Former Priest Critiques Orthodox Theology (with Joshua Schooping)

[@slim316]

The interviews with Pastor Schooping (and his channel as well) helped break a 30 year stalemate in my soul that kept me from fully believing that I am a child of God because I wasn't in the true church. I couldn't decide between Rome or Constantinople. Canterbury was as far as I could go. Both Rome and Constantinople made exclusive claims. I so needed someone to push back and peel back the veneer. I'm free of that burden! Thank God!! I am truly free of that burden. I can breath. I can rest. I can trust in God's grace. Thank you.

[@melodysledgister2468]

Thank God he set you free! I was there too at one time. I think Pastor Shooping calls it "an alternative object of faith." I just call it an idol, because that's what it is.

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

We must trust the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the church, He is the object of faith. Acts 4:12

[@TheologiaEvangelica]

The Catholic apologist Serenus de Cressy wrote that the most difficult argument he faced, is Jn 20:31, "but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." John here testifies that believing his testimony about Jesus, grants spiritual life. But ofcourse the Protestants he was engaging with, so Serenus says, affirmed the same Christ that he did. How then can one say that such people are not members of the Body of Christ, ie., his Church, when Christ has claimed them as his own and has granted them spiritual life?

[@joachim847]

When I discovered Orthodoxy, I made a 10+ year pit stop in Anglicanism. Rome was never really an option for me because (in my humble, but accurate opinion) all the most objectionable doctrines stem from St. Augustine. Neither did the appeal to Papal authority really carry weight, precisely because I already knew for sure I was a Christian in good standing, both because of and in spite of my Pentecostal upbringing. Anglicanism was the best choice for me for a long time, precisely for the reason you mentioned. Eventually though, I could no longer tolerate being in communion with Calvinists (sorry Calvinists), so I made the decision to move my Anglo-Orthodox heart on over to Orthodoxy proper. For me, it was what I needed for the salvation of my soul. That being said, there is an impenetrable fog of history. Choosing between Rome, the East, or something else is ultimately a judgment we have to make and be accountable for, because there is no choice which is clear to everyone -- if there were, the other choices would give up and join it. My advice to anyone considering a monumental change in their Church allegiance -- do it very slowly with as much information as you can, from sources just like this one (Slim's comment, and the video). On the sane Orthodox side of the debate, you might be interested in an article by Fr. John Cox entitled, "Can You Baptize Without Baptizing?" He discusses reception without re-baptism, application of the canons, and he disabused me of the common notion that strict application of canons is normal, and relaxing them by "economy" is less valid.

[@FalconOfStorms]

@@joachim847 Dr. Ortlund is a Calvinist. It's simply the systematized belief that God is good and we are not. One might also recognize it by a different name; Christianity.

[@kellykizer6718]

Jesus said "who so ever" no denomination can save you. Only Jesus saves.

[@adamguy33]

​@@Death2Compromiseanyone who says they are the one true church is most certainly not. Only nut bags say these stupid things and really just belong to cults fueled by man made triditions who dont have a single clue what.the true church really is

[@IJS92]

Stop

[@Tornadospeed10]

That’s a fallacy. You’re acting like denominations don’t have different views on who Jesus was and what he did and taught.

[@asto5767]

@@Tornadospeed10 He's not wrong. If a baptist and orthodox christian believe that Jesus is God and he came down to die for your sins, was resurrected and will come again to judge the living and the dead... You guys believe in the same Jesus Christ lol

[@Tornadospeed10]

@@asto5767 well within that statement there are so many intricacies to what we mean. You could also say the same for Mormons too. Mormons claim they believe Jesus is God and their savior as well. But when you break that up, you find out they mean something different than you do.

[@elizabethburns1449]

So nice to see people being kind and accepting in the comment section. Finally...... normally there is so much anger towards people with opposing views. We as Christians just need to remember to speak the truth in love.

[@l.elmo.di.scipio]

Hi, Gavin, loving your channel, it's very erudite and respectful. I'm a Latin American Roman Catholic. I always had trouble with the same things you two discussed here. The thing is I always searched for the most simple way of living the Gospel. While the RCC has an amazing vault of spiritual and theological resources, it rings hollow to me because of obstacles like the bloated Mariology, for instance. This would make the delights of anthropologists and historians alike, but for a layman, this kills the joy of belonging to this very ancient church. I'm sort of 'drifting' away into Protestantism (not afraid), but it all gets a little anxiety- inducing. Please pray for me! Love from Argentina!

[@barnabaspark]

Praying for you

[@---bl2uj]

praying for you!! dive into the Bible like never before. the Holy Spirit gives us understanding! “Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬-‭14‬ The Gospel is not meant to be confusing. the Bible says God is not a God of confusion but of peace and unless you become like a child you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. May the Lord bless you and cover you with His peace and joy that surpass all understanding :)

[@roses993]

​@@---bl2ujamen!!! Lovely comment!

[@vickihogan8207]

Come to the Table of Protestantism! Freedom! We aren't perfect but we are FORGIVEN and we do believe you are part of THE Church!

[@annamaria9225]

Mr.Gavin ortlund As an ex-orthodox to protestant I really appreciate this video These were some of my concerns too And the testimony was touching!!!

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

How can when i ask supoosed ex orthodox dont have any idea about orthodox church theology

[@cpSharkBlast]

Lord have mercy! You don’t know anything about orthodoxy If you traded it for Protestantism !

[@EmberBright2077]

@@cpSharkBlast You realise how condescending that comes across right? "If you disagree with me you must not understand".

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@EmberBright2077 she supposed was an orthodox just ask her which is the mani word in orthodoxy that shows Deity taken from scripture original language text she has no idea.

[@frennynikki2447]

​@@cpSharkBlast as for me, I was already made aware at 12 years old that there exists the Orthodox Church by my mentor. Like the Reformers, I too share their positive leanings towards Eastern Orthodoxy. I should know I used to have a section in my writings dedicated to my admiration on the EO more so than the Roman Church. However, I do not deem conversion necessary since whether they like it or not both EO and Protestantism have commonalities namely: 1.) The Lord Jesus Christ is the head of the Church not the Pope. 2.) Purgatory is a non-essential doctrine. 3.) Certain ranks of the priesthood can marry. (Though Protestantism takes this further.) 4.) Greater use of the Greek New Testament. Further, it is also part of the EO's history that there was a controversial Patriarch, Cyril Lukaris. By the way, even people within the EO are divided over whether or not he espoused Calvinist leanings, some conceded at various degrees to this while others say he branded Protestantism as heresy. They thought his openness towards Protestantism was nothing more than his political maneuvering to keep his Protestant friends happy . On my part however, I am in doubt that he did the latter since he did sponsor the translation undertaken by the monk Maximos into the Greek of his day. Of which I do hope despite being poor can buy a copy of it in his memory in the future. I should mention that I listen to Orthodox hymns like Psalm 135 and maybe Otche Nash. Πιστεύω εις τον Κύριον Ιησούν Χριστόν και μένω εις αυτόν εις τους αιώνας, αμήν. Credo in Dominum Iesum Christum et maneo in eum in aeternum, amen. (Still practicing both of these 😊) As I've always said, I am an Orthodox but not Eastern and a Catholic but not Roman. I set both professions in Christ. Thank you for your patience and God bless.

[@zewisdom4822]

As an Ex-Orthodox(now a Protestant Christian) I hear his testimony with tears and This interview enhanced my confidence for leaving Orthodox for good.

[@DavidMartin-dj4op]

I’m been studying the Orthodox Church, I am not thinking about converting, just studying to have a better understanding of Church History. Why did you leave the Orthodox Church?

[@haroldgamarra7175]

Which protestant church do you attend? and why not any other?

[@Ryan-zh2or]

It warms my heart to hear of the grace and mercy the Lord has given to the brothers, not to mention myself. May the Lord multiply your joy

[@malachi7948]

Be a Christian, not a protestant, eastern heterodox, or a roman catholic. To be a Christian is to be born again by the incorruptible word of God, and to forsake the wisdom of this world which is foolishness with God. “For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” 1 Corinthians 1:11-13 “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” 1 Corinthians 1:18-21

[@lkae4]

As someone who has been thinking of checking out an Orthodox church, this was the answer to my prayers to stay and fight for my Protestant family. Very powerful. And I can't grow a beard. I would not fit in at all.

[@arianarubytemple6008]

Since I live hundreds of miles from the nearest orthodox church it would be distressing to think that I couldn't be saved outside of the orthodox church.

[@DougMiller-ft7wb]

Drive hundreds of miles to a probably dead church, to stand in a liturgy that's not even in English. Such a universal faith. EO is dead in America.

[@H2ORaccoon]

​@DougMiller-ft7wb There's been an increase in converts to EO, myself included. I'm not sure if you're aware, but a lot of EO churches in the U.S. have Liturgy books that have the translations of the hymns

[@godsgospelgirl]

This is really helpful, thank you. I've been trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy, but listening to Eastern Orthodox priests and interviewees hasn't been as helpful as I hoped. They assume I understand their philosophy and vocabulary more than I really do, haha. So learning from a former Orthodox priest, who understands both Protestant and Orthodox thought processes, helps me comprehend it better.

[@RyanGalazka]

Check out the interview "Rock and Sand" by father Josiah Trenham.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

What philosophy you are talking about .all philosophical methodologies cant drive to any reall knowledge about the Deity . At least educate yourself correct

[@MrWesford]

@Conquering Death That’s the impression I got as well. Many of his understandings of Orthodox theology felt like strawmen, at best.

[@cesarcampos8746]

@@conqueringdeath2559 everyone says that, if you don't agree it's cause "you don't understand"

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

Actually all philosophical methodologies to know about God in orthodoxy are seen as heresy.read the synodicon of orthodoxy to know about the Deity is not by some philosophical methodologies but through the spiritual levels of the life in the Holy Spirits grace. Purification illumination Theosis that is to experience God in his divine uncreated majestic Glory.

[@martynjukes482]

What a blessing this has been. I am a Protestant who has recently started reading about church history. It had me questioning the validity of my faith with antiquity being held up as a plumbline. This has elevated my concerns brother. Thank you both so much.

[@giovanni545]

remember the first beliver in YAHUSHA (JESUS) are jewish-christian they belive in YAHUSHA and kept the torah (law) of God, we see even after the cruxifiction they kept the law of Moses as evidence in Luke 23:56 where we see the women keeping the sabbath day. also i belive the church Historian Eusibieus (i think i spell it wrong ) says the name of first 15 bishops of Jerusalem who were Judeo-christians and who are of hebrew origin. the jewish bishop stop around A.D. 135 where Hadrian had enough of the 2nd jewish revolt and thus outlaw jewish practice in Jerusalem and then Hadrian set up gentile-bishop in Jerusalem who the first gentile bishop i belive His name was Marcus.

[@adamguy33]

​@@giovanni545and the apostle Paul a Jew of Jews had to completely fight of the jews who were trying to get gentiles to basically become jewish and follow Torah and get circumcised etc. So yeah it makes sense that the jewish followers of JESUS to also continue in Judaism , but that is not for the gentiles and acts chapter 15 is not the starter kit for Judaism either

[@adamguy33]

​@@giovanni545also real Jewish scholars with PhDs in ancient languages say that the messiahs name was spelled and pronounced YESHUA so your wrong there. And another thing is the jewish people as a whole have rejected JESUS and only a tiny minority believe in Him today. So until the fullness if the gentiles comes in the jewish people will remain blinded. We true christians keep the moral aspects of the law , but nit the rituals and JESUS/YESHUA is our sabbath rest so we true christians let NO ONE judge us on these things for they where just shadows of things to come.

[@giovanni545]

@@adamguy33 we must keep in mind with apostle Peters warning of apostle Pauls letter as stated in 2 Peter 3:14-17 where Peter warns of how Pauls letter one can miss understand and lead one to there own destruction. also a exemple of how Pauls letter are hard to understand is this in Galatian Paul gave a scary warning to the galatian saying "you have fallen from grace" because they were trying to get circumcise right? well with that in mind why the apostle Paul circumsice a beliver whos name is Timothy? He did it so Timothy could accompany Him in evengalizing but Timothy did not fall from grace because Paul circumsice Him, so then whats going with galatian then?? we also gotta keep in mind in galatian Paul confess that everyone was against Him for judiazing the gentile converts, Peter,the man from James and even Barnabas was with them on gentile convert Judiazing.

[@adamguy33]

@@giovanni545 well that was a then and has nothing to do with today. Judaism, Muslim , hindu Buddhism is all dead religions and people who follow them jew or gentile will go to hell. We as true chriatians today are not to conform or confirm Judaism in anyway. The old covenant is dead and the new one has replaced it and true christians have freedom from the law. The transformational time is over and the nail in the coffin of Judaism happened in 70 A.D.. I am under the law of Christ and not the law of Moses. Pauls heart was for his people, but after time he shock the dust off of his feet and moved on to the plan of God to bring in the gentiles and call a people that were not His . And if you are a gentile and not a Jewish person trying to go under the law that you can not keep in the first place then you will no longer be under Grace. All torahism and Hebrew roots people are decieved

[@matthewmeyer1508]

I found there to be great defenses to many of the arguments laid out here. People come to the EO Church for a variety of reasons. If they come for any other reason but Christ it will ultimately not be sufficient. When looking at why people leave the church that seems to be the common theme. The comments section is no place to adequately respond to the arguments laid out here. I just hope that strong opinions and positions about the church are not formed without personally giving the orthodox life a chance with an open mind. The faith is so much more than what we just think that our decision must be informed by the life as much as the literature.

[@pamarks]

This is a very concise way of putting what I have been trying to articulate myself!

[@GB-ji1sv]

What would you respond to someone who says “there is so much more to Mormonism, or to Islam, than what we *think*” - and that it must be lived to be properly evaluated?

[@markmartinez7715]

@@GB-ji1sv What would you say to someone who says they have the correct interpretation of the Holy Scriptures because they believe the Holy Spirit is with them, yet, their interpretation is drastically different from yours (which you also believe comes from the Holy Spirit). Who is right, and why? Why is your exegesis and interpretation more accurate than the Muslim or Jehovah Witness? What authority governs this? If it's the Holy Spirit, where does He speak his final judgment on the matter? Because the fruits on your end, are just as good as the fruits on the Jehovah Witness' end, they do much evangelism, and they are often more passionate and willing to give up their entire lives for their beliefs. By what authority do you say your exegesis is more correct than theirs when their fruits have the potential to be greater than yours?

[@ramichahin2]

Well, the pagan idolatry that’s in your church and the different gospel you teach is a strong repellent to The Beliefs of The Early Church and will make Christians run away ultimately, youre the modern day Pharisees preaching dead traditions and a false gospel.

[@Tornadospeed10]

@@ramichahin2you simply lack knowledge on what “idolatry” is lol. If we go off the second commandment alone, you and me are both idolaters for having computers or phones with images of what is on earth…. But we’re not, because you require more than an English reading if exodus to understand idolatry because I mean, didn’t got instruct Moses to create golden cherubim and said he’d dwell between them in Exodus? That is certainly a statue and image of what is in heaven.

[@indexclone8130]

Even if nothing has changed from the earliest church fathers in orthodoxy or catholism, let us remember that even during Paul's time, he had to rebuke entire churches, later in Revelation God himself rebuked and encouraged 7 early churches to do better and repent. On top of that Peter himself denied Jesus and had to repent due to Jesus's warning. So the fact that nothing has changed, even if 100% true, does not make it the right gospel. If you go back to what Peter said about denying Christ and take into account Peter's authority to prove his belief is true, that will only lead to a falling away from Christ. Same is true for any of the biggest denominations throughout history. Lack of evidence about other beliefs does not mean an absence of evidence. The biggest institutions will have the support of the emperor, the state, huge funding, numerous scholars and theologians supporting it. This happens even today, an example would be WHO with COVID, how they stated the mask would protect, then it wouldn't, and then doubled down again on their first claim, or that the vaccines would decrease the spread and that was found out later to not be true, or the bat theory. Dozens of scientist signed these claiming them to be true. But this does not mean there were no others refuting these claims, just that they were deplatformed and ridiculed. So all theology in the end, has to bow before the teachings of Christ. And since Christ is the only head of the church and has promised that the gates of hell won't prevail against him church, that he will Sheperd all who call on him and his holy Spirit will lead all to the truth. Please place your faith only on Christ, no church or bishop or pastor or preacher can be the substitute. Follow Christ's teachings, and any doctrine that contradicts must be rebuked and tossed away. Our claim is through faith. While tradition, rituals and practice be damned as they are akin to law in terms that they can not save, only Christ can. So all teaching must be subject to Christ alone.

[@78LedHead]

Pastor Schooping is a great dude. It's so hard to find anyone who came OUT of the high church systems and into Protestantism. Schooping is the first I know of who doesn't stoop to low blows. He just tells the truth, in love and with peace in his heart.

[@bowrudder899]

I read the NT and I don't see hesychasm, I don't see energies, I don't see icons, I don't see the liturgy (which has changed again and again), I don't see deification (as opposed to sanctification), I don't see national churches. But I do see substitutionary atonement. And I do see that EO's ignore the councils that they are embarrassed by. Thank you, Pastor Schooping, for your book.

[@marty6901]

You gotta read the other half

[@bowrudder899]

LOL! 😄

[@hippios]

in other words, you make the false presupposition of sola scriptura without any evidence and base your ideology on a heresy. gotcha

[@bowrudder899]

@@hippios Time after time Jesus said "Have you not read ...?" He held people accountable for what is written and had a higher view of scripture than you do. See John 17:17.

[@Tornadospeed10]

Your argument holds absolutely zero weight because scripture is NOT all there is in Christianity… almost as if Paul spent months and years teaching Christianity and traditions orally… thinking he Only taught what was in his short epistles over the course of years with these places is ridiculous. You’re making a claim absolutely no Christians believed for 1600 years.

[@ahumblemerchant241]

Thanks for this video! It would've been really useful to have this video when I was a young teenager. I've recently been listening to you (started with your discussion with Dr. Cooper on Baptismal Regeneration/Infant Baptism) and I appreciate how level-headed you approach these discussions (as well as critical responses to you). As someone who someday prays to be a Pastor, you've been a good example to me on how to discuss theological issues.

[@TruthUnites]

thanks so much, and so glad to be connected!

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@TruthUnites i see that man never mention as being an orthodox the elder saints experience of Theosis.orthodox theology is based on the experience of purification illumination and Theosis . The difference between orthodox church theology and experience and all western Christianity first im the difference of the methodology each one has to actually know about Deity. That former orthodox actually from his says seems has no idea from all these and see orthodox church theology under the methodology western Christianity does.

[@drummersagainstitk]

Thanks Gavin for doing these interviews.

[@mertonhirsch4734]

On issue 1. Interesting. My dad was an Orthodox Priest who converted from Anglicanism, and he was very conservative, but believed that while we should fear hell, that the concept of eternal punishment was contrary to God's nature, and that God had a plan for the salvation of everyone. He also believed that while the Eastern Orthodox Church constituted the Church and that salvation was through the Church, that that didn't mean that protestants, or pagans or atheists couldn't go to heaven, just that their salvation was made POSSIBLE by the existence of the True Church whether by the prayers of the Church for those outside the Church, or because the Church is the real doorway to the Kingdom of God and so everyone is going to eventually walk into heaven through the Church, if they do. Also, Orthodoxy does not have the same concept of mortal sins (or a concept of sin at ALL) like the Roman Catholic Church. Sinning is swerving or stumbling off of the path as you carry your cross, and JUSTIFICATION (unlike in the west where it came to mean being made square with the law, or with debt) means being made to stand upright and walk the right path. Justification in Greek means to be straightened out, not to have your debts covered. All Orthodox are absolved after death (except those who committed suicide out of despair for whom we leave it to God, but Jesus gave the Church the power to lose and bind. Unlike Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy is not capable of making absolute statements that would utterly prevent anyone from passing through purification. I won't speak for the Church here, except to say that the Church is somewhat mute on the mystery. Keep in mind that we believe that salvation is the path, not the destination, and so salvation is the process of trying every day to walk the path of God's will, and Baptism or initiation is clearly not required as we are taught by the Good Thief, as well as the 40th Martyr of Sebaste. I will take the time to watch both of these videos though, I haven't had a chance to watch all of each one yet.

[@Apologia14]

Bizarre the things people concoct in their heads.

[@sethpawlik]

That is interesting but that is not what scripture teaches.

[@harveygosal]

The Nicene Creed affirms that Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

[@mertonhirsch4734]

@@harveygosal I don't see any contradiction there.

[@forestantemesaris8447]

Wonderful interview. Great to hear his perspective. Thank you.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

He is in confussion

[@doubtingthomas9117]

Good stuff, Dr Ortland. As one who almost swam the Bosphorus 15 years ago, this really spoke to me. Joshua’s three main issues that y’all discussed-ecclesiology, iconology, and Maryology-were the ones that ultimately were roadblocks for me as well, along with the Eastern Orthodox downplaying (if not denial) of penal substitution and imputed righteousness. So I became a traditional Anglican instead.

[@nate296]

@@bersules8 There are plenty of TULIP Calvinists who are also Anglican and it’s totally consistent with the formularies.

[@Hoodinator17]

Anglican😂😂😂 The head of your church (the Queen) just died. Maybe it’s time to return Christ as the head of the church

[@AR-qs2ng]

HAHAH ANGLICAN !? So you would rather have the queen as the head of the Church than Christ. Absolute jokes

[@MrWesford]

@@AR-qs2ng it’s all about the state of one’s heart. If one is hard hearted, they will not become Orthodox. It’s not about doctrinal distinctions or logic, or everyone would become Orthodox.

[@matthiasbrandt1252]

@@MrWesford people don't become " orthodox" because of the errors and unreformable, man glorifying, unscriptural doctrines of those churches. They defend some essential truths, but also beliefs that usurp God's glory and give it to men.

[@devinbrooks3927]

I'm in the middle of stressing myself out on these very questions... and I have been for awhile. This interview came at a good time

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@ApologeticGamer What made you leave Orthodoxy? I've never been, and never been a bit drawn to it, but some are very much. They seem to see it as more devout. It does seem to have a cultish aspect in its claim to being the only way to salvation. The Orthodox seem to me a pretty cold branch of Christianity. It doesn't seem to engender the love the bible inspires us to have, and it's the most legalistic branch of Christianity I've come across.

[@devinbrooks3927]

@@ApologeticGamer I'm baptized and raised evangelical protestant, but kinda grew disenchanted with how much their worship ended up feeling like some sort of "feel good" performance art. And so I always felt drawn to the more ancient church traditions for, what I perceived as their greater understanding of beauty and the sacred. (no one tradition in particular, just in general). but then as I started studying them more, the question of authority kept coming up and realized that every tradition tells you that they're the only way and if you're not part of them, then you're damned and going to hell regardless of your devotion to God and Christ. These are extreme generalities, and I know I could speak to 100 different orthodox or Catholics and they'd all tell me something different. this is just the feeling my anxiety on the topic gives me, hahah.

[@pochomano]

@@ApologeticGamer ​ I really hope these were truly not your arguments for leaving The Orthodox Church, because they sound purely based upon emotion. However I could be wrong so could you expound what is specifically wrong with exclusivism, and do you yourself not hold to a form of exclusivism in claiming that salvation is only found in Christ? In scripture Matthew 7:13-14 Christ gives an explicit example of how the road and gate to salvation is openly available to all, but he says that it is narrow ( being difficult, trials, pressed upon) and straight. And that there are few that find it. If this isn’t exclusive I don’t know what is. I mean with all due respect to you, Dr. Ortlund, and Josh Schooping this anxiety of Exclusivism being leveled at orthodoxy is falls flat on deaf ears. When if you spent any time following conversations between former Christians many who were reformed Protestants(Calvinist) and former Calvinists who are now non Calvinist. You would realize that there are so many former Calvinist that struggled with anxiety of the doctrine of double predestination and election, of this system. Granted i don’t think that someone’s anxiety of an exclusive claim is a solid enough reason to reject it. The fact remains that this sort of anxiety happens in many different faiths and traditions of faith. And even amongst secularist. Yet I really don’t feel I have seen Dr. Ortlund discuss this much. If he has I’ll admit I was wrong. But if he has addressed it I would love to see his response to those that have battled with anxiety of double predestination, and all of the doctrines of tulip. I mean if he is going to address the issue of exclusivism at least steel man your opponent actually engaging In the meat of his traditions exclusivist claims. Truly the only people that can really have a real issue against any form of. exclusivism would be universalists. Which neither of them are. What they did was pretty much say that this form of exclusivism i disagree with because of my understanding of scripture hence it is wrong. Which is fine but to speak about an emotional state of anxiety as if ecclesial exclusivism is the only form of exclusivism that causes anxiety amongst people is silly. What I find interesting is that the end of your comment you also listed worship of Mary needing to be reformed along with its ecclesial exclusivism than you would consider it again. My question to you and mr Schooping is, is if you truly believe that Orthodox both eastern and oriental, Roman Catholic, Syriac, church of the east, and Coptic Christians worship Mary, than wouldn’t this be idolatry? And if it is idol worship according to you, than isn’t it the case that unless someone stops doing it and repents of that idol worship; wouldn’t it be the case that there is no salvation for them?

[@pochomano]

I suggest you at least here the other side out. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3zaq6etirx4jqc

[@pochomano]

@@ApologeticGamer you literally side stepped my critiques, and gave a generic response that doesn’t answer anything. The same Christ of the Bible? Okay so if I hold to double predestination how is this the same God as a non-Calvinist. The doctrines of election and theistic determination fundamentally changes the very nature of God. If you have a different fundamental view of the essence of God than this would logically follow that you don’t serve the same God. Protestants try to deny this is fundamental but honest Calvinist and non-Calvinist at least admit that these 2 positions are in opposition. This is not the only issue, what about Unitarians, or Modalists(which is a heretical form of the trinity) they all proclaim Christ as there Lord and Savior. Yet if you actually understand the differences in these beliefs you would realize that they are incompatible with one another and many especially Unitarians would reject trinitarians. Yet they still proclaim Christ as God and place their faith and trust in him. But many of them would call trinitarians heretics and outside of salvation. Once again engage in specifics not in generalizations. You say not some twisted version of Christ. But this begs the question how do you know that the version of Christ you hold to isn’t a twisted version? Yes it is exclusivism regardless if you pretend it’s not. Try and actually read the definition of exclusivism and get back to me if you want I can post it. Exclusivism has an objective definition. As far as the Orthodox Church not accepting you, we’ll this is from your perspective. For instance if the Orthodox Church is the True Church (the body of Christ) and their ecclesiology is correct. than to be outside of the body of Christ is to be outside of Christ. For how is it that one can have salvation outside of Christ. You can say, just as I can, or even a Unitarian, a modalist, Mormon, Jehovah witness, Calvinist. That we trust In Christ that the Bible teaches. But at the end of the day this begs the question as to who has the right Christ, the right gospel. Which they all fundamentally have different understandings of who Christ is which objectively changes the very nature of the gospel. So it’s not a matter of rejecting you. It’s a matter of truth. people that care about truth and are consistent would acknowledge that these doctrinal differences changes who Christ is and every doctrine that follows from it and how we are saved. It is a matter of not sacrificing truth for the sake of a false unity. Which is what many Protestants especially evangelicals do( I know I used to be one) Which is why the Orthodox Church saying their is no salvation outside the Church is a consistent doctrine that a majority of the Church fathers themselves held to. Even the reformers held to this however they had a different ecclesiology( but their ecclesiology was not as loose and open the way you are purposing and what many modern evangelicals and Protestants proclaim today) So to say the Orthodox Church rejects you is like a Unitarian or Jehovah witness complaining that trinitarian Protestants reject them. Which most trinitarian Protestants do. From the Church’s perspective you reject the church and placed yourself outside. I’m not saying you don’t have your reasons. But it’s merely a matter of from what paradigm or perspective you hold to or coming from. Just like a trinitarian can say no mr Unitarian it’s not that we reject you, it’s that you have rejected God because you reject who God is and have twisted the gospel. This is a form of exclusivism, whether you acknowledged it or not. I’m not saying we cannot be charitable with one another in disagreement or care for someone we don’t agree with. Of course we can. But when engaging in finding truth to make assertions that are inconsistent and side steps the questions than how can we say we care about truth.

[@andrewwoods456]

Many thanks Gavin & Pastor Joshua

[@Hoodinator17]

Anyone can call themselves a pastor

[@marekfoolforchrist]

I listened to the first interview you had with PrSchooping two or three times. Thank you so much for doing these - very educational and edifying

[@giannihatzianmevris1861]

Ex Orthodox here also. When I started reading the scriptures decades ago I realized that a lot of teachings in the Orthodox Church were not scriptural. Praise God for opening my eyes to see His Truth.

[@cortesdozoboomafoo]

Where are you from brother? And can you talk more about your history for lefting the orthodox church?

[@giannihatzianmevris1861]

@jesusalva33 I'm Greek from Australia, I was born into Orthodoxy. I left it in my late teens after reading the scriptures & have never looked back since. My faith and trust is not in a church or a religious institution of any kind, but in Christ Jesus and His Word.

[@sarahwashington00]

@@giannihatzianmevris1861amen !❤

[@jairoquintanilla9357]

And how you came to the conclusion that Orthodoxy is false and protestantism right?

[@giannihatzianmevris1861]

@@jairoquintanilla9357 When you spend enough time in the scriptures and study very early church history, you begin to realize that the Orthodox & Catholic churches had over time developed new dogmas and teachings that were never their early on and were contrary to the Scriptures.

[@ThisGuy1098]

A number of the historical objections to Protestantism can certainly be disconcerting and are worth seriously grappling with, but I find the historical objections (especially when tied to the issue of ecclesiastical exclusivity) against EO and the RCC to be just devastating especially once the development of doctrine becomes apparent. Great video as always, Dr. Ortlund. Hopefully you’ll have Joshua back on again!

[@EmberBright2077]

@Conquering Death Could you explain how those objections are overcome, and what he got wrong about orthodoxy?

[@dananderson6697]

Months pass, no response. One can only conclude that the answer to that question is a resounding "no."

[@zekdom]

Time-stamps 14:07 - 1 Corinthians 12:3, Buddhists or Mormons wouldn’t pass this test because they wouldn’t say Jesus is Lord in the way Paul understood that. 14:42 , 15:40 - Exclusivist claims. Personal judgment is unavoidable. 16:26 - How conflicts and view of bishops affect ecclesial allegiance. 17:42 - Do we need to become historians to find salvation? At some point, we need to ask: where is the Gospel and New Testament? 19:27 - The doctrine of the church is an item of faith; it’s not an item of calculation and mathematics. 22:45 - The church is unchanged? 23:40 - veneration 25:37 - how long does it take for something to become holy tradition? 26:00 - art in history

[@user-en6zl1cm5r]

I also left the Orthodox Church because of its exclusivist ecclesiology. It does seem like a sect.

[@pennsyltuckyreb9800]

Uuummm...... "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." ~ Matthew 18:17-18 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." ~ 1 John 2:19

[@AR-qs2ng]

That's pretty exclusive of you elizabeth to do that.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

Tell me a simple question as you where an orthodox which word is on Jesus Christ orthodox icon and from where in scripture that is taken. Supposed as an being an orthodox you knew that simple thing

[@PetarStamenkovic]

@9:21 I find the tone deafness staggering. Just for context, you have two protestants complaining about the exclusivity of the Orthodox church. Why are they tone deaf? They're complaining that the Orthodox Church says that there is no salvation outside of the Church. How is that relevant? Because Christ _is_ exclusive. _I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me_ John 14:6 You can't be a Buddhist monk and end up accidentally saved, because "all religions are basically the same." No! Either Jesus is God, or isn't. He either established his Church through apostles or he didn't. He either meant it when he said that gates of hell will not prevail against it, or he didn't. There are no two ways about it. So, *_if_* Jesus is God and he established his Church and it is the Orthodox Church, then they have the authority to say that they are exclusive way to Christ. You're free to complain about it, invent new religion or add more palatable addons to Christianity to make it more in your image and liking. But to say that you don't like his Church because it is exclusive, while also proclaiming your belief in "the word of God", is just staggering tone deafness. If the Orthodox church isn't the one Jesus established, who cares what they say? If they are, who are you to demand them to fit to your taste?

[@PetarStamenkovic]

@14:29 *_Obeying the scriptures is just what we're required to do."_* No! You're using your invention and newfound belief that Protestantism is true to conclude what Jesus must have meant, *despite* no early church sharing your view. You're following your own desires, not what the church that Jesus left us teaches. If both the early churches- the Orthodox and the Catholic agree on something, that alone should give you a long long long pause in thinking- am I conforming to truth, or am I conforming truth to my own will?

[@PetarStamenkovic]

It's just sad listening forward. The confusion that multitude of lies we are presented with in no way diminishes the truth. The fact that many people claim to be Christian should not surprise us. Devil is the father of lies. If he didn't lie we could easily conclude that Christianity is false. Truth is one. Path to truth is one. Your fruit argument has merit as it is both true and obvious from everyday life- the closer we are to the truth- the better it is for us. Everything else is false and will end up destroying us. _Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it._ Matthew 7:13-14

[@christusenciaga]

@@PetarStamenkovic As a Catholic, I think this all the time. If gives me great comfort that the historic apostolic churches, despite their schisms, share so much in belief and practice.

[@allikirman2183]

He addressed the fact that he’s not advocating for religious pluralism. Christ established a church, that is people who believed that he was the Messiah and those who trusted in his promises. The EO to claim that their church as in institution is the only way to Christ just doesn’t have that much backing. He also addresses Matthew 7 that those true followers of Christ you will be able to recognize their good fruits. There is no way the Orthodox church can claim that they have all the good fruits and no other churches do. It’s indisputable the ways in which Protestant/RC churches have greatly impacted the world and had good fruit. To be fair you could potentially make the opposite claim about EO, especially in countries that the state religion, with the way it has tended blend with facist regimes in the 19th/20th century. Just an example.

[@Athabrose]

Bought the book, looking forward to reading it.

[@Adam-ue2ig]

Im ery impressed with this gentleman, I wish I had and responded more with the same kind, humble and gentle attitude he has towards those that persecute and attack him (same with Dr. Ortlund).

[@TheRoark]

Can’t wait for this video! I have looked into EO before but had some serious issues with its claim of exclusivity and doctrines. I know some (not all) online orthodox can be very vitriolic about criticisms so thank you for putting this out and blessing them regardless!

[@RoyalProtectorate]

Same, I started out by diving into more eastern church fathers. But what really drew me in and made me interested in was people like father spyrem priest who always produced this sense of practical spiritual wisdom that you feel is more about Christian living and less about dogmatic theology

[@computationaltheist7267]

I think that goes everywhere in Protestantism and the Calvinists are one of the practitioners of this art.

[@jasona.4846]

I have looked into Christianity before but had some serious issues with its claim of exclusivity and doctrines. I know some (not all) online Christians can be very vitriolic about criticisms so thank you for putting this out and blessing them regardless!

[@TheRoark]

@@jasona.4846 I get what you’re trying to get at with this, but I think there is a difference between saying only those who call upon the name of Christ will be saved and only Christians who are in one specific institution are saved and all others, regardless of their true faith in Christ and their trusting upon his name and work for salvation, are damned.

[@donquixote8462]

@Bb Dl Deeply, deeply ignorant statement. I'm on mobile so I won't look back over: here's a starting point: learn the definition of "katholikos", or "Catholic". It does not refer to the papacy, or an institution, or a denomination, at any time that any church Father references it because *the papacy, and denominations did not exist until 1054* and the patristic period was by anyone's estimation, ended well before that. This invalidates your entire, ignorant statement.

[@MontoyaBrandy]

I like to think about the seven churches in revelation. They were not all the same. They all had different issues that God addressed. I see the true church is the churches that bear fruit.

[@alicekurian9529]

Ex-orthodoxy to Protestant #subscribed

[@malachi7948]

Praise God. Ex-heterodox turned Christian. That is a more apt description.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@malachi7948 actually he went against the ecclesia that is actually Jesus Christ

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

Which Holy Eucharist you participate in now.Because the Lord said he that does not eat his flesh and drinks his blood has no eternal life

[@grizzly_8917]

Hah, the exact opposite, and I couldn't be happier.

[@Abyssal-r8d]

​@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας I am sure you must be immortal and a needle can't pierce your body as well since you eat the literal flesh and drink the literal blood that gives Eternal life. Since we are at it, does the bread and wine goes digestion and excretion ? If it does, that means everyone partakes in it, since water is recycled and it goes everywhere.

[@k98killer]

As a seeker who stumbled into an Orthodox parish and brotherhood recently, I have found this discussion quite helpful. I fell away from Protestantism when I was a teen because of how empty the experience had been and how inadequate were the answers and guidance I received, so facing these types of questions head-on is an essential exercise -- giving them a free pass would be a recipe for disaster.

[@JosefFurg1611]

I don't understand something, you converted to eastern orthodoxy? or are just looking into it?

[@k98killer]

@@JosefFurg1611 I was looking into it as an inquirer. They wanted me to become a catechumen and stop asking questions. Accidentally got my brother into their cult before deciding I didn't like having their egregore in my head. I still drop in for social events periodically since I'm fond of the people (though haven't in a while due to a recent and severe illness), but I do not attend their liturgies and other psychic programming events.

[@culpepper7665]

@@k98killer Cult? Psychic programming events? lol... not sure you went to an actual Orthodox Church.

[@k98killer]

@@culpepper7665 I attended a pair of Antiochian Orthodox parishes and a Russian Orthodox monastery.

[@spiderb3367]

It would be really good to see Mr. Schooping dialogue with an Orthodox clergyman and/or apologist

[@j.athanasius9832]

I've met some clergy in the wild who have some *opinions* ;)

[@anduinsuchan356]

This guy is almost like a Reformer of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Way to bring the light of the truth! Semper reformanda!

[@adrummingdog2782]

More like a protestant revert. He never really fully embraced Orthodox teaching at all, was trying to argue that Penal Substitutionary Atonement was Orthodox teaching after he was ordained as a priest.

[@BarbaPamino]

@@adrummingdog2782 you'll always be hard pressed to show True Light to those that can't comprehend the struggles of darkness. This man was a western materialist with spiritual problems who entered the Church and never healed those preexisting issues. So he reverted back

[@ChristopherWentling]

He was orthodox a very short time and reverted to Protestant.

[@lucduchien]

I have respect for the Orthodox Church in the way I have respect for the Amish. They represent a snapshot of a way of doing things at a significant point in time, namely the 7th-8th centuries, and they did not fall into the traps of the ages after that period. This gives them great legitimacy and makes them an important resource for navigating the pitfalls of our day. There certainly is a lot that they have held onto which Protestants would be wise to discover. However, this stagnation also makes it nearly impossible for them to retract, repent, reform. I'm not saying they are blind to all of their failures, but I am saying that they've backed themselves into an impasse position when it comes to recognizing the authenticity of the church outside their communion. A person can agree with everything but feel uncomfortable kissing and praying before icons, and that person is anathema according to the 8th council. There are uncountable problems with Protestantism, but the ability to repent and reform are built into the structure. I think this is a positive for Protestantism.

[@78LedHead]

All of our systems have glaring flaws. Very well said. The story of the Bible is the story of man getting it wrong time and time again.

[@TheB1nary]

“Repent” is at the heart of orthodoxy. It’s what you will constantly hear! Your point makes me think that you have injected Protestantism and it’s tenets into the EO context. They don’t see a need to reform!! Reform from what? To what? The assumption in your argument is then that Protestantism has found truth that orthodoxy lacks, and that until and unless it “repents” it will stay restricted and stagnate more. Interesting 🤔

[@lucduchien]

@@TheB1nary I believe you've misunderstood my point. I do not see this issue as black and white as you assume I do. I also do not believe protestantism has "found" something which EO hasn't. I was speaking to differences in the structure of the organization. There is a rigidness to the view EO has of itself, not EO people, but the institution. If the institution needed to repent, how could it? If it needed to say, "You know, we realize that we have gone beyond the teaching of the apostles and the fathers, we have narrowed the way beyond the Lord's word, we have gone astray and put boundaries to the church which didn't belong. We have condemned when we should have accepted. We have put unnecessary burdens on the sheep of the Lord's flock." How could they do that without first coming to grips with a possibility that they may have erred in their doctrine, something that only happens on Orthodoxy when 1. A saint opposes the church and is rejected but somehow God vindicated him. Or 2. An ecumenical council votes on it.

[@yungspaghetti1685]

@@lucduchien Exactly. The orthodox church teaches that the church cannot err but by doing that they back themselves in the corner. Revelation shows that churches can err and that Jesus can even take their candlesticks. In Timothy, Paul talks about how all the churches in asia separated from him. Protestantism has not just the advantage of admitting error, it also has the advantage of being decentralized. When a protestant church gets liberal or corrupt, the disease can never contaminate all of the other churches. Rome on the other hand is very centralized, all Satan has to do is corrupt the top and it trickles down to the rest. You can see that directly with Pope Francis.

[@tonywallens217]

Protestantism tends towards the Spirit of the age(s). Isn't that a worse problem then clinging to tradition? It's allows for the resurgence of old heresies or the birth of new ones, without offering a way through them. Pastors and their flock are left to discern for themselves, not as a body, the will of God.

[@AdithiaKusno]

Pastor Joshua Schooping is one of the kindest person that I have known for a long time while I was a Dutch Calvinist. Back then when he was an Orthodox priest he helped me a lot on Orthodox soteriological spectrum by pointing out plurality and diversity among the fathers from semi Pelagian to semi Augustinian fathers. It is interesting to note that I do not feel betrayed when he returns to Calvinism. In fact the retention rate among Orthodox convert typically a coin flip. In seminary a brother told me that his Catholic priest left and return to Southern Baptist. I have benefited from Pastor Joshua Schooping before and still benefiting now as it challenge my decision to be a Byzantine Catholic more than a decade ago. As Erick Ybarra pointed out what he assessed is worthy of intellectual and honest conversation. I hope more and more Catholics like myself and Orthodox would take this as opportunity of evangelization to preach the Gospel as attested by the Patristic Consensus with calmness and warm-hearted spirit of dialogue. To this day I still maintain cordial conversation with Pastor Joshua Schooping. He is a good friend to converse with, an honest person who seeks genuine dialogue. I ask Pastor Joshua Schooping privately last year to gather others ex Orthodox and Catholic priests who become Protestant pastors to make a thematic video addressing this topics. I am looking forward for that as it will help us Catholics and Orthodox to clarify Patristic Consensus. I pray may it will be conducted with spirit of dialogue and genuine reflection of the absolute truth that Christ has given to the Church throughout history. Maybe next time Gavin Ortlund could invite both Joshua Schooping and Matthew Joyner together. That would be fantastic.

[@TheChristianNationalist8692]

Sounds great! I am curious, remind me please, Byzantine catholics is under the umbrella or in institutional connection with Rome, or is this the Orthodox that you are aligned with? God rest

[@hendrik1082]

Are u indonesian chinese descent?

[@GuitarJesse7]

“The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.” Proverbs‬ ‭18‬:‭17‬ ‭ESV‬. I’m an evangelical learning more about the historic Christian faith, so you’d think I would side with Joshua Schooping. However, I think these two refutation videos from two Orthodox adequately address Gavin and Joshua’s discussion points. Well worth the listen before taking what Gavin and Joshua say too seriously. kzbin.info2uQ17ijWWo4?feature=share kzbin.info1KwztwUWEXE?feature=share In particular, I agree that he seems to be quite unstable to be going back and forth between theological positions over the years and at times almost seems like he was surprised to learn certain aspects of Orthodoxy that he would have had to learn about and ascribe to to become a priest. Additionally, it did seem awfully convenient that he did his testimony with Gavin, and then came out with a book and did another interview. Like it was a pre-promotion sort of thing. Maybe not, but either way, if someone is truly on a journey and also stepping away from something as serious as the priesthood in a certain tradition, I don’t think it is a good idea for them to then jump into being a pastor in another tradition or writing a book that will be taken as spiritual guidance to others. It seems that this scripture applies to his situation both when he became a priest prematurely, as well as now that he has converted to Protestantism in some form. “He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.” ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭6‬

[@janpiet1530]

You missed an opportunity to ask him why he kept the beard!

[@believer8793]

I have converted over to Orthodoxy being a Protestant for 30yrs. I too have experienced called a heretic and lost lots of friends and friends were told not to talk to me. So I understand this. Yet I did not leave to become,” a millionaire.” but to follow as I see the truth I saw to many divisions in the Protestant movement I experienced many denominations from reform to Baptist to Pentecostal to non-denomination. Each said of one another they are deceived

[@sethpawlik]

But the truth is the Baptist doesn’t say the Methodist or the Church of Christ member or the Lutheran is separated from God- as long as they trust in Jesus as Lord they are saved.

[@believer8793]

@@sethpawlik Whichbis led by the Spirit? If their wrong in one area how many others?

[@TeePee-t9z]

I wish you luck on your journey, always remember Jesus and his promises should be the object of your faith, not the church

[@SeanWinters]

How many orthodox divisions are there? Coptic, eastern, greek, russian, oriental, Ethiopian etc. Doesn't sound that united to me.

[@SeanWinters]

​@@believer8793Both are lead by the spirit, when they are lead by the spirit. God has never worked in theologically perfect people, but in those with the greatest faith. How many of the disciples had perfect theology before the resurrection? How many Orthodox priests have had perfect theology? Considering how many believe you "always venerated icons", I'd say none of them.

[@juarbemike77]

Throughout human history, the search for God has presented itself as a journey with two main paths: mystical experience and intellectual reasoning. Eastern Orthodoxy, rooted in the early Church, leans towards mystical experience, valuing prayer and contemplation as pathways to feeling the divine presence. Conversely, Western Christianity, influenced by figures like Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin, focuses on reason and academic study, seeking an intellectual understanding of God. This divergence has resulted in a rich theological diversity, where Eastern Orthodoxy considers true theology to emerge from the lived experience of God, while Western Christianity views it as an intellectual exercise. The phrase 'The theologian is the one who prays' encapsulates the Orthodox belief that theology is a spiritual journey that leads to the divine mystery. This distinction highlights the core difference in understanding the nature of God and the relationship between faith and reason, shaping the development of theological thought and practice within each tradition. While both paths seek to comprehend the divine, the Eastern emphasis on mystical experience underscores the importance of personal encounter with the divine, while the Western focus on intellectual reasoning prioritizes a rational understanding of God's nature and attributes.

[@orthodoxyinbrokenenglish5250]

I would like to object to the opinion about the Most Holy Theotokos. It was said that it is impossible to turn with a prayer, for a blessing to Christ, if you are not blessed by the Virgin Mary ... This is not so. There is no such relationship in Orthodoxy. But what is there? Perhaps this can be called the word "love". The Most Pure Virgin, whose prototype in the Old Testament was the ladder to heaven, and also the burning bush, etc. - this is an amazing Virgin, Mother of Christ, and Mother of all of us (we believe that Christ on the cross in the person of John adopts all of humanity to Mary). With God, everyone is alive, and - here is the amazing thought of Eastern Christianity - Mary has already risen! Christ rose from the dead and will never die. The prophet Elijah was taken alive to heaven, and he will die, and then he will rise again. Mary the Virgin has already died, and God has already resurrected her - for a new eternal life. What a theological idea! The first after Christ, without waiting for the Last Judgment and the general resurrection, Mary has already risen. We love her very much. She does not obscure Christ in Orthodoxy, but in loving Christ, we cannot but love His mother. And I myself personally feel her love for me - and this is expressed, among other things, in amazing miracles associated with prayers to her.

[@Seeeeeekk]

How do we navigate the weeping icons that produce oil?

[@Francisco-dg4zf]

The same way we are to navigate the appearing of the “Virgin” Mary on a tortilla in some little town in the middle of Mexico lol

[@thadofalltrades]

There are powers in the world that would use deceit to enslave people to certain religious fundamentalism

[@H2ORaccoon]

​​@@thadofalltrades The problem with your logic is that you're now trying to rationalize God and His actions, and this legalistic view of what God can/cannot do is very demeaning

[@thadofalltrades]

@@H2ORaccoon I can't see the comment you're responding to strangely. I don't know what I said lol

[@CharlesSeraphDrums]

As a recent convert from Orthodoxy (ROCOR, same as Pastor Josh!) to Reformed Evangelicalism, I can appreciate a lot of what is being said about the concerns of exclusivist theology found in Orthodoxy, along with some alarming practices and beliefs that simply cannot be espoused when honestly reading Scripture. There is much beauty and truth in Orthodoxy, but it cannot supersede the miracle which is salvation by Grace, the imputed righteousness of Christ - who vanquished death by His death on the Cross - on us, and the holy joy of the Bible.

[@tigger55100]

What is church under the Reformed Evangelical system? I am seeking a nondenominational type of church that is truly bible based. I am really praying on this, very disillusioned by the Eastern Orthodox Church and its teachings and theology. I appreciate any insight.

[@CharlesSeraphDrums]

@@tigger55100 it’s basically the Free Evangelical tradition from Northern Europe with Calvinist theological bends

[@bernardauberson7218]

C’est terriblement mal comprendre la grâce dans l’orthodoxie!

[@bernardauberson7218]

C’est terriblement enragent de voir les Réformés ne pas comprendre ce qu’ils lisent dans la Bible! En particulier la virginité de Marie et les « frères « de Jesus! Une vidéo leur serait utile pour bien comprendre la Bible, par exemple sur ce 😢sujet, par le père Menas, prêtre orthodoxe en Martinique.

[@sauerkrautjr]

​@@tigger55100most non-denom churches are just Baptist. I'm biased, but I'd look into confessional Lutheran churches if I were you. Real Presence, baptismal regeneration, deep history and theology. And all about the joy of the Gospel!

[@melodysledgister2468]

Maybe this is why I always felt so unwelcome in traditional orthodox churches. "Lifeless" is a word I would use to describe these places. Maybe it's because the icons are indeed dead.i was told they were a window into the unseen world. Now I know which world.

[@matthewsouthwell3500]

Hades [As used in Luke 16:23] ᾅδῃ (hadē) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's 86: Hades, the unseen world. Properly, unseen, i.e. 'Hades' or the place of departed souls.

[@Tornadospeed10]

Or because you’re spiritually weak. And I don’t mean that in a mean way but have you even considered you don’t like the house of God because you are spiritual unwell and push Hod away?

[@dallasbrat81]

That exclusivity doctrine of Orthodoxy is a non-starter for me. The proof is everywhere. Jesus is working in Iran, Indonesia, and everywhere the persecuted Church exists. People are worshipping Jesus however they can, and some are paying with their lives and never hear about the Orthodox Church.

[@findlife7838]

Graven Images in the 10 Commandments were detached from the One True God however, in contrast Icons are not detached from the One True God but rather, relationally directing us to Christ our God and saviour saving work in our lives and in the lives of the saints.

[@jg7923]

Just LOL at bowing down to paintings and thinking that it makes you pious to do so.

[@georgehage3841]

Pastor, I submit that you are very much an intellectual, being more in your mind than your heart. Like many “educated” Orthodox in the west you are living through the carnal mind and not through the heart purified by divine grace. I have been to school many years as well and have been down that road of Catholicism, Protestantism, and evangelicalism and have experienced it as but carnal dross in contrast to the living word that is the heart of Orthodoxy.

[@KunchangLeeMusic]

Thanks so much for writing this book Josh - just bought it - 🙏🏼

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

He is absolutely in confusion he confuse orthodox church theology with the administration or catholic claims .

[@zachuram]

@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας I think the one confused is you and your bitter grapes!!

[@TheRealEvilRoy]

Nothing wrong with Eastern Orthodox other than bad theology, they still save souls like many others

[@secundemscripturas992]

Those Gerhard volumes behind Josh are glorious!

[@rolandovelasquez135]

Excellent 👍🏼 thank you

[@OrthodoxDavid]

It’s sad to see Joshua paint EO so dishonestly. I’m a Protestant but he is using micro truths to convey macro lies. Giving misinformation is a temptation we must all endure. I pray blessings on them both

[@adamguy33]

As a EO priest he might just have the inside scoop, unless you do. If so go and debate him

[@karolinaszczudlo9871]

Could you please elaborate on it???

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

Name one dishonest statement he made.

[@Thatoneguy-pu8ty]

I have been on the fence between remaining Protestant or converting to Orthodoxy. I was very convinced by the claims of historicity and unity made by the Orthodox Church. After watching this, I will remain Protestant.

[@harveygosal]

Have you checked out an Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Or have you got an Orthodox Perspective from someone qualified? I suggest reading 'Rock and Sand' by: Fr.Josiah Trenham.

[@Athabrose]

This was great. Spot on with the historical stuff.

[@johnjay7255]

Not really

[@lkae4]

Very powerful interview. This may be how we can start to find unity as the big, messy family of God.

[@adamvillemaire984]

Thank u si much Brothers fié this VERY important vidéo God Bless

[@darrenplies9034]

❤ beautiful !

[@Etheralking]

Bought the book! :D

[@DouglasGross6022]

He says the Orthodox Church can't fix things and that it has changed many things. Pick one; they are inconsistent.

[@SeanWinters]

1. The orthobros have changed many things in the past, while pretending they haven't 2. They also want to keep pretending they haven't changed anything, so in the era of cellphones they're apprehensive to fix any of their obvious problems. No contradiction, if you think for 2 seconds. I know you're used to your "fathers" doing that for you, but you can do it, I promise.

[@IrishEddie317]

What an absolute joke. The byline on this video says "Truth Unites," yet Protestantism is broken into thousands of different sects, each believing something different. Here are men who think that they are smarter than the greatest saints of Christianity at the time when Christianity was wrestling with issues of Christ's deity and natures.

[@geoffjs]

They can’t see the confusion, division & scandal of 000’s of sects caused by personal interpretation which is not of Jesus who willed unity Jn 17 11-23. Every single Protestant is guilty of disunity. No liturgical sacrificial worship in Protestantism as commanded by Jesus Jn 6 51-58, so not “church”, more like a synagogue with prayer & teaching

[@H2ORaccoon]

If only they read the letters of the Church fathers, the fathers have quelled the common burning questions about EO and reassured those looking into it

[@bethsaari6209]

This conversation makes me SO appreciate separation of church and state.

[@adrianthomas1473]

Excellent presentation- thank you

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

Actually he is so confused about orthodox church theology.he mix up the administration status with the dogma belief ...

[@andrettanylund830]

Lutherians are not Calvinist

[@sagadiablo]

This was an extremely good interview with perfectly laid out critique points. Being familiar with EO practices ethnically, and theology through study, it is still oftentimes difficult to lay out critique for people emotionally involved in the, as you beautifully pointed out, EO as a life raft. Thank you kindly, Dr. Ortlund!

[@BarbaPamino]

What you guys don't get and can't get is that The Church actually is a true life raft. Your idle hands theology has never faced true persecution. The only places this Mish mash of heresies ever thrived is in Landa where the state and laws supported it. My people were conquered and enslaved in 1360. It lasted until 1912. This is the Prespa region of North western Greece. All we had to do was deny that God could be man and revere Jesus as a prophet alongside Mohammad. We instead chose to suffer in the world. Own nothing. And Worship and Commune on mountainside secret temples to Christ for nearly 600 years. Your "church" will never endure that and survive. You can claim faith and Jesus all you like but once the heads start coming off your pastors will slowly fall short.

[@sagadiablo]

​@@BarbaPamino Thanks for showcasing my exact point. Eastern Orthodoxy is unfriendly to critique, in any shape, due to emotion, historicity, and claims of exclusivity. Precisely why I said it's oftentimes difficult to speak anything but praise. I'm Bulgarian, all too familiar with the Ottoman yoke, AND the EO. You'd be amiss to say no one converted to Islam - so your whole "we absolutely endured" argument's invalid. Further, you should also be familiar with the communist persecution of Protestantism - a very real case of an enduring church. But even so, this is entirely not the topic of the video, so I'll end my comment here. Be sure to watch the interview, I honestly believe you'll find it interesting; God bless you.

[@BarbaPamino]

@@sagadiablo no offense but you slavs had an uphill battle to find identity. Many didn't come to the church in the right way and then you had to deal with al that soviet mumbo jumbo. I said my people endured almost 600 years. My actual family. There's no emotion in my response. I'm not angry or hyper. Protestantism is simply void of paradosi and theologically heretical. That's just a fact. All I see in this interview are two smug men thinking they know better. We have many plenty of those types in Greece too, but we also have a plethora or martyrs and saints.

[@BarbaPamino]

@Conquering Death his only battle is with himself. They don't like the Truth because we say it and then acuse us of emotion response. I say what I say with complete dispassion. I have no rage in these people. I realize they were presented a broken tradition and thus broken transmission in their own upbringing and parishes and went inwards to themselves to find the answer. If you want to rely on self then protestantism is the way that'll consume you. You can live in delusion and prelest and convince yourself it's for Christ. But you can only do that when it's easy to do so. Persecutions are coming. Protestantism won't survive them. The Shepherd will call his sheep home. I can only hope to be a sheep dog that helps. And for anyone that thinks I'm being too harsh, imagine these people seeing Jesus flip a table and drive out people with a whip. They'd turn on him like Judas did. Because that's how'd they feel inwards.

[@EmberBright2077]

@@BarbaPamino Generally it's considered bad practise to write an entire character to explain away why someone doesn't agree with you.

[@marcuswilliams7448]

Look at all those Gerhard works and Book of Concord.

[@DevinMork]

This is so stupid. Justin Martyr reports he was taught a doctrine of 'deification.' That word isn't even in the protestant vocabulary. Orthodoxy is the only Christian tradition that makes any sense of the records we have of the 2nd Century church.

[@chrisd653]

​@@Death2Compromiseexcept that you will not find prayer to saints (not until late 3rd century or 4th century) and you will not find Marian dogma's (again, later in the late 3rd century and beyond). The origin of Marian dogma is found in the protoevangelium of James (late second century). A gnostic writing. That was the very beginning of Mary worship. I'm sorry, but that's what it is: worship. I used to think EO and RC looked like the early church, but that's because I didn't know what the early church looked like until I actually studied it. There are some things in EO that they get right, but Mary worship, prayer to saints (necromancy, really, and veneration of icons (idols) are not some of them.

[@chrisd653]

@@Death2Compromise 2 things: 1. regarding Mary....you really need to read and study the protoevangelium of James. This writing is the first time Mary becomes elevated. It was written by gnostics (probably written by "Tatian" who started the "Encratites" movement) who were trying to disassociate Jesus divine nature from his physical nature. You will see this in how it goes into detail about the virgin birth. Mary stays a virgin after having him (origin of the perpetual virginity). Also, there is no physical birth, a light shines into a cave and when the light goes away, Mary is holding Jesus. A midwife comes and checks "inside" Mary to see if she's still a virgin. She is found to be "intact" inside, meaning no physical birth actually happened. THIS IS STRAIGHT UP HERESY. I promise you if you research this matter, you will see this as the origin of Marian devotion. From gnostics of all places!!!! 2. There's no issue with God's people going from tents (or underground) to gaining more privilege/wealth/political sway etc. That certainly is natural if time allows, over the centuries. The ISSUE is when God's people join hand in hand with the state. God does not desire this for his people. The people of God should never be "ONE* with the state. 1 Samuel 8: ISRAEL ASKS FOR A KING 8 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[a] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice. 4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[b] us, such as all the other nations have.” 6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.” 10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.” 19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.” 21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22 The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.” Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”

[@Death2Compromise]

@@chrisd653 You seem to be ill-informed because the Eastern Orthodox church has NEVER accepted the book of James as a biblical text and they have NEVER accepted it as a dogmatic nor biblically canonical text. It is not part of Eastern orthodox Biblical canon.

[@chrisd653]

@@Death2Compromise I know that. But it still influenced the church and they still base some of their liturgy on it (Mary's entrance into the temple, perpetual virginity etc). It's problematic.

[@chrisd653]

@@Death2Compromise how do you know the text (protoevangelium of James) has some historical significance? If you review all of the ancient writings on Mary, you will find that this is the very first mention of her perpetual virginity, as well as her backstory. It's not just that this document has historical significance, this document is the origin of Marian dogmas. So explain how you know it has historical significance? Let me guess, because your church says so.

[@roses993]

Glad pastor joshua left orthodoxy. God bless😊😊

[@adrummingdog2782]

Currently a Lutheran (previously evangelical) and highly considering entering the EO church. I thought Pastor Schooping made some pretty good points and also some bad ones. Honestly though, whatever church he's a part of would be a very hard sell for me at this point. I think the East retained a lot of ancient theology that we lost in the West, this is initially what drew me. Then I've just become disillusioned with protestantism in general. Protestantism has just fragmented the Church completely, we can judge a tree by its fruits. There's just no unity or authority, especially in my Lutheranism and in Anglicanism, both of which are the best Protestantism has to offer. Orthodoxy has problems as well but out of all the churches available, it seems to be the legitimate continuation of the ancient church. Like you said Dr. Ortlund, it's impossible reform, I've come to think that is actually a good thing. Not sure what Im gonna do honestly but we'll see. Update since this is still getting replies: I'm now comfortably Anglican, for the forseable future. I've just been unconvinced of EO's general claim of being the only true Church. Seems to me at the very least the RCC and the Oriental Orthodox have as good of a claim on that as the EOs do. Also I'm of English ancestry, and found a very nice traditional Anglican parish near me, so it just makes sense.

[@seanmcelroy9774]

Give the Traditional Latin Mass a try and look into traditional Catholicism. It is beautiful and deep in history and tradition.

[@adrummingdog2782]

@@seanmcelroy9774 I really love the Catholic Church and the Latin Mass, so much beauty, I have family history in the church as well. Unfortunately I have just never been able to accept the claims about the Papacy :( I would love to be a catholic but I just cant genuinely be one

[@seanmcelroy9774]

@@adrummingdog2782 bro I respect your honesty. As far as the Papal chair, what puts me at ease is that Jesus handed over the keys to His Church to St Peter, who is the first Catholic Pope. But when I really think about it, it actually makes so much sense to me that we need a Pope. We need that structure and that Chain of Command and we need that leadership at the top level. I was in the military for almost 15 years and I think of it like having an Company without a Commander. It would be chaos and confusion and a bunch of people who claim to be military running around and doing what they want, because they think their way is best. The Commander instills order and discipline and guidance. I view that position in the same light. I hope what I said makes sense, it made sense to me but that jumbled mess I call thoughts sometimes don’t come out as clear as they are in my head.

[@choicemeatrandy6572]

_it seems to be the legitimate continuation of the ancient church._ What does continuation mean? I don't mean to play this card but if as a Protestant you didn't think that the church as always continued since the 1st century then were you ever really a Protestant to begin with?

[@adrummingdog2782]

@@choicemeatrandy6572 Well there are plenty of protestants who believe the church continued through the centuries of course. I think it's generally the non-denom and anabaptist types who claim it fell away and was restored by the Reformation, at least in my experience

[@kyrstenwilson3111]

This is a very interesting discussion! Thank you both! Coming at this from a protestant perspective, I'm still curious as to what the *problem* with Orthodoxy softening it's veiws on salvation outside the Orthodox church is. Is this not a good thing? It seems fairly consistent to me (as an outsider) that orthodoxy does not require it's saints to be 100% correct, just so long as they are not heretical, much like we protestants treat certain pastors today. & why is it that when the church and state get mixed up, and rebellion against the religious establishment becomes a political issue --why is that a problem with the Church and not with the State? (I know it's both, power corrupts, etc. But. Isn't there a reason the US constitution --the State --lays out that the State should not dabble in official religion vs demanding that Religion have nothing to do with the State? (cf French secularism))

[@Yaas_ok123]

Check Gavin's new book.

[@Angel-cu5mf]

THANK YOU for standing up and speaking out, Joshua! We know you get a lot of heat for telling the truth!

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

He actually is confused of what orthodox church theology is about i guess because his western back round think that having reading some orthodox books he knows about orthodoxy

[@zachuram]

@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας SOUR GRAPES! Um, he has a Ph.D. in Orthodox theology! I think he understands it just fine!!

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@zachuram that is actually the problem but you dont realise it. orthodox Theology is actually the experience of Theosis not at first some university studies.as western christian think.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@zachuram orthodox saints elders of our times such saint Paisios the athonite saint porohyrius the causocalivite saint iacodus of euvoia saint Ephrem of katounakia saint eumenius etc had not even finish the first grades at school but had better knowledge of God because they where Theoptes in the experience of Theosis.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@zachuram you in the west have at first to overcome the methodologies you use, supposed to get knowledge, for the divine. No analogia entis or analogia fidei can drive anyone to the actual knowledge and union with God's majestic Uncreated Glory that is THEOSIS.

[@LaRevolution0]

The ex-priest is wrong. The Orthodox view is that we know where the Holy Spirit is, but not where He is not. We don't believe anyone outside the church will go to Hell, but they are allowing themselves to be exposed to much confusion. We have the -fullness- of truth.

[@Yaas_ok123]

So you are the best and others are less....well thats "Christ like" attitude.

[@niktnik]

Check out The Lord of Spirits podcast 5 Master degrees and 2 PhD for Pastor Seven De Young, You're welcome!

[@leftcoastcvmn]

The statement following 19:20 very accurately depicts what I’ve found in Orthodox Church after being a lifelong Protestant.

[@GK-ku8yj]

All you need to do to make the break from Orthodoxy is confront the Paraklesis with an honest God-fearing heart.

[@johnnyd2383]

One out of twelve betrayed Lord even though he was facing Lord and saw or heard directly about the all miracles He performed... so no wonder in our days there will exist same kind of people who turn their back on the Lord and His Church.... there is nothing anew under the sun.

[@dylanakers7272]

Hi Gavin. Love your channel. You are one of my theological and apologetic heroes (and I'm Catholic). I always appreciate your challenges to non-Protestant perspectives and this interview was not an exception. I'm seriously trying to consider what it would take for me to "de-convert" from Catholicism and affirm the central Protestant tenets. Below is one of two primary hiccups. It's probably not sound, but I have a working hang-up that's something like this: 1. Protestant traditions claim that Holy Scripture is the sole infallible authority to “establish articles of faith.” 2. Holy Scripture interprets Holy Scripture; “the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments are the only rule and norm according to which all doctrines and teachers alike must be appraised and judged” 3. Particular, identifiable, systematic, and incompatible Protestant traditions have developed using (1) and (2) as their authoritative standards. 4. If (3), then it seems that (1) and (2) are not sufficient principles to determine with certainty what some doctrines of the church are. 5. Protestant traditions seem to know with certainty what some doctrines of the church are. 6. The source of this knowledge must be something other than Scripture alone. 7. Protestant traditions seem to have two infallible authorities: Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Another one is something like this: 1. Tradition is esteemed but can be reformed. 2. Particular doctrines primarily distinguish Protestant traditions. 3. These doctrines are defined by Holy Scripture alone as the sole infallible rule of faith. 4. Using Holy Scripture alone, different traditions define particular doctrines incompatibly with other traditions. 4. Either Scripture teaches incompatible interpretations of particular doctrines or an external source defines these doctrines. 5. Magisterial authorities within Protestant traditions define these doctrines. 6. If these doctrines changed, then that tradition would lose its identity. 7. Therefore, some traditions cannot be reformed. I also am unconvinced by Josh's statement along the lines of Protestant traditions acknowledging that they cannot have practical pastoral communion, but are nonetheless still Christians. Some confessional documents seem to condemn Christians for holding different views, namely the Anabaptists for denying infant baptism in the Augsburg Confession and Arminians in the Synod of Dort. These seem to explicitly question the veracity of their Christian faith based on "second tier" doctrinal concerns. Since the basis of these condemnations are from Scripture alone, which is also the source and method that Anabaptists and Arminians use, it seems that Scripture is either contradictory regarding what it teaches on these subjects or these Protestant traditions have a full knowledge of the Gospel contained within their tradition. This claim seems identical to what Catholics and Orthodox Christians argue. I want to know if my reasoning is crazy because I really want to know the truth behind these matters. At this point, it still seems that if all Christian traditions are making similar claims from Sacred Tradition, then Rome has the best historical record for being the most authoritative early on.

[@lukebrasting5108]

Check out a documentary called Protestantism's Big Justification Lie, and you will see exactly why Protestantism is false.

[@denissaarsova5996]

I appreciate this video and the valuable historical perspective 💓 I appreciate all my brothers and sisters and I believe that the Church of Christ compiles of all who have accepted Him as Lord and Saviour and follow Him daily, caring their cross. Jesus saved me last year out of 15 years deep into the new age/occult. It just became so very obvious to me that praying/worshipping/venerating other people (saints), deities, objects, images opens a huuge door for the demonic forces. If you're not praying to God/Christ... you're opening gates that you can't even imagine who's behind. God forbids explicitly not to pray/worship anyone else but HIM simply because of that reason - you're actually not praying to Mary and the saints. You're praying to demons. God instructs us to have nothing to do with the deceased (although they're alive now, in the presence of the Lord), because when the line of death is crossed we have no access to them. This is not meant to offend anyone. It is written out if concern. I do respect Mary and all other saints that lived holy lives worthy of example and even died so that we can be where we are today - in Christ. Think of it that way - in no place a person in the NT accepted worship (other than Jesus Himself). Everyone would point back to Him and give God all the glory. If someone starts praising and exalting you (if you're a humble Christian) most likely you wouldn't accept that and would like to give the glory to God. Why do you think all other saints would be any different, watching you now kissing their images? They died FOR Him, not to be exalted/venerated/worshipped... Jesus is enough 💓 He's the One that gave His precious blood for you. He's the one that resurrected and defeated death so that you can have forgiveness of your sins and a heart to heart relationship with the Living God. That's all He wants. He's the only door to the Father and the only intercessor. Don't make Him jealous. Get rid of all idols. Go back to the core roots of Christianity and the gospel simplicity 💓 Read the Bible 💗 And may God bless you 🕊️

[@ProtestantismLeftBehind]

Thanks for doing this. I’m even now more firm in my Eastern Orthodox faith.

[@adamguy33]

So no matter what evidence is there to prove your church is unbiblical you simply wont believe it. So you follow the triditions of man rather then God. Just as the pharrisees did in the time of JESUS you do now. Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic is Christianity spinkled with paganism and anyone who studies the bible can clearly see this. The blind leading the blind

[@shawnbailey2949]

I was very confused for awhile whether I should leave the Baptist Church for Orthodoxy because they claimed apostolic succession from before the schism of 1054 Thank you Mr Ortlund

[@ChristopherWentling]

I don’t know which Protestant writings he has been looking at but the the Presbyterians did not consider the baptists legitimate and the Lutherans did not believe that the reformed were a legitimate church and on and on and on. Which Protestantism does he believe we can hop on without study? I’m sure it is ones that are close to what he believes.

[@arnoldvezbon6131]

If I remember correctly they were killing each other.

[@Thetruthisnoteasy]

This is incredibly superficial. Listened about the bit about the “good fruit” meaning anyone. Well Christ is often talking about a right way to profess the faith - he points to the Pharisee teachings (less so their actions). The apostles talk exclusivity all the time. You are actually going into relativism which is completely inconsistent with the gospel

[@Silouan924]

Recently converted to Orthodoxy, best decision I've ever made. The fullness of the Christian faith is beautiful. The worship of the rational mind in the west has led to the madness of these schisms. This guy was never Orthodox.

[@oscarestrada6781]

I did the same, finding Orthodoxy was the best thing to happen to me, I plateaued in Protestantism it was shallow and unfulfilling, know I actually feel the presence of Christ in church

[@MrGb1965]

There is no argument against the Orthodox Church being the NT Church.

[@rroymartin]

His top issue is that the Orthodox church is exclusivistic on salvation? Which he says is cultic? Christianity at large is exclusivistic in savlation. Will he leave Christianity now too? These aren't well formed thoughts.

[@Southron-CiK]

Any the beginning he clearly says that Christianity is exclusive. Problem is, the Eastern Orthodox anathematize anyone who is not orthodox. We could agree on Christiology, soteriology, sacramentology, etc. but because I am not orthodox many would say I am not truly in Christ.

[@ProfYaffle]

Finally listened through to the end

[@lastchance8142]

Being a cradle Catholic who converted to evangelical in my 30's, I find this discussion extraordinary. It seems that any institutional '"church" is doomed to be corrupted by "the traditions of men". To me, Maryology is the most obvious of these corruptions. Any dogma which proposes that any created being can augment the salvation of Christ is another gospel.

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

Layers upon layers of idolatry through the centuries. If you follow his word Jesus and the Father will make their abode in you. The rest will work itself out.

[@geoffjs]

You have no understanding as to how Marian devotion brings us closer to her son! Why would you not venerate a very special woman who had to be immaculately conceived to bear Jesus, is the new Eve, the Ark of the New Covenant, Queen of Heaven & is the woman of Rev 12. No human is more worthy of our gratitude

[@lastchance8142]

Venerate yes! Pray to, no. Whoever you pray to, you worship. That honor is reserved for God alone. All the attributes you mention were "added" to mother Mary in later centuries as the tradition developed. Nothing in the scripture or the early church fathers indicates Mary was part of Christian theology. The whole concept of the incarnation is that believers have direct access to God through Christ. There is no longer a need for a "middleman". We have direct access to God through Him. "For there is One God, and One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1Tim2:5) One mediator. And the mediator is Himself God in the flesh! Furthermore, if you are born again, the Holy Spirit lives IN YOU. God is no longer outside of us, but IN us as well. There can be no closer connection to God! Why would you want to complicate God's design?

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

@@lastchance8142 Yes when Catholics and Orthodox claim they venerate the saints or Mary, veneration and worship are a distinction without a difference. Want good luck fishing? Ask st. Andrew. Safe travels? St. Christopher. Want Jesus to answer your prayers? Ask the Queen Mother to motivate him. Ex-Catholic also.

[@abford03]

@@robertwarner-ev7wpJesus and the Father will make their abode but not the Holy Spirit? This is something I often notice within Protestantism, the subordination of the Holy Spirit. He’s God yet He’s hardly ever mentioned. Lord have mercy

[@sampark1922]

Thanks for this great conversation!

[@koba2955]

Thank you very much Gavin for these videos on EO. They have been super helpful in answering nagging questions regarding Church History and Protestantism specifically.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

He actually is confused about orthodox church theology he thinks it is the same as catholism

[@j.athanasius9832]

@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας Insofar as Protestant's primary objections with the papacy goes: indulgences, cult of the saints/Mary, image veneration, strict ecclesiology, justification by faith plus works, Orthodoxy has 3.5/5 of those same issues. [0.5 comes from toll houses which are 100% just Orthodox purgatory, at least from the Protestant (and Westernized Orthodox perspective)].

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@j.athanasius9832 well at first tolls is from Scripture in tbe parable with the rich man that though he will leave so many years scripture says απαιτούσιν την ψυχή σου. For who it is talking ???

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@j.athanasius9832 who are those that demand this night the soul of the rich man and way? That has nothing to do with the created fire of purgatory we orthodox dont believe in created fires from God even for hell . protestants and Catholics believe against scripture that heaven and hell are some created status

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@j.athanasius9832 judgement day Matthew 25:31:46 all call the Lord As Lord meaning the believe him as the text say for what the Lord asks them if they have what? Those are actually the Lords says..

[@michakob92]

Thank you!

[@hesicast]

What was that wedding they attended? You know the one that they asked the mother about the wine?

[@bja2477]

The discussion around the "Anxiety of Exclusivism" is very much to the point and is truly one of the current hot topics for very many people seeking certainty about their eternal salvation.

[@LucasAdmiraal]

Are those Johann Gerhard’s Loci in the background?! Thanks for the video!

[@ethanstrunk7698]

most likely, since the loci deal with bellarmine, any good protestant interested in that dialogue would need it to complete the chemnitz-bellarmine-gerhard dialogue

[@johnsambo9379]

NEWTON - From his earliest memories, Brandon Thomas Crowley said two things were clear: He wanted to preach the word of God, and he was gay. At 37, Pastor Crowley leads the historic Myrtle Baptist Church in Newton. The congregation has grown during his tenure since joining in 2009. The Morehouse College graduate went to Harvard Divinity School before grabbing a doctorate at Boston University.

[@PStuk-jb8yv]

Hi Gavin, Just a general question. Where do you get your sources about the early church fathers. Thanks to your Channel i've gotten interested Into church History and it would be awesome of you could Help! Thanks!

[@delbert372]

Great interview brother!

[@vickiekeene2625]

Oh thank you so much for this!! So very helpful.

[@wessbess]

Great Discussion

[@anatolygoldman3318]

So sad to see such talented priest leaving the Church because of some personal preferences

[@TruthUnites]

it wasn't a matter of personal preferences, if you watch the video to see his concerns

[@theresabrown8078]

He is a jew trying to discredit the True Church which is the Orthodox Church.

[@mertonhirsch4734]

I'd say that my main issue with Protestantism is that I can't accept Sola Scriptura while rejecting the early Church that operated while the scriptural canon was developed, and I can't accept Sola Scriptura while accepting the Early Church that itself could not have turned solely to scripture for doctrine. There are "traditionalist" protestants like the Moravians who accept scripture and traditional and oral doctrinal teaching who I find to be interesting, and they were in fact the first protestants, an did not hold to Sola Scriptura, so it really looks like the exclusive turn to scriptures was a reaction to Papal corruption that both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox agree was wrong, and promoted false teachings.

[@AshtonSWilson]

From the writings of the Church Fathers, we can see that the apostolic tradition was widespread in the early Church. The writings of the NT were used authoritatively in the first generation of the Church, and it is extremely common for the Fathers to refer them as their authority, not the episcopate.

[@adrummingdog2782]

The part about icons seemed a bit overstated to me. There's was not "universal agreement" against images, we have images dating back to the 100s and 200s AD preserved, before the church was "secularized" as Pastor Schooping said. It's a very modern assumption to claim that these images were not being venerated or honored or used at all, that they were mere decoration even though they were placed in liturgical settings! Veneration of martyrs was among the earliest practices to arise in Christianity, also dating back to the 100s AD. If the earliest Christians could kiss and honor the body parts of a dead martyr, and if a lonely husband can kiss a picture of his wife who he misses without sin (which obviously is true), then I can kiss an icon. If a soldier can salute a flag, aka venerate an image, then I can kiss an icon. Same thing. We here in America actually venerate images all the time even though we dont realize it.

[@όαγωνιστής-θ6θ]

It is overstated. All they can ever do is ignore historical evidence and then quote mine fathers preaching against idols.

[@stefang.9763]

The problem with icons and relics worship is that most of those doing this in the east are generally clueless about Scriptures. It is very easy for them to fall in idolatry. In this context, instead of applying the biblical principal of not making your brother stumble, the eo churches prefer to put traditions above the people.

[@adrummingdog2782]

@@stefang.9763 You cannot just fall into idolatry like it's an accident. It doesn't work like that. The problem with many in the west is that they don't even have a proper understanding of what worship actually is.

[@stefang.9763]

@@adrummingdog2782 probably is my poor english, but, yes, being clueless about Scripture and practicing rituals such as in eo, those like this in the east have been for long in idolatry. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJrGkH2nobiigMU While I don't disagree with you statement about the west, this East vs. decadent West rhetoric is just one of their scripts. You think there is a difference ? Maybe, that east has never been too transparent about what's going on in their garden.

[@thomaspalmieri6038]

As a Roman Catholic, the more I studied the matter, it seemed that a tradition had developed where somehow Mary had been appointed as secretary and we couldn't get to Christ without her intercession, when it says in Hebrews that we may boldly approach the throne of grace in Christ. The Co=Redemptrix movement witnesses to the excesses of many devotees. Also, none of her mediating functions are witnessed to in St. Paul's theology of grace. On the other hand, Protestants ignore James' admonition that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much, and that when Tabitha died, the disciples did not go straight to Christ asking to revive her, but went to Peter instead and sought his prayers, which were more pleasing to Christ than theirs and favorably answered. Mary is also mother of the body of Christ, materially and spiritually, and greater than all other saints, who housed the fire of Christi's divinity within her womb. The Marian apparitions at Guadelupe, Lourdes, Fatima, and Zeiton, all accompanied by profound miracles, and the Zeitoun apparaitions especially being witnessed by hundreds of thousands and even photographed, give testimony to her unique relationship to her divine Son, and her ambassadorship toward or even motherly concern and affection for all of the faithful. I will defend the Protestant impulse to strip away all of the metaphysical accretions which had been foisted upon the faith by the Church's theologians, only to replace them with Luther and Calvin's perverse theologies relating to our depraved will and God's depraved will to create men and women with the express intention of damning them forever.