FOURTH WING | A DEEP DIVE pt1

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[@ReadswithRachel]

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[@montananerd8244]

Omg I've been in the middle of a glasses crisis!!! I gave up the large, light colored glasses of the 80s (& apparently now), switched to cool versions of nerd glasses from the 90s til now, VERY confident...until I saw the Jan 6 traitor wearing the same pair and, even worse, the same comment everywhere, " LOL, my mom has the same glasses." So thank you, I will check this out, I can't wear 80s glasses, I feel like I'm wearing teeny bopper style, but apparently I have to change things up to avoid the "traitorous grandparent" look...

[@zerozeroren]

Xaden Riderson is one of the worst fantasy names I've ever heard. That's a name someone would give a character if they wanted to make fun of the genre conventions.

[@ReadswithRachel]

It feels like if you fed an AI all the ya fantasy men names, that’s the name it would come up with

[@izmatopia4347]

Riderson? bc, riders? lol

[@ninninin656]

Oh god I only just realised he's named "rider-son", because he's a rider and, ya know, a son (his daddy was unalived by the evil military). God this book is so bad.

[@Aigra]

Sounds like something a fantasy name generator spat out.

[@sofresa127]

Every time I see "Xaden" my brain immediately goes "Caden, Jaden, Brayden" 😂😂😂 Idk why!

[@breenaj1095]

You know, people make fun of men writing women a lot. But uh, this is proof it goes both ways.

[@ReadswithRachel]

fair!

[@zugabdu1]

It's when people write wish-fulfillment love interests that things go off the rails. The moment I heard the name "Xayden Riorson" my eyes rolled so hard I saw my own brain.

[@dragoninwinterfell5213]

Honestly.... sexism is taught to everyone regardless of gender.

[@breenaj1095]

@@dragoninwinterfell5213 So true

[@allbutperfect]

Not nearly as much

[@thelexicon7294]

It will never stop weirding me out how in these predominantly white societies written by pasty-ass authors their protagonists never cease complaining about how pale they are, how embarrassingly slender they are, and about how their stupid blue eyes are just too big for their heart-shaped pale face with their stupidly defined cheekbones and their pouty full lips. Violet unironically complained about her white skin and her natural silver ombre so many times that my Kindle ended up having more highlights than the book has pages.

[@AlexMartinez-nn2cm]

it’s always so weird. even if it’s set in a world where white thin cis people are oppressed (which imho always results in shit like save the pearls) you don’t write in a vacuum. I’m not saying that people with those traits can’t feel insecure but it feels widely ignorant of the IRL experiences of people who don’t fit those standards and how much stronger these insecurities can be when they’re constantly reinforced by society and you see them everywhere.

[@ragingdevi]

But did it have more highlights than her silvery tresses is the real question 😂

[@dreamystica]

@AlexMartinez-nn2cm To build on this a little bit, I would also say that it's 100% a case of white authors wanting to have their cake and eat it, too, so to speak. They want to appeal to insecure, confused young people and otherwise marginalized readers, but they also want their protagonist to fit their ideal beauty standards. You can do one or the other, but both doesn't really work. We all exist in a cyclical reality within the beauty industry where we're all just *one* trait away from beautiful. White women are not immune to this, and even conventionally beautiful women can have insecurities, but they're about a crooked tooth, or a scar in juuuust the wrong place, or eyebrows that are the "wrong" thickness according to current trends. The industry changes so much that no one can really find a comfort zone and truly feel confident. One second paleness is gorgeous, the next it's sickly and everyone should look sun-kissed. POC women are especially alienated, of course, because trends almost never suit their features and skin, and there is a whole expanded conversation to be had in that arena. So you get that combination of an author who wants a flawless power fantasy character, but also wants to appeal to real people, but also wants their character to look like them (i.e. be white), and so it serves to alienate EVERYONE because no one can relate to a supermodel with magic powers who just haaaaaates how long and hairless her legs are! It's so hard being different! As opposed to a believably pretty girl who focuses too hard on her frizzy hair and crooked nose and isn't paying attention to her long eyelashes and breathtaking smile and has to learn that a person's beauty is a whole forest, not just the odd tree here and there, and learn that she's allowed to feel confident and powerful regardless of how other people see her beauty. We've all met THAT girl. She's relatable. We might be that girl ourselves.

[@AlexMartinez-nn2cm]

@@dreamystica yes exactly!!

[@maddym4020]

privileged authors particularly white ones love to live out a fantasy of oppression in their writing. except they don't know what that oppression actually feels like

[@kbird6208]

Can we for once have the tall sturdy woman fall for the short, skinny man? Or must I write my own bad fantasy romance?

[@swucifer]

giggling this immediately made me think of rafiel and queen nailah from fire emblem radiant dawn but you're so right when are we getting more buff women x scrawny pathetic men dynamics huh?

[@annikania2682]

If you want a strong big woman fall for an evil tiny stick woman you could read Gideon the ninth. It is one of the few books I read so far that is actively told from the perspective of the strong big gal.

[@ScoundrelChestnut]

babe if you write the book please PLEASE announce it somewhere

[@samedwards3186]

@@annikania2682 AUYYY I will always shill for the locked tomb, love that series

[@BandFairy]

Be the change you want in the world.

[@AwsomenessRain]

“I’m not like other girls, I’m frail and feminine and like reading instead of fighting.” 😑 I love it when authors create worlds with different gender norms than our own so they can have their main character be ~different~ and still conform rigidly to modern western gender norms /sarcasm A real have your cake and eat it too type deal. 😑

[@DarwinRoger893]

And don’t forget the pale part. Yeah girl, sucks to be so pale and white.

[@ladyredl3210]

@@DarwinRoger893as someone who is actually the color of mayo, it’s so weird

[@aragornsbitch-on3mm]

Sarah J Maas: creates a world with a nonsensical religion, inconsistent history, and rules that simultaneously exist and don't exist, depending on plot convenience. creates a main couple, whose personalities are fanfic tropes, painfully stupid banter, and author-hormones knit together, with a backdrop of corny side characters who are weirdly invested in their sex life. creates a cartoonish villain on the other side of the lopsided love triangle and can't go two pages without explicitly explaining how superior male lead is to him. Rebecca Yarros: .... yes, but what if there were DRAGONS?

[@starry-mantle]

What I wanted from Fourth Wing: Temeraire, but make it sexy What I got from Fourth Wing: "adult" characters with the maturity level of middle schoolers and worldbuilding that makes ACOTAR look like the Silmarillion

[@ReadswithRachel]

OMG YOU NAILED IT WITH THAT LAST PART

[@danaslitlist1]

YOU ARE SO RIGHT

[@Geekofthegalaxy]

They’re adults? I have been imagining high schoolers the whole time with these antics

[@xRaiofSunshine]

😭😭😭😭

[@strangeaelurus]

​@@GeekofthegalaxySAME! I thought they were like 15

[@sunshinebuze]

Tawny I can forgive as a descriptor for skin color but I will NEVER forgive the author who in their synopsis of the book described someone's skin tone as "peanut butter".

[@lulucool45]

omg JAIL

[@kbird6208]

His skin was the color of canned cat food

[@newpage4096]

@@kbird6208pale n sickly 😂

[@NC-dw1ir]

Not peanut butter! What race even is that? Omg, my skin is like that! Noooooooo!

[@mrcrapucinno]

what book was this???😭

[@arieldee2665]

Not having a whole arc where Violet has to figure out how to sabotage each of her fights in unique ways while having someone elude to knowing she's sabotaging her matches during is such a missed opportunity. It would have been a good chance to show her book smarts because she could use things she learned through reading to either game the fights or handicap her opponents without relying on poisoning all of them.

[@ReadswithRachel]

THIS!

[@kbird6208]

But that would require the author to think of unique ways and we can't be putting in that kind of effort

[@giveandtake8428]

You put way too much thought and effort than Yarros did. Shame you're not getting paid for it.

[@shawkins79]

Right?! And the fact that the sparing professor at the WAR COLLEGE didn't pick up on her magical wins despite her fragile bones is a travesty in itself.

[@annajensen7360]

Plus the fact that poisoning the enemy's food will not work in a real battle, so she didn't learn anything and is just as incapable in combat as she was in the beginning. Also none of the other students ever put together the string of coincidences? I find that hard to believe

[@theflickchick9850]

The author really learned the word "liability" and decided to write an entire book series around it...

[@Infestedzerg98]

And the word “Indignation”. I listened to this as an audio book and I think it made an appearance at least once in every chapter.

[@robinronin]

Twenty minutes in and I can already tell that this entire video is just going to be that Glass Onion scene like Rachel: “It’s so dumb.” Author: “It‘s so dumb it’s genius!” Rachel: “No! It’s just dumb.”

[@ReadswithRachel]

This is 100% on point

[@bubbletea188]

I love this comment. The whole scene was so funny.

[@natesamadhi33]

Fourth Wing: ...- **breathes** - Rachel: "I dont get it."

[@Amedyr]

The most far-fetched thing in this whole book: teenagers being told that they can fuck around and ZERO unwanted pregnancies.

[@pettyella6607]

yeah it makes total sense for a MILITARY COLLEGE to allow the possibility of people being pregnant. it's not even like they need peak performance

[@annailina5722]

To be fare, heroin mention protection method before first shmeks scene.

[@Amedyr]

@@annailina5722 Makes sense, but no contraceptive is 100% effective.

[@eldrichnemo9312]

​@@AmedyrRight? We get the older sister doing the typical "now don't do anything stupid at college ha-ha" kind of line instead of something that would make better sense in this universe. I could see a dragon incinerating someone who got their rider pregnant, or a child born to cadets getting removed from the parents and raised by the state then conscripted when they're of age. Or imagine someone coming in already pregnant and the "whatever you carry with you is part of your person" rule mean they bring the newborn on all the missions. Don't you hate it when you can think up more interesting story seeds than the author?

[@buffalowings4247]

​@eldrichnemo9312 I haven't read the book but this would definitely be an interesting concept!

[@dustdesires]

a 2 hour long rant review about a book i dont wanna read but heard about? this is absolutely made for me, immediately subscribing

[@saraferguson1156]

Dude same. Immediately subscribed ❤️

[@opalsandwhiteroses]

One of my biggest pet peeves is lazy, way too convenient plot. She just HAPPENS to be climbing the tree the enemies just HAPPEN to be meeting under who also just HAPPEN to mention killing her at that exact moment? Give me a break 😑

[@tannerjacobi3497]

From the way the book is retold, "happen to mention killing her" isn't weird because it's a thing that everyone is doing, all the time, constantly. It's exhausting.

[@kenzashenna]

I’m not sure whether you’ve finished the book but it’s quite clear that Xaden knew she was there (shadows told him) and held the meeting under that tree in order to give her exposition to their rebellion plot. He hid her in the shadows on purposely

[@setsunaplays]

@@kenzashenna isn't that.. worse? Like the laziest retcon possible for the sake of covering up convenience for.. what? More conveniences? To make the love interest look like a mastermind who knew how everything was supposed to happen before it happened? ACOTAR did the same thing and to me it just feels creepy. Did this girl even have a "choice" to fall for this guy? They're so "respect women" coded while simultaneously written like they're plotting and planning the main characters entire lives to slowly fall in love with them by being the hero at just the right times. How is that not like insane levels of manipulative 👀

[@raro344]

@@setsunaplays Because the ending reveal he never want to do that, Xaden is the quinesencial bad boy dream: He is mysterious and look menencing but really is easy to see it never want to do a bad thing to her, so it always strain between this "Oh my gah he will do something but also he is so sexy". Like nothing said bad boy behavior that Xaden saying three times "please, you dont want this" while starting to having Sex and Violent was hornier than her dragon.

[@suc125]

She was going there for several nights I think. Yes, it´s strucked me too that it was a crazy coincidence, but there is some (although very weak) explanation, like most of the time in that book (like accepting the children of traitors and hoping the dragons would be "character" enough not to bond with them)

[@briimilli]

“He falls.. and dies. So I guess he won’t be doing long distance with his girlfriend.” 😂🤣🤣💀

[@ReadswithRachel]

Dark humor really jumped out there

[@emmyrose233]

Can we get more books where the love interest isn't stupidly obvious from page 1? I'd much prefer to see characters fleshed out on their own first and THEN the author can decide who the best love interest would be, if any. Part of the fun with romance subplots is watching characters slowly come to the realization that they're into one another. It's why I fucking hate that so many publishers market books based on tropes now, a la "enemies to lovers"- it completely ruins what could be a fun little twist when you go in with the knowledge that two characters are gonna bone. Also Xaden is a stupid name. That's all.

[@Kaffee_auf_ex]

THIS! So accurate.

[@thelexicon7294]

And here I felt unseen with my surprise love interest kink. Preach.

[@TheTrueKarin]

Exactly!!!

[@Marscandy1]

Seriously, right?

[@dimsunstuff]

Xaden's description made me laugh so hard. Not only is "there was so many words and I don't know what he looks like" a perfect summary of it, but the way the mc narrated it sounded like she skimmed over his face, then took a moment to thirst over this man's tiddies before remembering that his eyes are up there and carried on.

[@dustrose8101]

she mistook his nipples for eyes

[@ThennaryNak]

As a veteran the military portion of this is causing psychic damage. It sounds like what a young teen would write if the believed all the military propaganda they saw/heard. Seriously, why aren’t they being sent through some kind of basic training before being selected for the super special dragon course? Did the author need to make the main character’s personality trait “being in love with Xander” really that quickly?

[@RoxanneCanRead]

The author was a military wife for 20 years. On her website it is one of the first things she mentions about herself, so it must be a large part of her identity. I would imagine it inspired most of the novel.

[@hezekiahrose2743]

And she’s THAT clueless??

[@kenzashenna]

Her main trait was being smart and bookish, and not athletic and fierce like her older sister, wasn’t it? That’s how they always described her.

[@oceanoffandoms3766]

It did state that Mira, the sister, was training and preparing since she was at least a pre-teen (so presumbly, so did most of the others), while Violet was training as a scribe at that age.

[@infinitecurlie]

Same. I've just been like wait what? The entire time. (I was enlisted and reading it just hurts me).

[@opalsandwhiteroses]

There's currently a literal waitlist for a dragon... But also, let's basically draft more people to become dragon riders 🥴

[@elladee7777]

And let's give the rebels children(who has every reason to hat them) precious dragons and magic powers.I'm sure the are going to be loyal

[@giveandtake8428]

Let's just kill off potential soldiers you NEED to fight. Makes total sense--not.

[@subroy7123]

I hope romantasy can evolve past the Wattpad-writing-style phase because I really love fantasy and would love to read good romantasy too.

[@hozyaka]

In all honesty, there’re better-written Wattpad works than whatever Fourth Wing is…😭

[@Moony1568]

“Romantasy” is actually quite old. I’m sure you can find a diamond amongst the rubble if you look.

[@aizuni]

fr I want to read a WELL WRITTEN, smart fantasy book with good worldbuilding and an amazing love story. Preferably a book series

[@jammydodger5838]

Wizard and glass still unbeaten for a romance in a fantasy series

[@idrabohm3678]

I will forever love Robin Mckinley's works. It's less on the romance side, but The Blue Sword is amazing.

[@emmyrose77]

the way xaden 💀 is described is so presumptuous. its like the author is saying if you dont think this man is the hottest man to ever man than you're insane. its giving fangirl describing her reasons why she loves *insert fictional bf here*

[@lycianempire]

I'm tempted to send this book to my friend with EDS but the odds of her killing me for inflicting bad representation on her are pretty high. And we study forensics so the likelihood of her successfully disposing of my body are equally high.

[@mxngos7493]

LOL this made me laugh. So I just got diagnosed with hEDS after fighting for so long to figure out what was happening to me and my personal opinion is that while it isn't the best representation, it is at least getting people talking about EDS. It is very underdiagnosed, even though it is rare, and it isn't talked about enough. So even if the representation isn't accurate, there is now a conversation going which is uplifting people with EDS's voices, which is a good thing. As for your friend, it depends if this book is her taste lol. Personally, I love trash and I mindlessly read things then watch KZbinrs like rachel to get more educated on the issues later on lol. So if your friend is like me, she might not mind it. Otherwise... yeah probably not.

[@allypatterson2625]

@@mxngos7493 Hi! I have what was formerly classified as Type 2 EDS, classical-like. I had fun reading this despite its flaws but I kept thinking “There isn’t enough PT, exercise programs, or physical medicine appointments in the world to keep from destroying my hips if I was constantly thrown from the back of my dragon” 🤣 had to suspend ALOT of disbelief for that one.

[@mxngos7493]

@@allypatterson2625 Literally! Or being grabbed by the talons to get back up. Or being punched repeatedly. Or people grabbing my limbs with tons of force. Yeah, my joints would pop out so fast xD

[@olyally]

I’m interested to know if the name EDS is actually used in the book? Because it’s named after two doctors in our real world. So if EDS is explicitly used, I’m kinda confused since this fantasy world presumably would’ve had different doctors who discovered their version of the condition

[@mikouf9691]

There is no name give to the main character's condition, just descriptions of her symptoms. The author and four of her children have EDS, which is why she wanted to write about a character facing similar challenges.@@olyally

[@superskh]

It would have been super easy to justify the constant violence if the dragons tended to bond with killers or those with bloodlust. It would show the dragons' callousness for human life, make it like a death cult which adds such an interesting layer to this Elite Force, and could be turned on its head when the female lead ends up chosen by something despite being one of the only people whose hands are clean. Which could be unique to this dragon, or a twist that they've all been misled, or some other kind of explanation that changes the entire narrative. Also my roommate has Elhers Danlos Syndrome and just...no. There should be mentions of mobility aids REGULARLY. Also the worst part is that bones just pop out of place on their own all the time. My roomie has gotten used to finding a hard back chair when they pop a rib and leaning back on it a certain way to pop it back. But sometimes they can't, and just live with the chronic pain. That's my biggest gripe, is the failure to mention the constant level of pain someone with this disability would have. Something like this should have gone through a sensitivity reader or two. Not just thrown to the wind. Why don't these writers find these insane holes and nonsensical details in editing? Why don't beta readers point it out? Why does this stuff keep getting published????

[@mxngos7493]

Just wanted to comment and say I feel for your roommate (just diagnosed with hEDS). Also, just know that your knowledge of how she is feeling regularly is most likely very appreciated. I wish I had friends who took the time to understand what I am going through, lol. I know it is the bare minimum, but sometimes we have to celebrate the little things.

[@Moony1568]

To answer you last few questions: it’s because the author did not hire beta readers, sensitivity readers, or developmental editors. They wrote the book, sent it straight to an agent and that’s it. Agents and publishing editors do not edit books. Their job is to make it marketable. Since the trend right now is ACOTAR-esque “fantasies” they saw The Fourth Wing and went “yup we can sell that.” Yarros should have gotten an developmental editor way before sending it to her agent as that is what a good author is supposed to do, but she clearly didn’t do that so we got this mess.

[@KR-vu9mo]

Well I believe the author has this condition so I don’t know that it’s fair to critique their own perception of it.

[@infinitecurlie]

​@@KR-vu9moexcept it is fair. In the book, the condition comes up when it's convenient. Not in a way that the protagonist has to work their way around it. She falls off her dragon hundreds of times and gets caught, that, normally, would have broken her. It could have been rectified with a small little thing saying something like there's other people with her condition in the scribe/healer Quadrant, but they've been able to do XYZ to still do their job. The way it's written is that you just have to tough it out, which no matter the condition, that's just a terrible way to put it. The point is that it's bad writing. Even with the condition they did a terrible job of representing it for the reasons I just typed. So it is a fair criticism.

[@rebecca537]

@@Moony1568 i find this weird because surely she has the money to at least hire and a single beta reader or author, since she has so many books under her belt, and yet??

[@justokayemilay6029]

Oh no. Ehlers-Danlos is a genetic disorder. I have it. It creates faulty collagen, which can result in hypermobility, frequent dislocations, heart problems, eye problems, digestion issues and sluggish bowels, and constant injuries. I actually see a sports medicine doctor. ED makes the skin stretchy and easy to tear and scar, but is described as 'velvety' in texture. My fingers, elbows, and hips dislocate weekly. But it is a dynamic disorder that varies wildly from person to person and day to day. It's genetic, NOT related to sickness or fever. Yikes.

[@Shalaena]

I haven't started watching yet... I have Ehlers-Danlos Hypermobility type with the oh so fun joint dislocations and the skin so soft and frail it's more like silk than velvet (and a chronic migraine to go alongside it!) and now I am so afraid of what ableist nonsense I'm about to hear...

[@danaslitlist1]

You’d think Yarros would’ve caught that! I had no idea!

[@Liter8ure]

I have cEDS. I'm a little horrified by this representation.

[@blueai5022]

I was just about to comment the fact that it's genetic! My mom has it, and I'm pretty sure it's not because her birth mother got a fever while pregnant with her, lmao.

[@AlexMartinez-nn2cm]

I can’t speak for anyone with EDS since I don’t have it but that just feels so disrespectful that the author didn’t even attempt to get basic information correct. There are plenty of disabilities caused by disease, she could’ve easily picked one of them with a five-minute google search :/ EDIT: I just learned that the author has EDS, so I backtrack on what I said since it’s not my place to speak on the rep written by someone who has it. However, there are a lot of good discussions in here and some of the reviews linked so I recommend checking them out.

[@thecakegarden5324]

Honestly, I think this video has brought what Booktube has been needing, more Emperor's New Groove. Love it 10/10

[@starry-mantle]

Makes me want a rewrite of this book where the main character is replaced with Kronk. It would be an instant 5 stars from me.

[@ReadswithRachel]

@@starry-mantleplease do this immediately

[@thecakegarden5324]

​@@starry-mantleWhat she said

[@kbird6208]

I spent half the video trying to remember the name of the movie.

[@Cakelynn6]

I sooooo loved all the Kronk in this video, 5 stars 👏

[@the_eerie_faerie_tales]

This reminds me of when you're playing with dolls when you're younger and you're kind of just making stuff up as you go along...

[@Tareltonlives]

It seems to be a phenomena of wattpad-level writing gaining traction via social media publicity. So that's basically going to promote cliches and stifle creativity

[@krow5099]

Really I agree with you 1000% as an author myself. Social Media hypes this mess up so much it’s ridiculous, but then again people don’t have a lot of Media or Reading Literacy to notice the major plot issues in this book. Overall, publishing companies really put these books out to count on the dumbest folks to read or buy their books. 🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️

[@opalsandwhiteroses]

Everyone take a shot every time Rachel says, "With an X." 😂😂😂

[@kbird6208]

RIP everyone's liver

[@ashannaredwolf8485]

Thanks, I'm dead now. 💀

[@dededeedles]

Or take a shot every time she says, “I don’t get it.” 😂

[@Thatdumbgremlin]

I like to describe this book as a literary Frankenstein’s monster, just a ramshackle narrative formed of tropes and scenarios from other popular books that executed the elements used way better. Like, Divergent is there, Game of Thrones is there, SJM seemed to be heavily used as inspo, Xaden (lmao) is an amalgam of five different book boyfriends, the prose is startlingly reminiscent of Crave, and one of the character twists in the third act was ripped straight from The Legendborn Cycle. The definition of derivative. But at least the dragons had personality.

[@ReadswithRachel]

Oh I agree. In conversation the dragons are cute. I like em well enough. I’ll talk about that in part two.

[@alisaurus4224]

Unfortunately i think the bonded dragonriders thing is taken from Anne McCaffrey’s Pern books. Dragons psychically bond with riders according to the dragon’s choice, and also have traits according to their color

[@cricket8875]

@@alisaurus4224 This! Maybe I'm just showing my age, but every time I see someone talk about this book, I think "Oh, so it's Dragonriders of Pern mixed with cliched YA teen dystopia tropes." But you're the first other person I've seen call out the connection and the way the bonded dragons/riders read straight out of McCaffrey.

[@zombei_kid]

@@alisaurus4224 It literally stole the Wings/Wing Leader thing from it.

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

Rachel said that the book gave her the impression that the writer and his editing team weren't interested in crafting a well-thought world, but (judging from this video because I haven't read the book yet) I feel that the author and her editors are so deep into fantasy literature, and they borrow so much form the media that precedes them, that they don't even notice when something is not explained properly. In a way it reminded me of Ernest Cline, he has this very specific type of _tell, don't show_ that works ubder the logic of "the reader has seen this situation play out in movies hundreds of times, so I only need to tell them 'it was like in the movies' and they'll fill the important or emotional bits by themselves". Again, judging by what Rachel read in the video, it seems the author built a world out of pieces from other media that felt so cliché to them that they didn't noticed when te pieces didn't fit together

[@LightningEnvy]

I read it for a book club, everyone rated it 4.5 to 5 stars. I gave it 1.

[@ReadswithRachel]

Oh noooooo lol that must've been awkward

[@sardonisms]

I have to know how that meeting went.

[@LightningEnvy]

@sardonisms it was awkward lol. I would say how I didn't like something and three others would say why they liked it

[@svvansong]

I can just tell the author thought she struck gold with the idea of having Violet rattle off information about the world when she's trying to avoid literal death as a 'calming' measure, as if it isn't one of the worst cases of telling instead of showing that I've ever seen.

[@rebelbelle1388]

Everyone and their mom is hyping this damn book right now, which means only one thing- I'm not reading it. Thank you for taking one for the team, Rachel.

[@quirkyblackenby]

real

[@exocutionn]

Glad to know I’m not only one who’s petty like this lol

[@rizzobeloved]

The average person reads about 2 books a year. If a book is popular, it's very likely it's being read by people who don't read very much, hence the writing will likely be subpar and if it's fiction, the world building will be average, if not horrible. The Hunger Games is the exception

[@26349]

@@rizzobeloved To me it’s still a mystery how this book(fourth wing) got published in the first place(and became a NY Times bestseller yay…) It has everything that agents and editors are warning writers about when they are saying that nobody will move beyond the first couple of pages of the manuscript(aka: exposition dumps from the very start, poor robotic dialogues, cliche characters and tropes left and right). Idk how it was picked up. Idk how it was published and no obvious flaws were fixed. But at the same time beginner or yet unpublished writers are destroying themselves and their self-esteem in attempts to hit all the good marks and avoid the things which won’t get them published, allegedly; when some people just go write down their nonsensical stream of consciousness and publish basically the very first draft they got, and they gain success(hi, divergent series).

[@winwinner6674]

We definitely need a club only for us who didn't read this disaster of a book lmao

[@andrevivedmysoul]

The exchange with your husband about whatever the hell that LI description was killed me. "There were so many words and I don't know what he looks like" That's how I feel!

[@ReadswithRachel]

The only reason I have a clear picture is because I’ve seen fan art which doesn’t bode well lmao

[@erensalias]

As somebody with EDS and knowledge of mid evil weapons I have two bits of input! 1) Morningstar-tail (?) does follow the theme of the other dragons have [weapon]-Tail names (which are still so stupid and I hate it it feels so half baked) as a Morningstar is a type of club with a spiked ball on the end! I found the naming conventions stupid but that one did make sense to me personally. 2) I am SO conflicted on the EDS representation of this book. As other people have pointed out our condition is GENETIC and it could have been such a cool tool in the story of her mother maybe had EDS and instilled that internalized ableism into her daughter that Violet was then able to grow from, this is a common occurrence with people who have any type of genetic condition. However no, her mother blames it on the fever. I suppose this could be a way of showing just how Little the mother cares about Violet that she doesn’t even know what is going on with her health, however IT WAS NEVER CORRECTED!!!! It here SHOULD have been a scene explaining to Violet that it was genetic because THIS IS A REAL SYNDROME IN THE REAL WORLD. If it was fantasy? Sure! But not correcting it is BLATANTLY irresponsible because even doctors in the real world don’t know about this condition, so it’s up to us to correct people about this. Also, as somebody with EDS, A high impact body intensive military training program is something NONE OF US IN OUR RIGHT MIND WOULD PARTICIPATE IN! “Don’t let your disability define you!” Bullshit, to love your disabled body with EDS is to know and respect your own limits to keep yourself healthy and from deteriorating. “But the story shows anybody can be a hero despite their disability!” SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A SCRIBE THEN! The book says dragon riders are soooo special, but it also makes it clear she physically cannot handle their training regiment. It gives a false sense that we can ‘push through’ when the whole story should have been about her mother being ashamed of her being a scribe and everyone underestimating her because of it and then her BREAKING THOSE EXPECTATIONS TO SHOW THAT EVEN PEOPLE WITH LOW IMPACT JOBS CAN HELP CHANGE THE WORLD AND BE GREAT!! She could have become the greatest scribe ever and proved her mother wrong and prove to the readers that you can still be successful while respecting your limits as a disabled person even when other people don’t believe in you because we are just as valuable as everyone else. This story needed a completely different main character and Violet deserved a completely different book. Thank you for listening to my ramblings💕

[@whatareyousayinggirl]

100% agree. i also have EDS and feel like Yarros just wacked Violet into the setting with very little thought for how it would actually impact her day-to-day and general wellbeing. it's INSANE to have her doing fist-to-fist SPARRING, and not have her suffer consequences of that outside of "ouch this person dislocated my thumb/shoulder".

[@amara560]

Appreciate you sharing your thoughts! I don't have EDS, but do suffer from other disabilities severely affecting my day to day life. I have an honest question. Why do you feel conflicted about the representation? Just the fact that Yarros tried to include EDS or something more than that? /gen

[@nikhilsinha7730]

Medieval*

[@taylorgayhart9497]

I *hate* how this opens with ZERO build up or world building. Like a few chapters with her mom and sister, and showing her life before the college, would give this book more stakes, and make it make more sense.

[@thelexicon7294]

Oh thank god, someone's on my side. The Fourth Wing is a disaster.

[@wootwoot5486]

Very much so. Hated it. SO. MUCH.

[@dopex89]

Same heree, I feel validated finally 😭

[@dragoninwinterfell5213]

I say this as someone who writes and reads fanfic, but I wonder if the increase of books like this (terrible dialogue, reliance on tropes over character/relationship development, world building that makes no sense and constantly shifts to fit the current moment only to be forgotten a second later) is in part due to the increase in fanfic authors getting published. They're used to having an established audience that is willing to handwave all but the most egregious problems away just to get fan content for their ship. They also don't have to create their own fantasy worlds since that's been done for them. So when they transition over to publishing professionally, they still have those bad habits ingrained in them. But the far larger issue, of course, is that publishers are putting things like this out and calling it good. They could have worked with the author to iron out the dialogue, world building, and character work.

[@krow5099]

Agreed 1000% also we gotta take into consideration that the publishing world is still racist as fuck in 2023, so they will take anything with a white-pulse and bad writing and all, and it’s b/c they fear that POC writers would be better than what they have been putting out for the last 15 years writing wise. But I blame that 50 Shades heffa for this trend. Also as well I know alot of writers of color who have been treated poorly under publishers as well; at this point just get kindle unlimited 😂😂😂😂

[@yoshitheorbit1118]

And also put that the fanfic community is conformist as hell, any bad writing habits you have get worse due to the cult of nice that there is in that community, and the smallest critique on a flaw of someone's work gets you seen as an anti, fun ruiner and book banner Karen. Oh but they want to be seen as legit writers and their work as legit art even though they have no tolerance to criticism. Also, they're all "gaslight gatekeep girlboss" made people.

[@h2o2630]

As a fanfic writer for oh 13 yrs or so you are so correct. I love fanfic but it’s place is not in traditional publishing at all

[@strwbrrytskki1054]

THISSS like at least in fanfics the characters are already ESTABLISHED (like you said) and it’s very much encouraged to put them in tropes/au’s to explore them and their dynamics even more, in a way that everyone LOVES seeing (coffee shop, historical, modern, enemies to lovers, etc au’s), hence the tags, but it just doesn’t work in published books because while the author might already have the characters fleshed out in their heads (so they think), the readers aren’t there yet but are expected to just go along with it. fanfics are a fun little part of fandoms where the writers don’t have to try too hard because it’s just for fun and they don’t need to be experienced, but it’s a very different story when it comes to actual published authors. i’ve said this before but it really does feel like these new “booktok” books are enjoyed by people who never went through a wattpad/ao3 phase or just read books at a surface level

[@Athena908]

Not to mention a massive rise in the notion where you CANNOT criticize a fanfiction author in any way shape or form because they’re “giving us content for free!!”. So then you end up with fanfic authors who really aren’t that good at writing, with overinflated egos, who get published and start churning out bad re-branded fanfiction as novels. And people who don’t read get sucked into it because they don’t know anything else.

[@ElenaVarg]

2:13:43 ”I’m not transported, I’m at home asking questions.” is a whole mood lmao

[@ritikarc5709]

I am full-on pretending that I didn't hate this book as much as I did in order to maintain my friendships with my reader friends who are obsessed with it. But I AM questioning their taste, yes

[@equinoxcrow]

The modern language used in this book enraged me so much. Even now I feel like flipping a table over it.

[@sava-smth]

Ikr!!! Bitches be wrighting high fantasy but using 21st cultural references like girl you're not a genie from aladdin get! a! grasp!

[@danaslitlist1]

I saw a Q&A clip of the author saying it's because she wanted it be "accessible" because so much fantasy is too "hard to understand". I just think she couldn't write in a high fantasy setting and that's why the dialogue/modern language is so bad

[@equinoxcrow]

​@@danaslitlist1So once again its a booktok author who was too lazy to put in the work.

[@kbird6208]

It would be so easy to avoid

[@ReadswithRachel]

Accessible? Rebecca plz

[@calofantiquity]

I saw someone say “it’s giving Dauntless” when talking about how great they thought the book was and that was all I needed to know I’d be in for a rough time.

[@ReadswithRachel]

Oh it’s absolutely derivative of dauntless like you can practically see Veronica Roth’s fingerprints all over this

[@kittyhawke2701]

I feel like a much better framing for the beginning of this story would be if Violet wasn't actually supposed to join the academy, sneaks in against her mother's wishes (why would her mom be so dead-set on sending her to almost certain death, I cannot make that gel), does it to prove herself, perhaps bonds with a dragon against all expectations--it'd be pretty cliche but cliches become well-known for a reason and they typically work if used properly. It would give the rest of the story a sturdier foundation.

[@darkdream1469]

Much better! It would have also give the protagonist a better character arc.

[@jacksonconnell]

Now that sounds like a plot story I would be latched on in reading, cliche or not

[@vashtibandy1614]

That’s the book I thought I was getting. 🤦‍♀️

[@thegingergosling9997]

This makes so much more sense than her being forced in, repeatedly offered a way out and refusing and THEN complaining that her life is a mess - I can't find the exact quote but it's essentially that

[@raro344]

@@thegingergosling9997 That is more or less 30 something pages, Dain offer him a way out and she is like "No, I just want to continue" first for proving her mom but before she want to be a rider, which is nice but.....well, stupid, it didnt help that was the first signal that Dain would become a douche for the rest of the book.

[@Eli_Jart]

This deep dive is the perfect example of “There’s a lot to unpack here, but let’s just throw away the whole suitcase.”

[@danaslitlist1]

Bless you for this video Rachel, I can’t wait to watch it! I have had such a hard time with this book as a disabled reader. On one hand I don’t want to tell other disabled readers not to like a book (and I won’t) but on the other hand I know we deserve BETTER representation. It was really harmful to see the trope of “I’m disabled but able to do everything else you can because I pushed past my pain” on page. And to see this being hyped as the pinnacle of disabled rep. It’s also been extremely exhausting having to argue with a mainly nondisabled fan base about WHY and HOW Yarros can still reinforce ableist views while being disabled herself. That aside the writing and the world building is so lazy. Yarros claimed she wanted to make it accessible but to me it was flat out lazy writing. Using the word “October” in her OTHER WORLD FANTASY?! The school felt pointless and unnecessary additional high stakes were placed in there for no reason. Why would this military academy who desperately needs soldiers and dragon riders allow students (with almost NO REAL TRAINING) to just go out and kill each other? It felt like a bad hunger games rip off. So much of the issues I had regarding Violet’s disability was because of how she was at the school and we could’ve rewritten that plot point out and gone a different route (maybe if she was a Scribe at an army base and somehow met a dragon without a rider, the dragon chose to bond with Violet thus making something unheard of in this world). I only made it to 80 pages because I couldn’t handle how juvenile everyone was. Violet was peak “not like other girls cause I make sexual comments and also look at my different hairrrr!!”. The love triangle right off the bat had me just groaning too. This really felt like a first draft of what potentially could’ve been a really good novel if maybe the author had taken the time to collab with an established fantasy writer. Edit: I also have to say that Hiccup and Toothless in HtTYD did the disabled dragon rider and dragon story 1000x better

[@ReadswithRachel]

The war college will never makes sense to me! The issues you have with the disability rep make sense. It felt, like Mari described it, very "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" about her disability.

[@sakurablossoms94]

There is literally no continuity in this book. And the characters are so dumb, especially Violet.

[@danaslitlist1]

@@ReadswithRachel so true! I was talking with a friend about how (in a bad way) it felt as if we removed the disability from the book, not much would’ve changed in terms of Violet’s choices or actions. The fact that the message comes across as: if you just push through, you’ll be just fine and can fight and run and do it all. When disabled people are told that all the time. Hell, I was told that when I was in the hospital, that if I just tried harder I’d feel better. Like I did that for 2 years; pushed my disabled body to the breaking point to succeed and it backfired so badly. I was miserable the entire time, I was in severe pain the entire time, the strain wasn’t worth it.

[@danaslitlist1]

@@sakurablossoms94 I was really shocked by the errors that the editors didn't catch? Like Violet saying "Thank God" as in the capital G "God" associated with Christianity but then says there's many "gods" with no clear explanation?? Or how the instructors said "No killing" but one guy breaks someone's neck?? Which is FINE APPARENTLY?! but the minute Violet gets hurt that is not okay?

[@blueai5022]

I'm also disabled, and the thought of another disabled person telling me I can do anything an able-bodied person can if I just *push past the pain and believe in myself* is...gross. I don't know her, so I can't say for sure, but it feels like there's some internalized ableism that Yarros needs to work through? Or maybe it's some kind of wish fulfillment, like, "If only I could just push past my pain and do what everyone else can!" Either way, it's horrendous rep.

[@OptimisticAudience]

I read Dragonsong in elementary school and that set the bar for dragon riding fiction. A new dragon riding book must beat a kids book from 1971 and few do.

[@hedgers2005]

This! Pern is my go-to dragon world, and no other creation has topped it for me.

[@reihwan]

Yes, same here. I read all of the Pern dragonrider books that were available in the library (which was a whopping 4 or 5 of them in finland, but I was 12 and english was my third language) and have yet to find one that would have at least as vivid world building.

[@pharoahcaraboo9610]

I’ll be starting Dragonsong soon, finished books 1 & 2, and I feel like one thing a lot of dragonriders fiction that came after Pern tends to forget is that like… for all intents and purposes Pernese dragons are horses. It is horse girl fiction except the horses are firebreathing genetically engineered lizards. The bond between riders and their dragons is warm and sweet and Impression scenes never fail to make me feel fuzzy. Why would I want to ride a thing that hates me a la this book, as opposed to the intelligent and gentle Pern dragons?

[@gerdkelr3425]

"why aren't the dragons enslaving the humans?" I asked myself the same question the moment I found out that they are sentient lol. If you want that question answered then you gotta read Serafina by Rachel Hartman.

[@paperbackreader]

The passage describing the love interest… I’ve seen what I needed to see. This book was on my TBR list but it’s a wrap ☠️

[@bats550]

You mean you don't like his ridiculously well-sculpted chest? 😆

[@ps1hagridoufofcharacter]

@@bats550 i've seen enough of that in mediocre fanfic. seriously, there's so many "artfully sculpted chests/faces" and "freaking abs" in the stuff i've been trying to read recently. just finding something decent has been a struggle even in big fandoms/popular ships, not to mention the rarepairs i've grown obsessed with. it kind of disappoints me that i can't escape it even in edited and published works that passed so many eyeballs before getting on the shelf. am i being too picky about the genre?

[@bats550]

@@ps1hagridoufofcharacter I feel like a lot of these authors read in a book about a man being sculpted of marble and then said bet, imma make this my entire personality. On a serious note, I do think its annoying and used in place of good imagery that would actually help us understand the main character's attraction to the person. It is similar to me to making a character contrary just to be contrary with no apparent motivations. I think it can be passible in fanfics where the characters are already given a decent description and background in their original writings and it is just meant to show the main character's desire, but to use it as the main identifying thing and constantly bring it up in an original work is annoying for sure.

[@Evan_L_Rodriguez]

It’s such a small thing, but I believe what was meant by “Morningstar tail” was that the dragon has a tail like the weapon morningstar, which is just a ball with a bunch of spikes on it that’s usually flailed around on the end of a chain. So it has a ball with spikes on the end of its tail.

[@kbird6208]

Yes, my childhood RPG experience agrees

[@hezekiahrose2743]

Isn’t there one like that in the How to Train Your Dragon movie??

[@Evan_L_Rodriguez]

@@hezekiahrose2743 Maybe. It’s a common dragon design.

[@cozy_kelpie]

Overly pedantic response to an old comment, my apologies if unwanted. I just like sharing information. If it has a chain, it's not a morningstar; that's actually just called a flail. A morningstar is when the spiky ball is fixed on the handle. It's a type of mace.

[@ckrahnke5]

Kronk really putting in the work today, I’m loving it.

[@ReadswithRachel]

The real star of fourth wing: kronk

[@ObsidianNebula00]

I love how much Emperor's New Groove clips are popping up throughout this review Also the face I, who grew up a military brat, made when you said "a military wife wrote this" cause hoooooooo boy And like did her husband not have any questions about why this military academy is so nonsensical? Make it make sense

[@kbird6208]

her husband probably gave up after ten pages.

[@infinitecurlie]

Naw fr tho. I feel like I've been being super harsh saying that she should have known better as a mil wife because she could have just...asked? Researched things about ROTC or naval academy? But I've been on both ends of enlisted and spouse so it's also easy for me to say that because of my personal experiences. (Hope that made sense lol I'm super tired).

[@jerricatisdale1296]

I feel like there is a very small group of us who at least vocally say they didn't like it. I didn't hate it but it was just okay to me in a narrative manner. But I feel like a weirdo for not seeing why people worship this book and having many issues with the story and how the fandom treats the story and characters (aka the whitewashing Xaden issue). So I appreciate reviews like this that don't just echo the popular opinion.

[@moustik31]

Marines made a twitter-thread roasting the author's romance set in Afghanistan. It's been a while, since I felt so appalled.

[@danaslitlist1]

oh my god her WHAT?! Yikes yikes yikes

[@taylorgayhart9497]

The world building and character development in this book are messy. Like we are given three different three different reasons that Violent is paler and weaker: 1. A fever her mom had while pregnant 2. Her dad keeping her in the library 3. Her having a genetic disorder that makes her more prone to injury. None of them actually make sense except for the last one, so focus on it.

[@Draqer]

Its of course possible the fever was coincidental to the genetic disorder and her mom is just blaming it. Wouldnt be the first time a parent does that.

[@PriyaPans]

Also. The first two reasons aren't actually watertight. A fever while in utero could have various effects ... BUT with good nutrition, exercise and such, a child wouldn't necessarily be weak. In terms of being kept in a library... Well firstly the whole pale thing doesn't mean you're strong. If you were indoors at a gym, you wouldn't tan but you'd be strong. And body builders who compete in shows use crazy self tan to get that emphasis for the show. In terms of being in the library... Sure she'd be "normal" strength, in terms of someone who isn't a gym rat. Loads of regular people don't play sports and climb trees. If she's a real bookworm, she'd be carrying a bunch of books. BUT even IF she's pale and weak. Generally speaking the army/training would beef you up AND teach you to use the strength you have properly. The limiting factor she actually has is her genetic condition. I think it's great that she's written a story about someone with a genetic condition that impacts strength. But there's a way to do that that makes sense. It wouldn't be forcing the main character into a position where she has to pretend to be strong. It should be about using wits and brains and tactics and diplomacy and education in a smart way to get to the same end point in a less bloodshed-y way. About her showing off that she's not a liability for all these out of the box reasons and perhaps changing how the system works in terms of killing off weaker individuals.

[@taylorgayhart9497]

@@PriyaPans​​⁠you’re right, even the connection between being pale and weak DOES NOT MAKE SENSE because they don’t have anything to do with one another!! Also, she had been training hard for SIX MONTHS, that means she was at the peak of her strength and would have at that time spent six months out of the library, if her stamina and color didn’t change in six months, they never will!! Like the bad boy being like “oh you just have to train and you’ll get better” NO SHE WONT!!!!!! He should be encouraging her to use her wits more and not less because she has a genetic condition that says she CAN NOT get stronger. Honestly it sounds like this is turning into a story about how if you just “challenge yourself” and work out just a little hard, and you can overcome you GENETIC DISORDER and if that’s the case I will be livid. I have a genetic disorder that causes me pain and because of that I can’t work out like other people can, so I’m weaker. If I had a dollar for every person who said I just needed to just “get stronger” I could take myself out to the most expensive meal in NYC *and* leave a good tip!!! And guess what, that’s not how that works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@taylorgayhart9497]

@@Draqerut then she also blames her dad for keeping her in the library, and believes that Violet can overcome her genetic disorder by just working out a little harder. It’s messy and doesn’t make sense.

[@Draqer]

​@@taylorgayhart9497 I mean she could one hundred percent believe both of those things as well. What little we know of the mother she seem to have fairly high expectations of her children and could geniunly believe Violet can overcome her disablity with hard work. Its not like there arent parents like that in real life after all. If she does think like that she could very well consider the father keeping Violet in the library to be part of the problem since it kept her from training.

[@GhostHelwig]

Admittedly I haven’t read this book myself, but so far it sounds like the author read Divergent and just added dragons and more sex. And somehow made the world make even less sense (which, I had problems with the world in Divergent too, so that’s kind of impressive). I’m amazed at how many glowing reviews I’ve seen when a lot of these problems are so obvious. But at least people are reading, I agree with that, too.

[@Nicolesid1]

Honestly, I think the Yarros only watched Divergent then wrote this😅

[@indomitableB]

@@Nicolesid1 lol. 😂

[@jessieburgess9431]

Oh my gosh I literally said the exact same thing to my friends who had read it and pressured me to. It reminded me exactly of Divergent and it bothered me the entire book.

[@saturnash]

Knowing my agent or any editor would never ever let me get away with these egregious plot/worldbuilding holes makes me soooo mad this book is getting so much hype.

[@powerpuff4ever]

I felt bad for DNFing this book when a group of friends and I were buddy reading this and everyone was ecstatic about. I feel highly vindicated with this

[@catnipclementine]

So, Violet totally ends up getting two dragons, right? No way she doesn't have that adorable feathertail on her team in part two. Gotta love our super special main character fantasy girlees.

[@ohheychaim]

own voices reader here and i have been struggling with EDS for about five years now. the representation was extremely disappointing and i felt almost offended by it? but then I read other own voices readers that say that the representation was amazing so i don’t know if im wrong or not. but I HATED how her internal ableism was never brought up in a meaningful light. i suffered from internal ableism when I first got diagnosed with I was 14 and it would have been interesting to have yarros dissect violet’s own ableism towards herself and how it clouded her view of her own strength. but I think I maybe was expecting too much from a romantasy book lol.

[@danaslitlist1]

You’re not alone! I don’t have EDS but I have a disability that manifests some similar symptoms and I felt pretty offended as well!

[@ReadswithRachel]

Hey, even if everyone else feels like they’re happy to see themselves reflected in a book, it’s okay for you to feel your feelings on the rep. Your feelings are valid.

[@tiramisunsun]

Same, I have another physical disability and still struggle with internalized ableism, and I feel like the author did not do a good job at representing this part of the character. In fact, it made me dislike the book even more.

[@mxngos7493]

No, because you're so right. I'm actually dealing with my own internalized ableism (coupled with fear of being a burden) right now which I think is why when I initially read Fourth Wing I thought it was an accurate representation. I think that situation could potentially apply to many other readers as well. I think there is a benefit to the inclusion of Violet's disability though, and that is that more people are becoming aware of EDS and actively researching the condition to become more educated on it. I just got diagnosed with hEDS after literal years of pain and doctors thinking I was just accident prone.

[@jinphany.]

the only thing i can think of is maybe yarros didn't want to be too technical given it's a supposedly fantasy world? but then again if she can say the word 'October' is a month in this fantasy world there's probably no excuse.

[@opalsandwhiteroses]

Violet: "How did you know?" Rachel: "Um... Because literally everybody got poisoned 😂🤣😂🤣."

[@onefocus5882]

Two hours of Rachel content? Bless

[@ReadswithRachel]

I truly cannot stop talking ever, lol

[@VirtuallyViktoriyan]

With the promise of two more monster length reviews to follow!😊

[@ZenitsusDad]

I will never forget the day I learned that it only takes 6 pounds of pressure to break a neck. You’d think that having short, difficult to grab hair, or at the very least strict rules about keeping it pinned up, would be priority for students’ safety. But that’s just my critical thinking again.

[@bookworm209]

One of my best friends hated this book, but was also fascinated by it and asked me to read it so she'd have someone to talk to about it. And I love her very much, so I am *suffering* through this thing. This video has been a wonderful boon in my time of need. I can only do a few chapters at a time before I have to take a break due to annoyance. When that happens, it's nice to come on here and listen to you recap those chapters, pointing out all of the things that were driving me crazy, too. It's hard to pick a least-favorite element here, but the fact that the school is clearly designed for drama and not based on any sort of logical military training is strong contender because it's such a constant issue for me. I'm no expert, but I know enough to go, "How are the riders functional as a military force if training makes them hate and distrust each other? You say that they die young and training takes three years, so a lot of them are going to end up knowing each other from training. Why would they suddenly view each other as comrades after years of mistrust and assassination attempts? And why is it be a rider or die once you've signed up? Normally you fail into a lesser branch because you're still an asset. People are a limited resource." The fact that only a forth of the kids make it to graduation would be a mark of shame on the country if these are the most elite youths they have to offer. I get some death, I might even buy a forth of them NOT making it, but three fourths dying is stupid for a country that has been winning a war for 400 years. This is especially true for the rare signets. Like, if Daine has this super special awesome power that makes him a massive asset to the country's intelligence efforts, then why is he being allowed to risk his life in death school? You think they'd yoink him out and send him to intelligence training!

[@marytreaty9357]

Also she has eds, yet all her injury happen for a reason. I have a hyper mobility disorder and the more you dislocate the more it happens. For my shoulder or hip it used to only happen with over exertion, i had to give up dance because of it. But now i will wake up with a dislocation. Also she constantly talks about blocking out pain, which isn't accurate to me. As a chronic severe migraine sufferer i can still do things while in a certain amount of pain, but theres no blocking it. Its always there

[@ReadswithRachel]

Yessss hi fellow chronic migraine sufferer!

[@marytreaty9357]

@@ReadswithRachel haha, right back at you!

[@bequerelyonaka602]

Seeing a lot of other EDSers similarly disappointed in the shallowness of the rep in this book but I have an additional gripe beyond the minimizing of a multisystemic chronic illness to a few injuries now and again. There is a very specific kind of chronic illness rep that gets written, especially in genre fiction, where the ill protag is always a thin cishet white woman with an invisible illness. This is particularly heinous when it comes to EDS, which is severely underdiagnosed in non-white people due to racist diagnostic criteria and has been noted to disproportionately affect trans people (as told to me by my top surgeon). The fact that this protag is literally from an aristocratic class is such a disservice to the majority of disabled people who live in poverty. I'm beyond the point where I'm willing to accept this bland, nonintersectional disability rep just because it's "own voices". Whose voices? Rebecca Yarros does not accurately represent EDS in this novel in my opinion, and I resent the recommendations that are marketing it on the basis of having "a main character with EDS".

[@ReadswithRachel]

This is completely fair and understandable.

[@madelynnwoodard844]

Agreed as another EDS haver. Was genuinely so disappointed.

[@shanzRF303]

You’re also forgetting that her disability basically disappears after she works out and gains muscle - sending the message that if you work hard enough your chronic illness will vanish. Made me so angry reading that

[@laurenwinsorstenmoe]

Fellow EDS 🦓 here! 🤍🖤 Your comment was so validating to read. I was so excited when I found out that the character and the author has EDS (after getting 1/3 of the way through, and realized her symptoms sounded alarmingly familiar and Googled it. LOL) but was so disappointed as the book went on. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop moment, that moment that always seems inevitable with EDS, when you push yourself too hard and approach burn out, so your body decides to explode, and it seems like a million things all go wrong at once and you end up incapacitated. It would’ve been great to see something like that happen, or even for her to have flare ups or bad pain days where she ends up stuck in bed, or show some of the multisystem involvement or comorbidities. Especially in the final battle (where Violet’s EDS seems to magically disappear), just to show how difficult and unpredictable it can be to live with EDS. Instead she becomes almost super human, and that really worries me about how other people might view those of us with EDS. They might think that if we just push ourselves hard enough, will get “better“, even though it is absolutely not that simple. Also, thank you so much for sharing your EDS experience as someone who identifies as trans. I didn’t know that many trans people have an EDS diagnosis, that is so interesting to me! I’m definitely going to research more information about that. One of my doctors, who now specializes in EDS, has a strong working theory that EDS is not as rare of a condition as previously thought, that it is actually way more common, and it affects a hell of a lot more people than anyone would ever think. But too many don’t have the time, money, access and/or resources to get a proper diagnosis. Even though the book could do better, the one thing I am glad for is more awareness of our disease. And having reviewers, like Rachel, talk about how even she is concerned and disappointed in the disability representation in the book, that helps with the unfortunate presentation of EDS, so I am grateful for that. I hope all these conversations about the book can be a launch point for healthy conversations about what EDS is and how severe and disabling it can be. And this book might even lead to some more people getting diagnosed, I certainly clocked Violet’s EDS symptoms and I had no idea it was in this book, so maybe it might also resonate with others who have it but don’t know it yet.

[@Kyleigha]

I have friends that love this book, and I told them I hated it. When I pointed out that I HAVE her health issues and that NO ONE I know with those health issues thinks of themselves or the disorders in that way. (I say disorders, because Yarros briefly mentions dizziness in there, which makes me think she wrote the MC as having EDS and POTS, but didn't bother to flush it out more than dizziness.) I have EDS, POTS, and MCAS. This book was infuriatingly bad with how it represented EDS.

[@emmaboxer4659]

I havent read this yet but the hype is mind boggling. Ive seen numerous people getting fourth wing tattoos, and BIG ones too. Like guys please wait to see if you enjoy the rest of the series 😅

[@ninninin656]

Imagine the other 4 books get progressively worse (which I feel they will!) and they'll feel so stupid 😂

[@kbird6208]

noooooooooooooo

[@s.y.k.a1912]

Wait, people are already getting TATTOOS from this book???😭😭🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

[@emmaboxer4659]

@@s.y.k.a1912 oh yeah, saw someone with that "a dragon without its rider" quote down their entire forearm with lightning and dragons

[@RememberMeGirl13]

mabey they can play it of as a "how to train a dragon" reference🤔🙊😂

[@ninninin656]

My prediction for this book series is that it's going to fall apart by the third book at the very latest, and people who got dragons tattoos will feel absolutely stupid for supporting this garbage. I rage read the book and hated it so much, for all the reasons you listed. But my favourite thing you pointed out was: "why don't the dragons just enslave the humans?" because SUCH A GOOD POINT?!? Also, they say the dragons losing a rider doesn't matter to them, but Violet's dragon supposedly was so traumatised from losing his last rider that he didn't want to bond with another one?! So, which one is it? Why does the author constantly contradict her own lore?!? I hate this book.

[@cjn8719]

Third? How generous of you

[@selena44842]

"There was so many words and I don't know what he looks like" had me dying 😂

[@mandyjordan1096]

I feel so validated!!! Especially when you mentioned my pet peeve, that the gauntlet is a structure-by-structure retread of the American Ninja Warrior course. That was the moment I gave up on this book.

[@angellaramie9344]

Now I need a crossover with you and KrimsonRogue 😂

[@ReadswithRachel]

I'm down

[@brianc4632]

The name Sorrengail has me thinking of a My Little Pony character, which makes it difficult to take this book seriously lmao

[@a1yssabrooke]

the moment the mc said she wasn't obsessed with dragons when she was growing up, i knew i would never relate to her

[@eincryptid]

"The dragons don't have four wings so why-I don't get it" Because Hogwarts has four houses and Fourth Wing is a giant mashup of "Who's who of YA Literature over the last two decades!" 😑

[@kylies7228]

When you mentioned it was gonna be a 3 parter my immediate thought was, “wow she’s going Krimson Rouge mode!” And then right after you were like “I’m not Krimson Rouge I’m sorry.” 😂

[@hezekiahrose2743]

I’m so sorry Rachel. I couldn’t finish this video. Not because it’s too long, I love long videos; but because the book itself is such unbearable nonsense that I’m unsure how to describe it. You are an incredible and inspirational person to be able to read this book multiple times, to write notes and film and edit three videos on it. I have no idea how you’re still sane. Am I going to try and watch parts 2 and 3? Absolutely.

[@stephaniekneeland6113]

Fourth Wing: A summary: "I was so scared that i volunteered even though I'm so widdle-- definitely not special, like the other girls. But I'm also super mother fucking smart, because I'm not like other girls. Cha ching."

[@yusahana6323]

I love dragons and want to write a dragon knight/rider novel, so I'm simultaneously upset to hear how bad this is and also thinking "oh thank the gods I certainly can't be much worse than this".

[@krow5099]

That’s me as a writer right now.

[@TheTrueKarin]

Don‘t give up. I am sure your work will be really good.

[@krow5099]

@@TheTrueKarin yeah I hope the OG commenter and me make it too right now I’m doing this kinda Queer LOTRs typa book

[@lorisbooknook]

The book falling at 28:00 was just another rider falling off the parapet. No worries...carry on. 😂

[@ReadswithRachel]

Another NEEDLESS DEATH

[@Mc-DonaldsWifi]

I am listening to the audiobook so far and Fourth Wing is just a magical version of Divergent.

[@lovingnerd]

Thank you!! I was so confused reading this book and I’m glad I was not the only one. The author hand fed us the plot but not the world building which what was needed. As for the weird conversation with her sister I felt she wrote the book as a YA and then had to remind us it is not YA.

[@ReadswithRachel]

The new adult category is so weird

[@emdove]

The amount of times you said “I don’t get it” and “liability” is hilarious (in the best way).

[@ReadswithRachel]

Also “that makes no sense” 😂

[@emdove]

@@ReadswithRachel and "the dragons should just enslave the humans"! 💯

[@vanguardshep]

I don't have Ehlers-Danlos so obviously anyone with that specific disorder, their voices are more important to this discussion than mine, but I am a disabled woman with a lot of chronic joint pain and this kind of disability rep just makes me angry. It feels very "You can do everything able-bodied people do if you just push through the pain!" No, no I cannot. And if I try, I'm going to pay for it with more pain and mobility issues in the days or weeks that follow. It's good to have charcters with disabilities and we need more of them, but authors shouldn't give their protagonists disabilities just to have them ultimately do the same physically demanding things able-bodied protagonists do with a few lines thrown in about how it was harder for her, but that just meant people underestimated her, and she was the best not-like-other-girls in the end because she...decided her disability was only a slight inconvenience that could be overcome with sheer will power or something?

[@stardoogalaxie9314]

Wing Leader is very whimsical in writing but saying it aloud makes it sound like uwuspeak. “I’m the wingleader uwu”

[@kbird6208]

I'm the wingleader! Weally!

[@sava-smth]

Would be so funny tho if book went into comedic direction

[@amazingrainbowfruit]

I'm the wing weader 👉🏾👈🏾

[@pharoahcaraboo9610]

It’s one phrase just directly uplifted from the dragonriders of pern series LOL…. But yes it DOES sound like uwuspeak

[@aud7593]

honestly, this sounds a lot like the author has a passing/superficial knowledge of high fantasy, decided it was inaccessible _as a genre_ , and thought she was the one to fix it

[@kbird6208]

for the win

[@aud7593]

@@kbird6208 the worst thing is, I haven't seen a milennial use FTW unironically in a good long while lmao (and am one myself)

[@Liter8ure]

I truly appreciate the validation you're giving to EDS readers who had a negative view of the representation. So many of us are frustrated and underwhelmed with the impact on Volet's life and choices and the internalized ableism, not to mention the blatant ableism from other characters. So many of the phrases they used I've heard throughout my entire life. It took dying--twice--for people to take me seriously. I had to die to get a diagnosis. And to see such lazy rep writing was heartbreaking. I know for other EDSers, it's different. But death changes the way you see certain things, and the internalized abelism that's never addressed is harmful for readers like me.

[@mxngos7493]

Oh my goodness! I just got diagnosed after years of pain and a year of going from specialist to specialist trying to figure out what was wrong, but I can't even imagine having to literally DIE to be taken seriously. I hope you're doing okay now!

[@Liter8ure]

@@mxngos7493 I'm so happy you were able to get your diagnosis. It takes so long sometimes, and it's awful. Thankfully, I've been on the mend since then. A lot of good days, a lot of bad days, but each one of them a day where I'm alive and have purpose. I'll take it!

[@mxngos7493]

@@Liter8ure That's good to hear! The only thing we can do is continue to live. Small wins are still wins lol!

[@isynielsen2716]

I’m so glad I’m not the only one who thought “this is just four and tris with dragons”

[@raec.9308]

I feel like if Yarros wrote the dragons as if they were wild horses, this would make so much more sense. Like, beautiful beasts who, if you cannot tame it, you leave it be because it will come at you with the fury.

[@sunchips1723]

Laughed my ass off at "She has to crane her neck up like a fucking giraffe".

[@tesscarlson5552]

I get so excited every time a new book involving dragons starts circulating (I'm big time dragon obsessed) but I had a feeling I wouldn't like this book and I'm glad I'm not the only one 🙏 thanks for the extra long video, Rachel!

[@ReadswithRachel]

I'm going to read to shape a dragons breath soon and hopefully i like it better!

[@erinhaury5773]

If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend the Pit Dragon Trilogy by Jane Yolen.

[@Cakelynn6]

Ooo if you have some dragon book recs that are actually good, I would love to hear them!

[@emmyrose233]

Have you read Priory of the Orange Tree? It was kind of a middle-tier book for me, I didn't totally love it, but it could still be worth a look! Even though I had problems with the characters and some of the prose, the dragons are really cool and the author developed very extensive lore for them.

[@tesscarlson5552]

@@Cakelynn6 sadly a lot of dragon books that focus on the dragons heavily are childrens' series, but I recently read When Women Were Dragons which was pretty interesting, even though the feminist aspects focused a lot on white cis women and only occasionally mentioned how others would be affected differently. I've been meaning to read To Shape a Dragon's Breath and Priory of the Orange Tree like have been mentioned in the comments but I haven't read them myself yet. The Book of Dragons is an anthology with some nice stories in it.

[@bib4eto656]

Interesting. The Dragon Age video games have a country called Nevarra, whose large royal and noble families were obsessed with dragons for centuries, ending up hunting them down to near extinction. They're rumored to have been drinking dragon blood, causing them to become dragon-like in appearance. Just thought it's funny how the names were similar, and it's connected to dragons. Coinkydink?

[@alpacarevolution2114]

I literally did a double take because I was wondering the same thing

[@HaruDoneYet]

Glad to see someone else know dragon age lol

[@haggisa]

It’s not even a creative name, considering the kingdom of Navarre was a real place in medieval Europe. Sigh.

[@moodyxepher3729]

I think she also stole the idea of Rider and Dragon communicating in their heads and if rider dies the dragon dies from Eragon.

[@dylpickled]

Oh god, I have hypermobility syndrome and struggling to get an EDS diagnosis. I’m curious to hear ppl with EDS review this book, sounds like a lot to unpack

[@ReadswithRachel]

I left four reviews in the description, two who liked it and two who didn’t. It’s definitely getting a lot of different voices speaking up so I’m listening in since I don’t have EDS

[@P4Stalot]

The goddamn struggle to get an EDS diagnosis. One Dr like "yeah it's an easy test. Any Dr can do it for you. Except for me, bc I'm not an excerpt. 2nd Dr: "Yeah I'm not an expert, so I also won't do the test, but you probably don't have it because it's so rare" 3rd Dr does the test: "You don't have it because you don't have *one criteria* but you're hypermoble ig"

[@starsINSPACE]

I have hEDS. I f you think you have some other kind of EDS rather than hEDS, I would recommend figuring that out, but if you think you have hEDS it might not be worth it depending on you situation. Sometimes rheumatologists will diagnose people with joint hypermobility syndrome but in practice actually you shouldn't be treated differently if you were diagnosed with joint hypermobility syndrome rather than hEDS because the treatment ends up being the same most of the time. It is kind of silly actually; you could be told you don't have hEDS and then have a prolapse issue one day and suddenly your JHS was hEDS all along. I don't know about other countries, but in the US I know of people diagnosed with JHS who say they have hEDS because most doctors never talk to who diagnosed them and it's the only way to get proper management sometimes I've never had anyone call my rheumatologist and ask them about my hEDs and honestly one of my physical therapists seemed to understand EDS management more than my rheumatologist who has EDS herself. 😅

[@NateReadsDiversely]

This is yet another example of, "Just because it's Own Voices doesn't mean it's good rep." (This one was hilarious!! It's in my favorite book review playlist.)

[@anacecilia1387]

23:05 thank god I checked the reviews and found out the focus of this book was the romance, because I'd have been so confused getting to page 100 and not seeing a single dragon yet. Thats the best part!

[@kbird6208]

Why can't the people be uninterested in each other and the dragons have the romance

[@megan3576]

It’s the love child of Divergent and Eragon that nobody asked for

[@kbird6208]

Divergeagon

[@cur1ouscatf1sh]

Now all it needs is a terrible movie and it’ll really be like Divergent and Aragon 😂

[@rafterman1701007]

I feel like so many of these new fantasy stories have a checklist they use. Unique fantasy school? Check. Some weird way to group society? Check. Young girl as the MC? Check. A fantasy world with no depth where people seem like 21st century people? Check. Young soldiers killing each other? Check. Could an AI write the next phenomenon?

[@REDACTEDbox]

you are the one person keeping me updated on booktok… and you’re doing an incredible job👍

[@ReadswithRachel]

just doing my civic duty!

[@trailofdebris]

video: 2+ hrs title: part 1 me: goes to get popcorn in all seriousness, i appreciate your content and detailed gripes and criticism of these messes

[@marahsoore6452]

I'm apart of a lot of reader groups and when they were hyping it up I questioned if it was going to be that good... Glad to hear a critique. As someone who writes this is so disheartening, like I know it should encourage me but it doesn't. It makes me feel like traditional publishing is getting worse. Does this ever mean I'll get published? Probaby not and that sucks. Also as a reader I can't trust most spaces, folks are happy to give 5 stars to generic books. I haven't read a good book in so long, and I am worried I might be too picky. Or maybe this isn't being picky but I am expecting a good story and want to hold other authors to that level.

[@kbird6208]

I used to want to write fiction, SF more than fantasy, but lost interest when I realized how tough it would be to get published (before self-publishing was really legit) and when my career got busy. I probably still couldn't get a book published--yet I can write so much better than this hyper-popular authors. I would still have to come up with a good plot, obviously, but I can at least write. I don't get it.

[@marahsoore6452]

@@kbird6208 I totally understand. I'm trying to get the nerve to self publish but it's a lot of added stressors that I'm not able to manage right now. It sucks. I hope you can come up with something you love and move forward with it. I've written several books, but with all the marketing and how much you have to pay to self publish well, I'm just not in a place financially to do that, even if I do barter stuff for editing and make my own book cover.

[@KAW67]

“The air was ripe with *looks proudly to camera* body odor” that had me 😂

[@aizuni]

I'm gonna be honest, Fourth Wing took me out of my several year long reading slump. It is the first 400+ page book I've read in a small amount of time. But that doesn't mean it's a 5 star book. I completely agree with everything that was said in this video. For me it was a very entertaining book, especially for someone who hadn't read in a while, but even I could tell it wasn't as good as people said it was. Violet made me furious and Xaden made me cringe. I don't get why it has such a high rating tbh.