Franz Schubert - Symphony in C-major, Arr. from D.812

[@warrenmalach5528]

Many thanks! I don't have a problem with the Joachim orchestration. When I was collecting cds I tended to listen to the Leppard orchestration because the liner notes for the recording of it said that Leppard's orchestration was closer to what Schubert would have used. At least Joachim wasn't like Schoenberg in his orchestration of the Brahms Piano Quartet No 1. which uses a xylophone in the last movement!

[@TheJamesalden]

What a wonderful arrangement; as though Schubert had written it as a symphony; that it would figure that Joachim had an exceptional understanding of this particular work; that which Schubert may well have had it mind to write this out himself, or what have you.... Really, though...it's really and truly...much appreciated...Thank You!!....

[@alger3041]

+james alden I fully and completely agree - as far as I'm concerned, it IS a symphony for orchestra. Presented as a four hand piano sonata, it is no different than so presenting a Beethoven symphony in that manner. But might be amazed at how many heated debates I have gotten into with other commenters on other postings of this work, when I suggested and firmly maintain that the work is only completely fulfilled as an orchestral symphony, and works much better than as a four hand piano sonata. Purists, that's what you have out there - totally afraid to think for themselves outside the box, beyond what is handed to them. One even claimed that to so regard it would be an "insult to Schubert's legacy." I tenaciously continued debating with him until he finally left off, realizing he had no answer. But even Brian Newbould, reputed scholar that he is, goes by documents and lack thereof, claiming that Schubert left nothing behind that he intended this work to be an orchestral symphony. Whether or not this is true, I can only say to put all those extraneous factors aside and simply listen to the music - the very notes, and then determine what the music itself suggests to you. For me, the very gestures are too unmistakably orchestral to conceive of it otherwise. Joachim proved once and for all what this work is really about, and the validity of this concept is proven by the fact that others have also attempted orchestral realizations.To be sure, Joachim's realization is the best of them, but it is not perfect either. First and foremost, I would remove that damned piccolo from the last movement as being totally unsuitable for this type of music. And in the slow movement, there is a very tiny patch lasting no more than a few seconds, scored for massed woodwinds in a manner that would have been unheard of in an earlier period. But despite these as I see them blemishes, it nevertheless admirably demonstrates what this work is about in a very clear and lucid manner.

[@katherineparadis-chateaune8004]

@@alger3041 I really appreciated your strong position on this. I have follow your debate with the other person down the Lappard's version. I believe his opinions are also very interesting regarding the score (the idea of "an insult to Schubert's legacy" is of course not an argument and Schubert himself would be a lot amused by it). I respect you say "I know this is a symphony" although for myself I think I probably die with the question still open. I do know that Schubert would have felt a lot of gratitude toward those who did the orchestrations. For me, this truth is more telling than the one regarding if he intended a symphony. Of two persons having opposite answers to it, I will cherish the insights of whoever has an informed point of view about how we should do the orchestration. This is the most important question. In comparaison, the other isn't. What do you think?

[@katherineparadis-chateaune8004]

@@alger3041 Have you listen to the performance of Richter and Britten? It is beautiful! I believe however pianists always plays with too much intensity in many places, I think it is an habit that should be reconsidered.

[@alger3041]

I don't fully understand your question. Can you perhaps put it a little differently?

[@alger3041]

Perhaps so, and these are unquestionably great artists, though not in every situation - one cannot be outstanding in all parts of the repertoire although there are always exceptions. But as I have exhaustively stated in numerous comments, for me this work is essentially orchestral in its conception, regardless of whether Schubert orchestrated it or not, or whether he would have done so at a later stage. That being the case, I cannot help but think that presented as a four hand piano sonata as so many are wont to think, that it is incompletely realized, that it needs an orchestra to properly present it, evidence by the numerous attempts made by others to achieve this in a more complete presentation for its material.

[@iankemp1131]

Very nice to have this available. Tovey always said that in his view the Grand Duo was written by Schubert as a symphony, but his four-hand piano arrangement is the only one that survives. However, "from first to last there is not a trace of piano technique in the work". Bernard Shore agreed and said "Joachim and others have scored this fine work for orchestra, and the result is an unquestionable symphony - a grand piece!" Other scholars emphasise that the piece was definitely written as a four-hands sonata (see discussion below). But whatever its origins, to me it certainly seems to work really well as a full orchestral symphony, and sounds convincing; I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing it.

[@alger3041]

I myself have always considered this to be in essence an orchestral symphony. Hearing it in its published piano four hand format for me is no different for me than hearing the same with a Beethoven symphony. And as the style and manner of the work suggests that it was written later, say in the 1840's or 1850's (amazing for Schubert) the Brahmsian manner of orchestration does not bother me at all. I feel that Joachim did a far better job with it than Leppard in the latter's professed intentions to produce a setting that might have better approximated what Schubert might have done, but I feel that the result is actually poorer, with an inferior instrumental blend. Joachim's setting holds the field for me, but it is not perfect either. There are two factors in it that I find disconcerting. In the slow movement, early in the recapitulation of the first theme, there is a short passage for massed woodwinds that to me sounds completely inappropriate and unidiomatic. And in the finale, I would never use a piccolo in it, and in fact, a conductor friend of mine who leads community orchestras, picked up this work on my recommendation and discovered that the piccolo part was completely dispensible, and did nicely without it. My friend was completely bowled over by this Joachim setting of Schubert, and claimed that he couldn't believe that it was originally a piano work. I answered him by advising him that it is not, but rather a work for orchestra that Schubert never got around to orchestrating in his short life. Based on what I and others hear in this work, I absolutely refuse to accept Schubert scholar Brian Newbould's claim that this work was never intended in any sense an orchestral symphony. It simply doesn't hold water with me.

[@iankemp1131]

@@alger3041, thanks, interesting and surprising to hear Newbould's view, particularly as he has orchestrated the piano version of Symphony No. 7 (D729) which seems to have had a similar history and is equally worth hearing. But I agree with you (and Tovey, Shore, Joachim, Leppard, etc.etc...). The more I listen to it, the more I feel convinced that it is a real symphony and not an orchestration; it just "sounds right"!

[@iankemp1131]

In fact, until barely 100 years ago the piano duet was a very common transcription of symphonies, to the extent that Tovey in the early 20th century regretted that most Haydn symphonies were only heard in that format. Schubert couldn't even get the 8th and 9th symphonies performed in his lifetime, so he may have conceived the Grand Duo symphonically but wrote it in the format where at least he would get the chance to actually hear it performed. He may have felt - why bother orchestrating it if it will never be played? Likewise with D 708 and D 729. Sometimes we don't realise how lucky we are to have all the recordings of orchestral versions available, as well as subsidised orchestras and radio broadcasts

[@alger3041]

Your suppositions make total sense to me. Just because it was handed down to us in the form as we have it, we cannot necessarily take it literally; i.e., that Schubert in the end so intended it. The style of writing is too unmistakably orchestral to think of it differently. I am really surprised at Brian Newbould, Schubert scholar that he is, for taking this stance of total denial. Forget any historical facts; just listen to the work and decide. Ian, if you visit the posting of the version by Leppard, you will see a serious debate I had with someone over this issue, and in the end, he realized that he couldn't argue any further about it. But you my find the pro and con arguments as interesting. You will recognize my user name - alger3041.

[@iankemp1131]

@@alger3041 Is there a published reference for Newbould's comments? There is a discussion on this subject on Wikipedia at the moment. Maybe some of the people you have debated with are involved! Schubert's biographer Brown felt the piece is more in sonata than symphonic style, whereas Tovey felt the opposite. All I can say as an amateur is that I enjoyed hearing both versions and they bring out different facets. It has stimulated me to listen to other four-hand piano music on KZbin, like the original versions of the Dvorak Slavonic Dances and Brahms Hungarian Dances.

[@kaybeenullenvoyde9196]

Lovely. Have never heard this before!

[@eligatlin144]

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[@oakleyanderson4112]

@Eli Gatlin instablaster :)

[@eligatlin144]

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[@eligatlin144]

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[@oakleyanderson4112]

@Eli Gatlin Happy to help =)

[@tomstarzeck7137]

Brilliant!

[@ProfDrislane]

Written with the clear evidence of Beethoven's influence, yet Schubertian at the same time, the orchestral qualities of Schubert's score are generally well served in this orchestration. Schubert was in the habit of writing orchestrally for piano duet (see D.940 and D.947, etc., for example), and even solo piano (see the "Wanderer Fantasy," and the first movement of D.784, etc.), so insisting that Schubert's original is a short score or transcription of a symphony doesn't necessarily get us very far. But as the work is obviously "Symphonic" in style, a good orchestration is a welcome addition to our understanding/appreciation of the music, unlike the completely absurd Weingartner arrangement of Beethoven's Op.106, the laughable inflations of the Grosse Fuge for string orchestra, or the "beer and Berlioz" butchery of the Listz B minor Sonata by Leo Weiner..

[@warrenmalach5528]

I just checked the first few pages of Grand Duo videos and found one movement of the Leppard orchestration, which I hadn't seen before, but that was all.

[@alger3041]

There are all there. I just relistened to all four movements. Just type in "Schubert, Grand Duo, for orchestra, Leppard. If you ever do get to hear the entire work as done by Leppard, I would be very curious as to your impression. Because I find that I'm now starting to prefer the Joachim, after all. It is simply a matter of the instrumentation offering a much smoother and better blend. That fact that it sounds in places somewhat Brahmsian does not bother me at all, as the work is in a very advanced style, far more so than much of Schubert's output in general, and could easily betaken as something that might have been written in the 1840's or 1850's. "'Authenticity" does not enter into for me at all, and actually, the Leppard version does not particularly bring Schubert to my mind. I think that it is a matter of which version more effectively presents the work. The only change I would make with the Joachim would be to eliminate the piccolo in the last movement as unneeded for this type of work. But I feel that there should be no argument that this work is properly an orchestral symphony, and not at all a four hand sonata, absolutely despite what Brian Newbould might tell us.

[@user-em8pw5yk6e]

この作品は「大二重奏曲」をヨーゼフ＝ヨアヒムがオーケストラ作品として編曲したものであり、交響曲ではありません。

[@warrenmalach5528]

I wish that the Leppard orchestration was available on KZbin, as the orchestration is supposed to be closer to that Schubert would have used.

[@alger3041]

I believe that it is available on KZbin (at least I hope it still is, as I've heard it here).

[@xavierbordes1373]

L'orchestration de Joachim est assez proche de ce que Schubert aurait pu en faire, mais Schubert aurait eu plus d'imagination dans les timbres. En 1824, c'est le Schubert entré dans la maturité, il lui reste quatre ans, et il écrit cette année-là des oeuvres splendides....

[@williamklimas7515]

Sound Brahmsesque with this orchestration, still enjoyable however.

[@sociocrat263]

Theme from Sonata D812?

[@saranogueira3986]

I must say that this time you outdid yourself...we are simply not worthy ;-)

[@melissal7690]

2:41

[@juanvelez8564]

I can endure advertisements that come BETWEEN the movements, but when they interrupt the movements, I leave the page. I am grateful for "Kuhlau's" efforts, but this is too irritating to put up with. Good luck to all. 'Bye.

[@bloodgrss]

You need to find a KZbin ad blocker-their are free ones out there. Enjoying anything on this site would be impossible for me otherwise-sorry those of you who depend on the ad's for your livelihood....

[@johnb6723]

​@@bloodgrssOr get KZbin Premium - it only costs £12 per calendar month. No ads.

[@johnmueter378]

Great to hear this orchestration of Schubert's Grand Sonata. Unfortunately the performance is uninspired and plods along - especially the slow movement.

[@alger3041]

I originally felt that way, but after hearing other attempts, I now consider this as the best. Above all, I cannot tolerate renditions of anything in which the material is hectically rushed, as appears to be the going trend nowadays and many listeners apparently have become surfeited with it, virtually expect such an approach in anything done today. One loses a lot along the way when music is presented in that fashion.

[@alger3041]

It should be obvious by this time that this work only makes complete sense when presented orchestrally. Whether one prefers the Joachim transcription as here, or the Leppard or any other version is totally immaterial. Presented in its original piano four hand form is no different from having a Beethoven symphony so presented. For me there is no argument on that issue. That said, I will now judge the presentation on this posting. I feel that there is a certain listlessness in the reading. It is emphatically not a matter of tempo - the choice of tempos is actually quite feasible, but at the same time a certain verve and sprightliness in the playing, along with a degree of incisiveness - I cannot fully put my finger on it - which I've heard in other (orchestral) performances of this work, is simply not present here. This reading somehow does not hold the attention, and contrary to what others might think hearing the work for the first time in this posting, it is due to the manner of presentation and not to the work itself. And incidentally, as a side comment, I will venture the opinion that the "big symphony" that Schubert was striving all his life to write, in direct response to Beethoven's accomplishments, was achieved with this work, and not with the so-called "Great" Symphony in C Major. What we have here is very forward looking, and can easily be thought of as having been written in the 1840's or 1850's.

[@alger3041]

Having heard other renditions of this wonderful setting, I have decided that after all this is the best one extant on KZbin. My comments in the second paragraph of my statement I now completely retract.

[@andrews582]

Personally, I prefer the Leppard orchestration. I think Joachim 's score is too heavy.

[@alger3041]

Everyone is entitled to their preferences. For me, the Leppard has a poorer instrumental blend, but that is simply the way it hit me.

[@shanubag6785]

I've noticed the similarity between the 3rd movement of Grand Duo and the Quintet

[@alger3041]

Not only the scherzo but the last movement as well. I have long felt that both works are simply too big for the medium in which they were handed down to us, and both would benefit enormously by a suitable orchestration. We already have the Grand Duo; hopefully at some point an orchestral version of the Quintet will appear.

[@aspohrn]

Missing the gay melodies of symphonies 3, 5, & 6

[@alger3041]

Early Schubert and late Schubert are two different animals. And of those early ones, No. 2 has long been my first choice, and not necessarily for gay melodies.

[@iankemp1131]

@@alger3041 Quite right. All the first 6 Schubert symphonies are gems. Then he was working out how to move on, sometimes maybe more successfully than others, but nailing it in the "Unfinished" and "Great C major". Amazing to think that "late Schubert" means pieces he wrote in his late twenties!