Fr. Nikon - Suffering is not a good thing for the Orthodox

[@matthewbeaver7809]

Yes! This is why I became Orthodox after atheism. There simply is no fuller joy than knowing you have found the true faith worshipping the undivided Trinity.

[@AleksandarAleksiev_]

Glory to God!

[@meropivannooten5240]

It gladdens my heart to read your comment

[@paulwilliams9207]

This is like being let out of the prison of the western mindset, like walking out of the darkness into light, like having the lights switched on at last! God bless, and thank you. Love orthodoxy

[@lilyawood]

Weeping may last through the night but joy comes in the morning

[@brianjohnston3446]

"Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me. That is why, for the sake of Christ, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.…" 2 Corinthians 12:8-10

[@ClanLcps]

Brian Johnston I think now we see the difference between the east and west; in that the west was using philosophy for intellectual understanding of doctrine while the eastern monks hesychasm which relied on a personal experience...

[@meusisto]

Both the Cross and the Ressurrection are realities. It seems as the West emphasises the suffering and the East the light. Both are forgeting the other part, to some point.

[@joshua_finch]

Does he delight in only those? No. And weakness need not be suffering.

[@tessalogan586]

Amen, we must share in Christ's suffering.

[@Razamaniac]

@@meusisto thats wrong, its just that Orthodoxy knows whats the goal of the faithful, the union with Christ Himself and Christ is the Light and the Ressurection and the Life. So other thing is saying tht pain is a good thing and other is to endure pain when it happens without being affected with sadness and despair.

[@severianmonk7394]

I think Father is not asserting that suffering has no remedial or instructive value but that it is futile to fixate on it, to seize it like a treasure in itself or the ultimate term of Christian experience and to remain there. A better view perhaps is to remain at peace in whatever condition we find ourselves and let it pass by without surrendering to agitation as it shows us what we can learn from it along the way. There are plenty of emotional and spiritual masochists who cling to suffering as an end in itself, a form of satisfaction. I have met people who are simply terrified of enjoying anything which looks like evidence of ingratitude. A kind of spiritual anorexia if you like.

[@otelders]

Thank you!

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

severian monk - Absolutely right.

[@buster2188]

Dear Father thank you so much, may God Bless you and Greece. May Greece. and the greek people always remain Orthodox, for that is the true foundation of Greece.

[@Beyondabsence]

We catholics are perfectly aligned with this view. God bless my Orthodox brothers and sisters.

[@iliya3110]

You know I would have probably responded the same when I was RC but in reality the RC saints glorify suffering, especially before Vatican II. They're obsessed with Jesus' Passion and hold up victim souls of God's divine justice as the heights of sanctity. In traditional Catholicism the Passion got infinitely more attention than the Resurrection. Something that was difficult for me to see when I was in that ethos. But as an Orthodox Christian looking back on all that the difference is striking. God bless friend

[@ammarsayegh]

Father Nikon, a good man. I met him once in Vienna. What an honour to hear his wisdom again.

[@TheMorning_Son]

I really think God is showing me this is one of the root causes to my spiritual illnesses..I must have obtained this way of thinking obsessing over suffering ..not all suffering is good....inner suffering if it produces the contradiction to the fruits of the spirit then it is bad

[@anthony1998]

Thank you for that comment. I have been going through the same thing.

[@diaconescuelena5444]

Thank you God for your lovely care!🙏🙏🙏

[@annemcquade7185]

I am a Catholic and a woman. I love the univetsal Catholic Church. Reflecting over your comments, even as a "woman", I cannot recall anyone ever saying that suffering was good or beautiful! Further, there is no point in cutting out or dismissing Christ's "death " and merely focusing on His "Passion" and Resurrection!" Who was it that said:"Death where is thy victory? Death were is thy sting? Anyway, God Bless you and all eternally- love your subtitled texts! Thank you!

[@otelders]

God bless!

[@annemcquade7185]

@@otelders Thank you so much! Please Pray that God grants us all the Grace to be Holy! Amen.

[@severianmonk7394]

You are quoting St Paul. I think a basic difference between the eastern and western teachings is that Orthodox see the cross and tomb as a continuum, as two aspects of a single event. This is true in the west as well, but it is far less prominent. Moreover, if you read The Story of a Soul by Therese of Lisieux and, even more, the autobiography of Alacoque there are some doubtful passages which come across as quite morbid. Some Trappist writing since the 17 century is rather lurid and melodramatic as well. It's definitely there and it can even be found among the Poor Clares much earlier. Many Orthodox have felt that Therese approached a western form of pure Biblical spirituality that brought her close to an Orthodox view. No one could doubt her strength of mind or the sincerity of her devotion but she was also subject to the influence of post-revolutionary Action Catholique with its strong emphasis on the highly significant word 'mortification' and martyrdom. What you could no longer expect your enemies to do for you in the climate of late 19th c France you could easily provide for yourself. Also there is her age to take into account; adolescent enthusiasms can take strange forms.

[@sandachera9471]

Felicitări

[@junesilvermanb2979]

If there be a true way that leads to the Everlasting Kingdom, it is most certainly that of suffering, patiently endured... - Saint Colette of Corbie (1381-1447)

[@timib1166]

Thank you so much for translation. There is one video only in Greek language of F. Nikon about prayer. It would be so good to have it also in English if possible.

[@martinas8063]

Emphasis is put on the love for Jesus. So this is what remains.

[@nonofyobusinessboi]

There is a major mistake in the translation here. Father doesn't talk about suffering, he talks about pain which in many ways, especially for us Orthodox, isn't the same depending on the context.

[@joshuajonah3061]

Orthodox Christian theology is right, suffering and tribulation are not God's work towards humans, instead they're from our disobedience to God and devil's manipulation on us.

[@Kk-mh4mm]

Shalom, there will be a remnant of the nations. Correct your ways and be ye prepared redemption comes

[@nickvoutsas5144]

Although Chris's grace is made perfect when we suffer it is not the objective of God. Salvation would be useless unless the resurrection never happened. ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS KNOW THAT THE TRUE MEANING OF SALVATION WHICH IS JOY IN LIVING LIFE. Salvation is life .

[@leewayne6330]

It was one of the fathers, maybe Seraphim Rose (not canonized yet, but very wise), or a saint that said we should offer up our suffering for others and the departed, as they need our prayers, and our sufferings do good for them. This seems Roman Catholic, because this idea does exist there. I think, with all respect, this is too simplified. Is the problem that in the West there is an idea of WANTING to suffer, rather than offer up whatever suffering we have to have...there is an idea in Catholicism of "offering it up", but maybe it is the praying for suffering some in the West seem to preach? This is one bishop, and though we must respect him, I would consider looking at what the saints have said, because bishops can err, both in small matters like this (non-heresy) or great (heresy). I don't know what he means exactly.

[@sevenseconds8652]

. Catholics say that if you suffer on hearth you will stay a much lesser time in purgatory, and that if you suffer with love you can even avoid going to hell.

[@josephr.gainey2079]

Is the whole of this lecture available on KZbin or elsewhere with English translation? If this is a sample of what Fr. Nikon said, there is much, much wisdom and truth in this talk!!!!!!!!!

[@otelders]

It is only an excerpt... unfortunately, we are not aware of any other parts available in English...

[@josephr.gainey2079]

Thank you for ypur prompt response. Hopefully someone will post the rest of this lecture soon!

[@otelders]

Looks like it is already published here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnekdn2VatVje6M

[@josephr.gainey2079]

Thank you most kindly! GOD BLESS!!!!

[@irene1234]

Hitting "CC" on the YT player will give you an English translation.

[@aronbacalu8819]

Sa i întrebe cineva dacă cei care au ucis creștini,nu au produs suferință mai mare? Doamne ajuta.

[@jasonsanders8091]

Can't agree with this. Too simple. St Paisius said you can't get to spiritual spring without going through spiritual winter. St Theophan said to make real spiritual progress you must be in travail, like a woman in childbirth; that you can work hard, but if you don't suffer you will not make real spiritual progress. But I agree that the joy of the Resurrection is emphasised more in Orthodoxy.

[@irene1234]

This video was comforting but what about the countless aesthetics who say suffering is the only way to salvation. That suffering is required and good for salvation. There seems to be contradiction I can't seem to understand.

[@ninasaabiyeh926]

Irene D : Suffering is necessary for us because it makes us realize how poor and weak we are without grace of God, and then we run back to our Father... This is not against joy.. Joy is when you have deep faith that even when you are suffering, grace of God is keeping you and God allows it for your salvation

[@irene1234]

Funny you should post this today as what you wrote is something I actually started to realize yesterday and am trying to apply to my life. Confirmation from The Lord maybe? Thank you!

[@ninasaabiyeh926]

Irene D you are welcome :)

[@AusTx5]

This was a bit confusing. Didn't he contradict himself? St Paul said, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church." So does it really matter to us what the "new agers" etc say about suffering?

[@AusTx5]

@Eru Clusivus So he contradicted himself.

[@meusisto]

Suffering is an indication of another Kingdom which we look to. If being Christian meant being “happy” in this life, we wouldn’t need the Kingdom of Heaven. -Fr. Seraphim Rose I really can't see any suffering for the sake of suffering in the West. Catholics teach that it's necessary to suffer in order to be able to love. It looks like fr. Nikon is talking about his view of an imaginary "enemy".

[@kaykay3585]

Bible says that Christ learned obedience by the things he suffered. and if we suffer with Him we will reign with Him....

[@katherine3486]

Tea K. Hello. the original Greek translation has it more like "carried" or "experienced"

[@katherine3486]

Tea K. Hello. the original Greek translation has it more like "carried" or "experienced"

[@meusisto]

Indeed, Katherine. However the Cross He carried and the mockering, hunger and thirst, and pain He experienced were not easy or good, were they?

[@sevastos2168]

@@meusisto Praise kek

[@meusisto]

@Potatoes It's all a matter of how you suffer.

[@vasilymartin4051]

This needs to be explained better. What is meant by joy?

[@JudithMatta]

Rejoicing in this holy Elder who succinctly explains our Holy Faith contrasted with heretical gnostic ideas of suffering as "payment" to an "angry god" of Augustine of Hippo. See Dr. Romanides on "Augustine" at www.romanity.org and our videos on youtube exposing this pagan idea of Augustine of Hippo adopted by Charlemagne's church of the Frankish empire.

[@meusisto]

Just out of "coincidence" I just read a comment from this same user "Judith" elsewhere about the protestant pastors "soft words", so I came back here to paste it: "Problem: Protestant pastors take a salary -and therefore, are dependent on having adequate numbers to sustain them and their families. That's the reason for "New" and having a message that does not "offend" anyone in the parish... i.e. the Cross and dying to self to follow Christ. No message no Gospel but a salary."

[@angelandres08]

Judith Irene Matta In which of the works of Augustine are those terms? Thank you

[@meusisto]

Christ said one should take his cross before Him, if he wanted to follow him. I used to hear Orthodox people speaking about the words of Christ: "blessed are the ones mourn"... I just think that, unfortunatelly, many Orthodox like to see themselves as opposed to the western Church, while there are no real contradictions, but actually different emphasis.

[@TheRealRealOK]

That's ok! That’s not true. As an ex-Protestant, I know that the West is often in contradiction to our Orthodox beliefs.

[@milkamustakylytar5204]

@@TheRealRealOK & That's OK! : confrontation between western and eastern churches is in itself wrongdoing. - But this teaching-speech of beLoved elder Nikon, this is only : for the adjustment. to everyone of us, godservants & godservantesses. E f c h a r i s t o , e l d e r N i k o n .

[@meusisto]

@@TheRealRealOK I'm also a former protestant, mate. Just read your comment now, 3 years after you sent me. I meant there are no contradictions with regard to suffering, not other points of doctrine.

[@TheRealRealOK]

@@meusisto3 years later, that’s wild man. What did you convert to? God bless you, bro.

[@ad_astra_624]

ive never seen an orthodox monk or priest in my life other than through the internet. unfortunately.

[@phunnyfilosophy]

Then what's the point of "We preach Christ Crucified". In fact, why emphasize the Life of Christ (Protestantism) the Death of Christ (Catholicism) OR the Resurrection of Christ (Orthodoxy). Why must there be any emphasis? Shouldn't all three exist together? Like the Trinity?

[@prater6513]

I would say Protestantism emphasizes the crucifixion, not the life of Christ. The person in the video is one person, although his thoughts are shared by many. But Orthodoxy actually preaches Christ's whole life. Salvation begins the moment of conception (we sing on March 25th, "Today is the beginning of our salvation"), through the birth, baptism, teachings, healings, crucifixion, death, resurrection, and ascension. Christ is our salvation. Christ is our life. Salvation comes from His life, death, and resurrection. We preach Christ crucified and sing Christ crucified in our Liturgy throughout the entire year. We also sing Christ resurrected, because the crucifixion cannot be divorced from the resurrection and vice versa.

[@فيصلالسرحان-ب6ف]

البحث بالمظي مثل الذي يفتح الجرح بدونشرح مكشوف الالجرثيم والوبه تعذبونه ونتم تشبحونه هوحي يكلويشرب من ارزق ارب وحدحد ⚖️💛💚💙🕊️💎💍🔦🤚

[@henenyigezu6760]

i didn't get you my dear father am an orthdox and i thought God always want us to suffer and so on... idk

[@otelders]

It would be good to discuss this concern with your spiritual father... 🙏

[@henenyigezu6760]

@@otelders i said like that because suffering purifies our heart, it removes our sloth and make us pray continuously, it removes the feeling of pride, it makes us humble and feel that we are too weak and need the help of God.. Anyway i will ask my spiritual father and thank you for replying!!

[@nykatradingtindera6710]

Contradicting statements. Doesn't agree w/ Western Christianity seeing suffering as a good thing and Mother Teresa saying that "Pain and suffering have come into your life, but remember pain, sorrow, suffering are but the kiss of Jesus", but later says Christian rejoices in his suffering and sorrow. And if the problem is w/ the non-singing during Lent, look at the prayers. Bet you'd find that western christians are also in hopeful and joyful anticipation of His Resurrection.

[@otelders]

Thank you for sharing!

[@bluedonkeyman]

As much as I love Fr Nikon, I disagree with him a bit on this. According to Paisios, some pain is good and keeps you thinking of God. When Paisios was all well he took an axe and hit his leg with it so that the constant pain would keep his mind focused on God constantly. Pain goes hand in hand with humility.

[@thenarrowdoor7]

Jesus thrones mean that all our suffering comes from our own minds , and when we surrender on the cross , our ego dies , our desires to this material world die, and our soul rise .... jesus came not on a horse but a donkey , why ? Because in hebrew donkey means khamor חמור from the word khomer חומר wich means material and jesus is over this material world

[@dutchmountainsnake5379]

wut

[@AusTx5]

I agree...

[@wien1563]

I don't quite understand this Father. For example he says, suffering is not a good thing. Ok then what about The Lord's Words in the Gospel where he says something like: ,,It is good for you to reach the heavenly Kingom by many misfortunes and sufferings" (something like that He said, i am paraphrasing now, but you get the point, please correct me if i am wrong). And also what about the Holy Martyrs? Their Wounds will shine brighter then stars at the second coming. What about the Martyrs and the Great-Martyrs who suffered for their whole Nation and their Generations to come like Saint Lazar of Serbia? What about the Sufferings of the Ascetic Monks in the Deserts like St. Onuphrius the Great? They did it all for The Love of Christ, they went through fire, and sword, and now i have the feeling after watching this, that suffering is bad. I am glad though that this Father said towards the End of the video that we suffer, for the sake of living with the righteous at the End, or better said, at the Beginning of the Kingdom of God, to where hopefully we will get by the mercy of the Almighty Lord Here are some Words i found on suffering from Fr. Joseph of Vatopedi: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWKvemOjebKNiM0

[@otelders]

He might just want to stress the fact that in the Orthodox tradition we don't think that it's a great thing that we suffer... we don't search for it. But if God allows it, then glory be to God. It is dangerous for one to think about himself that he suffered for God or he is a martyr...

[@wien1563]

@@otelders ,,..the fact that in orthodox tradition we don't think that it's a great thing that we suffer.." where is this fact. Tell me one sentence of a holy Father of our church who said that, tell me where is the word of such a thing in the bible? ,,he who wants to go with me, shall take up his cross and abandon of himself, and go after me" What is the Cross then? Is it sweet candy to chew on?

[@otelders]

@@wien1563 "For Orthodox Christianity, suffering has no intrinsic value and is in fact disvalued. Suffering can gain positive value only insofar as it aids in leading to salvation through breaking a person’s pride and serving as an occasion for repentance. As a result, because medicine is a gift of God and because pain and suffering can serve as temptations to sin (e.g., to use physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia), the use of medicine is affirmed as long as a particular intervention is not a stumbling block to a person’s spiritual life by being either a spiritual distraction or involving absolutely prohibited practices such as euthanasia and abortion. The Orthodox Christian account is homiletic rather than scholastic in tone. Because suffering does not discharge any temporal punishment due to sin, it does not play a role in an economy of salvation (e.g., delivering souls from punishment in purgatory), as has been the case for Roman Catholicism. " H. Tristram Engelhardt Jr., The Orthodox Christian View of Suffering

[@wien1563]

@@otelders never heard of this guy tbh.., have you read the Vita of St. Pahomius the Great? Do you recall what towards the end of his Vita was shown? Christ came down to him and told him that in the last days, people will be saved by sufferings and tribulations, and by enduring them, they will show themselves greater then the fathers of previous times! In a Serbian Song from Saint Vladyka Nikolay Velimirovic, who is a Great Saint in Orthodox Church, the song goes: ,,Tell me Mother, is it given so by God? That this life offers us more dorns than roses? Mother: Don't be afraid my dear, the more dorns the more beautiful the roses, this science gives me strength" Where is this fact, of a holy father or in a Gospel, you did not show me that, whereas there are many accounts on suffering in the bible and from Holy fathers where it shows, how suffering shall not be looked bad unto, to the contrary. How many more examples do you want?