Form IV: Ataru - Description & Analysis

The fourth form of lightsaber combat, formally known as Ataru, also referred to as the Aggression Form and the Way of the Hawk-Bat.
All footage from Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace (1999) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones (2002) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (2005) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back (1980) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi (1983) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from the Star Wars: Clone Wars animated microseries (2003-2005) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from the Star Wars: The Clone Wars animated series (2008-2014) is property of Lucasfilm.

[@AntoineBandele]

The form best used as a supplement. Kenobi figured this out very quickly.

[@alonelychild]

He was a far wiser Jedi than Qui-Gon Jinn, as the latter himself admitted on Naboo

[@AntoineBandele]

Indeed.

[@AirbenderHawk]

True, I primarily use djem so in my lightsaber workouts and occasionally used Ataru for harder repetitions :-)

[@johanlindgren5801]

I disagree with that statment Obi-wan only learned this after the duel of fates on Naboo when is master died. It was only after that Kenobi began to see the flaw in the technic. He did learn it but he did it the hard way.

[@Mister-Thirteen]

As with all techniques this is only true of individuals, well I agree that in the case of Kenobi he was better suited towards form 3 we can't make this claim universal. That Said I do agree that form 4 is too taxing on the user to provide for a more tactically minded duelist, & too dependent on the environment further limiting one's options.

[@kevinnorwood8782]

Also, something you forgot to mention about Qui-Gon: Another reason that he lost that duel against Darth Maul was because in order for Ataru to be really effective, you need to be fighting in a wide open space when you use it. It is NOT a useful form in tight quarters.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Hence why Maul lured Qui-Gon there…

[@yoloswaggins5385]

Yeah darth maul probably figured that out after the first duel he had with qui gon jinn in the desert when qui gonn fought him off to a stalemate. I imagine darth maul was so good at lightsaber dueling that he realized this after one duel and decided to lure him to fighting in the tight quarters and separated him from obi wan kenobi thats the only way darth maul was able to defeat him in single combat then he probably figured obi wan wouldve been easy to handle being he was a padawan however his over confidence was his downfall as obi wan was a soresu master which is perfect for surviving with perfect defense until the adversary makes a mistake thats how he beat maul and anakin(darth vader) because they both made mistakes due to overconfidence in thier own abilities. But this doesnt work with count dooku as he is truly a master of blade combat makashi and in control of his emotions and abilities even when switching to the dark side dooku seemed to be in control of himself and observant probably why he never had sith eyes he never fully engulfed himself with emotion. And obi wan probably couldnt have beat sidious either simply because sidious has overwhelming power in the force that obi wan cant keep up with. He may put up a good fight though if it was just lightsaber combat i suspect idk if he would win but he would be a good fighter just unable to beat dooku or sidious for those reasons yet the perfect match for maul and anakin because of thier arrogance.

[@bwilson774]

Hence, Ataru is the trash form. It only ever wins on its own strength when you already outclass your opponent. Yoda is the single best example. He spent so many years years being a big fish in a little pond as soon as he faced an equal he got spanked just like qui gon jin

[@Hadex01]

@@bwilson774 Ataru gives you great speed which can Counter Form 5 Very Well as form 5 focuses a lot on raw power. Ataru is best for swiftly defeating opponents. Also, if you noticed, Yoda defeated Palpatine In Lightsaber Combat. Thats why in the next scene where Palpatine throws a buncha stuff at Yoda, He doesn't have his lightsaber, It's because Yoda knocked it off. Hence, He had to use his dark side force abilities which outclassed Yoda

[@bwilson774]

@@Hadex01 that's a fair point about Yoda vs Palpatine, but your view on form 4 vs form 5 is missing a detail. Form five also focuses on stonewall defense and immediate counter attacks while form 4 throws caution to the wind. Haphazardly increasing the volume of your strike against a form 5 master increases the chances of you getting hit with a counter attack. In an open space with lots of obstacles to jump over and dodge behind sure form 4 wins, but in an enclosed space with little room for agile movements like Luke vs Darth Vader in the hallway in tesb, form 5 wins. Form 4 was a very common lightsaber form in the prequel era, anakin cut down all of those jedi too. Granted anakin was naturally gifted in lightsaber combat, I'm just saying the form 4 vs form 5 argument requires context.

[@GAdmThrawn]

Who could dislike this already? It's a video about a lightsaber form. A really good video, I might add.

[@KaiserAfini]

Most likely warriors who do not appreciate the value of understanding an opponent's art and philosophy and how it paves the path to victory, insight which is harnessed in creating your tactics, Grand Admiral.

[@kaminoanproductions6847]

Good explanation.

[@jakemanda8615]

+KaiserAfini I have to ask are you kissing up because his profile picture is tThrawn, & his post is something Thrawn would say?

[@KaiserAfini]

Nah, just roleplaying because it seemed fun.

[@jakemanda8615]

+KaiserAfini lol. 😄

[@pretendmynameisclever3229]

I think it's so cool how we can now analyze Jedi lightsaber styles in such depth

[@vondorylaeum4784]

*keeps calm and waits for Niman*

[@deltave6361]

Same... I can't wait for his Niman description. I hope he acknowledges that it is the most underrated form, and gives it some glory. Most people don't realize that, when used tactically, and with more energy, it is as powerful as your training permits it to be... and could even surpass masters of textbook forms by applying whatever techniques from other forms the situation requires.

[@vondorylaeum4784]

Agreed. Niman is the best form out there but no one gives it any credit.

[@TheSunStudio1]

+Loncho Gassagen Best form only if you truly mastered it.

[@deltave6361]

+TheSunStudio1 Well, the Jedi Niman is really just the training Niman. When you get good at it, you can get on Starkiller's lightsaber combat level.

[@TheSunStudio1]

Rebel Trooper Starkiller never was a top tier duellist... Plus, it's extremely hard to master.

[@zacharyo3824]

I like how instead of changing forms to suit his tall and strong body type he simply adjusted ataru to suit his body making his version of ataru to be unique to him.

[@ZenodAnderson]

What did Jinn do exactly that made it so different?

[@darkjedie5571]

​@ZenodAnderson this form is a light and fast but master qui gon he made it hard and fast plus he stayed on the ground

[@ariesstorm9577]

Despite Ataru's lack of defensive capabilities, Qui-Gon put up a decent defence against Darth Maul in the Theed reactor core room. Although it is widely accepted that it was a combination of the Form's lack of dedicated defensive coverage and fatigue that lead to his death, it should be noted that Qui-Gon had never fought anybody armed with a double-bladed lightsaber before. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were also both skilled in defending against opponents armed with blasters (although I'm not sure whether this was basic Soresu or Shien sequences integrated into their Ataru style). As always Jensaarai1 you have presented a well thought out video and analysis of one of the lightsaber forms. Keep up the good work :-)

[@ariesstorm9577]

+Jensaarai1 Also, I realise I am one of those who tried to argue that Qui-Gon Jinn was a Djem So (or Form V in general) practitioner. I apologise and, after re-watching the duel of fates several times and understanding that Qui-Gon simply employed less acrobatics but still maintained using his entire body into his attacks, I now fully accept him as a Form IV master.

[@clownplayer7265]

Then again, one can overcome the weaknesses with the correct training or mindset, but yeah, Darth Maul come on on top there by being a better warrior. Obi Wan himself managed to turn the tables by being more observant and take away Maul's double saber advantage.

[@matthewmann8969]

The Acrobatics, Speed, Athleticism, Whole Body As A Weapon Etc is a amazing form but if you lack stamina and run out of short bursts quick this form is not for yoy

[@14dcook]

Agreed. Master Yoy should avoid this form.

[@Hadex01]

Master Qoy should also avoid this form

[@whynaut1]

Consider this: what if Ataru was so popular during the Golden Age because of its hand-to-hand component? Turning the aggressive sword stance into a peaceful means to apprehend the bad guys

[@99thJediWarrior]

Hmm, the description of Anakin and Obi-Wan's sparring match in Wild Space sounded a lot like the practice that Hayden Christensen and Ewan McGregor had when they were rehearsing the fight for Episode III.

[@geoffreyedgson7875]

I really enjoy this video, and have one additional theory regarding how widely popular Ataru is. It's emphasis is on ending a fight as quickly and efficiently as possible rather than employing domineering power or prolonging conflicts unnecessarily. This would like make it popular with the Jedi since it would not result in avoidable prolonged conflicts. Especially compared to other styles that focused on enduring and persevering: Soresu and Djem So/Shien.

[@geocross237]

Just my 2 cents, but I think another aspect that makes Ataru attractive is that of all the 7 forms Ataru gives a Jedi the most raw physical connection to the Force. Form IV fighters essentially train to make the Force flow through them as naturally as the blood in their veins and the air in their lungs. I think that's the core of Ataru's "spiritual" component.

[@DiedrichKnickerbocker1783]

@@geocross237 I think why it's so popular is that writers and or audiences enjoy powers and acrobatics. Everybody loves fireworks.

[@geocross237]

@@DiedrichKnickerbocker1783 obviously but I was trying to come up with a more contextual answer

[@DiedrichKnickerbocker1783]

@@geocross237 Ah, writing a book are we?

[@Jedilord882]

@@geocross237 to be fair all jedi & sith are utilizing force enhanced condition when engaged in lightsaber combat

[@alexalexalex92]

If I may offer a suggestion: While the form is definitely not well-suited against multiple skilled duelists, isn't it broadly applicable against fighters who bring larger numbers but a substantial lack of comparative talent? Think of Zallow's dispatching of two Sith Lords before he dodged Malgus' saber throw, or the performance Shaak Ti gave against the Magnaguards in the micro-series, or Satele Shan's advance toward Malgus in the Hope trailer. To me, that aspect of the style seems almost like a revision of Shii-Cho, providing a more refined approach to cutting through swaths of enemies while working in nuanced counter-attacks. A solid Tier-Two Ataru specialist, I think, could easily carve through half a dozen mid-level Jedi Knights, while an adherent to another style would have more trouble or simply take longer. I absolutely agree that the style is incomplete in itself, and a far better supplement than an independent fighting technique. But how would you judge it as a group-fighting form, especially in the hands of a highly skilled practitioner? Also, thanks for not touting Yoda too much with his Ataru mastery. He's unquestionably a high-level master, sure, but completely by necessity. Even the staunchest defender of his form can't reasonably argue that if he was scaled up to the size of a normal humanoid, he would have still gone the Form IV route. His outlook is far more in line with Soresu or Niman, or possibly Shien or even Makashi--Ataru is nowhere near the best choice for him, and I see his textbook application as him basically having resigned himself to the fact that it's all he has to work with.

[@clownplayer7265]

It can work that way. Besides, if Yoda could effectivelly use the style agains multiple oponents with blasters with no issues, then the weaknesses might be just soft counters that can be overcome with enough skill and wisdom.

[@AirbenderHawk]

Form IV is my favorite supplement form in my martial arts workout, making it fun during my repetitions and admittedly, it's tiring and djem so is my main I use during warmups.

[@piercewise2232]

How do you practice Djem So?

[@AirbenderHawk]

+Pierce Wise basically, I use its counterattack techniques for hardcore repetitions and the spin that Anakin did in the duel is what I also do to intensify the workout.

[@jeremyhicks8709]

+Antonio Reyes what about niman?

[@AirbenderHawk]

Jeremy Hicks I too practiced that as well :-)

[@filipinogopnik4161]

to master 4 and 5 is to practice the basics as it is the foundation of your style "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

[@lyconxero457]

I'm really digging these updated abridged videos. You've gotten much better about getting to the point quickly while stating your sources without meandering.

[@math6844]

I would remain a Soresu and Niman master during a fight, being slow, calculating and calm. When your enemy is tired and their spirit is broken, some supplementary Ataru would easily finish the job with a exhausted and broken opponent.

[@math6844]

Basically, remain a brick wall until the time is right. When it is, strike with ferocity.

[@filipinogopnik4161]

if your fighting many enemies, the basic form or shii cho is a advantageous form.

[@kristijanmadhukar516]

Or you could just use Ataru and finish the fight in seconds.

[@snoopyrogue359]

No mention of Ahsoka... even though she was a Padawan, and not a Jedi, she was an excellent Ataru specialist

[@akeiltheseal]

because he's biased against the new stuff.

[@JohnMasterCheif]

because most of it is utter shit. either it's a carbon copy of already good stuff, with barely any changes (most of which would be in visuals...Rebels being the exception) or with writing that is so bad, that it either is filled with contempt for its audience and treats them like mouth drooling retards, or they should literally go back to relearn basic story telling.

[@akeiltheseal]

+JohnMasterCheif triggered much?

[@JohnMasterCheif]

no, just stating truth

[@jonas1015119]

+JohnMasterCheif truth about whether you like a story or don't? I've met people defending Ep I as the BEST movie. Of all 6 (no 7 at the time)

[@devinwood2713]

it is also worth mentioning that the acrobatic nature of ataru is reccomended but isnt necessary qui gon took that emphasis when he modernized it during his time as a jedi the reason he lost was because he had been fighting for a better part of that day and was already fatigued before maul entered the picture

[@DarthWill3]

Yoda writes this as a side note in _The Jedi Path:_ "Against multiple opponents, only a true Ataru master will prevail." He wasn't lying, I can tell you that much. Other Ataru practitioners would be Ahsoka Tano, Shaak Ti, Darth Maul, Kit Fisto, Plo Koon, Quinlan Vos, and Mara Jade Skywalker.

[@mikhailvasiliev6275]

You seem pretty optimized to answer a question I've had, so lemme ask.. WHY is it so bad against multiple opponents? Yeah there's the lack of defense, but I'd imagine the dynamic and broad bladework would compensate for that, as it would make lashing out at multiple people far more cut & dry.

[@DarthWill3]

It all depends on how fast and agile you are.

[@ironinquisitor3656]

+DarthWill3 I thought Plo Koon was Djem So not Ataru.

[@DarthWill3]

He uses both forms.

[@ironinquisitor3656]

Makes sense now that I think about it.

[@jon636374]

I read a description of Atarus defense as being either intercepting the enemies attack with another attack and just smack it away or to just get the hell out of the way.

[@animore8626]

Pretty accurate yeah lol. Love how defense in Ataru is just "SHIT GOTTA MOVE"

[@ironinquisitor3656]

That makes a lot of sense.

[@Jedilord882]

Pretty much. In Sidious’ duel with Yoda in Clone Wars, Yoda either completely avoids a strike from Sidious (via an acrobatic) or deflects it entirely (via a strike of his own, aka a deflecting slash). He NEVER locks blades with Sidious to defend against an attack. He’s an exemplary representative of Ataru.

[@TheGhostDogg100]

Shak-ti is another great example. Anyway I think this is your best lightsaber analysis video yet. Keep up the good work!

[@omnitool1586]

Correction: the source for the Fightsaber article comes from Star Wars Insider 62 (2002). Star Wars Insider 27 came out in 1995, well before lightsaber forms were a thing. Also, it's about time you give Yoda his respect as the premier lightsaber duelist with the Ataru form. And no, Jinn was not labelled as an Ataru specialist from day one. The article, as I listed above (and if you read the publication date of Fightsaber) was 2002, three years after the release of Episode 1.

[@SamuraiJedi7]

I always saw his issues with Yoda more with how Yoda doesn't do anything with his knowledge of the forms and instead relies on perfect textbook applications of the forms over making a personal technique.

[@alonelychild]

+Jensaarai1 what is your attitude towards Grand Master Yoda? Why is it negative?

[@omnitool1586]

alonelychild He uses head canon to defame Yoda, when Yoda has _several_ showings/statements like these to back him up: "She had attended a lecture about battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now. Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers. "Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives." And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him." _Darth Maul Shadow Hunter_ "To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen." _Star Wars Insider 62: Fightsaber_ "With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled." _Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force_ "Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council." _Darth Maul Shadow Hunter_ (These are all statements Jensaarai1 has yet to come to terms with). "Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat." _Power of the Jedi Sourcebook_ And you'll _never_ hear Jensaari1 mention this undervalued showing form Yoda: "As the podium rose into the Senate arena, the fight intensified. Twice, Yoda came near to pushing Palpatine over the edge. They were high enough now that a fall could be fatal, even to a Sith Lord. Or a Jedi Master. The cramped space within the pod left little room for maneuvering. "_An end, I must make._ Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another - and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow." _Revenge of the Sith junior novel_ ^ The only explanation in the lore that explains why Sidious no longer had his lightsaber when the fight cuts back to Yoda vs Sidious.

[@memine8795]

+Jensaarai1 Okay I know Jinn is an Ataru fighter, but wouldn't it make alittle more since for him to use Djem so, just saying

[@omnitool1586]

Zarrok1138 LMAO! Dooku's Force choke against Kenobi while contending with him and Anakin says otherwise.

[@deadponic117]

i'd also like to point out that with the mention of suggesting that ataru be used in small bursts, qui gon fought darth maul 15 minutes straight, non stop, using ataru and only got tired during the end when maul began to press him, yoda, in his bout with count dooku in AOTC, executed several en-su ma rotations with 3 of the other su ma rotations to evade and counter dooku's attacks, in ROTS, as soon as Palpatine tried to flee, yoda blocked his way and opened with a challenge, Sidious answered accordingly, then yoda begins his ataru onslaught. I would label Qui Gon as the master up until attack of the clones, because that's where Yoda took over his mantle

[@jakemanda8615]

Let me say this, Ataru is one of the hardest standard jedi forms. it requires you to push the enemy. no breaks, no stopping, just pushing that is why it seemingly has no defenses. an Ataru master can use it to effectively block.

[@xBiggs]

Will you be doing one whole video for form V or splitting them into Djem So and Shien?

[@thatcookiecat]

ataru is also an anime character from Urusei Yatsura and he’d probably use something like this to evade Lum.

[@karunsagar1773]

Ataru does have the application of evasion

[@darkjedirichardo]

I think Form IV would be best used either at the start to try and end a fight quickly and if that fails fall back onto Form VI for adaptability and energy-efficiency. Or use Form VI first to wait your opponent out until they tire and then overwhelm them with Form IV.

[@fearthepiggaming2998]

Hey Jensaarai I know it has nothing to do with this video specifically but what would be a good form compliment to form 6. I feel like Makashi would go well but I also asking you cuz I'm not sure.

[@geoffreyedgson7875]

I love these new Lightsaber Form videos. I do have one minor recommendation though. When you referenced Kenobi's use of "channeling the force of Darth Maul's kick into a backflip." This wording was a little confusing between the mystical Force and kinetic force. "Channeling the Force" is a common phrase is Star Wars media and might be confusing again in your upcoming Form V video, especially since Djem So beadwork makes the heaviest use of kinetic force.

[@erinv1232]

This was worth the wait

[@NightcrawlerNC]

Ataru and shien both go well

[@zenethis92]

Love these videos! Can't wait for the next one

[@AlexanderDiviFilius]

Damn subscription box, I shouldn't be finding out about this video now.

[@jsb1585]

I have to say, I did miss the music which you included in the original video and the "poster boy" feature at the end of the video. Still, a great video.

[@noahweathers4408]

If Shii-Cho is my sixth preferred style, and Niman my fifth, then Ataru is in fourth place. I could see myself countering the weakness of Form Four by incorporating Soresu-style blocks, but I don’t think I have the stamina to keep the offensive going. Good, but not excellent.

[@kevinnorwood8782]

When you do Djem-So in this new series, could you do something for me, Jensaarai1? I know that the last time you talked about Djem-So, you said that Darth Vader was the "poster boy" for this particular Lightsaber style, but when you get to Djem-So in this series, could you put some emphasis on Luke Skywalker as well? I ask this because, while I agree with your reasoning for Darth Vader being the poster boy of Djem-So, I feel that Luke was also very much the personification of what Djem-So is all about. In fact, for me personally, Luke is the main reason why Djem-So is my favorite Lightsaber fighting style, and the one that I would primarily use if I was a Jedi. You could describe them as "Darth Vader was the poster boy for Dark Side Djem-So, but Luke was the poster boy for Light Side Djem-So."

[@Jackaal77]

Excellent video as always, I enjoyed how concise you are in your description of the each style. When are you going to release the next video.

[@Eltrio2]

I wonder if he'll do form five in two separate videos for Shien and Djem So respectively or just do one video. Either way, can't wait. :D

[@enordacgregorovitch2715]

Do you think it's possible to do versus series with KotFE characters like Arcann or Vaylin ?

[@lewisalexander7075]

You mentioned Yoda only appeared in 5/6 movies. Do you not consider Ep. VII one of the movies? (PS - I'm not asking in an accusatory way, just curious)

[@AntoineBandele]

Disembodied voices generally don't count.

[@lewisalexander7075]

+Antoine Bandele I'm saying it would be 5 out of the 7 movies (not counting the Clone Wars film).

[@AntoineBandele]

That's a fair pint Dancing Deity. It really is outside Lucas's intention now.

[@avatarmufasa3628]

In my view, GL gave up his powers as 'star wars God' when he sold the rights to disney, he gave a written agreement that they would take over, with the understanding that they have power over the story now. DU does have lightsaber forms, they just have yet to be featured as heavily as in the EU, though hopefully we'll get a novel sooner or later that describes it nicely (come on Luceno, write a Qui-Gon/Dooku novel)

[@avatarmufasa3628]

Im more thn aware that financially it works that way. But my point was also to illustrate that he still 'gave it away', he didnt have to do this, hes rich, he couldve kept his universe forever, it wasnt forced out of his hands, he gave it away, knowing that they may indeed not fulfil his vision, that he would have to take a step out, because he cant rule his vision like a dictator (the quote escapes me, but i can look it up if you like). I dont see what donating to charity does for this, its an incredibly nice gesture on his part, Im sure he helped lots of people, but its not relevant to star wars. If GL had died, then he couldnt give it away (unless its in a will), thats different, in that situation control is forcibly removed from him, he just cant provide any resistance. Tolkien isnt around, and he never gave it away (to my knowledge), it was just his GL is the creator, but ownership of the franchise, not just legally, but all its ideas contributing to it, and the acknowledgement that Disney, guided by lucasfilm is in charge is in that contract. In short, he was God and appointed someone else to be that instead, this is my perception anyway Glad you like the Luceno idea, I mean come on, he would be the person to bring forms back on a bigger level, plus, as the cast highlighted in the 2nd part of darth plagueis novel, one of my fav parts was the quigon, dooku scene.

[@kevinnorwood8782]

I think Yoda's size alone is one of the primary reasons why he is considered such a pinnacle master of Ataru. If you're trying to hit vital structures on your enemy's body, you're just not going to be able to reach them if you're just staying at that height. You want to be jumping higher than your normal height to reach the vital target areas of your enemy's body. Also, I think Yoda's species is meant to be a tree-climbing species, so that's why he uses a lot of jumps and acrobatics when he fights. But I don't think Luke used Ataru that much, at least in the movies. Whenever Luke did a flip in his two fights with Vader, it was always to evade an attack FROM Vader. If you watch the first round of their duel in Empire Strikes Back, Luke does that somersault over Vader to dodge his attack, and then IMMEDIATELY switches back to Djem-So to put Vader on the defensive.

[@peterstamerra445]

I’ve found great success in mixing form 3 with form 4. I’m able to wait for my enemy to tire out with form3, then overwhelm them with form 4

[@williamsullivan7818]

I would be an ataru, Shii cho user. I would be a battle field monster with capable levels of skill in single combat. When I duel with my friends I Smash into them like a bull and when I am on the defencive I am left scrambling since I friend Ben who is a fencer and Prefers makashi gets that is a perfect answer to my ataru ,shii cho fighting style. I Have recently tried to practice Shien as a form of defence. Keeps my skill on the battlefield high and enhances my skill in single combat.

[@raphaelhanna8345]

i do think that if qui gon jinn were trained in djem so he probably would have fared better against darth maul as i could see djem so being effective against him but i do understand the reasoning that qui gon trained in ataru because it was more practical in the combat situations he got involved in where lightsaber to lightsaber combat rarely ever happened had there been more enemy lightsaber duellists around or had qui gon survived his fight with darth maul he probably would have decided to train more in djem so to prepare for such conflicts

[@NeXoN369]

Are you planning to make a video on Jar'kai aswell? Even if it is not one of the forms.

[@rowangallagher4579]

Proper Djem so would have saved Qui Gon's life.

[@aphirin3848]

No mual used seven so still would have got killed

[@s4xtt]

I read somewhere that Ataru was a style during the Jedi's feud with Mandalorian to combat their aerial assault, can someone help me verify this

[@robgeorge4581]

Like always, a well done video. I see Yoda as the premier example of a textbook Ataru specialist over Ven Zallow though due his perfect execution of the basics. I agree that he is not the greatest lightsaber master of his era (to me that's either Kenobi or Mace Windu). But he is the greatest academic master of lightsaber combat of his era. Personally though, there is something in me that thinks Qui-Gon Jinn took Ataru, saw Djem So though "hey lets try some of those moves out" and incorporated them into Ataru in a "lazy prodigy" sense of things. But then again, that's just me.

[@DB6195]

Yoda's body type prevents him being used as a proper example of how humanoid bipeds would execute the form

[@robgeorge4581]

DB6195 I was referring to his execution of the su ma rotations.

[@Mister-Thirteen]

I'd argue that Yoda's body type actually helps his execution of the form. His size combined with his low center of gravity gives him three distinct advantages. One, he doesn't need to expend as much energy in rotation or in leaps as a result of the lower mass compared to a taller duelist. Tow, his attacks force an opponent to fight in low guard leaving their upper bodies open to the sudden leaps in the form. And three, his shorter limbs make it more difficult for an opponent to take advantage of the form predictability during rotation and target an outstretched limb (Anikin vs Kenboi). Yoda's body offers different challenges but also different advantages.

[@robgeorge4581]

Mr.Northwind That is a really good point. His small size forces his opponent open to an extend due to having to fight in a low guard. That being said, his small stature gave him little to no reach and leverage backed up with using a shoto lightsaber. If you increased his hight by 1 foot, a lot of Yoda's issues physically (not including old age issues) would be minimized.

[@SebiKoerner]

Are those Satil Shan scenes from a game?

[@Nick_792]

Hey is that the halo 4 soundtrack i hear? do we have a fan? cuz i am.

[@cobracommander3634]

Jensaari1 keep it up man I'm a big fan!

[@lakkakka]

As a martial artist I’ll have to say that if you plan on twirling, turning and twisting a lot. The best stance is your everyday neutral stance. Aka standing straight. This gives you te freedom to quickly change into any direction at will that low stance seems like a bs move to make it look more martial artsy.

[@KarusMBII]

The low stance is a pre-jump stance, not a pre-combat stance. But I agree.

[@blackhoodie4170]

Dominick Cruz style

[@snaz9461]

What form does Anikan use

[@BuiTrung-kk4gb]

a form that I heavily recommend abusing in sparring sessions to improve baseline fitness. But in combat, I only want my padawan to adopt a mixture of Soresu, Makashi and Shii-Cho, be simple and economical, with Ataru being saved for big leaps for retreat.

[@noahweathers4408]

I have attempted to guess which lightsaber styles had the biggest influence on the fighting techniques of Mysterious Heroine X and her clone, Mysterious Heroine X Alter in Fate/Grand Order. Based on her impressive speed, dexterity, agility and aggression, I would say MHX primarily uses Ataru and Vaapad moves, though from what I’ve seen, there may be some Shii-Cho maneuvers as well. MHX Alter uses ferocious, heavy attacks, so I would guess she’s inspired by Djem So, while her incorporations of force lightning and the implied use of force choke in one of her skills suggests some skill in Niman as well. Both MHX and X Alter do incorporate aspects of Jar’Kai, MHX through her dual swords and X Alter through her saberstaff. I will admit much of this is speculation, but I would guess Mysterious Heroine X is an Ataru and Form VII specialist, using her great speed and agility to swiftly and ferociously overwhelm her opponents in a flurry of strikes. Mysterious Heroine X Alter prefers to overwhelm her enemies through powerful leaping slashes or vicious sweeping blows of her dual lightsaber, suggesting a focus on Forms Five and Seven, with hints of Six. Let me know what you think of my speculation, and thank you for these videos. I do enjoy hearing about the technical aspects of lightsaber combat.

[@lapplandkun9273]

fully agree. Saw your comment elsewhere on a SW/Fate story involving MHX and MHX alter. Glad to see you

[@noahweathers4408]

@@lapplandkun9273 Glad to hear it. I’m still working on that. The MHX and MHX Alter story takes place in the world of Fate/Requiem, where the two Servantverse heroes contrast against the native Heroic Spirits. Thus they are far from the only ones who’ll get the spotlight. I’m working on a few other stories as well.

[@alonelychild]

This article was published when?

[@Carblesnarky]

Ok if you are a player of SWTOR, it's easy to look at the trailers and see what the characters are representing. Satale Shan is a Niman master. It best fits what saberstaff wielders in the period were doing. Malgus is heavy into Soresu, Shien, and Shii-Cho, same for Ven Zallow. Kao Cen Darach and Vindican are both Niman users as well. Obviously Bioware's story team are not slaves to game mechanics but part of the point of the trailers was to show off this sort of thing off. Most characters in them correspond to an advanced class and an ability set. This also goes for characters like Shae Vizla, Nico Okarr, and Jace Malcom.

[@benkenobi6719]

Satele Shan and Ven Zallow are Ataru user. Malgus and Darth Vindican are Djem So user. Kao Cen Darach is a Niman user(Jar´kai too).

[@Carblesnarky]

Got a source? Because the game they are in doesn't reflect that.

[@Phoenix_254]

There are no official sources for Satele, Ver or Kao. Satele is widely accepted as an Ataru specialist due to her heavy use of acrobatics and preference to dodge her opponents attacks rather than take them head on. The saber staff isn't an indicator of any specific form since it can be adapted to the majority of them (Makashi being an outlier due to the increased difficulty in thrusting). The use of a Saberstaff in Ataru is a tradeoff. You gain more options to attack, but the longer blades mean that the intricate moves of ataru have to be simplified and so it loses effectiveness with one on one duels. In short, excellent for battlefields, not some much for dueling. Ven Zallow displayed many of the same characteristics where his moves were added to by spins, jumps and deft footwork to get around his opponents defenses and cut them down and another indicator of his Ataru is his reverting to acrobatics after blocking several of malgus's strikes. He was backing up and on his back foot only surviving by jumping far enough away from Malgus to recover. Kao is skilled in all seven given his Battlemaster title but seems to prefer Niman with a bit of Ataru. The Niman aspect showed in his Jar'Kai and his integration of his force abilities while Ataru showed up to a lesser extent in his own acrobatics. Vindican doesn't have a widely accepted or official style though Jenssari1 theorized that he used the Shien Branch of form V.

[@KaiserAfini]

Would it be correct to say, regarding the attack and energy intensive forms, that Ataru trades defense for speed, Shien/Djem So trades it for power and Juuyo exchanges it for unpredictability ?

[@trrebi981]

Well djem so/shine is more of a parrying counterattack style that emphasizes control of what your opponent is allowed to throw at you.

[@tedculbertson6320]

I would agree with you, except that Shien/Djem So typically maintains a strong defense. Form V trades mobility for a strong defense and offense.

[@KaiserAfini]

I see what you mean, I meant more along the lines of power attacks but a strong defense is also a key component. Form V is interesting because it is essentially Soresu with a Makashi mentality, ironically making it the opposite of Form II (strength and grounded defenses over finesse and footwork) and its perfect counter.

[@kasen338]

Great vid! I really love this form but i practice the more qui gon side of it because i cant do flips i just use the speed spins and rolls, not sure this is my true form someone help cuz i wanna know!

[@edwaiwood2416]

Cant wait for Form V.

[@tedculbertson6320]

Ataru always seemed like the weakest form to me (on its own, it could be pretty strong when combined with another form). It has more obvious and enumerable weaknesses than any other, and Yoda seems like the only Ataru specialist with a lot of dueling success. Can somebody prove me wrong, or does Ataru just suck?

[@snoopyrogue359]

Ataru shouldn't be used as your main form because you would only get tired easily, it's good if u use with another form, like Makashi, Sorecu, or Digem So

[@Alexzander1989]

Jensaaria1 and EvanNova95 mentioned this in their colab, Ven Zallow vs Qui-Gon Jinn, when one examines the Ataru form and what it provides, that being an fast and aggressive offense, unarmed combat, and dual blade fencing, it becomes clear that Ataru was meant to serve as a supplementary form. Not something to be solely relied on. Best way to use Ataru, is to combine it with another form. For me personally, I'd pick Djem So, Soresu, and Ataru if I was a lightsaber duelist

[@conallkingshott4597]

I agree it needs to be used in conjunction but saying is sucks is a bit much

[@tedculbertson6320]

OK, I agree. It can be effective when used in conjunction with another form. So are all the characters who use it alone just stupid?

[@akeiltheseal]

if one person decides to go full on ataru, its up to them how well they use it. Both grandmasters used it and qui gon was pretty good at it. In the end you could say that for every lightsaber form since most of this is in theory

[@historygeek2411]

I can see myself being good at djem so or juyo, I cannot out up a great or prolonged defense but I excel at bursts of high speed offensives and counter attacks.

[@themrmezbah]

your channel is great

[@rayden120]

It's interesting how this form is bad against multiple opponents but you see them take out multiple opponents but I guess form 1 must help with that since their both similar

[@SoftisNelaris]

I think that the weakness against multiple opponents is only inherent in the manuvers of Form IV, but masters of the form (I.E. Ven Zallow, Qui-Gon Jinn, Satele Shan, etc) get around it by committing to their offense and channeling the kinetic energy of each strike into their next one. Basically, they are just executing a chain of single-target takedowns at blinding speed that they blur into each other.

[@Zaphryous]

I personally think you use "Unarmed Combat Techs" instead of "Physical Combat Techs" when referring to attacking without using a weapon. It would be easier for newer viewers to understand. Seeing as attacking with a weapon can be considered "Physical Combat Techs"

[@xxedgy_outsiderxx9978]

is this still canon cause people who hate the prequel fights for their acrobatics are annoying the hell out of me

[@jonas1015119]

The Inquisitor in Rebels mentioned Kanan using the same form as his master and I think names one, so the general concept, probably.

[@xxedgy_outsiderxx9978]

thank you

[@jakemanda8615]

this stuff isn't canon yet, but because Disney has ripped off so many legends things, it may be the "rough draft" of lightsaber combat forms in Disney's canon.

[@MarxistJediist]

Yeah, it is canon. They're reintroduced in "Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know", which was released in September last year, well after the canon reboot, and as MegaCreepermann said they're mentioned in Rebels as well.

[@sithguy1704]

I see too many holes in this form mean all of them have holes but I just don't think the risk is worth the reward in this fighting Style it kind of reminds me of and I hope I'm spelling it right Kappa wetta fighting Style where's a lot of spins and movements and if you land you can do some real real damage but you use so much energy and you leave yourself open

[@treblazer]

how come he's got three axis of rotation but in the Vader v Yoda video he only had one?🤔

[@Railfan105.]

8:20 Master Anakin? Master Windu will be mad when he hears the news.

[@brucejedilee5290]

Why do you say five out of the six films when there are seven films?

[@rex74t]

Ataru my favorite form

[@Over10rDPrime]

Can't wait for Juyo :)

[@MastaKilla63]

Sorry, it hasn't. It had the main default profile picture (of the blue background with the head and shoulders) on one of my browsers. Its of your chosen one on my tablet.

[@brycetomecek5065]

This is only useful as only a sprint or burst. Unless you transcend mortals like Yoda, it’s basically only useful for quick attacks.

[@petergohan]

if grievous could use the force i think this form would be so much devastating with him, because as a cyborg his stamina would be basically infinite and so one of the weaknesses of the form would be covered, right?

[@johanlindgren5801]

Where is the next one, I am locking forward to them.

[@josephmcfadden6833]

When's Juyo, and vaapad, coming?

[@darthgrayson8449]

I disagree that this form has zero defense because even teakwondo and other highly acrobatic fighting styles has some level of defense.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

The movement in Ataru is the defense - you don’t really block, you just aren’t there.

[@ironinquisitor3656]

Or intercepting the enemies attack with another attack and just smacking it away as another defensive maneuver as another user in the comment section here pointed out.

[@AAB4ttery]

This form has charm but its use to me becomes very limited. I could imagine someone who uses ataru having the upper hand in the early game and throwing their opponent off balance, but there lies the problem with this form. If the user of this form does not eliminate their opponent in the early duel, it’s over. This is why ataru never impressed me all too much with exceptions like Yoda. It’s definitely a form that could compliment other forms, but by itself it’s utterly useless if the opponent knows how to put on a good defense. Ataru could definitely be used in the late game after reading your opponents defenses and figuring out the best offense for it, but I still stick by my Djem So instead of Ataru.

[@blackpowderkun]

In a duel yes but remember before the clone wars most of the Jedi's enemy are just thugs and criminals ataru can get the job done quick with addition to unarmed combat for a non lethal measure.

[@AAB4ttery]

@@blackpowderkun Yes but I’d imagine it’d only need to be used as a spice. In fact, I’d recommend Form V: Shien core sprinkled with slight ataru for hand to hand combat.

[@kristijanmadhukar516]

In a prolonged confrontation this form is shit. As it is highly risky and takes up too much stamina. but if you wanna get things done quickly and without hassle this works.

[@benjaminjones2185]

Though he is an Ataru master Qui Gon was using Shii-Cho during his duel with Maul.

[@dazdavis7896]

What Comic were those pictures you used during the Wild Space Novel example, because that’s a novel, it didn’t have any illustrations. But I know I’ve seen that comic before you used right before it. Is it a Star Wars Republic Issue?? And I didn’t even know anybody DID think Qui-Gon was a Djem So specialist. I mean, that’s pretty obvious if you’ve read even one pre-Ep1 comic series, or if you’ve the read Jedi Apprentice novels, or mainly, just watched Ep1 itself. It was pretty damn clear. Nobody used martial arts mixed in with those “spin moves” the way Qui-Gon Jinn did. He was pure, orthodox Ataru in its entirety.

[@Freethinker_94]

great video

[@ryanbutler544]

I thought that Anakin was a Form V specialist?

[@jacobt1027]

He was,but he also studied form IV as a supplement.

[@ariesstorm9577]

I think most of his years as a Padawan he favoured Form IV, as sources like the Fightsaber article state that Anakin has begun the study of Form V. When he first faces his Dooku his immediate reaction is to launch into Ataru, only later switching to Form V which allowed him to last a little longer in the duel. Three years of fighting in the clone wars would be where Anakin focused on and mastered Form V, complemented by his previous years of studying Form IV

[@MarxistJediist]

This is my least favourite of the forms. I agree that it's best used in short bursts at opportune moments, but even then, it seems too easy to overextend or overcommit. I'm of the opinion that "the best offense is a good defense." That is, of course, a general statement. It's easy to imagine circumstances in which short bursts of focused aggression can be the best approach (although many such circumstances would involve a need to quickly reduce a large group of opponents down to "bite-sized chunks", or a single opponent). I suppose it also makes sense for combatants who cannot afford to stand their ground.

[@silverfangmoonhunter]

I'm still miffed that they decided to make THIS Yoda's form of choice. It goes against everything we knew about Yoda. A flippy dippy form that's quick to burn out being mained by a nearly millennia old fountain of wisdom who values patience and restraint? Whose idea was that?

[@kristijanmadhukar516]

Silver Fang Yoda is small. So he can utilize the form even in enclosed spaces. It uses the force to move. And Yoda is physically weak but powerful in the force. And this form uses utilizes the force rather than physical prowess. And a small fast little flying green goblin slashing at you is terrifying.

[@KarusMBII]

That's exactly the point. It's unexpected. You expect a small, fragile looking creature to move slowly, out of fashion and in a predictable way; that's not the case. His ideology and beliefs are evident from the way he fights, too. A total reliance and bond with the force, to move in ways beyond possible without it. Makes sense to me.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

He’s also not physically strong, so speed is what he has. He’s not going to be able to block things with brute force. I was expecting more a Niman style where the saber was just a tool in hand while primarily using force powers, but using the force for attack is problematic so Ataru is it.

[@CodyHeldreth]

So just to recap: During Clone Wars era form I specialist: Kit Fisto, form II: Count Dooku, form III: Obi Wan Kenobi, form IV: Yoda, form V: Anakin Skywalker, form VI: ???, form VII: Mace Windu. Any Clone Wars form VI masters? The circle must be completed!

[@kevinshupenia276]

Shak Ti I believe. Friend of Jensaarai1 here.

[@Ronfost89]

Ti used form II and IV

[@kevinshupenia276]

Crap. Lol. I need to borrow jensaarai's character analysis notebook....

[@Ronfost89]

+kevin Shupenia I literally just watched a Ti video so I cheated hehe. I can't think of any prominent clone wars form VI master that's worth talking about though honestly.

[@snoopyrogue359]

The most popular Clone Wars Form 6 master is Cin Draligg

[@toaofaotearoa2146]

I would take on ataru and create a defensive technique from soresu

[@calebolds9609]

wasn't Galen Merek also an Ataru user?

[@Phoenix_254]

No, He used Soresu, Shien branch of form V and Juyo.

[@MastaKilla63]

Your profile picture changed. Don't tell me this has something to do with your account standing.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

Fair point but to me, Qui-Gon seems more Djem So/Shien then an Ataru master, as he seemed so focused on his strength. Where as Obi-wan and Maul were both much lighter and acrobatic.

[@CommandoNarco12]

Based on his use of strength, I agree with your assessment. However, I would also remember this: Just because a combatant uses less speed and more strength, it does not mean that they are using an entirely different martial art. While more strength-based, his move sets still emphasize dynamic full-body movements, integration of physical strikes, and rapid offensive sequences rather than the defend-and-counter tenant of Form V. Qui-Gon's approach is still that of an Ataru specialist, he comes at you fast and attempts to take you down quickly; he does not attempt to dominate the engagement by keeping you in his center line and launching strength-based counteroffensives. So in my view, the mechanics and tactics of his technique heavily indicate Ataru specialization.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

Spectre7 Fair enough good points raised by both of you.

[@alonelychild]

He SEEMED because he was old and weary, relatively to Kenobi and Maul (let's just not factor in Yoda) and his focus was not combat but the spiritual study of the Force.

[@korvus1393]

and I am always game for a sword fighting contest. oh yeah!

[@AkosKovacs.Author.Musician]

So this is technically the Power metal of LS combat.

[@TheRoboblaster]

I gotta be honest, I HATE this lightsaber form. Takes too much energy, can't be used in tight spaces, (so useless in most circumstances) NO DEFENCE, and even then both prominent users of form IV Sateel Shan and Zhallow got their ashes kicked in a lightsaber fight, Shan won cause of the Force, not blade work. I agree with Count Dooku, all those ridiculous acrobatics are cool and flashy, but hardly practical in a fight. It needs to be paired with a defensive style or it's borderline useless.

[@channingdeadnight]

Why would you ever start a sword fight with the palm of your hand on the floor?

[@rpd3327]

If you were paying closer attention you would know that combat stance is a pre jump stance. meaning if you're about to jump up in the air to do an aerial attack

[@rayden120]

I assuming that the form can only be good in large groups if their opponents are non lightsaber users.

[@cameronmiller6514]

Not necessarily Satele Shan was shown using it against both blaster wielding druids as well as lightsaber users

[@rayden120]

So was what's his name in the jedi temple. He was talking out Sith left and right. But why did he say it's weak in group situation? I guess part of the success must it being them using shi cho that drive alittle bit from it.

[@Alexzander1989]

I still agree with Antoine and Reti4, Jinn does seem better suited to Form 5 in his later years than he does Form 4. Any idea what they're gonna do for Rey and Kylo as far as lightsaber forms in the upcoming Star Wars fan films? AKA, Episodes 8 and 9

[@alonelychild]

Kylo Ren seems to have a proclivity towards Shi-Cho (or he's just rustic) and Djem-So. As he is Vader's fan boy number 1 and would want to make grandpa proud, he will most likely emulate Vader in lightsaber dueling too. Rey is fencer, she will be no doubt a Makashi-st. Just watch her natural foot work, her axis of balance, she moves and bends, but doesn't loose equilibrium, and she tends to parry and tries to pierce thru the guard as economically and efficiently and as quickly as possible - thus her preference for stabbing thrusts - besides, just look the she cross cut Kylo's saber, armpit and face. Reminded me very much Dooku

[@cebenify]

Kylo is definitely a djem so practitioner due to his many overhead cleaves but he lacks proper mastery and control due to his lackluster defense.Rey's defensive role in her fight with kylo and light physique works well with soresu with makashi being suggested by her many stabs but djem so is still possible thanks to her many cleaves. However, this is probably future development due to the fact that she has no confirmed jedi training. This would make a Force awakens Rey a Shii-cho practitioner or user of the three rings of defense. The best skil set for her full strength would probably be a combo of all the styles with Niman as the base due to the versatility that she has displayed throughout her duel.

[@Alexzander1989]

alonelychild Kylo's blade work is youngling level at best, in fact I'd argue that padawan that we saw in Revenge of the Sith who cut down those Clone Troopers in front of Bail Organa is a better swordsman than Kylo. However, I can see him going Djem-So. I just hope they don't give him another crossguard saber As for Rey.... well aside from the fact that Djem-So pretty much directly counters Makashi, where is Rey supposed to even learn Makashi from? Since they scrapped the Grandmaster Luke Storyline, Luke wouldn't know Makashi. Luke's style was a direct mirror of Vader's, well mirrored his Form V, and then Luke backed it up with Ataru and Soresu. And they've been so incredibly vague about Luke's new Jedi Order both before and after it got destroyed Also I don't know if I'd pin Rey for Makashi, if she does, she'll likely have to ditch the two handed grip in favor of a more one handed fencing style like Dooku

[@cebenify]

As I have said already, Rey in force awakens is really using the three rings of defense in her fight. The versatility of this style shows in how rey attacks and defends. I am not saying that Rey learned any of the forms I described, I am saying that she is using attacks like djem so and makashi. There is no ataru in her swordsmanship. She uses good tight defense(inner ring) combined with her initial stab(middle ring) and many cleaves(outer ring).I believe you are low-balling Kylo. Keep in mind that he was wounded severely on both the physical and spiritual planes. The fact that he could still hold down a lightsaber duel is still astounding. The fact that he is a Skywalker cements his ability as a fighter. He was also trained by Luke and is Luke's only known surviving student. Zett Jukasa(at least in his presentation in ROS) would be thoroughly outclassed because Kylo would attack first and Zett would be completely incapable of handling his strength. The weapon that Kylo really needs is a Roblio Darte-style crossguard saber. He is no proper djem so master, but ripping from Vader's style will make his technique better. Kylo is a djem so practitioner with the mind of a juyo practitioner. He is all about attack and as I have already stated, he is no proper master since his defense is even worse than Sora Bulq.P.S. two-handed grip can work with Makashi, It's just not recommended.

[@Alexzander1989]

Janos Jalics *Rey in force awakens is really using the three rings of defense in her fight.* I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that completely =/ Rey is depicted as being on Jakku for the majority of her life up until she meets BB-8 and Finn, and she's only ever shown carrying her staff, and she thought that Luke was nothing but a myth. This tells me that she wouldn't have had any knowledge of lightsaber techniques, and at this point, they haven't established if the 3-Rings in even in their new canon. So far it has just been the 7 traditional forms. Rey's fighting style here was more of a rank amateur first year sword student. I don't quite see Makashi-like elements in her fighting style, more like her trying to use the reach of the saber to keep Kylo at a distance and keep his blade and crossguards away from her. While maintaining a consistent distance is an element of Makashi, I really don't see the influence of it here, unlike with say Ventress or Dooku *There is no ataru in her swordsmanship* I didn't say there was =/ I said it was in Luke's swordsmanship, and that since the grandmaster storyline is gone, he wouldn't know Makashi. So even if Rey did have some potential in Makashi (which I personally don't see), Luke probably wouldn't be able to help her advance down that road anyways *I believe you are low-balling Kylo.* Jensaarai1: Kylo Ren fights like fucking Savage Oppress Yeah, I'm the one low-balling this pitiful Vader wannabe :v Going off what we see of him in this movie, he's a rank amateur at best in how he applies himself. He's just mindlessly hacking and slashing like some viking berserker. He lacks any kind of technical sophistication or even knowledge of the classical forms, outside of a basic application of Shii-Cho maybe (but that's pretty much universal to all Jedi trained force users) *Keep in mind that he was wounded severely on both the physical and spiritual planes.* 1: Even at the start when he was fighting Finn, he should have been able to deal with the guy without much issue. Even if Chewie shot him in the side, we've seen force-sensitives continue fighting after taking bad hits like that or worse. Hell, Shaak Ti muscled through a blaster shot at point blank range and managed to finish off a warlord. And Jacen Solo has taken worse punishment, notably in his fight with Luke, and kept going against GRAND MASTER LUKE FUCKING SKYWALKER 2: Was he really "spiritually" injured? Cuz he didn't feel so to me in the theater. It really all felt like an act, there wasn't a sense that he meant what he was saying. Hell, he'd been planning on killing Han before all this. If it was supposed to come across as such, I never bought it, it didn't feel genuine. *The fact that he could still hold down a lightsaber duel is still astounding.* The fact that he has so much trouble dealing with a single stormtrooper (who is by no means on par with a Mandalorian, and probably could have just simply force pushed like he did to Rey into that tree not 2 minutes ago), and then gets his ass handed to him by a rank amateur force adapt who is only just now discovering the Force is even a thing, makes him all the less impressive. *The fact that he is a Skywalker cements his ability as a fighter.* Ben Skywalker can do better than this guy and he's a 14 year old boy *He was also trained by Luke and is Luke's only known surviving student.* Which we know absolutely zero details about. For all we know Luke's new jedi academy here could have been solely focused on Force abilities and far less on saber combat We don't know =/ *Zett Jukasa(at least in his presentation in ROS) would be thoroughly outclassed because Kylo would attack first and Zett would be completely incapable of handling his strength.* Considering how well he did against the clone troopers (and the 501st no less) for a kid his age, and how piss poorly Kylo handled himself against Finn, who clearly isn't trained with weapons like these, I'm more inclined to bet on Zett.

[@RES61527]

Are these forms Canon or legends?

[@phoenix21studios]

that's a good question, I dont know what George has approved or what authority writer have.

[@yrooxrksvi7142]

Both

[@baki484]

Both but Disney starwars barely cares to mention the forms or a character's combat abilities, skill configuration or weaknesses. You should see the crap they write Kanan's weakness as "never fought sith"

[@korvus1393]

Ok , #1. the stance reflects the user not the style.

[@jelanitate20]

Well the new star wars canon says that Ataru has a good defense and is good against multiple opponent's on star wars wiki.

[@lapplandkun9273]

Disney Canon is dogshit. It retcons and waters down everything good about Legends

[@jelanitate20]

@@lapplandkun9273 i agree wholeheartedly