Flight School's Cancellation Policy Is UNBELIEVABLE | WTTS Pod Ep. 7

I found this memo on Reddit which details a flight school's ridiculous plan to change their cancellation policy. My thoughts are clear..... They pose a significant threat to aviation safety. Read the post here:
www.reddit.com...
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[@scaden55]

I am a student of this school and I just withdrawed today because of many reasons, this being one of them. There are many other policies that are complete cash grabs, this one just got the most publicity because of its blatant disregard for safety. L3 used to be a reputable school with great instructors, good programs, and reasonable prices. In the past 6 months to a year, I have seen nothing but a downward trend in corporate decisions. Outrageous prices, such as $16,000 for just CFI, as well as a complete disregard for student/instructor ADM, Personal Minimums, and respecting time off requests. I did all my ratings with this school, all the way up to my commercial license, and in no way did I ever feel like the "customer". I'm glad this memo is getting posted around the internet, and I hope the school realizes its mistake and revokes this ridiculous policy.

[@jakecostello8400]

How many people withdrew over this policy? Genuinely curious what the state of the school is right now.

[@5YK]

Make that 20k$ for CFI

[@austinformedude]

I saw this as well. Glad they put it in writing so if there is an incident or an accident they can be sued into oblivion. This is insane.

[@LewDixAviation]

Hopefully the backlash will make them change their ways….. it won’t.

[@idekav.]

@@LewDixAviationthey are motivated by money? okay so be it.. lawsuit will make them listen.

[@LewDixAviation]

@@idekav. It all comes back to 💸

[@getpermbanned2692]

@@LewDixAviation the best part was that they signed it with their name and not the company or department

[@joem.7307]

If it has to come to a lawsuit for them to realize, then that means something bad has happened to get them to that point. That’s too late IMO. Staying safe is literally the majority of our training. This memo speaks to the opposite of that mentality.🤔🤷🏽‍♂️

[@av8or971]

This memo should be reported to the FAA for investigation.

[@vdubs1112]

It has been. The Orlando FSDO has assigned an investigator according to a follow up post on Reddit.

[@razorseal]

@@vdubs1112 Not sure what it can do. What regulation is it violating?

[@vdubs1112]

@@razorseal They could pull their 141 certification for starters, because they’re clearly not teaching ADM and personal minimums to the required curriculum with this policy. And they could probably also hit them with 91.13 violations.

[@bubbaman12289]

This makes me feel so much better about my school….i was fresh solo maybe my 3rd flight low ceilings winds were gusty and changing almost 70 degrees non stop and I wasn’t feeling the most confident in going up and my school said I made the right call and be cautious and never charged me for it. Couldn’t be happier with my school

[@LewDixAviation]

Makes me happy to read that there are some places doing it right.

[@broscow123]

Well done for reporting on this. If we aren’t protecting the flying community, then we’ve completely failed. Full stop!!

[@LewDixAviation]

Exactly! Appreciate the support 🙌🏻

[@kimahbeach2260]

My school! See also: have to physically go to campus in order to cancel for weather without a charge. If sick or other non weather issue have to call by 6am or 2 hours before scheduled flight whichever is earlier. So if you wake up sick at 8am you're screwed.

[@treefor5769]

As a current student, glad you called it out and brought it to a greater audience

[@jakecostello8400]

Former L3 student here now flying 734MG.. I’m so happy I Made the decision I did.

[@LewDixAviation]

Welcome to the happier and more fun side of flight training 😎

[@8050144]

After having worked in training and education programs for almost 2 decades, i can say with almost 100% certainty that this policy was made out of frustration rather than rational. All too often businesses operating in these types of spaces are quick to make decisions without taking the time to investigate the 'issue'. And honestly the issue is usually just a handful of unlikely circumstances that happened to overlap or be consecutive. I can also venture to guess that they did not inquire their students regarding cancellations. If they had, they probably would have discovered a more appropriate solution. Lastly i will suggest that this punitive policy is harming the majority of students who don't cancel often or at all. If business owners and their employees would grow up and have honest conversations with customers about issues they see happening, they wouldn't have to pull stupid stunts like these.

[@randc47]

That is absurd! When I was a student, I trained at a great school and had an amazing CFI. I could, and often did, cancel for a number of reasons and nobody questioned anything or charged me. If I saw that nonsense, I would be out immediately! F that!

[@theroadto1500]

That’s unfortunately what happens when greed takes over an industry. Bad schools and aviation organizations are still and will keep going because they own the market. Just supply-and-demand, plus new pilots also not knowing any better. All we can do is teach and raise awareness. It’s unfortunate that most students will find out only after being screwed over, but it’s nice that creators like you are bringing attention to the issue. I’m sure many students will be able to avoid the scummy places as a result. We need more independent CFIs to stop the rise of the scammy school era.

[@rabitrouh]

I have been saying this for years. I get that going the independent route is tough, which is the main reason I’ll personally stick to commercial and maybe instruct after ATP. But it’s unfortunate how many new pilots are being and will be taken advantage of, because schools do not care about them. People care about people. Good independent CFIs are the way.

[@vdubs1112]

Yeah something tells me they won't be getting the return on investment they had hoped on this policy. The whole aviation world is rightfully ripping them to shreds online. As a CFI the fact that their chief was willing to sign his name to this document is absolutely mind-boggling.

[@LewDixAviation]

Yea this one will not be swept under the rug. A chief flight instructor agreeing to put their name on that document needs to step away and reconnect with aviation and flight training. That’s the mark of someone who has lost touch with what’s important.

[@jakehardy5997]

Reminds me of a shop I worked at as a scuba instructor who was mad we lost money on a charter because I decided to cancel a charter when the visibility was 2 feet (couldn’t even see my hand in the water). Yeah, for some reason the owner couldn’t comprehend why I would rather not lose scuba divers over losing money 🧐

[@LewDixAviation]

That’s incredible 😲

[@davidbakerscuba]

I used to be a scuba diving instructor here in Orlando and this story sounds pretty familiar.

[@Aqua_Productions_]

love your stuff, i’m working on my private pilot right now and your videos help so much and are so entertaining😂

[@LewDixAviation]

Ah thank you! Glad you enjoy my work!

[@edwardfinucci2258]

Dude, you have found a gap in the market, capitalize on it. Start your own school. You have a dedicated following you will do well. Took the leap in my 20s to start my own business and never looked back

[@carlosmontalvo4351]

Even as a 300hr PPL I wouldn't be flying XC VFR in 3SM 2000 ceilings.

[@LewDixAviation]

Me either as a 3500 hour pilot

[@aliciamacdonald8149]

Good job talking about this...!!!

[@Gandor1]

I will never forget my first 9 day. I had heard Jason Schappert talk about it but never experienced it. We hear visibility 10 all the time, how bad can 9 really be? However, those 10s are really 25-30 or even further. As for 2000 ft for a xc, no way am I heading to Crystal River scud running over the green swamp. It would be interesting to hear what some of the school's instructors think about being forced to "teach" in some of these conditions.

[@mortekaieve4729]

My school has never questioned a weather call, just the opposite. They'll commend you for making a no-go decision. At one point early in my training I had a discussion with my instructor and he called it off for winds that were safe but simply made the flight less productive than it could be at my skill level at that time. As I progressed those minimums increased, but what's the point in making someone go up and fight the airplane for over an hour rather than learning in a positive way? We will push those minimums a bit at a time to increase skill and comfort, of course. It's astonishing to me that this wouldn't be how every school practices. I couldn't believe it when I read this.

[@nikivan]

Lol, at least they have some minimums. My flight school does NOT allow cancellations due to weather. From a recent email sent to all students: "Plan to attend your reservation in all situations, clear skies or low ceiling, it doesn’t matter.", and "Instructors and Students are NOT permitted to cancel via Dispatch based on TAF (or current ATIS when the flight is later in the day) or based on trivial rationale. The weather often clears by flight time.".

[@DS-hz4ie]

Hopefully the FAA sees this and smacks this school down a couple of notches. It's just crazy to (almost) force STUDENTS to fly at what amounts to legal minimums. There's LEGAL, SAFE, and STUPID. I'm leaning towards calling this policy the last one.

[@PghGameFix]

I have mixed thoughts on this too. 1) To expect an IR student to plan a flight to min is STUPID !!!!!!!! Heck, some low hour CFII may not have what it takes to go to min on a rough day. AND.... you would have to plan, an alternate for a training flight. 2) 3sm on a PPL Xcountry is DUMB !! (Assuming it's a solo xcountry) I was doing a commercial Xcountry the other day, and called in for a pop-up, so we all know how things can change. It's not good even on a dual to take a new PPL into those conditions if they are forecasted. But I think schools need to put a cancelation policy in place. If you don't agree with that school's policy, then find another school. (or an independent CFI) I'm an older guy working on career 2.0 and I'm getting my commercial. I can't tell you how often I want to fly, and the schedule is packed. But then I will look later in the day, and I'll see several earlier open slots because people canceled last minute on a perfectly clear day. I hear it a lot from our instructors how they should have had 5 or 6 flying hours and only got 2. This is a real problem with a flight school that is tied to a college program. The up side is... the kids are going home for the summer, and I will get to fly. With that said, our school has it from a safety side. PPL CAN'T go up in anything higher than 20kts, or with a 10kt cross wind and VFR min. (solo xcountry is up to the instructor) IR is 30 with 15kt cross wind, and 500 above min... and commercial..... "Figure it out" LOL. You have every right to be upset with what they posted as PPL min, because it's right against the "IMSAFE" program and will put people in danger.

[@joem.7307]

Bro, I had to cancel a flight tonight and my instructor was totally cool/understanding. The weather/clouds was definitely a factor and beneath personal minimums for a night flight for me. It wasn’t a super important flight so we decided to reschedule and I feel good about it. 🤷🏽‍♂️🤜🏼🤛🏼

[@richard_muschette3009]

Hey mate, its always good to listen to your information, you are an amazing CFI, lm watching all the way from Poland today...

[@LewDixAviation]

Ahh thank you so much mate!

[@richard_muschette3009]

@@LewDixAviation Hey Dix l am an Aerospace Engineering Graduate and a PPL pilot here in the UK, so when l come to the USA we will meet up for sure...

[@jeffsherman91]

As a few others said, don’t be afraid to out the specific school. People's LIVES are worth saving. I'm surprised that no one mentioned that it is clear that this school tries to make money in other ways as well. If this is their (very dangerous) policy, imagine how they have their instructors just let everyone pay through plateaus rather than trying to actually solve problems and get students through them. Imagine the way they must cut corners on MAINTENANCE!!! I can’t imagine flying anywhere at under at least 3,000’ or so - with one exception of having to fly a narrow corridor under a Class B shelf. I've been in some “iffy” situations, all with an instructor, and NONE where I felt out of my league. Once time, coming back to KVNY from the practice area, we got ATIS, and the instructor asked me, “What's the maximum crosswind component in this plane?” (It was a 172, and maximum crosswind is maximum DEMONSTRATED crosswind). “15 knots.” “What's the current crosswind component?” “A little over 16 knots.” He just nodded, and we continued to land, and as I recall, it was actually a pretty decent landing. But that wasn’t really unsafe because we'd know LONG before getting close to the ground whether we had enough control authority. We also were doing what I think were commercial turns around a point (where you have to hold the wingtips facing the point - that was a long time ago). He liked to have me do much harder stuff than necessary. And this was in 30 knots winds. It was a learning experience, certainly nothing resembling unsafe, but sadly, the only time I've ever gotten queasy flying (try going around and around in circles ten times in 30 knot winds). And I don’t blame him, and we immediately stopped, flew straight, and then went back and landed. Different instructor, flying through smoke from wildfires. Didn’t look bad, not even a mention on ATIS, and you could see the ground right below you (even from 3,000’). But looking horizontally, there was literally no visible horizon. It was instrument flying in not technically IMC, and she asked if I wanted to continue and I said yeah, and had absolutely no problem with it. Good practice. Would I have done it on a solo? Hell no. Big difference, though, in practicing sticky situations with an instructor when it is clearly safe to do so, and with everyone's approval, versus some school forcing you to do it.

[@kallmehk3453]

I’m trying to start flight school. Any recommendations for school . I’m in Hollywood FL.

[@bigrich2980]

It's just sad man. Chasing an aviation dream is already more expensive than most can afford to chase, but then you get garbage like what these schools are doing. It is truly sad.

[@LewDixAviation]

It’s certainly a sorry state. I’ve watched it deteriorate over the last 8 years I’ve been instructing. So sad.

[@texstar77]

So happy that the company I work for puts safety first! We even have the ultimate safety handle! Safety First!!

[@Dave-fy4ec]

Unbelievable indeed, very happy that where I fly, if there is questionable weather you'll call up and they already know you're cancelling, becasue there is no pressure and everyone else already cancelled

[@TheGoomba102IsOnYouTube]

Something my instructor and a couple other comments have said, I really dont think some people realize how bad 3 mile visibility actually looks

[@simonmurray8220]

It is always unfortunate when a flight school implements this kind of policy and refers to acceptable weather when it is more likely they simply wish to avoid loss of revenue due to last minute cancellations caused by lack of student motivation and students not understanding that when they don’t turn up or cancel at short notice it not only adversely affects the school but other students as well. Ultimately this increases costs of training as schools must consider revenue losses both expected and not in an environment of increasing overhead costs. Good schools understand that they are foremost an education provider and that instructor and aircraft hire are often affected by uncontrollable variables such as weather, maintenance etc. There is a very simple way for schools to remain profitable if they reorganise where in a course revenue is charged for ground and flight training. Largest costs are imputed in an aircraft perhaps that is not profitable but other education activities definitely can be. The school in question has an inherited management problem it seems!

[@andybarth689]

Unbelievable! Personal minimums are just that… Surprised they didn’t say “No go arounds for any reason! You wasting fuel and time on aircraft! You land the plane or you won’t fly again!” 😂

[@scaden55]

No we love go arounds because that means more time on the hobbs, so more money the student has to pay 👍

[@ThomasGaynor-zc1qt]

Where did you get the map of Florida with the LEDs as the airports

[@BD-ko1wi]

Some of those minimums are pretty wild but I see what they are doing. I’ve had students that have cancelled three or four times in a row. Most no call no show. We have a policy that they can be billed for that. They are removing the ability for someone else to fly and for the instructor to not waste their time. It creates a huge problem. My old school had a 24 hour cancellation policy. If you cancelled for anything g not weather related you got billed. It doesn’t take long to keep people from scheduling lessons they have no intention of flying.

[@user-jh5fm7ci6o]

I agree. The CFI and school sets realistic weather minimums for the students. I had to cancel a couple of my solo flights due to not meeting weather min. No issue canceling. I only cancelled after the 24 hours limit two times. One for a solo flight, the free way was closed down all day and no way to get to the airport. The other was, I woke up sick. I did call in both times the morning of letting them know. The school did not charge me for either cancellation. The reason is I have been reliable otherwise and never missed any other flights. They really do not want you flying sick either. The Dispatch lady will know who you are and can figure out if you are a flake or it's a valid excuse. My flight school is very fair and safe.

[@humptydumpty3345]

I don’t agree with that because it incentivizes students to not follow their PAVE or IMSAFE checklists and personal minimums, and pressures them to fly when they may be feeling under the weather, didn’t get enough sleep, or are going through a rough patch mentally. Some days you just wake up and don’t feel like flying and it should be acceptable to cancel a flight for any reason WITH PROPER NOTICE… personally as a student I don’t think I would fly at a school that had a policy regarding billing me for anything other than weather. Makes me feel unsafe.

[@PrivateCitizen7]

Wow. I am a new pilot (under 100 hours) and will not fly XC with less than 4500 ceiling, local practice with less than 3000, and pattern 2000. I won’t fly at all in crosswind > 10kts. As for visibility, I really want 6+ miles. If there’s even a chance of a thunderstorm, I’m watching from my porch. Maybe I’m too conservative but those are my personal minimums based on my comfort and limited experience.

[@Zalaniar]

Nah. We need to stop being so....scared? idk the right word to use....of outing these types of businesses by name. We need to shout this type of thing loudly from the rooftops so people know what they're getting into when they choose to go into these types of relationships. If someone is looking at L3Harris, looking up reviews, this is the type of video they need to find....and Lewis, you should be helping them find it by putting L3Harris in the title, saying it in the video, putting it in the description, make it so this is the first thing that comes up when someone searches them. You should care enough about student pilots to warn them and say hey, this is the name of the school you should stay away from! And I don't get why people do this, call out a business/person doing something shady (or plain illegal) and refrain from calling them out by name. F that....call them out by name! Especially being that you're in the Orlando area and may have more reach to pilots in that area. Potential student pilots in the SFB / Orlando area: L3Harris is a shady school that put out a dangerous cancellation policy encouraging pilots to make unsafe decisions. Do not give them a dime of your money or a minute of your time. David M Krug Jr., their chief flight instructor, who signed this memo, should be losing all his instructor certificates and credentials. Do not accept instruction from him. Let's run them out of business!

[@LewDixAviation]

There are people in the back that didn’t hear you.. shout it louder!!

[@dalzmar]

Very Sad for the students at this school, I pray that they get enough push back that they are forced to correct this terrible error in judgement. These minimums are lower than a lot of pilot's personal minimums, and to push a student pilot into setting out into such outrageous conditions is not only just bad ADMing but really sets the school up for possible legal blow back should God forbit some student is pressured into conducting a flight in those barely legal conditions only to have them hurt their self trying to tackle a situation they don't have the skill set to handle. I'm at a loss for words, but if I happened to be a student at this school I would be looking for an alternative.

[@alk672]

Here I am sitting here fuming over my club discouraging touch and goes due to maintenance costs... and then I see a flight school forcing private students to do long cross-countries in 3 miles visibility under 2000ft ceilings.

[@jsprague2453]

2:58 As both an instrument rated pilot and former employee of a college aviation program myself...uhh...those minimums. Lol. So they're saying a private student on a westbound XC and a ceiling they can't get above gets to do said XC at 500 feet? 🤔

[@jsprague2453]

Oh, dear lord. It's MY former flight school, twice or three times removed from its then-name. You'd have thought they would have learned something after they binned a Cirrus a few years ago.

[@digitaldyslexia7589]

I flew in marginal 4, 4 1/2 in the pattern once. I couldn't believe people would choose to fly VFR in 3SM. I would even say 5-6 is closer to my personal minimums

[@LewDixAviation]

Exactly. Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean you should fly in it.

[@Calvin-xp4qp]

Fly Safe...? Off topic, why did the FAA stop mandatory spin recovery for student pilots? I'm aging myself but that was some of the best and honest training I received while getting my PPL

[@ludo5866]

This is totally unbelievable. How can people decides to put their instructors and young pilot in so risky condition... Nothing about minimum number of wings to start a flight? 😅

[@Peacewind152]

This memo... is something I expected out of the fictional flight school in the satire "CFI: The Book"... not from a real life FTU.

[@david5hwtjn]

Well said buddy.

[@LewDixAviation]

Thanks brother!

[@BouillaBased]

I can only assume they do ground school, as well. And if that's the case, what's the point in teaching ground school subjects like meteorology and human performance, if every lesson is to be ignored by the instructors? Honestly, a cancellation policy can be very simple: Flights can be cancelled on any occasion where the student and/or instructor feel unsafe in proceeding as planned, for any reason they can justify. This gives the student independent agency, as any pilot deserves and should demand, a consciousness of their safety and the safety of those around them, and the ability to think the situation through and explain it. It doesn't matter if it's 1500' ceilings and 2 mile visibility, or if they had a major fight with their partner and their head isn't in it.The pilot is supposed to be the one making the decisions on when to fly. Instructors are supposed to be the ones guiding the students through that extremely dangerous low-hours period when their confidence can create situations that their experience can't get them out of. The company is supposed to be there to manage the assets and make those first two things possible. When business intrudes on safe instruction, it's time for that business to fail, and fail hard before someone gets hurt or killed.

[@JohnSmith-sj5os]

I'm not going to be flying in any area near a convective SIGMET.

[@LewDixAviation]

Good call

[@johnny1608]

I can almost guarantee it’s not that it’s just a non-excusable….. I’m positive that whatever time slot you have taken up ,in which you choose to cancel, you are then penalized and that time slot rate is then charged to your bill. I can see somebody having a penalty charge for a student who just no-shows(all too common) to pay for a portion of your instruction time which was waisted. It’s not about making better pilots or even understanding how difficult the joureny is. Its about milking every dollar regardless. One thing I personally enjoy if giving free instruction to ppl who specially are having a harder time getting through training. There aren’t options for that personal choice in a lot of these programs now.

[@bubbaman12289]

Ps no flights in convective ….bro we’re in Florida the whole state is a convective…. This guy is probably not a smart

[@LewDixAviation]

😂

[@italiano100]

Sounds like another flight school about to go belly up, this flight school has changed names at least half a dozen times in the past 10 years, what'll it be next....Thing is, when they go out of business and the chief flight instructor goes to get his next job, that name will be remembered and a decision to hire will be unlikely, hope it was worth it

[@kallmehk3453]

What’s the school name? Someone help me…

[@alk672]

I only saw what 3 miles visibility looks like from the air twice. The first time I went with a CFI who was instrumented rated in an IFR capable aircraft, and the other time I was caught out by forest fire smoke and had to come back and land immediately. The scariest thing I've ever seen while airborne, do not do it. The main thing about it is if it gets any worse - and why shouldn't it - you're completely blind.

[@zxr92]

So much for personal minimums and IMFAST too! 😮

[@garyradtke3252]

Who makes this schools policies? Their bean counters?

[@masonhenslee5905]

It's a domino effect. The students of this flight school will think that this is how it is, that this is okay, and then they'll think this is considered safe practice. I wish more flight schools and instructors would stop and think, that they are teaching the next generation of aviators, whom will be inhabiting the same skies with commercial airliners. SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY!!!!

[@ruairitiernan8727]

This is actually crazy wtf

[@StorBenn]

You'd be surprised how common this is nowadays at flight schools.

[@LewDixAviation]

It’s one big reason I don’t work for flight schools. Too many bad experiences and horror stories.

[@andrewmillns1757]

Great videos. Love watching them. Can't find any videos but have you any NVFR?? and any advice when doing it??

[@JB_Hobbies]

Cancellation policies are questionable to begin with, but this is way beyond out of bounds.

[@miked2662]

That doesn’t pass the smell test.

[@matthewrammig]

What do you mean?

[@Vondoodle]

Wow

[@LewDixAviation]

That about sums it up

[@SaqeebKhan910]

🐐

[@irishcurse65]

I flew in visibility of 3nm while doing IR training. I would never fly in that VFR. School creating hazardous conditions. Conditions can worsen very quickly from 3NM vs 10NM. Can you imagine a student on a 50nm cross country have visibility at 3NM and have it worsen half way there? Thy are going to kill students. I wonder if their insurance company got this memo? Geeky comments. Riddle sleeps in their foggles . Snort laughed on that one

[@Aviatorpeck1957]

Scary!!!