How Wide Should Your Pedals Be? Stance Width & Q-Factor Explained - BikeFitTuesdays

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[@TheJeffcote]

I like James. James makes sense. That was really interesting 👍

[@DominikLoeffler1]

Would love to see him address 1. pedal extenders 2. heel crank rub when toes want to point outward 3. different BB/crank systems affecting width (like would you consider changing BB/crank for width issues?!)

[@shauncook7706]

would love James view on adjustments for people who have narrow or normal width hips but point their toes out and rub the cranks/frame with their heels.

[@milossubotic8582]

Thanks to both James and Francis for Bike Fit Tuesday series. There is no single bike fitter in my country (Serbia) and I am planning to visit one next time I travel somewhere where I can find one. I have experienced pain in the outside part of my feet that is slowly building up to a certain threshold, exactly as James described. I never thought about it previously. After this video, I measured the q-factor on both my MTB (never had this issue) and my CX/Gravel bike, and I have realized that the difference is 30 mm!!!! Since I have a crank-based power meter and that I use the same shoes for both bikes, I think the easiest solution would be to get pedals with longer spindles. I have set my eyes on Issi Flash pedals since they have +6mm and +12 mm options. Since I am 192 cm and the difference between my MTB and my CX/Gravel bike is 30mm, I think it is safe to go with + 12 mm.

[@stefanosabbioni5821]

Bike fit Tuesdays are the only fit videos that gives you the tools to work around your bike fit instead of giving you someone else’s solution.

[@duncanwatson7858]

Thanks guys! been getting pins and needles in my feet on rides for ages. Watched this and some of it sounded like me so I moved my cleats and bosh no more pins and needles on this mornings ride!

[@KOMHuntTV]

Couple of years back I had get some longer axle pedals due to a clearance issue with some winter boots. (I know, probably not the best thing to do without a proper bike fit) but it felt great and haven’t looked back 👌👍

[@richardbelisle3957]

I purchased some lake cx 301 46.5 extra wide and increased my stance with the shimano spd sle pedals + pushing the cleats all the way to the side after seeing this video like a year ago and the difference is amazing. Thank you for the videos!

[@rattila13]

I got a pedal based power meter to get the increased stance, the Vector and Assioma pedals also have longer threads on the axle so you can safely add 2 washers per side. They're actually missing an opportunity by downplaying the wider stance.

[@doint]

I few years ago I switched to adjustable Look CX6 pedals and it made a big difference for me.

[@mirekmontepuro5330]

This is quickly becoming my favourite yt cycling channel.

[@dtdprime9530]

Increased my stance and it worked wonders, wish i did this 7 years ago... no more saddle sores, stable an the sadle en even my shoulder issues are gone. I'm 1m93, i can advise this to all taller riders out there

[@benclinch2472]

Love this channel. You guys rock. In this you were channeling the spirit of Roy Kent.

[@vioseven3799]

Thank you guys for your wealth of knowledge. Actually, watching your bike fit Tuesdays I went and bought some Lake shoes...well, so far they have been amazing, quality and comfort.

[@chazpilks]

Who knew sitting on a bike was so complex 😁🚲

[@TheMerckxProject]

Have been using a third-party axle entendre on the R side for years. My R femur is longer, and that foot also duckfoots outward to the point that my heel was taking paint off the chain stay. Adding Q definitely helps.

[@motluv]

I just came to see how intense/angry James was going to be today. I also came fooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooor the pauses. 🤣

[@cygnusxl5]

😂😂😂

[@duncanmartin2626]

Q for James Many of these videos have a "if you have tight hips" element mentioned somewhere in them. If you had someone who was relatively happy with their fit but had developed tight hips, do you re-do the whole thing? If not, where do you adjust first? Riding exacerbates an existing hip issue for me (to the extent I've basically stopped until it's resolved/stable).

[@andrewashton5685]

I had a bike fit with James a couple of weeks ago and my stance was increased by quite a lot,big difference in comfort and power👍👍

[@aljaliah6868]

Define “quite a lot please”

[@andrewashton5685]

Off the top of my head it was 6mm per side

[@aljaliah6868]

Andrew Ashton 6mm spacer/spacers ?

[@andrewashton5685]

Longer shaft pedals which were 4mm extra than the old ones,then a 2mm/1.5mm washer.

[@JPWack]

Plenty good information as always! I ride platforms with straps (for convenience reasons, don't judge me) and switching to wider platforms with slightly longer axle (and thus increasing stance) has been a game changer, less pain, more comfort and even better average speed.

[@wrwicky]

Thank you for a great video. The fit videos with James taught me about Valgus joints and helped me refine my atypical fit

[@eddnshoulders]

The official Speedplay axles might not be available. However, eBay has a selection of good quality options from China from -3mm to +15mm in 3mm increments. This also makes things easier/cheaper if you need a different length each side.

[@rafaz28]

Wider stance was one of the biggest comfort improvements for me. But only adding 1.5mm to each side with washers was almost imperceptible. I ended up with quite a lot more than that. Im not huge, but Im on the wider side and have poor flexibility.

[@triciamcintyre4947]

Always learning something new.James is the yellow pages of anything bike related.👍🚴💯

[@31.8mm]

i ride with old 3x crank with square taper bb, i measured both pedal to frame and it differ about 5mm, so i set my cleat differently for each side.

[@Cade_Media]

good idea measuring, I didn't realise parts would be asymmetrical like that

[@standardh_]

How timely! Been having some lateral pain on my left foot only, and coincidentally picking up my new shoes today. (Size was off - shocker) These videos have absolutely helped me in my recent bike purchase & subsequent shoe purchase, as well. Last tweak of my stance comes later today - Cheers, Francis & James!

[@somebody655]

Great product- worked perfectly, no issues.

[@plantpoweredhealth9383]

I ended up with +4 Ultegra pedals, 3 mm spacers per side for 7 mm total as well as wedges. Totally different riding now and a huge improvement once your body gets used to it. You can get a 10 mm adapter too for the pedals if needed, basically a threaded adapter that goes between pedal and crank. There's a Kiwi company that has wider pedals but different cleat design altogether. Also Speedplay no longer are making wider pedal system at the moment unfortunately.

[@ronitdebnath]

Where can we get 10mm adapters from. Let me know.

[@YuriThorpe]

What happens if stance is too narrow 2:20 Signs if your stance is too narrow: -Foot pain from driving to the outside of shoe -Pain on the inside of the knee -Saddle issues -High hand pressure What happens if stance is too wide 3:47 Signs if your stance is too wide: -IT band issues -Pain outside of knee I have come back to this video like 8 times, I destroyed my MTB shoes and have been trying to recreate my road cleat position on the new MTB shoes.

[@rob_cd]

Thank you very helpful

[@mykweb]

Good Video, how does James feel about the Assioma Duo-Shi and the increased Q factor for the average rider?

[@kacy750]

i have something to say, but since there is so much noise in the shop, i have to say it loudly: THANKS FOR BIKE FIT TUESDAY'S GUYS....IT F%VKIN' GREAT!!!! hope you could hear that.

[@eo1830]

I’ve noticed that I sometimes flick my back heal at the bottom of the stroke. A trait that I’ve also observed in other while out on group rides. Maybe something James could discuss. I.e. what’s the driving force behind the action; is it a problem, if so why; etc. Keep up the videos Francis.

[@brianlathan2465]

I definitely need a wider stance , I am going to book a bikefit with James for early new year , hopefully where I live will be out of tier 3 by then , I have hellish issues with my heal rubbing the cranks , would try the washers but seen so many mixed reviews on these I've avoided trying this method .

[@bicyclerichmond]

currently booking for April - hurry hurry!

[@brianlathan2465]

Booked 👍 good Friday 2021 , see you then

[@samjames4299]

As a builder I completely agree with everything that's going on in the background 😂💪

[@ruffrydazz2032]

This is interesting. I'm a physio by trade and primarily work with field sports athletes in my day job. I deal with foot placement/width for things like vertical leap, deadlift, etc. For my clients, I'm primarily looking to maximize application of force which means we want to get the leg posture as vertical as possible and if we have foot problems like pronation, we would use a shim or footbed to correct while keeping our optimal posture. My question is, at what point is it better to widen stance/Q-factor rather than just using a shim? Is there an efficiency loss from going wider in the name of comfort? Cycling is a bit different, more torque based and it's not my specialty so I don't know. Anyway, cool channel, thanks!

[@JIMWSMITH]

So much info on bike fit Friday! I really need to get booked in , it will be well worth the trip from Nottingham..

[@davidmidcalf3470]

I was gutted when I found out they're in London, I remember them saying they're in Richmond and since I'm in the North East I thought awesome only 30 minutes drive away, then I found out there's a Richmond in London 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️

[@JIMWSMITH]

@@davidmidcalf3470 🤣

[@mincehogan9508]

@@davidmidcalf3470 i am even considering flying in from Hamburg to do it.................

[@Cade_Media]

Do it Jonny!

[@aljaliah6868]

Mince Hogan WOW. Da staune Ich sehr. Sicher gibt es so was in Deutschland auch überall.

[@kelvintan4754]

Question...how should we reference our stance/Q factor? Eg. Hip width? Narrowest squat stance?

[@Jhaycee212]

Francis your videos are getting me through irelands horrible weather. Thank you :)

[@ciulabula1]

Me too

[@taufikabidin412]

Whats important is the compromise between The aero and power. Smaller is more aero in rexumbent position, also as you can fit into a narrower fairing shell, it becomes more aero. But you still need to get power out. But I heard si ewehere that there are people who cut or bend their toes so they can have a smaller frontal area

[@abedfo88]

increasing my q-factor was the biggest positive change i ever made to my fit.

[@TheBigadam1980]

I have been getting foot cramp and after this I moved my cleats out and its been a sensation. Cheers boys.

[@SuperNeilB]

I have 130mm sit bone width. There was lightbulb moment when I realised my knee pain was probably because of the q factor on my bike. Confirmed by being comfortable on my MTB with flat pedals where my foot was sitting on the outside half of the pedal. I needed 10mm each side to stop the knee pain on my gravel bike!

[@thepdails]

How did you go about adding the 10mm?

[@yourfriendlyneighbor-x3x]

Great video, so how many millimeters worth of washers can be used to increase width? 1.5mm? 2mm?

[@jybuys]

2 mm max ( I've read ).

[@benbjw1]

Hi there. I suffer from IT band pain on the outside of my right knee (for a couple of years). The pain can be excruciating at times and kept me off the bike for almost 12 months. I was advised that I should widen the stance to assist with this and to also point the toes out using cleat adjustment. I have done this through the use of 25mm pedal extenders (which seem extreme!). I think the extenders have helped but I cant be sure as I also do a lot of stretches now pre-ride (I do still get moderate IT band pain especially on ride over 30 miles). Keen to hear your thoughts on the use of such long extenders. I also note the video suggests IT pain is often a result of a stance width which is too wide... Really enjoying this series, keep them coming!

[@pranavtriguna6556]

I'm a larger rider and have been feeling the need to get a bike with wider stance, I feel my knees and hips have to contract to make my feet set on the pedals. My legs are naturally wider :(

[@tmshokie]

Would inner adductor fatigue (long distances 100k +) be a possible sign of a too narrow Q factor? My bike fitter suggested I experiment with some spacers to see. I’m not large but might list towards knees out, esp when I get fatigued. Great video by the way. Very helpful.

[@danielmaguire1162]

Quick question: If you adjust stance on one cleat/pedal should this then be mirrored on the other cleat/pedal? I have right knee pain and slight bow legs so was thinking of experimenting with my cleats (spd's)

[@seancurran717]

Also very interested in the answer to this question

[@CyclingExplorers]

Follow

[@shaley111]

Would love to see a bike fit Tuesday in relation to mountain bikes. I believe there are some considerable differences in geometry and how people want to set up their bikes compared to road bikes.

[@Cade_Media]

Funny you say that, I have a new MTB right here waiting to be built up and then I need a fit!

[@derekhobbs1102]

Has there been MTB fit video yet?

[@ozzz3365]

2 years im.struggling with right leg knee pain. And always had the feeling that the leg is just bend into the center of the bike- That i have to open up the stance! Im.goona buy these ultegera extra 4 mm pedals. Im.just so angry that my bike fiter didnt even check the stance distance!

[@BenitoAndito]

I notice that my bike is tilted to the left when I ride. What could be causing this? Leg length discrepancy?? And I've already lowered my saddle and reduced my reach both by over 30 mm, so I doubt it's the usual 'bee in bonnet' culprits.

[@Wasatchwatts]

Bumping this. Had this forever, I’ve played with everything. I have the sensation my leg hip/leg is extended slight further over the bb and when I look down I see more of the right side of my frame so also tilts left.

[@vinniep01]

I have a question regarding pedal based power metres. Do the increased stance mean that you need to buy a pair to avoid an asymmetrical fit? Could a single sided power metre cause issues?

[@Impact117]

I was completly unaware I could move my cleats in / out on my shoes - thanks !

[@ElrocStone]

Thanks for the advice on the pedal based power meters! I was saving up for one but I am knock kneed (pretty seriously) so it looks like it might have been a mistake.

[@Aubreykun]

Too wide can happen on fatbikes as they can require a longer stance to clear the chainstays. The common bottom-barrel department store steel fatbikes under the mongoose brand here in the USA have a 190mm rear dropout spacing and a very nonstandard bottom bracket.

[@jansalminen2584]

Had any problems with Campag cambon cranks and washer under the pedal? Campag do not recommend washers, but i think i need one or two washer to get the stance bigger

[@NeoPayneHK]

03:20 pain on/in the inside of the knee i should move my shoe away from the bike?

[@2StepTim]

I never even thought of this until l seen this video. I'm experiencing inside knee pain in my left knee. I started doing IT band stretches and its helped immensely. I'm gonna try adding a washer for a spacer and see if that helps. I wish bikefit James was in the US for a bike fit

[@NeoPayneHK]

@@2StepTim i did ITB stretch too. And never thought should do wider stance. Will try a bit

[@2StepTim]

I moved my cleat farther out so my stance is wider since I'm 6'1 215lbs with broad shoulders, it helped a ton, my knee pain has subsided along with all the stretching I do. Crushin it now !

[@lifeincycling]

Non-BFT related comment - I use that track (the one by "Lola Are" -- didn't know it was in Musicbed too btw) in the riding montages in my channel, I keep getting back to the same 3 or 4 songs every video, after scouring epidemicsound to an alternative, always to no avail.

[@kubagajda7347]

Noice! But please bring the old BikeFitTuesdays intro back, that dynamic one! :D

[@jamessheard5498]

Every cycling shoe I've ever had that's the cleat position I just put them to start with. Maybe a little rotation , but as fare back as they'll go with the back corner normally hanging off the shoe. Any narrower my thighs feel like their chewing the saddle. I'll be interested for any tips on handlebar shape and especially compact drops part versus the more traditional for most comfort in a sprint etc. I've tried to move to a compact bar for a less aggressive drop but find my wrists feel awkward as I think its because I cant drop my elbows down as easy due to the angle of the lower part of the bar and my wrist is the taking up the difference. Hope that makes sense Cheers

[@mf0u3021]

Put some mtb cranks on my gravel bike before summer. Now everything else feels super weird and narrow.

[@FlyingPastilla]

Dang it that was it !!! I had pain on the inside my knee and had to be very deliberate with my knee trakcing and ankling since I started track cycling last fall. I had to angle my cleats so I could get into the proper angle and felt so heavy on my hands I almost crashed a couple times when pushing hard. I'm 6'4 with long legs and all the track cranks are made for smaller people, looking at this its not hard to figure out why it felt uncomfortable.

[@dewiowen3487]

Hey, great video! Curious, I've recently replaced the cleats on my shoe due to wear and tear. I have replaced them in the same position as my old ones - or this is what I thought. Im now having pain on the upprt side of my right calf and this pain lasts a few days. Any ideas why this would be?

[@gapping3000]

What about bandy-legged people. I often knock my top tube when out of the saddle and I'm wondering if I should invert the bow-legged advise

[@Drogos79]

I heard the opposite on IT band issues. too narrow of a stance is said to induce IT band(?)

[@DennisIsermann]

Is it safe to put a spacer just on one pedal to increase the stance?

[@thepdails]

If I have pain on the outside of one foot, does it usually mean I listing toward that side? Or away from? I have pain on the outside of one foot, but it also happens to be my leg that *may* be shorter than the other.

[@ushermick]

If you go from wide stance pedals to narrow (spd) do you have to adjust saddle height?

[@NewEnglandDirtRoadie]

got the opportunity to borrow a pedal-based power meter, and the cycling dynanics indicate that my feet are outboard by 13mm left, and 8mm right. does this affect power output, that they aren't dead center over the pedal?

[@AbigailPender]

I have knee knock (opposite to bowed legs) and been struggling to find a cleat position that doesn't cause knee pain after 30 mins of riding, any tips?

[@Bikefitjames]

If you keep changing the cleat to no avail it’s not the cleat!

[@AbigailPender]

Very true haha

[@Knud451]

Great info! Perhaps a niche question. Pain in the tibialis anterior. Is that bike related or more mechanical function?

[@Bikefitjames]

Could be cleats too far forward

[@Knud451]

@@Bikefitjames thanks. I was thinking about that too, but my cleats are already all the way back.

[@Bikefitjames]

@@Knud451 what shoe is it?

[@Knud451]

@@Bikefitjames Bont Vaypor S.

[@Bikefitjames]

@@Knud451 could be the shoe - they aren’t the most stable (they’re cut very low) and only tend to work with one type of foot (pes planus - google it) which if you don’t possess it’s never gonna be right

[@ktakashismith]

9:11 - "I tend to find forefoot correction testicles issues" I beg your pardon, James? But honestly, great vid as always, and I want to chirp up say that I tried a forefoot wedge briefly this summer (at the suggestion of the internet, not my bike fitter, so my mistake). My lord, it felt awful in every way! It didn't correct my right knee tracking inwards, and it caused immense discomfort under the ball of my foot because, surprisingly, shoving a piece of hard plastic under your shoe insole doesn't feel that great!

[@thedownunderverse]

Ever learned to do a squat properly? Feet approx shoulder width apart. That way you recruit the posterior chain and effectively activate the core. You're balanced. You drive through the knee as it's braced in its strongest position. Now try to squat with your feet as wide as the stance on your bike (likely quite a bit narrower than your shoulder width). See how weak and unstable you become? Conclusion: as James says, almost everyone needs a wider stance.

[@carlosflanders518]

Wondering if a wiser stance can be more aero. If my foot is wide my leg will lean into the KZbin. At normal width my leg just pumps up and down but never comes close to toptube.

[@Knud451]

Could a too narrow stance width cause tightness in the hip external rotators? Or like a feeling that the thighs can't move "freely"?

[@raroshraj]

What about 20mm pedal spacers? Does James use those in fits?

[@scottthorpe1601]

Very informative as always

[@shrkys4]

Question, I have recently switched from Shimano Ultegra 6800 to Campy Record 12s, experiencing some sit bone pain on my left on a saddle that's been comfortable for nearly 10yrs, the q factors are different, 148mm for Shimano and 145.5 for Campy. Could this be the source of the pain? Just thought about it the other day as I was like, wtf, this saddle has always been money!

[@jonathanleadbeater2856]

Recently bought a new bike and been getting medial knee pain. Hope shifting the cleats will help. Thanks

[@Cade_Media]

Good luck!

[@Cade_Media]

(we have a video on knee pain too if you need extra info, in the bikefittuesdays playlist)

[@jonathanleadbeater2856]

@@Cade_Media will check it out, thanks

[@Juan_More_Mile]

Could you ask James how do we go about finding a bike fitter? I'm in the USA and when i asked the local bike club, everyone provided a different place that uses different technology. How do i decide where to go?

[@Cade_Media]

Not an easy task sometimes, but a good place to start is the IBFI website which had a list of fitters that have pursued further education. Also, try not to be swayed by the equipment they use, fancy technology is useless if the fitter doesn't know how to use it properly!

[@Juan_More_Mile]

@@Cade_Media thank you!

[@Kimberly_Sparkles]

This is exactly where I am at trying to perfect my bike's fit.

[@Kimberly_Sparkles]

Thank you, James. You just made me feel very good about my judgment. I decided that I needed extenders on my pedals and for the reasons you are describing here. It feels nice to have that confirmed.

[@thesilver2789]

What width pro griffon saddle do you usually recommend

[@scottmcrobb6937]

Q: Can poor bike fit or type of saddle contribute/cause piles? Been suffering with them for a good couple of years now and they won't go away! I ride an Astute saddle with a pressure relief channel.

[@PuertoRicanSoja]

Are the tires pumped when delivered ?

[@SepiaMC]

awsome top explained fast talked i like that 👍👍

[@gareth2933]

Love all these fitting videos. I’m reluctant to adjust anything as I’m not to bad apart from 2 things some pain on the outside of my left knee and outside foot pain of my right foot after a few hours of about 40km. What would be your first bit of advice? I’m 6’4” and have set cleats in the middle of my Planet X 🤦‍♂️ carbon shoe, would putting the clear all the way back and to the inside to increase stance help ? Any advice is greatly appreciated 🙏

[@fintanshaw4123]

I love James’ intelligence

[@BeatTheOnly]

Hi Francis! I wanted to ask, if I have pain on the back outside of my knees after rides does that mean my stance needs altering?

[@carlosflanders518]

Wider stance was a disaster for me. Forefoot wedge and cleats to the outside fixed my knee pain. Valgus foot. 182 cm height

[@JeffOehlsen]

If I ride flat pedals, my feet always end up half off the pedals. I always thought this was because bikes were just too narrow for people my size. James confirms this. Everything is way more comfortable with my foot half off the outside of the pedal. More proof I was not made for riding bikes. :)

[@Cade_Media]

I don't think anyone was made to ride bikes 😁

[@JeffOehlsen]

@@Cade_Media But it's so much fun most of the time

[@jeffreythompson6282]

How about the world of mtb where q-factor keeps being pushed wider and wider (hello super boost) - what is too wide?

[@thedownunderverse]

As usual, mtb is way ahead of road. Wider stance is simply better

[@BrandonGoranson]

I would love to hear if James has any recommendations for bike fitters elsewhere in the world. I'm in the western US, and don't really know where to get started finding a fitter near me. Short of this, how would I discover a good fitter without paying for several fits? What to look for?

[@Cade_Media]

The IBFI website has a list of fitters that have pursued further education and is a good place to start! Fitters using a jig like James's is a good sign, they make the fitting process much more efficient.

[@Cade_Media]

And good luck! Hope you can find someone

[@BrandonGoranson]

@@Cade_Media thanks!

[@tonystrange7224]

James talks sense. Be like James. That is all

[@stretch1396]

Excellent!!! Video

[@danielfox1301]

Hi, can James or anyone on here tell me if a bb86 reduces a lot of the problems talked about here vs a bb30 and whether that's a consideration to make when selecting a frame? Cheers

[@taylank.3141]

Not necessarily. Because the stance width relies on the "Q factor" which is determined by the chainset, not the frame's BB shell. And you can use any chainset on a BB30 frame anyway. But a chainset designed purely for a BB30/PF30 frame would have shorter spindle, therefore it would be narrower at the center but the crankarms widens to the same width as it's BB86 or BB386 versions. So the Q factor would theoretically be the same.

[@SuperDiddzz]

James got the beard back!

[@billleonard8674]

What's his take on numbness in the toes?

[@BigDog187]

Bike Fit Tuesday question - Can a bike fit be done for someone who doesn't use clipless pedals? At the risk of incurring the wrath of the cycling community, I've tried riding with clipless pedals(i don't feel comfortable being attached to my bike), and after falling off several times over a six month period i gave up. I've changed back to flat pedals on my bike(Trek Checkpoint AL4). I would like to buy a new road bike in the coming year, and feel i could benefit from a bike fit and advice on which brand/style of bike to go for.

[@derekhobbs1102]

I can't see why not. You just need to be aware if your foot position changes during ride. I gave up on clipless for last couple of years, but after watching these videos, and "correcting" cleat position, I'm now back on them with less issues.

[@zwamman]

What about heel wedges in the shoes?

[@lookrider3845]

Wow this is real deep I think we need a bike fit James really make me think a lot about it great Video and thanks again Mate.😎🚴

[@moneyb999]

what if im broad/bigger sized but have knocked knees?

[@xyber81]

It’s a shame there aren’t more decent bike fitters around across the country. I’ve basically used this series of vids to tune my position because I just couldn’t be arsed with the fitters near me. I’ve got mates that have had fits locally and rave about the importance of getting a bike fit, but they’ve moved their position since the fit “just so its a bit more comfortable” and one even didn’t think to transfer it across to his winter bike because he’s never had a problem with it 🤯

[@Cade_Media]

Worth a trip to London ;)