Forever War : Becoming the Enemy

[@jesserobinson20]

"They train extensively in obscenely cold environments, only to be dropped into an unspeakably hot environment on their first real mission." Anyone who has ever been in the military knows how realistic this sentence is.

[@happynihilist2573]

Anyone how watched Fatelectrician know how realistic this is

[@atpyro7920]

"the us military plans and trains to fight the last war it fought" - zach hazard

[@HolyApplebutter]

​@@atpyro7920To be fair, it's not just the US army (though that certainly isn't to excuse them). It's a common theme with major wars in general that armies tend to expect the conditions of the last war they fought early on.

[@uncreativename9936]

The exact opposite happened in real life. The units sent to recapture the Aleutian islands in WW2 had been training to deploy to North Africa.

[@CDSAfghan]

Spent 2 weeks on ex at -30c(-22f) Canada to +28c(82f) Afghanistan in 24hrs

[@3dartxsi]

When we pulled out of Afghanistan, i was suddenly reminded of these books. I had the sudden realization that the War on Terror has been going on so long that some of the kids out fighting it were born after 9/11, and even more would've been too young to remember it even if they were alive at the time.

[@feralhistorian]

I had a similar moment discussing the security state with some university students. Frustration suddenly gave way to _Right. It's always been like this for you. You think this is normal._

[@khornatekrieger3023]

Yep. My dad was in the first and second invasions and was six when the towers fell. I deployed to fight the same war in 2018 that my dad had been a part of seventeen years ago. It was nuts sitting down and thinking about it in a Chu.

[@meatybtz]

@@feralhistorian I've had this exact commentary with other Zoomers and now some Alphas. My children know. They know because they listened to me, they heard their mother and father mention that this is not right. That this is NOT HOW IT WAS.. and WHAT CHANGED IT.. WHO CHANGED IT.. and WHY THEY DID IT. We have educated them, shown them pictures and reminded them that this is not natural social progression, the security state is not normal and not acceptable. They got a front row seat for the evils of the Lockdowns. They watched us defy them. Refuse the social programming, and openly speak out our refusal, they heard us. They know and they also have come to understand through their own experiences in that event, how the security state turned our world upside down over 9/11. They saw the same methods, the same excuses, the same changes, and the same power grabs. They saw the corruption and the open evil of it. On their own understanding they came to understand what we tried to teach them about the changes that have occurred in the last 24 years. It is important as parents and educators to ensure that we bring these things into the light, and keep them there, to pass on the understanding of what has changed, why it changed, and who did the changing.. why they wanted to make those changes, and whom benefited from it. They stole our future from us.. and from our children. For short term profits and petty power/control. Sold off the future for greed and power mad actions. Keeping the knowledge of how things were alive ensures that when it collapses under the weight of it's own rot and evil, that those who live then.. can remember what needs to be .. and what needs to be made into a warning for those who come after.

[@robertlehnert4148]

Joe Haldeman freely admitted he vastly accelerated technological progress in "Private Mandala" so he could have (just barely) Vietnam veterans (and in one case, a Korea Vet) serve as officers in the UNEF's interstellar war.--that was the officer persona Haldeman was familiar with and it provides a pretty solid departure point for the sociological changes throughout the saga. , Right from the start, we have Boomers vs what we now call Generation X (and in William's case, a child of hippies). If you suspend disbelief in having star travel in the 1990s, the reader sees Mandala and Potter dealing with anachronisms from another era, and all too quickly (as within 3 years of their subjective lives) become anachronisms themselves. "The past is a different country..."

[@Hugebull]

It is one of the nightmares that technology has forced upon us. Three hundred years ago, each generation changed really very little from the previous. Teenage rebellion wasn't a thing. There was continuity in culture and traditions. A boy, as soon as he could waddle on his own feet, would waddle after dad working on their plot of land. While their daughters would swarm around mom, as they were mending clothes, washing clothes, and tending to their vegetable garden. My grandfather faithfully watches State news. He has done so since he was a boy. Up until the 90s, Norway only had one TV channel. I consider everything he sees to be villainous propaganda. While he sees the internet as nothing but a type-writer with jargon within it. Anything I say he immediately claims to be Russian propaganda. The past is not a different country. It is a different planet. It is not that they do different thing there. It is the fact that they are, at the core, different.

[@feralhistorian]

I'm not sure we can say that teenage rebellion wasn't a thing. Certainly not in the way it manifests today, but I think most wars are made possible in no small part by young men wanting to get the hell off the farm. We've gained things and lost things to be sure. Whether we came out ahead in the exchange remains to be seen.

[@dalentalas]

@@feralhistorianOld men complaining about youth these days is as old as, at the very least, the Ancient Greece. Could be even older, but then, we do not have the written evidence for that.

[@boobah5643]

@@feralhistorianPeople in their teens rebelled, yeah, but there's a difference between the newly-minted adults of yesteryear and the extended adolescence of today's First World.

[@yeoldegunporn]

Weird, because the Bright Youth People for example, existed all the way back in the 1920s, when your grandfather might himself have been a teenager. Ever heard of the Blackboard Jungle? Your grandfather’s generation did exactly what teenagers do today, and I do mean the worst way.

[@KnjazNazrath]

"War isn't just fighting. It is a cultural exchange. A blending of Societies. A mating" That one's goin' in my quotations book!

[@CasketGenneva]

hmm

[@LonewolfDelta-db2hh]

" it's so dirty, it's so army..." Yeah that pretty much sums it up

[@sirg-had8821]

That's the Army I remember.

[@thorshammer8033]

In the end life finds a way. The zoo planets will eventually spread out when the Empire of Clones collapses

[@thomaseric8662]

The clones are basically aliens themselves. I think there would eventually be a jahijad against the abomination. Or, the clones would come for some DNA samples and the people would say "no" leading to another war

[@stone-hand]

That is, indeed, their role. Provide a fail-safe in case "Man" turned out to be a bad idea... And, well, clonal reproduction is such a good idea that even bacteria actually avoid it relying completely on it by the use of interspecies horizontal genetic transfer mechanisms.

[@BretHiggins]

It’s so Army… for me it was being sent to Wales on a kayaking course for a week. When I got back I found out I was scheduled for a dentist appointment on the third day of the course. I was charged fifty pounds as a reprimand because the dentist didn’t check that the ENTIRE regiment was in the same country. So army.

[@0num4]

That's incredibly Army. During my first post-military career, I worked for a dreadful woman in a Federal agency. She would kick me out of my own work space for meetings, then had the gall to berate me for not performing my occupational duties, threatening that I could be fired for such delinquency. I thought I had just gotten out of the Army a few months prior, and that dumb lady brought it full circle. She was utterly banal and useless--truly awful to work around. As expected in government, she was promoted out of the way.

[@095au]

How can you have any pudding If you don't eat your meat?

[@andybassman99]

I bought this book when I was 13 thinking it would be a cool sci-fi action book. Boy, was I wrong - and I didn't really understand it until I re-read the book last year, 15 years after the first read. Great book and great analysis!

[@LezzyMania_02]

The Forever War and Starship Troopers are two sides of each coin, some represents the horrors of war and the isolation towards society, the other represents the greater insight of being part of the army.

[@WintersTheSixth]

One is about a society built by soldiers and steered by them Because the only only way to be a higher up in ST is to be a former soldier FW is a society built by politicians and corps where everyone is eventually reduced to a pawn and is to eventually become fuel for the "society"

[@WintersTheSixth]

Hell the federation wasn't even the ones that shot first technically It was some mormons that against the advise of everyone settled in an area where a bunch of bugs live The war escalates because the pseudo arachnids can't understand that humans are individualistic and aren't wholely united Also they chuck a meteor the size of a country to Buenos Aires so that's a giant form of escalation

[@stuartwald2395]

I keep the two of them together with "Ender's Game" on my bookshelf.

[@stephennootens916]

I remember trying to read Starship Troopers a few years ago and it was boring. There was speech after speech and not much action. I didn't even make it through the boot camp section.

[@johanmetreus1268]

@LezzyMania, the whole army thing in Starship Troopers is just the backdrop for a deeper discussion about authority, responsibility and accountability.

[@pedrovascodeoliveiraveriss6293]

"War is the Point". That's how the "War on Terror" often feels.

[@cropathfinder]

Pretty much any modern war/proxy war US leads is just for that. For example the current war in ukraine is just for the sake of having a war in europe. War like that in a strategic position causes massive social and economic consequence for the region which has been reflected in the massive economic downturn in EU countries who US has forced pretty much at gun point to join then in backing ukraine or into NATO at cost to their economies. Meanwhile its good business after all everyone is "sending weapons to ukraine" and that means if they are sending theirs then they need to replace those stocks and who are the biggest suppliers to europe? DING DING its US and Sweden. BOOM again war for the sake of war is good for the military industrial complex and the neocons. Ofc thats me simplifying that, if you want a full very in depth lecture on the topic look at the retired German general Haral Kujat's lecture(there is both translated and dubbed versions on YT) really digging deep into the real background of this conflict and logic from both the military , political and economic background from the US perspective that tells you a lot you won't get from news or military dramatubers.

[@DogeickBateman]

@@cropathfinderhow much communist propaganda did you ingest😂

[@117mick7]

​@@cropathfinder I know I'm replying to a relatively old comment but I always have this question on my mind when I see talking points like this; You realize it's Russia who invaded Ukraine with tanks and guns right? Not America. You seemed to demonize American involvement without mentioning about that fact that's it's Russian missiles landing in Ukrainian cities.

[@dagon99]

​@@117mick7no geopolitical insight, opinion overruled.

[@117mick7]

@@dagon99 cool. Don't like my opinion? Cry me a river.

[@INFILTR8US]

My favorite military science fiction novel. Chock full of inventive ideas, creative battle scenes and a solid love story to boot. Great review!

[@Larry660]

2:45: There is also a "scene" in the book where Mandela is exhausted and wants to sleep, but his female bunk-mate has different ideas The sword cuts both ways.

[@ElJefe3126]

I felt like the shower scene in Starship Troopers was something lifted out of the Forever War...it certainly had that kind of feel. And Major Mandela's new command calling him "The Old Queer" as a sign of respect is priceless.

[@olivermorin3303]

"Why do you always get the tired ones when you're randy and the randy ones when you're tired?" Great line. It's so Army.

[@jhayes1944]

"How wars steal from the future..." Great phrase, I wish the 'forever war' fans in Washington were smart enough to realize what they are doing to our grandchildren.

[@lwilton]

Do you think they care? Remember, we are living in an age when Harvard business School teaches that personal greed is the highest expression of capitalism. The Harvard Law School and Education School run along similar lines. All three are hugely influential in American society. Most likely almost everyone in Washington is in it for their own personal greed, either in terms of money or power (or both) and don't even care about their own children - figuring rightly that if the kids want a good life, they should be greedy and unscrupulous enough to carve it out for themselves, without the help of their parents.

[@bensmith8682]

Oh they know.

[@EggBastion]

Grandchildren ? I'm fed up of feelin it _right now_

[@jasonaugustine3370]

@@lwilton the last politician, who seemed to care about anyone but themselves took a one-way trip to Dallas

[@stuckp1stuckp122]

I read it in my teens as a pair with Starship Troopers. The meat grinder homogenizes both societies. I’m reminded of Apocalypse Now where the grunt, a former New Orleans chef spoke how he witnessed beautifully marbelled steak being turned into a boiled grey mass.

[@verigumetin4291]

I love the coat. I think it's the reason I subscribed. Please wear cyberpunk glasses for your next coat show.

[@benjackson1454]

A pair of spider Jerusalem shades would be preem.

[@keithklassen5320]

I love how you genuinely mean this, you're not trying to mock him.

[@RCAvhstape]

The boots are cool, too.

[@ДокторЯдо]

I'm only about halfway into the book and it's already THE scariest piece of fiction I've ever read, hands down. All those "cosmic horror" dudes got nothing on Joe Haldeman. They try to scare me, the reader, with things they made up. Haldeman frightened me with things and experiences that are real. I'm no soldier, but I've spent few days and nights dangerously close to the warzone. And what I immediately picked from "Forever War" is the idea that your actions DON'T guarantee your survival. Even more it depends on things completely out of your control, things that you don't know. We're not even touching the fact that EVERYTHING is lethal in the book. You wear that amazing powered suit? It can ki11 you in six different ways if you're not careful. You got psychic powers? They'll be the cause of your death. Your scientists found a way to survive extreme acceleration during evasion maneuver? It's a hellish device that forces you to endure long hours of claustrophobia and physical pain, and should anything go wrong, makes your body explode. Scientists didn't mean anything against you, they just cannot come up with anything less torturous yet. Oh, and hypnotically imprinted propaganda. The idea that they'll find a way to make you believe something even if you know it's utter b/s is disturbing. And I'm only about halfway into the book.

[@TheHenirik]

"the idea that your actions DON'T guarantee your survival. Even more it depends on things completely out of your control, things that you don't know." isnt that kinda the point of cosmic horror though? you know there are something that affects you, you cant properly understand what it is, what it wants or how its doing things, but you know that its immensely dangerous and going against it might or might not have terrible consequence.

[@ДокторЯдо]

@@TheHenirik Yes, with added horror of knowing that things Haldeman depicts are very much NOT imaginary.

[@stardog62]

I loved the "three World Wars" line. It's one of several great jokes from the last few weeks, along with the Chuckie III and dick tips comments from the Kings episode.

[@thomaskositzki9424]

"Forever War" is my number 1 favourite book. It has so many levels on which it is mind-expanding - the drastic effects of relativistic travel, the despair of a conscripts life, the futility of pointless wars. I have read it about five times and found a new perspective to look at the story each time.

[@zimriel]

and about how The Rainbow becomes mandatory. That's where we were headed until last Tuesday.

[@ethanmckinney203]

When I was a student at MIT, Joe Haldeman was a writing professor. I loved The Forever War. One of my great regrets is that I didn't realize he taught there!

[@RCAvhstape]

Mr. Feral Historian, your rundown on this is superb. I served in the Gulf War of '91. When I was in American high school in the 80s, peace was normal and war was the anomaly. We had troops deployed overseas to prevent war with the USSR. After 1991, we started sending troops to far flung places nobody had ever heard of, fighting in Kosovo for some forgotten reason, bombing this terrorist or that. After 9/11, we made up an excuse to invade Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11, and we sent troops to Afghanistan for 2 whole decades when we should have wrapped up AQ in about 2 months and beat feet out of there. Sec Def Donald Rumsfeld was lecturing on preparing for "The Long War", which is a neocon fantasy of using post-Cold War US power to reshape the world (no, it's not just about oil). In the last 20 years, the US population has become cynically used to the idea that we are always at war and always will be. We are deep in debt and we just hope that problem will magically go away. What are we fighting for? Who are we fighting? Where are we fighting? Nobody really knows and nobody really cares as long as we don't personally feel the pain of it. I read Haldeman's book in the 90s and I loved it, but only as time goes on do I realize how on the mark Haldeman really was and still is.

[@Ghoulonoid]

That point about becoming the enemy you fight was devastating. I recently had a conversation with a friend about the old propaganda of the Cold War about the USSR, how it could do nothing right, how it was a top down bureaucratic nightmare full of bad ideas that get pushed through because nobody is allowed to say no, how corrupt it was, how it was vulnerable to being misled by nonsensical scientific theories that would have devastating economic and industrial consequences, and how we've basically become all of those things. People think when I make that arguments that its some paranoid right wing fantasy about the return of the red scare but really its less about neo-communism and more about how people's relationship with collectivism seems to have changed as a whole for the worse.

[@feralhistorian]

The Sovietization of American society is a topic that most people prefer to ignore, it seems.

[@dalentalas]

@@feralhistorianMore specifically, acquiring all of the negative traits of the Soviet Union, without any of its' redeeming features.

[@Hugebull]

@@feralhistorian The Diary of Pitirim Sorokin is pretty telling in this. In 1917, He was a professor at Saint Petersburg University and a member of the Socialist Revolutionary Party. He pushed for the revolution in the classroom. He saw the disaster that the revolution brought. So he fled to the United States. Where he went and became a professor. The amounts of Soviet academics that pushed for hell, then fled said hell, just to promote that same hell in their new home, is staggering. It is certainly all the proof I need to believe in the demonic. And one of FDR's brilliant ideas as part of the New Deal, was to give these people free money to continue writing their pamphlets, books, and articles. But hey what do I know. I consider Teddy Roosevelt to be the first Marxist President of America. So there is that. edit: typo

[@Katzbalger001]

Exactly. My son understands this to some extent, but my daughter does not. I weep for the future.

[@mikhailiagacesa3406]

@@feralhistorian Reaganism had nothing to do with it? Please...

[@wwiiinplastic4712]

I first read the book 45 years ago when I was 15. l did understand a bit of it then as I have military family and Vietnam had just wrapped up. I eventually got to meet Haldeman; a few times actually. He signed the copy of the book that I bought back in1979. His brother Jack did some work with the agriculture department at the University of Florida so Joe would come into town often and occasionally would sign books at Novel Ideas in Gainesville. I enjoyed the book, and am a bit astonished that some of his 'predictions' came to pass but he's no PKD (lol).

[@Warsie]

The the/thim pronouns and everyone being gay sure hit me and I read that in like 2014 or something lol.

[@an_insane_rogue_ai]

This video makes me wonder if you've read and what your analysis of Stephen Baxter's Xeelee Sequence books would be. A large part of the series focuses on a similar idea, humanity getting into an endless war that slowly takes control of human civilization and changes into something inhuman. I had heard of the Forever War books but didn't know much about them, this video definitely puts them on the list of books I eventually want to read.

[@darrenrenna]

Wow! I can't believe I missed this one, it is exactly the kind of thing I would have devoured in my 20's.....guess I'll have to enjoy it at 40!

[@cascadianrangers728]

An excellent book. I recommend it every time Starship Troopers comes up in conversation

[@johanmetreus1268]

Why? It's like recommending chocolate truffles every time Waldorf sallad is mentioned.

[@diraska]

My first time reading this was as a teen and I have not revisited it in years. Not only was it great getting that refresher on the book, you also raised a lot of points and ideas that I had not noticed. Thanks!

[@mojrimibnharb4584]

I read this 40 years ago and, my god, its grimmer than I remembered. Good work.

[@georgebenwell664]

Thank you for your excellent content....my wife and I have been bingeing your commentaries for the last couple days and getting a great deal out of it.

[@bertsteele139]

Reminds me of the story about sheep herders whose flocks were being decimated by wolves, they had no dogs so they started breeding for more bigger, more aggressive rams. Then they bred them to be carnivores (higher metabolism/better fighters) and sheathed the horns in sharp iron. When they released them against the wolves the slaughtered any wolf that attacked the flock, then they began hunting the wolves down until there wasn’t a single wolf in their valley. But then the rams started decimating their flocks!

[@TheVileOne]

I can’t get enough of feral historian’s analysis!

[@j.c.vanhandel7907]

I'd be interested on your thoughts on "The High Crusade" by Poul Anderson. It's not your usual dystopian/militaristic theme, but nonetheless I'd like to hear what you think.

[@KerryHarrison]

I'd be interesting in his thoughts about that also.

[@feralhistorian]

It's in my reading list for the next month, so odds are there will be some thoughts.

[@kylejamesdalzell2839]

@@feralhistorian It was actually filmed by a European company, but I have heard the adaptation was absolutely terrible. The book screams for a fun worthy movie, that could become a beloved film for many people.

[@evanmorris1178]

One of my favorite novels. But no where near as deep as this one. Basically a romp. Not to say it doesn’t have some good tropes! I always wanted to make a great movie adaptation. The existing film isn’t good enough to be bad. Pointless and doesn’t even follow the book.

[@jptata3161]

Your ending synopsis really resonates with me. It's one of my all time favorite novels, but not because I enjoyed reading it.

[@mpjstuff]

Thanks for covering this book. It has a lot of concepts that stuck with me.

[@masterofrockets]

It was a really interesting view on how the world would progress over hundreds of years. It reminds me of the future speculative fiction of the turn of the 20th century.

[@thomaskendall452]

Gads, it's been half a century since I first read 'The Forever War'? Excellent analysis, Feral!

[@TheRetroEngine]

Your presentations are amazing. I remember this book, but the way you portray it gives it another dimension to think about. Your background looks like Red Dead Redemption 2.

[@theburntcookieshub5803]

First seeing your channel, I worked for the IHS as a Paramedic on a res in SD for a couple years.... lord I miss it. Beautiful. Bless ya and this analysis was FANTASTIC! Love the delivery, summary, and everything you're doing

[@ArmouryTerrain]

As deep as the message is in this book, the next two makes it feel like a small puddle next to the challenger deeps. I have all 3 bound together into a tomb entitled "peace and war" and to read it is a complete mind fuck.

[@floydbaker2240]

This book has SEQUELS? :I ?

[@Kuikkamies]

Canonically, Forever Free and Forever Peace

[@ArmouryTerrain]

@@Kuikkamies have you read them?

[@Kuikkamies]

@@ArmouryTerrain Aye. Not really a fan of Forever Free, felt it undermined the the first book.

[@PilgrimsPass]

Great video. I read the book in college and thought the conclusion of the book was that only egalitarian hive mind communism would save us. Because MAN had a presumptious superiority complex to him that seemed justified by the plot and even the tone of the prose. Even if that communal cloned hive mind society seems eerie and dystopian to us, (because it is) that society was in fact morally superior to the individual based humanity of the past. Its also what ussured in peace not only for "human" civilization if you can still call it that, but in the cosmos as well. Not only that but the cloned hive mind society is rather magnanimous and humble and is what esnures Mandella can have a happy ending with his war waifus. Also the war creating instruments that finally over threw capitalism in a cosmic dialectic is a pretty marxist thing as I understand it. I still loved the book and it had a fantastic portrayal of relativistic space warfare i only seen similarly portrayed (but not as well) in Enders Game. Forever war is overall a great book with fantastic reflections even if I dissagree with the conclusion.

[@patbak235]

That's not the conclusion

[@vantave9946]

Well it is objectively true that only egalitarian communism can save us: It’s either that or a brutal dark age we could easily not see the other side of. But the hive mind part is certainly no longer culturally relevant which is interesting. I think that was a concept/fear that only existed in the collective consciousness of Cold War America (another example of “becoming the enemy”) that, with the complete destruction of the USSR, no longer exists.

[@catnium]

The history of humanity just appears as a forever war to eyes that look at a different time scale

[@kevinmorbidthelostcronin1984]

I agree about 98% with this video. I have a few contentions that are more with the surface idea than the core principle. "War isn't just fighting. It is a cultural exchange. A blending of Societies. A mating" I would like to change it to "Politics is a cultural exchange." The "War" does little other than force an aggressive form of politics. The War keeps forcing the political exchange, even if the exchange is minimal and done badly. Without the war, both parties could have retreated into defined spaces and avoided future exchanges. The war keeps pushing it until communication is fully possible and diplomacy happens. The other point I want to dispute is how the society is consumed by the effects of war and bent by the war profiteers. I want to point out a clarification, this should not be an indictment on war and the soldiers. The people actually engaged in the war, barely even have a loose connection to it. This is a political indictment, especially of politicians who use conflict to secure their power base. Humans were losing their wealth to a unclear cause so the political leadership could stay in power. It was rationalize by the Out Group being bad, though there was circumstantial evidence at best. The population of Earth was slowly encouraged into behaviours that made them more compliant and reliant on the government, eliminating the threat to the power base if the war ended. By-products of this were first the slowing of development, infantilization of the masses, and than an inverse in which there was no real power base to secure. While war is not to be glorified, the actual effects were driven not by the war, but a politically powerful group trying to use it to their advantage, then becoming ever more reliant on it to keep power.

[@davidk6269]

After listening to your book summary, I have a very strong interest in reading this book. The premise sounds fascinating, as I also see the parallels with today's world. Thank you for introducing me to this book.

[@jakubkvacala1880]

Race of clones, 1 bioweapon is all you need to win

[@rgbx6923]

That's definetly my favorite classical scifi and favorite military scifi book. Little corretion: Charon isn't supposed to be Plutos actual moon, but a dwarf planet somewhere at the edge of the solar system. Pluto wans't even discoverd when the book was written.

[@erikawhelan4673]

11:28 We have met the enemy, and he is us.

[@snowtification4818]

but what if the enemy is there because of...

[@justincase12880]

Lord Knows, From your mouth to Gods Ear Honeymoon 🎉

[@be-noble3393]

Some of my friends ask me why I didn’t like the book Starship Troopers. I always answer, I read the Forever War first.

[@floydbaker2240]

I read it secondly and I'm glad I did or ST would've felt childish by comparison.

[@Archris17]

One is depressing as fuck and reflects a modern society and military-industrial complex, predicting a grim, horrible future where we throw away everything we are for the sake of a war we never needed to fight. The other says, "Maybe those running society should be those who have shown they give a shit about it," and then frames that within a war story. They are fundamentally not the same book, nor the same messaging. Their only similarities are skin-deep.

[@klaykid117]

Exactly. One of them is basically a warning wrapped up in a story similar to 1984, while the other is a political manifesto frame by story similar to Ayn Rand.

[@3.6_roentgen]

Easily one of my favorite books. Thank you for reviewing.

[@johnstacy7902]

Be a cool movie

[@gadzilla6664]

Another excellent video. Very inciteful and interesting. The criminal lack of subscribers, likes, and views isn't understandable to me (same for youtube"s inability to provide proper notification when you upload). Still patiently waiting for your first 40k video. May I suggest a starting place? The Night Lords Trilogy. I know it isn't one of the usual suggested starting places, but I feel it's still one of the best.

[@feralhistorian]

Night Lords added to the reading list.

[@gadzilla6664]

@@feralhistorian Hope that you enjoy it and find something interesting to comment on. 👍

[@tomhalla426]

For odd events, Haldeman was writing a commentary on Starship Troopers. Heinlein met Haldeman at a Science Fiction conference, and told Haldeman he liked The Forever War.

[@larsflieskites]

I have been binging your content due to a prolonged fit of manflu. Thank you for approaching some of my favorite films/books from a different angle 😊

[@feralhistorian]

I hope these ramblings in some way help put that flu to rest.

[@BoraHorzaGobuchul]

Thank you for your exciting lectures! Also, the beautiful vistas you choose as the backdrop. Suggest Scalzi's Old Man's War series.

[@feralhistorian]

I have very mixed impressions of Old Man's War, and Scalzi in general. But yes, there's some things worth digging into.

[@michaelgreaves2375]

When I was a little kid in the seventies, My dad would come home from work and turn on the news and watch The War. One day they announced "The War is Over." I was deeply confused. There had always been a war.

[@Jesus_Offical]

Not to threat the war is only paused it will recommence soon

[@smeagollumartin]

Just found this channel, love the aesthetic and the writing, damn this one hits hard

[@edxcal84]

I read this book, oh, 20 years ago. I got it as a suggestion that it was similar to Starship Troopers, though it was, it was also vastly different. I thought it was a bold and out of the box idea with one of the best endings, right up there with Starship Troopers.

[@flyingwombat59]

I read this book in junior high, over 50 years ago. I don’t remember anything happening to Potter’s family. As I recall, Mandella discovered that his mother, an elderly hippie in her 80s, was allowed only palliative medical care. Mandala and Potter rejoin the service

[@BigIronEnjoyer]

Really enjoyed the breakdown. Kind of a Paul Harrell vibe to the presentation too.

[@0num4]

I hadn't thought of the comparison yet, as I'm new to this channel's content. I can see it now, beyond the simplicity of their scenery and vocal styles being similar. RIP Paul Harrell.

[@shanelyon414]

Amazing book, loved the ending. Perhaps a demonstration of one potential human evolutionary path, we stoped hating each other and unified while respecting our ancestors and giving them space.

[@Greystone42]

This was a good break down, I had always wondered what the book was about. So thanks for that.

[@joshuaeffendi491]

never heard of this book, but thank you of explaining it, since historys had many similarity of this book in the past and current

[@Der_Thrombozyt]

It's interesting to observe, how the algorithm suddenly feeds a channel to thousands. The videos are months old, but many comments only days old in a very strange ratio. On the forever war - I got this book back in the late 90ies. Borrowed it from a friend who never wanted it back. As a kid born in the 80ies, the allegory towards the Vietnam war wasn't immediately obvious, but the time dilation mechanic was fascinating and it was one of the few books that has garnered more than one re-read.

[@ForestGigaChad34]

My dad gave me his first edition of the book that he bought when he was in a college. Such an amazing book

[@Favk21]

What an interesting and concise video. I listen to a lot of synthwave and Meteor mixing it with electric guitar has been my absolute favorite artist thus far. He has track called Forever War. Thirteen minute behemoth of a journey, that imo is the peak. After this video, I feel I'm oblidged to read the book. It sounds terribly interesting.

[@Modern_Diogenes]

2:26 that sentence got my jaw on the ground like a cartoon character

[@hyperdude144]

Huh, the thumbnail really gives the phrase "point and shoot" a whole new meaning.

[@jackeldridge4225]

I had a coworker 8 years ago who was a manager at a club I worked at. He was on active researve and not looking to go back as he got out due to being shot up pretty bad. He avidly did not want to go back into service. His only option was to pick up and move out of state and take a job in recruitment... closest location was a couple states away. He hated giving up his job and the life he had been making. So yeah I sure as hell do not trust the military, or it's callous tactics.

[@PandaForceSupreme]

Read that book in 1989. Haunted me ever since. It was the endlessness that got to me. One point I found to be almost universal, the shock and adjustement of coming home and the almost 'need' to be with others of your experience, because you can't relate to the world you came back to. FYI, the Gundam anime series had a storlyine called the Endless Waltz. It refered to the endless nature of the war they had been fighting. Just a dance that never ends, with each dancer always trying to take the lead.

[@CosmoShidan]

If you watch the original UC Gundam, it places war as an extension of state power, and that it's a means of allowing totalitarianism free reign. Not to mention that it links both capitalism and fascism as two sides of the same coin in that they want power by the Federation and Zeon respectively. Though, Forever War I think does follow the fallacy of reinscription, in that it may be reinforcing war by not showing the Taurans' point of view, but that's my view of the book.

[@PandaForceSupreme]

@CosmoShidan Little do people realize we are referencing what is techincally a children's show. Were THEY trying to tell us something.

[@CosmoShidan]

@@PandaForceSupreme It's too sophisticated to be a children's show, since its about a child soldier on the one hand, and it appears to be juvinnile with the bright superhero colors. So it's aimed at older teens between 13-25. Nevertheless, there's real world science in the book, such as the O'Neill space Islands, the MS function according to Newtonian laws of physics, and that there's also strategy involved when it comes to the battles. Not to mention, Gundam has an anti-war message that the Forever war purports, although Gundam 0079 nails it better than forever war, by showing just how far both ends are willing to go for power. Otherwise, I see that as a farce to distract from actually making an argument.

[@Xboxzilla]

0:45 Nice "They Are Made of Meat" reference!

[@epope98]

i read that book as a kid in 2002 in highschool, i still recommend it to this day. it was a very good book but also sad because you could clearly see at times the mc felt like he was a relic of a long dead era and didnt belong there

[@matthewboyd8689]

When I was a kid and learned about the Nazis, I said to myself that uf my country ever became evil I would fight it not for it like them. Then Luigi comes along with deny defend depose and shows the world what that idea really means

[@mvslice]

Great video!

[@georgemelitsis2607]

great book and very thought-provoking commentary. Sincere thanks.

[@SierraSierraFoxtrot]

I found the book very difficult to grok when I read it as a teen in 90s. Looking at it now, Haldeman nailed it.

[@Fauxstus]

I loved this book. Honestly the most unrealistic part isn't even space travel in 1990, but the conscripts not shooting their officers in the first act when an idiotic training exercise goes predictably wrong and brutally kills everyone's favourite person in camp.

[@JHimminy]

And yet no one was fragged after Iwo Jima 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@JHimminy]

Or the pre-D-Day training mishap that killed a thousand soldiers off the coast of England.

[@JHimminy]

Cattle are cowed

[@NealHoltschulte]

Fantastic analysis. You caught a lot that I missed. Thank you

[@Behindtheseams1]

Your channel is great man

[@shaider1982]

3:00 the French had mobile bordellos, with one being present in thr battle of Dien Bien Phu.

[@coryg1109]

It was an excellent book. Good discussion/review.

[@marcuskirsch4128]

one of the great sci fi books.

[@martinithechobit]

That some TRraitor of Mars!!? YES.

[@Kyle-dx5kf]

Thank you, I love your analysis.

[@MAWSAFGJP-p5b]

Dear everyone. We love how creative you are. Now will you PLEASE STOP GIVING THEM IDEAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@metalrules1135]

I swear that there is a personality type that reads the absolute worst dystopian stuff and thinks, "What a great idea."

[@charlesatanasio]

​@@metalrules1135want your mind blown? The origional utopia was a distopia.

[@adamesd3699]

This was one of my favorite sci-fi books in high school. I probably read it at least a dozen times. Haldeman had an accurate reading of officialdom: Bureaucratic, propagandistic, amoral, and self-serving.

[@PatMcRutch]

fantastic! thanks!

[@HyperboreanAnchovy44]

This is my all time favorite fiction book, does not get enough praise these days.

[@Thelastetherborn]

4:03 one of the greatest moments in KZbin history. Watch it over and over 👍

[@PelagiustheGrey]

Prophetic book

[@o.c.kiddkidd5163]

One of my all time favorites, and one of the most difficult to read, books. It is a much better fit for filming than its spiritual and historic predecessor, Heinlein's "Starship Troopers."

[@oliversmith9200]

Very interesting your review and comments. Very.

[@thomaseric8662]

Short and insightful. Thank you

[@katamarankatamaranovich9986]

"War isn't just fighting. It is a cultural exchange. A blending of Societies. A mating" It puts into words what I am experiencing right now while living in Ukraine. Society degenerates, becomes politically disengaged, less concerned over human rights, less driven, more selfish. Its not what it used to be. It seems closer to the russian one now than its ever been. I used to question if it always been this way and I just noticed it now, but this single line made me realize what is really happening

[@stringfellowbalk2654]

Thanks for that insight.

[@Archris17]

Right, because there was no discernable difference by 1945 between the UK and Germany. None whatsoever.

[@willumbermarchant5510]

Fantastic books these. Really opened the mind with a crowbar

[@khornatekrieger3023]

Another book I quite like that kinda came out of this similar vein of 'power-armor' sci-fi/Militarism critique is Armour which explores the dehumanizing effects of war, the military machine, but also the way its internalized and repeated internally and externally.

[@LittlyLary]

Walter Jon Williams wrote a short story called "The Green Leopard Plague" that has calorie based currency, it's a very interesting concept.

[@DarlingScotty]

You know, I've been power loading your videos for a few days now. Generally speaking I find your takes relatively nuanced, enjoyable, and great fodder for the world building I'm doing for my first ever sci-fi novel. But every so often you make a crack that causes me to wonder if you'd even bother to piss on me if I was on fire. However I can't really get that mad at you, because you're the *Feral* Historian, not the Friendly Historian.

[@feralhistorian]

I'm friendly, though probably in an _old stray tomcat_ kind of way.

[@joshcarter-com]

“The Forever War” is the very best completely depressing book that I never want to read again.

[@bertellijustin6376]

As a Marine that went to war in the early 00s this book strongly resonated with me. I left for service in 99 and spent aMost allnof my time during two enlistments overseas. From Okinawa to the sandbox. When I came home after my last tour it was like coming home to a new country. Everything had changed. Good was bad and bad was good. It seems like an exaggeration but it really isn’t. When I left gay was ok when I came home gay was the way. When I left race wasn’t anything when I came home it was everything. When I left you could rent a nice apartment for a couple of hundred bucks, when I returned a thousand wouldn’t even get you a rat hole in the same town. I still don’t feel like I’m a part of the society I went to war for. There’s a gap between me and everyone who stayed home and lived their lives like there was never even a war on.

[@Phoolery]

Agreed. This book is a hard read, but a necessary one.

[@jasonneugebauer5310]

Great book. Politics and culture in the US is on track to achieve the narrative.

[@davemedina437]

War is cold ... so cold.

[@KatanamasterV]

**** you sir Just because I posted that and then realized that somebody that reads this will need more context. That is a direct quote from the book that very directly relates to the commentary in this video. Additional note, KZbin has a problem with one of the seven words you can't say on television today.