
3:50 - The Almighty Spreadsheet
10:52 - Which refine is better for Attacking?
18:16 - Which refine is better for Defending
24:26 - General Advice

[@RedEvony]

Hey guys 😊👋. Thanks to numerous requests, I have made the analysis spreadsheet available for everyone. You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video. The option to download a copy of the spreadsheet is also available. Feel free to let me know if you have any issues accessing it 👍

[@audiedickert1745]

Aka.. sir. What about when the Buffs are mixed. Do they go in order.. in that situation wouldn't it be ideal to hit flats in the first one or two, and then percentages on the rest. Have you done any research in that situation. Like if refines are mixed how is it calculated.

[@audiedickert1745]

I have some alch. Gear just one piece and it has two flat refines first then percentages. And it has the highest power out of all my equipment. It surpasses the other equipment I think it's a ring and even tho it's alch. It still has a higher power count then my parthan and imperial rings.

[@audiedickert1745]

Power on that ring alone is 508,000

[@RedEvony]

Buffs can be mixed, so you can have both % and flats on the same gear 👌 As far as I know, there is no priority order for the refines, so it wouldn’t matter what order your refines are in

[@RedEvony]

The ring will have a higher power if the refines you have on the ring are much better than on your other gear. That’s perfectly fine 👌 Also, please don’t spam the comments again

[@illbrizzil]

your best work yet Aka. You are the best entry level creator on youtube. The way you structure and present your videos are accessible and well thought out. You might not go as deep as some, but content like this provides a beach head to be able to understand more complicated mechanics. Superb. This is the video to share for newer or mid level players. Much appreciated. Well done!

[@illbrizzil]

Also, I want the spreadsheet 🙏.

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much for the kind words. I really appreciate it 😊🙏 You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@illbrizzil]

@@RedEvony solid. keep crushing bro!

[@tabby7189]

Excellent video. I would like to make three critiques: - if your t1 wall earns its keep, enemies are practically forced to rally, so you aren't dealing with max debuffs. - many of us aren't on civ gear, which means the cutoff for a good refine is actually 20-22%. However, if my sources are correct, upper limits on flats are the same between Ares/achaemenidae and civ gear, so the cutoffs are even lower when not using civ gear. - for attack and defense, it is apparent that even above the cutoff tier flats are equivalent to around 20% refines under non-max debuffs, which means it's like playing with second-rate percentages, which means if you have any meaningful quantity of lower tier troops then flats are definitely better. (Especially if you're not using civ gear, cf previous point)

[@hanachan6925]

You wrote all i was thinking about the refining thing for non coiners players that can not get civ’s scrolls that easy! Thanks

[@phh.8393]

Superb work again, Aka. You're quintessential channel for evony players 😊 Many are knowledgeable but none of them can explain things as good as you

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much 😊🙏

[@brandywhitaker1261]

The best explanation I've seen. Thank you. ❤

[@giftemelike1571]

This is super amazing 😍, And yes I would love this cool spreadsheet please 🥺

[@markliddle5628]

amazing video aka thank you so much like somebody said you have to be the best content creator for evony thank you so much for doing this for us , mark

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much Mark 😊🙏

[@Fersanbo]

Hi Aka. Thanks for the time and energy invested. Awesome work. Thank you for sharing.

[@RedEvony]

Thanks a lot. Really appreciate it 😊🙏

[@BuckeyeNut123]

Awesome analysis and presentation. Thank you.

[@RedEvony]

Thanks a lot Don 😊🙏

[@robertjohnson9036]

Yes I love to be able to get my hands on your spread sheets

[@RedEvony]

The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 😉👍

[@Lord_Tazz]

Oh yes Aka very Interested on the spread sheet. And TY for it in advance

[@RedEvony]

The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 😉👍 And thank you 😊🙏

[@eltiger-thetiger6915]

Thanks a lot bro. This video is very helpful and useful.

[@RedEvony]

Thanks a lot Tiger 😊🙏

[@BlackGoliath987]

And this is the reason I love this channel ... Not only did it give me a lot to think about it was filled with useful information that has me looking at refines differeny Aka you are the besf 🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much 😊🙏

[@jecovyjohnson6362]

You are a heavy influence on my keep. I see the increase in performance with your knowledge of the game. Simple and effective break downs

[@RedEvony]

I'm very glad to hear that 😊 🙏

[@lpickens012]

Interested in the spreadsheet n thks for your video

[@RedEvony]

Thanks 😊🙏 The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 👌

[@SimplyTroll_01]

Thanks aka for your continued sharing of very useful knowledge. Everything you said here are things anyone can work on archiving, it might take a bit of time for free to play players but we'll get there eventually

[@RedEvony]

Yes that’s true, putting it into practice is not very easy and might take some time. But when you get to that point, you’ll have a clearer understanding of what to do. That’s my hope anyways ☺️😇

[@SimplyTroll_01]

@@RedEvony true, I already made the mistake of choosing GD over queen B which I just decided to work on gear and refines when that is done I can easily upgrade queen B to take over

[@operaly9894]

bonjour Aka 🥰, je suis de retour, beaucoup de changement dans mon jeu, j'ai quitter mon alliance pour jouer solo 🙈 donc j'ai du temps pour étudier tous ces statistiques ! 😜 merci pour ce magnifique travail, vraiment très intéressant, je comprends mieux ce que je dois améliorer

[@savethehumans7460]

Thanks for the share Aka.

[@RedEvony]

Thanks 😊. Hope it was interesting

[@savethehumans7460]

@@RedEvony very well put together presentation that I shared in WC Aka.

[@jeffmcgarrity6698]

I also are very interested in obtaining this spreadsheet. Thank you for everything you present.

[@RedEvony]

The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 😉👍 And thank you 😊🙏

[@olddevildog773]

Great video Aka and yes I'm very interested in the spread sheet

[@RedEvony]

Thank you 😊🙏 You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@claudiamonteiro7184]

Aka, thank you very much, for the first time in a while, I finally understand the difference between the two, and why each of them benefits each type of troop. You are the best ❤

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much and glad the video was helpful ☺️🙏

[@viniciolince]

Top 10 !! thanks akka.

[@RedEvony]

Thank you 😁🙏

[@jackieelliott9321]

Yes please share spreadsheet. 😊

[@RedEvony]

You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@hendog228]

I'm interested in getting the spreadsheet. Thanks for the breakdown.

[@RedEvony]

Glad to help 😊 You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@MBARAKAJA23]

Sos un maestro!! muchas gracias AKA.

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much 😊🙏

[@freetownmeshach1934]

I'll like to have that spread sheet. Thanks for the video very helpful

[@RedEvony]

Thank you 😊🙏 You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@freetownmeshach1934]

@@RedEvony I'm still very new to this only k33 trying to build my t1 wall. Thanks for the tip

[@nomadicchef5337]

Hey Aka. Love your content bro. Have you done a video that covers reinforcing buildings. What are the best generals and march types for reinforcement?

[@RedEvony]

Thanks 😊🙏 I actually have that topic on my “To Do” list. I’ll see how soon I can get that video(s) done 😉👌

[@mattiase84]

Please do. I would love to get my hands on that spreadsheet. I'm at a point where the opposition is starting to increase their debuffs so it would be very helpful. And thank you very much for your informative videos!

[@RedEvony]

The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 😉👍 And thank you 😊🙏

[@timjones3554]

​@@RedEvonythanks Aka. Would you say with flats, it's largely irrelevant which wall gen we use? When we put cav flats on all gear, then use the wall general to boost other areas. Maybe archer if I want to use them for defense also? Maybe Zachary Taylor or Kusunoki?

[@butchsimpson9670]

Thanks for this and all your videos. I would like the spreadsheet.

[@RedEvony]

The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 😉👍 And thank you 😊🙏

[@marcosmssl1496]

Esto fue de mucha ayuda gracias y si quiero tener esa hoja de cálculo como referencia

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much 😊🙏 The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 👌

[@Harry-ii6js]

now , all is clear to me aka , thank you

[@RedEvony]

Glad to help 😊👍

[@user-fp1rn9yi2d]

Awesome video I would love to have access to that flow chart

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much 🙏 You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@Q12380]

Great work. I’m interested in the spreadsheet also.

[@RedEvony]

Thank you 😊🙏 You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@Q12380]

@@RedEvony you’re welcome and thank you. Great job.

[@tammybennett2599]

Yes on spreadsheet

[@RedEvony]

You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@mikestaihr5183]

Yes spreadsheet!

[@RedEvony]

You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@claudiopastor]

Hi Aka. Amazing video. I would like to have this spreadsheet. Thanks

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much 😊🙏 Link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 👌

[@michelleoli4201]

Hi, im definitely interested in the spreadsheet if you do share! Very cool video. Thank you for making it. It has been a debate in the alliance which is better 😂😅😊.

[@JNTimperley]

What would happen if your main general had percentage buffs and your assistant general had flat buffs

[@michelleoli4201]

@@JNTimperley That is a very good question that I hope to test out next BoC ironically. What have you heard?

[@JNTimperley]

@@michelleoli4201 Nothing looking forward to a reply.

[@illbrizzil]

@@JNTimperley how do you put flat buffs on your assistant?

[@numanfazal1576]

No buffs add to the assistant but only the skill books and main skill

[@phacialoveskakashi2119]

And yes, please, i would like a copy of this. If you would like t16 stat information to add to it, let me know. I have the base stats from t16s after creating a couple new keeps for research.

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much 🙏. When I plan on updating the sheet, I’ll take you up on that 😁 You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@mikep509]

Great info...remember flat refines are not debuffed...they have their place i attacking as well as defence

[@RedEvony]

Thanks Mike 😊🙏

[@mikep509]

@@RedEvony I'd like to see what quantity of troops per tier flat refines become less effective vs % refines.... example 100k T10 horse flat vs 110k T10 horse T10 %

[@RedEvony]

That would be a bit difficult to do because we would have to simulate battle mechanics to get that

[@hollymorris9360]

I’m interested in spreadsheets thank you

[@RaptorWolf81]

Aka, you are missing the video when SvS takes place. I'm still trying to get my wings but the last 3 SvS were against BOB servers, so only big players were participating. Thank you, Aka!!

[@firecatattack1]

I think this is amongst the most concise and informative videos i have seen produced on this topic. I will say that I think your conclusions are a bit flawed when it comes to factoring in "less than fulll" debuff scenarios simply because you should consider your refine buffs to be completely untouched in those situations, as they are effectively the only area where you are given a choice to buff via flat or %. If your base % stats from all other sources are not fully debuffed, then your % refines are pure 100% unbuffed additions to those stats.

[@RedEvony]

Thank you very much 😊🙏 The scenario that you laid out would actually be ideal if that were the case. Unfortunately there isn’t anything concrete to make us assume that buffs from refines are given a different debuff priority. So the safe assumption is that all the buffs are put together, and then debuffs are applied 👌

[@firecatattack1]

@RedEvony I think my description lacked clarity. Let me try a more scenario based example: Your marching range attack buff not including refines is 1000% Your enemy debuffs 499% range attack This means that under the examples you've provided in yoir video, your calculation would be that you are debuffed 49%, and as such I assume your recommendation would tend towards flat refines, as you would calculate the additional buffs you receive from your refines at only ~51% of their full value. In reality though if you utilize your 8 refines towards percentage and increase your marching ranged attack to 1200% (25x8), your enemies debuffs do not change. You still get debuffed by 499%, and so those last 200% of buffs that you added through refining are not debuffed at all. You have effectively gone from 501% range attack to 701% There are really only 2 scenarios to be considered I believe. Fully debuffed, or not fully debuffed. Does that make sense?

[@-SeanyBoy-]

@firecatattack1 not really, players who can fully debuff that 500%, can most likely debuff that 700% also, especially if they have the military academy (k36+). the 50% debuff is constant as long as thier debuffs are more than 50% of your buffs. evony only lets you dubuff up to 50% of your opponants buffs. if i have 1500% siege attack debuff, i can debuff your % by 50% all the way up. if your siege attack is 1500% i can debuff 750% of it. if your buff is 2000% i can debuff 1000%, etc... the only time i cant debuff 50%, is if your buffs are more than twice my debuffs. for example if your buffs were 3200%, then i could only debuff 1500%, to leave you with1700% buffs. but when you have 10 subs with full Achae gear, those siege attack buffs get slashed in half pretty easily. once you start to add full sets of debuff gear on multiple subs, it adds up pretty quick & when you factor in research debuffs as well, well you get the picture. there will always be a whale that has debuffs bigger than your regular buffs combined, lol. imagine the you are a k37, the 50% represents a k40, the 30% repesents k35, & the 20% represents a k33, each are @ different levels of debuff value. every scenario is different, so there is no "ONLY black or white", just $#it-tons of shades of grey. For this exact reason, it is generally a bad idea to solo attack above your keep level, because they have access to more buffs & debuffs than you do.

[@firecatattack1]

@seanhjelseth9671 Understand everything you're saying, and it's all accurate, but not relevant to my comment. I am simply pointing out that o ly two scenarios need to be considered - Fully debuffed (Srats like siege attack) and Not fully debuffed (Stats like Siege Defense). There is no reason to take time calculating these interim categories like 20, 30, 40% debuffed.

[@iskanderkazakov4686]

Thnx for the useful analysis. Could u give me an advice. I have meat shield by t1-3 cavs and only 2 layered pvp marches from t1 to t14 - grounds and range. The most high level troops that I have - ranged (t14 - 1 mln, t13 1 mln, t12 1,5 mln), grounds (t 14 1 mln, t13 1 mln, t12 500k). I don’t have many mounted and siege troops (about 500k of t14s each and t12 about 250k each). And I’m confused. Which generals could be more useful for my defence. I thought about Boudicca bc of my t1-3 cavs, Taylor. (Bc of having high tier ranged troops and for t1-3 I have flat refined gears), Dewey. My question is who could be best combo for my case. Will be glad to get an answer.

[@abirahsan3826]

When you open a new account, you can see those base stats

[@danut1970]

@RedEvony … Aka…again an incredible video. Thank you. Thanks also for the spreadsheet. You should think of private tutoring 😂

[@RedEvony]

Thanks 🙏 glad you enjoyed the video 😊 Yeah, I’m considering doing that 😆 but we’ll see how it goes

[@danut1970]

@@RedEvony you can try it first on me 😜

[@RedEvony]

🤣🤣

[@biohazard911]

So are flat refines the white and purple refines ?

[@BlackGoliath987]

I have the file but it won't open on my device

[@shambhavijoshi1032]

Please share that excel sheet aka that would be quite helpful.

[@RedEvony]

The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 😉👍

[@NYAMETEASE-ep2pv]

Please I'm interested

[@abdullahsaleh3443]

Hello Thank you for the great explanation but my question is what is nonimal??

[@-SeanyBoy-]

buffs are added to base stats. Base + % + flat = total, its not like % are multiplyed so if you add an extra 25% on top of your already buffed 125% you are actually just adding 150% total. if your main stat is 100 then you add 125% to make it 225 when you add the next 25% it is 25 which makes it 250, you are not adding 25% of 225, just 25% of the original #. if that makes sense?

[@ugetit18]

I think to add is also the troop composition while attacking, looking at the range layering where for me t14s are only 10% but t12s are 50%, I have kept flats on ring and % on weapon. Anything about that?

[@RedEvony]

I think that’s alright. Regarding the refines, I have a similar situation on my Ranged General with a mix of percentages and flats. It happened like that coincidentally, but I kept it 😄, so I think you are good there 👍

[@mebemrmine]

Interested in the spreadsheet Aka!

[@RedEvony]

You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@Jseerockhead40]

I know this is unrelated but if i dont have T13 or T14 Siege available, but i have say 500k+ of every siege type T1 through T12 could i take an Epic (gold) sub city with few to no wounded?

[@troybelanger974]

If one has a wall general, with 2 pieces of gear with 4 refine slots each, that's a multiple of 8x. So don't you need to multiply your average flat number of 428 by 8 resulting in 3,424 instead of 428 to use in the spread sheet? Or am I not understanding something.

[@mohamedhassan-fq6fc]

Please share it Aka

[@engalibadouin5222]

Hello, what the difference between ground troop defense and marching ground troop defense?

[@RedEvony]

Ground troop defense works in all situations - both inside and outside your keep. Marching Ground troop defense works only outside your keep 👌

[@lisasantiago943]

I would like a cpy of the spreadsheet please Aka! thank you.

[@RedEvony]

Hi 😊👋 You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@Paxan8]

I would be interested in your spreadsheet

[@RedEvony]

Check the description of the video for the spreadsheet 😉👍

[@phacialoveskakashi2119]

Flat for sub troops then, unless your sub city level makes a troop of level 11 or higher.

[@donaldduck9884]

Hi aka. Where can I find other spreadsheet? Appreciate if you can share if I can find in discord or other site. Thx for this one spreadsheet. Sincerely d duck

[@RedEvony]

I'll have a look at it and see 👍 I thought the link in the description was still working

[@duranvichappi2908]

Quel est le meilleure raffinage pour les généraux de cité vassale ? raffinage à plat ou raffinage en pourcentage ? Merci d'avance AKA.

[@RedEvony]

I usually don’t recommend doing PvP refines on sub city generals. But if you wanted to do it, since most sub city generals are lower level troops, flat refines would be the better option 👌

[@user-bf7zh4jf9l]

Hey Aka! Are the max flat refines different by troop type and equipment? For example for my dragon gear, the max flat siege buff I can get is 311. In your spreadsheet you have the conservative estimate as 428. Is 428 available for higher level weapons (civ gear etc). Thanks!

[@ianbeausejour11]

I believe he mentioned this in his explanation for the percentage that he was using civ gear as the basis for all refines. This explains why you can't get the stats he is showing on your dragon gear. Anything below civ gear will have lower max refine stats that can be achieved. I belive dragon tops out at 20% but I dont' know what the max flat value is.

[@RedEvony]

Yes. The max flat refines are different for troop type and for different gear. 👌 So the max flats on your Dragon gear will definitely be different 😅 However, Civ gear and Ares/Achaemenidae gear have the same max flat refines, but different max % refines.

[@user-bf7zh4jf9l]

Awesome! Thanks for you reply. Appreciate everything you’re doing!

[@midul_khalifa]

so what should be the all troop counts from t10 to t2 for flat refine ? i heard, for t12 and t3 also should be 100m or more for flat refine ok so what's the rest of the troop count should be for flat refine ? like from t10 to t2??

[@RedEvony]

It really depends on the type of defense you are building and also your current power. Some players I’ve seen so far have put a pause on t1s and are now building about 100M t2 and t3. I gave some guidance on troops count for layers in my defense video, so maybe you can check that out 😉 But as a reference: Right now I am 3.6B power and all my layers from t1 - t10 are at least 2M troops each. My t1 cavs are 120M and my t1 ground is about 40M. 🙂

[@midul_khalifa]

@@RedEvony Thank you very much for your reply and your troop details :). My defense general is only for cav flat refine so i am wondering how that 40M ground will work ? but i think i will train them now i guess . have a great day buddy

[@masonicque3577]

Interested in the spreadsheet...

[@RedEvony]

The link to the spreadsheet is in the video description 😉👍

[@mohdjd]

I would like a copy of that sheet pls

[@RedEvony]

You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@allsport4071]

please can you share the sheet file

[@RedEvony]

You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@scholarsanonymous496]

🙌

[@RedEvony]

😁👍

[@BrotherCecil]

I am interested in the spreadsheet

[@RedEvony]

You can find the link to the spreadsheet in the description of the video 👌

[@nyelhakim1664]

Aka are you interested in meeting 1:1 to coach or offer a class? Let me know if you’re interested - would be great to go through how I can improve my game

[@RedEvony]

Send me a mail in-game and we’ll see if we can arrange it 🙂👌

[@leocast435]

Debuffs ia very expensive ! 😊😂

[@EvonyWithBrandon]

This is only true for base level troops, every keep has different base buffs due to tech etc. My t13 has higher base buff than your t14. Meaning it’s going to be different as you progress.

[@RedEvony]

Those buffs you are referring to are NOT the base stats. Those are what I referred to as the “Nominal Stats” in the video. The Nominal Stats will be different for each keep due to research and other things (which I also stated in the video). However, those Nominal Stats are gotten from the Base Stats for the troops. Those Base Stats are the same for every keep in Evony and it is based on those Base Stats that the analysis in the video was done. So in other words, this applies to everyone 🙂👌

[@phacialoveskakashi2119]

And debuffs don't touch flat refine buffs

[@user-vf1fc1nk4i]

Всё отлично, спасибо, осталось выучить английский язык. Субтитры добавьте 🤦

[@RedEvony]

Unfortunately I don’t speak Russian, so doing subtitles might be a bit difficult 😅 There is an auto-translate feature on KZbin (in the player when watching a video) that you can use to translate and get subtitles. It’s not great, but it should help a bit 🙂

[@JNTimperley]

What would happen if your main general had percentage buffs and your assistant general had flat buffs. thinking of how flats is multiplier for strength of low tier troops

[@-SeanyBoy-]

this video is about refines on gear. Nothing would happen because assistants gear does not count, neither does the base attributes or ascention. only specialties (runestones) & skills count (books & main skill) as long as they do not conflict (greyed out) with the main generals.

[@JNTimperley]

What would happen if your main general had percentage buffs and your assistant general had flat buffs

[@mikep509]

Assistant general on the wall... only skill book, specialities, and the generals main skill apply... the rest is useless. Even star level is not needed

[@RedEvony]

Not much unfortunately. Gear doesn’t work on assistant generals. So only your main general will have the buffs

[@crescendo5594]

Flats for low tiers, percents for high tiers. It’s pretty simple to determine. You just have to make a decision on what sort of defense you’re going with.