Florida State football recruiting, roster review

The Nolecast is the most successful and longest running Florida State podcast. Bud Elliott and Ingram Smith focus mainly on football, but also dabble in baseball and basketball. Please support the show by using our sponsors: Louisiana Hot Sauce, Tarpon Cellars Winery, The Legendary Home Loans team, Congruity Solutions, and Charlie Park.
The show also supported by our Patrons at / nolecast
www.tarponcell...
www.fsuhomeloa...
congruityhr.co...
www.TheBattles...

[@yomeich]

Shannon and Odell need to go. Odell needs an off field administrative/ceremonial title, as he has earned a statue for his contributions but is becoming a liability due to how easy it is to recruit against him. Context matters a lot here, and Mario and staff are great recruiters with bags. Eventually the talent will overcome their inept coaching. You could afford to leave ho hum recruiters on staff when other staffs were on the hot seat, but this is no longer the case. Not being able to pull a blue chip DLiner vs UF is super concerning, as that staff looks to be on the way out given this year's struggles and next year's schedule. Shannon... Enough said, as the episode mentioned. Jury is still out on Atkins, but he has managed to pull some HS blue chippers to earn the time to see them grow into starters.

[@brianwilkinson356]

Completely agree but you didn't mention JP. I love his STs but dude can't pull a HS blue chip DE to save his life

[@hurleyrush3509]

Agree 100% on the grades for each position. You need to recruit dawgs in the trenches to win championships.

[@1mlf1886]

This staff develops guys pretty well. Look at Farmer, Patrick, Toafili, M. Douglass, Deloach, Lundy, Green, Portier, Brown, Dent. Then Look at the o- line(Smith, Washington and Scott). None of these guys were thought to be pros but look at them

[@JFABALL2022]

I don't believe anything regarding FSU football till I hear it on the Nolecast.

[@1mlf1886]

Moore can run all the routes. Elite route runner

[@johnny5735]

College football has become a total 💩 show. I love FSU, but i'm losing interest very fast with the direction the game has gone and the way it's headed .

[@Mr.Wonderful731]

Yeah man i feel the same.

[@tnole260]

Luke Kromenhoek is pronounced crow-men-hawk

[@jaimefish173]

With the NIL its going cost programs boosters 25-30 million a year depending on how many players you pick up. Approximately 1 mill a player.

[@aliceinpetland]

I just don’t understand why all these folks feel the need to go out of their way to hate and criticize FSU, like even fans of teams that don’t ever cross paths with the Seminoles? It’s gotta be one of those social media trends. The “cool” thing to do because you all don’t have anything better to do than run your mouths.

[@DivulgeInfinity66]

Misery loves company. That’s a quote that embodies the CFB landscape. Fans love to build their teams up and jump at any opportunity to bring other teams down. Especially ones that are in the limelight, like FSU this year.

[@flch95]

That’s why I blocked all FB posts that are general CFB and necessarily FSU specific. I’m done with the mass stupidity. Not sure what it is about CFB that makes people generally unlikeable.

[@aliceinpetland]

@@flch95 Exactly! I mean, wow. Some of these people just go way too far. Like making fun of injuries and hoping for injuries?? It’s a GAME. You are wishing harm and ill will against a bunch of kids you don’t even know personally like they all just came to your house and kicked your puppy! I’m all about the normal fun with competitive chatter, but, some of these people carry so much hate in their hearts… it must be exhausting to be so miserable all the time.

[@tezoda1]

I mean I’m not gonna lie it’s just what people do honestly and it’s sad. If people hear and see a lot of people hate on FSU, then guess what they are gonna do… It’s just sad tho fr, like have your own view on the team, don’t just piggy back off of some dumb mf on ESPN. Not every person on ESPN is bad either or even all of the media, it’s just a lot of them. They other thing is that we obviously bring the views so they are basically making money and getting views from hating on our team and it’s just sad. Treating us like shit ain’t the way to go and I believe we will prove this going forward. These dumb mfs need to stop hiding behind a camera while talking bad about us, like just watch the games and make real takes

[@johncolella1]

Come on now. Haters gonna hate. We know this.

[@chrisanderson7984]

This is one of the craziest FSU seasons I’ve seen. I’ve been a fan since the early 90’s.

[@Countrysoul521]

Norvell did a good job with this recruiting class this his best yet but there are major red flags at some position groups u can't continue recruiting these premium positions this poorly the best players come from HS recruiting the portal can't save u everytime. We missed a chance to widening the gap on our rivals,Norvell must add some recruiters to this staff look what Surtain did in less then a year compared to other guys who been here longer, there a disconnect with some of our recruiting efforts and coaches.

[@jaimefish173]

Offensive line, Offensive line Offensive line.

[@rustybronco]

The Snub has absolutely had negative effects on recruiting and portal. Cemented SEC dominance for the next decade. Outside of your circle people are still talking about it. Here, in central FL, people walk up to me at the grocery store, seeing my fsu gear, and make a.comment about the Noles being screwed. It's a big deal.

[@crisco-crispy8509]

Any names been tossed around for LB coach?

[@Nole1992]

We have to understand that recruiting HS kids is a long term thing. We’ve had 2 good seasons. You start recruiting guys when they are in 9th/10th grade. Well, we weren’t very good when this group was in those grades. We should benefit from these two seasons going forward

[@jamesbloomfield6709]

explain Miami then

[@Pingram26]

Bud, we appreciate you for keeping it real most of the time, but telling everybody this was NOT a playoff winning team even with Jordan was trying to be too right and hurt the team. It was a TEAM that could have won with defense. I’m not trying to say you’re big enough to affect ESPN media cause you’re not, but you may want to stop with the subjective opinions on this show

[@happyman42]

It genuinely baffles me the knocks on FSU while 60% of these 5 stars don't work out. Anyone want to talk about Demorie Tate? Max Browne? Carl Lawson? 11 times since 2017 has a pass rush finished in the top 5 of NFL sacks that was a 4 or 5 star. 25 times a 3 star or lower finished in the top 5 of sacks in the NFL since 2017. What are we even discussing?

[@bill33371]

The issue with HS recruiting misses is that it creates more leverage for the current players in that position group in Portal/NIL negotiation which drives the cost of retention/replacement up due to desperation. Good for the player, bad for the team; and a position group can't be held hostage by a player or two due to no competitive depth behind them.

[@LoCoVANole]

College football is a disaster at the moment. It’s truly the Wild West and going downhill fast.

[@dartwick5415]

U look at all the top 6 recruiting classes in the country and all of them have learned under Saban recruiting at a high level besides Ryan Day who learned from a great recruiter in Urban Meyer. Steve Sarkasian,Mario Cristobal and Kirby Smart all worked under Saban in his dynasty era. Dan Lanning learned from Kirby who was under the Saban Tree. Napier had a top 5 class before games got played he also learned under Saban recruiting skills. All those coaches got to learn how to recruit vs the big dogs something Norvell didn't learn at this high level coming from Memphis. Norvell is still learning this recruiting and closing at a elite level he's going to have make sone changes and demand more from his coaches. He's a great coach I believe he will get the job done and keep us Climbing.

[@edl7454]

Did you forget that Lanning coached under Norvell?

[@Blueboi53]

I think it's a one yr delay in correlation to the record affecting the recruiting...most recruits commit during the spring & summer so this class is a result of them winning 10 games in '22 and next year's will be better because they went undefeated

[@tinamanouli6289]

What a naive analysis by Eliott! A talking head uses as criteria for evaluating a recruting class a ranking system made from other talking heads who rank the recruits. I do not think that this is an absolute and accurate way to evaluate. I argue that Norvell's evaluation criteria are far more accurate than those used to assign stars to the recruits by some people who only have a superficial knowledge of football. Norvell has the criteria of a successful football coach and he is also very well aware of what fits in his program. He proved that when made an offer to Luke well before any other talking head knew Luke. You seem to admit that Norvell's coaching staff know what they are doing as far as coaching. If you do, why don't you also admit that they know to more accurately evaluate recruits as compared to those evaluators, such as yourself who are no better that the ESPN talking heads! If what you are saying were to be correct, it would not explain the success of Norvell's previous recruiting classes. The talking heads were ranking the last two FSU recruiting classes as ~20th. However, they ended up #5 in the Nation and undefeated. You might argue that part of this is coaching, however, it is reasonably to assume that part a larger part of this is also more accurate evaluation criteria and looking for best fits, as opposed to blindly going after those ranked high by some talking heads. What I am saying is this: Ask yourself what is the error bar in the ranking order of a class. We can see that it is fairly large. For example, FSU missed on just 2 recruits this time and fell from 3rd to 9th according to 247. How strongly do you believe that this 5* kid who defected the last minute was going to make it as a great player at FSU. We had 5* recruits who did not succeed. We had 3* recruits, like Jordan Travis who helped raise the program from well outside the top 25 to the top 10. So, how do you know if this current class is not the best relative class in the country. By "relative" I mean the combination of best recruits and best fit and better if all the recruits were to be evaluated by coaches and not some analysts. For me a good recruiter is not someone who says the words that the recruits want to hear, but rather someone who spends his time evaluating the recruit (who maybe unknown, like Luke) to find the best recruit and best fit. Your attitude and a similar attitude of others act to dissipate the recent success of the program. Be wise. Being smart is not enough. A wise man is one whose ego is smaller than his intelligence level.

[@jonesy]

I mean, Verse was a 0 star. These recruiting services will rise uncommitted kids as well as raise kids for a team with the most subscribers. Look at 247 Landon Thomas was a 5 star when committed to Georgia he goes to fsu and drops to the 4th best TE? Lol

[@huntersteele4211]

Nobodies reading all that but Buds analysis was extremely fair

[@tinamanouli6289]

In addition: Everybody seems to be fixated with HS recruiting class. You are using out-dated thinking. Why should I hire HS recruits if I can take established plug and play players from the portal? 1) A high school recruit is not a guaranteed success at the college level, he is a potentially good player. 2) I might pay him for 2 years and he is taking a spot in my roster for 2 years, wasting coaching staff time for 2 years before I can see results positive or negative. 3) I spent 2 years to prepare the player from HS and then he decides to hit the transfer portal. So, I have to have a strong NIL program and I can use the portal to take players who are proven at the college level and fit my program. What is the point of spending all the effort if I develop them and someone else take them from the portal? Why did I waste my time, money, resources and now I have to start from scratch if the player leaves to replace him. In a few years time, when equilibrium of this new process is reached, only the programs with well funded NIL programs will be the best in CFB.

[@tinamanouli6289]

Here are two points which prove the weak nature of Elliott's basis for criticizing the recruiting ability of FSU coaching staff: 1. He does not seem to have a grasp of elementary statistical analysis. Statistical data have fluctuations which define the size of the error of your estimate about a quantity you are trying to measure its most probable value. This error scales with 1/sqrt(N-1) where N is the sample size. Notice that for sample size of N=1, this error explodes to infinity. For example, if you want to get an estimate of who is going to win the next elections and you ask only one person, your error in enormously large. Because if you ask one potential voter, he will vote for someone for sure. If you take that totally random opinion seriously you are an ignorant person. In a similar way if you consider the effect of a single high school recruit (such as Bolden) to evaluate a recruiting program you are ignorant of the statistical character of the process. Let's say for playing the devel's advocate that this kid, having seeing the glorification of Travis Hunter a couple of year ago and the attention he received by dumping FSU, being from the same state and the same position group, decided to play the same game . Say, that he wanted to commit to GA but he wanted some further controversy by "humiliating" FSU. This drops FSU from top 3 to outside the top 5. Are you going to critiicize the program for that? If you do you are making a foolish mistake because it is a sample of size 1. 2. According to 247 Miami had the number 3 or 4 recruiting class. However, the average per recruit grade is lower that the FSU's per recruit grade. The reason for Miami climb is that they signed 27 recruits as compared to FSU's 22. This means that the per recruit quality is better for FSU than Miami. Adding more lower quality recruits is not an achievement. FSU could do that. However, the number of players in a programs is bounded from above to something like 85. Therefore, FSU did better than Miami because they have room now to add better players through the transfer program. I want to close noting my great appreciation to the work of Igram Smith with the NIL. We thank you, sir for everything you are doing. Elliot can continue his pursuit of personal success by working together with the national media, where they offer nothing to no-one but themselves and the media.

[@langstondah5219]

I'm not a MN fan but look at his results. His recruiting is getting better but it's not elite by any stretch and I can understand the frustration of many fans. But the coaching is SO GOOD, that thr development of the players really take the sting out of missing on top recruits. Look at the results ON FIELD...you are what your record says you are. 5-7 to 10-3 to 13-0. And look at the team he has coming back with Ward or DJU QB-ing. That's all you need to know. Not the biggest fan but his record says everything he needs to say. He has earned deference on the QB and recruiting. FBA/B1

[@ericbabe87]

Comparing Thomas to O’Leary perked me the hell up. While it’s cool to have the next NFL all pro at TE, I’m also taking O’Leary’s FSU career 100 times out of 100. Insanely valuable piece to that era of FSU. Happy with this class, obviously some areas to work on. The crossroads the staff is on feels weird. Obviously I love their ability to coach/develop but I’d love for them to be better recruiters but… if you have to sacrifice the development? Hell man idk.

[@brianwilkinson356]

I believe they need to be more assertive/aggressive with these kids. This staff openly admits that they make the OVs as laid back as possible with no pressure on the kids to commit. I need them to push a little harder. It makes the kids feel wanted and everyone likes to feel wanted.

[@williamritchie6623]

LB and DL needs work

[@kevinwoods2585]

Sad hearing that FSU will view 2024 as a “rebuild” year 😮I’m not sure what the expectations of FSU is?

[@tomroberts9794]

Norvell's recruiting has improved every year. Two years ago it was hating on Dugsns. Last year it was Adam. We've just gone 13-0. Our biggest issue is a bitchin', whinin,' 'I know better than the coaches', soreheaded fans, and commentators. FSU is doing great snd will do better. Let the naysayers go to h*ll. GO NOLES BEAT UGA.

[@brianwilkinson356]

Tate could probably start at a FCS school or maybe like MAC type of conference. The kid just didn't have that "it" factor. He was a solid backup though

[@MarvinBerry-ez9zo]

Bud, How does Michigan get to 3 straight CFP's with the last their last 4 recruiting classes ranked 12, 13,12,20 and 2024's current class is ranked 20?

[@jakehutchison5761]

Imma be honest the CFP may have just killed college football for me. I have ZERO interest anymore. Go Noles I wish you all the best

[@jackhamm7745]

But Bud, you've always said that the current season success plays a much smaller role in recruiting than you would think. Or does that not apply to 13-0 seasons?

[@dgg2999]

Am surprised FSU hasn’t gotten the QB for next year already. Once you get the QB settled then everything will fall into place. Yeah a lot of guys in the portal but the talent is shrieking. I will wait to see what happens in the portal this year to decide how I feel. Let’s be honest a lot of us have started to contribute to the collectives so for those of us who are contributing we don’t want to feel like our money is going to waste. It really does suck this is what college football is turning into

[@mikebrown8116]

Yo Bud is it true China bought IMG for a Billi???? SERIOUS QUESTION

[@ericbabe87]

How messy are we into the possible Odell situation= the end of Bobby’s era? Real close? We there already? Far off?

[@brianwilkinson356]

I believe they need to be more assertive/aggressive with these kids. This staff openly admits that they make the OVs as laid back as possible with no pressure on the kids to commit. I need them to push a little harder. It makes the kids feel wanted and everyone likes to feel wanted.

[@antball775]

Norvell has done a good job so far but now the real hard job starts now you have to do it every year because now its expected it’s starts with a good showing against Georgia you might not win but don’t get stomped

[@henryhenry2752]

Who's the QB gonna be? That's all we wanna know...lol

[@JohnnyBushwhacker-yv6bc]

There should be a separate national title for recruiting nerds.

[@KelvinNole136]

Of this incoming class who would b a good fit for punt return? Friar?

[@AdamGoNoles]

Orange Bowl bound let's go family

[@aliceinpetland]

For crying out loud, the answer to all of these questions is M.O.N.E.Y.

[@SasoCasablanca63]

100%

[@Tonysillyano]

Bud with the opt out zinger at the end

[@carnivoredad7285]

I think Norvell has the right and true approach to recruiting. He's straight up with the players. You come here we're going to really work you and get the very best out of you; and we're not going to blow smoke up your ass. In today's culture, these kids love the attention and they're used to getting validation for just picking up the phone and having smoke blown up their asses. Novell has an approach that resonates integrity and that will lose you some, but the one's that come will make a much better team. It's become axiomatic that talent alone does not win in team sports. There also if the matter of NIL. You're 18 and they are literally talking about six figures or more. That will turn your head.

[@mdutchy2582]

It seems like maybe FSU went all in budget wise for this year. They got screwed and now it'll be a while before they will be that good again without big money?

[@rwilmer3886]

My take is Yes getting better year after year, both in recruiting and on the felid. Now with the negativity of our fans and media! They make an impact also. With improving players going to the Draft, showing were a top 15 program consistently, especially 2024. Recruits will see a stable program who compete at the highest level. Without influencers or want to be influencers setting a negative atmosphere for likes and add money!

[@jawayne224]

Ingram, where can i get one of those posters with the lights on it for my mancave

[@rememberme5279]

Any news on CW or DJU from the transfer portal?

[@chesberger4474]

Is FSU ever going to add any players?

[@mikemyrick1458]

What's up fellas GO NOLES #MIKEGOTUS

[@enterprise1911]

4:45 great question, Bud!

[@jaysmith7725]

We need to start getting some killer, defensive lineman, and even better linebackers. Got to get better linebackers.

[@stephenkelley6268]

This staff doesn’t value linebackers, we only play 2, it’s just not an important position in this defense. Now we 💯 need better DL recruiting.

[@crisco-crispy8509]

Good discussion

[@BSmitty4rm8Fitty]

Odell needs to be done with. His recruiting has been lackluster lately and we can't keep living off past merits. I will venture to say that even developmental wise, he's shown very little. Fiske was who he was before Odell but outside of him, there is nothing but average play.

[@timlscott]

It's crucial to acknowledge that The Battles End plays a role in FSU's success in recruiting also. If the recruiting staff sets up prospects for TBE to finish with a financial package, and falls short in their offers, it limits the coaches' options. When recruits receive more lucrative offers from other collectives that may or may not overpay for players, it raises questions about FSU’s coaches and their approach and challenges faced in securing commitments instead of TBE. How much blame should be assessed to The Battles End?

[@CM-jc7gk]

Why would anybody blame Battles End? TBE needs people to give them money; a program like Georgia unsurprisingly has extremely deep NIL pockets.

[@aceboogie5819]

Tim gets it

[@CM-jc7gk]

@@aceboogie5819 so you're suggesting TBE is hoarding money for some other purpose?

[@jasonobermeyer1865]

@@CM-jc7gk Conceptually, it's possible that player retention and transfers are better priorities for NIL than high schoolers. Not that this is necessarily TBE's strategy, but the whole sport will find out soon enough.

[@richardbass3586]

Imagine this. Just a scenario. Imagine Jimbo Fischer coming back to help recruiting.

[@yomeich]

No... Just ... No. John James burned too many bridges to even be welcome inside the football facilities.

[@robertfleischer-g8f]

Miami, osu, and georgia have deeper pockets so we lost a few guys. Its a tremendous class. You have to add mjj to the class. I am certain the guys we did not sign got significantly more money. To say that mike does not know elite recruiting is laughable. Deion stole Lundy probably out of his own pocket. I was cpa for twenty five years so maybe im sceptical.

[@ronaldburkins-lv6xk]

Norvell and staff have proven they can coach already developed players. They cannot recruit and develop high school talent. FSU will perennially go from good to average to bad depending on what they do in the transfer portal. This just happened to be a good year.

[@edl7454]

5-7 to 7-5 to 13-0 I guess that is going good to average to bad ... Took a WR 4th stringer from Louisville and made him a heisman contender . Think before you post

[@ronaldburkins-lv6xk]

@@edl7454 it took three years to get enough transfers to go from bad to good. Let’s see how you do next year. I suspect you’ll be average. Also remember Norvell had no confidence in that 4th stringer from Louisville. Almost killed the kid’s confidence by bringing in that UCF kid. Knock it off and stop trying to rewrite history.

[@langstondah5219]

​@@ronaldburkins-lv6xk Look dude, I can see you're a jealous moron but look at our team. A lot of those transfers weren't good at all. Nobody wanted Wilson and MN turned him into a high draft choice. Players come here to get developed. You have no idea what you're talking about, so go back to sleep. FBA/B1

[@JoshCorby18]

“Elite collective” 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@aceboogie5819]

Maybe TBE should’ve spent a little more and we might have closed on some guys we lost…

[@stephenkelley6268]

How much money did you donate to TBE?

[@gregorymorand2547]

Question, who has this staff developed? Both QB that were brought in by this staff have left and most of your stars were transfer so I ask again who has this current staff developed? And please don't say JT, because he was a transfer too and coach Norvell tried to bring in a transfer QB over him to (MR. UCF), which almost had JT quit football all together. This is still an AAC staff and head coach trying to figure out Power 5 football. Your need good or great doing it once like most one hit wonders are you consider great if you can do it year after year like the great Bobby Bowden, Nick Saban, and now Kriby Smart. Let's see how next season pans out because I believe Coach Novell is going to have to coach his ass off to get this current team to a 6-6 record. Remember Michigan State did this exact same thing with a bunch of transfer and then fall off a cliff. Just asking because if QB doesn't improve next year is going to be a long ass season for sure.

[@tnole260]

Jordan was nothing before FSU Nobody wanted Benson or Johnny Wilson. Toafili went from averaging 2 YPC vs JSU to becoming very reliable Darius Washington went from a true freshman thrown in the fire to one of the versatile and underrated OL in the country Pat Payton was ACC DROY. Farmer was 250 when he got here DeLoach went from nothing to one of the best linebackers in the country. Renardo Green went from someone nobody knew to one of the best corners in the country. Jarrian Jones went from getting burnt to one of the best corners in the country. Shyheim Brown was a low 3-star who’s became a solid to good player. Fitzgerald and Mastro were respectively one of the best at their position after being average to below average

[@gregorymorand2547]

@@tnole260, relax on that. JT always had the skill he never had the players around him to show it. Take the blinders off!

[@MrGatorHater9]

This is such a stupid comment. Jarrian Jones, Jordan Travis, Josh Farmer, Kalen Deloach, Renardo Green, I can list many

[@charlesdoyle]

You’re missing the point entirely. Outside of Keon and Jermaine none of these transfers over the past three years were ready made guys. Was verse more impactful this year or last? Was fiske better game one or game 13? How developed was wilson at asu? Benson ran all over the pac12 didnt he? How about guys like kalen deloach and renardo green? What about the steps farmer, payton, and brown took from year one to year two? Development.

[@grillmaster95]

Going 13-0 is tough. Don't need to add any more qualifiers to it

[@brianwilkinson356]

Only Mike Norvell has that kind of bad luck too. He had a career year and got screwed. The guy just keeps trucking 💯🍢 Also, when does Randy, JP, and Odell receive their pink slips. Odell just needs to move to an off field position and we need a young, hungry, and possibly even an alum at DL. Any ideas? Also, we need to bring home Derrick from Miami to Coach the LBs