Forward Stroke Leg Drive

Every year I do a forward stroke video, this year was a challenge.
When you do leg drive, do you push on the same side as your "water" hand? or opposite?
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[@armandocampamartinez8307]

I was taught to push with both feet and modulate as it feels right, which results in sometimes using same-feet and sometimes using opposite. Whitewater kayaks are in that in limit length that sometimes using the same side will rotate you, depending on the boat and how well it tracks. There’s also current to think about but that’s another can of worms

[@AdventureOtaku]

Pushing with both feet is something I have never heard. But hey, if it works….

[@soihavetoplay]

Great content love the honest and realistic discussion. I care about technique and practice for it, but totally true, we cannot be a robot all day, best paddles are those when I relax and let it be, will be a mix of sprint, easy paddles and no paddle!!! lol. Understanding kinesiology leads you to one answer on what leg is right, won’t tell but is the one that feels natural. 😊

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for watching.

[@johnjuzbasich706]

When practicing my forward stroke, I push with the water-hand LEG because I focus on pushing the paddle via air-hand using the water-hand for controlling the paddle blade in the water. Because I'm focusing on pushing the paddle via air-hand, pushing using the water-hand LEG creates that "opposing muscles"/diagonal to maintain equal force on both sides of the kayak which minimizes bow yawing motion. (Essentially, moving straight ahead as opposed to wobbling, which becomes quite apparent in a whitewater kayak. Try practicing your standard stroke in a surf kayak, like 8' long and see what happens between yawing versus forward momentum) Pushing the water-hand LEG is intuitive and much easier to repetitively engage in a consistent rhythm for 10+ miles. I found that pushing the paddle via air-hand and pushing with the air-leg which is opposite the water hand (i.e.: what you were taught and propose) actually leads me to have more of a yawing very mild "S" motion in my wake. I tested this in my whitewater kayak. The length of a sea kayak helps minimize and mitigate the effect, but it still happens. By pushing air-hand and pushing water leg, the push forces are offset equally between port and starboard, which minimizes wasted yawing motion from having each push force concentrated on the same side. For what it's worth.

[@AdventureOtaku]

I really appreciate the amount of effort you put into this comment. I want to correct three things. And I am on a phone I apologize for typos in advance. 1. I don’t think it is fair to compare the effects of a stroke in a ww kayak with a sea kayak. They could not be more different. 2. You said you push with the water hand leg and the air hand… opposites. That is what I was taught and usually teach. So you are arguing that I am wrong when in fact we do it the same way. I literally talked about uncoiling the spring of your body from foot to opposite hand. 3. I don’t propose one over the other AT ALL! If you watched to the end of the video I made a point of saying do whichever one works for you and your body and even go on to talk about people with one leg! Thanks for watching.

[@TB-jx7xz]

I learned the way you describe and its how I teach it. Now I can't wait to get into the boat and try it both ways and and compare. Thanks for such engaging content!

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for watching!

[@NANA-mr2vp]

Brett; I agree that the forward stroke is something that is always to be worked on. It’s always a work in progress and I don’t think perfection will ever be achieved. On leg drive; the video being used in this post clearly shows the k-1 paddlers stroke side leg and arm working together. It’s what I”m used to and proposed by Ivan Lawler, Oscar Chalupsky and more. What I think is a point many miss is that the rotation isn’t so much torso as it is hips. I’m taught and teach that the hips rotating are what activates both the leg drive and “torso” rotation. I suppose though that we all have different styles and keys to our performance. Thoughts? Also, comment on the correct email for contact if you will.

[@AdventureOtaku]

My email is Brett AT adventure otaku dot com. The whole point of this video is being missed by a lot viewers - and it is really frustrating/infuriating the number of people who are correcting my stance, when the point of the video was I don’t have a stance on this argument. I made a point of saying at the end of the video, do what works best for you and your body type. Regardless of who is teaching it. Olympic paddlers, coaches, bcu 5 stars, Nigel denis, Nigel foster, nigella Lawson….it doesn’t matter if it feels unnatural to do it that way. Remember this video and in fact this entire channel is aimed at beginners. Do what works best for you.

[@nickthorne5872]

If you want to test this theory yourself. Sit in your kayak on flat ground with both feet on the pedals. Without pressing on the pedals rotate your torso from side to side, note the effort exerted. Now, do the same thing, but press with the foot on the side that your are turning your torso toward, note how much less effort it takes to do a full rotation. Driving the pedal on the side that you paddle helps to power your torso rotation. I'm convinced that is it's main purpose.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Someone suggested the same thing, but doing it on the floor with your feet against the wall. Both great suggestions

[@kayakreflections9987]

Engaging the same leg as the water hand drives my "water hip" backward, rotating my torso and pulling my shoulder, arm, and water hand back. Pushing with the off-water leg, resists torso rotation. Using the analogy of throwing a ball: When throwing a ball, you step forward with the side not holding the ball and you drive forward with the leg and is on the same side as the ball (non water leg), but it is the plant leg (water leg), resisting the forward momentum of the pushing leg that creates torso rotation. In the forward stroke it's not the ball hand that's doing the work, though, it's the non-ball hand. Not sure that adds any clarity now that I read it over but it may help someone. I agree with those who have said it before: it seems pretty clear to me that in olympic paddlers the leg drive is on the same side at the water hand. For what it's worth. Go out and paddle. As long as you're not injuring yourself, find what works for you and do it as much as you can.

[@AdventureOtaku]

That last sentence was all you needed and the point of the video - which most are missing.

[@kayakreflections9987]

​@@AdventureOtaku Yes, many of us are confused. When you say the leg drive is "opposite" you men opposite your "push" hand! I may be a bit thick but I think others are making the same mistake of taking you to mean that the leg drive is opposite the water hand. For me the confusion is compounded from your emphasis on the push of the off water hand. While I do push a little bit with that off water hand, it is largely neutral. Most of the power is created through torso rotation and transfers through the mostly straight arm of the water hand. I fear I have muddied the already murky waters with my original comment. Apologies.

[@martin.feuchtwanger]

@@kayakreflections9987 I think you've hit the nail on the head. Perhaps a lot of confusion or aparent disagreement comes from incomplete and hence amiguous phrasing. Both "leg push on the same side" and "leg push on the opposite side" are incomplete phrases and, actually, could both mean the same thing. Both "leg push on the *same* side as the *water* hand" and "leg push on the *opposite* side as the *air* hand" amount to exactly what racing kayakers do. I'm going to pay attention to any instructors who have an oppinion on this and see if they really do diagree on technique or is it just a disagreement on (incomplete) terminology...

[@steveroberts3102]

It never occurred to me that it could be done both ways. I do same side foot which was comfortable and natural for me. Now I have some experimenting to do. Great video!

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for watching!

[@anninwhack1998]

Your instructions are so helpful for me as a new/early intermediate paddler. I was recently able to do about 4.5 miles on a larger lake bc I used the push method w my legs. Boy my lats felt it the next day so I knew I was on the right track w learning paddling technique.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Excellent. Glad I can be of help.

[@Dagh1]

Am I the only one who sees the olympic paddler at 4:11 extend (and thus lower) his same side leg? Am I losing it?

[@AdventureOtaku]

No you may not be. I think some of them use same side. I said in another comment at first I thought they were using same side, but I looked at a lot of videos when I was editing this, and only used a short clip. I think the vast majority are using opposite side. Do a deep dive into Olympic kayak sprinting - as I did - and I think you will agree with me.

[@jorisvandalon6607]

@@AdventureOtaku I just watched a video on forward stroke, with a K1 kayak, and that also shows the use of the foot on the same side as the paddle goes in the water (kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHqyeZ6lbauJZ5o). To me it make sense because it feels like you are pushing the boat forward with your foot. It must be said that I'm using a greenland paddle which might also affect things. Maybe I should just try out with the opposite foot, just to feel how that is.

[@DwightFitzmorris]

Hi, The decision I made on using the same side foot as the paddle side was when I was pulling the paddle rather than pushing. After learning the PUSH method from your video, I automatically switched to the opposite foot as it made physical sense. Dwight.

[@AdventureOtaku]

thanks Dwight! Glad it worked for you. thanks for watching!

[@lysan1445]

I did 13 years of martial arts before I started kayaking, and I also see many similarities. It's good to know that you do not engage your legs all the time. I wondered about that. I usually only engage my legs when I need to go fast or if wind and waves are against me. It gives me a lot of power. But I can't keep it up all day. It does take a lot more energy.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Exactly

[@iles33681]

Wait what? :) Your videos thought me how to paddle, and I thank you so much for that, but I somehow remembered or started doing the same side push. So when left side is in the water, my torso is rotating counter clockwise and my left leg is pushing to help the rotation from the pelvic. I also enjoy doing the legs too, I use it 95% of the paddle time (you didn't say you do it only for power hehe). I use my legs for conservation of energy... I paddle cca 6km/h, so not fast, but I would do it for 6h. I often end up my paddling with my feet hurting a bit :) P.S I re-winded that Olympic video and slowed it down, but I can only see same side push

[@AdventureOtaku]

I just posted a follow up video.

[@iles33681]

@@AdventureOtaku thank you for the follow up and the answer. All clear, now... I have been doing it the way you're teaching it. Just feels natural, I haven't given it too much thought. You're referencing the hand in the air pushing, and I think somehow some people (me included) think about the hand near the water when you're talking same/opposite. Anyway, all clear now :) P.S. my rhythm breaks in windy conditions with waves. I can't keep it up and end up fighting the sea with my hands only. Any trick you have would be great to hear :) Cheers!

[@lawrencehicks9607]

Nigel Foster is my resource he is a famous kayak explorer and intructor: BCU Level 5 Coach Sea Kayak, BCU Level 5 Coach Surf Kayak, BCU Level 3 Coach Inland Kayak (also 5 Star Award Inland Kayak), BCU Level 3 Coach Open Canoe (also 5 Star Award Open Canoe). I learned from his set of DVD's which teach that you use the leg on the same side as your paddle is on. The object of paddling is not to move water. The paddle stays in one place and the kayak moves towards it. But it's not a big deal the most important part of kayaking is to have fun!

[@AdventureOtaku]

Okay but there is the thing. Nigel foster is wrong. He is wrong because if you are teaching dogma, “it has to be this way” it isn’t going to work for some people. Regardless of how many stars you have after your name. If it doesn’t feel right doing it same side it’s not going to work for you - and this is the entire point of the video. And most of the commenters here don’t get that. They are so locked into dogma “i was taught this so it must be right!” That they are missing the point.

[@SaulShiffman]

I have found that visualization (paddle stays still, the boat is pushed forward), while not literally true, very useful. another aspect of the same is to imagine you're not on water, but on dry land - so the land doesn't move. Others I've suggested this to just find it puzzling; I find it useful. Yet another lesson in 'different strokes for different folks..'

[@Herestheprocess]

I love the videos! I was wondering if you could do a video on how you clean your kayak after a paddle?

[@AdventureOtaku]

For two hours (since you posted this) my brain has been going “didn’t I make a clean up video?” And I finally found it. It doesn’t go into detail, it is mainly just soap and water, email me if you have specific questions. kzbin.info/www/bejne/inOwmH6Al9KAgrcsi=elF2Xfd0FnEsy9R8 make sure you get the ends and inside your paddle!

[@Herestheprocess]

@@AdventureOtaku thank you so much, this is great!!

[@obeewanderlow-key4916]

I came here after your addendum video to tell you that you are wrong! Just kidding, I enjoyed both videos, thanks for making the thought-provoking content

[@AdventureOtaku]

If you were, you would be no different than most commenters.

[@gadgetman_nz4092]

With you 100% on the leg drive and how much/when to use it. To use leg drive physics says you need to also increase the work from arms and torso so only any good for sprints/races. Marathon runners don't sprint an entire race but may leave a little in reserve for a sprint finish.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for watching!

[@bryanb8366]

Low angle paddler, have you ever thought of switching to Greenland paddle? You're thought's. Thanks for the video

[@AdventureOtaku]

Ive paddled the Greenland stick a bunch of times. Just not my thing.

[@fragglekat]

Fun fact: the cross-body snap used in many sports is called the serape effect.

[@AdventureOtaku]

what sports? great term.

[@fragglekat]

@@AdventureOtaku I learned about it in swimming, and have heard analogies to throwing or hitting a ball. kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6rMnZ-vi6t3fpo

[@fragglekat]

​@@AdventureOtakuI encountered the term in swimming and have heard analogies to throwing or hitting a ball. kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6rMnZ-vi6t3fpo

[@maritvansanten]

As with a lot of things, as soon as you think about it, you get confused. So I really don't know what foot I use while sitting behind a desk. Though I do know that I intuitively use my feet only when I want to speed up and let go after that. I was trying to use it more, but couldn't keep it up. Since I'm in for the joy of the experience and not for winning races, after watching this video I'll just let it go and keep doing what feels natural to me. Thanks!

[@AdventureOtaku]

That’s why when I describe it I have to sit on the floor and do the stroke.

[@christophernunez3403]

The best way to do it is the way that works for you. 26 years as a sea kayaker

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for watching!

[@martinhelmke5279]

Great video as always. Focusing on/breaking down our technique increases efficiency and confidence. In this way, you can experience a lifetime of learning while kayaking! The learning curve goes up and up…. I think this is why teaching also makes you a better practitioner. Can you think of situations where you might use one leg drive vs another?

[@AdventureOtaku]

Teaching ABSOLUTELY makes you a better practitioner, almost as good as shooting video of yourself and putting it on KZbin for everyone to critique! I can’t think of situations where I would do one over the other - which doesn’t mean there aren’t any - other than preference.

[@Simon_W74]

When the video first started, I must admit that I didn't know which leg I push off from. It wasn't until you mentioned the fighting stance and working with opposites, did it twig. I just do what comes naturally to me, which is opposites. Which then made me think about how hard it is to do what we called Tick Toking in the Army. Which was stepping off with your right foot and swinging the right arm up and parallel to the ground. which for some came naturally, but to most it was just really hard to do off the bat and needed a bit of thinking about it to do, and felt horrible to try and do. Earlier this year I did the only Skills lesson of this year. When the Forward stroke was being taught. I asked the Instructor if they used their feet to push off when paddling most of the time. after a little while they came back with only when I need to go faster. Which is what I do when I want to go faster, I engage more of my body to do so. I do recommend your pushing the paddle not pulling, it is amazing the number of people that don't push the paddle. When I do ramp it up I naturally do what you are teaching in the video. I have high angled paddles and change the angle of my paddling again as and when needed. Which means that my angle of which I bring the paddle into the water is much higher and closer to my boat. Defiantly a thought provoking video this week Brett.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks brother! Thanks for stopping by, as always.

[@memog8794]

What timing. Somewhere I picked up the same side foot use. Watching the Olympics I saw how dramatic their opposite foot use was. So, of course, I figured I would have to re-learn my mechanics. Felt so awkward I could not keep it up for any length of time. Good to know I am not doomed😂. Will keep trying to see if I feel any difference.

[@AdventureOtaku]

You are not doomed. Thanks for watching.

[@lt7388]

Flatwater is different from sea kayak, Using the opposite leg will give you better balance when you're in waves, while in flatwater race course you don't have to worry about waves, For example on a surf ski leg driving on the same side for a beginner usually ends in a swim

[@AdventureOtaku]

Could very well be, but as a matter of course I never compare surf ski paddling to sea kayak. They are just too different.

[@johndeignan6023]

Gordon brown video where he indicates which leg he uses relative to the paddle in the water: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fHrJqWCHedp7gbM

[@AdventureOtaku]

As I said, his book doesn’t specify. And as I have now said like a dozen times in the comment, it doesn't matter. Because if it doesn't feel natural for you, it isn't going to work.

[@tehbieber]

Interesting, I was taught same side and never questioned it either. Whenever I watch racers in sprint boats I see their knee going down on the same side they're engaging on, so I always just assumed they were driving off that foot

[@Pietjo5]

I think they are

[@AdventureOtaku]

As I have said elsewhere. I think the majority are using opposite side. I watched MANY videos in prep for this, and feel pretty confident. But also, at the end of the day the point of the video is, it doesn’t matter. Do what feels natural for you.

[@slipstream217]

I think they are - you can watch some of Paulo's videos on Dancing with the Sea where he shows his hips rotating and his foot straightening on the same side as the paddle blade that's entering the water, same as the racers shown in the video clip here.

[@tehbieber]

@@AdventureOtaku it's just funny how most people are probably going about thinking everyone else is doing the same thing, and meanwhile we're all split into two camps without realizing it

[@AdventureOtaku]

@tehbieber and honestly it’s better off if we don’t realize it. I have inadvertently done the community a disservice

[@SaulShiffman]

I tried to look very carefully at the video of Olympic paddlers. I see them doing leg drive on the same side

[@AdventureOtaku]

I thought that at first too, but I watched many videos of them and am pretty sure they are using opposite side.

[@Dagh1]

@@AdventureOtaku Opposite of the water hand as mentioned in the video description or opposite of the push hand, which would match your elaboration in the video when comparing to throwing punches? Because I can't for the life of me see the Olympians in the video extending their opposite of the water hand.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Opposite the air hand. I think part of this is seeing what you (or anyone) wants to see. They are moving very quickly. Don’t just watch the clip in this video. I did a deep dive. I think some are using same side, but I think most are using opposite. But also, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. Use what works.

[@Dagh1]

@@AdventureOtaku opposite of the air hand I can agree with. It also matches what I've been taught. Perhaps it would be worthwhile changing the video description, as that references opposite/same as the water hand instead.

[@AdventureOtaku]

No it doesn’t. In the video I say I was taught opposite hand and foot. The vast majority of olympians use opposite hand and foot. The video description asks “do you use the same foot as water hand, or opposite” It doesn’t specify which olympians are using, nor am I implying one is correct. I have no doubt you can find video of it the other way. But I literally slowed down video of olympians to watch frame by frame. But more importantly, also as I said in the video, it doesn’t matter, use what feels natural to you.

[@rickpopham5400]

When I started to kayak 5 or 6 years ago I pushed with the "air side" leg because my instructor at an introductory course taught me that way. I found that difficult to coordinate for some reason, and looked at all kinds of paddling videos. I watched videos of competitive paddlers closely and I invariably saw that "water side" knee go down in a push as the paddle stroked the water. That seemed more natural to me, so I've been pushing my leg "water side" since then. But I've been all about pulling the stroke through the water, not pushing the paddle in the air on the opposite side, If I think about pushing the paddle through the stroke, it will probably be easier to coordinate a leg push on that side. I'm going to experiment next spring. I'll be pretty rusty anyway because I've been recovering from an April rotator cuff reconstruction and haven't been on the water at all this year. Anyway, an interesting video that made me think. Thanks! .

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for watching! Keep thinking!

[@martin.feuchtwanger]

I think your analysis and critique of your intro instructor/course is correct. If you try pushing your hand and leg on the same side you'll find your hip and hand moving in opposite directions. You really want your hip, shoulder and arm to all be moving backwards on your water side.

[@Zak_McKracken]

Just sit yourself slightly tilted forward on the ground and push your feet against a wall. Now push one side of your legs after the other. Watch the movement of your hip bones. There is only one side your hip naturally moves when you push one leg. And that is the biomechancally "correct" one. When you think your other leg is the right one, your paddling stroke technic is wrong. Every olympic paddler acts and had learned it like this, because they have to push their bodies to the maximum. Just do your own research. But if it feels better for you in either way, don't change a running system and simply have fun. A hobby has to be as expensive and ineffective as it can be. Otherwise you should get paid for it.😉

[@AdventureOtaku]

Interesting phrasing. Thanks for watching.

[@MikeSG1960]

I agree with you. I’m opposite side for all the reasons you stated. When you throw a baseball or football you lead with the opposite foot because you much more power. Question for you, how much pressure do you put on your foot peg? I have my foot pegs adjusted so I’m not fully engaged all the time. To fully engage I will press the top of my foot into the pegs.

[@AdventureOtaku]

My pegs are adjusted so that I am in full contact with them, all the time. But I am not always pressing on them. I don’t have to extend to apply force through the pegs. But I am always touching them.

[@marcosgarcianorris]

Im same side. I like to use my buttock to push down and edge when its windy. Same side really helps with that. I teach same side and concentrate on the core of the body being the coil...not all the body. But whatever works...😊

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for watching

[@MutualZebra0123]

I can't say my forward stroke is good since i'm a beginner and i think both my sides aren't equally good, but when it comes to martial arts comparisons to kayaking and hand foot coordination, I get a bit of a sitting oytzuki feeling when i'm paddling 😅

[@AdventureOtaku]

dude, that is a deep martial arts cut! Well done. But yeah, I can see how it could feel like that. Very good.... I do so miss having a dojo....

[@MutualZebra0123]

@@AdventureOtaku yeah, martial arts is fun! But my knee isn't what it should be so i've stayed away from martial arts training..

[@wizeird]

I naturally used leg drive when i started paddling long before i was told/read that you should (at least when giving full power). At that time i used same side, but also pulled the paddle with my arms. When i learnt i should be pushing the paddle with torso rotation it was clearly more efficient, but felt unnatural at first, when i finally did get used to it i noticed my leg drive switched to opposite side. I agree with you that either side is fine. But for me, its indicative of whether or not i'm using my arms or my core.

[@AdventureOtaku]

That’s good, Ill have to think on that and see if it is indicative of an arm pull in myself and students.