The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam

Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara offers a mea culpa in 1995 for the United States' actions in the Vietnam War. [2/2000] [Show ID: 1521]
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[@mustbtrouble]

This lecture is from 1999 but clearly nothing was learned as illegal occupations of Iraq & Afghanistan now look nearly identical & have lasted even longer than Vietnam. Sad

[@jegl1012]

And ended the same way

[@PastorOfMuppets74]

I agree with your sentiment in essence, especially in regard to Iraq, but calling it "illegal" is just an ideological declaration. Who was arrested or prosecuted? Nobody. And in the wake of 9/11, someone was going to pay. 3000 dead Americans will get a swift response every time. Afghanistan illegally held terrorist training camps, a rogue government in the form of the Taliban, and even hosted Bin Laden himself. The strikes and efforts to find this man were totally justified in my eyes. Now, the recent pull out has been a complete and utter disaster. Biden himself warned of his own doing just several years ago, which is on tape. He will go down in history as one of the worst lame duck presidents of all time. The whole situation in Afghanistan should have been handled completely differently. I agree with you 100% on the ethical viewpoint of the Iraq invasion. Both, actually, as Hussein was essentially given the green light to invade Kuwait by H W Bush, only to be double-crossed and attacked in the first Gulf War. That's a point most Americans don't know or accept to this day. Hussein had informed Bush of his plans and was told that was a Middle East issue and we wouldn't interfere. Even the US ambassador to Iraq was telling Hussein we were on the sidelines up to the day before the Kuwait invasion. The second war was a continuation of that, as many in the Pentagon felt we pulled out too early by leaving Hussein in power.

[@mustbtrouble]

@@PastorOfMuppets74 illegal may not be the percise verbiage. i meant in the sense that the 2 occupations were done almost unilaterally and broke the geneva convention definition of "war of aggression". in that sense the US could and often should be considered the threat probably sanctioned but ofc this wont happen. iraq specifically lacked any justification. a career liar, gen. colin powell misrepresented the threat in his UN presentation. 30yrs prior he was promoted for covering up the melai massacre in vietnam, later directly involved in the iran contra coverup. yet this man was still around in 2001 once again sell us out. this is just an example of what i meant when i said nothing was learned. literally the same guy. as you remember the vietnam pullout was earily similar to afghanistan. im inclined to believe the exit is never as clean as youd like. The important thing is it happened after 20yrs. Biden did a good thing, and he stuck by his deciscion with all the smoke afterward. Im not really happy with biden generally but that was a important achievement 2 predecessors lacked the conviction for. i hope we are never sending americans to occupy another country.

[@grahamhaupt1514]

The fact is there were many many occasions when to withdraw from Vietnam was possible However McNamara, with Westmoreland refused to lose faith He was a mendacious man who took for granted the night of the USA He needs to be condemned to history as a war criminal who had complete disregard for the Vietnamese people His constant remarks to nuclear war re the appendix is a diversion from how he with others had the power to stop a war that had nothing to do with the USA Shame on McNamara

[@rogeliogonzalez5293]

"I'll tell you something. It's not a legal question. We should never think of it as a legal question. It's a political question. This nation should never be taken to war by a president without the authority of the people.". - Robert McNamara

[@danielhutchinson6604]

Seems to be an economic question? The effects of making war, always seem to have some opportunistic banker or investors who enjoy War Profiteering....

[@TruthDissident]

​@@danielhutchinson6604Well that's a larger problem of what actually fuels the West. Capitalism.

[@DerGlaetze]

I was lucky, turning 18 , just after Nixon got rid of the draft. I have a habit of checking out where products are made. Lately, my shoes, furniture and several other things are now made in Vietnam. How bloody ironic.

[@danielhutchinson6604]

Just commercial.....they cost less, but contribute nothing to our stability....

[@robertlytle9387]

One of my first Marine Corps hats was made in Vietnam. I thought it was ironic USMC 1969-1971

[@havu-oj4qh]

Vietnamese people have never considered all Americans as enemies, only those who brutally kill civilians. Even during the war, we still treated Americans friendly who came to Vietnam with good intentions. Propaganda of the US governments described Vietnamese people as monsters. Crime started here.

[@zuzemoyo7696]

"A nation's strength lies not in its military strength but the unity of its people". Awesome truth.

[@Retroscoop]

In that case, there aren't many strong countries. In most, that unity is non existing, or purely forced upon groups of people who hate each others guts.

[@GKo2024]

stupid statement. We know how unified Hitler Germany was. Nations are constructs across highly diverse populations, talking about unity of people is just plain nonsense, under any conditions.

[@Retroscoop]

​@@GKo2024 There's a slight difference between a forced unity and a spontanious unity. And centrifugal forces are often counterbalanced by centripetal forces, because there's only real unity, whenever everyone is treated more or less in the same way. And even if that rare thing is a fact, still there will be people who prefer a smaller, more manageable entity, which offers more direct impact on one's own destiny. Very often the richest parts of a country want out.

[@mustbtrouble]

@@GKo2024 yeah bruh cuz guess what they did with the people who werent feeling the nazis....

[@Yo_Kelz]

...how Vietnam beat the largest, wealthiest, most "advanced" military the world had ever seen.

[@tommonk7651]

It is very difficult here in the 21st century to put ourselves in the shoes of those who were trying to deal with the Cold War. I'm glad McNamara finally opened up as he neared the end of his life and gave his honest views of the Vietnam War. He and those he worked with were obviously flawed human beings working under immense pressure and fear. I do not intend to absolve them of their faults, perhaps even crimes. But it is hard to look back objectively. I do think the hawks in our government and military had and still have today too much influence.

[@collinsje5]

Many of us are old enough to look backward on those years objectively, and I can never forgive LBJ and McNamara for the Vietnam War - started under false pretenses. 58,000 young Americans and countless Asians died in that unnecessary conflict, and yet in 2003 we invaded Iraq - proving that we learned nothing.

[@mymonster156]

Tom Monk ....and now Iran! Shameful on the US Politicians for not remembering history and the words of wise men!

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

What do any of us know?

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

@ElPocho DelMundo I don't know. I hated McNamara until I gave this a chance and listened to it. I think he answered the question in a similar way he answered to question put to him at the congressional hearing. He's not a constitutional lawyer. Who can answer a question on morality? Me? You? Are we qualified to do so? I understand your points, particularly the one about the price of admission. (I can't believe I'm defending McNamara.) I think you might be demanding too much from a human being asking for that. I, for one, am satisfied that he did want to let us know that he felt the choices that were made and his in particular were wrong.

[@robertchflynn]

No there were many who were against this war at the time. It's just unfortunate that people who rise to the political top are already power hungry and bought and sold. McNamara was basically trying to get through his guilt as he neared the end of his life. Much too much damage to be granted that..

[@ianmuir3640]

Americas treatment of the Vietnam Vets was nothing short of shocking,yes there was wrong doing in Vietnam,but not by every soldier

[@maureendrozda9033]

I Have No Doubt That The American Public's Viscious Rejection Of Vietnam Veterans Upon Returning Home Added To & Even EXTENDED The Problems With Any Post Traumatic Stress They Would Already Have To Deal With After Their War & Combat Experiences...This Was A Great Disservice To These Men & Women Who Served Their Country & Were Willing To Die In That Service! I Wish That Could Be Undone - But Like The War Itself - It Is Done! But When I See - Or Speak With A Veteran Who Served In Vietnam - Or Who Served In Korea - I Tell Them THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE - AND FINALLY, & SINCERELY, WELCOME HOME!🇺🇸

[@robertchflynn]

Most Vietnam vets bought into the kool aid of what the American govt were spewing which resulted in the deaths of millions of Vietnamese in a impoverished country on the other side of the world. Being pro America rule the world mentality does have its drawbacks...

[@leeweisbecker6048]

here is a man working out his own guilt

[@collinsje5]

Precisely. If there is a Hell, I hope he is burning in it.

[@louisvarre2197]

Jerald Collins While I concur he was just as responsible as anyone else politically of the day in regards to the conflict in Vietnam Nam, I do not believe he acted without cause or insight. He was charged with protecting our nation and our allies. Everyone was afraid of the communist threat during that period in history. While his actions and assertions of the situation may have been erred, I do not believe he acted negligently, carelessly or indiscriminately. There’s not a single politician of the error that did not fear the growing problem and concern of Communism. There’s not a single private citizen that didn’t fear the threat growing communism either during that period. It’s easy for you to sit back and say he should burn in hell, however I doubt you’ve ever had the weight of the country resting on your shoulders. What’s your day to day stress like? I bet it pales in comparison to the MEN of that period. You have the luxury of knowing the outcome of era. Now, for certain, there were, and still are some very disgusting politicians from that era. I don’t think most people would argued the LBJ was a bastard, probably contributing to JFK’s assassination to further his own career. Nixon similarly was a dirt bag. While JFK & Mac wanted de-escalation of nuclear proliferation, open talks with Kruschev, and reduce the amounts of GI’s in Southeast Asia, LBJ did the exact opposite, escalating the war in Vietnam, increasing hostilities between SE Asia and the Soviets, contributing to nuclear proliferation, further destabilizing the region, worsening relations between The US and the Communists, and contributing to worsening relationships globally. So yea, it’s easy to sit at your keyboard playing ‘internet heroics’ without actually having a clue to the dynamics of the day.

[@jegl1012]

Not sure. Vietnam was a calamity caused by bad decisions and miscalculations from 5 different presidential administrations. McNamara was a key figure and while he made mistakes he did try in more than one occasion to get LBJ to negotiate/withdraw but LBJ/Nixon kept believing in military victory. Unfortunately McNamara was extremely loyal to both JFK and LBJ and never expressed his doubts publicly until much later. This is well documented in his book, The Best and the Brightest, and in the Pentagon Papers. More than any other member of the JFK and LBJ administrations I give the man credit for admitting his mistakes (not easy to do) and speaking about the war while doing university tours so that future generations can learn from Vietnam and hopefully avoid past mistakes. Sadly it doesn't seem like the US government actually learned those lessons.

[@drgeorgek]

Just short of saying sorry... which would be the honourable thing to do

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@jegl1012 He is the one who did the Survey which determined that the War was going to fail. He definitely got progressively Anti-Vietnam War.

[@gryphus64]

The historian Tacitus said of the Romans that 'they make a desert and call it peace.'" He turned to Jia. "The Carthaginians never forgot.

[@rogeliogonzalez5293]

"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? We are the strongest nation in the world today. I do not believe that we should ever apply that economic, political, and military power unilaterally. If we had followed that rule in Vietnam, we wouldn't have been there. None of our allies supported us. Not Japan, not Germany, not Britain or France. If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning". - Robert S. McNamara

[@fruff30]

"If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning". - Robert S. McNamara Show less To bad he didn't manage to figure this out until it was to late.

[@minnowpd]

@@fruff30 His book is a pACK OF LIES.. nAM-VETS CAUGHT UP TO HIM ON THE FERRY AND SLAPPED THE SHIT OUT OF HIM. DEFENSE FAILED.

[@bobbinsthethird]

South Korea is a conspicuous exemption from this list. They sent 312,000 soldiers to Vietnam. They got to witness first hand how a communist overrunning a democratic south as a result of the south losing financial and military support from the United States

[@mirazusta2002]

29:29 "My life has been devoted to identifying problems, developing solutions to them.", ... Robert McNamara's statement, when related to his involvement in the Vietnam War, could have been humorous, had the topic discussed not been so serious and tragic. It also sheds light to better understand the disaster of the Vietnam War. It is difficult to understand why people are appointed to high office without proper and relevant qualifications, and I don't mean here the presidency of FORD, NASA, or other. It is not fair for the ordinary citizen, and a disgrace for any government. People represented by democratically elected governments deserve better, actually, they deserve the very best in each field at any time, this is a Constitutional right. I don't think many folks buy the claim there was no a single suitable candidate for the job better than Mr. McNamara when he was appointed to the post.

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

Wow, I uninformedly hated McNamara and wasn't even going to watch this when I figured out in the first minute who the speaker was. But I gave it a chance and I'm lucky to have done so.

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

@@robertchflynn Missed the point, Bobby. But that's okay.

[@robertchflynn]

@@rudolphguarnacci197 ya what was it?

[@sranney1]

He's Human not a evil guy

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

​@@robertchflynn I can't tell you what your point was, Bobby, since you deleted it. Brilliant.

[@Yo_Kelz]

@@sranney1 Nah dude... he was super evil.

[@jamesritchie1594]

How did our involvement in Vietnam make us any safer? The Domino's still fell. The Vietnam War was a tragic waste of our National Treasure.

[@havu-oj4qh]

Nó bắt nguồn từ sự ngạo mạn ngu ngốc về sức mạnh quân sự của Mỹ

[@kumar2ji]

Power corrupts, unmitigated power corrupts absolutely.

[@pbrucpaul]

Also because the Draft at the time was having a hard time getting bodies to go to Vietnam, Mac started drafting guys with IQ's of 70 or so to fill the quota. Like let's let the Military try and teach them something; we're doing those guys a favor. Forgive maybe, but don't forget.

[@stijnvandamme76]

yeah and he completely ignored all that in his book or other times.. No explanation or rationalization, nothing. mum's the word.

[@Tupelo927]

Some of those poor fellas had never learned (or couldn't remember) left from right; many needed daily assistance lacing & tying their combat boots. The Brass referred to them as "McNamara's Morons." Their survival rate was *twice* as low as other soldiers. It's heartbreaking as well as criminal.

[@mustbtrouble]

macnamara was full of shit and he knew it Truth imo is that the US chose the wrong side. it was a nationalist antimperialist war by the north. we had our own in 1770s.

[@RevolutionRepublic1907]

I will never forgive that man. He chose to the communist theory "we are all equals but some are more equal than others", moto. He chose go send young American MEN Into Death in place of sending men of standards. this is how we got big draft dodgers who would either go to college (middle class, rich families can afford it). He pushed his agenda so heavy that when Americans realize that the war was not Worth continuing, he singlehandedly chose to disregard American opinion and continue to send low IQ, too fat, too skinny, too stupid, ones who can't read, some can't tie their shoes, vision impaired,pick certain ethnic men over others, and ones who cant afford an excuse, or anything that would normally disqualify these young men. he jeopardized American equipment personal finances, our taxes, or deficit to give wealth onto companies as armaments, supplies, steel, wood, major companies. MGen Smedley Butley warned us since the 1930s and American Govt didn't listen. and continued not to. And we continue to send these corrupticrats into government expecting something different. Doing the same things and expecting different result.

[@SandfordSmythe]

This is something I would research myself.

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

You don't put a president of a car company as your secretary of defense. That one is on JFK

[@robertfitzgerald3118]

Good point.

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

@@robertfitzgerald3118 did you see FOG OF WAR ?

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

@@robertfitzgerald3118 oh one more thing Robert. You want to see a really good movie about the behind the scenes look on the Vietnam war the decision making ? It's free here on KZbin and it's pretty damn accurate I was really surprised at how accurate it really was. They were able to make it really accurate because LBJ recorded all the conversations at that time . It's called PATHWAY or PATH TO WAR it has a awesome scene of LBJ getting Wallace to do EXACTLY what he wants him to do. The only thing that was inaccurate was LBJ having a meeting with the bathroom door open while taking a piss in real life he was taking a shit lol. I'll brb and give you the name of it ok

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

@@robertfitzgerald3118 its called THE PATH TO WAR. type in THE PATH TO WAR LBJ in the search and it will come up. LBJ was in a bad situation he had some really difficult decisions to make

[@mirazusta2002]

Your point is spot on, there is no better explanation for the exploits and messes discussed here.. As for the JFK decision to appoint McNamara as Secretary of Deffence in the first place, and the exact words he used to convince him to take said post, well, much that I love and admire the late US President for what he stood up for on many issues, his luck of vision and error of judgement when hiring Robert McNamara for such an important post was a very big dissapointment, something you wouldn't expect from the man holding the highest office on Earth. Thank you very much for your clarity of mind when summarizing with a single statement what was all this about. Stay well.

[@davedee4382]

Catch that? “I suggested to the Council on Foreign Relations….”

[@rfn944]

Apparently Cheney, Bush, and all their fellow psychopathic friends didn't view this video.

[@jacobfaulkner697]

nailed it!

[@jacobfaulkner697]

All of our leaders, democrats or republicans are all Psychos!!!

[@collinsje5]

We learned NOTHING from Vietnam, and that is a scandalous failure of leadership.

[@matthewemery4205]

OFF COURSE BUSH WAS A DRAFT DODGER

[@unggrabb]

And dont forget Wulfowitch, imagine if hus mother had swallowed instead.... no iraq massacre

[@lucigalaxi3652]

What’s going on?

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

Another mistake was not listening to the French. And especially not taking Australis strategy to fight a insurgency in which they are masters at

[@frankmartin8471]

The French initiated the post WWII military conflict in Vietnam.

[@havu-oj4qh]

The Vietnamese have defeated the Mongols three times in 11 century . If America, with its bombs and weapon , cannot subdue the Vietnamese, then NO ONE can subdue them.

[@patflynn1783]

Can’t help but react to McNamara’s posing like a Ghandi character- good that he’s claiming some responsibility ( much more his largesse in candor), but much too little, too late- Also, he gives Kennedy short shrift and damn him for that. It was President Kennedy that singlehandedly (save for his brother) held off the Joint Chiefs of Staff, The Pentagon and the whole Military from launching war against Cuba and Russia. Kennedy deserves a Posthumous Nobel Peace Prize for saving the world from Nuclear War. How dare McNamara simply say he was a “Practical politician…”? Makes me angry……this whole speech was a nauseous self promotion and exercise in ego fired revisionism-

[@jamesmacaw3865]

He never atoned for Project 100,000

[@camielstoop4430]

The most arrogant of the world……

[@tonycolca2241]

I spent 19 months in vietnam one day while cleaning out the m42 a1 that I was in charge of a staff Sargeant came by and said if you have any pot or beer around get rid of it we have some vips in the area. The place was tan tru in the mekong delta area of viet nam a little while later I noticed a small convoy of jeeps and trucks coming into the camp next thing I know mc namara and Charlton Heston are standing next to me in front of me was a crowd of high ranking officers looking directly at me mc namara spoke first said he was on a hand shaking tour of soldiers in the field. I shook hands with him and Mr. Heston. Ivwas a 21 year old sergeant e5. Mc namara asked me what area we got hit from I pointed south he asked where the viet cong were I told him sir they are all around us. He and Mr. Heston walked scout 30 feet away and said I don't think he knows who we are. Personally I didn't care who they were. A couple of the officers shook my hand then theyvall left. This speech he is making is the typical BS of the day. I am not the only person he talked to in vietnam when he went back to Washington he tried to resign Johnson instead put him in charge of the world bank. Remember he allowed the drafting of very low iq people because he felt they and their family's didn't do any protesting simply because they weren't intelligent enough to understand whatcawar was. He had to know how the south vietnamese soldiers did not get paid and the money we were giving south vietnamese was going into Swiss Bank accounts. This guy is lieing through his teeth. Crooked as a snake.

[@cybersaiko451]

As usual, no lessons were learned...just look at the outcome of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[@shea086]

This has to be one of the most important and astounding talks I have ever witnessed on KZbin or anywhere for that matter. I don't think that's an over statement, especially when you take into consideration the number of human lives that have been lost in war in the last 100 years or more. It's just a pity a speech or talk like this was not made way back before world wars 1 and 2.Yet it is still better late than never. The people and leaders of the world have to start somewhere. I'll try and keep this short. For the sake of the peoples of the world, leaders of all countries have to get it through their numb skulls that any use of nuclear weapons is a no go area and will be forbidden. How can we do this. That is the question that should be asked. It should never stop being asked, until the answer is found. This talk we have just listened to, is as good a place as any to start.

Compared to Iran and Afghanistan, Vietnam was an understandable mistake.

[@davekiernan1]

The cia said there was no nuclear weapons in cuba? That says it all...

[@Retroscoop]

a) their sources of information over there were poor b) actually they knew those A weapons were there, but they still wanted to invated, being slightly stubborn or short sighted c) they discovered the Russians were suggesting there were A weapons there, but in reality those were phonies...

[@alexgunawan98]

Lesson : Vietnam : go to war with myth is wrong. Saddam : where were you when I need you ?

[@jamesbeckham7046]

A great man!

[@kojack1129]

Guilty as sin

At least Mc Namara is trying BUSH Jr. Is TOO stupid to do that.

[@lurking0death]

So much responsibility was given to this fuzzy-headed dope. See here how much trouble this guy has coming to the GD point. He continually gets lost in the superfluous.

[@Tony-Rizzo212]

Who in their right mind would his book !!!

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

Didn't the French threaten to go to the Russian side if we backed HO up

[@Yo_Kelz]

There was no mention of that in the "Pentagon Papers". In hindsight, the US felt Ho could've been an "Asian Tito" and admitted Ho wasn't entirely a Communist.

[@louisvarre2197]

I truly enjoy listening to Mr Macnamara now, however I do not believe he would have been so engaging in the ‘60’s. He was so disillusioned, as was most politicians of his day. At the time, ‘they’ truly believed that containing the Soviets, at all costs, in every part of the world, was the most appropriate foreign and military power of the day. If we fast forward to now, our primary and strategic and militarily enemy is Russia. Same enemy, different face. As any fan of Battlestar Galactica is familiar, “What has happened before will happen again.” It’s too bad our politicians fail to heed this concept. We fail at this time and time again. We supported Hussein and Iraq, only to fight them years later. We armed the Mujahadeen and Bin Laden against the Soviets, only to face them later as terrorists and Alqaeda, utilizing guerilla tactics we taught them. And earlier US involvement in the Iranian coup of 1953, which we fought to reduce Soviet influences only now to witness Russian influences in the region as we speak. And etc, etc, etc! Non-engagement is not a helpful and or stabilizing foreign policy for the US, however, I do think a little more thought I do think a little more forethought and forecasting would be helpful when US politicians consider intervening in foreign countries. I think the issue is that when we intervene across the globe, The only interest we have in mind our own, and not in the best interest of those countries 10 years down the road, 50 years down the road, etc, etc. Our political strategies are myoptic and selfish, falling short of long term projections That may or may not have destabilizing effects. We can no longer adopt policy of containment based on political ideology, because everytime we find ourselves failing, falling short and actually leaving these countries worse off than when originally found them. Our politicians forgotten the idea that we should leave these countries better than we found them. Our lack of nation building and infrastructure support results in destabilizing economies, angry citizens, confused people and breeding grounds for nationalism and terrorism. When will we learn?

[@robertchflynn]

It was a pissing contest with men of power fucking their skewed perspective of the world up. McNamara is no different than those men that were before him and who have followed since. To be someone who wants all this power is someone not to be trusted.

[@danielhutchinson6604]

If you examine the obvious purpose of every action the US has taken since Stalin sat down with Truman, and split up Korea and Nam, you may notice a trend to controlling world trade prices..... Iraq was obviously a way of disrupting a nation and sending the soldiers that at one time fed their families with military paychecks. we could have put them to work rebuilding Iraq but we never invested the money or thought into helping Iraq. Nam was the same category of irritation to our effort to show who was boss. The first Duke of Baghdad came from the offices of Hank Kissinger. Yes the same Kissinger who assembled Prospect for America. The reference material used to get us involved in providing a safe location for the Rockefeller's Chase Branch in Saigon..... The work of assembling the Generals who helped write the essay of our possibilities, were funded by the Rockefeller Bros..... The same guys who were looking at mineral deposits in the Central Highlands to supply their Anaconda holdings. If you assume that the Vietnamese people did not love the idea of becoming another Colony of the US, as were Iran, South Korea, and Japan, you may be correct......

[@mirazusta2002]

The points you make are very interesting.

[@annapurna2389]

@@danielhutchinson6604 and lithium + opium in Afghanistan...

[@danielhutchinson6604]

@@annapurna2389 Profits at any cost.....

[@bobhsohi704]

Not only him and LBJ but keeping Gen Westmorland far too long !

[@jrnumex9286]

in one segment mac said it was a civil war and we had no biz there. ok. when/if china invades taiwan will that be a civil war also and we have no biz there and all the fight for democracy stuff on hold? on nam, millions tons of bombs dropped except on hanoi? what the h was that strategy? just what NV wanted us to do.

[@patfraizer4469]

You called it a conflict, we who were in the country called it G..damn war

[@sranney1]

We have failed in all of our waring of late

[@stijnvandamme76]

The one thing McNamara didn't explain in his book, is Mcnamara's morons.. eg how the draft was expanded to include people who were previously deemed ineligible for the draft due to lack of IQ or other reason. aka Forrest Gump.. There are loads of examples of people who weren't even capable of getting through bootcamp but somehow got inducted, and sent to Vietnam just the same. And despite all the rationalizations and mea culpas in his book about his own mistakes or misjudgments, i did not address this particular policy with his name on it.

[@havu-oj4qh]

Nếu IQ cao mà chiến thắng thì sao ông ta không nghĩ đến việc do IQ của người Vietnam chống Mỹ và rút quân về nhỉ?

[@ricsta7660]

USA born (of Poland) in 1967. Yet, I need to say Sorry, very sorry!!! As Shinzo Abe visited Pearl Harbor 2016.12.27 & also acknowledged...

[@centralguy1229]

A13

[@johntexas8417]

"War is a racket" Smedley Darlington Butler Dont know who that is? GOGGLE IT

[@jeromegrzelak8236]

APPARENTLY SOOOOOOOO

[@choppergirl]

You say McNamara is to blame, I say statism. It's your own obsessivly insane absolute unwavering belielf that you need government, no matter how corrupt or how much you despise it or far it falls abhorentely outside your expectations of it. I say, you need no government at all. Be your own leader. You don't need government or rules... to be free. I would argue both are a direct enemy to your freedom.

[@mustbtrouble]

found the libertarian. dont reply to it just carry on , dont engage all will be ok.

[@choppergirl]

@@mustbtrouble Anarchist, not libertarian. Libertarian thinks the least amount of rule by a Gestapo police state of strangers forcing him to comply and conform to their rules with the threat of imprisonment and violence is freedom and the best government. Anarchist believes no Gestapo police state at all is freedom and the best government is no government at all. The anarchist is right. You may not realize it until it's you marching up Himmelstrasse into the gas chamber, or you sitting in the electric chair, or you beneath the white phosphorous or napalm bomb dropping out of the sky onto you, or you under the guilotine, or being burned alive as a witch or drawn and quartered.

[@mustbtrouble]

@@choppergirl anarchist? oh god thats the lefts libertarian.

[@choppergirl]

@@mustbtrouble I obey no one and stand on the side of freedom. You obey strangers out of fear. Those who ohey others, by definition, are slaves. So a slave is saying to me, ohmigod its one of those "free" people. She's not just obeying fewer rules of strangers, she-s obeying no rules at all. As if she were her own leader making her own choices about everything. One of those! You're correct!

[@mustbtrouble]

@@choppergirl oh sorry we know eachother? lol whatever youre an anarchist. get real.

[@edwardstevens1438]

He doesn't admit to anything. Doesn't talk about the relevant issues

[@Daddyclive]

Bet he doesn't mention that the UK offered experienced officers and men who had already fought a Vietnam war in Malaya and won because they used "Hearts & Minds" with the locals who gave intelligence on the positions on the Vietmin, same as the Vietcon. The UK also did deep penetration patrols to take out the enemy. Hence the UK didn't join America as the UK said Vietnam was a war American could not win. And so it came to pass.

[@havu-oj4qh]

America cannot buy the self-esteem of the Vietnamese with $. They have been humiliated by the French for 80 years. America appeared when the Vietnamese were winning against the French and accumulated experience against the French, that is why America lost in Vietnam.

[@sranney1]

Johnson was a bad guy

[@alfred-vz8ti]

tragedy? why not war-crime?

[@svs8909]

what a load of shit

[@hoonai]

You know why the USA used

[@bobjordan5231]

I've read extensively on the subject of Vietnam. My conclusion is everyone, democrat and GOP, all were in agreement on the domino theory. Johnson was left holding the bag, but if Kennedy had lived he'd have been despised for Vietnam. Had Nixon won in 1960 he'd have been left holding the bag. Ho Chi Minh was a butcher who sacrificed his people with no limits, and America didn't understand that anyone would such behave. Never underestimate a communist and their total disregard for human life and desire for absolute power.

[@SandfordSmythe]

Never underestimate the loyalty of people to their own country first.

[@bobjordan5231]

@@SandfordSmythe That was demonstrated Theo by the Vietnamese fighting and dying and the Americans not having their heart in the fight. The politicians of America vastly blew this one ten ways to Sunday.

[@gfscfinance8866]

Perhaps, you should review Ho Chi minh's quest before we come to judgement about Vietnam. The seeds of Vietnam war was set way before we actually go involved in Vietnam

[@bobjordan5231]

@@gfscfinance8866 What is your point? Nothing I said is erroneous. All wars have seeds set before the actual war. Ho Chi Minh was a corrupt communist murderer who had no regard for the life of his people, like all communist dictators. Recommend you review world history...

[@havu-oj4qh]

There is no self-respecting Vietnamese person who does not hate "baby killers".

[@2000Betelgeuse]

This guy should have been put in Jail for incompetence..

[@nighthawk984]

explain your reasons

[@2000Betelgeuse]

1-Attending parties to socialize, instead of getting to know the enemy. 2-I think as time went on, he knew he was wrong and did nothing to stop the doomed policy over politics (there are tapes) 3-He lied to the very end, about the failed policy and of his involvement, instead just blaming LBJ for the whole thing, when LBJ relied on his advice 4-He's the type of creature you eventually get to know in every company, every local government, an individual that has some talent and exploits to the very hilt and steps on others to get ahead

[@frannyzooey11]

nighthawk984 I would also like an explanation of his reasons.

[@frannyzooey11]

how old are you ?

[@philippejacob]

Very competent mass murderer. Same thing for the World Bank, one more time confusing leaders and creating murder by hunger all over the world. Leaders got confused because he was good and fast for answering their questions, leaders did not look at his complete absence of ethics, but leaders may not be different. He lured Kennedy and Johnson to start bombing Vietnam, then when the war was lost, he took his distance. He then probably loved his role having been instrumental in another mass killing.

[@jacobfaulkner697]

#1 Lesson is Don't Be an elitist! If Robert s mcnamara would have followed that lesson We would have not been there!

[@keithbrings9053]

or at least listen to the experts.

[@Yo_Kelz]

I think the #1 lesson is "exercise ethics and human compassion", which leads to your point about being an elitist. McNamara only saw people as numbers and war as a means to economic dominance.

[@kingmiura8138]

What's he babbling about now? It wasn't the Vietnam War....it was the LBJ_JFK_McNamara War.

[@robertchflynn]

In Vietnam it's simply the American War. Sounds about right...

[@kingmiura8138]

@@robertchflynn NO! Not all Americans were in favor of or supported the war.

[@Yo_Kelz]

More than anything, it should be called "genocide".

[@emiliopena6841]

To late.its only history

[@TheGlendrum]

Still speaking as if he is above everyone else in the room.

[@Retroscoop]

Well, he has the knowledge, those in the room are waiting for him to share it. You can't turn a cocky racehorse into a sleepy pony for kiddies

[@philipparker8307]

he’s a turkey

[@Retroscoop]

All a bit late, these remorses, but well, better late than never. But do those who matter heard and understood his message ? Could a new pseudo-invasion by Russian undercover troops in the Ukraïne set off the countdown to zero ? Should the West back off should that happen, and just apply more economic pressure, freeze all accounts of wealthy Russians in the West etc ? What could the West do, as long as it isn't NATO territory ? Should it do something, if indeed a very large majority of the people living in the areas Russia wants to cut loose from the Ukraine are speaking Russian ? Are quid pro quo's that enable both sides to claim some victory possible ? Is Russia interested in them ? (The fact that Russia seems to be less enthousiastic about its own expensive Su 57 and is rather going for more 4th generation fighters seems to suggest things aren't going that well economically in that country... Does that give leverage power to the West ? Can the West use that in such a way that it leads to results in stead of only irritating the proud Russians ? Or shouldn't we try to compromise with its potential unreliable authoritarian leader, who wants to stay in office till 2030-something ???

[@powerofone1645]

24:40 Gulf of Tonkin incident........... The CIA should be shut down.

[@matthewemery4205]

YA AND STOP IMPORTING HEROIN

[@jaycharles3121]

Refuse to pay taxes. Protest, get schools shut down, kids walk out, raise HELL! Stay out of the service.

[@Retroscoop]

@@jaycharles3121 The CIA wouldn't care: they have other sources of income than just taxes: they have newspapers, editing companies, companies active in the transport sector etc etc. And I assume they are somehow also into the drugs business, even if that is not easy to prove black and white. They know they aren't popular, so they are prepared for less budget

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

Give the man credit he came out and admitted he was wrong I listen to every tape of him and LBJ talking and they were in a screwed up position people forget JFK started putting US personal in Vietnam and we had a treaty to protect the South. LBJ said he was scared if they do nothing our other allies would have doubt in us coming to there aid. We got sucked in

[@andyoreo333]

METAL HEAD dude Bob was hired by jfk

[@robertchflynn]

Responsible for millions of dead and you want to give the man credit? Why because he wrote a book and admitted his wrong doings? Would love you on my jury...

[@enlightenedwarrior7119]

LBJ and McNamara held back big time in Vietnam all the brass was calling for heavy bombing in the north and stopping the ho chi Minh trail with troops that is where they wrong they were to worried about the Chinese jumping in

[@SandfordSmythe]

I would be worried too. LBJ was worried that this was written into an understanding they had between them, and this would be no-negotiable.

[@winifredatwell3982]

A consummate technocrat whose humanity was tragically compromised. Compared to today's war-mongering ultra conservatives, he deserves credit for trying to re-orient his thinking and challenge his own assumptions.

[@cedrichunter9759]

winifred atwell I agree. But at the cost of millions of lives. A ghastly total of human suffering just to reach conclusions that all other indicators predicted years before.

[@jakeamberson3239]

Funny. JFK and LBJ were liberals of their day. But yes. Bash conservatives for war. Idiot. How is your Biden doing drawing into a worthless proxy war with Russia? Is Biden a war mongering conservative???? Liberals like yourself are too moronic to exist.

[@robslattery6544]

My respect for RM is a lot higher

[@robertchflynn]

Well you must be an idiot...

[@fruff30]

You have respect for a man who was monumental in the senseless deaths of countless american and vietnamese lives? Wow, just Wow.