Form V: Shien - Description & Analysis

The fifth form of lightsaber combat, referred to as Shien, along with its variant form Djem So, also known as the Perseverance Form, and the Way of the Krayt Dragon.
All footage from Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace (1999) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones (2002) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (2005) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (1977) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back (1980) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi (1983) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from the Star Wars: Clone Wars animated microseries (2003-2005) is property of Lucasfilm.
All footage from the Star Wars: The Clone Wars animated series (2008-2014) is property of Lucasfilm.

[@ariesstorm9577]

Jedi Form V maxim: “Peace through superior firepower.” Sith Form V maxim: “Victory through superior firepower.”

[@callmev3531]

An often delicate tightrope. Even if a Jedi doesn’t give into the negative and aggressive feelings, they may end up desensitized to violence and develop a preference to using it to end a conflict, like Anakin or Mace. Furthermore, desensitization and suppression of emotion could lead to a Jedi losing their capacity for compassion or empathy.

[@memine8795]

@@callmev3531 I believe Luke's view on how compassion is a requirement for Djem so is meant to be an answer to this

[@Spartan3D213]

@@memine8795 essentially kill them with kindness?

[@memine8795]

@@Spartan3D213 more like knowing when to stop the assult

[@shalomcollege6482]

Whats the song do you use for this video, reminds me of Halo.

[@Arthion]

I can see why Form V is so popular, it performs well both in duels and on the battlefield and it's only weaknesses are hard to exploit effectively.

[@dangerouslydubiousdoubleda9821]

I mean it had a lack of mobility

[@Nelcomarproductions]

Caeric it's my favorite form, then soresu is my second favorite

[@orbis7466]

@Jeeses99 Anakin definitely mixed it with Ataru

[@geocross237]

@@dangerouslydubiousdoubleda9821 Only Djem So lacks mobility.

[@geocross237]

@Jeeses99 I think this is a misconception of "lack of mobility"; practitioners of Djem So are not _stationary_ by any means, but like Makashi, Djem So basically follows a very linear combat zone compared to say Ataru where the combatant can be all over the place. If you recall the duel on Mustafar, Anakin was indeed very fast and mobile but he was still adhering to his form's style of "push them back" with unrelenting power; constantly trying to steamroll him from the front and never really tries to go for Obi-wan's flanks or try to flip over him to try to get him from behind (at least until Obiwan had the "high ground").

[@b16gav75]

Talk about Djem So's lack of mobility all you want, but Anakin showed us in ROTS that that's not true.

[@295Phoenix]

Anakin would've been invincible if he didn't go and get his body burnt.

[@ryguy1483]

B16 GAV Anakin used ataru as well....

[@fly672]

B16 GAV anakin uses ataru and shien as Vader he uses Djem So, Makashi footwork from ataru and somtimes quick strikes from form 7

[@geocross237]

i think by "lack of mobility" means more about how, like Makashi, the movement of Djem So is mostly linear. Unlike say Ataru where practitioners will circle around and jump about in all directions to catch an opponent off guard, Djem So is more about _pushing_ back and how they need more grounded footwork in order to generate the necessary strength and momentum to hit hard enough to do that.

[@mikhailvasiliev6275]

Anakin incorporated Ataru footwork into his Djem So bladework to fix the mobility issue. Had he been purely form V, he likely would have been much more sluggish.

[@clownplayer7265]

Form V is to me one of the most respectable fightstyles. His philosophy as described is prectical and based around the idea one must be able to be strong when the situation calls for it.

[@arhambliss8606]

There is a reason for being so common it has quite a lot of uses and few weaknesses.

[@kevinnorwood8782]

I could not agree more. Of the few weaknesses that it does have, the biggest is that when you use it, you're a little bit slower (you're sacrificing speed and mobility for strength and power).

[@ryguy1483]

Weaknesses: Speed, Multiple Opponents (Unless its the Shien form and not the Djem So Form. One is geared toward saber to saber and the other to multiple blaster wielding foes). There is hardly a form that has no weaknesses. Which is why Star Wars is awesome and balanced.

[@ryguy1483]

Though any weaknesses can be compensated with if a Jedi focuses soley on that form. Like Qui-Gon, Doku and Draay

[@sergeantassassin3425]

I would argue that too much focus on any one form leads to over-specialization, and that opens you up to even more weaknesses. I'd rather utilize multiple forms/styles in order to take advantage of their strengths while subsequently doing what I can to have those forms cover each others' weaknesses.

[@ryguy1483]

sergeantassassin3 Lol funny that you mentioned that because I 100% thought the other way around and still hold strongly to that. Look at Doku, Draay and Obiwan. All specialize in practically one area and they removed all the flaws within the form to a great extent. Draay compensated form 1's poor aptitude towards single opponents and Doku compensated for the blast deflection aspect of form 2. That, and he was able to fight two Grade A lightsaber duelists on multiple times. Which compensated form 2's weaknesses in multiple foes. If you take on multiple forms you'll only be able to master the basics and become an obvious duelists In the eyes of a battlemaster. Though you would have an unpredictability aspect if you switch forms constantly, but you wouldn't fully get the advantages of those forms since your only somewhat adept at them and not a master level form user.

[@cocoapuff_x]

Form V: Shien is more based on reflecting blaster bolts. On the other hand, Form V: Djem So is more based on lightsaber dueling.

[@doimanator9999]

Thank you, it was really hard to keep em straight during the whole vid

[@TinyTorah]

I'm just nitpicking here, but why not title the video, "Form V: Djem So/Shien"?... since you clearly covered BOTH variants of the style fairly evenly.

[@raybees4707]

Form 5 is definitely my favorite form. Always a pleasure Jensaarai.

[@heyimjoshnicetomeetya]

You will never walk alone, dude. I prefer using this form, but sometimes mixing this with Soresu, Makashi, and Juyo

[@shaqualletamale7291]

Holy shit

[@shaqualletamale7291]

Thanks for this video man

[@shaqualletamale7291]

Just won my fencing tournament by mixing the first form and this form together

[@shaqualletamale7291]

Kinda like how Kylo Ren fought

[@ariesostia126]

As another Star Wars Channel calls us, "Form 5 fanatics." People don't just simply practice form five, we outright love it.

[@zackthezabarak739]

Shein is my personal favorite, with Djem So as a close second. Both variations require more physical strength than the other styles, but shien relies on more technical sword play and more agile footwork, but doesn’t rely on the acrobatics of Ataru.

[@Spiralpaladin]

Not necessarily. After all, Ayla Secura was a practitioner of Djem So, and she wasn't exactly bulky in terms of muscle. So it seems there is at least some way of overcoming the typical physical requirements to utilize it effectively. But yeah, typically masters of Djem So are typically in peak physical condition.

[@Blazeyblazeyblaze]

​@@SpiralpaladinI think she was more of a shien user than a djem so user

[@gabrielbondyb8646]

I had to go against two friends in a lightsaber duel I ended up using a mixture of Ataru and Djem So it was very tiring but I quickly won since I had been able to hit powerful strikes with my right hand(dominate) and quick parries with my left as I am a pseudo-ambidexterity. My friends which one was using a mixture of Shii-Cho and Makashi while the other was using Juyu.

[@Jensaarai1]

Anakin Skywalker would be proud.

[@Caxkj0]

Oof. Your friend was using a mix of Shii-Cho and Makashi? That's like water and oil, that would've put him at a severe disadvantage.

[@memine8795]

Juyo isn't a good idea to use against Djem so either, it's focus on attack just plays into Djem so's favor, and with no defense, a Djem so practitioner would find their counters easy to use against Juyo

[@noahweathers4408]

My apologies, I agree Vader is THE premier master of Form V, but he seems to focus much more on Djem So. Do you know of any characters in particular with greater focus on Shien? I believe Ahsoka is a skilled adept.

[@marcialhd]

Well Galen Marek/Starkiller seemed to focus on a variant called "Sith Shien", though what differences exist between that and normal Shien is unknown, he also used the reverse grip commonly associated with Shien and it was his preferred style in combat.

[@chrisevans6548]

I think I've heard Plo Koon is considered a Shien master in the same way Anakin is a Djem So master, despite the fact that we don't see him employ a reverse grip. That being said, it's possible that this is where Ahsoka first learned the basics of Shien before becoming Anakin's apprentice. The two were close and it wouldn't surprise me if Plo Koon mentored her in this style.

[@lachlanparker570]

Plo Koon is the obvious stand-out for me. He refined it to utilise the same tight and minimalist movements as Soresu, and is also the only known Jedi to have defeated Yoda himself in a 1-on-1 fight. It is entirely possible that no practitioner of forms 4 or 7 could beat him. And my hope is that even Dooku could not beat him. Master Plo deserves it, and so does the Count.

[@Blazeyblazeyblaze]

​​@lachlanparker570 he didn't defeat yoda, also dooku would defeat plo with some difficulty.

[@seanrea550]

form 5 is likely one of the closest forms to practical blade work in starwars.

[@lord_terrorbeast2625]

Form II as well

[@gundamfan7541]

Form 5 taking inspiration from European longsword fighting kendo fighting in Japan, with form 2 being the equivalent of European fencing with foils epees and sabers. The other forms taking elements of different martial arts outside of using the sword, the only exceptions in my opinion being form 3 soresu and form 6 niman.

[@MoldyOog]

Which is ironic, because you don't need a lot of strength to be a great swordsman. It's when the fight transfers into things like grappling that physical strength becomes a factor.

[@peterstamerra445]

Not to mention Jedi are literally super-humans, so they can use whatever fighting style they want 😂

[@bakionigeri6414]

I come back to this video whenever I need COURAGE

[@KaiserAfini]

Even though the old lightsaber analysis series was excellent, these new videos are just such a superb increase in quality. Nicely done, can't wait for the next one.

[@bobclift444]

I can't wait for you to do the one for Niman, which is my personal favorite lightsaber form. Your analyses of the previous five forms were awesome, so I'm really excited!

[@zackthezabarak739]

Something i find interesting is that both variations relies more on physical strength than the other seven styles. But a notable deference is that djem so relied more on muscular, straight forward brute force were shien relied more on athletic full body strength. It’s noted that Anakin agility comes from ataru acrobatics , but I personally believe that he only used ataru for forced based jumps and unarmed combat, while his general speed and dexterity came from his secondary mastery of shein in addition to djem so’s power blows. ( I personally believe that in the film version of ROTS Anakin’s style is more in line with Shien than Djem So, I feel that’s more because I believe he combined shien footwork and circular blade work so completely with Djem so’s linear power attacks perfectly. Obviously ataru was a major part of his style ( he’s noted as a master of it and has even tried to improve it in both legends and canon) I just view it as less important than is typically discussed. His advanced acrobatics, jumps and unarmed strikes were definitely from ataru, but his footwork seems more in line with your description of shien in this video. Part of my reasoning is that Luke Skywalker has a similar training background, but because he trained in ataru and soresu as a supplement instead of shien form he has a much more grounded technique unless employing flanking acrobatics. ( granted he was copying these techniques from watching Vader, but I think it’s worth mentioning) A similar situation occurs with Ulic Qel Droma ( very grounded, with the occasional advanced acrobatics but otherwise relied much less on speed than his strength and technique) Whereas Plo Koon has a similar training background to Anakin with a secondary mastery of shien and tertiary in ataru and he moves much more closely to anakin speed and athleticism than Luke . ( not saying luke and ulic were not athletic, they just relied more on basic strength with a secondary implementation of acrobatics to flank opponents.) Still this is only my opinion and freely admit I might be wrong.

[@ryguy1483]

Can't wait for the analysis of my favorite form (6)! Definitely one of the most underestimated forms out there alongside Shien. Which, by the way, thank you Jensaarai for showcasing Shiens use and effectiveness. People often forget that it was Anakins original favorite form other than probably ataru (before episode 3 I mean).

[@danmarusan2878]

My favourite lightsaber form. If you're mastering both variants then you're able to manage almost every combat situation.

[@andrewperkin7192]

jensaarai loving the use of impend/impact from halo 2 at the intro really sets a build up , loving your use of music

[@Mote141]

I really enjoy your lightsaber form videos, great content! Looking forward to the vapaad video!

[@xBiggs]

Good luck on doing the video for Niman, litterally everyone has been waiting for it. Niman has been getting hyped up over the last couple years

[@JoelCelaya]

This series of videos are so good because of the level of detail you put on them! Please, don't forget making a video of Jar Kai!

[@simplyepic1732]

You're videos get bette and better as they continue. This was definitively the best and most entertaining upload in the series yet. Keep up the good work. And also, if you had to choice two lightsaber forms what would they be and why.

[@IonakiOnykKnight]

Amazing work. These videos aid me greatly in my saber knowledge

[@HarbingerOfBattle]

Can't wait to see your Niman video!

[@AlexanderDiviFilius]

Great work, really enjoyed this video.

[@ariesstorm9577]

I've just re-read the novelisation for Revenge of the Sith and in chapter 20 Vader executes a "Shien whip crack" move against Obi-Wan, never noticed that before

[@jasonmcphee4627]

good to see new videos I subscribe to you and Evan Nova haven't seen any new stuff glad to see this

[@B-SybrZaku-ThendHaloAirsofting]

Anakin used both forms of Form V together which is one of the reasons he was so capable in duels and in groups

[@matthewmann8969]

I like this form for dealing with countering and bringing the competition back towards your opponent. A solid defense and hard offense.

[@FinnyT711]

3:43 Was that intentional

[@sahlohken2013]

Jensaarai1 I think it would be cool to do a vs video that pits Vader, Malgus, and Bane against each other. Take 3 tanks with the same philosophy and see who is left standing after the carnage.

[@dazdavis7896]

That’s why Skywalker was so dominant by ROTS and the end of the war. He kept up the footwork of his Shien variant, but mainly used the sheer power and perfect bladework of his Djem So onslaught. Dooku said in that same ROTS novelization that he was the most dominant saber duelist he’d ever seen by that point, not very long after that passage you read from him. He said he could feel him just growin stronger and stronger as the battle raged on and it scared him, he’d never felt anything like it. And that’s coming from the man who was apprenticed to both Yoda and Sidous...... Nobody could withstand Anakin Skywalker’s darkside fueled Djem So onslaught, Not even Kenobi who was known by all as the greatest defense saber duelist ever known, could withstand Skywalker’s onslaught head on.

[@c.i.a8359]

Did he changed his form as vader? Beacause as vader he still uses power blows but is not a fast. If so then what form does prime vader use?

[@dazdavis7896]

MC FROG still uses the same offensive powerhouse Djem So yea, Anakin/Vader also knew all 7 forms as well. Just chose to specialize in the best offensive one that suited his dominant onslaught. Anyways, my point is, as Vader he incorporates all 7 forms into a hybrid Form 5 style to make up for his huge loss of speed & maneuverability. Plus to guard his chest plate and keep his defense tight. Which is the soresu he learned from his old master. Kenobi. helped him a lot in the long run, and even after his injuries he was still the most dominant offensive saber duelist ever.

[@starwarsbros1893]

I love these lightsaber form videos although they seem to be getting better as he progresses to the forms

[@jaridb86]

Your videos are great! Do you believe that Forms II, III, and V could blend well together?

[@brianschwarm8267]

Very good video, this is the form I’ve chosen after reading up on their philosophies so I figured I’d do some KZbin research.

[@HiddenPalm]

This would be so much better is Sean Connery was reading the script. I'm joking. Awesome video.

[@TheBaconWizard]

Jensaarai1 exshellent ;)

[@DJTRANCENDENCE]

Jensaarai1 NEVER YOUR VOICE IS LIKE THE FINEST SILK!!!!! Besides which you really always sound like you actually know EXACTLY what you're talking about.......

[@jasonblack4208]

I always thought Qui-Gon fought more like a Djem So specialist than an Ataru one. Where fighters like Ahsoka and Yoda are somewhat flittery and move with loopy, unpredictable cadences, Qui-Gon's style was much more grounded. He pressed forward like a steamroller, dominating even the vicious onslaught of Darth Maul for most of the fight. This even carries over to some of his philosophical differences with the council. Where the council was focused on protocol and fell victim to timid policy, Qui-Gon favored bold, decisive action, and clearly saw the need to break rules and implement tactical aggression for the sake of longer term peace (though again, aggression in a more grounded sense like Djem So, not in the more high-energy manner of Ataru aggression).

[@iceomistar4302]

His defemse was lacking though, he still performed a ton of fullbody twirls and spins akin to Ataru which basically stagefencing taken to the nth degree, basically Qui gon practiced Ataru.with a Djem So mentality leveraging his strength, whilst Anakin practiced Djem.so with an Ataru mentality leveraging speed and finesse as much as his strength. That's why Dooku wasnt able to beat ROTS era Analin but could take on Qui gon no problem.

[@gameovervirus2384]

Icbeoaneistari of Chu personally I always thought that his style was a combination of Shien and Ataru, rather than Djem-So. I believe that in his early life Qui-Gon was a pure practitioner of form 4, utilizing his youthful speed and aggression and then funneling into Ataru. But as he grew older and blaster wielding foes became ever more common, he switched over to Shien. Effectively combining the two into a form that he could use in any situation. He applied Shien’s grounded footwork and strength oriented blade work, and blended it with Ataru’s flourishes and physical integration, developing a very technical and conservative style that he could use in any situation. During his duel with Darth Maul he began the fight with his lightsaber’s hilt close to his waist in a traditional Shien ready stance. He used strength based slashes and cleaves to push Maul back while using Ataru almost as a backup plan. He would only use its acrobatics to catch up with Maul, use its flourishes to help absorb the momentum of Maul’s Juyo frenzy and recover his stance, and only used its physical integration *after* Maul provoked him by kicking his apprentice off the platform. All in all it was a very reserved style built to outlast his opponent, using the techniques as defensively as possible rarely leaving his guard open to a counter offensive. He applied forms 4/5 with a Soresu philosophy, only attacking or defending enough to extend the engagement until his opponent made a deadly error, allowing Qui-Gon to finish it with a Shien counter, or an Ataru slash.

[@digitaladventurer2142]

Yeah people make that mistake but there are a couple reasons. 1. He was getting old and thus his physical and force reserves weren't as high as when he was younger so he couldn't use it as effectively anymore 2. In real life getting a living actor like Liam or even a stunt double to pull off all the actual acrobatics even with green screens and wires would be very difficult. A CGI character like Yoda would be no problem though. This reason is why a lot of the lightsaber duels were kind of lackluster compared to what you see in animation or described in books

[@sirjedisentinel]

Thank you for this video. I’m doing a versus profile on Adi Gallia (I’m just writing a breakdown of her abilities right now), and I’ve found she was a Shien practitioner, and I didn’t know about the dueling applications

[@Kishimyu]

Alight! Niman is next. My favorite form. I am excited to see the next video. And as always, excellent video sir!

[@Jackaal77]

Can't wait to hear your video of form vi. I wonder why more form v specialist didn't combine the two substyles together.

[@JediGangsterFlash]

I feel like this is really my lightsaber form right here. A great set of attack and defending from both blasters and other lightsaber foes as well. Form 5 as well with a mix of Ataru would be powerful since it a mix of the power of Form 5 with the flying speed of Form 4.

[@AKlover]

Great work!

[@nikolaalavanja7337]

Can you do a versus video with Kyp Durron? He's a fantastic Jedi that I feel is underrated. Maybe you and Evannova can collaborate since he has done the only versus video with him that I've seen. Thank you, keep up the fantastic work with these videos! Thank you for completing my favorite form of lightsaber combat! May the force be with you!

[@robgeorge4581]

I really look forward to your videos Jensarrai1 and this was once again fantastic. Though I still think Luke is the greatest Djem So master of all time. But, its worth noting that Luke learned form 5 by copying Vader's own technique (though sadly I forget which source this was in) but I noticed it in the ROTJ movie. Darth Vader is number 2 to me. Overall, great job and I look forward to your analysis of the 3 rings and niman. Also, while I should save these ideas for the niman video, I cant help but post it. Darth Krayt vs Exar Kun or Darth Plagueis vs Darth Caedus. As for Exar Kun vs Krayt, I think its Krayt's game off force abilities, superior power, greater application of tk, can deal with basically all of Kun's skills, and of course dark transfer+shatterpoint. But I always go back and forth with lighsaber dueling due to the logistics of Kun's saberstaff vs dual blades. Wouldn't the need to constant spin the blade like a quarterstaff be bad against a dual blade user because they can use that time to cut you down? Idk, would love to hear your thoughts about it.

[@ariesstorm9577]

Well done Jensaarai on another great lightsaber video :-) I know that it is not confirmed (at least not to my knowledge) but I always thought the Jedi Knight Sarro Xaj was a good example of a Djem So specialist using a double-bladed lightsaber. I don't have the book on hand but I think Zannah compares him to Bane, noting his strikes are as powerful but without leaving himself open to any counters. It's been a long time since I've read Rule of Two. With its focus on countering after defending, would you say that Form V shares similarities to real world martial arts like boxing or karate? In basic karate drills, we were taught to block and immediately follow up with a counter attack (most often a lunge punch with the back hand)

[@Storyman09]

Well, Xaj definitely had the physique and the personality to be a Djem So stylist, and a damn good one given that Zannah, Bane's own apprentice, noted him as more refined than Bane. Even if hasn't been confirmed, I'd say Xaj is probably a pretty good example. Hmm. As for your comparison of Djem So to Karate or Boxing, from my own experience in martial arts I'd say that's a pretty apt comparison actually. Wish I'd thought of it. :P

[@ariesstorm9577]

+Storyman09 it's been a few years since I last went to a karate lesson, but the emphasis on blocking followed up by immediate counter attacks is what reminded me of Form V, in my mind Shien fits well with sparring while Djem So reminds me of the linear footwork of the first few katas I learned as a beginner. My comparison to boxing comes from a recent interest in pugilism (I have experience in neither) of which there are various videos online about the art. Perhaps karate is more akin to Shien while boxing/pugilism is an aggressive Djem So?

[@Storyman09]

Well the biggest difference between the Shien and Djem So variants is the differing focuses on blast deflection and lightsaber dueling respectively, something that can't really be replicated in the martial arts we have. That being said I would say that the aggressive nature and focus of boxing, and the competitive aspects do correspond well to Djem So's dueling centric focus. At the same time, Djem So is said to have a problem with maneuverability and dexterity, at least in the hands of lower level practitioners. Boxing strikes me as far more maneuverable and fluid, at least for skilled practitioners. The block, counterattack method of karate and linear footwork overall matchup well for both Shien and Djem So on AT LEAST a technical level. Overall I think that you could make a case for either or both Boxing and Karate being more similar to either variant of Form V. The comparisons hold up.

[@Destroyer83]

Jensaarai, why do you think the form is popular specifically among the protagonists?

[@mc_rysiek5277]

i'm not Jensaarai (obviously) but I imagine that Djem So is just more intuitive and easier to learn than, for example, Ataru or Makashi. That's why I think Luke Skywalker and Kyle Katarn, given that circumstances forced them to become competent fighters in relatively short time, choose relatively simple and balanced style.

[@ctv186]

Form V also seems like one of those fighting styles which are very well rounded and have all the bases covered to some extent.

[@mc_rysiek5277]

+ctv186 Yeah, pretty much. Under circumstances similar to those faced by Luke or Kyle, styles like Shi-Cho, Soresu and Shien/Djem So are good options to start lightsaber training, thanks to relatively simplistic technique. Form V especially beceuse of it's adaptability. Forms II, IV, VI and VII, due to more demanding technical aspect, are not so atractive options to start with (under mentioned circumstances).

[@ctv186]

Maciek Ciepły All the other forms also have some major deficiency which don't seem to be addressed by most instructors save for compensate with another style. I even argue Form V is actually a combo of Forms I- IV.

[@mc_rysiek5277]

+ctv186 well, Form V clearly borrows elements from Makashi and Soresu, but what similarities to Ataru you noticed? I'm genuinely curious.

[@keithasaur0]

great video as always:-) 3rd person here! !

[@akeiltheseal]

"It was very togrutan." thats very interesting.

[@AirbenderHawk]

Hell yeah, my favorite form is finally here for analysis. :-) tbh, I used this for my lightsaber workouts to increase my strength intensity. FYI: I use my martial arts experience in my saber workouts to make it more fun.

[@romancapulus5577]

yooooo, I thought I was the only one :D

[@AirbenderHawk]

+Kristopher Creecy you are not alone, my fellow Jedi. :-)

[@tpeden7259]

Me Too bro

[@AirbenderHawk]

+reaper of death bring it on, Sith spit. *ignites blue saber*

[@edwuncleriii3798]

Ignites red saber, you shall feel the power of the darkside

[@ariesstorm9577]

Would Form V (in particular Djem So) be a viable style to use with blunt weapons like the European mace or Japanese kanabo? Or a mace and shield combination?

[@nerfultimatehackhd9737]

Great vid

[@spaceonisorceress4406]

I find it rather interesting that Luke derived much of his combat style from essentially reverse-engineering Vader's on the spot. The old EU stuff makes it pretty clear that he's literally learning Form V on the spot in his final duel with Vader on the Death Star II, and how Sidious was rather astonished by it. Since this is pretty clearly seen and not very hard to infer within the film itself, I'm hoping they retain Luke's EU style for Episode VIII (it's basically inevitable that he's gonna finally kick some ass in it). It should be quite a sight to see.

[@getgoing581]

Zachary Damascus great assessment what form do you think luke was using in his first duel with vader?

[@spaceonisorceress4406]

Personally, I think Luke was using form "I Have Almost No Idea What I'm Doing", combined with some basic elements of Ataru, as instructed to him by Yoda (note the occasional acrobatics), and a bit of Shii-Cho, since I like to think Yoda was like "ok this is how you actually swing a lightsaber properly and these are the areas of the body you target", and Shii-Cho was traditionally the first form a student learned. I note that if nothing else, Luke actually knows how to hold and swing his blade properly in that duel. But mostly? Form "I Have Almost No Idea What I'm Doing".

[@getgoing581]

I agree. Yoda had him running and jumping all over the place on dagobah but never with a lightsaber in hand which is I guess why he never tried the falling leaf related techniques. It was like he was using FIV for defensive purposes only. His offense was basically what you describe but I wouldn't even call it shii cho. It looked like a copy of obi wan's style in his last fight without all of the little details and factors that made vader think twice about applying pressure or getting too close. Instead luke used his saber like a regular sword which is just about the worst mistake you can make while handling a lightsaber. Vader saw this, lured luke into a narrow hallway, cut off his ataru defense and went ape shit on the poor kid with the djem so falling avalanche then by the grace of the lord realized "hey wait im not supposed to kill him!" tried to switch to makashi and got caught for showing mercy, was like👿 and luke lost a hand lol.

[@spaceonisorceress4406]

Ah, good point - his style does indeed resemble what he saw Obi-Wan applying against Vader, which makes perfect sense, really. Also yes, Vader went from "switch to Makashi to play nice" to "fuck it I'm cutting his hand off" in the space of, literally, four seconds. I checked, lol.

[@getgoing581]

Zachary Damascus lol the stance vader took after the kid caught him had me on the floor. XD vader's like "aaaahrgh! Motherf%*/&#"

[@b16gav75]

I agree that Vader was a GREAT lightsaber duellist, his main flaw was his lack of mobility. He stood still and swung; it worked but wouldn't have been effective against some, like Luke Skywalker.

[@ariesstorm9577]

@Jensaarai One, I apologise if I’ve already asked this question in the past, but would you be willing to make videos about the Sith Fast and Strong styles, as described in the Book of Sith and give examples of who you think used them? For example, while he mastered both I believe that Darth Sidious had a strong preference for Fast style during the prequel era, but in his cloned body on Byss he opts for the Strong style to match Luke Skywalker’s use of Form V.

[@thanecreos9670]

I like Vaders view on the style. Few sith would have such a view.

[@thefilmwhisperer1105]

Hey where is that awesome-looking footage footage from? The one with the master who LOOKS like Kylo Ren and the the lady who wields the blue saber staff?!

[@AkkiLad]

could shien be used with saberstaffs specifically those spinning saberstaffs used by inquisitors? wondering how reverse grip would work with the spinning saber cuz of the circular guard, makes switching to normal grip hard. unless have circular grip out and have one blade activated held in a reverse grip and then when striking activate the spinning mechanism to have the blade come to the front thus changing the grip from reverse to normal, if that makes sense? opinions please.

[@romancapulus5577]

I used to have a saberstaff, and I will say this: Shien could be used for saberstaff users, though I don’t see it being used effectively for the inquisitor’s disc sabers. Even if you don’t lock the ringed emitter, I don’t see the disc saber being used effectively with Shien unless you plan on using just a single blade.

[@robsonfmbelloli]

Hi, Jensaarai. Your videos are amazing. Thank you for them. So, I have a question. In the Book of Sith, Darth Bane says that the Sith should use two forms. The Strenght Style, that is the Djem So, and the Fast Style... So... What would be the fast style? Would it be the Shien, cause it is more... mobile rather than Djem So, or would it be another thing? Thank you. Cheers from Brazil.

[@ctgslayer]

I’m late, and not Jensaarai, but I think that the fast form is Form IV Ataru. It’s a form about using your whole body as a weapon, and also focused on quickly dispatching threats with extensive acrobatics.

[@Restitutor-Orbis]

Could you do a series about why certain battles were won? Like Anakin Vs Obi Wan in ep. 3. I love your analysis on the forms and making hypothetical battles, but I'd love to hear why you think Obi Won (see what I did there). While explaining the moves such as the awesome double force push move where they focused much force in one area. Only to find that they both couldn't control it any longer. Also, other than the cop out "I have the higher ground" bullshit. We have all seen higher force jumps than that. I know it was wisdom Vs strength, but it was more than that. Fatigue and other aspects had to take a role as well. Anyway love to hear from you.

[@sahipkran9447]

One of the best lightsaber forms.

[@Yasha-mx7te]

can you make an edit to these videos to include the titles of the books you mention?

[@DarthWill3]

"The list goes on." That's one way of putting it.

[@MajinMadness]

Could you do an description and analysis of "telekinetic lightsaber combat" ? Darth Traya once used it and I think it would be very interesting.

[@leonlacroix2638]

Telekinetic lightsaber combat has been seen as far back as 3951 BBY in the case of Darth Traya, the Sith Lord of Betrayal. While still undercover in the guise of her former Jedi name, Kreia, she lost her left hand to Darth Sion, Lord of Pain while in combat. When the Jedi exile Meetra Surik cut off Traya's remaining hand on their final encounter on Malachor V, the Sith would not relent. Using her incredible gifts of telekinesis, she animated three lightsabers to fight Surik. While still ultimately falling at Surik's blade, she did previously archive knowledge of this skill in a holocron which fell into the hands of Atris some time before 3951 BBY. When Atris, a former council member of the Jedi Order, began to rebuild the order on Telos IV, she also collected Sith holocrons. One of them was the Trayus holocron which belonged to Darth Traya. Several millennia later, the holocron fell into the hands of an Echani girl named Alina Porana whose mother was a Jedi and her father an archaeologist. When the aspiring Jedi became trapped in the holocron room of Atris on Telos IV, she studied the Trayus holcron and it corrupted her. Over time, Alina, now known by her Sith name Lady Vesper, began to develop her skill at telekinesis as well as telekinetic lightsaber combat. Eventually, she created an entire form dedicated to telekinetic saber combat affectionately named Trayus. While Traya had only been able to wield 3 lightsaber with the skill, Vesper became capable of using up to 10. However, she found that 3-5 was the easiest to utilize. She also taught this skill to her former apprentice, Kandros Tanner.

[@MrBadCrack]

Hey Jensaarai, I found myself wondering what would have happened if Anakin was allowed to learn Vaapad and what the consequences would have resulted in. Could Anakin have become more powerful and defeated Obi-Wan? Or maybe the darkness in him would have been recognised sooner and caused an early expulsion from the jedi order? I would love to hear your (or anyone's) thoughts on this.

[@Ppichas]

Dude. You could easily make a series of Canon vs Legends... just saying it would be awesome for you to do it!

[@ElricWilliam]

Djem so is propably one of the closest forms to svabian langschwert (hans talhoffer longsword) that ive studied. I actually really like using form 5 when fighting against another swordsman, it teaches you to strile first and strile true but thats the best thing djem so teaches, is how to "strike true"

[@ElricWilliam]

(Most of my friends are into larping. So im stuck training these things against larpers but i do my best to teach them what i know and how to commit to strikes and how best to parry them

[@dzobie]

Thanks for making these videos. I enjoy learning about the jedi's techniques. I especially like that jedi lore is divided into unique disciplines, but the physical techniques often contradict the philosophies of their respective styles. It would have been neat to see these forms discussed and executed clearly in the films. Luke's baseball bat style from the movies for instance gets explained in so many different ways it's laughable. I was happy assuming he really had no idea what he was doing since his training was so limited and nontraditional.

[@ariesstorm9577]

+Jensaarai1, I know this is merely fan theory and personal speculation, but could the Jedi Djem So style originate from the Sith Empire of Naga Sadow's era? My thoughts for this stem from the Book of Sith in which the Massassi warriors are depicted as huge hulking brutes and their weapons look like they could not only cut but break bones, effectively using heavy cleaves to break through their enemies. In my personal opinion, I find Djem So better suits a Sith than a Jedi. Also, having re-read dark lord the rise of Darth Vader recently, I noticed it mentioned Vader's style as "a more ancient style of fighting," "protecting the torso like the cyborg Grievous had been forced to do" and it compares his style to Count Dooku's more elegant Makashi. Final question: are you still intending to make videos detailing the New Jedi Order styles, if so would you consider making videos detailing the fighting styles and methods used by the Sith, comparing them against Jedi martial arts?

[@zackthezabarak739]

What martial arts do you think went into each lightsaber style? Obviously kendo is the base of all of them, but each style has a subbase as well. Ataru is wushu based with kendo thrown in, Djem So is a mix of Kendo and Broadsword fencing, Makashi is mostly European fencing with the occasional kendo slash. Niman is a mix of kendo, fencing, wushu, staff fighting, eskrima swordplay and other stuff I don’t know about . Soreseu and ship cho I have no clue about. Shien i believe is mostly kendo with the occasional mix of broadsword hack and slash and while not acrobatic, some wushu technical fitness. I really like to hear your thoughts on my theories and what you agree and disagree with.

[@blackpowderkun]

Suresu would be a combination of various defensive techniques and Shii cho is characterized by wide sweeping movements to deal with multiple opponents that does exist in some heavy cleaver like swords like Zweihanders, poleaxes, glaves, scimitar, heavy dao etc.

[@nathanmitchell5550]

My favourite form alongside Makashi because they are most similar to real sword fighting styles. If I could perfect both in a hybridised style that used Djem So to turn defence into offence and Makashi to work around my opponents guard once I'm on the offensive, that would be my preferred fighting style no questions asked. Perhaps with Soresu to fall back on if necessary.

[@LethalDragon1]

Excellent video! Where can I find the picture at 1:44?

[@charlesratcliff2016]

A lot of what you are talking about was seen in the fight between Kanan Jarrus and Darth Vader. Vader applied a lot of Makashi against Kanan

[@inspectorbutters166]

I have a question about your sources: I want to write my own star wars fan fiction, but I want it to fit into Legends canon as well as possible. So, what would you recommend to gain broad knowledge about the Exar Kun War, the Mandalorian wars and Jedi battle methods?

[@inspectorbutters166]

***** Great, thank you! I plan to write in German, but as soon as I am ready I can send you an English version, if you want.

[@kieranlock3070]

Jensaarai1 what form would you choose ? you strike me as a form 1 enthusiast

[@eclipseshade776]

As a Djem So practitioner, I approve! :3

[@kirbyspencer]

I would like to see further explanation of the philosophies and 'techniques' in these videos as opposed to, "this is good here because I say so and so does this book'". Think. Why is Shien rather suited to multiple opponents with blasters and why does it suck against single melee opponents? Might it have something to do with the wide bladework? Making it excellent for covering an area riddled with enemies? And then the flip side of that is the relative lack of precision required to hone in on one opponent? Does that sound a bit like a previous form (Shii-cho)? Do we see links here? Acrobatics (Ataru)? There is more overlap than you give credit, and I would love to see it explored, but it simply hasn't been. The only substantial difference to the previous videos you have done on these forms is that these are longer and contain more visual representation. That's it. The theoretical content is similar or the same. *Sigh* Nevermind. Just a few ideas.

[@raphaelhanna8345]

im curious to know why you've omitted the lightsaber hilt designs for form 5 as anakin skywalkers lightsaber hilt was designed to facilitate form 5 but you seemed to not bother mentioning that

[@jairuscastaneda3996]

The halo music was a nice touch.

[@darklonewolf_0311]

All Six films. Love that line… 😊

[@ariesstorm9577]

Which Avatar element is the closest to Form V? I'm thinking Earth benders would use Djem So and Water benders would use Shien. What do you think? I'm just getting into the lore of Avatar and the actual martial arts the styles are based on. Earth is based on Hung Gar and Water is based on Tai Chi.

[@PAX-East]

So can one master both Shien and Djem So? And if they could, how effective would that make them in combat against other light sabre users, blaster users, and multiple opponents?

[@PAX-East]

@@Jensaarai1 Thanks for the reply. That answer clarifies alot.

[@willlauzon3744]

What is the track in the background. I know its halo

[@jorbo4044]

Form five seems like objectively the best lightsaber technique. It was adapted from real life longsword fencing styles and doesn't rely on the force to do it's job, at least not to the extent of the other six forms. Moreover, it seems to be the most well-rounded of all the forms (except maybe niman). You a speed fencer? Use shien. You a strength duelist? Use Djem so. The other six forms just don't seem to stack up

[@Bastion83]

are you going to do form VIIJuyo/Vapaad?

[@SilverG1]

Nice music from the halo 3 campaign lol ill never forget the old days

[@danielcowles7496]

Awsome

[@SS4Xani]

You comment in your Soresu video how Obi-Wan used it against Dooku. However, if you watch Obi-Wan's fight against Dooku in Attack of the Clones, you will notice that Obi-Wan actually prefers Shii-Cho against Dooku rather than Soresu (as Obi-Wan had not - at this time - fully mastered Soresu...otherwise he would not have lost to Dooku like he did in Attack of the Clones (rather, the fight would have gone more like it had in Revenge of the Sith).

[@dragonballtalk8527]

What form was darth sion

[@fattlebieldproductions3198]

what forms did anakin use

[@rayden120]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't that article say Anakin decided to used Djem so on Dooku in they're first fight but was extremely over confident and cocky that he can use it without any training and that's why he got his arm cut off. Since then he took up a full dedication to it? Or was it cause he used shein first? It's been awhile since I read it lol.

[@hectoraliegbe9429]

Before his defeat by the blade of Count Dooku on Geonosis, Anakin's fighting style was a solid mixture of Form V: Shien and Form IV: Ataru. After his defeat, Skywalker focused on mastering Shien's modern variant, Form V: Djem So. The reason he decided to use the variant as the primary facet of his evolving combat style is not only due to it being the most physically demanding Lightsaber form (And we all know Anakin loves a good challenge.), but it also complemented his increasing physical strength (There is no doubt that his cybernetic arm aided in this development.). However, Anakin did not discard Shien and Ataru, instead he used them as supplements to cover Djem So's weaknesses of linear mobility (Ataru) and overspecialization in close-ranged combat (Shien). Thanks to Skywalker's modification of his Lightsaber technique, by the end of the Clone Wars he was recognized by the Jedi Order as one of its leading experts in Lightsaber Combat at the Jedi Academy.

[@East_Coast_Toasty_Boy]

I was told that shien was also for saber combat, being mostly defense with counters and few attacks, and d'jem so being the opposite with mostly attacks and few blocks and counters.

[@ironinquisitor3656]

Shien could be used in dueling.

[@lukegreensaber7362]

Djemso a great form of philosophy and dueling to press offensive combat off balancing a opponent great parrys, shattering defense, great counters, a master practitioner most likey wins the bout. If the form is hyberdized with another chances of beating the practitioner decreases unless of course a master practitioner of the forms are a master of their choosen style than a great fight should occur lightsaber to lightsaber combat of course.

[@OceanHedgehog]

I feel like another weakness of Form V that's never officially been stated is a weakness or vulnerability to Force based attacks. In TCW, Anakin is frequently blindsided by Ventress and Dooku's Force attacks. It's probably because Form V users channel the Force passively to enhance their physical capabilities rather than to actively engage in telekinetic or other Force attacks.

[@ariesstorm9577]

In the clone wars micro series we see Anakin stonewall a powerful Force push from Ventress before immediately countering with an even more powerful Force push back at her. Every time I see that it makes me think that this is how a Form V mindset is used in a Force duel, tanking hits before retaliating with twice the power.

[@raphaelhanna8345]

I personally don't like the idea of the reverse grip being associated with Shien specifically because of the fact that the two variants of form 5 are supposed to have similar moves to each other that are optimised for different situations with Shien being more for dealing with shooters and Djem So being for dealing with lightsaber duellists that is what makes them two variants of the same forms after all and it is a thing that when Anakin was using Shien in attack of the clones against Count Dooku you can see some similarity between his moves there and his Djem So moves in revenge of the Sith so adding reverse grip techniques to Shien kinda ruins the idea of the two variants of the forms because now Shien is essentially a completely different technique from Djem So personally I think that the reverse grip should just be considered an unorthodox technique that can be applied to any form rather than being associated with Shien

[@fly672]

Form V masters: Darth Vader, Darth Bane, Darth Malgus

[@reneeh8220]

I heard that galen merek (starkiller) Once used this form,awesome

[@ironinquisitor3656]

He uses the Shien Variant.

[@wjb-wt6sc]

+Jensaarai1 What is your assessment of my style? I'm having a hard time placing myself. Description: Tall, Burly, reasonably athletic from two years of Varsity football (American) Weapon: Not all of us have stunt sabers, so we typically use pvc pipes. Deflection: Some of my friends and I rigged up 4 softball pitching machines to converge on one point (me). The machines are able to fire at two angles in the same direction and the lowest frequency. Not having the Force as my ally means I miss most of the balls, when I do manage to deflect the balls they tend to hit my friends, does this make me a Shien user? Dueling: Though I suck at deflecting, i am by far the best (among my friends) when it comes to dueling. Typically I come on hard, charging and aiming for either the legs or fingers of their weapon hand (we fight rough). When my assault doesn't work I usually break off, when they bring the assault I usually angle my pipe so that I can catch their pipe and slide it to the ground

[@wjb-wt6sc]

Cont. After I slide their pipe away from me, I usually sweep it out of their hands with my own pvc pipe then sweep their legs from under them( we fight rough). I feel like my duelist style is Djem so but I want feedback. Thanks to anyone who leaves a reply.

[@kengox77]

Sounds like a Djem So style with elements of Makashi disarmament to me. Also it sounds like a lot of fun.

[@ctv186]

I hope for your sake you're not using actual baseballs or softballs, but sounds like at least you're at tennis balls. But from what you describe, you seem like Anakin Skywalker's version of Djem So.

[@wjb-wt6sc]

+kengox77 Thanks. Yeah it's a lot of fun, we don't get to do it often because of conflicting schedules.

[@kengox77]

+wjb61274123 I know what that's like, trust me.

[@RurouniLeonardo360]

Nice.

[@youjustsaid4863]

Was Form V used in The Phantom Menace?