Orvill Robinson's Innovative Rifles

[@thetruthexperiment]

Someone should 3D print Ian some dummy cartridges for each episode. I would definitely appreciate seeing how cartridges move in the action. It’s really an incomplete mechanism without them.

[@northwilliams389]

Agreed.

[@johnmcclain3887]

I would be inclined to manufacture dummy cartridges in a conventional way, I suspect there is ample fodder that could be developed to exactly fit these rifles. I fully agree with your "incomplete" statement.

[@brians9182]

That would be fckin awesome!

[@mikedunn7795]

@@brians9182 I admit I have trouble understanding the operating mechanism in many of the guns Ian features,and a dummy cartridge would help a lot,but the Robertson 1872 was plain as day to me. Talk about an elegant and sleek mechanism,even without a dummy cartridge!

[@brians9182]

@@mikedunn7795 I'm not naysaying anything

[@PhantomSavage]

These are truly the product of an artist and an mechanical genius. These rifles, for its time period, had insane potential, and their mechanisms and the thoughts put into them were really ahead of their time... but interestingly they weren't designed by a firearms designer, just a creative genius. The guy had no intentions of being a major weapons designer, its just some ideas he had and thought he could profit off of it, and when Winchester came knocking to buy him out, he took it and moved on to making VIOLINS. What an incredibly gifted and unique individual in history.

[@nmarbletoe8210]

I wonder if any of his violins are extant

[@THEfamouspolka]

The mechanical wizardry of the 1800's never ceases to amaze and captivate my mind!

[@owenmckee4053]

And here's to you, Orvill Robinson

[@28afterburner]

Ian loves you more than you will know, whoah-oah-oah!

[@Pynaegan]

+Martin Colbert Click, click, Ka-BOOM Orvill Robinson...Winchester will offer lots of dough....Whoah-oah-oah.....whoah-oah-oah!

[@joelruder2857]

What was the calibers?

[@jackandersen1262]

Joel Ruder a link that I found to the original lot suggests that it is .44 Henry rimfire. www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/1147-391/

[@IReallyLikeTreessmileyface]

sounds an awful lot like a AJJ reference

[@redbyrd64]

The elevator reminds me of a bolt action .22 that my dad had when I was a kid. It had a box magazine where you could slide the feed lips. This allowed it to fire .22 short, .22 long, and .22 long rifle.

[@Nerdnumberone]

They're perfectly functional, but I think the Winchester lever-action would be less awkward to cycle than a mechanism on top of the rifle, especially if you need to cock it and cycle it separately. The adjustable cartridge length and locking mechanism had promise, and might have allowed more powerful cartridges than the early Winchesters, however.

[@wierdalien1]

It's almost like you didn't actually listen to what he said, but ok. And no, the limiting factor for the Henry pattern Winchesters was not the elevator.

[@Mrgunsngear]

That's an awesome operating system.

[@amazoniancustodian]

“bUt WiLl It RuN dOoM ? “

[@csm5040]

@@amazoniancustodian Doom runs IT

[@EchosTackyTiki]

Beats the shit out of Linux, that's for sure.

[@prowokator]

look like they were built by an artist rather than a mechanic, very well thought lines, and the later version has an early functionalism vibe to it. pretty weapons.

[@FantadiRienzo]

Both are absolutely incredibly creative. So an early Mannlicher and an early Luger/Borchardt-action. That guy must have been a genius. I googled his name and found out: he never designed any guns again, instead he made.... VIOLINS. It's crazy how multi-talented many of the best gun designers were. Mannlicher worked as an engineer for a rayway company. He then basically invented a railsystem to load a rifle. Others made watches, sewing machines, cars, drilling machines... Geniuses.

[@burakbayrakc1020]

Well the toggle link action wasn't his idea but yeah

[@johnmcclain3887]

The technology of the 19th century has driven every bit of my own mechanical and electronics work for fifty years. As a teen, I'd hoped to make new inventions, but at 65, I've only explored what took place long before I was born.

[@k.a.davison9897]

Robinson was obviously an early engineering genius. Firearms, wagon wheels and violins! Thomas Edison would have been jealous. I can only wonder what else Robinson may have created with his extraordinary talents that we will never know of. A truly unique and interesting video. Thank you.

[@coreymerrill3257]

Very cool to see some local history. Being a Plattsburgh resident who is a gunsmith,gunlover extraordinaire and shooter(with a hunting camp not far from lake placid) i loved seeing these rifles and the mechanics of them. thanks for the "blast from the past"!

[@Adirondneck]

Well, sir. We share many of the same interests, hobbies and location. Maybe a range day is in order in we can congregate a couple more C&R nuts.

[@jimkey920]

Fantastic design. Simple, safe and elegant! I can see why Winchester bought him out.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

My eyebrows instinctively raised when he began to explain what the wingnut was used for. So cool.

[@witeshade]

For a moment I thought the title said "Orville Redenbacher" and my world was almost completely changed...

[@vguyver2]

+Daniel G this just made my morning. XD I use only the best oils to cook and pop my corn broom guns!

[@YCCCm7]

+Daniel G Once you pop, you just can't stop.

[@YCCCm7]

+Daniel G Once you pop, you just can't stop.

[@TheKodiak72]

That pull action on the brass receiver, when acting it out.. Feels like it would shoot faster then a lever action. Cool guns!

[@johnmcclain3887]

As I watched these actions function, I am strongly reminded of the "luger toggle action", and in particular, the second of these two as shown in this video. I also easily see either as able to be altered to "auto-load" either with a short recoil action or a gas action if implemented. Quite ingenious, fully in keeping with the other arms inventors of those days. Thanks for showcasing these!

[@mntmn4228]

I saw one of these in the Adirondack museum and was flabbergasted that there was a repeating rifle designed and made in the Adirondacks! And of course Ian did a video on it eight years ago! Well done sir

[@Idol76]

Long story short as possible:He was drafted in the civil war as a wagon maker and then I guess around after that he worked at a Remington arms manufacturer in New England,he ended up dying in 1916 at the age of 78 and is buried in Warwick,Orange county New York.

[@BigSwede7403]

That toggle-bolt looks a lot like the one used on the Borchardt pistol some 20 years later. Wonder if there is any technical relation going on there?

[@captiannemo1587]

+BigSwede7403 Was thinking along the same lines myself.

[@Sir_Godz]

+BigSwede7403 The toggle system was used in many designs even machine guns. This could have been the start of that including the straight pull aspect. The adjustibillity for cartridges was very novel. If that had caught on we might be looking at firearms very differently today.

[@ringowunderlich2241]

Hugo Borchardt was working for Winchester around that time.

[@gunnarkvinlaug9079]

Or the Luger!

[@Tunkkis]

@@gunnarkvinlaug9079 Which was designed on the basis of the Borchardt C-93.

[@peterwikvist2433]

Thank you Ian for all the great videos you produce for enthusiasts of firearms.

[@Rumblestrip]

Took Winchester and Browning til 1886 to market a rifle that could handle the same kind of projectile variation.... Thats amazing. I see some Luger there also in the newer variant.

[@sofa_king_kool]

I'd love to see how fast a person could accurately fire that toggle lock version

[@triasn5039]

nice video as always

[@leightodd7335]

Thank you for the excellent history lesson!

[@Corrupted355]

While I greatly appreciate the depth of knowledge that is on display from the auction houses, I really miss the shooting videos back in the desert.

[@kelseytaylor1449]

He lived in Upper Jay, not Lake placid, I grew up listening to stories of him from my poppy and how Winchester bought him out because of fear is mass production his rifles. I've luckily seen one of these and got to hold it, beautiful rifle that I hope to inherit

[@MrMexicanarmy]

I feel so spoiled by this channel. So many informative videos so fast :D. Thank you

[@geordanmorse6054]

These guns come from my home town. Hell yeah

[@CloudyB_MT]

for some reason I kind of like the mechanics on that second Robinson rifle. It's almost like a lever action rifle in such a unique way.

[@j.troydoe1278]

really cool that adjustment for cartridge size👍

[@rapidrrobert4333]

The cartridge length adjustment is awesome, I wish other handgun caliber lever guns had that!

[@vguyver2]

Now this as an awesome discovery. Lucky Ian!

[@russbilzing5348]

As it hasn't been offered in explanation, I'll posit that the side plate in both cases served as a loading gate and hope I won't be laughed to scorn. Even so, I'd love to have worked in his shop.

[@JimFortune]

Ian implied that he would explain it later, but never did.

[@williestyle35]

Yes, that is exactly correct.

[@jacobgerhardt9375]

I live in Plattsburgh so i found this video particularly cool.

[@stoneblue1795]

Great back-story, indeed. Enjoyed this!

[@kevinmoore4173]

I've never heard of these rifles, but they are beautiful and I think they are pretty badass

[@jimkey920]

I followed the link to the Violins. As incredible as the Rifles. thanks for presenting these artifacts arising from a true genius.

[@shaunbang]

Wow this reminds me a lever action gun, interesting how this has a lot of features that the more popular lever actions like the Henry or Winchester didn’t have

[@prestonhenson263]

svelte is such an... elegant word. I am not sure why, but I've always enjoyed it, especially when used properly!

[@TheWhoamaters]

The adjustable cartridge length is a really cool idea and function to have

[@arceusmaster91]

This reminds me a lot of the winchester gallery guns mechanically, with the tilt being on the rear rather than the front of the bolt.

[@Jesses001]

Very interesting designs. I have heard of these but never saw one before.

[@effreyjeppstein4673]

This seems fairly ahead if it's time as far as the complexity of the mechanisms and quality of the build are concerned. I'm in love, I'll own one before my times up!

[@petersack5074]

8:45 wow. Pure geniuseness ! what a good engineer , Mr Robinson was. Wish he was here, helping 'modern ' auto engineers......

[@SW990]

Wow! Nice find. Really cool designs.

[@GreyDevil]

I love the operating system on the first rifle. I'm very curious over the fact that you could adjust the receiver to take different length bullets, i'm not very savvy with guns but are there any current guns that do this? :)

[@ForgottenWeapons]

+GreyDevil Outside of .22 rimfire, no. Our ammo today is more standardized and that sort of adjustability is not really relevant.

[@rogervincent8314]

@@ForgottenWeapons i think this could still be used by big bore caliber hand gun cartridges, i.e. 38 special/357 magnum/357 maximum.. 45 colt,454 casall as long as the case diameters are the same..would be a novelty but interesting

[@smokeydops]

that is a REALLY early toggle-lock gun. Very interesting! thank you, Ian

[@zacharyrollick6169]

Technically, the Winchester lever guns were also toggle locked.

[@mynameismin3]

This guy had some very advanced ideas for his day.

[@anrew4425]

Very cool, i like the toggle lock.

[@Spitsz01]

Again great stuff Ian. Very interesting. Keep picking those unique weapons please. Your historic and technical knowledge is amazing!

[@richhart7267]

Ian you have the best videos very informative

[@kenhelmers2603]

Thanks! Interesting how action 'types' show up in different places

[@dandel351]

Cool looking old guns there Ian.

[@TeaAndBullets]

Wow, Robinson was a genius! It's sad he was bought out, I would have liked to see him expand on his designs.

[@piRaufasertapete]

There may have been a market for his designs. I really like the fact you can adjust the rifle to accept multiple cartridges

[@phileas007]

Honestly, I can see the issue. The design idea is interesting, but both designs are expensive and finicky. The Winchester guns in general are much simpler and accomplish essentially the same.

[@nerome619]

very much enjoying your series. Noticed the wooly-pully sweater you have on too!

[@georgesheffield1580]

If you look at the operating mechanisms of many of the early factory machines you will see where alot of the early repeating rifles got their ideas .

[@dana8190]

Your videos are quality stuff!, thanks for all you do

[@KB4th]

Really interesting designs and vid mate.....

[@shaunbang]

I really like the design of the brass versions handle with the brass piece. Looks like it would be a cool lever for a lever action rifle

[@adamnichols476]

Just like the auto industry, there used to be thousands of gun manufacturers. The big ones bought out all the little ones.

[@drmaudio]

Very interesting. I suspect they may have had a hard time competing against the Winchester '73 once that came out, but then again, Winchester saw them as a threat.

[@Irondrone4]

Neat! I was just wondering if there were any guns out there that had the built-in capability to alter the size of cartridge they could fire.

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

Very interesting mechanics on these rifles. The toggle action in particular was very interesting. Did any other weapons use this idea between when these were made and when the Luger came into being?

[@gunnarkvinlaug7226]

I can see why the Henry/ Winchester type got more popular since you could reload the next round without changing grip.

[@NonApplicable1983]

Are these technically bolt action rifles?

[@williestyle35]

The first rifle is a tilting bolt action ( brass frame model 1870 ). The second rifle is a toggle action ( iron frame model 1872 ).

[@zacharyrollick6169]

Yes.

[@cannonfodder6299]

Both of those actions would be pretty good if mated to a lever or pump action. Both seem a little ungainly for practical use.

[@Hyperian]

did Winchester just buy out all his competitors?

[@masterpoop67]

Basically

[@ThZuao]

And those they didn't buy, they struck a deal to not make the same kinds of firearms eachother did. Like S&W. An exception might be Marlin Firearms (founded 1870).

[@Halo1138]

+Hyperian Smart guy eh? Kill off any competition before it begins. Would have been interesting to see how the field would have looked if he didn't shut them down.

[@gophop]

+Hyperian Common practice. Look at Microsoft in the 90's for similar approach.

[@RedXlV]

Hyperian All the competitors they could, yes.

[@gunner678]

Very clever and it would not have taken much adaptation for semi auto repetition.

[@AM-hf9kk]

That brass receiver with the sleek handguard is sexy, but the toggle lock looks like a beast! I imagine it could easily be converted to semi-auto with a gas tube running to a piston and a simple return spring under the toggle handle. A self-loading rifle with a 22" under-barrel tube magazine and roughly 1.5" OAL cartridge gives a ... call it 12+1 round capacity (leaving room for the compressed spring and follower). WW1 may have looked VERY different if that was the Allied grunt's rifle, instead of 5/6 round bolt actions.

[@daddynabs4203]

I’m from Birmingham, England. Would love to see Ian over here doing some videos on British guns, I prefer the pre 1900 guns, for the history as much as the engineering. Great videos

[@KevinC2793]

I'm honestly amazed Winchester didn't use either of those actions. They're both quite robust and in some ways superior to the lever action, both would be easier to use while prone, especially that tilting block straight-pull bolt action.

[@randymagnum143]

I wonder if Winchester was interested in some facet of the design? Like the way the elevator interacts with the bolt. Maybe something from these ended up in the pump action .22s?

[@EURIPODES]

I might actually be related to this guy. I remember my dad saying something about an Orvill form New York. Now I want to do some digging.

[@rogerstill71]

Lack of a forestock would put me off buying one of these rifles, but they ARE very innovative.

[@l.b8896]

I like that toggle lock model

[@forge52100]

Interesting design, nice feature with the cartridge length adjustment, provided it would stay and not move while firing, especially at two legged animals that shoot back. In other words it's a needless complication that can tie up the gun at the worst possible time. That said, both operating systems had potential, but I'd still have chosen a 66 in 44 Henry or the new 73 in 44WCF. Seems the Robinson's rifles were available in 44 and 38 rimfire, so they don't really offer any advantage over the existing 1866 improved Henry that Winchester was making, with one exception, the firing from the prone would be easier and quicker with the Robinson's design.

[@dannybruce2027]

Wow those are both really neat. Too bad he didn't continue developing firearms. Our loss.

[@DanielSvensson666]

Wow, the way to operate the first reminds of some ARs and the second of a German Luger. Cool guns.:D

[@piRaufasertapete]

The brass receiver rifle has a very interesting design.

[@bassmith448bassist5]

So what you have there is essentially a straight pull repeater without the side bolt handle??? Very cool. Love your videos Ian.

[@NormanMatchem]

Very cool, must have been a smart cookie!

[@macnutz4206]

The second one with the toggle lock solved one of the problems the military had with those tube magazine rifles. This you could operate from the prone position.

[@randymagnum143]

Macnutz420 lay down and run a marlin 336. Its a myth. Lever is shorter than an ar mag.

[@macnutz4206]

Randy Magnum I have shot a number of lever action rifles and carbines from the prone position. I found some were problematic but some were easy. All of them force you to readjust sight alignment with each use of the lever. With many bolt action you have less readjustments to make with the bolt action. None I what I said will be true for every rifle or even perhaps shooters of different sizes. I know I had to twist a bit to the left to properly work the lever on most lever action guns. I do not know about the specific weapons you are mentioning. I agree that the idea regarding this specific issue has probably exaggerated but it has some truth. I believe I would have Much preferred a bolt action to a lever action in the trenches of WWI. Soldiers are going to be sensitive to things that can cause them to expose themselves more, even a tiny bit. I believe the mud and dirt problems in the trenches would have been more common and serious than for the bolt action, because of the action it self. I know the Russians used some lever action rifles in WWI but none or very very damned few of them survived the war and the revolution. So, no one knows how they performed. I have my own opinion because of youthful comparisons between several different rifles and carbines that belonged to friends and relatives. I believe they saw little military use for more reasons than the difficulties one might run into in prone firing. People like simple pat answers.

[@macnutz4206]

Randy Magnum second reply, I did those comparisons because I believed they had made a mistake regarding the effects of the lever action on a prone shooter. I loved lever actions and could fire a lever action faster than a bolt action. But not in prone position, it took me longer to get back in the sights. Try varmint hunting with a lever action, you will quickly discover how difficult it is to work the lever action without exposing your self or warning the prey. If you get really good at it, you still rotate and wave the end of the barrel a bit. You can learn to operate the bolt, slowly, without taking your eyes off target while keeping the noise of the action dampened. At least that was my experience.

[@Primarch359]

how many varieties of cartridges did those a just able blocks allow it to use?

[@jordanshyadow8817]

The toggle action version deserves a reproduction

[@cliffchilders5820]

I never heard of these!!!! Neat!!!

[@tskwared667]

I miss the older videos from the auction houses for some reason.

[@josuelservin2409]

Very interesting guns, just a couple of questions, they are loaded from the gate in the side? and any info on the caliber?

[@nemu3014]

"I hope you enjoyed the video" Me, who enjoyed the video five years after its creation: Yes, Ian from Forgotten weapons, yes I did.

[@jordanwalsh1691]

That 1872 is like some sort of bastard love child between a rolling block rifle, a luger, a lever action rifle, and a dash of Lee Navy thrown in for good measure, I love it, haha.

[@aspyromilios]

Ian you should consider that the first gun may be more prone to firing out of battery, hence the second one had the addition of the bolt extension above the hammer. when the toggle is part open you can see it does not clear the hammer. the first gun looks like it could fire when not in battery. maybe that was one of the reasons the designer considered the second gun superior.

[@white0devil0]

Very interesting designs I got to say.

[@88azturbo]

The innovation back then was just amazing. And not a CAD program in sight!

[@gaabetzagooga5954]

Can't believe he made popcorn AND guns

[@flamedrag18]

@forgottenweapons for future reference, please put up the volume in your videos, specifically when you're using the video from distant view, I have to put the volume much higher than normal and if using bluetooth headset, I can't hear you at all.

[@herroberliutenantlang5965]

The way this gun feeds a cartridge reminds me of some modern rifle invented by Eugene Stoner.The second one reminded me of the BAR.

[@GreyDevil]

I don't know if it's just me but all the videos for this week have had really low audio levels. For me it's easy to just turn up the volume, but if i forget and go to another video then i'm blasted by loud noise :P Check your levels Ian or up them when editing? Sorry i hate to complain. Love your videos!

[@juliannixon9734]

I really like the 2nd rifle there, a very nifty rifle action

[@terrorcop101]

So given the size adjustment, does that mean these could be chambered for different calibers or just different loads? It kind of suggests that you could fire either a lot of pistol rounds at a short range or a few rifle rounds at longer range.

[@arbhall7572]

So you could fire several sizes of cartridge in the Mk One Robinson rifle as long as they were the same diameter? That is really cool if thats the case, proper frontier engineering and innovation. Making it so you can use a wide variety of ammo to super cheap settlers is fricken brilliant! I kinda wish more manufacturers did this sort of thing. But you know like. Modern and not life threatening to make use of.

[@wizardofahhhs759]

Arbhall McDougall yeah, probably like short, long, and long rifle for .22 rifles.

[@austinpresley6187]

@@wizardofahhhs759 What about .22 Magnum?