Dangerous Waters Tutorial 7: Basic TMA and Sonar Trends

[@bcordone]

In the Dangerous Waters "Redbook" they mention you can use your towed array and bow array to rapidly triangulate position and range. They're on two separate parts of the sub, so they listen from two different points. If both detect the contact, you can merge their tracks, and where the two lines intersect is where the contact is. (Similar to how dousing rods are supposed to be used.)

[@FPSchazly]

yes, definitely a viable method. It's prone to large errors for more distant tracks (it could be 20k yards away but the intercept may say 10k or 30k), but for something close it will work well. I tend to drive around with my towed only 1/3 deployed because you don't hear any better at that point and it can be reeled back in more quickly, but for the intercept method, you'd want to reel that towed out as far as possible to minimize the triangulation error.

[@pawagnathom]

Basiclly the same way how the allied nations intercepted german u-boats which generated radio traffic.

[@Talango]

These are some solid tutorials! Before, I was like "WTF am I looking at?" with the TMA, you've actually allowed me to start to understand and make use of the TMA now. Keep up the good work!

[@FPSchazly]

glad to hear it!

[@banryu79]

Thanks fot this series of tutorials, I'm learnig a lot of things! Very high quality stuff you upload here, kudos to youFPSchazly!

[@FPSchazly]

awesome, glad to hear it :D

[@BaneWilliams]

Just want to say thank you for doing these. I got rather interested in Dangerous Waters when a friend of mine showed it off to me and got frustrated trying to nab a kilo on sonar. I spent an hour making course corrections and listening for it and knew this was the kind of game I'd love to know. But getting into it if you don't know much about submarines is very very difficult, and there honestly isn't that much information out there that isn't full of technical jargon with no explanation, unlike your own videos. So keep it up! You're helping me command my sub better :)

[@FPSchazly]

Awesome! I'm happy to hear they've helped!

[@storBoomer]

Just wanted to drop by to express my gratitude for your videos! I recently got the "Complete Naval Combat Pack" on a Steam sale for some 5-10 bucks or so and Dangerous Waters is just a perfect match to my reading of the awesome books by Patrick Robinson. I am much more used to the Silent Hunter series, to this is new terrain for me and I am glad that you're teaching us/me how to master those ships and that sonar stuff - pretty complicated... :D Btw - I read something about the seemingly popular mods "RA" and "LWAMI" (hope that's right). Do you happen to have any Info about what they do and which one to choose? Thanks a lot for your time and effort, keep up the great work! Boomer

[@FPSchazly]

Glad these are helping so much! Be on the look out for Silent Hunter stuff from me in a few weeks ;) Reinforce Alert has a lot of extra platforms and makes everything look nice and shiny. The thing people usually mention the most are the great Akula models and they are good. LWAMI has more of an emphasis on realism. I've tried Reinforce Alert in passing and never LWAMI. After Red Storm Rising is over, I may start to mess around with them.

[@storBoomer]

***** Thanks a lot for your answer! I had just read about these two mods and was a bit unsure because sometimes the forum posts seemed like either one of them was an absolute must have that would improve the game almost like huge community patches. Would love to see them in comparison shown by you - and I'm really looking forward to your Silent Hunter videos. Any plans on which one you'd like to take? SH3, 4, 5? :)

[@FPSchazly]

***** The plan is SH3 but the fact that SH4 is in the Pacific is really appealing to me.

[@ExSSBN2005]

This looks like an upgrade to 688i which we allowed the nubs to use for training back when I was on my sub before they were qualified b/c it was so close to accurate, even the buttons were the same as far as toggling from station to station (as far as the TMA goes the sonar was more cluttered to be more realistic iirc but its been 12 years), I was trying to describe TMA to a co-worker just now and your video was easy enough for him to understand he said never did that on the carrier and I only had to do it for real 2-3 times as the ERS only comes forward to do this for tracking party otherwise its the QMOW who does this and we used a paper chart and light table( this was in 2003ish.) Good vid as well as the other TMA vid that you did.

[@FPSchazly]

thank you kindly! yes, this is the second sequel to 688i, with sub command being the first sequel. i'm glad the video could help. interesting to hear quartermaster does it.

[@ExSSBN2005]

its more unusual that the engine room supervisor comes forward to man this post i thought when i was doing it, thought they were messing with me, and really other than wind the I'm dead beacon what does the QMOW do other than keep own ships position and the position of other contacts around us?

[@FPSchazly]

+ExSSBN2005 ah OK. I wouldn't really know, I've never been on a sub haha just sounded interesting that the quarter master does it

[@Marcomies]

Really good tutorial series! I'm looking forward to the future episodes.

[@FPSchazly]

thanks! expect a new one this sunday :D

[@tomsk]

so basically if you have autocrew, it is easy mode, you dont have to care about contacts, you just take care about firing torpedoes? :) so is it better to have autocrew set off? :)

[@FPSchazly]

if you want to be more like just a sub captain, you can use the autocrew. if you want to actually do stuff in the stations, you can turn the autocrew off.

[@tomsk]

thanks and what is crew's accuracy? (sonar, TMA)

[@FPSchazly]

+tomsk it's accurate! And can deal with a lot more contacts. For TMA, you need to change course a few times while tracking something so the TMA can make a better solution

[@TRR23123]

@@FPSchazly I know this is so old, but in my experience i always have TMA on autocrew because i don't like to be dealing with so many contacts (im not good at TMA) and take so much time in that station, i always prefer to care more about Intercept, Broadband, Narrowband, Demon, High Frequency and stuff like that. I always program my torpedos and need to think about tactics, i always play like this and using TMA manually would make me harder to check sonar contacts.

[@TRR23123]

@@FPSchazly Atleast i have WAA in the modern subs, that is good enough for me. I don't play with old subs too much. Im a Alcar/modded RA user so i prefer going with Suffren, 212, Sauro III/IV, Virg, Seawolf, AKIII or even more modern subs

[@stricklyrubbadub]

Excellent tutorial!

[@FPSchazly]

jesse trevino thank you! Glad you liked it

[@femfreq604]

Is there a way to take of specific trackers manually? When having more contacts it happens that often the new contact takes a tracker from another contact away I didn´t wanted to happen.

[@FPSchazly]

You can click it off in sonar by clicking on the tracker letter, may need to be a double click

[@pulz123]

why exactly is the curve convex when its coming closer and otherwise opposite? because the closer the target is the faster a position change is? And what is the main use for tma? To avoid peeking out (finding out course of a sub?) If you would engage a freighter or such you could do a "normal" solution with course, speed, AOB and range?

[@FPSchazly]

+Marcel Schulz yes, the closer something is, given a constant speed, the faster its position will appear to change. the main use for TMA is to determine the solution of unknown contacts, surface or subsurface, friend or foe, without risking giving away your position through periscope usage or active means of detection (pings or radar). you can do that with a freighter, yes, however the process is very simple using TMA, assuming they're moving at a constant course and speed.

[@pulz123]

+FPSchazly is it possible to do the passive range with the i688 ? without stadimeter

[@FPSchazly]

it is. you're going to need the other two variables, though: course and bearing. and it will only work if the contact is at a constant course and speed, too. you go for several minutes on one bearing to get a few lines of bearing, then you turn about 90 degrees or so and go for a few more minutes. typically, though, the knowns are speed and bearing so we usually use this method to solve for course and range.

[@FPSchazly]

+Marcel Schulz the manual has a write up on it starting on page 96 / 558. a lot of this tutorial is based off of that but it always helps to see a second source.

[@pulz123]

Especially it helps me with seeing it in action. Thank you for all your great help!

[@hasrulmuhammad8271]

Kalzu bleh ankat macam daun terup kan bes. '.'. '_faz

[@TheTISEOMan]

So To dictate range of a target. I have to try and line up the ruler where the lines intercept? I have trouble judging range with TMA. I usually get the bearing correctly. But I end up having the target closer or farther away than I thought.

[@FPSchazly]

the bearing is the one thing you always know. with TMA, you're trying to find the one solution where all the dots line up (assuming the contact has not changed course or speed since you started tracking it). where the lines intersect is where the contact would be if its speed was 0 kt. if you and the contact are heading in the same direction, where the lines intersect is the maximum range of the contact. if you and the contact are heading in the opposite direction, where the lines intersect is the minimum range of the contact.

[@FPSchazly]

if you and the contact never change course and speed, you can have a limitless number of solutions. to narrow down the number of solutions, you have to change the course and/or speed of your own ship. the more times you do this, the more likely you are to find the correct solution.

[@TheTISEOMan]

So in actuality, I'd need to constantly change my speed for the next few updates in the TMA so I can accurately guess the range? If so, what's the intersect in the TMA that you get sometimes?

[@FPSchazly]

I suppose you could constantly change it, but I think it would be more advantageous to run at a certain speed/course for a few minutes and then change speed/course. Also, although speed is a valid way to change bearing rate with respect to a target, course changes are generally more tactically prudent, as speed changes can mean you're making more noise

[@TheTISEOMan]

Ah. I thought making maneuvers caused more noise, therefore I thought that trying to determine range is a big gamble.

[@juk-hw5lv]

FPSChazly, Are you a real submariner? Did you served in the Navy on submarines?

[@FPSchazly]

no i am not and no i never did! :) i've enjoyed submarines and learning about them for over 15 years and i also hold a college degree in engineering, which definitely helps with the somewhat mathematical nature of submarine combat

[@davidelcajon8619]

So interesting to see this interpretation of TMA. Not actually what is taught in Navy schools at all. Maybe STGs think like this 🙉? I was worried before viewing that I had stumbled upon a security breech!

[@juliusraben3526]

Dont know if you ever read this. But in this day and age gaming is kinda dead (i've even got my GameCube from my parents home for nostalgic value). Cold Waters gameplay (and then the comments under it) led me to Dangerous Waters. Im seriously considering buying it since it appears to be a HARD game (so i wont be bored as quick) and its old so my laptop can run it. Yes, im a untermensch race with my PS4, but at least some eugenetics kick in since ill play it on my laptop haha. For people who are triggered, im trying to make a joke in context of the PC masterrace meme.

[@FPSchazly]

It's definitely an involved game! The auto crew let's you get as detailed as you want. Nothing wrong with a ps4! I have one and a switch too. fuck all those pc master race types lol

[@Goboens]

nice !

[@FPSchazly]

Gobo Nazgul Thanks!

[@moto.negro-ren]

why does the baffled region on 0 if ur on the north center ?

[@FPSchazly]

Where the baffled region is depends on your course. For the spherical/cylindrical array, the baffles are 180 degrees opposite your course. The sonar doesn't need to listen to your own ship, basically

[@rednex1989]

why do we know its 10 speed?

[@FPSchazly]

it was a given for this video. i wanted to explore more about fitting the ruler to a solution. finding speed without using DEMON is more complicated. at first, you'll just give an educated guess for speed. later, you can use course changes along with other techniques to figure out a more accurate speed. but demon is the best way to find speed.

[@RandomFandomOfficial]

This looks like a pretty complex detailed sim. 😅

[@FPSchazly]

there is a steep learning curve indeed!

[@RandomFandomOfficial]

@@FPSchazly True. I wasn't able to figure out how to move the ruler around and assign a target to weapons. It's a pretty cool game though.

[@FPSchazly]

you may have autocrew turned on for TMA and fire control there, respectively. you won't be able to mess with things with autocrew on. try and turn it off. the toggle is either in the top left or top right corner of the game screen (can't remember which), or you can also find it in the options menu

[@youhavenoprivacyandownnoth8289]

That orange dot graph is cheating. You can clearly tell where the contact is by looking at the intersection lines.

[@FPSchazly]

the contact is only at the intersection point if its speed is zero

[@youhavenoprivacyandownnoth8289]

FPSchazly ok so how exactly does that graph work? What do the dots and middle, side sections mean?

[@youhavenoprivacyandownnoth8289]

FPSchazly nvm i figured it out