FOALS LEFT BEHIND

Bureau of Land Management Roundup: A weakened foal left far behind during a helicopter chase is escorted to the trap pen by two wranglers using a rope under his tail. For more info on why foals are left behind, please see humaneobserver....

[@emmaburnett9540]

Leave the horses alone in the first place.

[@mikayladavis6938]

They are saving them, and putting them up for adoption to give to loving homes. If they don't do this the government will round them up and take every single one to the slaughter house.

[@beverlycass1840]

@@mikayladavis6938 How many are in holding pens that never get adopted?

[@DeathxbyxnerdlyNess]

Listen, I work with horses every day, I have been trained on how to train them comfortably and with as little strass as possible and what these men are doing is the only safe way to lead an unhandled wild foal. They are using pressure behind the rump, not under the tail to move the horse forward. This does not harm the horse it only uses pressure. Not any rough pressure might I add. If you people want to know what to crusade about look up mexican horse tripping. BLM gives these horses which never shold have lived on the grass lands of north america to loving homes. Otherwise companies with eminant domain would slaughter them and kill off the breed. They are preserving them despite the fact that they don't belong there. Please don't bully the good guys. Good intentions should be placed on far more grevious things. @ Renee, That foal isn't new born sweetie, and a foal being away from it's mother does not kill it on impact. They have to be away for much longer than a few hours. I'm sure they do all that they can to properly care for the foal. I think perhaps if you want to fight for horses do research into the procedures of BLM. So atleast if you still agree you have all of the facts.

[@HumaneObserver]

Hi there, thank you for your comments. I would ask you to read my responses to Tresa Lamb, whose comments came after yours. But even more specific to your comments: there horses are indeed native; they are returned natives. Please read this report by two respected scientists, Drs. Patricia Fazio and Dr. J. Kirkpatrick. Dr. Kirkpatrick invented PZP, the infertility drug most favored to help suppress reproduction in horses and deer. www.isnhcp.net/wild_horses_as_native_american_wildlife.pdf

[@novamouy17]

I seriously disagree with you about these men and that they are doing to these horses. These animals should be left to live in the wild and not sold to people who kill them anyway and even eat them!

[@fayebrown914]

Did anyone ever think about giving that little guy some water?!!!! He/she is probably very dehydrated by now, and is, therefore, in a very weak condition!! He/she also needs his/her mother!! What did they do with all of the horses they rounded up?

[@klutz1722]

This video is 6 years old and things are not any better. This poor baby was exhausted and it still happens all the time. Thousands of these horses are being kept in pens for life if not sneaked off to slaughter.

[@HumaneObserver]

@Sonialei77 No, this baby wasn't doing well. He almost fell down once when they did stop. Th whole reason he was out there is because he was spent. He experienced the most terrifying thing a foal can experience: his whole family was being chased by a terrifying bird and his burning little lungs and aching feet would not carry him far or fast enough to keep up with his family, and he was left alone as they ran off in front of the helicopter. He wasn't "pissed"; he was beat up, weak and scared.

[@novamouy17]

These criminals need to be arrested and prosecuted fro animal cruelty!!! Animals have the right to life and freedom just like we do!! They are living beings who's feel pleasure and pain just the same. Damm bastards don't deserve to be free for what they do to these poor horses!!!!!

[@HumaneObserver]

Thank you for your comment and deep concern, Kendra. Please check in with WildHorseEducation.org to learn what you can do to help the horses and burros at various times when we need to write a letter or make a phone call. Each one of us gives another horse a voice. Thank you again!

[@novamouy17]

I sure will thank you.

[@HumaneObserver]

Kendra Perkins Astoundingly, Kendra, there are no laws about how far they can drive a horse with a helicopter, or how close a helicopter is allowed to come, or what temperatures, whether it's 96F or 9F, it is acceptable to capture horses with a helicopter. These are issues Laura Leigh addressed in her litigation against BLM, and they are supposed to be putting safeguards in place, but there is no actual law. We continue to press for more protections. If you follow Wildhorseeducation.org, Laura Leigh's great ongoing work for these horses will keep you informed about what is happening to them and how you can make effective comments when they are needed, and to whom to make them.

[@bethprestonstrain]

The purpose of the round ups is to separate out horses to sale for money to fund our wild horses as well as other projects, i just don't see them leaving thousands of dollars stranded somewhere just cause they can't keep up. also let me say: by your comments and reply's i can easily see that i am dealing with an intelligent caring adult who is just simply looking out for something they love! bravo! and thank you! it is a breath of fresh air from the insults and fowl language these days!

[@fayebrown914]

Those babies looked totally lost and bewildered, especially the little one they put in the pen at the end. That little one definately needs some milk ASAP. Those guys act like they don't even care. TERRIBLE!!!!

[@maggiemarlow7927]

LET THE WILD HORSES RUN FREE🐴 NO MORE. LET THEM RUN FREE

[@dottieocaspianhorsesrock3643]

Michaela Bast More like over manipulation

[@tresalamb2793]

Apparently, you know nothing of horses. It is easier to guide a young horse with a rope under it's tail then just around their necks. Yes, they kick & buck, because it is unfamiliar to them. The rope is putting pressure on their haunches, causing them to move forward. Being under the tail keeps it from slipping off & control being lost. It, also, helps to keep them from getting their necks broke. These roundups are done to keep numbers down, That way; there is no overgrazing. If this was not done, many horses would starve to death. Lose your holier than thou attitude. If you truly want to help the mustangs, help them get adopted.

[@HumaneObserver]

Thank you for your comment. First off, I have a mustang I've trained, and I've helped in the rehoming of over 75 horses I know about, and many have been sought because I featured them on a blog or website. If you read my comments and responses to people, you will see that my aim is to educate the public, and I am not claiming that this particular procedure is abusive. The abuse is in the unnecessary roundup. The overpopulation of wild horses is a myth. Here are the facts: BLM manages approximately 240 million acres of public land. Cattle are grazed on over 160 million acres of OUR PUBLIC LAND but they treat it as if it is their private cattle restaurant. In 1971, Congress unanimously passed a law stating wild horses should be allowed to remain where they were then found, and the land they lived on should be managed principally but not exclusively for their benefit. They were then found on 53.8 million acres. Presently, BLM has reduced that now to 26.9 million acres, a loss of nearly half of their legal range. Wild horses are outnumbered by cattle by at least two-to-one on almost all of their legal ranges and that is a conservative estimate; it is more often three or four cows to one wild horse. There is only so much food on the range, and when most of it is allocated to cattle, then anything over a small amount of horses is going to seem overpopulated. EXAMPLE: Just for simple example of what's happening: Let's say a range can feed 100 large animals. Let's say BLM says the private rancher can graze 75 cattle on the range. Let's say BLM says wild horses and other wildlife get the other 25 portions. Then they say anything over 25 horses is overpopulation, oh dear, we are overrun with wild horses! This is wrong especially given that Congress said these areas declared legal wild horse ranges should be "managed principally but not necessarily exclusively for their welfare." You should also be aware that privately owned cattle grazed on public lands only make up 2 to 4 percent of the cattle that are consumed by humans. So only a very small handful of ranchers are profiting at the wild horses' expense, and the price of beef would not be impacted if fewer cattle were grazed ON PUBLIC LAND. And not everyone even eats beef or uses cattle products, so for cattle to dominate our public lands the way they do is pandering to private interests at taxpayers' expense. One other thought: When you have the majority of a range given to domestic livestock, the majority of the impact (like overgrazing) to the range is from domestic livestock, not from the wild horses. And if you watch horses graze, they only take the tops of things unless they are fenced in and there's no place else for them to graze. The fencing of the range, which remains up even when cattle are taken off a range, also restricts wild horse movement, and we need to be sure gates are open and these animals able to be wild and free-roaming like the Congressional Act named for them implies, i.e., the "Wild, Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act of 1971." These are our public lands, and the horses - including wild horses - originated in North America, went extinct for a short time, and was reintroduced. They are a returned native with an Act of Congress to protect them, yet the law is not being followed, and we are in danger of losing their legacy. Please please be informed. I was a court reporter, I am a conservative American and never considered myself an activist. But what I am seeing is so wrong, I must educate the public. I am terribly disillusioned with my government, but a new administration and/or congress sensitive and aware of the facts could change everything. It is our job as Americans to educate our representatives and each other. Thank you for caring enough to write to me. Happy Trails!

[@tresalamb2793]

Thank you for giving me additional information. I was not aware of this additional data. I am better informed now. Thank you, again.

[@HumaneObserver]

Tresa Lamb You are so very welcome. You have something very precious and rare: a teachable spirit, with its accompanying humility. Thank you for exploring the issue, for expressing what you felt and the willingness to learn. Wildhorseeducation.org is founded by my friend and colleague, Laura Leigh, who is acknowledged by the federal courts in Nevada to have attended more roundups than anyone besides the contractors. She has four active lawsuits against BLM, one of which is to get humane care standards. Did you know there is no distance limit on how far the helicopter can chase these horses? And the bands are made up of old horses, babies, and young healthy horses, just like our families on Thanksgiving. Not all mustangs are athletes! Babies' feet aren't hard enough to withstand running on hard rock, or even walking a mile, let alone 10 or 18 miles. There is also no law against pushing the horses with the helicopter skids, something I have filmed myself, in fact, something many of us have filmed. That's just the start of it… the entire program needs serious revision. Thank you again for your interest.

[@TheObserver258]

well you don't now anything OF horses tresa,i have to horses,they hade to leave the foal cause it could not keep up,if it did it would have stayed with the mare,but it did not,so,tell me,if the foal was easy to guide that's rong,it hard to guide a foal with ropes,they buck and kick,my friend hade a foal,and she ropes it to leade it AND GUESSS WHAT!!!! it would not come,the foal was able to exape.so why do you say she knows nothing about horses? maybe shes right and you could be right but I have seen this in real,they really said that the foal could not keep up its true.

[@lusablackberry2516]

Tresa Lamb u don't either

[@anjaherbert973]

Poor foals. They need their mothers!!

[@veronicatheriot8982]

I fell bad

[@fullmoonstables2308]

People just need to leave wild animals alone

[@katherinebeaudoin3955]

preach

[@gix.y]

I agree and I also think we should leave wild horses alone and breed new ones off of already domesticated horses instead of taking them from the wild

[@cassiebradley5632]

these are NOT WILD ANIMALS ... they are not natural to the United States.. they are feral horses. If you leave these horses alone, they will destroy the area they live, they will starve to death and they will kill all of the other animals in the area because they over graze ... please pick up a book and study a subject before formulating a biased tree hugging opinion

[@suemcnab3059]

Cattle raised for meat are doing a far better job of destroying land than wild horses.

[@fullmoonstables2308]

+Sue McNab Right

[@mepperly07]

I guess I am missing something here... the wranglers went back for a foal that was clearly left behind in the herd, humanely escorted it back to the herd and then removed a horse in the pen that was clearly not happy with it's presence. Is it just the over all capture you are opposed to? I am a horse lover and I know that not all the horses are treated so kindly but like said below the wild horses that are not native to the US will starve and die if not captured and removed. I am not a fan of slaughter and I hope the future brings better things for these horses but starvation is horrific also. my 2 cents.

[@HumaneObserver]

+My2CentsThank you for your comment. Wild horses are indeed native to North America. I've provided a link for your review. www.livescience.com/9589-surprising-history-america-wild-horses.html . Cattle certainly are not. We agree that BLM is to manage and protect our wild horses. But their management fails to give them the legal priority the 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act calls for. As a result, the BLM has been successfully spinning propaganda that there is an wild overpopulation of wild horses when in the entire country no more than 45,000 remain. That figure would be considered "critically endangered" in any other species. Please look at some o my answers to other comments and hopefully the larger picture will emerge. Here let me just give you an example: Say you have an area of 10 acres. Let's say that area can support 15 Animal Unit Months; the range is divided into "Animal Unit Months," or AUMs. BLM considers one wild horse to equal 1 cow and her calf to equal, OR five sheep. So let's just say there are 15 AUMs on this 10 acres. And let's say the ranchers are already entitled to 10 AUMs on that PUBLIC LAND because the Jones family's cattle ranch has a legal grazing permit in place for many generations. So even though the 1971 Act says that wild, free-roaming horses "are to be considered an integral part of the natural system of the public lands," and it says that the land on which they were found in 1971 should be managed "principally, but not necessarily exclusively" for their welfare, let's say they are allowed to continue to be grossly outnumbered by cattle. So on that 10 acres, given those numbers, anything over 5 horses would be considered "excessive." But according to the law, that picture is backwards. The horses should outnumber the cattle in those areas where they are legally allowed to live. That is only 26 million to 32 million acres now, while cattle are allowed to graze on - get ready - 160 million acres. Cattle are allowed to vastly outnumber the wild horses on that paltry 26 million acres left to them. This is the great injustice that is being done and spun so that people don't realize the true equation. I hope this is helpful to you. Sincerely, Elyse Gardner

[@vanilla_bean496]

My2Cents horses where here with the Indians before people from Europe came, please learn history.

[@BreannBree]

Creating Happy Mondays Yes but we eat cattle not horses.

[@jamieword8206]

I think they are trying to do the right thing it's not a perfect world

[@sam3206]

Purgatory; www.livescience.com/9589-surprising-history-america-wild-horses.html

[@kanthony65]

They are actually being very gentle with the foal.

[@HumaneObserver]

Yes, this is true. They are doing a reasonable job of guiding this very weak foal. He needs to get back to his mother, needs to eat and be quiet where he can rest. I hope his feet are okay. The helicopter stampedes on this very hard lava rock are brutal on the feet of many of the horses. The hard hooves of adult mustangs get worn down but can handle it if the helicopter chase isn't excessively long. But running 8 to 15 or 20 miles on hard rock will wear even the hardest feet. But the youngsters whose feet are not yet hard really suffer and will die or need to be put down if their hooves slough off. They need need to get that foal to the trap pen where his mother already is. The foal fell behind, could not keep up. The problem with this situation is it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Please learn more about the wild horses and the role they play on our public lands by going to WildHorseEducation.org. Thank you for your comment.

[@judithcampbell3354]

That poor foal will never see it’s family again and that’s IF it lives! Watching this tragedy is horrific cruelty and truly heartbreaking!

[@debbiemackey8587]

he still needs his mom

[@supermomflyaway330]

I am ok with controlling the horse numbers in the wild just like elk, deer and bears. If that means rounding them, sending the excess to slaughter- so that population control is dealt with= I'm ok with that. I do think it is terrible to terrorize a horse with a helicopter or kill a horse in a manner that is not swift. But lets face it-- wildfires and starvation are greater enemies to those mustangs than the ones that are rounded up and sold to trainers who make an easy 15K per horse. The deer, antelope, moose, buffalo, elk, wild goats and wild sheep all need to eat on blm land, too. So I understand it is distressing to see a herd caught-- but I try to keep perspective on all the others grazers that inhabit that acreage, as well.

[@Tommyman1121]

+Supermom Flyaway - Slaughter houses are not quick deaths, they are painfully slow for the horse.

[@supermomflyaway330]

TombstoneGaming a bolt into the skull is pretty swift. Few horses suffer. A bullet would be fine, as well.

[@HumaneObserver]

+TombstoneGaming Please watch this video to its end and then tell me how humane horse slaughter is. These issues are far too common, I am afraid. All proponent of horse slaughter should watch this video. Warning: graphic and very disturbing footage. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4SsZmdsmrmLatE

[@supermomflyaway330]

Death by bolt or bullet is humane. You want to start another conversation about care while awaiting slaughter--- we can do that too. I have no illusions that animals going to slaughter are not going to be pampered. Nor should they be. I would expect quality meat, not fat

[@HumaneObserver]

+Supermom Flyaway Well, Ms. Flyaway, you will likely be surprised to learn that the BLM makes NO provision for wildlife on public land with cattle grazing allotments. Look at the percentages allotted for cattle and for horses: it's approximately 78 percent cattle and 12 percent horses in many Herd Management Areas. Many people don't even eat cows anymore, yet private ranchers think they are entitled to use our public to graze their cattle at taxpayer expense and keep their profits to themselves. Did you watch the video at the link I posted for you? You start your statement above by saying, "Death by bolt or bullet is humane." There are two things wrong with that statement as I see it: 1) The "bolt" does not kill, so there is no "death by bolt"; the captive bolt is meant to render the horses unconscious. In most cases it does not do that when used to "stun" the horses once. It often takes 2 or 3, sometimes 5 or 6 smashes in the head with the captive bolt - in fact, that poor Belgian in the video was stunned 11 times. 11 times! That should be a criminal offense, cruelty to animals. 2) "Humane" by definition means "having or showing compassion or benevolence." There is absolutely NOTHING humane in stunning a horse more than once. If the horse is not immediately unconscious, it is no longer "humane." If an animal experiences fear and pain in the course of being killed, that is NOTa humane death. I don't know where you got your information, but what I see on that video is not at all humane. Are you ready to recognize that is a false statement? If you persist in stating that, you are lying to people. A horse can deal with the natural issues on the range, but a slaughterhouse is unacceptable. Please educate yourself about why is really going on on the range before taking the strong position you are taking. Please go to KW

[@HumaneObserver]

No, this is in very northeastern California in the Twin Peaks herd management area (HMA).

[@vldotson44]

@ Sarah, I just watched the video too. I couldn't see any abuse either. These two men who took their time bringing this foal back to the herd and they weren't jerking the ropes! This happens to be a very good way to teach them to lead. They did not drag this foal by they neck!!! And when they got to the corrals, they put another foal in with it to keep him company. Foals get weaned at 6 months, so if these foals are not 6 months they will reunite them with their mothers.

[@debg6101]

vldotson44 your missing the point, BLM should leave bands out if the foals cant keep up but they dont, thats the point of the video if youd listened.

[@PiggyDog89]

That colt is big enough to be weaned and thus big enough to not need its mother

[@emilygabrielse3196]

These foals were handled perfectly fine.. I did not see them treated in humanly at all. The rope under the tail is not to harm the foal but to guide it forward. As you can see at the end, they seemed perfectly content with each other. Those gentlemen could have easily left the foal out on the range and not bothered to go get him, but they calmly and respectfully led him back to his herd.

[@bg588]

Well said.

[@jessicajones8185]

Emily McCormick I agree if it wasn't pushed to go on it would have a heart broken momma and it wouldn't have seen a vet to check to see what was wrong with it

[@shelleynabors1970]

Nothing wrong with how this near yearling, well old enough to be weaned foal was handled at all. It was perfectly humane and normal handling of any baby wild or domestic.

[@debg6101]

Your missing the point entirely!

[@liamoran6446]

Emily McCormick girl this is a little hate DID YOU NOT SEE THE ROPE AROUND THE POOR OTHER FOALS NECK

[@animalfactor5537]

Leave that poor foal alone . In the wild foals keep close to there mothers in order to be safe and imagine what the mother is going through right now

[@reneeherboldt9779]

2 words... ANIMAL ABUSE! you just leave 2 foals in a yard with each other and no mare to feed them! they will starve and die! not that any of those round up people care, They don't get dragged forward by a rope in between their legs (ouch)! They don't have any feelings! i disapprove of wild horse round ups! THEY ARE CRUEL!! and hey i may be 11 but i have a strong voice! And i intend to use it! I will fight for the horses freedom no matter what it takes! FULL STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@Graycata]

I highly doubt they were left alone for too long.

[@cassiebradley5632]

people are so stupid ... yes leave the feral horses ( who are not natural to the united states ) alone and they will eat everything in sight and starve to death, along the lines killing all other wild life in the area too... and btw .. if they left that foal alone, he would have died... you guys have really got to start educating yourselves before throwing out this "OHH POOR BABY" BS ... and those riders were being gentle. THE ROPE UNDER HIS TAIL DOESNT HURT HIM ... you people are so annoying... sure lets leave the 6 month old foal out in the wilderness to starve and die... or bring it to its mother in the most humane way possible, by having two riders who are incredibly gentle guide him... do you think they can just go out and put a halter on its head and lead it back? .... SMDH GET EDUCATED

[@HumaneObserver]

To clarify, on the wild horses' and burros' legal lands, we want those ranges to be managed as the 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act states, 'principally but not necessarily exclusively for their welfare." Instead, on the horses remaining legal land, they are outnumbered by privately owned livestock. And only 2 to 4 percent of the cows people are eating graze the public land, so it would not affect the price of beef. We just want the horses to be allowed to remain on their legal ranges.

[@RedBev59]

Chasing these horses with helicopters and making the mares run off so fast........they suffer too once they can't find their baby. SOOOOO, what do you people do with these foals you find......what you call.........LEFT BEHIND. If you didn't chase them none would be left behind.

[@melannjohnston7506]

This very disturbing to to see the foals without their Moms. I understand culling the herd, but these babies are just too small to be away from their Mom's. I hope all ends well with these little ones.

[@madisongasper]

STUPID PEOPLE they shouldn't be able to do that to horses :'(

[@floydsattitude9255]

The fact that these babies are just abandoned by people makes me so upset! Stop messing with nature but glad these guys picked them up

[@miraleatardiff8543]

What this is is a quiet, unruffled escort, no one got upset, the pace was slow and steady for the foal. The rope under the tail is not cruel - it was used to get it to move forward, and the pressure was released once the foal moved. This method works quite well with teaching young horses to lead. Yes, they will kick a bit and flick their tails, but once they get what it is that is being asked, they will do just what this foal did, move forward in a calm and quiet manner. I would rather see the foal escorted this way, than see it roped, choked down and dragged kicking and squalling all the way to the pens.

[@HumaneObserver]

I agree this was a reasonable escort. However, if you look at my earlier replies to various comments, I explained that what I object to is the roundup itself. Managing wild horses on the range should include population controls and controlled removals of only young, adoptable horses. Population controls should be via humanely administered methods slowing the reproductive rate. Proactive management of wild populations does not equate to constant violent helicopter removals which terrorize the horses and destroy many family bands. The current means of "managing" wild horse populations via frequent (every couple of years) helicopter roundups is not true "management" and severely stresses and violates the natural way the wild population of horses live. Helicopter rounds are extremely expensive and result in injuries and deaths and a great deal of suffering and trauma to these sensitive, completely herd-oriented animals. The NAS (National Academy of Sciences) conducted a two-year study of the BLM's wild horse management program and concluded the current methods of "management" via roundups is not at all based on science and unsustainable .

[@toddmorris3635]

They need a drink of water ASAP. These babies are dehydrated. Not good facilities or care for any of these horses.

[@ciasarah376]

leave the horses live on the land stop the slaughter of these beautiful animals they have helped us in war and saved us from being destroyed now you want to kill them...why dont you treat yourselfs a few times like these horses are treated and see how you like it...we are america we should love these animals not destroy them...this is so cruel...how would you feel if you was one of the horses being caught..think about that for a few minutes and see how you feel...

[@Animalmoresweet]

I do agree with this method of leading a foal/ weanling I too have found this the easiest way for foal and human if you think round ups should stop tell or get rid of all causes and help protect their lands also all you people who have no or little horse knowledge bashing this video don't waste your time here there are better things you Can be doing with this time like volunteering with horses or animal shelters....

[@shycountrymiss]

Before all of you chime in with your comments- How many of you own a mustang?Have worked with mustangs? Have spent your money to help the mustangs? My mare is a Twin Peaks, and Im glad she was rounded up because shes deaf. How long a life would she had lived in the wild? Shes covered in scars given her by the other mustangs. One an almost crippling injury on her left rear hock. Why? Because she couldnt hear their warnings, and wouldnt move away when the horses told her to.

[@hannahphillips2161]

I. just. want. to. cry. rite. now. !!!!!!😭😭😭😭🙍😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

[@HumaneObserver]

Lomez969, it's not an either/or. A major reason our wild horses are being run off their homes is so private livestock grazers can use our public land instead of buy hay to feed their animals like the rest of us.BLM manages 240milln acres public land. Privately owned cattle&sheep graze 160M acres of that.1971 WIld Horse Act said horses could stay on the 53 million acres they were on, but that is now down to only 26M. Cows outnumber horses 4to1 on what's left.We just want horses2have their land.

[@HumaneObserver]

@rsbloml You sound like a thinking person. I aim to educate people about the whole story. I am not accusing anyone of abusing this foal in this video; the situation, however, is fatal for the wild horses in a number of ways. If you read my responses to the different comments, it will help shed some light on the big picture. Thank you for your comment. I hope you will continue to view and even subscribe to my blog at humaneobserver.blogspot.com and also read the blogs and websites I reference.

[@kellygriffith9547]

this video works well to showthe good handling they are giving these babies.

[@HumaneObserver]

@PiggyDog89 Your comment, though factually accurate, in no way justifies this massive, unnecessary roundup, nor does it justify treating wild horses in this manner. It's like saying, God forbid, if a 13-year-old's parents were killed in an accident, "Well, she's old enough to cook for herself." Horses aren't people, but can you see how your comment fails to address the total devastation and trauma of the roundup and its repercussions.

[@theresachevallard5129]

This so cruel and inhumane. They do not even give them water or feed. How can this be recorded and not reported???

[@WachdByBigBrother]

The BLM and Salazar were recently caught doing just that and now they are under investigation. Mustangs with the freeze brand were showing up south of the border but they weren't described on the papers. Apparently there's more that connects the BLM to this.

[@TR7400]

This foal was brought in calmly, the rope under the tail does not hurt the foal. Also the foal does not look weakend to me. The horses in the holding pen are all calm as well. The only thing I would have liked to see is water for the horses after they had been rounded up, however I know they are only in the holding pens for a short time before they are taken to another location. I was actually quite impressed with this group of people doing the roundup.

[@madisongasper]

THEIR EVEN TAKING THE MOTHERS OUT NOW IM MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@lizzyhodges9071]

I'm sorry I'm so upset right now thank you so much for bringing this story to us and keeping us informed of what's going on with the BLM

[@LopeForestLope]

So they just left the poor things in the pen all by themselves??? How awful!!! :(((

[@eege742]

WISH ONE WOULD TREAT THEM LIKE THIS ! Horses/animals are free, not a THING! Animals let humans live in freedom so act alike if you have brains. WE OWE NATURE TO BE KIND TO EVERY BEAUTIFUL SOUL. Most humans tend to forget that we all share this planet🌎🌍🌏. With the same rights!

[@HEMI-MOMMA]

I will NEVER understand how ANY person who has horses could take part in such barbaric roundups!

[@ceh43528]

Get over yourselves, these guys had a job to do, and look, they even gently rounded up the stranded babies and you people are angry?! Then you accuse them of only being nice because they're on camera? You all have a brain between your ears, use them before you start being a part of the problem instead of the solutions. Being mad that these guys did this is like being mad that someone stopped traffic to help a mother duck and her babies cross a road.

[@brendadarr6291]

Our tax dollars is paying for this abuse and the slaughter of the horses. What kind of country are we becoming? We the people have got to let the cold hearted officials who are behind this we are tired of this bull and it's going to stop. People have you thought of where the money is going from the sell of these horses? Well, I'll bet a lot if not all is going in someone's pocket.

[@mackenzie5921]

that is technically abuse

[@RedBev59]

the lady filiming this sounds like she's chewing gum LOUDLY. LOL So now they're penned. Do they get water. STOP CHEWING IN THE MIKE LADY. geezuz

[@JaneDoe-ur5jf]

stop letting cattlemen over stock grazing land THAT THEY PAY A PITTENTS TO GOVERNMENT TO RENT!!!!!! This is their wild land. Let horses alone.

[@melissawalker3874]

I completely agree with you about not using a helicopter to round them up and drive them. Use a higher flying copter to find them, then have riders bring in the band at a pace that all can keep. These babies got lucky. Back when the military would round up horses straggler foals would be left behind or shot. What bothers me most is the foals alone. They need their mums milk after that long walk

[@HumaneObserver]

Wow, that is a very powerful comment. Brought tears to my eyes.It reflects the disillusionment a lot of us feel toward our government. I sincerely thank you for your service, though. We are still a great nation. Each one of us needs to live according to our highest standards in our daily lives if this nation is going to make it. Unfortunately, our leaders simply reflect the fallen nature of humanity. We don't like what we see, so we better start with the man in the mirror to change things.

[@shyfillie3368]

LEAVE wild 🐴 alone. They DON'T NEED STUPID HUMAN INTERACTION. Foals will automatically follow their moms.

[@kathyogden5749]

to bad the foal couln't be taking to a good home to love. I had aweek old mustang filly, mom died of old age. Honey grew up hey you become the best pick pockets on my place. she was the first mustang to be showin in 4 h in my county and lived to be the rip old age of 27

[@lpsproductions9220]

humans can be mean and cruel

[@nnael05]

Just like those horses are being used to round up their own kind for murder, those people are just doing a job. This is wrong on their part, as humans we have the ability to reason, and question. These men need to not look at it as just a job, but how inhumane it is to run these roundups, supply a cruel industry, that claims these horses will starve. I have yet to see a starving herd, and it's not due to these roundups. Let nature takes it's course, if some shall die in nature, vultures will eat

[@RedBev59]

Of course he doesn't look so good......he's a foal..........was running scared and is probably in need to nurse or drink water. Stop chasing their moms away. Chasing horses is a sick hobby.

[@tammlen2284]

...don't see problem. Looks to be a very professional and gentle horse handling. Don't know the circumstances. But in our area, wild horses are over populated, and due to drought, die very slow ugly deaths. Film something like that for perspective.---

[@HumaneObserver]

Might I ask what area you are in? Because horses shouldn't be dying slowly of drought; that is cause for emergency gather. That is not common. Less than 5 percent of roundups are due to emergency. The horses and foal you see in this video were not in drought. Their condition was great. They were being marginalized on one of their few remaining legal areas to live, called an HMA (Herd Management Area) and outnumbered by grazing cattle. The ranchers who own the cattle are grazing their privately owned cows on one of the few areas of public land the wild horses are allowed to live, and the cattle are being allowed to outnumber the wild horses, who only have these few places to BE, by up to 50 cows for every wild horse. The ranchers pay only $1.35 PER MONTH to graze a cow and her calf. FACTS: - 246 Million acres of public land is managed by BLM (Bureau of Land Management) across the west; - 160 Million acres are managed for cattle grazing - 27 Million acres are Herd Management Areas (HMAs), the only legal places on public land wild horses are allowed to live (In 1971 when the Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act was passed to protect wild horses and ensure them the right to live on our public lands, they were promised 53 Million acres to live on, where they were then "presently found," in 1971. That has been reduced down to the 27 million acres I speak of. Wild horses and burros are being squeezed off their legal lands, and that is why we are objecting. The foal you see in this video was on his legal home, but even in those 27 million acres wild horses can live, they are outnumbered by cattle. No cattle and no horses were starving on that land. What was happening is the government was stealing that horse's dinner and giving it to the cows. My figures are taken from the Bureau of Land Management. What you are regurgitating to me is the propaganda that "wild horses are overpopulated" that the ranchers and BLM constantly spews out like a mantra, but only in a few areas are the horses actually overpopulated. We don't want to abolish cattle grazing, but we do want the wild horses to be given what was promised to them and allowed to thrive and live, and to be given priority in their legal HMAs, that 27 million acres that remains to them. Thank you for your interest. I hope this helps balance your understanding.

[@tammlen2284]

+Elyse Gardner ...I've lived in Northern Nevada all my life, traveling, hunting, and working as a geologist, in much of the country populated by these wild horses. So I'm not spewing any "propaganda". I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, regarding this issue. But I get tired of videos and media stories, which typically over-romanticize the life of these so-called "wild" horses, and make ranchers the bad guy. These horses are domesticated animals. And it is sad they have to live such a hard life, fending for themselves, without ever living with the purpose they were bred for, along with the comfort of human contact and interaction. Sure, the colts and young horses are cute. And running horses are always a beautiful and magnificent sight. What is not so beautiful, is seeing the fate of those same horses when they grow old, or get injured, or diseased. They suffer terribly. It can take a long time for them to die. And that is, if they are not first torn apart, having their entrails slowly pulled out by coyotes or other predators, while they are still alive and struggling to get away. And I am no fan of the BLM or the environmental groups, which often just add to the problem, because of all their stupid rules and regulations. But there is always two sides to any story. However, the side I've seen, are ranchers being faulted or demonized for many of the problems that were made worse by the government and well-meaning environmentalists and animal activists. Those people who work and manage ranches, are not some type of greedy, cruel, monsters. Most love that land, and the animals that populate it, more than any outsiders will ever know. And most are good stewards. But nobody will listen to them. They're too busy slapping fees and regs around, which does NOTHING to help the problem. What I've seen, aside from dying horses, are critical watering spots drying up, because the ranchers are no longer able to fence off springs, and pipe the water to metal troughs. Not allowed to "disturb" the natural environment. Noooo, that would be a sin. So instead, open range cattle and wild horses destroy the springs, stomping them close, with no place to get clean water during summer. Then I've seen range land ruined, because it's not properly grazed to control weed grasses that are worthless feed for wildlife or horses. Then there's the "roadless" policy. Can no longer create dirt roads or firebreak zones. That would be disturbing the land too, another sin. But then along comes a lightning storm, a fire starts, and with all the weeds, and no firebreaks, thousands of acres are destroyed. That's what has happened in our area. And as a result, they have had to do roundups, and open special hunt seasons to kill deer (does), to prevent starvation in winter. And it will take years before the land recovers. Rounding these horses up for adoption, is also not a good thing. Kept in crowded pens until adopted (or processed). And adoption can be pretty ugly too. You get people adopting horses, who have no idea how to take care of them. We had a person near us doing this. She was an animal hoarder. These poor horses were kept barely alive. Thirsty and in a state of constant starvation, all the time. And when local people here, including me, finally get the sheriff to charge her with animal cruelty, the liberal judge lets her OFF!!! She finally moved somewhere else, taking these poor animals with her. I was so glad I didn't have to witness their suffering anymore. So again, please don't tell me I'm just falling for propaganda. Maybe those so concerned about wild horses should go live and work on a ranch, and get a different perspective. If these horses were in good shape, as they appeared to be, it was probably because that rancher cared enough not to let their population get out of control, while still enabling him to make a living, and provide food to people. I don't know the answer to this problem. But my suggestion would be a merciful bullet to the head. And use this method to keep the herds culled of the old, diseased, or lame. With a good marksman, it could be done from a distance. They'd never know what hit them. And it would least disturb, the other horses. Perhaps, the BLM could hire retired Veterans that were trained as snipers. It would provide them jobs; save these horses from the trauma of being rounded up and a merciful end; and be a whole lot cheaper. Anyway, that's my perspective, for what it's worth.----

[@HumaneObserver]

@KaliAppaloosaBlog @KaliAppaloosaBlog It's the circumstance itself that's abusive; it should never have come to this. It is the roundup itself that abuses them. Theyr not injuring him leading him this way but It became obvious as I watched that this foal was weak. Dave Cattoor did not let it stop and rest, I believe because he feared it might collapse. Foals are regularly left behind. BLM refuses to mount video cameras, refuses accountability, refuses to limit the distance horses are driven.

[@Oakleaf700]

Poor babes. Painful to watch them bond with a strange horse-even momentarily-and then be separated.

[@samanthapels2271]

Left behind Where's that to see? This will definitely be such a movie where the story has been twisted. Come on, foolish people, do not believe everything from the internet 😂

[@rockymodels9903]

Yes that's why animals are depressed ,and wild brumbies/Mustangs population is decreasing due to people capturing them

[@earthairfirewater1]

Shouldn't be gathered up in the first place, but glad these cowboys used there head and took it slow.

[@elenalombardo4216]

Almighty God in the name of Jesu save the wild horses, domestic horses, donkeys, burros, mules from being slaughtered. They are the Yours best gift that could give us. Deus cuius Providentia non fallitur Te supplice exoramus ut noxia cunctas submoveas in nomine Jesu Christi

[@LadyTSurvival]

the colt was just tired he wasnt limping from an injury. and he was not halter broken so they couldnt just lead him to his mama they had to herd him.

[@LadyTSurvival]

they were not hurting the foal by taking him with them to the trap... they saved its life it would have been mountain lion or coyote food if they didnt reunite him with his mama

[@AnimalLeftist]

So sad, that poor foal, obviously exhausted. Thank you for doing this heartbreaking work.

[@kawaiipotato7830]

People stop having a go at the blm that have to do this if they don't then horse numbers will go and the good they eat will be gone and all the water holes will dry up and then horses will die because of that so what do u want for them to reduce the number of wild horses by making they rideable and tamed or just let them die because of the increasing number of them

[@jessicabenard6855]

So what I'm reading is that you are the good guys not the other ranglers where they take mustangs and sell the to slaughter houses. Please say you are the good guys I love horses with a passion amd always wanted to protect the Mustangs but have no way of doing so. I just don't want to them disappear of the earth.

[@HumaneObserver]

Jessica Benard Yes, Jessica, I am one of the "good guys" standing up for our wild horses and their right to live on the public lands the 1971 Congress sought to secure for them. Go to www.wildhorseeducation.org to learn more about the facts, not just "spin" in either direction, and about how you can help. Also www.wildhorsepreservation. The foal you see in this video and his parents lived in the last large herd in California, the Twin Peaks horses in northern California. BLM removed 1639 horses in this roundup, leaving only approximately 650 horses; they removed 160 burros. 14 horses died during the roundup, and 1 burro also died during the roundup operations.'' THANK YOU for your interest and participation for our wild horses. - Elyse Gardner

[@jessicabenard6855]

oh thank you so much im actually doing a petition for here in Canada just maade a video ac couple of days ago but thank you i love horses with all my heart i dont know what i will do with out them

[@susanflowers7425]

I get so angry every time I see those helicopters from BLM Chasing those poor horse's. Makes me sick!

[@Skippytrucking]

I have been to several round ups, and the babies are simply left behind- Care is not taken to ensure the seperated foals that are recovered survive. They are often left in a pen with zero shade or water for several days...and Ive seen at least one left alone for a week..and it died.

[@cousiwa09]

That grey looks lame on the nearside hind.

[@debbushee6970]

this makes me sick to my stomach I have owned horses and even mules and would love to own a gain someday

[@HumaneObserver]

I understand. But now, this is small compared to what wild horses are facing under the current administration, which is slaughter and permanent removal from many areas. Please go to wildhorseeducation.org to stay updated and find out what we can do. They are starting to pass laws to legalize horse slaughter and to kill all the wild horses in holding facilities and being boarded in "long-term holding" on ranches in Kansas, which the Bureau of Land Managements contracts with to care for captured wild horses. There are 2 issues: 1) Wild horses being killed, massacred, basically. This is SEPARATE from legalizing domestic horse slaughter, which is also being pushed forward right now, but that is a separate issue from killing/destroying all the captured wild horses.This will amount to killing over 50,000 healthy wild horses. It's unthinkable. 2) Under the current administration and Republican-driven Congress, the federal government is rapidly passing laws turning control of Federal lands (also called "public land") to the individual states wherein they lie. So national treasures like wild horses, or grizzly bears, or wolves, will be subjected to profit-driven locals who do not have a big-picture appreciation of the value of this wildlife. These things spell great suffering and disaster for our wild horses. Please go to www.wildhorseeducation.org for guidance on actions we can and must take on behalf of the wild horses. We can stop this, but it will take all of us speaking out, and speaking loudly! Please call your Congressional representatives. Please check that link for action steps we can take. Thank you!

[@chfar072281]

What is the point of this video? The cowboy's were extremely gentle with this foal. 99% of the time, the foal is abandoned due to the cost incurred in order to retrieve it. Choose your battles....

[@kathrynbruchhauser1890]

Too much controversy to comment, but I will give the two wranglers some credit. They were very slow and patient with the little foal. That was a long, slow trek from where they found him/her to the pen with the others. They did seem to care about the little guy. With respect to allowing the little guy to suckle or give water during the ordeal, that would be a perfect world...........which we just don't have.

[@HumaneObserver]

Agreed. I have no problem with the manner of these wranglers. I am reporting on and documenting wild horses and our govt's management and policies and implementation of same. I am a watchdog on behalf of the horses, ready to praise the excellent handling and go after abuse. If horses need to be captured -- and the politics of deciding numbers and reasons for this take place long before the roundup, and the roundup is NOT the time to discuss those decisions -- they must be done humanely. Wild Horse Education has fought for and finally pushed BLM via the courts int implementing the CAWP, the Comprehensive Animal Welfare Program, which sets forth actual standards for humane handling. One area still needing real attention is the helicopter pilot practices. It SHOULD NOT BE commonly accepted that foals get left behind. The terror of not being able to stay with momma and the family band, the exhaustion that has to occur before a baby, or any horse, gives up and falls behind, can hardly be imagined by us predators. Horses are a prey species and herd-animal, and the capture process must be fine-tuned so that foals left behind is extremely rare, not commonplace. I documented several roundups during 2020, and I was appallled to see how routinely wranglers are sent out to find foals who could not continue and were left on the range. This needs serious attention yet I do not hear it being addressed, so I will be highlighting it more. Thank you for your comment.

[@angelabota835]

What am I supposed to do I've protect you these horses for so long but nobody will listen

[@kimcentofanti4235]

LEAVE THEM ALONE..YOU DID THE SAME THING TO THE WOLVES IN THE 70s AND KILLED THEM. GONNA DO THAT TO THE HORSES TOO????

[@ALilBitOfSaint]

(2/2) They're not doing this to them to wipe them out, they're doing it so that there is a healthy amount, yet not so many that we have wild mustangs running through the cities. And i'm sorry, but horses is another stock breed. Just like cattle and pigs. Doesn't mean you can't love em, but that also doesn't mean that sometimes they're just meant for meat..If yall love mustangs so much and are so for them being treated humanely, why don't yall adopt some? We all know that they need to be adopted!

[@ALilBitOfSaint]

(1/2) I absolutely love the mustangs and wish we could save em all, but you have to be realistic here. The mustang is not indigneous to the Americas, therefore they have no natural predators. Mustangs are increasing by an unbelievable amount, an amount that is not controllable! They have to do the roundups and sell them to meat companys to keep the populations down. It's just like hunting - they allow a certain amount of tags each year to keep the population down.

[@hangoookyujah]

Horses are beautiful, magnificent creatures that deserve to be wild and free. They end up going to slaughterhouses(if not bought), shipped to either Canada or Mexico in double decker buses without food or water for over 24 hours only to then be put to death either by a stun gun or shot in the head. Sad thing is, that is not the end for a lot of horses. A lot of times they do not die and get strung up by one leg only to then have their neck slit open and then their belly slit from neck to crotch.

[@hollyparker6379]

Although it is sad to see such a young baby loose his/her mother then be pushed by two horses. HOWEVER!!! not once did I see the two men get impatient and drag the foal to the pen instead they used time to push it to the corral. Does anyone want to guess what would have happened if the foal was left? Yep it would die. Wild horses and placing buckets of water would make an ugly mess of an accident the wild horse has no idea what a bucket is. Ban the Chopper and do it the old way on horses.

[@Turboy65]

Only about 2 percent of the cattle raised for beef are grazed on BLM lands. The PRIVATE cattle industry can damned well afford to NOT graze on BLM lands at taxpayer expense. I say, kick ALL the cows off of BLM lands and let the horses have their OWN land back. I'm in favor of intelligent herd management practices, but lately the BLM has not been practicing that. They've been bowing to the pressure from the cattle ranchers who want MORE cheap land to graze stupid cows no.

[@Sonialei77]

@Sonialei77 And I'd also like to add that just because we don't ALL see it the same that doesn't mean that you have to come across as a junk yard dog and making everyone feel like they're wrong just because we don't all agree with you. We aren't there, we don't see everything you do and because of that these videos are open for debate. Close the comments if our opinions are so bothersome!

[@Sonialei77]

@HumaneObserver Well, we don't know this from the video... we just see them crowding him. If there is a point to be made by this video is that they do get left behind by the herd, not by BLM. I don't agree with ALL of the BLM practices but I do think that a lot of times, things are blown out of proportion by people who only show us what THEY want us to see and that seems to be the case with this video. If this is true that he was ready to collapse from exhaustion then you might include in video

[@kkpanda13]

Everyone thinks they're being nice because they're being filmed. Some people have hearts and those videos about the roundups have people thinking that all the horses are terribley "abused". Sure, some are hurt. BUt without these roundups, the Western U.S. would be overrun with wild horses. These are essential to mantaining wild horse populations. Unless you want the horses to be shot instead, this is the most humane method to controlling the population and they often go to good homes.

[@akanewe]

@bhamblin1 Damn right it does and in some places much worse than others. I maintain what I said cos I'm pinning that particular BLM problem to the USA, the vid is from there and that particular problem of wild horse destruction is there. Other abuses on animals elsewhere are just as denounceable of course.Yet the wild horse "problem" in England (New Forest), Wales, Lesotho, Mongolia or Russia is in itself different(never excusing abuse of course). That's why I mentioned the USA thing.

[@Rockonchick2]

freedom of wild horses must we seperate something from this it not natural enough it take us human farther farther from natural life ... money is nothing life is important respecting wild horses this little foal is lost it give you no feeling it cold when it seperate something that does not belong to you u stole the natural beauty mother n her foal belong in the wild together! free n beauty n bond of nature natural love running free peaceful ... this picture tell us alot knowing you stole

[@akanewe]

Great job you do giving all that time and attention. I am a horse lover and owner and glad not be be in or from USA. The problem is always the same, there is space, money and time to do it all properly yet the interests of the most powerful will always surface. Cattle tycoons push for control of your public land and get it, why? Money calls money and power calls power. Yet every single action you take will always generate SOMETHING positive for your horses, keep spirits high and good luck.

[@nohemibeebc4372]

all I can say is we should do it like other counties gathered them up all in a circle and try to wrestle them with out hands to tamed them that way it actually worth it

[@HumaneObserver]

The foals are usually reunited with their mothers at the temporary holding facility. They keep them separate from the adult horses to protect them from injury during transport. I don't believe these wranglers would have intentionally left the foal out there if I wasn't there. My concern is that babies should not be getting left behind at all. If a band has foals that can't keep up, leave the band alone.

[@HumaneObserver]

Hi Knolegethis1313: Yes,there is no obvious abuse in this video.That this baby couldn't keep up with his family (and many more like him), ran far as he could,terrified by a helicopter off his legal land, that's the abuse.Cows outnumber wild horses in the limited acreage wild horses and burros are legally allowed to inhabit.160 million acres have cattle grazing; 26 million for wild horses. And cows outnumber wild horses on the vast majority of that 26m by at least 5 cows to1 horse, at least.

[@HumaneObserver]

It's very sad, but they did save more than one.But this shouldn't be happening to begin with.How many get left behind? How many can they not find when they go back to retrieve them? Horrifying for a little one to fall behind, spent with burning lungs gasping for air and tender soft hooves, must watch his family disappear out of sight chased by helicopter? Subscribe to the organizations listed on front of my blog, and see June 2012 blog to see foal feet humaneobserver. blogspot. com omit spaces

[@HumaneObserver]

I agree; you are correct. But please realize what you see is one of hundreds of infants who can't keep up because to accommodate hunters, roundups are conducted during foaling season instead of later in the year. Some accountability is needed. How many are stranded who are never reported? Please don't try to justify the mismanagement of the wild horse & burro program. I don't deny there are times to round up horses, but a humane care standard is long overdue. There isn't one at present.

[@HumaneObserver]

That wasn't a mare. The sorrel horse with the halter on who they removed from the pen was not a mare; he is the Judas horse, who is trained to run ahead of the wild horses as they are entering the V-shaped trap, leading them to the bottom end of the V into a pen. The Judas horse was still in the pen. These babies have never been without their elders before, and we can see how panicked they became when the adult horses all left the pen. So that wasn't a mare; that was a gelding.

[@HumaneObserver]

@chfar072281 Yes. thanks for asking. The point is awareness of roundups, educating the public, and what happens despite BLM's assurances that "mares are allowed to drop back with their foals." That's not the way it happens. One point is there are no parameters on distance horses can be run/chased. This baby is exhausted, which is why he fell behind. Some are orphaned, some are never found. I address my "points" in dialogue you can read in these comments. Feel free to email [e-mail]

[@HumaneObserver]

@Sonialei77 "He got left behind by the herd" is only a quarter of the story: please don't forget that the herd was being chased by a helicopter and as far as they're concerned were running for their lives. You can count on it that the only reason this baby got left behind was because he simply could go no further and probably thought he was going to die. Please; I am a simple court reporter from CA. How I wish this weren't happening. I am here so people can see what is really happening.

[@HumaneObserver]

@rsbloml I love your faith; I used to trust my government too. But they are not trying to make it better for the horses. The competition for the land is fierce: livestock, foreign and domestic investors in mineral extraction, water rights: The Wild Free-Roaming Horse & Burro Act is being violated is what's happening here. WIld horses are supposed to have priority on this land; it's one of the few Herd Management Areas left. Instead, they are outnumberd by livestock 4 to 1, for starters.

[@HumaneObserver]

@HumaneObserver They didn't take the mom away; baby fell behind when his family was running from the helicopter. He couldn't keep up and was left out there. Terrifying experience for a foal. Sometimes they can't find babies left behind. Young foals should not be subjected to long helicopter chases. But mom is hopefully already in the trap pen. If BLM thinks he still needs to nurse, he'll be put in with the wet mares when they get to the holding facilitiy and hopefully pair back up with her.