Forgotten Manned Mars Mission Plans

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

January 20 is the anniversary of the release of the Joint Action Group report in 1965. I had no idea, when this was posted, that the President would be talking about Mars in his inaugural address.

[@mrdarklight]

After years of doing these videos, you just have those instincts I guess.

[@Pygar2]

Some more fascinating history that never happened- the Oct. 27 1951 Colliers is set ten years in the future, except the ads. It's a retrospective of the 1955 WWIII, complete with 6 Willie and Joe cartoons not in the collected works!

[@steveshoemaker6347]

🇺🇸

[@stargazer5784]

Trump's rhetoric about going to Mars is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. A lame attempt at pandering to his Musk loving, poorly educated supporters.

[@sproctor1958]

When government gets involved, it invariably leads to... a failure to achieve the mission economically or timely. The exception was the 1960's moon landing program, but once achieved... politics. Hopefully, private industry will be successful on this manned Mars endeavor... and keep government involvement to a minimum.

[@Davenportian]

My mother signed up to travel to Mars -- in the 1930s! She visited the Hayden Planetarium in NYC during school trips and they had a Mars mission sign-up book. We sent her name on one of the NASA missions in her memory.

[@richardrichards8401]

That is so interesting!

[@Destron5683]

That’s cool! I have a “ticket to the moon” that was my dads from Pan Am back in the day lol

[@trojanthedog]

​​@@Destron5683show Elon. He'll probably honour it.

[@victor_silva6142]

This gives me strong Alt-History shivers... 😅

[@meesalikeu]

i send names to nasa mars missions too, but like jimmy buffugger or barry phuqzer. 😂🎉

[@lisashephard2974]

The kid in me appreciated Marvin the Martian on your desk. Thanks for that it brought a smile to my face.😊

[@trumpetmom8924]

“That creature has stolen the Space ModulaTOR!”

[@jon9021]

@@trumpetmom8924😅

[@trevinbeattie4888]

“Oh, drat these computers! They’re so naughty and so complex. I could _pinch_ them!”

[@susanandtimrice5265]

"You're making me very angry. Very angry indeed." Tim

[@adamwishneusky]

“where’s the kaboom?”

[@orbyfan]

The article "Can We Get to Mars?" by Wernher von Braun and Cornelius Ryan was the cover story of the April 30, 1954 issue of Collier's Magazine, and those back issues of Collier's can be found online. I feel great nostalgia for the past visions of the future--the history that never happened that deserves to be remembered.

[@michaelscheel9533]

I had that issue.

[@MordentMordant]

Thanks for this info!

[@davidrahrer]

I've watched your work grow and every one of your videos has been interesting to me. I'm really glad to see you have gained a decent following which can help keep you doing what you love and are so good at. You really are good at this. Keep it up!

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

Thank you! I'm glad you've enjoyed the videos.

[@johngalt2506]

@@TheHistoryGuyChannel I'll second that. I subbed you at about 25k. You never disappoint. Thanks for all the great content!

[@michaelstusiak5902]

I have found interest in topics that I hadn't known even existed.

[@michaelbobic7135]

I agree. I'm a college professor who has worked hard on my pedagogy, and I really appreciate your model. It works really well and I'm sure people can recall key elements from your stories.

[@johngregg5735]

In 1968, the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" was released. In it, Pan Am was running space shuttles to the moon. To capitalize on the movies popularity, Pan Am started a 'First Moon Flights' program where you could sign up on the waiting list for trips to the moon. The program was successful, with over 93,000 people signing up for the trip. A radio personality in NYC signed up for a round trip for himself and a on-way for his boss...

[@michaelscheel9533]

still waiting.

[@wkgmathguy218]

That sounds like something Long John Nebel would do :-)

[@Emdee5632]

Over 93,000 people. What were they thinking? What was Pan Am thinking? That giant passenger rockets would soon grow on trees and that by 1980 everyone would have made at least one trip to the moon and back? As easy as taking a cruise trip to the Bahamas?

[@flyboy152]

@@Emdee5632Basically, yes. 😂

[@jamesolivier5224]

You are my favorite channel to watch. Having grown up a child of the Space Age, this episode brings back some great memories. I'll never forget sitting with my folks and watching that fuzzy, grainy TV image of Neil Armstrong's first step on the moon.

[@robertjensen1438]

Did you hear about the restaurant on Mars? Great food, horrible atmosphere.

[@michaelbobic7135]

That's terrible! My father would have loved it!

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

*BA DUM TSSS...😊*

[@michaelporzio7384]

Your prize for winning the comment section, a lifetime supply of Mars Bars!

[@danmurray1143]

If there were proper penalties for making terrible jokes, you would be on Death Row!

[@tadonplane8265]

On the moon the atmosphere would suck the life out of it. On Venus you wouldn't need an oven.

[@wrightmf]

Old guy here who remembered in 1960s, "we will have men on Mars in 1980s." Then later in 1970s I read, "we will have men on Mars in 1990s." In 1980s when the Shuttle was flying, "we will have men on Mars in 1990s." In 2004 with introduction of VSE outlined return to the moon and humans on Mars in 2020s. Artemis program outlines same as VSE with humans on Mars in 2040s. It's the same meme of a Mars mission will always be 20 years into the future. You described how technology impacts perceived to actual methods on traveling to the moon and the planets. Some years ago I found a website "Rocketpunk" (but now I cannot find it) described itself like Steampunk of futuristic 1950s space technology. The big mention it said in 1950s, e.g. the Collier's magazine article, envisioned hundreds of men for communications, weather, and reconnaissance satellites but that was ruined when NASA figured out how to replace all those men with a few kg of electronics.

[@TimothyLipinski]

Great Comment ! The VSE is the Vision, the Vision for Space Exploration (Presidential speech January 2004) ! Read the book "The Value of the Moon" (c) 2022 by Paul D. Spudis about VSE ! Timothy Lipinski

[@wrightmf]

@@TimothyLipinski Yes, I read the book. What stood out for me is when Spudis wrote in one of the committee meetings they were discussing lunar exit strategy when nobody had yet to figure out how we were going to go back the moon. And I see that same game plan will kill Artemis program as well. I have yet to read a sentence about going to the moon without the word "Mars."

[@amentco8445]

The biggest shame is thinking we can replace exploration by people with glorified computers.

[@davidszacik2326]

Marvin the Martian is a great touch!

[@edwindeas9457]

Great video! I too remember NASA’s c.1969 study-plan “Post-Apollo”. It was easy to believe that we would see the proposed c.1982 Manned Mars Landing become reality & that “2001” would become our space-exploration future.

[@russellharrell2747]

Apollo had a hell of a budget, which was slashed even before the first lander set foot in regolith. The proposed plans were ambitious and achievable with that budget or small increase. The reusable shuttle to build and service the LEO space station to support a proposed moon base also gave necessary infrastructure to support manned mars missions. Landing on mars by 1989 would have been possible, but more realistic if that date was pushed back to the mid to late 90s. The greatest loss was the abandonment of the improved and evolved Saturn V launch vehicle, which we only today replicating with multiple huge rocket architectures publicly and privately. Instead the budget was slashed, with only the reusable shuttle getting the go ahead and the DOD requiring a huge upscale in the vehicle size to accommodate their missions. Instead of a small shuttle that was primarily intended to transport crews and resupply to a space station, we had a monster rocket plane with a compromised launch configuration that had to serve as launch vehicle and space lab in place of a permanent manned station.

[@Nicksonian]

The United States spent about four times as much on the Vietnam war as it did on the Apollo program. Just imagine if we’d spent that money on sending humans to Mars. A few may have died, maybe not. Far better than losing 50,000 Americans in a useless war.

[@ngauruhoezodiac3143]

At least in Vietnam there was a better than 90% chance of surviving. On a manned mission to Mars it would be 40% at best. There are too many things that can go wrong on a 5 year mission.

[@amentco8445]

​@@ngauruhoezodiac3143So too was colonizing the new world. A lot more people died just on ships across the ocean than ever would from early missions across the solar system. It is worth the risk. A bunch of people dying in war is not.

[@ashleighelizabeth5916]

The sad thing is that even without that stupid war they were never going to spend that money on NASA or on helping the regular people in this country.

[@russellharrell2747]

@@ngauruhoezodiac3143sending folks to mars won’t lead to deforestation of entire nations or millions of peoples killed or displaced in a proxy war between two super powers. I’d gladly sign up for a better than even chance of making it to mars, and many other people would as well. Of course I’d love for a more robust interplanetary transport scheme with multiple redundancies and abort scenarios (Phobos station, orbital mars station, multiple landing sites prepared by automated or remote controlled automata). A robust cis lunar space infrastructure would be appreciated as well to fully support any mars operations.

[@ngauruhoezodiac3143]

@russellharrell2747 Do your research. Even in the 60s it was recognised that conventional rockets are not up to the job. What is needed is ionic propulsion using fusion reactors.

[@runlarryrun77]

I think it was just prior to this that Freeman Dyson was experimenting with Project Orion or "To Mars With A-Bombs concept. That's also a very intriguing story & well worth a video of it's own.

[@collguyjoe99]

The Orion Project, or more so the Pusher Plate idea was physically tested by NASA/Air Force and Coke built a proto-type convener system for the nukes.

[@runlarryrun77]

@@collguyjoe99 Yes, I've seen the test footage of the devices that tested the concept, quite remarkable stuff. As I understand it the reasons for discontinuation were threefold. Dyson felt the radiation release was unacceptable, he also felt that small, relatively simple atomic devices were too much of a geopolitical risk, & the atmospheric test ban treaty was looming. Still, it was a remarkable concept & learning about it was a wonderful way to be introduced to Freeman Dyson & his works.

[@janus1958]

Orion met it's fate with the treaty that forbid the use of Nuclear weapons in space. They were working on NERVA engines, which was a bit more of a conventional nuclear rocket, and had prototypes, but funding for this research was ended by the budget cuts of the 70's.

[@rickgilbrt]

In 9th grade in 1968, I had to do a career study paper. I chose aerospace engineering - I wanted to work on space travel. By the time I graduated high school 4 years later, AE grads were looking at a rapidly declining job market, and I pursued chemical engineering instead. Had a fun career, but wish we had not been hamstrung by Viet Nam and could have continued to pursue Mars after Apollo.

[@seeingeyegod]

it's pretty tragic in that respect.

[@ashleighelizabeth5916]

When I was growing up in the late 70s/early 80s I wrote a number of papers for school using my grandparent's encyclopedia set that had been printed around 1965. I also used to read through them on favorite subjects as well and devoured the sections on NASA and space flight several times. At that time not only did they have a diagram showing the planned (at the time of publishing) moon landings in some detail but a similar diagram showing a concept for a Mars manned mission as well. There were even plans shown for a hypothetical ship with crew quarters, engines and the like. Clearly at that time a lot of people expected us to eventually make it to the moon and to do so before today (2025).

[@herbert92x]

A neighbor was part of the NASA group that made the decision to put a manned mission to mars on the back burner. As he told it, there were three factors: 1) cost. 2) technology - robots had improved to the point where they could do the work. 3) risk - he described the Apollo program as ‘rushed’ and that 20 years of experience in low earth orbit with the shuttle would pay dividends. The guy is now in his 90s and thinks he will live to see a manned mission - we’re ‘that’ close.

[@Nicksonian]

I grew up with the space program. In elementary school in the 1960s, we watched fascinating videos produced by Walt Disney (3:15). We learned of the moon bases that would certainly be operational by the time we had children in school. Ha…ha. I like the photo of Wernher von Braun (2:27) standing next to the Saturn V’s enormous F-1 engines. A highlight of my life was to visit Cape Canaveral and see the entire Saturn V on display. It was awe inspiring. Thank you History Guy for educating me on these forgotten Mars mission plans.

[@crispincain5373]

Thank you History Guy, you are the best

[@billdescoteaux]

It is sad how now that we are on the threshold of the second quarter of the 21st Century that we've been stagnant with manned space missions to the moon or Mars since the end of the third quarter of the last century! Man never went beyond the orbiting space stations in the final quarter of the 20th Century or the first quarter of the 21st Century. The missions of the Space Race of the 1960s and 1970s should not have been in vain.

[@Saintkate457-n8o]

Hi Bill👋 Good afternoon.🌹🌹🌹I hope my comment didn't sound as a form of privacy invasion your comment tells of a wonderful woman with a beautiful heart which led me to comment I don't normally write in the comment section but I think you deserve this complement. If you don’t mind can we be friends? Thanks God bless you….🌺🌺🌺

[@apollofell3925]

On the one hand, I'd love to see humanity take a step onto Mars, what an accomplishment. On the other hand, the resources involved, the human genius you have to apply to a problem like Mars... SHOULD be spent elsewhere. "A man walked on the moon today, but my children are too hungry to care."

[@amentco8445]

​@@apollofell3925Some problems are not entirely solvable. You might as well waste billions trying to solve death. Oh wait, we do that.

[@apollofell3925]

@@amentco8445 It is literally possible to end hunger (outside of say some uncontacted tribes). We have more than enough land and produce more than enough food. We just don't because it's not profitable.

[@ernmalleyscrub]

Great information thanks

[@jd-vz8cn]

I would love to see a follow up talking about the soviet mars mission, or the follow up NASA ones. Great video as always. ❤

[@NateHotshot]

Thank you for helping us remember history :)

[@AlbertArmstrong-o2x]

I recall, following the 1969 moon landing, Vice President Spiro Agnew proposed, in a speech, that the u.s. set a goal of a manned landing on Mars by 1980.

[@RideAcrossTheRiver]

"Spiro came to make a speech about raisin' a Mars Tax." -- John Fogerty, "It Came Out of the Sky"

[@hagerty1952]

Loved Marvin there in the lower right during your conclusion!

[@juliancrooks3031]

The technology we lost by not continuing the push forward in space has cost us dearly as nobody is around that knows how to build new F1 rocket engines that were used on Saturn. Nobody can build as powerful engine anymore.

[@AHLUser]

When I was in Jr High School in the 70's I told my Counselor that I wanted to design Houses for the Moon & Mars..!! He said that was "Not a Career" and told me I should be a Mechanical Engineer and design cars... In Flint, you had a choice... Build'em or Engineer'em...!! Now somebody else is designing houses for the Moon & Mars... Back then, they didn't say things like "You can be ANYTHING you want to become"...!! or "Live Your Dream"... it was a 'White Collar or Blue Collar' world...

[@Jesse-cw5pv]

To be fair no one is actually making a career off designing houses for Mars and the moon... yet

[@ngauruhoezodiac3143]

Those who are designing houses for Mars are wasting their time.

[@bongscott3738]

Blah blah blah. ​@@ngauruhoezodiac3143

[@CommonContentArchive]

I heard that kind of thing too. I hated cars/automotive engineering so much as a kid that it turned me off of engineering completely. I would've given up if it hadn't been for some great factory tours, which sparked an interest in robotics/automation

[@ngauruhoezodiac3143]

@CommonContentArchive That is a profitable industry. Muskrat's space fantasies are not.

[@spydude38]

"No bucks, no Buck Rogers."

[@skyden24195]

Then you get, "Duck Dodgers, in the 24th & 1/2 Century!"

[@RideAcrossTheRiver]

We want a window!

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

Great video, THG...👍

[@1KJRoberts]

Hey, History Guy, I was thinking, an episode of the, 'History Of Precision' would be interesting. The cold snap got me thinking, 'how did we arrive at the standards for temperature and how accurate is that data?' Yep, it's a numbers game and that too, might be an episode. And your hometown was mighty nippy today.

[@TimHunold]

That would be fascinating and a nine thousand part series 😅 gauge blocks make me head spin

[@Saintkate457-n8o]

Hi Kevin👋 Good afternoon.🌹🌹🌹I hope my comment didn't sound as a form of privacy invasion your comment tells of a wonderful woman with a beautiful heart which led me to comment I don't normally write in the comment section but I think you deserve this complement. If you don’t mind can we be friends? Thanks God bless you….🌺🌺🌺

[@1KJRoberts]

@ WTF?! Go away!

[@CommonContentArchive]

@@1KJRoberts It's a bot/scammer. Best to report it

[@tessat338]

I remember sitting in an elementary school classroom in about 1974 listening to a parent who worked for NASA, telling us that we would start to see missions to Mars in the 1980s and that women would be in the crews.

[@CommonContentArchive]

They had it half right. Sally Ride joined NASA in '78, first US woman in space '83

[@cateclism316]

Shortly after the first moon landing, I was in grade school, and I recall seeing a magazine with a futuristic spaceship on the cover. The title of the issue was "What's Next?" It was about a future mission to Mars.

[@mydogbrian4814]

- Three forgot thimgs happened in the early 1960"s that dramaticly altered maned space flight history. 1 - *von Braun* never cared about the moon except as a testing of Mars capable direct assent & landing of a 5 stage *NOVA* class rocket. 2 - *Kennedy* set a time constraint on the man to the moon project. 3 - The factory building the First stage was not big enough to build a 8 engin F-1 engin NOVA booster. A cluster of 5 engines was tops. And the short Kennedy deadline did not allow for the building of a new larger plant. 3 - So *NOVA* was canceled. And a smaller *LEM* version Saturn-5 that could still do the job was built. - If the *NOVA* class was built von Braun could have then sent an 80 ton payload to Mars. Such as a large *Sky Lab* type Mars orbiting temporary Space station by 1975. This would be followed by a 2nd Sky Lab manned mission in *1976* for docking with the first. All that instead of the *2 Viking* landers that did land on Mars to celebrate the USA's 200 year anniversary! - So we could have been on Mars 50 years ago if not for the size of a rocket building plant.

[@amentco8445]

yep, that's politics.

[@kevinlindstrom6752]

Great stuff, thanks for another dive into history worth remembering.

[@boathemian7694]

Hey I knew they guy standing next to WVB with the glasses, his name was George Mueller and was a really interesting person. He went on to help pioneer reusable launch vehicles and other things. RIP George.

[@stevepeyton9073]

Having Marvin on your desk was perfect

[@zanpsimer7685]

Human vision, ingenuity and curiosity will take us to Mars and beyond eventually. It’s in our nature to explore.

[@robgrey6183]

It will also require a lot of money extracted from hard working Americans.

[@zanpsimer7685]

@ well, yeah. So?

[@robgrey6183]

@@zanpsimer7685 So? So, I need MY money for MY family. Rob someone else.

[@frankgulla2335]

Dear THG, thanks for reminding us to dream about a great future, even if our dreams of finding canals full of water and warring martian societies died decade ago.

[@ricksaint2000]

Thank you History Guy

[@anthonymcmahon5044]

My grandfather worked on this project while at NASA while also working on Apollo. He told me stories of placing men in trailers supine for 30 days at a time to measure the physiological changes in their bodies. My understanding was that the Mars project was cancelled in favor of the Shuttle program.

[@keithparker6520]

The 1969 plan shown at 13:15 has always been on my mind every day since. And every day I feel sad we didn’t land humans on Mars in the 1980s. Hopefully we manage it in my lifetime.

[@stevetaylor9926]

Greetings from Australia. I’m currently building a 1/144 scale model what if project that I call “the 1989 manned mars fly-by”. It is basically a Skylab module attached to a Space Shuttle along with other modified Saturn V & Space Shuttle components. I chose the 1989 time frame as being symbolically 20 years after Apollo 11 (assuming a Kennedy like inspiration in place) I’m using Revell kits of the Saturn V and Space Shuttle as a basis. It’s a bit of a tricky build but fun. Cheers

[@CantankerousDave]

There was a TV series in 1959-1960 called Men Into Space that was about the development of the tech needed for a manned Mars mission. It was fairly hard sci-fi based on what was known at the time.

[@michaelscheel9533]

last episode was a flight to Mars that was aborted. It was supposed to the first episode of the second season which never happened.

[@JoesWebPresence]

Oh my! Is that an Illudium Q-36 space de-modulator?

[@socoman99]

"Bugs Bunny to Earth, Bugs Bunny to Earth..."

[@skyden24195]

"Oh the Earth? The Earth will be gone in just a few seconds... I'm going to blow it up. It obscures my view of Venus."

[@michaelscheel9533]

Von Braun's novel was published by Apogee Books back around 2005. Apogee published a lot of books about Space related including Mission Reports. They include CD or DVDs of files or flight films.

[@Saintkate457-n8o]

Hi Michael👋 Good afternoon.🌹🌹🌹I hope my comment didn't sound as a form of privacy invasion your comment tells of a wonderful woman with a beautiful heart which led me to comment I don't normally write in the comment section but I think you deserve this complement. If you don’t mind can we be friends? Thanks God bless you….🌺🌺🌺

[@BasicDrumming]

I appreciate you and thank you for making content.

[@shawnr771]

Thank you for the lesson.

[@finding_mojo]

Yes very true, Werner Von Braun had his eye on Mars. I came across this when researching my alternate sci fi story (The Winged Serpent of Time) on this very subject! I'd be happy to provide a free copy to the History Guy channel if you like. 😃

[@cardboardempire]

Not to mention all the missions to Venus. Interesting stuff.

[@markleyg]

Imagine how far humanity would now be if we had chosen science and exploration over war.

[@casualcadaver]

There would literally be no rockets if it wasn’t for war though?

[@markleyg]

@casualcadaver You think man's quest for advancement is only based on war?

[@casualcadaver]

@@markleyg No of course not but we wouldn’t be anywhere near as scientifically advanced if it were not for war. Just look at world war 2. It started with propeller planes ,motors and people doing calulcations on paper with a pencil, by the end of the war there was a nation literally in space, atomic bombs, jet fighters, night vision systems and sophisticated computers.

[@jimcabezola3051]

Yes, the "Project Mars" novel was...um...interesting. The science articles and math equations in the back are fascinating, though. I tried to "translate" those equations into something my spreadsheet programme could work with. Fun stuff!

[@Saintkate457-n8o]

Hi Jim👋 Good afternoon.🌹🌹🌹I hope my comment didn't sound as a form of privacy invasion your comment tells of a wonderful woman with a beautiful heart which led me to comment I don't normally write in the comment section but I think you deserve this complement. If you don’t mind can we be friends? Thanks God bless you….🌺🌺🌺

[@davidchamlee2058]

The Space Agency originally planned for a Marathon with the Space Missions. Government insisted on Sprinting. Sprinting in the middle of a race, means you will exhaust your endurance before reaching the Finish Line. A classic lesson known by all Marathon Runners, that the Short sighted still haven't learned. Without the Sprint we would already be on the Moon, and Mars, and in Dozens of working Space Stations

[@Saintkate457-n8o]

Hi David👋 Good afternoon.🌹🌹🌹I hope my comment didn't sound as a form of privacy invasion your comment tells of a wonderful woman with a beautiful heart which led me to comment I don't normally write in the comment section but I think you deserve this complement. If you don’t mind can we be friends? Thanks God bless you….🌺🌺🌺

[@russellharrell2747]

The government is run by businessmen, and businessmen always look at the short term. Thru only care about the long term when amortizing costs, which is perfectly in line with obtaining those short term growth goals.

[@lisamoore6804]

That first video of Mars at 0:47 made me think of The Expanse.

[@GeneCash]

When I was a kid (mid-'70s) there were reams of posters of NASA mission plans - space stations, Mars missions, Moon bases, advanced post-Saturn-V boosters, nuclear-powered ships, outer planets probes, hundreds of shuttle designs, etc available either from NASA (there was a catalog) or just regular poster companies. I certainly had a couple dozen on my walls. I really miss the NASA That Might Have Been.

[@SamBrownBaudot]

Regarding manned missions to Mars, it's also worth looking at Project Orion. The founders of Project Orion proposed not only missions to Mars, but to the moons of Jupiter and beyond, and in their own lifetimes. What was their secret sauce? A different sort of nuclear propulsion. Instead of the drive you mention here, Orion would have used small thermonuclear bombs, and absorbed the force of their blast in a spring-mounted "pusher plate", so that the craft wasn't hit too hard by the shock. Essentially, the craft would be pushed along by a series of small nuclear bombs thrown out the back. The idea of "nuclear pulse propulsion" was first put forward by master mathematician Stanislaw Ulam, who had in mind that it would never be used with manned craft. He started by imagining how a a saucer left over a nuclear blast might be flung, and pointed out that it would be an efficient way of propelling things into space. But the people who fell in love with his idea wanted to fly on the craft themselves. It was possible, but the craft would need to be huge. A small craft would be accelerated too much by even the smallest nuclear "pulse module" they could create, killing the crew with the g-forces of acceleration. Unlike all other spacecraft, where every pound is precious and expensive, the Orion craft needed to have at LEAST the mass of a skyscraper to allow the crew to survive the shock of acceleration. Von Braun saw early proposals for the project, and commented favorably on them. The project was ultimately killed for two un-assailable political reasons. First, the project had been started under military sponsorship, before NASA was founded. In the early days of the Space Race, the Army and the Air Force each had their own rocketry divisions, and were squabbling over which branch would be responsible for space rocketry. Project Orion was under the Air Force. NASA was founded, in an attempt (among other things) to end the military infighting over who would control space by handing it over to a civilian agency. The Army was quicker to hand over their projects to NASA, while the Air Force resisted giving up their bid to control space exploration. When the Air Force finally gave in and surrendered their space projects to NASA, it was the first nail in Orion's coffin. NASA already had a nuclear drive proposal, the one that came from the Army. It had been continuing under NASA oversight for years at that point. NASA didn't need two nuclear drive departments. The Project Orion engineers were now on the back foot, trying to justify why their proposal was different enough and more practical. But while the math actually did show that their proposal had numerous advantages, it had the second fatal flaw: The craft had a minimum size, to allow the crew to survive the g-shock of the pulse units. The NASA administrator who was in charge of killing Project Orion correctly pointed out that there was no way to test Orion at a smaller, safer scale. Short of building a massive craft and hoping that everything just worked on the first try, it could never be constructed. For a craft that was designed to carry 2,000 small atomic bombs as its fuel, that was a non-starter. The Project Orion engineers tried to re-write the proposal as a smaller craft that was flown into orbit by conventional, chemical rockets, and assembled there. But that final re-write of the grand vision of Project Orion wasn't enough. The Project was cancelled. The history of the project was written decades later by George Dyson, son of Freeman Dyson, who was one of the project heads. If you can spare 9 minutes for George's Ted Talk on the project, it's worth the watch. His book on Project Orion is hard to come by: It only got one printing before several of the diagrams in it were returned to classified status, and so it was never reprinted. I got it on inter-library loan and would recommend anyone interested try the same. The BBC also made an hour long documentary on the project, "To Mars By A-Bomb".

[@paperburn]

Side note : How we got the Davey Crockett atomic bomb was from development for the Orion.

[@bernardopaul7861]

Gee, thanks for mentioning Orion. I happen to own one of the copies of the book, without knowing how precious it was. I've read it twice and it's fascinating: it really puts what the likes of Spacex are doing into perspective, in the sense that right now we've got great engineering but the Orion people were thinking entirely out-of-the-box and that's what's lacking right now. I mean, Starship is really impressive and surely will get to mars eventually, but it's still just a rocket. Something like Orion would really kickstart "long haul" space travel.

[@SamBrownBaudot]

@@bernardopaul7861 Oh, Orion is absolutely AMAZING. You've read the book, right? For anyone who hasn't their bigger plans would have scaled up to sending an entire city to the moons of Jupiter. And they even ran the math for what it would take to get to Alpha Centauri. There is, however, the small issue of fallout. When they were planning Orion, they were estimating cancer deaths per launch at 1 or 2, from increased radiation in the atmosphere. We now know that fallout is more than 10X as deadly as they thought it was.

[@zabdas83]

Its a unique a special kinda Historian that rocks the 'Dickie bow tie' and looks good doing it!

[@exodusofficer]

Project Orion is another great part of space history that never happened, using nuclear pulse propulsion. A lot of the Manhattan Project people were involved. Their motto was "Saturn by 1970!" for a while. A meters-long model was built, along with several small prototypes for pulse propulsion that basically used grenades to fly. It would make a great video!

[@markh.6687]

I believe it was then-McDonnell Douglas that prepared a "Project Demios" manned Mars mission proposal as well. I recall seeing it in a book printed between the 1970's and 1980's, but do not remember the book title.

[@evensgrey]

I recall once hearing the following statement: Apollo missions had a crew of hundreds, but we only sent the bridge into space.

[@spaceshot5289]

Thank you for doing shows on space flight history please do more

[@bloqk16]

I recall during the Apollo program of the late 1960s there were some TV talking heads (US) that commented on the exotic looking artist renderings of manned-spacecraft destined for Mars; where it was assumed such a trek (pun intended) would take place in the 1980s.

[@richardmourdock2719]

I grew up during the height of the manned space program. Apollo XI happened six weeks after I graduated from high school. Because of the space program I became a science geek and now look back fondly from retirement of my work as a geologist. And yet, strangely, now I wonder what the entire space program proved other than man (and America's) creativity. We have never found any indication of a mineral or "energy source" on another planet and the mining of planets would never justify the costs. Going to the moon was great as "a space race" but I wish the dollars today were being utilized to better prepare mankind of the decades ahead on this one planet we inhabit.

[@sanitarium017]

Technology developed for space does help the planet we inhabit. It also helps the economy. Also, Nasa's budget is around 4 billion d Dollars. Our military budget is over 800 billion! Why dont you consider we take a slice out that instread?

[@skyden24195]

In regard to how NASA pronounces "Gemini" as 'Jeh-mih-nee' as opposed to 'Jeh-mih-neye,' I've always found it humorous that this tid-bit of trivia is subtlety expressed in the Tom Hanks written, directed, and co-starred film, "That Thing You Do." The NASA pronunciation occurs during a brief scene when real-life NASA astronaut Virgil 'Gus' Grissom (played by Bryan Cranston in the film) makes an appearance on the fictional "Hollywood Showcase" television show in which the show's host asks of Grissom about his experience in the "Gemini" program, but utilizing the common, astrological pronunciation. In answering the question, Grissom immediately responds with "That's right, it will be called the Gemini," but, of course, using and emphasizing the NASA pronunciation of 'Gemini." 😄

[@steves427]

Fascinating video. Seem to remember reading as 10 year or so, in 1970 ish, a NASA proposal to send a pair of manned ion or possibly nuclear spaceships to Mars in & around 1986/1987, which has always captured my imagination. Are you aware of such a proposal? It must have been an article in a magazine because I'm sure that NASA's 1970's "Skylab" & "Pioneer 1& 2" "Grand Tours" programmes were also mentioned.

[@hughbarton5743]

A really outstanding video! I am 70, and had really one single ambition I couldn't achieve: I desperately dreamed of being an astronaut!!! (minor health issues prevented it.....) Thank you for the reminder!!!!! Be well, all.

[@kevinderrick2787]

I knew nothing of this. Thanks THG.

[@Manco65]

They're currently in storage but my encyclopedia set has something in one of the space or aeronautics related to articles a planned mission to Mars and they came out in the late sixties and early seventies IIRC

[@gunnarkvinlaug7226]

Apollo tech could probably send men to orbit Mars, but the Lunarlander would not be able to land.

[@General_Confusion]

We know there is life on Mars, no one other than Martians would have wanted to abduct my ex mother-in-law.

[@Bull-cat741]

😂😂😂

[@MisterOceanCity]

I was a host for an aerospace convention back in 2016. It was a four-day event at national Harbor to south of Washington dc. I'll try to get to the point, one day they had the person from NASA's manned space program speaking. And it's roughly scheduled to occur around 2026 2028. After 2030 that's when a Mars mission is expected to happen. One of the things they are working on is a new rocket call the sls. The point they were making at this speaking engagement was that during the race to the moon in the 1960s, they had to use the Saturn 5 rocket because it's the best thing they had. But now that they have time they are making a launch vehicle that is strong enough to not need to use the moon to slingshot the vehicle to mars. So they can be more launches per year.

[@robgrey6183]

How much? Who pays?

[@charlesachurch7265]

Fascinating presentation thanks xxx

[@BenjySparky]

THG, you rock! Peace

[@mucro849]

The 1960s were a great decade for space travel, space technology equipped at an enormous pace.

[@Astroponicist]

Thank you for this.

[@MrSatyre1]

"...small step for A man" Neil always maintained that's what he said, and analysis of the recording agrees.

[@RideAcrossTheRiver]

It was his clipped Ohio accent: "f'r'a'man ..."

[@boblong449]

A video on operation paperclip would be 🔥 🔥🔥

[@michaelporzio7384]

Advances in computer and propulsion technology made manned space flight for the purpose of science a non-starter. Since Apollo, unmanned spacecraft have explored Saturn, Jupiter, the Asteroid Belt, Venus, Mercury and the Sun itself. Today we have spacecraft orbiting Jupiter, sampling asteroids and roving around Mars, etc. The only results of the Apollo Applications program were Skylab and the US Soviet Joint Space Flight.

[@Saintkate457-n8o]

Hi Michael👋 Good afternoon.🌹🌹🌹I hope my comment didn't sound as a form of privacy invasion your comment tells of a wonderful woman with a beautiful heart which led me to comment I don't normally write in the comment section but I think you deserve this complement. If you don’t mind can we be friends? Thanks God bless you….🌺🌺🌺

[@garethmurtagh2814]

Stephen Baxter’s novel Voyage is based on the US adopting a Mars project as a successor to Apollo, it’s based on the actual studies that were done and it’s very good. SPOILERS In order to fund a single Mars landing in 1986, Apollo’s 15-17, the Shuttle, Hubble and every planetary probe mission of the 70’s and 80’s get shitcanned.

[@RodgerDodger196]

I like that Marv The Martian figure😃 What store you find him at??!😆 GREAT HISTORY SHOW YOU HAVE I SHARE STORIES TO MY FAMILY THEY THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE & you’ve got TONS!!

[@eeeman]

We're going to Mars baby!

[@robertdragoff6909]

When I saw that part of the proposal would include nuclear energy all I can think of was the test ban treaty and forbade nuclear energy in space…… There might not be a direct NASA connection but Space X is planning a mission to Mars after colonizing the moon and using it as the launch pad for Mars. Hopefully that history will happen,

[@codymoe4986]

Colonizing the Moon? They may want to actually reach the thing first...Starship was supposed to land astronauts there, this year. Egon and SpaceX can't even get a man-rated one into LEO...

[@paperburn]

I was told a long time ago we would not go to mars until we fully understood and developed the technology we made to go to the moon.

[@lancewilliams4190]

What would the msrtian dpactaft look loke, how much space on board and would it have had artificial gravity?

[@halon7476]

Hopefully it won't end up like the movie "Capricorn One".

[@grandaddyoe1434]

Great movie !

[@RideAcrossTheRiver]

Millions have telescopes and even private radiotelescopes.

[@eottoe2001]

The Lockheed study spacecraft at 9 min and 18 seconds tank configuration might be a way to shield astronauts from solar and cosmic radiation safely. I wonder if that was intended in the design.

[@alphakky]

How about the Apollo Venus fly by? It was to be a one year mission. Fascinating plan.

[@JohnSmith-zw8vp]

Do you know about the proposed Mars Excursion Module and its mission profile that was in World Book Encyclopedia back in the 70s? I want to know no more about that.

[@berthalloway8182]

My Grandma has a post mark that says hand stamped on the moon. With the name of the one who stamped it. Don’t remember which one stamped it

[@Saintkate457-n8o]

Hi Bert👋 Good afternoon.🌹🌹🌹I hope my comment didn't sound as a form of privacy invasion your comment tells of a wonderful woman with a beautiful heart which led me to comment I don't normally write in the comment section but I think you deserve this complement. If you don’t mind can we be friends? Thanks God bless you….🌺🌺🌺

[@bronwynecg]

Good morning, professor! 👋🏽 😊

[@nstooge]

I’m glad to see Marvin was there to represent for Mars…

[@brianlapham6515]

One of the pics you show is of the Apollo 15 CSM Endeavor with an open panel on the outside of the service module while in lunar orbit. Any ideas as to why this was? I've never seen that image before. The only other "exposed" service module images I had seen were Apollo 13 images in earth orbit just before splashdown. Thanks!

[@JesseOaks-ef9xn]

I am wondering about the manned mission to the moon. I know that a fly by is planned and then an actual landing a year later.

[@robgrey6183]

Yeah, that will add a few trillion to our runaway national debt.

[@amentco8445]

​@@robgrey6183take it from the military.

[@stevencooper2464]

It's probably just as well that we don't send a man to Mars; Marvin might use his U231 Space Modulator on us.🤣

[@muznick]

Could you expound on the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator?

[@paulforester6996]

I have an old book talking about nuclear rockets and the difference between the Apollo spacecraft and this new tech in 1969 with missions to Mars and the moon.

[@MB-nn3jw]

Growing up and reading about our then space exploration progress, I envisioned by this time we would have colonies in space - a moon base, an orbiting (large) habited space station and likely some form of colony on Mars. I suppose this is what happens when wars get in the way of progress.

[@4362mont]

Walt Disney sighted! Another good video. I hope further generations can understand that space is real & earnest.

[@robgrey6183]

And expensive.

[@4362mont]

@robgrey6183 Yeah, let's just pihhyback off of China's space ptog... OH WAIT....

[@MordentMordant]

A Walt Disney sighting: von Braun worked with Disney to make three films about space exploration in the 1950s.

[@drafterdb]

We gave up on manned missions after Tim Robbins died by pulling off his own helmet while in orbit. We are scared for life.

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

Good movie.

[@Saintkate457-n8o]

Hi Drafterdb 👋 Good afternoon.🌹🌹🌹I hope my comment didn't sound as a form of privacy invasion your comment tells of a wonderful woman with a beautiful heart which led me to comment I don't normally write in the comment section but I think you deserve this complement. If you don’t mind can we be friends? Thanks God bless you….🌺🌺🌺

[@richhall1808]

You guys should check out Dark Journalist

[@Beyond_the_Stars68]

"Absolutely fascinating to revisit these forgotten plans for manned Mars missions! 🌌🚀 It’s incredible to see how far space exploration ideas have come. Will these concepts inspire future missions to the Red Planet? 🔴✨"