"Fog of War": Errol Morris and Robert McNamara interview (2003)

Director Errol Morris and former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara describe their documentary "Fog of War" which follows the life of McNamara and his experience in modern warfare.
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[@whatitisnt2094]

Rose just can't help himself from interrupting the person he is interviewing.

[@cstocki]

unbearable

[@davidsmith-hb1jx]

Agree with McNamara or not. The sharpness of his intellect and memory recall is amazing for 87.

[@mikecummings6593]

You would remember everything about being responsible for killing Millions to

[@Yo_Kelz]

You can tell he's been working hard on coming up with excuses.

[@deanwallis183]

On just a human level, it is amazing testament to the man that he was not only willing to share his life lessons to benefit other decision-makers, but that he could think and speak in such detail and with such balance at a very old age. Amazing

[@fruff30]

He gets no brownie points for stating the obvious after all these years. He was WRONG DEAD WRONG and admitting as much won't erase any of the blood he has on his hands. Mcnamara went to his grave knowing that he was responsible for the deaths of countless innocent people. R.I.P (Rot In Piss) Mr. McNamara.

[@Scorch428]

and all while being interrupted and talked down to by Mr. Grabby Grab

[@jackccrofootjr7228]

@@Scorch428 Do you really believe that an unrepentant man of such arrogance should be allowed to justified his Murderous Actions uninterrupted.

[@Yo_Kelz]

...a product of a lifetime of thinking up excuses for one of history's biggest, most brutal mistakes.

[@ptroinks]

It's such a joy to watch intelligent people discussing important topics!

[@robertchflynn]

What a dolt you are...

[@adams8847]

Very smart

[@bscannady1]

Such an important Film (Fog of War) and follow up interview. Thanks for posting!

[@adams8847]

Love that saying seems like can apply today 😢

[@jamy8575]

Let a man finish a sentence --Mr. ROSE

[@danielwernegren8749]

And stop hammering tge table 😅

[@chrisn.6477]

It’s ok to interrupt war criminals. I think you’re criticizing the wrong man at the table.

[@SamvedIyer]

@Elijah Bruno Funny, I recall seeing these two comments pertinent to flixzone verbatim on another channel.

[@LSDforEveryone]

Lol homeboy got me too'ed

[@tomiarola2348]

@@SamvedIyer so true. Annoying ass.

[@skinnybones01]

In spite of all this man's failures God bless him for speaking publicly about his thinking process

[@64maxpower]

Having a conversation with Rose is like having a conversation with my wife. Why are you asking me questions if you don't want to hear the answers?

[@TheIfifi]

I enjoyed the talk with Rose and Hitchens, was totally different. He didn't seem like a very good interviewer here.

[@fredhoupt4078]

powerful. I've seen the documentary several times and it is excellent. A complex man who was at the centre of such seminal and controversial vortices.

[@frederickmiles327]

Better to watch the actual dock film which is well edited and clarifies McNamara opinion. Asked directly on Charlie Rose, Mac is too polite and neutral for good reason. One point that needs to be understood that in 1962 as now in military planning and in any operational or war decision, the political leadership President, Sec of Defence are competing with the military leadership, Staff 5 star Admirals and Generals and thirds the actual ground level commanders, submarine commanders and destroyer captains, who may themselves actually be determined to take the traditional officers prerogative to start the war he perceives as necessary by firing the torpedo as say the Argentine carrier De Mayo, if a semi legal position for action, rel as five the exclusion zone, 12 mile limit can be fixed.

[@lovethyneighbour8287]

Thank you so much for sharing! I will look for the film.

[@samfisher2306]

Love Thyneighbour the best documentary I have ever seen (The Fog of War).

[@Exquisitewrk]

Listen, the fact of the matter is the man is so accomplished one can understand his complexity and how it came to be. People misunderstand McNamara because they thought he was arrogant etc etc. They didn’t understand the complexity and intelligence this man had to bare.

[@MarcusAurelius7777]

Hey thanks for posting this - our history

[@darkchocolate3390]

Never seen McNamara outside of the '60s before tbh.

[@flatoutt1]

it's almost like charlie is using the presence of mcnamara and errol morris not to hear what they have to say , but for charlie to tell everybody what he thinks . charlie really wants to interview himself .

[@billwilson5341]

Too many interviewers over-talk those they are interviewing. "really wants to interview himself" - Good way to phrase it.

[@wlgeiger]

Rose! I'm sure it's hard to listen but for goodness sake I'm watching because I want to listen!

[@Lt-Dan]

Unforgivable for what he done to young men in America

[@thebatt6183]

He was genuinely smart

[@asmodeus0454]

I wonder what Robert McNamara's take would have been on the Russo-Ukrainian war and the Israeli-Gazan war. I shall have to refer to Mr. McNamara's books and re-watch "The Fog of War" to deduce what his opinion would have been. He was a sincere man and a clever one.

[@MaxSafeheaD]

It's a shame they ran out of time. I would be very interested to hear more of what he had to say.

[@winwinogaming]

Yeah me too. He said he'd need 30 minutes to explain his feeling. I'd gladly listen to 30 minutes and longer. It's a shame he passed away before the rise of Internet content as now there's essentially no hard limit to what you put out beyond the attention span of your audience.

[@ReeseMac]

McNamara gave a lot to the documentary but , at the same time , he's definitely holding back a lot of other things. There's definitely a line he wouldn't cross. To him it clearly was a whole kettle of snakes that he did NOT want to open up. He's leaving it be and riding off into the sunset. Like at the end of the documentary , Errol Morris asked him "Isn't this feeling that you're damned if you do and (damned) if you don't...?" and McNamara cuts him off with the response "Yeah that's right....and I rather be damned if I don't.".

[@brianw.5230]

Yeah, I feel like McNamara didn't say much.

[@samfisher2306]

I read up on McNamara...very smart guy. I understand how The Vietnam War was blamed on him in some ways but he was frighteningly intelligent imo

[@jamesanthony5681]

Kennedy escalated American involvement during his term in office by placing 15,000 military in Vietnam, many of whom were in combat roles. McNamara was smart, yes, but did he challenge Kennedy by asking, 'what is your stated objective, and how are you going to achieve that, Mr. President'? McNamara read books, but the books he should have read were on Ho and the history of Vietnam. In the end, he lied to LBJ, he lied to congress, and he lied to the American public. A smart man would have resigned in 1963. There is honor in quitting, especially when American lives - young American boys - were at stake. I like brains AND guts.

[@lifehope4603]

@@jamesanthony5681 he couldn't resign because his tasks weren't completed.

[@jackccrofootjr7228]

McNamara's intelligence was far exceeded by his Total Arrogance.

[@brianw.5230]

@@jamesanthony5681 Kennedy would almost certainly have withdrawn from Vietnam had he lived. I blame LBJ. He was the President.

[@jamesanthony5681]

@@brianw.5230 How so? Kennedy sent 15,000 military to Vietnam, and it is much easier getting in than getting out, especially with the assassination of Diem in early Nov/63. They were stuck. Kennedy saw Vietnam in cold war terms, and the American right would not have stood by and allowed him to pull them out without a fight. The Kennedy brothers were as hawkish as Richard Nixon when it came to Communism. There's enough blame to go around for a number of people.

[@seamusblack5876]

39:32 surely that was the exact time to speak you coward you just didn't want to be expelled from your golf club

[@hellotheregeneralkenobi365]

I read his book when I was living in Vietnam and watched the documentary many times. In my opinion I think McNamara does clearly spell out what his feelings were regarding the war. Maybe not succinctly, but the lessons clearly apply both to Vietnam and the Iraq war at the time. That said, I wish Charlie or Errol would have pressed him a bit more about his rationale that saying things against the administration could risk American lives. There's a degree of truth to that, but the lives of Americans long-term should also be taken into account. I think the real reason is it wouldn't have amounted to anything except tarnishing McNamara's legacy, as the right would have attacked him for being out of government for decades and not having access to modern intelligence, and the left would have attacked him for being one of the key figures in the Vietnam war.

[@MrChuckwagon55]

A very smart, very fascinating man.

[@samfisher2306]

MrChuckwagon55 I agree

[@simac3880]

Yep, so smart and fascinating of him to calculate and support the murder of thousands of civilians.

[@paolom.6011]

@@simac3880 What do you expect a Secretary of Defense to do during a war? Collateral damage happens. Civilians die during wars.

[@jackccrofootjr7228]

@@paolom.6011 you did not have to live through the VN War that McNamara created and never repented. You did not lose close friends and relatives at the feet of this arrogant POS.

[@MapleSyrupPoet]

I saw this at movie 🎬 theater #fogofwar 🎥 very compelling documentary 👏 #riveting

[@empirestate8791]

He was such a smart guy! Too bad he had to be named secretary of defense. He would have done much better as head of peace corps or secretary of HUD.

[@whatitisnt2094]

What? He didn't have a choice in the matter? He didn't have to take the position.

[@TheIfifi]

@@whatitisnt2094 Well, the question is if the right position was offered to him.

[@raheelakhtar7]

He left a job paying $3 million a year as president of Ford to take the Sec Def job paying $25K in 1961. You get what you pay for!

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

"We killed 83,000 civilians in that one raid." Disgusting humble brag.

[@remasher]

Just read his autobiography, it's never been about nothing but numbers for Mr. McNamara.

[@Yo_Kelz]

A complete lack of ethics. smh

[@TheEleatic]

War has always been one thing: good business.

[@fabiengerard8142]

•••

[@jonflora1]

I hate to do it, but in Kennedy, Johnson, and McNamara's defense they were looking at Vietnam through the lens of the Korean War.

[@unclejj13er75]

Korea was definitely fresh in all thier minds, even as the confrontation with the USSR raged. What a luxury so many Einsteins have to judge, fifty years later, from behind the sanctity of their keyboards. They know nothing of history, the Cold War, much less of human nature.

[@daveshatton4613]

Kennedy saw it right, he decided to pull off even after the cia's planned coup with the south Vietnam... and that's why he got killed

[@famouswarrior327]

Robert's voice and even appearance looks like Stacy Keach's character from American History X

[@MaxSafeheaD]

"We have to provide security guarantees" Sage point. Probably overlooked?

[@Puzzle_Dust]

Robert is Sharper at 87 than I will be at 37.... tip of the hat 🎩

[@Yo_Kelz]

If your mistake cost the world over 3.4 million lives & ended the Gold Standard, you'd be just as sharp having spent an entire life trying to rationalize it to people.

[@larry1824]

Bob there's 60,000 names on that wall and I bet they really hate you

[@slick8919]

I read a book about this guy a long time ago

[@KeithWilliamMacHendry]

This Scot liked Robert McNamara, maybe because he was a Presbyterian like most Scots? 😜 Actually, I found him fantastic to listen to, a product of his time & he carried a fair bit of baggage because of his role as the US Defence Secretary during that awful Vietnam conflict, Massive intellect, should never have taken that position but then, we never ken what's in front of us. He certainly had to live with the pain of his decisions. He was an emotional man, so I reject that he never cared, however, he must have felt very lonely when he was alone with his thoughts.

[@brianw.5230]

I think McNamara was an atheist.

[@robertchflynn]

Nice life resume - wonder what his overall body death count is? His role in history is pretty much cemented I would say...

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

And no discussion of McNamara's use of mentally handicapped inductees who in some cases needed help (literally) tying their own bootlaces. They were mercilessly sent to slaughter by this man.

[@cravinbob]

@@dreamingrightnow1174 5478 killed in 'Nam

[@asianmaddness56]

Millions

[@morrisjones9537]

McNamara is a classy guy for ensuring the judgment of armchair critics like Errol.

[@fxdpntc]

Read McNamara’s Folly by Hamilton Gregory.

[@ZZFilm]

That article by Thomas Friedman definitely ended up being 100% on point. The rise of the Islamic State via the leftover Iraqi Ba’athists and disenfranchised Al-Qaeda in Iraq is completely what happened.

[@markbeaudry4636]

There was an element of greed and Corruption that was never discussed in regards to the war in Vietnam. Manifest Destiny, big stick policy, Open Door Doctrine euphemisms for robbery and murder.

[@Toothily]

So many people annoyed with Rose, but McNamara was a weasel about what he will & won’t answer. Man deserved to be pushed.

[@ethanwashoe5868]

No he just didn’t want to speak on an ongoing war, and they kept pressing him when he was clear he didn’t want to speak on it

[@johnburman966]

I prefer to associate with poor people, often there is less intellect to deal with - but also less hubris. The poor always pay for the slightest mistake. They don't have the luxury of debating the big questions. The grunts also have to submit. On the other hand the poor would probably be as foolish as the powerful given half a chance.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

Your arrogance and ignorance is breath taking.

[@ClaraHoskins]

Rose’s disdain of McNamara is clear.

[@Yo_Kelz]

it be different if McNamara was a woman.

[@privateer0561]

Charlie Rose cannot seem to stop interrupting his guests! Jesus, he was aggravating!

[@seamusblack5876]

49:00 man talk about how to snake out of not answering the question

[@johnblynther7735]

It’s like like trying to teach integers to a six year old…that’s what I would have thought at the end of this interview if I was Robert McNamara. But then again I’m a arrogant SOB and he’s respectful gentleman.

[@Etcher]

Children learn about integers at 2 years of age. You know, 1, 2 3 etc. Jesus wept.

[@kellyharper8072]

Read Body of Secrets by James Bamford.

[@tjschakow]

Should have sent bernard Fall to meet with Ho CHi Minh

[@DW-hs7bc]

We did try to understand North Vietnam and Vietnam (Ho Chi Minh) already understand us and embraced the United States. i.e : when Ho Chi Minh read a speech of independence to his people after the Japanese surrendered in 1945, what was included in Ho's independence speech? There were liturgy of the United States Constitution that were included, perhaps even word for word phraseology. Can we (USA) not even make a good assumption from the facts and context of history that Ho Chi Minh embraced the US constitution, to even make that a central message of a liberation of his own people? Ho Chi Minh had a respect, mindful of a mutual future relationship with the USA. Unfortunately France (France Govt betrayed Ho Chi Minh meetings) and the British also betrayed Ho Chi Minh by starting yet another war (1st Indochina war). We could have dealt with a Ho Chi Minh even if his country turned to communism knowing he had some capacity to empathize with the USA which promoted the US Constitution. Here is one example where yet even parts of the US constitution is exemplified as a possible universal example. Its one Historic example that seems to fall through the cracks of notable events that had an impact on Freedom and independence. I must include that the times of post WW2 were very unpredictable and worrisome.

[@robertsullivan4773]

Charlie Rose needs to shut up and let McNamara talk and not interrupt.

[@johnnydeano2288]

Bring back Charlie. He’s done his time. He could just interview himself all night.

[@Scorch428]

Ol' handsey had to go!

[@spewter]

We’ll let him come back if you let him molest you. Deal? 😂

[@Yo_Kelz]

Give him a LATE late night show lol

[@platinumjeweler]

Both Morris and Rose wanted McNamara to speak out about the Iraq War. They couldn't grasp a man of ethics, knowing any negativity during a conflict could embolden the enemy, but they didn't care with their continuus prodding.

[@user-sj6hc1bk4e]

It's ironic you say Man of ethics considering his role in previous wars. It's amazing people that want him to speak out that wouldn't speak out at their own jobs if someone was stealing people lunches out the break room refrigerator hahaha!!!! Everyone is speaking on what they would do.... Yet they aren't doing things like that now on an infinitely lower level.

[@raymondvandewalle934]

Robert McNamara is a tool and always has been. His place on history is dark. He also admits that he does not answer direct questions. Why? As he says " I like to give an answer that I think is good for the entire well being of things and perception positive..." Thus, he is a pawn. A VERY intelligent pawn. He never answers ONE question. He simply gives a story in another opposite direction, and hence, is not truthful to matters that involved mass murder, war, and policy decisions. He is a product of the times. He is also masterful. But, his intelligence belittles him as time goes on. Very disappointed that he can't admit to "failure " and re-defines the word empathy. Well at least he tried...there is a lesson and I do appreciate this segment. However, it's sad to watch...his metaphors are so corporate and twisted. Just like our Federal " government"...may we find a way to break away from this tyranny on all citizens living on Earth today and our future citizens in this cyber world. Peacefully...

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

Is he a pawn, or devious dark knight?

[@James_Bowie]

The McNamara Fallacy is aptly named.

[@jackd95]

12:30 He should have just gone ahead and said it.

[@user-yv9tq7qv9l]

War criminal

[@Yo_Kelz]

"War criminal" is an understatement. Beyond the war, dude broke the global monetary system, worked with the World Bank to further prey on developing countries, then committed the rest of his life to coming up with excuses. Dude legit ruined the world,

[@mikecummings6593]

We've been the bad guys for so long we don't know if we're good or bad anymore

[@ElTuco84]

I want to know what is the secret to still have a sharp brain at 87.

[@Yo_Kelz]

Start a war that causes over 3.4 million deaths, about 10 million refugees, and break the global monetary system, and you too will be just as sharp having to explain your mistake to people.

[@addtru12]

Communicate with your opponent! In 2024, that is probably at the lowest possible .

[@antwortmir4451]

McNamara has a screw loose (then and later), everyone (who’s not totally gone) can see that! What was he afraid of? That his grandchildren find out that he was a monster? ..

[@frankh.5378]

You do not understand. That what you think he is crazy.

[@dcotai2902]

.... when they make a desert... they call it peace...

[@donny_doyle]

At least they're "going there" Its a start...

[@TheShanewalsh]

i always thought that charlie Rose was a wimp. This interview proves me wrong- Gracias

[@fxdpntc]

Someone that actually knew him, said that McNamara’s genius was convincing others that he was a genius. Judging by some of the comments, it looks like he still had that ability. Now, of course, he’s burning in hell.

[@fxdpntc]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXuVh6p8ebtnY8ksi=X0aKrXfKyTjBcQdm

[@billhaywood3503]

horrifying man

[@Scorch428]

One of these days we'll figure out why we went to war in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.....

[@robertfarrell6479]

We know all those answers, my friend.

[@Scorch428]

@@robertfarrell6479 I remember something about a camel with a nuclear weapon strapped to its back, but thats about it.

[@Yo_Kelz]

Manifest Destiny?

[@Etcher]

so smart, so fascinating, so old ... blah blah blah - the death and destruction this man and the administration he was attached to was responsible for is unforgivable.

[@yuvegotmale]

He should have been brought up on war crime charges..............

[@calengr1]

49:30- 50:45 RM admit he was wrong - S Schanberg

[@slick8919]

What person is at peace with themselves

[@jerseywalcott6408]

Good interview and conversation. Flawed it may be but very interesting. I view many of these kinds of programs on KZbin and it will ever amaze me how a large MINORITY of my fellow citizens could consciously vote for a stupid, selfish businessman with no ethical properties or any good ideas. Most likely this was a decision point versus voting for another flawed person. I hope this was a tough decision to make but history will judge us years from now. God help us to keep this great experiment alive.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

But if we're going to have flawed people, can't they at least be intelligent? Nothing justifies trump.

[@kennethhawkins6023]

Many things have been said about Presidents, good bad and the ugly. But one President stands alone in uniqueness. JB is struggling with dementia and that sets him apart for history and for the ignorance of this condition by You, the voter

[@jerseywalcott6408]

@@kennethhawkins6023 Good point Kenneth. We need a young, dynamic leader, regardless of party to help our nation climb out of our hole. A little progressive but law and order also. If we keep dragging down good people who may have texted or said something very small but intolerable by some, we will get what we deserve.

[@projectw.a.a.p.f.t.a.d7762]

How's your logic working out for you🤣

[@jerseywalcott6408]

So true my friend. Just plain ignorant, insulting and greedy. Only redeeming quality for his followers is that he is white.

[@scottedwards2322]

If I was MacNamara I would have told Rose to pound sand. You don't ask a question if you can't let the person answer that question. Terrible interview. Interrupting and talking over him. MacNamara is now gone. Rose had a chance to get some answers that could have been analyzed for decades and centuries to come to help make sense of decisions made in that era. He took that opportunity and squandered it by not controlling his own emotional reactions on his own beliefs.

[@tatumdilley]

100% agree

[@RichardKoenigsberg]

Giving a mass-murderer a voice.

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

All you preople saying Tonkin didn't happen look up interview with crew on board Maddox that being said we were helping the south do operation s in the north so the attacks were not unprovoked

[@michaelgrey7854]

The 2nd attack did not happen.

[@tiger19771000]

perfect example of the elitism that cost us 55,000 lives in Vietnam.

[@AnthonyLopez-di5vv]

goddammit charlie rose let your guests speak

[@TravisSwan]

Guys, please remind me not to invite such people to be the MC or a Chair for a forum or debate.

[@TheGlendrum]

Wow -no wonder Vietnam went so wrong. Listening to this stubborn 85 year old man at the time this interview finger pointing style -still deflecting blame and as an A level talker trying to redeem himself with Errol Morris adding insult to injury with his own credit grabbing appearance. Focusing on Cold War memories and Cuban missile crisis. Picking and choosing battles that portray him in a more favorable light. This interview was about his last ditch attempt to shift his tarnished legacy.He wouldn't discuss Johnson ,Kennedy , Rumsfeld, Vietnam. Out of his mind.

[@shadowshow701]

Could have done without the jackals yapping every two minutes. The man is 87 yo for heaven's sake. I want to hear what he has to say. Charlie Rose was a disgrace to journalistic profession.

[@Yo_Kelz]

Read his book lol

[@saltynutsman1]

He wants a catharsis but refuses to say anything.

[@matthiasmajoris4029]

no comments?!?!

[@stitch01264]

Nope! You want comments, go to a kardashian URL. This was a great interview... really enjoyed Fog of War. I wish more people watched both the interview and the documentary.

[@sampelletier5083]

1. Charlie Rose needs to let his guests speak. 2. Yes, proportionality should be a guideline in war, but this assume the actors are rational. If you believe that you are entitled to the world due to some bronze-age holy book, there is no reasoning with you. There is no proportionality.

[@Scorch428]

he is great in this show, Between Two Ferns

[@weta6782]

McNamara took 70yrs to become a hippy.Its a huge leap of faith to believe we won't have a nuclear holocaust! lol

[@clarenceboddicker1162]

“I don’t think it would be constructive for me to comment on the foreign policy of the current administration”

[@jeffdalrymple1634]

Nixon was the same way as McNamara in his post presidency, Nixon felt it was not appropriate for a former head of state to criticize a sitting statesman. It's quite professional.

[@tjschakow]

The soft message came from kruschev the hard message from the Politburo.

[@TheKdizzle1971]

Errol looks like he wants to murk someone

[@LeroyJenkins-zm8tp]

The interview is interesting but I think Rose and Morris are overly dismissive of McNamara. He is clearly still the smartest man on the room, but Rose and Morris seem to want to see an old man atone for his sins.

[@leewilliams6673]

Rose looks like some an Assistant DA with his hounding look and interruptions. Don't like the dude

[@kirkbowyer2758]

McNamara should've never left the Ford Corporation.

[@kirkbowyer2758]

God bless Robert Strange McNamara.

[@Ian-iu2tl]

We will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy; we must be careful.

[@thecarpetman7687]

Jesus that rose fella is a dreadful interviewer

[@juanm620]

0 times 2 is still 0

[@DirtyAstronaut]

The interviewer obviously has a massive disdain for McNamara. Ruined the interview with his badgering.

[@saltynutsman1]

That’s because he’s not saying anything. It was frustrating.

[@thecarpetman7687]

@@saltynutsman1 then just let him say nothing which would show McNamara to be evasive…interrupting all the time makes it easy for him to give less detailed responses as he’s constantly answer these stupid interruptions

[@saltynutsman1]

@@thecarpetman7687 oh, I agree. I think people say much more when they ramble on. Although these type of people won’t ever give me what I want. Must be hard to write history.

[@ruthkavita7502]

He can't Let the guest speak... Really

[@Jin-Ro]

One can only hope that if there is a heaven and hell, that McNamara is in hell this very minute. I don't see how a God could send him anywhere else.

[@Gracebeliever077]

11:37 ...shut up Charlie... just shut up. 14:48 You can hear the tires screeching to an abrupt halt when Mr. McNamara made THAT statement. And Charlie trying to scramble to draw a comparison... and failed. 36:09 That's a slow pitch question with an easy answer.. just read Romans 1 : 16-32 .

[@jamesbeckham7046]

Johnson war

[@RichardKoenigsberg]

What about debate during Vietnam? Useless, the entire book. He just wants to repeat the past.

[@Michael-pf8we]

Why would they talk about Irag?

[@nectarinedreams7208]

@@Michael-pf8we What are you, dense?

[@Yo_Kelz]

He really has learned nothing.