The Italian Last-Ditch TZ-45 Submachine Gun

The TZ-45 is a late-war (some might say last ditch) Italian submachine gun made in small numbers and notable primarily for being the first SMG to use a grip safety on the magazine well. The grip safety on the TZ-45 is actually quite significant, as it locks the bolt in place when either cocked or forward. This does accomplish the important safety feature of preventing the bolt from bouncing open on impact and firing, but it also means that the bolt cannot be manually cycled without engaging the grip safety. Not surprisingly, most later submachine gun designers using grip safeties would opt to have them not block the bolt being cocked.
Only about 6,000 of these guns were made in Cremona before the end of the war, and they were used mostly in anti-partisan fighting in northern Italy. They were chambered in 9x19mm and used standard Beretta 38 magazines, so they presented minimal logistical challenges to units already equipped with other submachine guns. After the was, the design was adopted with a few changes by the Burmese military as the BA-52.
/ forgottenweapons
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.bbtv.com/c...
If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! / inrangetvshow

[@3Martinix3]

I did some research, and this is what I discovered: The TZ-45 was designed in 1944 by Aldo Zorzoli and (Unnamed) Tonon in collaboration with Armaguerra, a weapons factory in Cremona. Later, during the war, the weapons were actually built by a factory named "brothers Giandoso" in Brescia. To be more clear: The name of the gun comes form the initials of the Last Names of the two designers *the original designers were not relatives*, while Giandosa is the name of the Factory. Being italian, it's a lot easier for me to find these kind of informations. Hope this helps.

[@oceanhome2023]

Martinix Way Cool Bro !

[@jonross377]

Do you still live in Italy? How are your gun laws there?

[@stefanol7814]

@@jonross377 Actual carry permits are exceedingly rare, and are issued only to some lawyers, jewelers, gunsmiths and the like -totalling less than 20k people in the whole country. But we can buy, own, transport unloaded and shoot on the range quite a bit of guns (with an apposite "sport" permit at the authorities' discretion, and provided one has no previous felony convictions, or a history of alcohol abuse, drug use, etc.). Presently one can own up to 3 "defensive" handguns (the only ones you could carry with the near-mythical carry permit), up to 12 "sporting" guns (both handguns and rifles), plus an unlimited number of "hunting" rifles. There apposite rules for actual collections. The distinction between defensive and sporting weapons is quite awkward (e.g. for pistols, adjustable sights and/or long barrels make for sporting, e.g. a 4" S&W 686 is defensive and a 6" is sporting). There is currently a 20-round limit on pistol magazines and a 10-round limit on rifles (except sporting ones under particular authorization conditions, which can have 29-round magazines; on the other hand hunting rifles have limits depending on the particular game). There is a maze of regulations and someone will be able to explain much better but on the whole the law-abiding italian can have a lot of fun on range days. Guns (not ammo) are quite expensive compared to the US, however. Regards from Italy. P.S. There is also an ammo limit: 200 rds handgun, 1500 rds rifle of which no more than 1000 ball ammo (incl. shotgun slugs). Registered competition shooters can have more, I think up to 600 handgun rds, don't know about rifle ammo.

[@stefanol7814]

@@nicoghiro3127 Thanks. I took the select-fire prohibition for granted. As to the 5-rounds limits, it has been lifted to 10 recently

[@lookatthismonkey75]

Allora non sono l'unico italiano hahaaha

[@Mrboombastic266]

What better present for an Italian guy than to see Gun Jesus showing an obscure Italian SMG on his birthday! Thank you Ian

[@matthayward7889]

Mrboombastic266 Buon Compleanno!

[@Mrboombastic266]

Matt Hayward Grazie!

[@tdugong]

Mrboombastic266 happy birthday to you, sir! 🎊🎉

[@Nosaliz7513]

Auguri

[@IonoTheFanatics]

probably one of the better looking 'last ditch' weapon, perhaps to be expected of Italians.

[@CaptainGrief66]

Iono Sama When Italian engineering works, it works

[@tsylvester2523]

TheOtakuComrade But not for very long :D

[@texgj7595]

T Sylvester And your statement is based on what exactly?

[@robertbenson136]

He must have owned a Fiat .

[@mcqueenfanman]

Fix It Again Tony!

[@cptreech]

For a "Last Ditch" weapon that's actually pretty cool. Nice machining, a muzzle brake, serious safety considerations. Compared with the Sten MK2, the "Grease Gun", the MP3008 or a PPS43 this is actually a pretty well developed gun.

[@franklind.roosevelt7416]

The grease gun and PPS43 were far from last ditch, they were cheap because that's how you want your SMG. They don't need to be expensive at all, when all it has to do is shoot pistol cartridges there's no real reason to have it be any more complex than a tube with some springs and a bolt in it. At least not in a military setting.

[@Activated_Complex]

I took his original comment to mean it compares favorably with those other small arms, despite being a last-ditch weapon. I’m inclined to agree.

[@donjones4719]

I was thinking if the M3 was given to these two designers it would look a bit different. Yeah, I love the ugly mf, and it was all about production capacity, but a little style is nice. I wonder if the bolt handle/dust cover would work on the M3 - simply sticking your finger into the exposed bolt was kinda ingenious, but I was never happy with it.

[@JDaVaporPhonkGuy03]

@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine all the italians "last ditch" smgs use the Beretta M38 (MAB38) magazines but a smg like the TZ are not enough ammo 40 round mag with 900rpm u burn ammo too fast on the other hand theres always the FNAB43 with his 400rpm that is way better

[@patrickkelly8512]

The grease gun was no last ditch weapon and was actually a fantastic SMH

[@honkhonkler7732]

When the Italian last ditch subgun was more refined than the first ditch British one lol 😂

[@giulioespositi9052]

...Exactly True: and also much

[@theodorrodriguez1800]

im a brit and hate the sten, they could have at least gave it a pistol grip

[@garygallant5390]

This sub looks great for a last ditch

[@scimatarpictures]

@@theodorrodriguez1800 there were some ‘pistol gripped’ stens :)

[@calj6148]

@@theodorrodriguez1800 and delete the awkward side magazine and put it normally on the bottom or even emulate Australia's superior Owen gun and gravity assist on top.

[@costantinoandruzzi2219]

You're correct, Ian: Giandoso (full name: Fratelli Giandoso, that is, Giandoso Bros) is the factory name and it was located in Brescia, Northern Italy. The two designers were Tonon and Zorzoli. A significant historical note about this SMG: a TZ-45 was used by Italian left-wing terrorist organization Brigate Rosse (Red Brigades) to shoot the bodyguard of president Aldo Moro, one of Italy's most prominent politicians at the time, who was kidnapped on that occasion. All 5 armed officers protecting him were killed. The attack took place in Rome on March 16, 1978.

[@gselvo]

Similar to John F. Kennedy being killed by a Mannlicher Carcano

[@davideb.4290]

Actually, After studies some historians are prone to think that Aldo Moro was not kidnapped by the brigate Rosse cuz of the organization of the attack

[@costantinoandruzzi2219]

@@davideb.4290 The Red Brigades were certainly there, with other as yet undisclosed individuals, possibly from the intelligence and organized crime. It's one of those notorious "Italian mysteries"...

[@davideb.4290]

@@costantinoandruzzi2219 si esatto, non ce se ne capisce un cazzo eheh. L'unica cosa che non mi spiego è perché gli sia venuto in mente di ammazarlo proprio quando stava organizzando un alleanza con i rossi. Boh, più che altro era per quello che mi sembra credibile che gli americani l'abbiano fatto secco

[@letsburn00]

@@davideb.4290 I don't speak Italian, so this was always something I couldn't find that much about. But yeah, it's a pretty strange piece of history. Killing a guy who actually helped your side become legitimate made no sense to me. I'm not sure about the conspiracies(that he was killed by the CIA because an anti-soviet communist party was too complicated for cold war dogmatists to allow), but they at least do make sense.

[@vanders4198]

Perhaps the grip safety was a smart idea if you were expecting a lot of lightly trained conscripts who would be more likely to accidentally fire the gun. I could see this being a factor in the RSI during the time.

[@ECHOFOXTROT289]

Actually the RSI wasn’t that badly trained as it’s always thought. Still with this smg being given out to often less trained anti partisan units, it’s understandable that they went with safety over effectiveness.

[@robosoldier11]

I really don’t see an an issue if your a right shoulder shooter in terms of effectiveness. I mean I’m obviously going off mental picture here. But pulling a stick mag from your left side. Up to reload and hold the safety then using you right hand to charge the handle. It doesn’t seem that egregious? However it obviously becomes a problem when you don’t have your mags on your left side and on your right side. However if you always load the mag with your left hand and use your right it doesn’t seem that crazy. For lefties this systems is a clear crutch.

[@doriancanarelli8997]

@@ECHOFOXTROT289 Some RSI units did see action against allied troops like the Regiment San-Marco (Decima Flotiglia-mas),airborne Rgt Nembo/Folgore,M Bnt "9 Settembre" & also some black brigades and GNR unit.

[@9ryder]

I bet most of the soldiers tied a rope or string to make that grip safety being "pressed" always, and when you werent in the middle of it they took the rope/sting off.

[@spoeny]

Honnou Yeah, or just put a twig/whatever under the upper arm of the safety.

[@CFABN267]

Honnou my thoughts exactly. There's always a bypass to such "safety mechanisms" lol

[@9ryder]

Jamming something over the upper arm of the safety could also work, but i see a flaw with that. It can become loose by the recoil of the gun, also it can get partially engaged with the catch and maybe even breaking the gun. So tying the "grip safety" is better and safer in my opinion and it doesnt harm the gun at all.

[@swagner58]

I'm of the same mind. As an ex-soldier, the first thing I thought was "Just how long before somebody took a shoelace and tied it off".

[@arisukak]

You would just charge it like an AK is supposed to be charged. Have your left hand on the magazine well depressing the safety, and using your right hand for everything else. Ian is just being backwards because he is wrong handed and made it look difficult. No need to use a rope, string, twig, whatever bullshit. It's just dumb to disable a safety.

[@georgesears934]

This looks like a prop for a live action "Metro 2033" movie.

[@_-.-_-_.._--.-_-_----_-.--_._-]

I wish Metro 2033 would get its own movie. Hollywood would rather produce terrible remakes of classics or even more terrible originals like the Emoji Movie.

[@louisbeerreviews8964]

No metro is a game not a movie

[@markosofranic3905]

How about a S.T.A.L.K.E.R. movie?

[@tonyovermyer5368]

If I remember correctly, the creator of the Metro video games chose to use video games as a story telling platform rather than a movie as movies are much shorter, and so it wouldn't be possible to include as much detail as there was in the video games.

[@judsongaiden9878]

@@markosofranic3905 Told from the perspective of a *FLESHPIG!* XD kzbin.info/www/bejne/mandmauCYpini9U kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJvIo6RtmNmjaaM

[@toledo152]

Did some rich dude die and now his kids are selling of his MG's? There has been many full auto guns on FG lately. Not that I'm complaining.

[@toddhoward5964]

It wouldn't be hard to defeat that safety, especially in the era of easily accessible sources of adhesive tape and rubber bands.

[@ulfpe]

Todd Howard Kind of silly, this seems to be a much better safety that the traditional hocking up of the bolt. This is not a fast way if readying a submachine gun. But a grip safety at the handle would be better...

[@ulfpe]

Todd Howard Safetys are there to prevent you from accidentally shoting your colleagues or even your own foot...actually not a bad thing.

[@VMUDream]

"IT JUST WORKS"

[@leathery420]

If well designed yes, but if they also stop you from shooting someone when you need to its not so good.

[@invadervim9037]

When does fallout 5 come out?

[@Solsys2007]

This channel is the equivalent of a video encyclopedia on firearms. It is already a reference in shooters & collectors circles. I don't know how Ian manages to make this large volume of very detailed videos in such little time though (not mentioning goofing away on shooting ranges in the desert). Never mind, keep up the good work !

[@kithalsted]

Me before owning an open bolt subgun: "that safety is sooo stupid!!!!" Me after owning an open bolt subgun: "hey, that's really not a bad idea!"

[@DarkestVampire92]

And now i´m wondering if Ian is ever gonna cover the really obscure wildcard of an italian last ditch submachine gun, the Isotta Fraschini Alberti. Looks a lot like this thing but even cruder, and they produced a whopping 250 guns plus prototypes.

[@lucianene7741]

This "last ditch" weapon still has more features than an MP-40. I don't see that grip safety as much of a problem, you would usually cycle the bolt with the right hand and hold the mag well with the left.

[@QuellicheilMarza]

From what I could find in some italian literature, the "Giandoso Brothers" was a factory in Brescia, while Tonon e Zorzoli were indeed the designers.

[@fatihbaskin2000]

That charging handle/dustcover thing was genious.

[@rickautry2759]

Italian style even in a 'last ditch' weapon. I mean good lord, the crap that the German designers foisted off on the Volksturm was truly criminal!

[@sigmasquadleader]

Just wait until you hear about some other criminal things Germany did during that time

[@mikeingermany7417]

@@sigmasquadleader ahaha true

[@chapiit08]

@@sigmasquadleader The criminal things that the allied did are slowly starting to surface now.

[@chapiit08]

Any worse than the awful Sten, which by the way wasn't a last ditch weapon. You obviously have no idea of engineering let alone weapons.

[@TheBucketSkill]

@@chapiit08 What is your fucking point? There's always some cancerous axis defender whenever some dares to say something about the horrible things Germany did.

[@BufusTurbo92]

In Italy, Toni and Zorzoli/a are family names, not first names :D Toni may be sometimes used as a diminutive for Antonio but it is basically never used in official context such as naming a gun

[@federicomangiantini9626]

it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luca_Toni

[@johnleake5657]

And apparently Tonon, not Toni

[@giulioespositi9052]

@@johnleake5657 ...INFATTI: the exact name is TONON, a common family-name in north- east Italia...

[@thejoshchannel45]

For a last-ditch SMG that looks better than most normal SMGs

[@sergeantbigmac]

Its like someone took the STEN and said, how do we make this less crude but just as cheap? lol I actually like this gun a lot. Everything is thought out well all things considered. Even that safety makes a lot of sense when you know the history and inherent dangers of open bolts. The number of STENs that went off from being dropped or bumped was too high to just be isolated incidents. If you operate it the old fashioned way (keep your left hand on the grip and manipulate everything w/your right hand) it makes a lot more sense. And of course the way they designed it with that screw means you can just remove the whole thing if you didnt like it.

[@neutronalchemist3241]

I'd really like if Ian manages to put his hands over a Variara SMG (there are at least 12 surviving samples, at least one of them in a private collection). It's an insurgent weapon (it was manufactured by Italian partisans during WWII), but it's really the king of insurgent SMGs. Sten-style bolt and charging handle slot, TZ45 style barrel assembly / receiver, FNAB 43 style folding magazine holder (for MAB 38 magazines) MAB38 style double trigger for full auto-semiauto, MP40 style folding stock and pistol grip, original grip safety. Its' like someone decided to put the best features of all those SMGs in one design, that was still easy and cheap to produce and field strip.

[@troy9477]

Looks like a nice solid design. With modern alloys etc you could shave off even more weight. The grip safety seems odd by our standards, but you can see it is effective and does its job. Adds maybe 3/4 of a second to the reload, but that is not that big of a deal, especially if you are in a group of soldiers. Definitely one of the better "cheap" SMG designs. And tbe barrel is easily removeable. That is definitely a plus for detail cleaning and avoiding muzzle wear by cleaning from the chamber end. Great video as always. Thank you

[@ragnarokstravius2074]

Maybe changing the grip safety to the trigger grip would make it even easier to use, just flip it and we're ready to go.

[@bladudemovies]

Awesome. Another cool Italian firearm video on my birthday no less.

[@sandy2995]

Ian. I was just on a TV quiz show and was unable to answer a question regarding the names of the brothers who designed the TZ-45. I agree with you that there is some good evidence to suggest the designers were not, in fact, brothers. If only you had released this video a month ago. Love your work.

[@StAlchemyst]

8:21 Robot Ian!

[@ThatGuyWhoLeaksStuff]

GUN_JESUS.exe has encountered an error and needs to close. Would you like to send an error report? Y/N

[@herberar]

Stanley Scalf Hey Stanley, you mean the " robot style voice " ?

[@StAlchemyst]

Um... I didn't think that would need an explanation. it was a joke.

[@StAlchemyst]

HA! Great one m8te!

[@marcogrossi6334]

@@StAlchemyst ☠️☠️☠️

[@russbilzing5348]

This 'grip safety', if you will, had no trouble being thwarted with a bit of twisted wire or string. Grip safeties were commonly tied back in the early days of the Colt 1911 and 1911 a-1. Elliot Ness took a 1911 in .380 Super from the body of his victim, outside the theatre where the Lady in Red told him he would find his #1 Most Wanted. It also had the grip safety tied down.

[@davidherbst6135]

As this is a last ditch weapon, and so had a high likelihood of being shoved into the hands of frightened people with little or no training, and minimal instruction, the trade off of efficiency for safety is entirely understandable.

[@neutronalchemist3241]

But there is no real loss of efficiency also. The thing is made to be held with the left hand by the safety / magazine holder, while the reload operations are made with the right one (the contrary for a leftie). No loss of speed, and, since you have your left hand around the magazine holder, you can't miss it while changing the magazine, even if you are operating in the darkness, or not looking at the weapon at all.

[@jebstuart58]

Hi from Italy. Tonon and Zorzoli Giandoso were three and not two person. These are three surnames very frequent in Northern Italy. The TZ 45 was designed by Aldo Zorzoli and a lieutenant colonel whose surname was Tonon who was the director of the SFARE in Gardone Val Trompia but whose first name remains unknown. Ermenegildo Giandoso and Son were the manufacturers of the submachine gun, in a factory located in Gardone. So... Designers: (Aldo) Zorzoli and (unknown first name) Tonon Manufacturers: (Ermenegildo) Giandoso & Son.

[@williamprince1114]

It seems comparable to the STEN and M4. Well done, particularly by last ditch standards.

[@windhelmguard5295]

i'd put this over the sten given that this has some very intelligent design features, especially the grip safety which ensures that nobody can fire it while holding it wrong, which is important when you're in a last ditch scenario where the guys you have left aren't necessairily well trained or highly disciplined.

[@honkhonkler7732]

It's much more refined than the Sten.

[@siulong1394]

According to the Italian page of Wikipedia, the designers of this weapons were Tonon and Zarzoli. The manufacturer was Armaguerra. it.wikipedia.org/wiki/TZ-45

[@mr.intolerance]

The gripsavety functions well for righthanders.

[@ronmifsud6946]

You're very knowledgeable person that knows firearms I enjoy every presentation you discuss especially auto-weapons....machineguns....one of y favorite subjects..Thanks

[@stefanprenner4141]

Would it be viable to hold the gun with the left hand and perform all reloading actions simply with the right hand? In this case no grip switching is necessary and the procedure as is would be pretty comfortable for a right handed shooter.

[@AreThereNoMoreNames]

You'd have to both hold the lever on the magwell while you pull the charging handle back, which is probably impossible.

[@farmerboy916]

Hold lever and grip with left hand, like any right handed shooter. Pull against shoulder to hold, like any right handed shooter. Let go of rear grip with right hand, charge gun with same hand, then return to rear grip and trigger, like any right handed shooter.

[@stefanprenner4141]

I meant you hold the gun with the left thus depressing the grip safety, the right hand can then change the mag and throw the bolt. Should be no problem?

[@Zajuts149]

Yeah, that was pretty much the way I was taught to change magazines on the G-3. Left hand on the front grip, release the magazine and replace it with the right hand. Then charge the bolt with the right hand before putting it back on the pistol grip.

[@garyneilson1833]

My thoughts exactly when I saw the video, definitely a gun for right handed shooters

[@marekotec2540]

I find that very appealing kind of looks like a Carl Gustav

[@hasanmichael4966]

Ian, I would love to see a shooting vide of this gun. It would be interesting to see you try a few different styles of reloading. I would think (shooting right handed) you could hold the gun with your left hand, pressed against your shoulder for extra support, and use your right hand to load a new magazine and charge the gun. (I know someone is going to say "but you will be blocking the magazine release", but I would bet you can hold the gun like said above without depressing the safety.)

[@neutronalchemist3241]

Moreover, since the left hand gives to the gunner the exact position of the magazine holder, it's imposible to miss it, even operating in the dark, or not looking at the weapon at all.

[@elendilnix]

The TZ 45 was designed by Aldo Zorzoli and a lieutenant colonel Angelo Tonon (Former director of Terni Arsenal) who was the director FARE acronym of Fabbrica d'Armi Regio Esercito (Royal Army Weapon Factory) in Gardone Val Trompia, TZ45 meaning Tonon-Zorzoli 1945. FARE by German order was closed and absorbed by OM (now IVECO), which considered the war prey arsenal and converted into a truck factory. The production was entrusted to the firm "Officine Giandoso Gardone" of Gardone Val Trompia which at the end of the war counted 130 workers. Officine Giandoso Gardone was not originally an arms factory, but it was an ammunition factory. The company was closed and dismantled by the owner Comm. Ermenegildo 'Gildo' Giandoso after the war.

[@round_earther3195]

For a last ditch weapon, it appears to be better quality than the German last ditch guns.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

The Italians had a lot more style - they also weren't paranoid about the Russians reenacting the atrocities committed on them a couple years earlier in reverse - so they were just twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to kick out the Germans so they could get back to business.

[@GRANFRA99]

@@fuzzydunlop7928 you probably don't know about the Marocchinate, commited by the Allies, and the mass murdering of Sant'Anna di Stazzema, Marzabotto, and other places as well.

[@ECHOFOXTROT289]

Calvicius Lx3 it’s now well known that the allies committed atrocities, still the germans and in particular the SS really played a number on their “allies” as there were many killings by the SS in Italy, often leaving entire villages in ruins. This plus the fascist indiscriminate crackdown on even “suspected” partisans, makes it so that the majority of the population of Italy, not a fan of the war in the first place, were just hoping that this mess would end quickly. PS. No way you can compare the allied crimes with nazis crimes. Just the magnitude of the latter and the fact that they were deliberate, encouraged and widely planned in advance, puts em on a totally different level.

[@honkhonkler7732]

Or the first ditch British one (looking at you, Sten)

[@ChaosPootato]

"Goofy clawn hat" front post is spot on xD

[@Tsudoshi09]

Lol Seems to be machined very well for a last titch smg, very cool design

[@NoNonsenseNendou]

Tsudoshi09 most weapons in Italy before and during were partially made by hand, because it wasn't really complicated to make.

[@matthewcourture7671]

Thank you for making such awesome videos one of my favorites was the one of the m1941 Sosso

[@davide7046]

I saw the title in Italian and i thought you became Italian hahah

[@lorenzopeverelli7819]

A volte KZbin traduce automaticamente i titoli

[@Ace-rp7vr]

For a late war gun that was sapused to be cheap it seems pretty well made for what it is

[@jk-76]

Sow one at a battlefield commemoration for San Pietro when I was stationed in Naples. Don't know if it was operational or if it were even part of that campaign but it was a cool looking gun...

[@ag111ga]

There is some interesting info about this gun, designers and manufacturers in the book "Italian Small Arms of the First and Second World Wars" by Ralph Riccio.

[@The411]

A piece of webbing strap lodged between the receiver and that safety lever would take care of "Battle Efficiency". Then you could easily pull it out when in the barracks or transport.

[@TazzeOptical]

this is just a wild guess but since the design is a last ditch effort that safety might have been added to be able to hand that gun to totally untrained people that might have been hastily conscripted at the end of the war without risking frequent accidental discharges.

[@frankmueller2781]

I would imagine that troops in the field would wire the grip safety to "Open."

[@am17frans]

I feel people are oversetimating the problem of the grip safty, just rack back the bolt before changing the magazine and most of the issue is moot.

[@aaronstorey9712]

then it just locks open...

[@poisonouslead85]

@@aaronstorey9712 It's an open bolt gun. Open is ready to fire.

[@SlavicCelery]

@@poisonouslead85 The grip safety will stop the bolt from falling all the way. Just because the bolt is open, you still have to address the grip safety.

[@maxpulido4268]

@@SlavicCelery Just charge the weapon with your firing hand like everyone did back then. There is no issue in contemporary usage.

[@francescosavini4788]

Grazie per aver portato l orgoglio italiano il made in Italy tira fuori eccellenze anche in. Momenti di crisi

[@kinghoodofmousekind2906]

What a fascinating design...wonder if there are places which produce replicas, as it's quite nice looking.

[@jeffpowers8526]

I've been reading a lot recently on the Italian partisans lately and OSS/SOE cooperation so this is awesome to see. Will we see anything else in that subject like the UD42 or (highly unlikely) an FNAB-43?

[@BrochachoEnchilada]

Man, I love this one and the FNAB-43

[@alessandrocaputo7764]

Man of colture

[@historyofitaly4364]

Thanks!💪🏻🇮🇹❤️

[@matthewpraayjr.9797]

This gun is really aesthetically pleasing to look at

[@iamcondescending]

This is what my Nono carried in WW2. He was an artillery man.

[@gabrieleciciriello6447]

+Forgotten Weapons that's a similar grip safety to the one on the cbj-ms submachine gun/pdw,where if you release the grip safety during a burst the gun stops firing

[@aleinno70]

una lettera scritta anni fa a Tac armi dall'ing. Domenico Salza (che non credo necessiti di presentazioni), il quale così rappresentò la questione: - Il tenente colonnello Tonon era il direttore della Sfare di Gardone (arsenale militare), Zorzoli era un appassionato d'armi figlio di un dirigente della Lancia, con una officina a Torino. Entrambi misero a punto l'arma, che fu testata a fuoco a Piossasco prima dell'8 settembre. La costruzione fu affidata alla società Ermenegildo Giandoso e figlio con sede a Gardone Val Trompia e fu supervisionata da Andrea Bertella, che poi sembra sia stato artefice anche dei mitra Genar. Posso, però, dire che la Samt ha avuto senza dubbio a che fare con il progetto almeno nel dopoguerra, visto che dispongo del manuale originale del mitra Az50 della Samt (Società anonima meccanica torinese) che, con minime modifiche, è il Tz45. Può essere che la Samt fosse la società costituita da Zorzoli (mi risulta esistente almeno dal 1943 e produttrice di un non grande quantitativo di pistole da segnalazione mod. 900), che tra il 1943 e il 1945 non aveva le capacità produttive per realizzare materialmente i mitra e, quindi, si dovette affidare a terzi. Alla fine, comunque, anche nel dopoguerra andò più o meno nello stesso modo, visto che i diritti di fabbricazione furono ceduti alla Birmania.

[@philips.5563]

There presence of the semi-auto option and the non-reciprocating charging handle are both interesting for a gun made so late in the war.

[@phdlestrade]

A note about safety and magazine replacement procedure. Probably soldiers must had been trained to do it in this order: 1. Lock the bolt in a rearward posiion (using the front cutout on the bolt) 2. Remove empty mag 3. Insert full mag 4. Depress the safety (bolt will drop, chamber a new round and fire) Though it's just an idea

[@neutronalchemist3241]

The correct reloading procedure for a right handed person seems to be: hold the gun with your left hand by the safety / magazine holder and use your right hand to replace the magazine and operate the charging handle (that's almost exactly the same procedure of the Bergmann MP35 reviewed last week) and you'll not have loss in combat efficiency at all. Is not like you have much to do with your right hand (that's rupposed to be your most able one) until the reload procedure is completed, so it's better to use it to reload the gun.

[@dscrappygolani7981]

This guy! 🙏 Such an erudite persona!

[@scottmcintire8634]

Actually saw two TZ-45/BA-52 ‘Ne Win Sten’ SMG’s while visiting Burma/Myanmar. The first was during my 2001 trip when I saw a Burmese security guard in front of the Israeli Embassy in Yangon holding one. The second one in 2006 was held by a Burmese police officer who was the tandem pillion rider on a parked police motorcycle in the Sagaing Hills near Mandalay. I was with my hired guide and driver doing some sightseeing and we were waved to the side of the road. My driver went back to talk with the officers while my guide stayed with me, though after a while he told me to stay in the car while he went to see what the delay was. Turns out they just wanted to extort some pocket money from the driver before letting us go.

[@christophercripps7639]

Re: changing magazine & drawing bolt back - all done with right hand? Left hand steadies SMG & operates grip safety. This might be awkward given the distance between the pistol grip & the mag but clearly this SMG was meant to be charged with the right hand. 🤔

[@neutronalchemist3241]

It's not that leftie-unfriendly actually. He'll do all the recharging operations with the left hand while holding the safety/magfazine holder with the right. He only has to operate the charging handle from above.

[@Bertintremors]

that safety kinda reminds me of an uzi in how most guys tape there grips to get around all that

[@Hirosjimma]

Ian, could you maybe raise the volume on your videos a little bit? I've noticed you're almost always quieter than other "talkie" channels I watch. It's not by much, but definitely noticeable.

[@Plymouth888]

Hirosjimma youtube is notorious for reducing volume levels when a video is uploaded.

[@ILoveDashie20]

Hirosjimma Do you not have volume controls on your device?

[@klausbrinck2137]

Every detail looks not cheap but pretty elaborate, for a last-ditch-gun. But the substance of it, is even simpler than the brazilian Uru smg, the grip/fire-group holds even with a single pin to the receiver, while even the Uru needed 2 pins for that... The Uru was once also presented by Ian.

[@KnifeChatswithTobias]

I'm guessing that after you finish shooting the bolt locks in the open position. Thus when you reload, you will not need to charge the bolt to fire. I think once a person gets used to the grip safety it was probably caused little or no problems

[@neutronalchemist3241]

Very few blowback SMGs had a bolt hold open. The correct reload procedure for a right handed person is: hold the gun with your left hand by the safety / magazine holder and use your right hand to replace the magazine and operate the charging handle. Is not like you have much to do with your right hand (that's supposed to be your most able one) until the reload procedure is completed, so its better to use it to reload the gun. More, having the left hand on the magazine well, is very easy to change the magazine in the dark, or without looking (is the same reason the UZI designers wanted the magazine in the handle).

[@scottmcintire8634]

I’ve seen two Burmese BA-52 SMG’s in my four trips to Myanmar. The first time was in 2002, when during a stroll from my in-law’s house in Yangon, I saw one being held by a Burmese soldier providing security for the Israeli Embassy. The second time was in Sagaing, upper Myanmar, when two Burmese cops sitting roadside on a motorcycle waved my hired car and drive over to talk with him, with the cop seated at the back of the motorcycle cradling a BA-52. My guide had me wait in the car while he went back to talk with our driver. Turns out the cop just wanted to extort some pocket money from our driver before letting him/us go about our way. Also saw locally made Burmese versions of the H&K G3, HK-33 and the Uzi with a longer barrel, fixed composite stock and no stiffening ribs on the sheet metal receiver.

[@AirCannonChannel]

Looks sweet!

[@thomasschreiber9559]

Denmark's Madsen m1950 sub gun also had a safety behind the magazine well that didn't interfere with charging the bolt. Ian does a forgotten weapons review of it with range firing.

[@itabiritomg]

I think this reloading process would not be so difficult with the sling on. the main problem here is holding the gun so it wont fall while using the two hand for reloading. On my opinion the sling totally solves this issue.

[@Darthdoodoo]

No matter how many of these subguns i see theres always another one i never heard of 😂

[@atomicpigeonz123]

pasta la vista

[@mr_sentenza]

shut up Trump

[@noborder6205]

Stupid US racist.

[@ElCachorro97]

are italians now arabs?

[@Pasta-la-vista]

you summoned me?

[@marcomenabue7717]

@@Pasta-la-vista jeez man 😂

[@robert-trading-as-Bob69]

I'd be worried about injuring a hand, and not being able to operate the grip safety, but a twig jammed in there would allow you to continue firing the mag that's in there... reloading another mag one-handed would be difficult, but not impossible.

[@planeflyer21]

That grip safety looks like it is easily defeatable, simply inserting some sort of wedge between the L-leg and the receiver.

[@kyithathantsin619]

Burma adopted that gun as BA52, and its the worst gun Burma has ever adopted. The soldiers here called it as the frog shooting gun. And i don't know how effective that forward grip safety is... but it discharged the round quite easily everytime you drop that gun.

[@labandieraitalica850]

Remember that this is a last ditch weapon

[@MisteriosGloriosos922]

Amazing vid!!!

[@hotlinekrapfen]

Also when Toni and Zorzoli project this safety mechanism you have also to thin that many of the guys in military where absolutely noobs and often caused injuries to themselves or others because they were very, VERY, unprepared

[@Nespolino2788]

Toni and Zorzola were the surnames of the two designers

[@geodkyt]

While its not a design choice I would have made, having that grip safety on the mag well prevent movement of the bolt in either direction from either position does have one unambiguous advantage that Ian hinted at but didn't expound on. It is *impossible* to charge the weapon while you are thoughtlessly depressing the trigger, because you *have* to use your firing hand to charge it. While I'm no big fan of support hand grip safeties (because one handed use of the gun in an emergency is absolutely a plausible use case), this is one of the better implementations. I might have beveled the forward end of the rear hole, so one *could* charge the gun without depressing the grip safety - after all, the normal sear catch would also engage the grip safety post and thus suffice as a drop safety (because the bolt couldn't even cycle far enough to strip a round out of the magazine before the safety hit the sear notch if the bolt bounced on dropping, and thus would act much like the ratcheting top cover for later Uzis).

[@RealKull]

ZORZOLI is Venetian dialect for Giorgio, that is, George...and yes, Italian dialects do differ very much from baseline Italian

[@Jkenville91]

Wedge a stick to disable the grip safety

[@hjp14]

The M39 uses a similar locking system for its adjustable stock, although as a relatively new marksman rifle it is a bit more functional.

[@Nivola1953]

I see some comment below about the TZ Giandoso name story, since I'm not a firearms expert I've checked the Italian version of Wikipedia and found this " ... iniziali dei due progettisti (Tonon e Zorzoli), .... collaborazione con la fabbrica d'armi Società Anonima Revelli Manifattura Armiguerra, piu` cocnosciuta .... Armaguerra.... ma fu dislocata presso la ditta "fratelli Giandoso" di Gardone Val Trompia " So the correct names of the designers are TONON and ZORZOLI and the weapon was initially built by Armaguerra in Cremona but subsequently production was moved to the "Giandoso brothers" factory in Gardone V.T.

[@dutchdelights]

A bit late, but looking at the only other video of this gun being shot, the safety doesnt seem to be an issue when reloading. He just slides the bolt back with his "ammo hand" before insirting the magazine, the safety catch holds the bolt back before insirting the magazine. When magazine is in place he s ready to fire, looked quite natural so no need to let go of the triggergrip.

[@giulioespositi9052]

It is a wrong/stupid nickname: as everbody unterstand, simply, perfect design, and much better workmanship: than the contemporary very famous Sten

[@ethan5.56]

Other than the sights I think it looks pretty sweet

[@Spiz103]

I can imagine the manual of arms for this thing being a bit like it was on the L98A1 (the bolt action one, not the fancy semi cadets have now!). You keep your left hand on the magazine well when loading a magazine and load the magazine and charge the bolt with your right hand which is then replaced on the pistol grip. The location of the mag release makes it a little stranger but you could release the grip safety to work it, then replace your left hand on the safety before loading the magazine as I said.

[@StanislavG.]

Great vid Ian!

[@luigifrazzi]

Cremona, ohhh yeah !!!

[@patrikcath1025]

Thinking about it, the additional safety doesn't seem to really get in the way of reloading if you're right-handed. You stick the magazine in with your left hand, hold the front grip and push the gun back against your shoulder to hold it in place, and use your right hand to cycle the bolt which isn't locked because you're pressing the safety with your left hand.

[@DOGGEDROMAN]

the mag safety lever can be wedged open by folding a cleaning cloth and inserting it between the safety and the receiver

[@tc1817]

most shooters are right handed, so yes, they would have to take their hand away from the trigger to rack it, but it would not look nearly as awkward as it did when you did it...or when i would do it, since i'm a lefty too.

[@mr.gunzaku437]

Even the Italian last ditch weapons are nice! This looks more like a standard issue weapon instead of something you would see a nation on the edge of defeat making.

[@alexm566]

they probably knew they had no chance to win

[@user-ur7hl5ek6z]

Indeed , I never hear " Last Ditch " called except Type94 handgun last-produced model JPN.

[@vincenzocracolici7002]

About the names of the designers you're right

[@amandamyers5169]

Great video. Interesting SMG never seen one before. But that safety on the mag well would be a pain. I would have to do something with that.

[@aus71383]

Empty mag/bolt forward Inspect chamber/Lock bolt back Remove magazine Replace with full magazine Acquire grip and continue firing Since it's an open bolt gun, locking the bolt back after inserting the magazine might have never entered the designers' heads.

[@johnallanpoe1003]

in case someone needed some info about the guys who made the gun: "There is much confusion and misinformation concerning who designed and who manufactured the TZ 45. The idea seems to have become firmly entrenched and accepted as fact by many sources that the TZ 45 was designed by two brothers, Tonon and Zorzoli Giandoso. This bit of misinformation seems to have gained more credence by having been repeated, almost verbatim, by a significant number of Internet sites that obviously have borrowed from each other. However, the truth is that the weapon was in fact designed by two individuals unrelated to each other and that the Giandosos were not brothers, but father and son. The TZ 45 was designed by Aldo Zorzoli and a lieutenant colonel whose surname was Tonon who was the director of the SFARE in Gardone Val Trompia but whose first name remains unknown. The prototypes were tested at Piossasco, near Torino in August 1943, and series production was entrusted to the firm of Ermenegildo Giandoso and Son, located in Gardone.(correct. Three persons: Tonon, Zorzoli & Giandoso ) There is some indication that the receiver may have been manufactured by Luigi Franchi and the bolt by a company named Peverelli, leading to the suspicion that the TZ 45 was assembled by Giandoso (or possibly by SAMT - see following) from subcontracted parts rather than from in-house capabilities. A detailed line drawing exists of the Pistola mitra - Zorzoli, dated 26.6.43, indicating the Soc. Man. Meccanica Torinese (Società Manifattura Meccanica Torinese) as the manufacturer, with a manufacturing location at Piassasco (sic) and an office location in Torino; this adds a bit to some of the uncertainties concerning the weapon, as following the war the TZ 45 was marketed as the AZ 50 (AZ standing for Aldo Zorzoli) by the Società Anonima Meccanica Torinese (SAMT), with a manufacturing facility in or near Torino (likely Piossasco) and corporate or representational offices in Rome rather than Torino." taken from this forum: miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=58021546

[@PRODAt3]

You're not just wrong, you're VERY wrong on the names. It's TONON not Tony and ZORZOLI not Zorzolla, plus those are not their first names but their Family names. They however were freelancers who first pitched their project to the weapon factory of the Giandoso brothers, not the owners, that you got right.

[@workingguy6666]

One has to wonder just how many friendly-fire incidents (or reported as such) the Italians were having toward the end of the war that would - in a last-ditch effort - impose enough importance to create this style of safety.

[@neutronalchemist3241]

It's not cause the Italians had friendly-fire incidents that much of the SMGs designed after the war uses some kind of automatic bolt locking safety. It's that the experience of WWII taught that the main sources of incidents with those weapons was a hit in the back, that makes the bolt retreat enough to catch a round, and not enough to catch the sear, so cycling and accidentally discharging it. That's only a very simple (it's a last ditch weapon after all) way to solve that problem that, by 1945, was well known.