“Flying Flatiron”; The Javelin, Last of the Gloster Aircraft

[@kawarps]

Thank you Ed for a balanced view. The javelins epitaph could read. “It did what it said on the tin.”

[@robertjones8667]

I love the look of the javelin. It looks tough and no nonsense.

[@wormyboot]

Cool livery, too. I really like that red and white.

[@loddude5706]

Once worked with an ex-RAF Javelin engineer, said because they were built in more or less one solid piece, everything had to go in & out through access hatches. Likened it to home decorating through a letterbox : )

[@nco_gets_it]

I find that the difference between fighters and interceptors confuses the heck out of most people. They talk about dogfighting abilities, but interceptors are not dogfighters, they are missile trucks to defend against bombers. Which is why all of the early jet interceptors were what they were.

[@MM22966]

Then you get something like the Tomcat, and they are even more confused.

[@johnshepherd9676]

​@@MM22966 The Tomcat was a quiet admission that they chose the wrong aircraft in 1959. The Phantom was a multirole intercepter that was a mediocre air superiority fighter. The F8U-3 was an air superiority fighter that was as good as an interceptor.

[@mattheweagles5123]

There is a fine example of the Javelin at the Jet Age museum near Gloucester which is a great museum for aviation fans, and Gloster aircraft enthusiasts in particular.

[@Reddsoldier]

I don't think anything prepared me for just how big it is in person. Especially when sat next to aircraft from a similar era.

[@brucehewson5773]

Watching a Javelin doing a fast low level pass over RAAF Butterworth in 1962 with impressive fogging over the wings, left me awestruck as a 10 year old.

[@keithtarrier4558]

Wow cool!!! My father was in and out of Butterworth on C-130s for a few decades. But I was only born in 1970.

[@MuseumsBloke]

Always had a soft spot for the Javelin, along with so many for these post-war British fighter designs, so thanks very much, Ed, for giving this intriguing plane some love.

[@paulhill6590]

Yes! Absolutely spot on. The school of thought that says the RAF was very poorly equipped in the late 50s doesn't bare scrutiny. The main all weather interceptor in the US was the F89 Scorpion. New supersonic replacements were entering service in the USAF but it's years before they are widespread and importantly reliable and properly in service.

[@Reddsoldier]

The F89 and the Sabre Dog, but still. Neither are really in the same ballpark as the Javelin.

[@jpgabobo]

Just the F-8 Crusader alone make the Javelin look like a kid's trike before its time. Sorry, but the Javelins good looks are it's best features, Gerry Anderson good looks!

[@paulhill6590]

@@jpgabobo enters service after the Javelin, has less range and less powerful radar...

[@terrysmith7751]

One of your best episodes. You present the historical context of the mission, the available resources, the design, and the alternatives then available. The USAF Century fighters were hardly candidates for aviation's Mt Rushmore either.

[@williestyle35]

A big thank you to Ed Nash's Military Matters for this clear eyed and balanced view of the Gloster Javelin - a needlessly slogged all weather "fighter". The Gloster was built domestically, which many nations prioritize over some other factors that would have favored the US F - 4, if it had been in production at the exact same time.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Deep stall affects the air flow over the elevators, not the ailerons. If you lose elevator control, you only get out of the stall by a sudden thump with the ground. Any aileron input close to the stall can put you into a spin.

[@bob_the_bomb4508]

I had an old die-cast toy model of the Javelin as a kid. It’s how kids imagine a jet fighter to look. A bit like the Centurion does for tanks.

[@deepakhegde73]

Same here! The only reason I looked up this particular jet on KZbin :-) . Glad that my memories from 40 + years ago have not failed me...

[@astiwine2354]

As a boy growing up on the other side of the Pond in the 1950s my pride and joy were two Dinkey Toy models - a Hawker Hunter and a Gloster Javelin. I thought at the time they were the most beautiful jet aircraft ever built and i haven't changed that opinion!

[@Jon.A.Scholt]

The Javelin is the answer to the question, "What would happen if an Avro Vulcan and a Blackburn Buccaneer had a baby?"

[@MM22966]

"...and decides its purpose in life is to intercept other aircraft."

[@oldesertguy9616]

It amazes me how fast aircraft design advanced in the last half of the 1950's. We went from the F-86 to the F-4, the B-29 to the B-52, etc. It still boggles my mind that the SR-71 design started in the last couple of years of that decade.

[@keithtarrier4558]

Indeed

[@simonwilkinson4196]

Loved the video . Thanks . PS These things are huge monsters when you get to see them up close Newark Air Museum has a good example of the type indoors if anyone wants to see one .

[@seafreedom334]

Ah, I've been looking forward to this! I grew up in South East London in the 50's close to the Kent Border about 8 miles from RAF Biggin Hill. I remember Venoms flying over as they approached to join the circuit. But I mainly remember the sound of Javelins taking off! You could even hear them sometimes from inside the house. Must have made quite an impression on me as I can only have been about 5 years old! They can't have operated from there for long or even very often, yet I still remember it and knew at the time what aircraft it was. They clearly made a big impression on me. Explains a lot 🤣

[@oldesertguy9616]

I'm an American, but I really miss those unique British designs. It's just a shame what's happened to the British aerospace industry. I miss the crazy De Havilland designs, that seemed to work so well.

[@stevetournay6103]

Crazy like, say, the Mosquito? 😁 Course you'll mean stuff like the Sea Vixen, which was pretty "sci-fi" looking...

[@davidk2906]

I have always been a big fan of the Gloster Javelin since a child when I got a Dinky Toy of it. Today I have three of them in my collection as well I have built two 1/72nd models of it . I have one more to build. Thanks!

[@thomasrotweiler]

5:28 The red and white Javelin XH-897 was the last Javelin to fly and is in the colours of the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment, where it was in calibration trials. Last flew in 1975. Can be seen at the IWM Duxford Aviation Museum.

[@tomlobos2871]

internet be like: "the C-130 can outturn a B-52 in a dogfight, so the buff is a piece of outdated crap"

[@moss8448]

care to clarify that for this old fart?

[@JoshuaC923]

😂😂😂😂

[@The_ZeroLine]

Yup. As usual, group based internet meme opinions are almost always comically uninformed, devoid of context or nuance, etc. and therefore just useless.

[@JoshuaC923]

@@The_ZeroLine your comment is quite ironic

[@stone-hand]

It Is - but outdated does not mean useless, or unfit for a given purpose. My car is from 1990, but as long as the wheels keep turning and carry me where I need to go I ain't going to change it.

[@robbudden]

I worked with a man that was at Butterworth when the jav landed after the herc was downed. He had some interesting stories of that conflict, and that incident

[@wullie3xv923]

Thank you Ed for a long overdue, honest appraisal of an unsung RAF hero of the cold war. I've long been a fan of the old Jav. ever since one of my Uncle's gave me a 1959 & 1961 copy of the old pocket sized Observer's Book Of Aircraft. As a kid of the 1970's I just loved the shape & the look of them, especially the Mk 9R's with their air-to-air refueling probes sticking way out front like a Knights lance ! I have a first issue boxing of Airfix's 1/48 scale Javelin 9/9R to build, but, I currently don't have a space big enough to display it if I did build it ! ! Thanks also for the comparison with the F-3H Demon, another favourite jet of mine from the '50's. Also, loved the formation photo near the end of four of 64 Sqdn's Mk9R's from Tengah. Keep 'em comin', Ed. 😉

[@fooman2108]

The Phantom that was adopted by the RAF was nearly an entirely different aircraft than the models available initially.

[@jimtaylor294]

Aye. The Spey engined Phantoms famously always frustrated US Carrier crews on joint exercises, as they didn't have the same kind of jetblast deflectors nor strengthened decks as the FAA did, thus the Spey engined Phantoms melted / set fires on the decks of US Carriers they landed & took off from 😂 .

[@jackroutledge352]

​@@jimtaylor294Similarly, attempts to operate US Navy F4 phantoms on RN flat tops almost ended in disaster, as they realised the modifications for those shorter decks were absolutely necessary.

[@stevetournay6103]

In some ways the Javelin somewhat resembles the unbuilt Avro Canada CF-103, a sort of sweptwing CF-100 development. Tellingly, the ill-fated subsequent Avro Arrow had a fair bit in common aerodynamically with the Phantom II...and was the Phantom's direct contemporary, both types first flying in spring 1958, the Arrow in late March and the Phantom in May...

[@Anmeteor9663]

Javelin was designed and built for a specific job in a particular set of conditions. All weather interceptor at high latitudes. Despite the limitations of decision makers and finance it was developed into an aircraft that fulfilled its role to the required standards. As with all new concepts in the age of slide rules, some mistakes were made in design. As a trans sonic plane it was in service and defending Britain before the arrival of the Hunter, Lightening and finally the Phantom. As vital step in the ladder. Having grown up around the Gloster factory in Brockworth, Gloucester, I am a bit biased, maybe 😊

[@jelkel25]

Can't say as I was ever highly critical of the Javelin more it was a little forgotten, a real shame and im glad you made a video on it, definitely worth remembering.

[@docnelson2008]

A very fair and accurate account of an aeroplane I remember very well ; back in the 1960s I was a young meteorological assistant serving on a RAF station where 33 squadron flew Javelins . Ed is absolutely correct to maintain that the aircraft received a lot of unfair and inaccurate criticism; I recall its crews liking the aircraft despite the increasing challenges posed by new developments in the Soviet Union.

[@darrenwilson8042]

I always thought the Javelin was a handsome aircraft

[@razor1uk610]

It is a great pity the Jav never got anea-ruled variant/development !

[@nigelsmith7366]

Hi mate.... The Dehaviland hornet could do with a bit of love 👍

[@FredScuttle456]

Maybe a video, comparing the Hornet with the Dornier Pfeil.

[@PaxAlotin]

Actually Ed - touched on it - last year. He had a video episode called --------------------- 'Let’s Settle This. What Was the Fastest Piston Fighter Ever?' Cheers -

[@Palaemon44]

I enjoy building the old Airfix kits including the Javelin. Even the original issue kits can be found at reasonable prices and they are a fun throwback to childhood. The only thing is I’m pretty sure my wife won’t approve hanging them from the bedroom ceiling.😊

[@AttillatheHun-ph5eu]

I have a book which states that in mock combat with a Hawker Hunter the Javelin ran rings around it, though only at high altitude.

[@Paolo-s8p]

My too. Hunter's values were sturdiness, durability and cheapness. The Javelin was a very expensive asset, unsuitable if a dedicated logistic apparatus wasn't available. PS I'sorry for my poor English. 😊

[@FranktheTank-bk8me]

Nice one! I think you did the Javelin proud. Can you do a video on the far less glamorous Bristol Freighter.

[@FredScuttle456]

I bought a metal Dinky model of a Javelin at my school fete in the 60s. It's probably worth tens of pounds now.

[@peterhewson3216]

Great little model and looked superb as did the Javelin. Had a Sea Vixen too and remember both were as heavy as lead. Love em.

[@johndavey72]

Hi Ed. Quite right ! This aircraft was much misaligned and as you pointout was actually in the caught up in the rapid changes in aircraft technology . I think the pilot who managed to land the heavily damaged prototype aircraft was awarded an M.B.E. Thanks Ed.

[@stevetournay6103]

I think you mean maligned, not misaligned. Misalignment was Blohm & Voss' specialty...😁

[@andrewince8824]

British F4s were upgraded with the Rolls Royce Speys and extra radar. They were a massive upgrade on the Phantom and the result of lessons learned throughout the years.

[@timgosling6189]

Minor point, but the Sea Vixen was the DH110; I'm sure you just mis-spoke. The avionics of the day drove the size of the radar, which ended up dominating the size of the whole aircraft. Ironically the F-4 shared the same characteristic: a radar with a aircraft bolted on the back. The FAW7 had either 2 or 4 Aden cannon. I was at a presentation some years ago by an ex-test pilot who had analysed the superstall handling problems at A&AEE. Accompanied by a recording of his radio transmissions he described vividly his attempts to recover control as the aircraft fell in perfect level flight from 30,000 ft down to 8,000, at which point he ejected. A photo of the crash site showed it had landed flat on a rural cross roads. A sign post had punched up through the wing but the hole it left was just 2" bigger than the post, ie it had landed absolutely vertically. The superstall was a serious problem, especially as it could easily happen under g, and was unrecoverable as the turbulent air from the stalled delta masked the elevators and removed all pitch authority. Attempts to power out of the stall just flamed out the engines. There used to be one on the oval outside the Officers' Mess at Leeming. It was an impressively big jet!

[@wullie3xv923]

Aye. I have a photo of Leeming's old gate guard Jav. Think it was a Mk 4, but could be wrong. Taken while I was on detachment there in the summer of 2010.

[@stevetournay6103]

One of the biggest-ever interceptors, excluding the YF-12, was Avro Canada's CF-105. Doesn't look it because of her sleek, clean lines, but she was both longer and taller than the Lancaster!

[@radiosnail]

Good to see the Javelin get a good write up. I've only seen the Duxford one.

[@deaks25]

I think one of it's problems is that the Javelin looks a LOT more modern than it actually is. For a 2nd Generation Jet Fighter, it looks incredibly modern and so invariably gets compared to much more modern 3rd Gen aircraft, which it will always fall short of, and of course the Phantom is one of the best 3rd Gen fighter jets so the Javelin is going to look terrible compared to the Phantom. I've always thought of it as something of a stop gap; a "Good enough" aircraft to suit the needs of the time while something much better was in development, ie the Lightning. But then maybe I'm biased, because I've always thought the Javelin is a very cool looking aircraft. Although didn't realise how bloody enormous it is until I saw one in an air museum, they are absolute giants. It rare to look at an aircraft and then at a Panavia Tornado and think the Tonka looks a bit small...

[@FinsburyPhil]

A thin wing javelin re-engined with Avons or perhaps Speys would probably have been a better North Sea/Norwegian Sea CAP/interceptor platform than the sexier Lightning; which were never really up to that job and could only really successfully fulfil the original role of QRA point defence of V Bomber bases.

[@andrewhefner289]

Like most British designs post WWII, they were cutting edge when designed, but completely obsolete by the time they were fielded in usable numbers.

[@stephenbarker5162]

From my casual knowledge of US fighter designs for jets up to the 1960s I get the impression that they had the same problem with designs that either did not live up to expectations or were quickly rendered obsolete by developments in aviation. With the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps all commissioning their own designs the procurement policy in the US was expensive and extravagant. The luxury of a wealthy large country.

[@andrewhefner289]

@stephenbarker5162 true, but from the mid 50s on, they were considerably more successful than the Brits.

[@yes_head]

Thanks, Ed. I was going to put the Vought F7U forward as a peer to the Javelin, although the Javelin was definitely the better plane.

[@priceyA320]

Citing the Cutlass is a low bar indeed..

[@karoltakisobie6638]

Avro CF-100 was very similar aircraft and it had very similar fate. Were there other aircrafts like that.?

[@stevetournay6103]

That decade featured incredibly fast development in aerodynamics, so yes, there were quite a few such "transitional" designs (though I'd argue the CF-100 was, aerodynamically, very much a first generation jet...though one that, like the Meteor, served for decades).

[@wilsonj4705]

Don't sere how people can compare the Javelin to the F-4 and then criticize the Javelin when in the the 1950s AC development was advancing so fast that planes were essentially obsolete before the ink dried on the blueprints. Crazy times.

[@ronaldharris6569]

The phantom parked next to a javelin looks like a caveman carrying a club standing next to a 90 pound ballerina

[@bodan1196]

Regarding the F-35 and F-16: "A rifle is not a sharp as a sword, and is therefore useless in a fight."

[@Shadow_Fingered]

What a timely video, I just unlocked and started using the Javelin in War Thunder! Happy to see it featured on this channel.

[@thearisen7301]

Addressing the F-35 & F-16 bit. F-35 can dogfight. The test people refrence was where a very g restricted & not combat ready F-35 meant for testing was being used for against an F-16. However if you look at Red Flag you'll find F-35 is a dominant aircraft with even F-22 pilots calling it a challenging opponent.

[@mjf1036]

Nice segment Ed. It’s great to learn the story of the sweet little jet. Easy to criticize in near and hindsight but sound like the Jav did a cracking good job. And it appears to have grown up into a V-bomber!

[@stevetournay6103]

Sweet little jet? Haven't stood next to (or under) one, eh...😉

[@claveworks]

Adding nuance to a topic is great! As a child of the Javelin era I still remember the all metal Dinky versions that I had to play with along with the usual suspects: Swift, Sea Vixen, Hunter etc. I collect 1/72 plastic/metal hybrids now from WW2, with one exception, a Javelin and it is indeed a brute compared to piston-engined fighters lol.

[@vladimirdorta6692]

Ed Nash should have a full video about the history of British aviation just after WW2. It was the greatest.

[@keithpennock]

A word about military war game exercises, like the F-35 vs F-16 that you mentioned in the opening such exercises are not engineered to be even from the start, 5th Gen aircraft are intentionally hobbled with radar-visible external fuel tanks & missiles added in addition to rules of engagement that prevent the 5th Gen from launching Beyond Visual Range missile strikes & air-controllers limiting the air-space and confining engagement to start within visual range from known vectors, only in such confined circumstances have 4th Gen aircraft got a lock on the F-35 & F-22. Contrary to what the hack so-called “Military Reformers” of the so-called “Fighter Mafia” like Pierre Sprey and their hack POGO organization say every time the gloves have been taken-off and the stealth allowed to be used as intended along with BVR shots & their given ingress vector discretion the 5th Gen aircraft have smoked the 4th Gen every time before they even knew they were engaged.

[@cirian75]

The F35 the F16 defeated was an development prototype. It was G-limited below its in service limit and did not have its full equipment fit out. Not really a fair comparison at all.

[@taivaankumma]

I'm one of those people who have their favorites, but hey, I'm an 80's kid so F-14, Viggen and Tornado it is for me.

[@gastonneal724]

F-16 and Harrier and MIG. 80’s kid too. F-14 big stiff, the flat spin in Top Gun turned me off. Plus I had a F-16 model I put together.

[@jimtaylor294]

I'm an '80's kid, yet have favourites from all over the Cold War era 😂 . The SAAB Draken for example; always struck me as the unsolicited lovechild of a MIG-21 and Concord with a pinch of Angel Interceptor from Captain Scarlet 😂

[@sergeipohkerova7211]

The version of the RAF/RNAS that had BAC Lightnings as modern Spitfire interceptors, Hawker Harriers, Gloster Javelins, Bristol Buccaneers, Hawker Hunters, and the Vulcan, Victor, and Valiant nuclear bomber deterrents was so cool. I don't really know how cost effective it all was, but it really gave off the impression of the purely English, "defense of the realm," "all for the empire" vibe going back to the medieval ages that Britain just doesn't have anymore. Once the Harriers and last of the V bombers got retired, it just feels like a cheap knockoff of America's air power.

[@jimroberts3009]

I guess you're not British. The RNAS, Royal Naval Air Service , only existed between 1914 and 1918 so obviously couldn't have flown any of these aircraft! The FAA, Fleet Air Arm, only flew the Harrier. 😂

[@sergeipohkerova7211]

​@@jimroberts3009 yeah, not British. I'm only talking really about the era and not specific acronyms. Kind of like how people still regularly refer to America's strategic air command (SAC) when talking about long range bombers but if course there's no more SAC. Oh well. I'm from the former Soviet Union and people call all of us Russians even if we're Polish or Ukrainian 😂

[@jimroberts3009]

@@sergeipohkerova7211 There's a difference between the Cold War era and WW1 era, like a 30 year difference! Perhaps you should stick to Russian language KZbin sites or learn more about British aviation history. No one would have called the FAA the RNAS in the 1950's and 1960's.

[@stevetournay6103]

​​@@jimroberts3009Well no, the Royal Navy also operated both the Buccaneer and the Phantom II...also the Hunter in support roles.

[@steveshoemaker6347]

lt was an aircraft the served the purpose very well at that time.....Thank you Ed Nash..... Old F-4 pilot Shoe🇺🇸

[@clydedopheide1033]

Another great episode. Thanks Sir

[@sergeipohkerova7211]

It's cool to see stuff from when Britain really had a viable, individual aircraft industry. I know it's not actually the case, but the RAF today just looks like a bunch of American F35s and committee Typhoons that are part German and French or whatever.

[@stevetournay6103]

Well...actually from a combat aircraft perspective that IS pretty much true.

[@joshpetersen5968]

As far as the F-16 vs F-35 goes what I've heard multiple times is that a clean(No external tanks or stores) F-16 will beat an F-35 in a dogfight due to several factors such as agility and thrust to weight ratio, however in a more realistic situation the F-16 will likely never see the F-35 until the missiles starts flying, at which point the F-35 has already won(barring some new sensor tech that can cut through stealth.

[@chefchaudard3580]

What I’ve heard is that exercises tend to Favour the F-35 : the F-16 is considered as « shot down » as soon as the missile is « launched » (virtually) by the F-35. In reality, a F-35 with its bay open is not stealthy anymore. Meaning that a F-16 can, in theory, detect it, launch its own missile and try to evade the incoming one. Stealth is probably a big advantage, but fights would not be as single sided in real life.

[@joshpetersen5968]

@@chefchaudard3580 While it is true that opening the missile bay compromises the stealth, the bay doesn't stay open long and and I'm sure all stealth fighter pilots are trained to immediately take evasive action once the missile launches. Also because they would be the attacker they'd have the advantage of knowing when they intend to attack and have their next actions ready to go in their heads. The F-16 OTOH has to start their entire OODA(observe, orient, decide and act) loop from the detection of the F-35 launch, their RWR screaming as the missiles radar activates and the missile barreling in on them at Mach 4+. Sure theoretically an exceptional pilot could get of their own missile launch off at the detection of the bay opening, but I think most pilots are going to fixate on the missile headed towards them first, allowing the F-35 to get back into a stealth configuration.

[@chefchaudard3580]

@@joshpetersen5968 good point. what I meant is that aircraft’s are rarely flying alone, except for exercises for safety reasons. If a F-35 is discovered, even briefly, even if the targeted aircraft does not shoot back, another one can, if the cover is well organized. It is possible that F-35s will draw the first blood, but the battle can turn into a mess if the F-35s are known to be around. Specially if they have to manœuvre and present another aspect ratio, less stealthy than their front. My point is that this will boil down to tactics and will not be as single sided as exercises show.

[@joshpetersen5968]

@ Good point as well, and I definitely agree that it will boil down to tactics, however by the same token the F-35 won't be alone either in a real life scenario with wingmen decoys and potentially drones flying alongside them. Thinking about it, the F-35 may not even fire very much at all in most air to air engagements, serving as a stealthy forward controller for missile truck planes further back(such as the F/A-18 Hornets carrying long range missiles like the AIM-174Bs that were recently unveiled.)

[@chefchaudard3580]

@@joshpetersen5968 I agree, drones are probably the way to go. But how old will be the F-16s when they are fielded? There is so much you can do with an airframe designed 60 years ago (it is already 50 years old). Maybe it will be (once more) updated nonetheless, with a better radar, an optical sensor, better jammers, missiles, ECM… The major advantages of the F-35 against the F-16 is that it is stealthy and it is bigger, with more onboard power, leaving more room for improvements. I don’t think, however, that the F-16 would be a sitting duck in an actual fight against the F-35, nor that some improvements would not make the gap between them even thinner for a time. It is true, however, that the F-16 is at the end of its development curve : if some improvements are maybe possible, it is true only for a time.

[@heneagedundas]

My most memorable encounter with a Javelin was as a very small child at RAF Laarbruch, when my mum got to sit in one and I thought she was going to fly away and leave me. Despite that, I'm still quite found of the Javelin.

[@KevTheImpaler]

Reminds me a bit of the Tornado F3. It was scored as a fighter aircraft, but it was made to do a job: intercept Soviet bombers over the North Sea.

[@MrHws5mp]

Hmmm. First off, the Sea Vixen was the DH-110, not 101. It was also the RAF's preferred choice for the all-weather interceptor requirement, being consistently evaluated as better than the Javelin. It was only the horrific and highly public crash of the DH-110 prototype at the 1953 Farnborough Air Show that caused the RAF to switch to it's "backup" choice of the Javelin. Had enough DH-110 prototypes been funded, it's likely that the DH-110 crash would have occurred earlier and "in private" and the RAF would never have lost faith in it or been under public/political pressure to drop it. There's a lot more to criticise the Javelin for than it's top speed. You mentioned the deep stall problem which was common to other T-tailed aircraft. The detailed design of the thing was a mess. The guns were in the wings at a time when everyone else was (correctly) putting them in the fuselage, and their position on the wing caused a protracted problem with locally supersonic airflow heating the barrels. The airbrakes were in the wings when they could have been in the rear fuselage, and the flaps were in the _middle_ of the wing instead of at the trailing edge. All these wing-packaging issues meant that the big, thick, draggy wing didn't even have the saving grace of holding a lot of fuel, and later marks had to have permanent conformal fuel tanks under the fuselage. There was a damned great hole in the middle of the fuselage for maintenance access, in exactly the position that an extra fuel tank would have been really, really useful. The access hatch to that bay was the reason why there wasn't a centreline hardpoint, and that in turn meant that it had to have two conformal belly tanks (either side of the hatch) intead of one, thus exacerbating the drag problem. The reason that the reheat mod was only for high altitude use was that the fuel pumps weren't upgraded to match it, which meant that at low altitude, engaging reheat robbed the engine core of fuel flow and actually made the aircrraft go _slower_ , which has to be a pretty unique failing: an afterburner that slows you down... Basically Gloster was a poorly run company by 1950, behind the curve in modern aircraft design, and it shows in the detail design of the Javelin. The writings of Gloster Chief test pilot Bill Waterton give elequent testimony to the company's complacent and amateurish attitude. Basically, the company seemed to think that having designed the RAF's first jet fighter, the Meteor, they could sit on their laurels, which was exactly the wrong attitude in a time of bewilderingly fast technological change. Much the same malaise affected Supermarine, who's triumph with the Spitfire (a basically pre-war aeroplane by a long-dead designer) didn't prevent them from turning out a string of post-war lemons in the shape of the Attacker, Swift and Scimitar.

[@stevetournay6103]

What was Waterton's impression of the CF-100, I wonder, as he was the first to fly that type?

[@aussie807]

love your vids 👍🇦🇺

[@danbenson7587]

While a jet might fly supersonic, it can’t do so with endurance. Moreover a supersonic dogfight deteriorates to subsonic quickly because of energy preservation demands. (Besides, a jet can’t outrun a missile, but it might out turn one). Both endurance and dog fighting favor low wing loading and so the Javelin was OK for a plane its size. The Javelin was a good fit with its mission. If a design meets its requirements, it is a quality product. Deficiency is the fault of the requirements not the plane. BTW Kuchemann carrots purpose is area ruling to decrease transonic drag. Can see the same on Convair 990. Cheers

[@michaeldenesyk3195]

Your information about teh F-35 not being able to dogfight is very old. The issue was that the flight control software of that prototype F-35 was limiting the F-35s ability to maneuver. Teh latest software for teh A, B and C models of teh F-35 is more than capable of dogfighting. I am surprised that you did not research that incident

[@toktokkierm]

I was in Rhodesia 1968 - 1971 . Rhodesia had Hunters & RAF was sent to Zambia with Javelins. The two used to fly along the Zambesi river, each on their own side, in close company. No real hostility in evidence it was said.

[@babboon5764]

Err Ed? 1.37 'The Javelin was *transonic* with a maximum speed just *under* the *speed* barrier? Max speed's listed as 0.93 Mach so not quite transonic - A whisker under the (cough) sound barrier 😋

[@PaxAlotin]

*Ed - Beardnecks are fully qualified to fly any aircraft* ----------------- in War-Thunder ---------- *so their **_'experience'_** is fully real* 😉🙂😊

[@tulsatrash]

I find it and the F-4 to both be impressively ugly in a sometimes charming way.

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

a phantom ugly? those are fighting words

[@Easy-Eight]

@@ripvanwinkle2002 I used to work on the "Rhinos". It was a brute and brutes are not pretty.

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

@ the F-4 is beautiful in both aspect and form, line and propitiation. i dont know what military you served in, but they clearly didnt check to see if your eyes were defective. 🤪

[@Easy-Eight]

@ USAF, the largest operator in the world. We called them Rhinos. What military did you work in that had Rhinos?

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

@@Easy-Eight if youre talking to me, that would be the USMC though they were mostly gone when i was in, 87-89. only recon units used them for a tiny bit in those days later replaced by the F/A-18, but my older brother served in the USMC while they were active and the blue angles used them for quite awhile as well. they werent called "rhinos" in Navy or USMC service.. but i guess when you need 2 miles of concrete to land a plane how good do your eyes need to be? lower standards i guess. 😜

[@andrewrobinson5837]

Such a striking, and yet somewhat problematic aircraft. I found the development of the aircraft by Glosters amazing. Watertons account in his book are just gripping.

[@austinowings4904]

Comparing the Javelin to the F-4 is a comparison in bad faith. The Javelin isn't an early, undercapable equivalent of the F-4, it's a late and (arguably) more capable equivalent of the F-89 Scorpion. A much fairer comparison is with the F-102, which had many similar issues.

[@Paolo-s8p]

I agree. F-101, F-102, Javelin, Sea Vixen, Demon. I would exclude both Vautour and (maybe) Lansen, due to their poor avionics. It's more difficult to evaluate the Yak-26. PS If my English seems poor, ok, it's. 😊

[@francishruszka877]

Thanks for this excellent video!😊

[@paulkirkland3263]

I don't know about hindsight, but I remember as a very small boy going to an air display at RAF Cottesmore with my father and godfather ( RAF engineer and RAF pilot respectively ); as we walked past a Javelin, they were less than complimentary about it.

[@michaelgautreaux3168]

Always liked the Javelin, Vixen & Scimitar. Never liked the Demon. W/ the F-4, U still got a Demon but w/ an insane acceleration capacity... little else. F3H - F-4 development program was longest in history. Many thanx Ed. 👍👍

[@OneMoreDesu]

An intercepter with a big radar? Sounds like the start of the great trend

[@Dartingleopard]

Yeah, like a British, fixed wing predecessor of the F-14

[@6thmichcav262]

Have you read Ed’s book yet?

[@krismorgan]

I do have it and read it a few times so far.

[@victorkrawchuk9141]

From the side, the Javelin looked a bit like Supercar to me when I was a kid. This is probably why I've always liked it.

[@davidmcintyre8145]

The biggest issue with the Javelin was actually the controls which were taken from an earlier design that was so hopeless it was called the"gormless"by it's test pilot who also castigated the Javelin The T tail which was blinded by the delta wing also did not help

[@johnshepherd9676]

The F3H was on it's way out because of the aircraft introduced the following year, tge F8U Crusader. Despite being labeled "a day fighter" it had radar intercept capability equal to or better than the Demon. The supersonic F-101 Voodoo was introduced in 1957 and served until the early 1980s in US service.

[@michaelogden5958]

Are the bizarre Javelin colors PhotoShopped? Private owner aircraft? Good video, as usual! Cheers!

[@richardvernon317]

Test Aircraft at A&AEE.

[@smelkus]

Shame the UK hasn't solo built a new combat aircraft since the sea harrier or maybe the hawk 200 since that is different enough to the hawk to be considered a different aircraft to the hawk we have only made aircraft in collaboration since

[@jimtaylor294]

Aye. We have only the government to blame for this. That said, the Tornado and Typhoon were basically British aircraft with foreign backing & assembly assistance. The Jaguar (mostly french) and Harrier II (50/50 with the USA) are counter-examples though.

[@smelkus]

@jimtaylor294 but wasn't the jaguar built before some of our solo aircraft like the sea harrier and hawk back then us building aircraft with other countries was the exception but by the time the tornado, AV8B harrier II and typhoon were made it was the norm

[@mrjockt]

The problem is that development costs have gotten so high that for an aircraft manufacturer to go it alone they need large, guaranteed, orders to make it worthwhile, with the U.S. manufacturers this isn’t an issue due to the size of the USAF but for countries like the U.K. with a relatively small air force the only way of going it alone would be if there were guaranteed export sales as well.

[@Ka9radio_Mobile9]

A capable jet for sure! Do you know if any Javelins are flying in private hands today?

[@wullie3xv923]

Unfortunately, no. 😭

[@stevetournay6103]

No, in fact very few survive at all.

[@AvengerII]

Nice looking plane. A shame not that many were preserved. Might have been nice to see one in the States! Not a bad-looking delta but I think experience demonstrated the T-tail is NOT a good tailplane design for fighters! They had a lot of handling issues in the F-104 that were connected to the T-tail. I've checked and have been surprised by the European planes we DO have in a few American museums. The best US-located museum to go to see European fighter planes is probably Pima Air and Space Museum next to Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. They have a Mirage III (a Swiss plane that was recently acquired), a Tornado IDS (German Navy?), and probably the largest collection of Harriers in the United States. They have an AV-8C, a TAV-8, a Harrier II GR5, a Harrier GR3, and a Sea Harrier FA2.

[@eguy_6]

8:40 What is that paint scheme for? Celebratory or practical?

[@stevetournay6103]

If you mean the red and white one, she was a test aircraft (and ended up being the last Javelin flown, and survives today at IWM Duxford). Or you might mean the bright orange one...in which case I have no idea!

[@lohikarhu734]

I think that this is the first airplane model that I ever built.. 8 years old. Still like the delta wing look.. CF-105!

[@stevetournay6103]

Mountains of myth about the 105. But she sure was a looker.

[@williampratt1066]

Far as I remember handling wise the Javelin had one principle vice, if stalled it would enter an unrecoverable flat spin…….😮

[@blacklake13]

I suspect there was an actual franco-reactive edict back then mandating that all UK-developed aircraft had to be as visually unappealing as possible.

[@guaporeturns9472]

Love the Javeline. How does the EE⚡️ fit into this discussion?

[@stevetournay6103]

At its conclusion...the Lightning replaced the Javelin.

[@guaporeturns9472]

@ That’s always what I thought , but not much mention of that here.. All about the Phantom

[@AlphaWhiskey_Haryo]

it had some encounter with Indonesian Badgers too over Malaka Strait

[@richardgibson6647]

On a school trip around Glencoe in 1975 a jet ripped through the valley below us near the Three Sisters, Someone said it was a Phantom but I remember looking down into the cockpit and there was only one pilot, It had RAF roundels. Does anyone know what it was?

[@johnhudghton3535]

Again another victim of short sighted "bean counters" and idiot politicians. I loved this aircraft. In my late 60's now and remember having Matchbox models of The Javelin, Sea Vixen, Hunter, and Lightning. The Jav was always a favourite of mine. In my teens I came across a free flight flying model Javelin, to be contructed and powered by a Jetex rocket motor. I took great care in making this rarity, painted it, applied decals and duly doped it. I took it to a local hill. Test glided it first and then when satisfied and seeing the coast was clear lit the Jetex motor and released her into the blue. Oh my she flew like a beaut. Straight, a slight climb and stable...until...disaster. The flying flat iron suddenly got too hot and burst into flames. She flew beautifully ablaze with me chasing after her willing her to come down so I could rescue her from self immolation. It was all my fault. I had stupidly omitted to affix the ( included ) asbestos pad between the fire spewing rocket engine and the inflamable airframe. Duh! Doh! And damnit! Short sighted teenage model maker just as bad as the idiot beaurocrats in his own way.

[@redjacc7581]

why didnt they upgrade the engines?

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

its funny what you said about the f35 because the same nonsense is applied to the Chinese J20 that it can out dogfight the F35 even though it lacks a gun to dogfight with.. the reality is neither the F16 nor the J20 would ever get in dogfighting distance of the F35 unless things have gone HORRIBLY wrong for the F35 pilot. id have to say, if i had to fight ww2 as a fighter pilot id want a Hurricaine or a P- 47 Thunderbolt because im certain either would have the best chance of bringing me home again and 8 Machine guns is just cool and i dont care what anyone else thinks

[@PaxAlotin]

For my money - the F35 is a capable aircraft ----------------- kinda ---- It reminds me of the Buffalo Brewster in being over cost & controlled too much by Congress. As we know - the Buffalo Brewster was given a shellacking by the Japanese ---- yet in Europe - it held it's own..

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

@@PaxAlotin TBF the Naval (F2 Buffalo) version had to carry the extra weight of a raft and other sea rescue/survival gear. so it was heavier by far than the one the Finns used which was stripped of that nonesense on top of that NO ONES fighters in 1940-42 could furball with a Japanese fighter not even the vaunted spitfire. at the end of the day it was speed tactics and armor plating that beat the Japanese fighters, as no one really made a fighter that would out turn a zero

[@PaxAlotin]

@ fully agree. Out-turning a Zero ? Mostly impossible --- except for the Fiat Falco --- but Neck-beards would need to check with War-Thunder.🙂

[@Dartingleopard]

​@PaxAlotin Yeah, the only fighter that stood a chance at that time was the Spitfire and even then the Zero would still fly rings around it as it was made to be very light and agile.

[@nidgem7171]

7.50 *Super-stall* close but not quite ... its not the Ailerons affected - Could be either of two things meant. Ordinary stall, too slow, air flowing over the wings doesn't have enough energy to provide lift and flow 'delaminates' to mush. High speed stall has aspects of that but the wing itself at a high angle of attack is shielding the upper surface from airflow too Here though I think the issue is airflow over theTail, specifically elevator function. Oddly enough one of my flying instructors worked at one point for Blackburn Aircraft Co - He told me the Buccaneer had much the same problem. At certain angles of attack (ie, wing into airflow) the wing masked the airflow to the Tail. At least one Buccaneer was lost as a result and for sometime it was thought the only correct response was to eject.

[@lohikarhu734]

I was just thinking that, if some of the development work on the Avro Arrow, in 1956-1958, had been adopting toward the Javelin's later versions, it could have been rather more... Orenda Iroquois engine? Maybe too big? But, certainly, aerodynamics could have been transferred to the delta wing "platform"

[@stephenmeier4658]

Let's be honest. If you are into military aviation, you know the name Ed Nash well ❤

[@Lensman864]

A very interesting video but I'm mystified by the company repeatedly named "Glosters". Are they allied with Tescos? Seriously, the tendency to add an extraneous 's' to company names must be resisted!

[@jimtaylor294]

Ironically Tesco has never had an *s* in their name; customers just keep adding one 😂 . (even Wallace in *A Grand Day Out* does)

[@stevetournay6103]

​@@jimtaylor294 What's wrong with Wensleydale? 😁

[@animalian01]

I personally thought it was a good looking aircraft

[@Chongo_657]

looks alot like the Blackburn Buccaneers older brother, does the Javelin.

[@babboon5764]

I used to have a Matchbox (metal) model Javelin Not a good thing to tred on when not wearing shoes