Forged Legacy: " Mercedes-Benz 300 SL " Scandal in Germany - Double-Dealing with Doubled Numbers

[@justincase9014]

If you like this video please hit the subscribe button or Buy Me a Coffee - buymeacoffee.com/justinacaseoldschoolstyle. Thanks for your attention & support!! Have a nice day!!

[@pobinr]

Leave out the needless distracting music. I'm here for information not music

[@Baard2000]

A Ferrari specialist told me that if an expensive one is wrecked by an accident .....its possible that 3 new ones are 'born' : 1 with Original engine , 1 with original gearbox and 1 with original frame .......😁

[@justincase9014]

He knows his job. Salvaging parts from wrecked classics can lead to multiple 'new' cars

[@whitesamurai]

That is why this story is confusing: the "fake" car is not really fake, it just has the wrong serial number on it. It would be fake if it was a replica with the serial number of an original. But that is not the case here. These appear to all be real cars from the manufacturer, albeit stolen and with incorrect serial numbers welded on.

[@justincase9014]

Great point, it's not a 'replica' in the traditional sense. The term 'fake' can get tricky here because these are authentic cars from the manufacturer, but their altered serial numbers are what cause the controversy. It blurs the lines between authenticity and legal legitimacy. This complexity is what makes the story so fascinating! Thanks for sharing your insight!

[@jamesclark3879]

I think this is a case of an old time con man who didn't adapt with technology. In the pre-internet days it was a lot easier to get away with such VIN alterations or substitutions. He probably assumed that either the car he borrowed the numbers from no longer existed, or it wouldn't matter one day if two cars with the same VIN surfaced in different continents. Kienle kept running the same con game for way too long.

[@justincase9014]

Good point! The pre-internet era definitely allowed for a lot more ambiguity when it came to VIN numbers and car histories. Kienle-or anyone else in similar situations-probably never anticipated how interconnected and traceable everything would become. As technology caught up, it exposed a lot of practices that may have seemed easier to get away with in the past. It's fascinating (and a bit sobering) to see how the digital age has reshaped the world of classic car authenticity. Thanks for sharing your perspective!

[@jamesclark3879]

@@justincase9014 Now what no one wants to talk about is the authenticity of many of those high dollar muscle cars that cross the big money auctions.

[@justincase9014]

Authenticity is a hot topic at high-profile auctions with so many restomods and replicas out there it's a mess.

[@lear60man]

Reminds me of this Jedi who had his Corvette stolen in high school only to track it down in Vegas. Dude almost died getting it back.

[@davidgalea6113]

Where can read about this? I can empathise with this person you speak of. I would do anything if god forbid my classic got stolen.

[@lear60man]

@@davidgalea6113 'Corvette Summer' staring Mark Hamill

[@davidgalea6113]

@@lear60man thanks

[@keithammleter3824]

This reminds me of something that happened here in Australia. In the early 1970's, Ford Australia made 300 Falcon GTHO's. These rare high powered cars are now worth up to $1,000,000 if in perfect condition. There has been something of a cottage industry of people buying standard XY series Falcons, painting them and installing parts to make them look like GTHO's, but not necessarily with the correct 351 Cleveland V8 engine and correct extra strong gearbox, nor the correct diff, etc. About 25 years ago Ford Australia put out a press release stating that it had come to their attention that there were more than 300 GTHO's registered. Buyer beware!

[@StC-j5k]

when i was in uni, another student had an XY Fairmont that he had spent time and money on, and made a "HO" replica out of it, he didn't mind telling if you chatted to him about it, as he was proud of his vehicle - and that XY went hard. Anyway his XY was broken into and they only stole one item - the dash clock - apparently there are as scarce as when you are trying to build a replica ... he still had a hole on his dash when i finished uni

[@5150TJT]

Most fakes are imports from South Africa, same specs but called a Fairmont for that Market..

[@davidlilja9180]

As a long time Holden/Brock fan, it pleases me greatly to read that Ford behaved with such ethics regarding their iconic GTHO. Thank you! 🙂 Somewhere in storage I have a blank HDT ID plate. When I was retrenched from their service department by Charlie Savage for 'working too slowly', the plate happened to still waiting to be fitted, in my toolbox. I've often thought about just what such a genuine blank plate could be worth in the classic car market. It's Ok to dream about doing something but never actually 'do it', isn't it? 🤔 Actually, I prefer the idea of retaining the plate myself, just to recall my time at HDT, & with Brock, where I saw things I'd never have seen or known otherwise. I'd left Holden's Experimental Engineering (where VN body shells were everywhere while the VL was still current) to work at HDT after the break-up between Holden & Brock over the 'polarizer period', of which I fitted a number of. Until 2013 when Holden sad goodbye to Oz, I'd often wished that I'd stayed with Holden. C'est la vie! I had other fun times in the industry, including QA at Kenworth Trucks & 15 years with RACV/RACT delivering roadside service, setting some KPI records, too. Mercedes-Benz' apparent behaviour in the investigation, detailed here, is no surprise to me. German auto brands have already shown their true colours in the VW/Porsche emissions scandals that didn't interrupt their overall sales for very long, and also throughout the '30s & '40s. Zig! Only money matters; & it's BIG money in cars. I worked on RR-Bentley servicing & restoration for 3 years, not long after leaving HDT. The truly rich have so much spare money, they often spend large amounts on any investment or passion.

[@keithammleter3824]

@@davidlilja9180 How did you feel about installing polarizers?

[@mikls6830]

I have a real passion for classic and actual cars.I even do restoration but just for myself. 20 years ago, my first classic car was a Mercedes Pagoda SL and it was the cost of cheap brand new car to dealershop (Pagoda in good conditions but not perfect). Now it costs 80 to 140k€ so the price of a luxury brand new car like a Porsche 992. A professional offers a nut and bolt restoration for 220k€. I even remember than a Dino 246GT wasn't so expensive 25 years ago... Now prices have totally increased and buyers are a bit mad or too rich ! The Rudi Klein "Junkyard"'s auction sales is an excellent demo of such crazyness. A Porsche 356B Drauz Roadster has been sold $70,000 ! A highly crash car, without motor but registration plates ! The funniest ( I guess) is that Rudi Klein has certainly been paid to take off that car from a car crash by the insurance... He certainly bought the Porsche for few hundred bocks in the 80's. Then sold the motor and gearbox if they were in good conditions to make a little profit. 40 years after, the junk car looks like gold ! At $70,000, you can have a second hand Corvette C8 with 10.000 miles, perfect conditions ! Something is wrong !

[@justincase9014]

Thanks for sharing your experiences! It’s fascinating to hear about your journey with classic cars, especially the Mercedes Pagoda SL-what a gem! And yes, the market has gone a bit wild. The Porsche 356B story is a perfect example of how nostalgia can create a frenzy. It’s crazy to think a crash-damaged shell can outvalue a modern, high-performance car like the Corvette C8. Do you think this trend will ever cool down, or are we in for even more inflated prices.

[@mikls6830]

@@justincase9014 Yes the Pagoda is an excellent car but to my opinion prices are too expensive now. I plan to buy a 560SL ( R107). A better motor, AC, electric windows and cruise control... For 25/30k€, it's possible to buy a car in good conditions. It's complicated to make plans concerning the prices of classic cars because new generations isn't attracted very much with cars to my opinion. Coupes, convertibles and sport cars will increase because of rarity. Most of all, new rich clients from China, India... will make increase classic cars market because some cars weren't imported in 60/80's.

[@justincase9014]

Great point about the rising prices of the Pagoda and the appeal of the 560SL. The R107 offers a lot of modern comforts and reliability while still maintaining that classic Mercedes charm-definitely a solid choice for that price. Predicting the classic car market is tricky, especially with shifting generational interests and the influence of emerging markets like China and India. It’ll be interesting to see how the demand for these rare coupes and convertibles evolves in the next decade. Thanks for sharing your perspective!

[@dennisrobinson4588]

Wow, what a bombshell!!! I hope that this gets resolved quickly! If I ever had enough money I always wanted a 300 SL to drive.

[@manuelgonzalez5508]

Sad how greedy people can destroy someone's dreams so callously 😞

[@BarryRudge]

If you are buying a car worth so much money surely you would first get an expert to check the chassis/Vin number and everything else to confirm the identity before purchase. There are many classic cars of similar value but missing chassis numbers should be ringing alarm bells before you have parted with your money. But it is known that sometimes a chassis can be purchased by one person and another person can find an engine that originally belonged to that chassis and both people build a car around what they have. This is why there is one more ERA vintage race car than the company ever produced.

[@justincase9014]

You're right, and that’s a good point. The process of verifying a classic car’s identity, especially one of high value like the Mercedes-Benz 300 SL, is standard practice for serious buyers. However, the scandal involving Kienle shows how even these safeguards can be manipulated when forgery comes into play. The issue here lies in the sophistication of the forgery. Kienle was not only altering or forging chassis numbers but also creating falsified documentation to support these alterations. This meant that even diligent buyers relying on paper trails and supposed “expert” checks could be deceived.

[@BarryRudge]

@@justincase9014 Ihope he's jumpred on from a great height by the courts as it destroys confidence in the high end class ic car market, But where ever there are items of high value you will always find the odd crook out to make a buck.

[@justincase9014]

@@BarryRudge Germans are neat people. They will resolve the issue, i am certain of that.

[@Baard2000]

A Ferrari specialist told me that if an expensive one is wrecked by accident .....its possible that 3 new ones are 'born' : 1 with Original engine , 1 with original gearbox and 1 with original frame .......

[@vsevolodozerov8947]

But first you have to find the second expert to check the 1st one.

[@samrothstein6792]

Kienle is a cheater and scammer!He did this since the beginning of his shop!

[@justincase9014]

Allegedly 😶

[@philhermetic]

The same thing has happened with Jag C and D types, bent chassis parts which had numbers were rebuilt into cars which were essentially clones of the original that had had new chassis parts fitted, for that matter, more Edwardian furniture from the UK has been exported than was ever made during the Edwardian period, the only difference is the value of the "antiques" Classic warbirds are "restored" after being dug out of bogs where in reality the only parts that go onto the new aircraft are the numbers, plus anything salvegable, it is the numbers that are the thing!

[@justincase9014]

Great point. it’s fascinating how much importance is placed on those numbers, almost as if they carry the soul of the original item. Whether it’s classic cars, warbirds, or antiques, it really highlights how our perception of authenticity is shaped. Do this approach preserves history or just creates high-value replicas, who knows!!

[@MrHendrikus1977]

what i cant understand, MB sold like xxxxx 300SL's all with a chassis number, how and why would you give it a new/different number - and how would you obtain thas chassis number?

[@justincase9014]

The process of renumbering chassis, often happened when cars were rebuilt after accidents, or during restoration projects to make them appear more desirable or original. A new chassis number could be obtained through less-than-legitimate channels, or sometimes even by salvaging a number from a wrecked or scrapped car. This practice wasn't uncommon in the high-stakes world of vintage car trading, where the 'right' number could significantly increase a car's value.

[@MrHendrikus1977]

@@justincase9014 thx mate for the information! i do hope not all buyers were scammed this way

[@sjb3460]

@@justincase9014 Yes, there are thousands of "recovered Titles". They are constructed from insurance writeoffs at a used care auction. They will take 3 Maseratis and construct a "new" one from the pieces and parts. Some unlucky fool will buy one, and it will have lots of problems. Maserati gets blamed for making crappy automobiles.

[@billymania11]

Buy a modern performance car and enjoy it. If you are lucky and have good fortune, it may increase in value. Let already old performance cars go by the wayside. It's a fool's game.

[@wackerburg]

Are you allowed to use copyrighted material ( = full documentary ) from the SWR ???

[@justincase9014]

We'll find out pretty soon.

[@wackerburg]

@@justincase9014 Hehe, good luck. Very interesting story nevertheless 🙂

[@justincase9014]

Thanks dude, i appreciate that

[@mvmallinson]

I left because the ridiculous, annoying, awful music drove me made. Why oh why do you people add it, why?

[@justincase9014]

Thanks for sharing your feedback! I understand that music can be a personal preference, and it doesn’t always resonate with everyone. I aim to enhance the content with background music but will definitely consider balancing it better or reducing its presence in future videos. Your honesty helps me improve!

[@mvmallinson]

@@justincase9014 thank you for your polite reply. Consider…….you go to a seminar, an opening of something etc etc…….there is never some idiot on a piano accompanying the orator, never. If it worked, I promise everyone would add it. The curse of You Tube is this annoying habit of feeling the need to add irritating music as if it adds something, it doesn’t. Your videos will be enhanced by the content, nothing more. I am not alone in finding “music” irritating. I bet if you drop it, nobody will cry out…”where’s the irritating music?” I wish you all the best.

[@justincase9014]

Thank you for your honesty. I’ll definitely take your suggestion into consideration for future videos. Thanks again for taking the time to engage.

[@leonivich]

Why would someone get rid of a vin number, when the other car it was stolen for, is the same car ?

[@justincase9014]

Thanks for the engagement!! Great question! Removing the VIN makes it harder for authorities to identify the car as stolen. That car WAS stolen.

[@emgriffiths9743]

The only legit answer would be if it was stolen and recovered, I had a 911 that was stolen re vinned and recovered, California issued a new VIN and I bought it- I tried to get the original VIN assigned to the car to no avail

[@keithammleter3824]

@@emgriffiths9743 How can a State allocate a VIN? Especially if it is an imported car. Manufacturers allocate VIN's.

[@jamesclark3879]

@@keithammleter3824 Many states allocate VIN numbers when a vehicle has been stolen and it's original VIN tags removed or defaced. My friend has a Cadillac Escalade that was a theft recovery and which he purchased thru the insurance salvage auction. It had the door VIN label and metal dash VIN removed. The state assigned a new vin number after being provided with the auction paperwork, etc. Even though he and the insurance company knew the original VIN, he state would not allow that number to be reused. The only time the original VIN is used is when the dealership has to order parts for the vehicle. In the case of imported cars, many states will assign a VIN or possibly even add digits to come up with a 17 digit VIN number for cars that weren't originally intended for the USA market, and which aren't from the era where cars had less than 17 digits in their VIN/chassis numbers. Also many kit cars have state assigned VIN numbers.

[@justincase9014]

@@keithammleter3824 if the car's original VIN was altered or forged, the state could issue a new VIN after a thorough investigation, but this would depend on verifying the car's provenance and legal ownership. Forging or altering a VIN undermines the vehicle's identity and legal traceability.

[@siyabongangubeni9042]

Where did he get limited edition lookalike cars ?

[@justincase9014]

Klaus Kienle's operation has been under scrutiny because of the resources he had access to as a world-renowned restorer. While the full details are still unfolding, it’s likely that some of the cars in question were created using authentic parts combined with less scrupulous modifications. The alleged manipulation highlights how even experts in the field can blur the line between restoration and replication. Thanks for the question!!

[@africadreamin]

Please don't mention Land Rover, you'll cry.

[@justincase9014]

@africadreamin Haha, 😁you're probably right! Land Rovers have such a love-hate relationship with their fans. They can break your heart, but they also have that charm that keeps pulling you back. What’s your experience with them?

[@africadreamin]

@ Ever heard of the Ag-Rover??

[@justincase9014]

For farming?

[@LB_D]

I know of several racing cars (gt/saloon) who were totaled and afterward the chassis number was removed to be welded in another body. That was "normal" practice in the 60-90's. Sometimes you'll get two cars with the same number, one with the welded serial number and the other restamped. The last one because people thought the original car was destroyed.....

[@justincase9014]

Тhis was a pretty common practice, especially with high-value cars. The combination of frequent crashes and the high stakes of racing meant chassis numbers were sometimes reused or swapped, leading to the 'two cars, one number' issue you mentioned. It definitely complicates the history and authenticity of some cars today. Thanks for adding this!!

[@LB_D]

@@justincase9014 friend of mine had a racing GT. Bought as non running from the importer with title. Stood under a blanket for over 20 years when suddenly an exact copy appeared, with the same title on a German Motorshow.... He had to reclaim his title and prove his car was the original one! The copy appeared later again with a different chassis number.....

[@justincase9014]

It’s crazy how these kinds of situations can happen. Your friend must have had quite the battle to reclaim his title-proving authenticity. Do you know what eventually happened to the copy with the altered chassis number, it should be punishable.

[@LB_D]

@@justincase9014 his was the original factory racing GT with the correct paperwork. There were also converted versions, with factory racing parts. The only big difference was the engine. Factory cars had a Kugelfisher injection. The copy got its original chassisnumber back and became a conversion car.... There are a lot of scams with chassis numbers. In the UK, during the 80's, we were offered complete bulkheads including chassis numbers with papers, from a scrapped aluminium bodied cars....

[@justincase9014]

That’s a wild story- It’s fascinating how chassis number scams have been such a longstanding issue in the car world. It must have been a relief for your friend to see the situation resolved with his car recognized as the original factory model. The details about the Kugelfischer injection and the conversions are really interesting too! Those scrapped aluminum-bodied bulkheads with papers sound like a whole other layer of shadiness. The lengths some will go to in the classic car market are unbelievable!

[@andrewwmacfadyen6958]

Just too many SL300 around. Even genuine classic cars are an unsafe investment the market goes up and down to an extreme degree

[@justincase9014]

That's right, the market for classic cars is unpredictable. Investing in classics is as much about passion as it is about timing and market trends-definitely not for the faint-hearted!

[@ceesklumper]

Kienle, not Kienel

[@justincase9014]

You're absolutely right-my bad! Us Americans sometimes struggle with names, but I'll getting it right. Thanks for pointing it out!

[@TheManFrayBentos]

Not "fakes", they are "ringers".

[@pralhadmundargi6503]

Reminds me of the old 1977 film ( No man's land) where I think stolen Porsche 930 were rebadged and sold new

[@justincase9014]

That's an interesting connection! The concept of rebadging and reselling has a long history and it definitely resonates with the Klaus Kienle story. The Porsche 930 example shows how far some people go in manipulating car histories for profit. Thanks for the engagement!

[@tonychavez2083]

It's a high stakes gamble when buying these old SL's . now everyone will need to be very carefull....

[@justincase9014]

it's definitely a high-stakes game , and the importance of being careful-it’s a point every buyer needs to keep in mind!

[@THESocialJusticeWarrior]

This is what happens when rich people hoard things.

[@waynep343]

In 1984 a 300sl gullwing was getting photos taken next door. When they went to load it backwards into the custom enclosed trailer that also had a gullwing hatch. The guy backing the 300 up the ramps did not have anybody buying him. More was he using the mirrors. He would twist his body and look thru the rear window. Doing this caused him to turn the steering wheel slightly. After 3 or 4 tries he had destroyed all the wheel well eyebrows getting the car going thru the opening at an angle. My boss would not let me stop him. That's none of your business he said. I wonder what happened to that car and who ever was driving it. The things you see in Hollywood ca.. this was just north of pinks hotdogs in the alley.

[@justincase9014]

Wow, what a story! It’s painful just imagining the damage to such a legendary car. Sounds like a perfect storm of carelessness and bad judgment. The fact that your boss wouldn’t let you step in makes it even more frustrating. It’s crazy to think moments like this can happen with such valuable cars. Hollywood truly has its share of wild automotive tales! Thanks for sharing.

[@vsevolodozerov8947]

What is meant by "fake"? Is it in reality a VW transformed with clay and wood into MB? Such things happen when the object is judged not by it's phisycal value and looks, but some crazy ideas. Imagine that numbers on ALL the cars are eliminated, then the cars will judged by their looks and technical charachteristics.

[@justincase9014]

The idea of judging cars purely by their looks and technical merits without considering provenance is interesting, but in the collector world, history and originality often hold significant value. It’s a balance between appreciating a car for what it is and the story behind it. How much originality should matter versus the car’s inherent qualities.

[@vsevolodozerov8947]

@@justincase9014 Yes, the collector world sometimes is very far from reality, never mind what you collect - beer cans or DaVincis. It looks like that the mankind (+womenkind & transkind) is slowly coming to its senses. Thanks for video. MBs were great cars.

[@justincase9014]

Absolutely right-the collector world can sometimes feel detached from the practical value of an item, whether it's cars, art, or anything else. It’s fascinating how societal perspectives on value evolve over time. Glad you enjoyed the video and thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[@MichaelGajdos]

Are those cars working? YES. That is all what matters.

[@justincase9014]

You're absolutely right-at the end of the day, a car that runs and brings joy is what really matters! But for some enthusiasts, the story and originality behind the car add a whole other layer of appreciation........ and big cash!!

[@frankvella6159]

That's why I don't give out my Porsche 911 Vin Number ‼️👎

[@justincase9014]

Not just that, i have never show anyone my "Miura", just for that reason😎

[@RMcG109]

Very disturbing video indeed

[@justincase9014]

Thank you for your comment! It’s unsettling to think about the lengths people might go to with cars valued at $1.2 million. Especially the guy who put the foundation for his daughter. Such a noble move, and the foundation which is helping so much people in need, could go broke, cuz the greediness of some nasty guy.

[@markholroyde9412]

Greed....anyone who deals in or around classic cars know about all the scams.....why dont folk do due diligence?....because they think it wont happen to them,. ANYONE will clone anything if it makes money.....ugh, Low life

[@justincase9014]

Greed can bring out the worst in any industry, and the classic car world is no exception. It’s unfortunate how often scams happen, especially when people skip due diligence. This guy Kienle was doing that for more than 60 years, that's millions!!

[@trevorclarey3336]

A fool & his money are soon parted .

[@sundarAKintelart]

The car manufacturers sell at a price suitable to them. People ADD values to them later. Nobodies to blame here except such fanciful buyers of old cars. People fancy many things old, except old human.

[@jasonwilkinson1854]

NO! This is FRAUD! Telling someone they are buying a 'perfect' car with all original parts, when it isn't. Knowingly selling a car that is not the one they present it be, and the actual car for sale is probably stolen. It is simple to understand, whether you're young or old, honest or dishonest. There is no question about it being wrong to rip-off people and defraud them of their savings for personal benefit. 🙄

[@justincase9014]

That's a strong point, and I completely agree that knowingly misrepresenting a car's history for personal gain is unethical and fraudulent. However, back in the day, especially in racing, the reuse of chassis numbers wasn't always about deception-it was often a practical response to the realities of motorsport. That said, you're right that such practices can create a minefield for modern buyers, and transparency is key. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!

[@jeffhammers5677]

Talk to Seigfried

[@michaelherrmann3423]

this is old.

[@noth606]

The text in parts comes across as autotranslated from German or something like it. Whatever it is, it is NOT English, wrong word order, wrong grammar, wrong "patterns of speech" ie things are expressed in a way that no English speaker would. Also, 'Paepe' isn't pronounced 'Peppe' like it is in the video. Also, there are huge logical inconsistencies with the story as a whole, these "collector circuit famous" clowns either forged the numbers on the cars, or have to prove that they got them as they were from somewhere. It's not complicated. This should logically have gone straight to be police, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Forgery of this type is a crime, it's not some sort of academic debate that should be resolved outside a courtroom the way that I used to swap matchbox cars with the neighbor boy when I was 5yo. "My mom said that when she painted the chip on the fender with nailpolish it became 'as new!' " is not going to fly in that context either, much less here.

[@justincase9014]

Regarding the language, I’ll review the script and narration to ensure that it’s clearer and more natural-sounding in English. If it comes across as "autotranslated" in parts, that’s definitely something I want to fix. Pronunciation is another area I’ll pay closer attention to. As for the logical inconsistencies, you raise some good points. The intent of the video was to present the story as it’s been reported and debated, but I can see where it may have come across as lacking in critical analysis. You’re absolutely right that forgery is a serious legal matter, and I could have better emphasized the legal implications and consequences. I’ll take your comments into account for future videos. Thanks again for sharing your perspective-it helps me improve!

[@andrewgoetz6732]

This happens in Ferrari world also ..

[@justincase9014]

The Ferrari 250 GTO duplicate scandals, chassis number swaps, its comming.Thanks for the engagement!

[@rl7586]

Nothing new, has nothing to do with Mercedes AG

[@justincase9014]

Thanks for your comment! While it might not be new to some, we aim to share stories that spark discussion about automotive history. The connection to Mercedes Benz 300 SL may not be direct here, but it adds a unique perspective to the broader narrative surrounding the classic cars and its legacy.

[@pjs9346]

So how many fakes are out there?

[@justincase9014]

Kienle was busy more than 60 years, so...

[@MichaelGajdos]

Every car haters wet dream.

[@justincase9014]

😆 Mine too!

[@boblevine104]

Crappy narration.

[@justincase9014]

How dare you, that was my best performance!!

[@daseteam]

long-winded

[@justincase9014]

Thank you for your feedback! I'll keep that in mind as I work on refining future videos. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts!

[@iankuah8606]

Oops!