Fresh Account - Dream Collapsing

[@dzonc]

This is some really good quality content - Well done team preach for making this happen. It feels like so many WoW KZbinrs these days are just quickly throwing together videos about posts on MMO Champion. This is completely different, you listened to the community and heard what people were saying, you carefully considered how you could investigate the issue and you thoughtfully offer your opinions as an influencer and mythic raider. I've really enjoyed this series and I hope it gets you the views / thumbs / donations you deserve, more of this please. Top job.

[@Narusasu98]

I completely agree, I find these videos so interesting

[@Hvezdy10]

In dungeons there's the problem that admiting you don't know what to do and ask... People will leave. Happened to me several times that my tank asked what to do and mage made us a portal, apologized he doesn't want to explain stuff to people and left...(the tank was actually pretty good, just didn't know that Dungeon) You can see how people are just afraid to ask questions. Even though some people would be happy to explain. You just have to get burned once.

[@moyga]

That didn't happen in Vanilla because it took so much effort to reform the group. Good and bad sides to everything. If its very easy to join another group and start again after leaving, people will be less likely to take time to help you. Also, when you could only play with people on your server, there was more of a community where you had some level of self interest in helping people on your server and making them better players.

[@lukeluckynblue1873]

But if you are going to do +10 up you need to know mechanics :) you can learn those mechanics from youtube from better players from many sources dont you think that go straight to big keys and someone left because someone dont know what to do is stupid? :D it is cause people in High keys know they're classes people in HC mythic raiding know they're classes you need research learn practice simple as that

My first dungeon I selected the tank option and went in there kitted out as fury. I spent the whole raid dosing with bare hands. A whole pug thought it was fucking hilarious. Sure it was only Deadmine but Its not all as toxic as you'd think.

[@Mattikus517]

"We can all help each other, It's a team based game" Man, I fucking wish more people would think like this, I wish.

[@chrisacker499]

For sure!

[@maggimaster]

I was on an alt in lfr and and there were tanks that had no idea what to do and a few of us were explaining the fight while others were bitching saying it's a waste of time to teach them

[@ZeroKOR1]

Our Blood DK would laugh at you on Heroic he plays hearthstone while we raid lol

[@Mattikus517]

This isn't about the skill of a tank, It's about people unwilling to let tanks practice in a practical setting. Your DK tank is irreverent here.

[@maggimaster]

ZeroKOR1 wow your dk tank managed to be awesome with no practice

[@kevjp5987]

I said on the forum that LFR should hit people with stuns and loss of control for getting tacs wrong so people learn, damage is ignorable particularly with strong healers. People on the forum disagreed with me.

[@Jonsse]

That's actually brilliant. Have all the one shot mechanics be in normal and above, then put 30sec disorients and 1min stuns on those abilities in LFR. A bad player will not learn anything lying on the floor dead, they'll just be confused. If they're constantly confused, they'll fall in to apathy thinking they can't do anything about it.

[@NoConsequenc3]

the forums are filled with alt-posting morons that think doing mythic 0 means they play the game

[@scrummpybear]

Thats because its a stupid idea. RF is for learning... if it takes people 100 tries they are still learning. Not everyone gets everything first time or even first 10. Its not that they dont realise they messed up its that maybe they arent good enough. Not every should be able to raid RF needs to be removed entirely. Raiding is an earned privilege not a right.

[@kevjp5987]

@@scrummpybear your comment doesn't even make sense. The whole point of wow was to be more inclusive from the start, hence why it was easier to get into than the MMOs that preceded it, that's why it got so big.

[@scrummpybear]

@@kevjp5987 nope, the reason wow was successful was because almost every mmo up until then punished you for death, youd lose items or xp or whatever. That doesnt makr it easoer to access it made it easier to play. Back that up with only about 2% of players ever saw classic naxx and what about thay givrs you the impression everyone should raid? Raiding wasnt EVER made to be inclusive, until RF was added, in what is reffered to as "the dumbing down of the game" with specs and qol changes in cata.

[@Rodman200818]

You’re a good man.

[@Rizerr96]

The two biggest issues I see with the "PuG life" today is negative reinforcement on Blizzards end, and neglect on the players end. What Blizzard has been trying to do with things like Mythic Keystones and LFR is make the gradual increase in difficulty you're talking about now. It should work, because it makes sense. If getting to the top is a series of stairs, as opposed to a series of wall climbs, people should be able to learn and develop the skills for higher content. Unfortunately this is *not* the case for a large portion of the community. Instead, as you described, we have this problem of people on the lower levels expecting and recieving carries, blasting through content meant to prepare them for the content ahead, so when they get to that wall, they are completely oblivious. This is especially true for things like LFR and Normal Raiding. LFR doesn't teach you anything. In fact, *it only reinforces this habit of lazy play.* People go into LFR and get this idea that, if they wipe enough times, eventually the boss will go down and they don't even need to change anything about their own play. In fact, a few days ago I read this line, exactly, in an LFR run. "They should make a LFR rank 2." I laughed because it was so insane. The bottom line is, people are being rewarded for playing lazily. This gets reinforced enough times for a long enough period, people have a hard time realizing "Oh shit, I'm doing this wrong. I gotta try something else." and that is the major flaw in Blizzards game design. For a vast part of the community, we are not making this any better. People are selfish, and although they have every right to be, but it only makes the problem worse. We neglect appropriately item level players because, you're right, it's risky. It's so much safer to take in the carries. And, if someone appropriately geared manages to get into a Keystone or a Normal Raid, well they got *another* hurdle waiting for them. When we get inexperienced players, we often kick them from our groups if they don't know mechanics. How will they learn mechanics if they're always getting booted for not knowing? Guides can only take them so far, experience is the best teacher. Unfortunately people are rarely given the opportunity learn. Personal story; I have raided with Guilds before. Blackrock Foundry and HFC I was with a Mythic Raiding guild from Uldum. I did the PuG life for Emerald Nightmare and Trial of Valor. Got a guild to take me in for Nighthold and Tomb of Sargeras from Quel'thalas. Now I'm in the PuG life once again for Antorus, clearing heroic weekly leading my own groups. My Palladin is an average 965 ilevel across all 3 specs. My DH falling behind at 955 Vengeance, and currently working on a Survival Hunter at 916. The reason I can't raid with guilds, although I'd very much like too, is simply because of schedule restraints. I'm at a time in my life where I cannot always guarantee the hours set aside, and that is frustrating for many guilds, so I'm guildless for the time being. The PuG life is very, very frustrating at times, but for many of us it's the only option. The only way we can improve it is if, instead of neglecting the players willing to learn, we teach them. It is a hastle, but believe me it is worth it. There are those players who refuse to take advice and advance, and those cannot be helped. But there are those who want to make it work. Over the course of Antorus, I have taught approximately 8 different tanks every mechanic for Heroic, and now they can hold their own in PuGs, and are most likely inticing to guilds looking for a tank. I have taught twice as many healers and DPS as well, not on how to play their specs, I don't know enough to say so, but on where they fall short mechanically speaking. *The absolute wors thing you can do in a PuG is berrate and kick a player without offering them a solution to their problem. If you do, then the next raid they join will have the unpleasant experience of a tank trying to stack Heroic Coven.*

[@nesc505]

I understand the persoal story. BUT for each player willing to learn there is 5 times as many people NOT wanting to learn. They think they are the best and don't need teaching and a helping hand in trying to do better since they already know how to play the game. WoW has and is still becoming more toxic since people feel entilted to things all the time without learn the ropes and the way to get better.

[@r3v3rbs0ul]

This has been my experience since starting in Legion. After finding a guild and doing lots of reading and video watching I know the fights now. But because of similar time constraints I can't do guild raiding. I spend a lot of my time running keys below 10 and teaching people the mechanics when they mess up. As much as it's Blizzard's problem it's a community problem as well. What really gets me is that a lot of the folks that have this toxic behavior are the same as the people who want the game to be like it used to be. I played the first week of WoW launch and the community of everyone learning and teaching each other was a huge part of that experience. If people want that type of game back, then the community needs to act like it.

[@Anaphriel]

Another roadblock issue that causes these "metric for being good" to fall apart, is that you can attain everything the group is looking for...with gold. Every day there is Guilds selling Heroic carried, M+15 carries, you get the loot, you get the .io score, you get the iLvL...and have learned jack shit through the entire experience. You eventually hit that 960+ range, think you're good...and wipe the group on a trash pull.

[@Wheellos]

I agree that more experienced players should be more open to giving weaker players a chance than they currently tend to be. However, if someone clearly shows that he is just hitting random abilities and hasn't even spent the time to look up any kind of rotation or spell priority then they arn't ready to learn the mechanics of a specific fight. Getting a very basic idea of your spell priority takes 5 minutes, with another 10 minutes to practise it on a dummy. You will still make mistakes, but be 80% of the way to doing the dps you should do at your iLevel. I was able to do this 8 years ago when I was 15. Today's class discords have only made it easier. If a iLevel 950 dps does 400k dps on a dummy it will barely matter that (s)he doesn't know to LoS the boss to avoid a chunk of damage.

[@livelywombat]

My biggest problem is that I left the game a while ago. Decided to come back and now there are over twice as many 5mans. I ran through them all on heroic but there are just too many to watch videos on all of them. M+0 is so toxic you can’t learn there and it’s the first big wall to get over. On top of that the stress you get from trying to heal something above you is the other bad players with high ilvl blaming you for not keeping them up through their mistakes. You get kicked and learn nothing. It’s a hard and frustrating climb trying to pug solo. Specially if you do this game as a hobby and not a second job.

[@Zephyrbal]

Flame Wreath in the Year of our Lord Two-Thousand and Eighteen. Holy shit there's no hope.

[@Tonight-Oni]

I once had a healer tell me “It’s okay for me to stand in the fire, I can heal myself” ... It’s not okay :(

[@SleakozzyHD]

It's really eye opening to see that these kind of players exist! I pug sometimes when my guild aren't around but this is something else! Don't know how you kept your head mike lol.

[@thatgeekdad]

Sleakozzy This world is more reality of WOW than guild life. I have one toon I purposely keep unguilded as a play to myself time since LK. Lock as well who can’t even get in to normal anything even though with my other toons I am in a mythic farm guild as a MT.

[@kmdsubs3148]

It's so easy to avoid if you just find the right guild. Operative word is "right". Started this game in BC, had a blast for about a year and quit. Came back at the launch of MoP and been playing regularly ever since ... ranging from super casual to mythic progression. I'll just say I can count on one hand how many awkward experiences I've had with immature kids.

[@FlesHBoX]

I think I have pugged a keystone maybe 4 times in all of wrath. I just don't want to put myself through that, so I do my weekly 15 or 16 on my MW main, tank a 10-13 on my DK, and do various lower keys on alts as guildies need spots filled. I maybe do 2-4 m+ a week max, and if the guild doesn't do any in a given week, then neither do I. At least with guildies, when you screw up you can joke about it, or pick on them in fun over it, which makes things so much less stressful even when you know that for the most part m+ is a time waste.

[@m3.s0]

kmd subs hwas raider in bc- end of wotlk. Stopped playing because of 24/7 raidguid and no time for family. Now that i play again i dont want to fall back to this habbit. So no more guild. I punish myself for that beeing with pugs...

[@Icicleyo]

Sleakozzy Heh... These kind of players happens to me EVERY GOD DAMN SINGLE WEEK... FOR MONTHS! And I can't get into the good groups where I belong despite my ilvl being 965 just because my m+ score is low due to I can't be arsed doing every single m+ dungeon on +20 for score, they are not that fun, and why bother to be honest? It's just a number that has no value. The gear is the same, its just boosting your e-peen further.. Stupid "gearscore" system a nolife elitist invented in patch 7.2.5.

[@sabamonstergaming]

"Does it matter? Do the thing that helps!" Words to fuckin live by. You're awesome Preach.

[@Kookiebiskit]

FORTY THREE MINUTES OF PREACH MY BODY IS READY

[@nhagan001]

And if you're body isn't, I'm prepared to take sloppy seconds

[@AdrasAdraki]

my feelings werent ;_;

[@KronosSupreme]

lol he thinks hes going to get a heroic Antoris done. You need to do heroic Antoris before you can enter heroic Antoris.

[@Briansgate]

No kidding! One of the biggest problems with getting groups is that if you need gear, you cant go. Only the people who already have the gear can go.

[@cashnelson2306]

I'm actually really looking forward to his thoughts on this issue, because it is a real Thing: without AOTC, you can't get in to AOTC groups - but non-AOTC groups will always, ALWAYS fall apart and fail to complete the dungeon, so you've got to join an AOTC group. Nasty catch-22 that I really don't know the answer to, so I just enjoy being in a guild.

[@samward1317]

I got denied from a normal mode pug today with 965 gear level because I am only 9/11 heroic antorus so couldn't link AOTC. The leader had no even killed normal mode Argus.

[@iyanev]

you know blizzard implemented a way for this not to happen. It allows you to not be constantly judged on your ilv alone and avoid the crazy toxicity of pugs. It's called a guild

[@loiuhuiygny7guyguiygk]

most of us saw this coming, so when Antorus HC was out and 940 was the base ilvl, i brought all my alts in BEFORE the 960 cap happens :P .. now any of my alt under 940 will never see the light of HC, yet the others get instant invites without even needing to link curve.

[@Label07]

That is the biggest reason why PUGs don't work; It's so easy to find another group if the first falls apart. Most people seem to not care, with a "oh well, maybe the next group will be better" mentality. No introspection, no reflection just plain stupidity thinking it must be someone else. I love how far matchmaking has come and how easy it is to find groups in most games, with that comes the trash players as well, I don't say that just in regards to skill level but also personality. Well done Preach, suffer well.

[@blake7587]

Not really. It’s just that unlike raid groups or guildies there are no voice comms so it’s harder to coordinate.

[@holydush]

dude actually played with broken gear cause he was afraid of being kicked.. lol

[@mrborgeusborg9164]

Or the classic. "why was I kicked?" To low dps. "I'm the healer?"

[@icresp4263]

Triksterism that happened to me! I was tanking and smashed the dps and they kicked me. My mate was also in the group (who I was carrying) who witnessed it too.

[@kallmannkallmann]

In cata i was pala healer and jc. Becuse i had so good gear and knew what i was doing i was top effective hps in dungeon finder. I was Abel to do the jc extract ore thingy between casts and still noone died. My guild called me stone braker (did it in our raids aswell). Still got kicked 9/10 Times doing it in lfr. We did not even wipe..and noone died... (exept insta kill mechanic ofc)

[@steelbread9644]

I've been kicked while leveling for not wearing the "correct" heirlooms, despite me being the healer and nobody coming even close to dying.

[@89qwyg9yqa34t]

In some ways, you can't blame him. Even if you're being reasonable, people have learned that a quick and easy way to be kicked is to stand out for any reason and a great way to not be kicked is to try hard to play dumb. It's sort of like the name under which I'm posting. If I used my real name, I could say something that stands out and suddenly find a man over my bed on some random night, ready to thrust a machete. That's not how almost anybody works, but since there's always one person who does and it only takes one to ruin your life, it's just best to not use your real name on the Internet.

[@Metadaxe]

That guy who didn't repair his armor is a really sad but typical example of what happens as a result of toxicity towards (perceived) bad play. Every time you make a mistake in this game, or somebody thinks you did, you're berrated for it, often kicked out of the group. This is why people don't speak up. Your best bet for getting through content you're not that familiar with is to shut the fuck up and hope nobody notices you. Everybody expects you to know the content already. If you ask a question, if you tell people you're having a problem, if you do *anything* to show unfamiliarity with the content or a lack of game knowledge or whatever, you're instantly risking getting kicked or flamed. This is also why people get so defensive when you give them legit suggestions-it's read as accusatory, because people are so itchy to shit on other people. It's why you get useless advice after a wipe like "we need to not stand in [thing]" when nobody stood in the thing and the wipe happened for other reasons. Anything you can do to make it seem like you know the content. And yeah, it's a cycle, because it's also makes people more ready to snap at other players, even if they did nothing wrong. Because if you wipe, and you don't actually know what the fuck happened, maybe it's your fault. And everybody is going to want to deflect blame as quickly as they can, so that *they're* not the one under fire. In an earlier video, you said that you thought that toxicity mostly only popped up in response to bad play. I think that's true. I almost never get people flinging shit on a good run. But just because it happens in response to bad play, does not mean it isn't toxicity. The hostility with which many players respond to bad play with still has a deleterious effect on the community and the experience of playing the game. It's not just about having somebody call you a fuckass occasionally, it's about the culture of fear it creates, where you're constantly on edge, stressed at the prospect of even the smallest mistake, afraid to communicate or ask for advice, and completely unfazed by the fact that somebody would go multiple wipes with broken equipment out of fear of anger or reprisal from their teammates. P.S. this video is basically a 45 minute ad for raider.io.

[@darryndw]

This is true iv been playing the game since the beginning and this was never an issue back then, if you were unsure of something you could ask and someone would help now if you ask a question in trade chat or general chat you get made fun of for asking something as if you should already know, new players wont know the stuff that someone who has been playing since the start people should share there knowledge instead of being dicks

[@averyavery1470]

But you are supposed to know a fight before entering it. They’re are multiple guides on multiple platforms, there’s no reason you shouldn’t be studying fights before entering a raid. At that point you’re just being lazy and a liability. Let’s not forget, bad players are toxic for the whole team.

[@jimbology7617]

Man I just rewatched this, and that mentality of "oh, well i shouldn't have to do that!" just pisses me off to an irrational level nowadays. It's like, yeah sure maybe you shouldn't have to, but we don't live in a world of "should", so you fuckin do, bud.

[@Orcawhale1]

hahaha chat at 2:41 Xinhu: You very good player? Preach: Id like to think so Xinhu: That's the spirit! Me: Oh you have no idea, haha

[@Magicmano123]

The best part is the monk was dead on every single boss.

[@Zeromint]

Put your logs where your mouth is boy.

[@Orcawhale1]

Magicmano: Dind't even notice that, haha! Zero mint: I think you might be replying to the wrong thread.

[@hazbuk]

You mean because Preach is actually a bang average player? Made me laugh seeing that guy lick his ring too lol

[@Preachgaming]

how many rank 1's and full mythic clears do i need before im above average bro? gimme a goal to aim for at least

[@unclecolumbo8647]

Honestly, this is the game I've been playing and why I had to take a break from it for the past couple months. It was incredibly eye opening to hear you say the bit about the time spent was equivalent to MORE than a mythic raiding schedule. Made me realize just how important it is to find a guild/some friends if I want to continue playing and actually progress.

[@muffinhydra]

i think joining a cesspool guild would be beneficial to the project

[@RobertSmith-ch9jj]

Y tho?

[@Wryvern200]

Because that's what happens to just about every new player xD

[@muffinhydra]

exactly

[@sunwalkeredaaga4154]

Cesspool guilds mostly died in WoD.

[@ygi90]

Cesspool guilds are still very much there. Can barely go 2 minutes without spam guild invites whenever I make a new character.

[@stalok5963]

Russian paladin tank in mid M+ - trust me they wont listen to you even if you tell them something in Russian. Almost never.

[@yurika12]

Stalok same thing goes for Brazilian players on the NA side. Our guild and small group of people know better than to invite for those servers. Unfortunately, they have a pretty bad attitude in general. Sad cuz back in BC we had a few BR players that were fine, though I think having their own servers now let that mindset stew and create a worse overall group.

[@Tyrvox]

11:10 sums up why many healers/tanks don't like mythic +. Dps is too lazy to even cookie themselves, yet healers and tanks are expected to max dps at ever second on top of doing their normal jobs. The last few years of easy content for dps has created this odd group of people that act like elitists even though they are garbage at the game. If they die it is lag, rng or somebody else's fault.

[@RobertSmith-ch9jj]

Not saying you're wrong, but I have had legit latency issues most of Legion.

[@chrisacker499]

Hey, I was *hits numlock and autoruns into wall* lagging really bad there, you baddie lrn2play even without me you noobs should have been able to kill that. If it were reversed I woulda been able to down it without one of you scrubs. I quit healing a while back, at least in any pugs over 10. OMG healer, no heals wtf?! You were standing in instadeath, I cannot heal through that. I can on my main, you are just a baddie. People are so stupid.

[@OMFGcataFAN1]

im starting to think im playing an entirely different game. Very rarely have i experienced anyone do anything but try to max their dps to beat the others on the dps meter. im the same and its fun to compete. i havent been raiding in legion and mostly just pugging. i cant say ive had the same experiences as preach in this video. maybe ive just been lucky.

[@Heyaitsjohn]

Trying to heal through grievous this week has shown me that this group of no-skill elitists is a very, very real problem. Even classes with built-in self-heals just won't touch them until they're literally about to die (and even then, they sometimes won't). They stand in shit, they don't interrupt, stun, or use their utility at all. They just expect me to brute force heal through everything. Which, sure, I can do on lower keys, but why not just pop Turtle every once in a while (even between pulls just to clear grievous) for Christ's sake. It's not like you lose anything for it. And even when it is a slight DPS loss, lower DPS is better than dead.

[@yurika12]

Heyaitsjohn there are also those kinds that pop turtle or bubble at the slightest breeze and don't have it up when they need it, but obviously this is much more rare. As a Healer you see some stupid shit that is for sure.

[@Kingstedi]

this was one of the best gameplay series I've ever seen, so educating.. And you Preach always say things in the way it is simple to understand what you are trying to say. when time comes, hope you do more series like this one.

[@ChigMcWack]

This is still relevant. I got my Keystone master in Shadowlands and then went down to 12s to get easy Valor and it is soooo much worse there. Never failed so many keys as i have now. Good thing we still get 2 loots...

[@maj.peppers3332]

Such a true point about needing a guild (or friends or SOMETHING), trying to do any of this stuff alone through the group finder is absolute hell. Once I actually got into a guild that matched my schedule (annoying elitists as they were), things became a lot more smooth sailing.

[@stanislavsoska6749]

And thats why Raider.Io score is a thing... Item level is trash indicator and unfortunately its pushed everywhere. Keystone master is irrelevant cuz it costs 80k gold at this point...

[@mrborgeusborg9164]

Thank you preach for a great video. I understand it must be very very hard to go through this, but keep it up. I like this videos of different reasons. It makes me understand the game more, the people in our community. For a couple of years I was worried that my computer wouldn't be able to handle a raid. It had problems with dungeons. When I got a new computer, I talked to my old GM that I wanted to test raiding. We left on good terms, and I still have many alts in that old guild. I joined a casual heroic raiding guild the first week of ToS. The first day I got asked if I wanted to join a m+11 maw of souls. My highest ever was +8. It was tyrannical. 2hours 30min later we had killed the last boss. But I didn't stop. I wanted to be better. I started reading, different addons, muscle memory. People in the new guild once asked me if I even had any alts because of all the raids I joined on my main rogue. I wanted to test different abilities, so I got that in musclememory. If x happens I'm already pressing the correct keybind. Today, I've 2.6k raider.io score, got 95% performance on garothi hc and I'm more pissed of people saying : "melee only dies in m+, you can't join" even if I have higher score than them. It's been a journey and I hope to continue.

[@vfaulkon]

See, this is what makes all the talk about being the better player fall a little flat, even though it's true - it doesn't matter how competent YOU are if the rest of the group isn't at least attempting to play the game as though they care. It's not just LFR. It's just more obvious there because more people play it and can see how these piss-easy fights become slogs because a tank doesn't go up the portal during Hasabel, or a healer goes DPS spec the entire instance, or DPS keep dying to basic mechanics, etc. You can check a player's item levels or achievements or legendaries before you invite someone, but you can't check whether or not they give a shit 'til you're already in deep. You can't make them try, and you can't make them care. It's immensely frustrating seeing one or two people manage to drag down an entire group (or four or five an entire raid) and being powerless to do anything about it. It's why I don't raid, and I imagine it's why a lot of new players who DO care are afraid to step in. Best of luck to you, Preach. It's all I got for ya. ^_^

[@NateScreenPrints1]

The message that iLVL is the "key" is absolutely coming from blizzard. The first thing you are greated with when reaching max leveling and trying to do heroic dungeons is an iLVL requirement. the LFR que, iLVL requirement. Leveling offers no challenge and does not introduce players to the idea of "mechanics." Normal dungeons don't prepare players for "mechanics." The game gives no indication to players that they actually need to learn their class and use their whole toolkit. None of that is a thing until you get to the hardest-end content. Its no wonder people get there with free weekly chest gear and expect free handouts... Its absolutely blizzards fault.

[@notes9465]

man the amount of times i swear preach was about to say itemlevel cant save you from stupidity but then didn't trying to not call people idiots, i respect this

[@gdragon56]

Mike, I feel your pain. I am a Disc/holy priest main. Started play the game a month before the prelaunch. Thanks to your video series on tanking I took up brew master. But, I also learned by fire the mechanics of the dungeons from working my self up from the bottom. I started with a group that would do keys with me, because i found i loved it. Though I was a terrible healer. It was not until the Start of tomb that i started to get better and was doing the higher keys at the time. 8, 9, 10s. But, it taught me in the pug world if I bring along the random extra utilities it helps the run. Things like auto hammers and drums. Because either they do not have any or they do not want to use their resources. Which I think is selfish. I would love to find a guild that would take me. But, every time I look I find nothing but toxic groups. So I have learned to be independent. That is the sad truth I look at this video series and see my self reflected in it. One who has learned the mechanics from watching you and other people fail the mechanics. I am grateful to you and your series of videos on the roles as those gave me confidence and knowledge to be able to push onward. Heck I learned not to fear using rapture anymore from your tdp in Cathedral as disc. Please continue this series because I know that if you can do it so can I.

[@Sanoskesagara]

Do an episode where you try to find a good guild using only the rep your new account has gathered. No using friends, no using your old guild, no using your past accomplisments...

[@tomhackett3395]

Yes! This is what I want to see! It's easy to say "just join a guild" but it's impossible to find a good guild. The game has become a downward spiral because there are no rewards for people helping other players and working together. There's no way to browse for a good guild in game. There should be more of a rating system in game for players and guilds.

[@cokerdeets]

What I did was spend a few months in a shit guild to learn the raids on a normal and heroic level, then I slowly went up as I got more progressed, from a 1/10M NH guild to a 3/10M to a 4/10M to a 6/10M and eventually to a top 100 US guild, I essentially used shittier guilds as stepping stones, and you might say that's pretty toxic but I've left many good friends behind in those guilds, because they were just not willing to give up a small friendship for a leap in progression. I started really PLAYING this game in Nighthold, and we're now at AtBt and I'm probably one of the most polished players in this guild that I thought of as a dream less than a year ago. Obviously I've been really lucky in the networking aspect. I wouldn't even be in my current guild if it wasn't for some ties to the GM of it through a few friends from my previous guild that fell apart in Tomb. It's definitely impossible to join a good guild off the start, so pay your dues and take the time that we've all taken at some point.

[@nhagan001]

has Preach done a video detailing an "outline" of sorts for finding guilds? I know he has Drama Time about GUILDS, but that is more a pretext of "see? this is what you DON'T want your 'potential' guild to do" rather than a "look for this, that, and other things to find a good guild".

[@kevjp5987]

We've had a video on how to find guilds and preach being able to give 85 plus percentile logs he should find a good guild

[@nhagan001]

oh ok. that is good to know. you happen to remember the title by chance?

[@Grasication]

You dropped a lot of wisdom in this video, great one. What you say is true, mostly it comes down to people failing to communicate well (not communicating at all/flaming/feeling insulted when you try to tell them what to do). The Voicechat-Feature they are going to implement in BfA might help a lot with this, from my experience people are friendlier when they are actually talking (probably because it's more personal) than when they are just smashing the keyboard. Of course people will still flame but it still might be helpful to the issue you described. Keep up the good work mate

[@d1o2c3t4o5r]

WoW used to have voicechat as part of the game itself, but they removed it for some reason. I

[@uzukiltd.4133]

Reminds me of an experience with my friends from a few weeks ago - Got a Seat Key for a +12 and my Mythic + friends wanted to do it. The DPS warrior (who's not the best player to begin with) was like "Oh Seat is so easy we got this" Well the key dipped to a 8 or 9 before we finished it. Problem was everyone had only ever done Seat on Heroic, where you can ignore mechanics because we're all ilevel 940+ and just DPS the dungeon down. No one knew the actual mechanics of the fights and no one wanted to learn.

[@BaileyZK]

3 Things! (1 being the most important!!) 1. PLEASE as an extra goal after Curve try and join a Mythic raiding guild, I think that's a huge new player experience thing that you've experienced least. Getting into a guild with no experience to show, getting to a point where you feel your character is ready for Mythic, finding a GOOD guild, finding a guild at a time like now where the raid's been out for quite a while etc etc so many things that can make finding a guild really difficult, so few resources to learn how to find a GOOD guild and yet "get a guild" is the most common advice. Even something as simple as deciding what level of guild to go for can be challenging, if you go for a guild that's downed one mythic boss you have to wonder why in all this time they've only killed one, but then if you aim even slightly higher then your further behind. 2. Another reason people don't know why a group failed or that they were the problem is they don't really have a frame of reference. Like for example (although I don't want to get too specific) if a player gets hit by the scythe 3 times in the second Maw boss you can come out of that not sure whether that's good or bad, like I only got hit by it 3 times! Also when pugging, especially raids, it never really feels like you, it's not all on whether you did good enough to kill it because you're in a raid! So it's very easy to explain everything away by it being the group. "Oh bosses are being One-shot, this is a good group!" And then a different raid "Oh we're wiping, well the group's shit" so rather than the answer to more success being for you to improve as a player it's far easier to just find a better group which is an alternative reason for people being so gear focused. It's not necessarily that they're thinking they'll solve the problem of failed groups by them overgearing it, it's them thinking if I get better gear I'll get into better groups which will THEN solve the problem. 3. A silver-lining to the whole PUG-life is if you want to no-life the game and play non-stop you can. I know you can do that anyway but like personally I don't really like anything in WoW besides PvE like Raids and Mythic+ and you can quite quickly get your farm raid done (which is farm too so doesn't really satisfy) and your +15 for the week and be done really. Not just when farming raiding either, while progressing you're enjoyable raid time is kinda set in stone, if it's 1pm on a weekday and you feel like playing WoW you can't exactly do some progression raiding with your guild all of a sudden. Also times like WoD where there's very little content outside of raiding pugging can artificially extend how long you can spend raiding, which is also quite relevant now because if you start now once you've done heroic your pretty much done because trying to start mythic at this point and find a suitable guild is pretty challenging and can just not feel worth it. I still do think pugging is awful and can't stand it myself but I did enjoy it for this when I first started WoW. Apologies for how this is written and worded, I should have been in bed ages ago and I'm shattered!

[@doktorspock8910]

Listening to horror stories from the past while dragging my rogue through classic tbc.

[@lewdgoblin7683]

In this video you said something about the weak healer and how people are expecting to not having to act on their own to stay alive during tough fights which really hits the spot. I am actually a new (returned after around 9-10 years of not playing) player and get confronted with that behaviour all the time. In addition to me to having to learn my class I also have to react to people which have ilusionary standards. Most people are also not willing to help at with advice, which would be really great and appreciated.

[@Darealic]

The reason I now choose to play mostly solo is because in Legion alone I've been through 8 guilds, all of which disbanded. I just can't be arsed doing it a 9th time.

[@jaklawrence4301]

When looking for a guild, firstly try the oldest guilds on the server. If they've been around for years they probably aren't going anywhere. Don't join a guild that doesn't have some kind of application process or requirements for membership - even if the requirement is only due diligence; bringing your own pots or flasks and showing up on time for calendar events etc. Guilds without structure, much like countries, are doomed to fail.

[@Darealic]

These were all guild with an application process. I always bring my own stuff, but they all die a few bosses into mythic.

[@daniel355273]

That is pretty common with guilds that have the mind-set of 'heroic raiders', they get through the heroic difficulty of the raid, everything is fine and people are enjoying themselves. Then they make their first mistake, they venture into mythic. Mythic can be a horrible experience for a lot of people, the progress comes a lot slower, the learning curve is a ton steeper for every boss, and there is no flex. Trying to raid mythic kills off guilds that aren't prepared for mythic raiding. Hell, even Aggramar Mythic has killed off a ton of guilds this raid tier. My guild took 8 wipes to down Coven. Most bosses before that, 30-70 wipes. Aggramar Mythic? Over 200 wipes. The mythic raids really are tuned for a specific type of people, and the rest won't get any enjoyment out of it.

[@nickrawr77]

As a content creator you should be very proud of this video preach. I have seen links to this video posted in a few places in which i find my typical WoW media and it has really sparked a community conversation. I found it so interesting and compelling i couldn't help but share it with my gaming friends and guildies on our discord. One of your best yet, keep up the good work.

[@SimplyConeh]

This was in my recommendations and I instantly clicked, thinking it was a BfA one...

[@SimplyConeh]

@Brian Most likely, I just enjoyed these videos the last time around and wouldn't mind getting an "update", particularly if he was to try playing alliance, since I've experienced some distinct differences between the two factions on the EU side of things... Luckily there is no lack of content around this time :)

[@BootlessDave]

I mean this really isn't an expansion specific issue. I found this video in Shadowlands and the problem is still very real and apparent once you hit +10.

[@Discreditgaming]

Also, your last video inspired me quite a bit. So thanks to you i have been helping random low geared people through their keys and helping them boost their key some. So thank you for that, it's actually been rather enjoyable :)

[@datbignickdigger]

I've been watching the whole series up until now and have quite enjoyed it. Props for dispelling a lot of the myths and excuses about breaking into end-game, however I can sympathize with some of the criticisms offered. ie: Playing Warlock which is an incredibly highly sought-after class that RLs are more apt to invite regardless of ilvl, because they need one in the group. A class that doesn't bring much if any utility to the group, especially melee, would have a harder time getting invites. My only criticism is that it's a bit disingenuous to compare your experience to that of a totally new player in that you're playing the class at a much higher skill level than most would, and are using add-ons which offer massive, massive, massive quality of life improvements that straight up make you a better player. I think that, especially as an Aff lock, you'd have a more genuine nub experience if you didn't roll with any add-ons at all and just played stock UI as I'm sure the vast majority of newer players do. That said I agree with your sentiments and that doing all the small things (portals, cds on trash, being friendly and engaging, etc) is the #1 way to slowly claw your way up the ladder until you reach the point where you've either found a guild or friends to play with regularly, or your ilvl is high enough that you won't be scrutinized when joining groups. Personally I've just returned from a break and am struggling to get my foot back in the door. I have cutting edge achievement for almost every tier since WOD (and aotc for others) and was farming mythic 15-18's long before raider.io was ever a thing. But since this was before the add-on existed, none of those clears are recorded, and linking multiple CE's and the +15 achievement etc still isn't enough to get into even a 10 or 11 because when they mouse over me they see I have zero raider.io data. Of course this won't dissuade me from playing and just means I need to start low and work my way back up as you've been doing, but it's definitely been a frustrating experience. Looking forward to watching the rest of the series, cheers.

[@rainynight3487]

Great videos and thank you for years of steady quality content! Anyway my little addition this is: I think the reason behind the big chunk of players you describe is the fact that mythic plus rewards doesn't scale indefinitely with key level, so basically if you wanna get higher gear quicker its easier to do loads of +15. The second thing that unfortunately pairs with this in a maleficent way is that far from many people enjoy the challenges of higher keys resulting in high ilvl people at +15 keys which create a ilvl pressure down the mythic plus key levels. I would say the best way would be to allow the rewards to scale slow but indefinitely but with a cap just below the mythic raids. And then the dungeon key level that gives almost mythic raider gear be around 27 keys. That way people can go higher for better rewards which might thin out the huge ilvl chunk.

[@svenservette4197]

Blizz needs to make guilds more central to the experience.

[@AndrewO83]

Another cracking video. As soon as you said the Paladin needed his gear repairing I literally 'facepalmed' and hung my head. Can't wait for the next one Preach!

[@GuiltyKit]

This is why I can't play MMOs anymore. Too many things taking up my leisure time to bother with a guild. And the difference between playing with people you know and random people is staggering. It's not even the same game.

[@raymondwade9867]

This video is so damn necessary. Having cycled through this "puglife" and then into a guild, back in "puglife", then a guild and again now essentially puglife as my current guild is dissolving, this video resonates so damn much. The amount of players who have gear they shouldn't and don't know what to do with it, or even have the agency to know what to do with it is infuriating. I've gone from doing multiple 15+ with my guild on multiple characters to barely scraping one on each, to just doing one on my main. I'll be server transferring soon to find a more populated realm and new guild because i refuse to play in this, but I'm so glad this video has pointed out and highlighted what is the Wow life for what i assume if the vast majority of players. I think blizz is taking a few steps to alleviate the "all or nothing" in BfA m+ with tyrannical and fortified starting from +2 if i believe, but in the same swoop they've said they want ilvl to trump all come the new expansion, so if they problem is ever fixed is yet to be known. KEEP EM COMING PREACH!!

[@DraphEnjoyer]

"Link curve" Roughly translated to this English this means "CARRY ME REEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

[@freakingscared1]

It's great you're putting yourself through this to show both why people complain and what people can and should do to get out of this.

[@DazeJokerz]

hyrja on 13 tyrannical with those types of groups oh boi

[@Metadaxe]

By the time Preach gets to Hyrja, the key will be so low that she won't do any damage at all.

[@madzzzey]

oh.... you can feel the sorrow and pain inn this, but I enjoy the perspective and thoughts on the brackets you encounter. Keep it up!

[@Esinar]

Think Blizz agrees with you that there's an issue with the jump from 9 to 10 keys, which is reflected in the Q&A this week where they said Tyran/Fort will start at +2 in BfA.

[@tinyjazzhands2074]

This^ while I haven't really touched the m+ system there is clearly a problem with the sudden jump in difficulty when you go from a 9 to a 10 and it's great to see that change happening with BfA. It's a small step towards fixing the system but it wouldn't surprise me if the communities will help a lot too

[@AlaLoupeQC]

This is, indeed, a good news. I think people can deal with certain affixes but thrown in either one of those and they can't do it. Sure, some combinations seem more favorable but that doesn't change the fact there are people who can't deal with certain mechanics because they've never seen it... "cough" Servitor on Harbaron "cough"

[@wylander5433]

Uh, i just checked out this series. Thats an awesome study preach. I have to admit i was one the PuG Life players earlie on in Legion and it's one of two reasons why i didn't stick to WoW. Beside the fact that my old guild felt apart cause of some stupid trouble they had while i was on vacation for 2 weeks i came back was guild less and by the end of WoD (the last 2 days before Legion droped). So i started as a lone wolf first out in Legion, thought myself hey we can check out a new guild later on. Well Life hit me, had to take a 4 week brake first raid was open and i missed the start. So i came back, had to do all the Daily, Reputation and Heroic stuff to get my self up and raid ready. Got my self raid ready and tryed to PuG it. Oh boi that went horrible. Not only had i to wait 4-7h to get accepted 2/3 raids were utterly a mess of toxic behavior, I knew i was to new to the party, i prepared myself a bit with some basic encounter knowlage but still my gear was around 10-15 iLvL below the lowest geared player most of the time. I don't say i pulled ahead i was the average but still got i blamed, kicked, harrased and so on. After 3 days of trying to get it done the first 4 bosses i was done with PuG and start trying to find a suitable guild. Problem #2 makes it debute. New Guild Member expectation. Looking threw the forums in search of a Guild and all i see was these hardcore progression attitude in there recruitment requirements. They looking for players with gear way higher then the bare minimum requirment was for the Raid (by a good chunky 30-40 iLvL) and call them self family friendly. Or you have to be owner of some specific archivments. Trying to get into a semi fun guild nowadays is quite hard. The entrance fee is a huge time comitment to the PuG Life that nobody should ever have to commit to. The PuG Life is awfull for Raiding and Mythic+ finding a decent guild that dosen't blow all requierments just to enter there halls is insane. The community outside guilds feels like 90% toxic, anger and selfish 9% of i do my stuff i like and don't care about anything else and 1% nice and good guys and girls but they hide somewhere 99% of the time. So in semi depression of that situation i left WoW, not because i hate the game, but i hated how the community has come so far so deep into that abyss of anti socialism. Thank for reminding me and us what and utterly mess this is at this moment.

[@frikkieviviers8648]

I think they solve this problem by not giving people free gear. I mean if people did not over gear all the content they do before +10, they would have the opportunity to learn the tactics properly.

[@KorakBrosepf]

Honestly I think it just proves we need to go back to a pseudo attunement thing. You cannot join mythic+10 if you haven't done mythic+9 and hit certain benchmarks.

[@Anaphriel]

Neither of those stop the problem of just flat out buying progression (or gear) in game. The OP comment would just reinforce "If you wanna get better faster, you better have money (gold)" and the second still doesn't eliminate carries learning nothing. I don't know what the solution is, but it needs to be more personalized to the player, so it can't be cheesed by being a care bear.

[@KorakBrosepf]

I don't think you can do anything about a player paying for another player(s) to rush them through content? Short of some kind of flag "This person isn't DPSing at the SimCast rates they should be, flag them as a jerk and make sure they can't get a group till they improve at a lower level."

[@Kazuma6696]

Love the video and agree with a lot of what you had to say. Something that you might find positive is that they had discussed adding Tyrannical or Fortified as the first affix you get on each key during the last live Q&A. That way it's more of a gradual build up instead of the wall of learning at 10+.

[@rodoxx1888]

I Was watching hentai BUT preach's video is more important than everything

[@glywenz5526]

atm I have 2 tabs open. Hentai is muted tho.

[@mikeyfisher4256]

Isn't Preach a hentai?

[@adamhelsing6999]

is there a difference between preach and hentai?

[@FriedPlacentaBurger]

Preach is by far my favorite wow youtuber, blowing away anything else I’ve seen except maybe asmonbald for the comedy. This series feels even better then the regular uploads and gives a lot of insight into the “casual” experience. I’m not looking for a raid guild till BFA so this is mostly what I run and it’s pretty accurate. Thanks Preach, and uh me for next mog winner.

[@epeedor4087]

"didn't get a single upgrade" 11:01 literal 20% and 15+ ilvls.......hmmmm

[@knfbnny]

This is some of the best content ive seen on this channel since I subscribed in MoP, and preach still puts this out for us guys even in the face of the youtube adpocolypse .. I love you man!

[@MrScottreed]

Idea for a video series Preach maybe go through each of the mythics and show people how to run them correctly has someone who is trying to get into high mythics and doesnt want to make an ass of myself them sort of videos would be awesome

[@hellim24]

As someone who does high mythic plus... videos only get you so far. You just need experience. Videos only really help with specific skip strats if you don't already know them, and even then they take practice, you're not going to get it right the first time. There are videos out there that have things like this already as well, Preach's forte is not M+ so probably not best to take advice from him.

[@MrScottreed]

Thanks for the reply, who would u recommend to watch for these skip strats and general instance knowledge, has i took a long break from legion and having to relearn the instance is becoming a ballache

[@Snagprophet]

Zach Oneal I guess what people want is "where do I stand during this randomly high skilled boss encounter when the previous one was a DPS check"

[@MrScottreed]

Yeah that is just what im after, as well whats the best way to tank this mob pack, can u line of sight that spell. these sorts of tips would be awesome

[@Snagprophet]

MrScottreed I mean even on some bosses like portal keeper my first time in there someone was saying "groups 2 and 4 go into each portal red green and purple that order at each phase. Stay out of green and tank drag the boss out of purple". That's a very easy simplification for someone that's never done it before. If the information was doled out like that a lot more would want to learn it instead of reading the guide and having no idea what something is because it's referred to by a ridiculous name rather than "bad under you" or "soak the green on garothi"

[@AdamTreier]

This is a REALLY good video and good experiment with the current status of living the lone wolf life (running hard content without a guild), but I think there are some key things that should be brought up. 1) ilvl is not the only reason you are not getting into higher keys. They are looking you up on RaiderIO, the Armory, and/or Warcraftlogs. If you made a new character on your account and they looked you up on RaiderIO and see that this character is an alt of a character that has cleared every dungeon at 18+ and has a score of 3k without a doubt. But a brand new person that has only done 4 dungeons none of them successful above 13 does not instill confidence when building a group for a dungeon you have never even done. 2) You also do not address the fact that they *are* looking you up as the leader of the group, I don't run a keys without checking out everyone in the group and/or having a small conversation to make sure they have good communication skills. I am all about helping people who are not prepared but if you have no history of running the content at close to the difficultly we are attempting I would want you to join my discord so we can talk about strategy and tactics in real time. 3) The time gated gear rewards for running content lower than what you should receive is to allow people to progress farther than they have on a slower curve than better players. For example I raid with 3 guild groups, 1 of which has players that are handicapped (liver disease, cancer, age) and we make less progress due to lack of damage. With the gear they get from the core skilled players helping them get through higher level keys we can gradually get down raid bosses we previously couldn't (We just got Heroic High Command down last week). So I can totally understand why Blizzard is doing that. It makes the life of a lone wolf harder but I think they are trying to cater to the social aspect of the game.

[@Mochachocakon]

LINK CURVE

[@snexy6]

Checking profile for multiclear

[@GermanHDplay97]

How else can you, atleast be a little bit sure that the guy you inviting isn't just going to waste your time.

[@Mushezable]

[Ahead of the Curve: Xavius]

[@Mochachocakon]

Most people who's only word to me is their Ahead of the Curve typically don't understand how Argus works and will just not run with bombs or they won't stack for phase 1, having Curve means absolutely nothing about your ability to understand the game, you could have just gotten curve while face down on the floor dead for all I know.

[@kloaf1131]

achievements are a terrible indicator of any kind of performance metric.

[@trm90]

Thanks for doing this experiment Preach, this is exactly the experience a lot of us have, and highlights just how important it is to *find a guild* once you start hitting more challenging PvE content. I remember when I first joined a guild and started pushing keys and doing mythic raids, I felt really unconfident -- I felt like I wasn't a good enough player to carry pug raids or dungeon groups, and therefore I probably wasn't cut out for mythic/high m+. Over time, I realised that playing in a guild group allowed me to flex my muscles and learn a lot more, and eventually I became a core part of my raid teams.

[@sacer666]

"why not just play something else" Exactly my thought 1 week ago... so I ended my subscription :D

[@drewfyre7693]

The thing with the ilvl/gear is something that comes from the "old" days of wow. Because up until (and including) cataclysm gear was an indication of a player's skill. Because at the time there was no warforging/titanforging, no world quests. Your only source of high item lvl gear was doing high level bosses in raids. So naturally during those expansions if you had a high ilvl it means you also had the knowledge about most bosses, not necessarily that you were a skilled player by yourself but skilled enough to kill this boss with a group of people. But nowadays whith lfr, world quests, titanforging or even ilvl boost through legendaries the ilvl just doesn't have that same indication as it use to before. But the player base still didnt let go of their routine behaviour of checking for ilvl, because as we all probably know old habits die hard. So while it might be true to say that "it isn't Blizzard decided" that ilvl has become the standard to invite/decline people, Blizzard surely is adding on to that standard or rather "keeping it alive" by the way they make gear available to the player nowadays.

[@HOBOTw1tcH]

all i can say Preach is welcome to the real WoW. you have been sheltered for too long. this is WoW for 75% of people. Yes guilds do help but even then most heroic raiding guilds cant handle keys over 15

[@roehoved]

I've tried desperately to complete a +15 on time this week, but I've given up. I like playing as a healer and I think I'm reasonably skilled, but the doubt is always there. Did the run fail because I failed as a healer, or did they kill themselves?

[@Wanglord]

That's extremely easy to find out by just looking at Details/Skada to be fair.

[@jaklawrence4301]

The pug life is something you choose for yourself man. Every server has good guilds on it, find them; get in them and go. If your guildies don't know, teach them. If you don't know, let them teach you. It's a team game, find friends and play with them - it's literally the only way to enjoy this game and not be constantly frustrated.

[@LoneYote1]

I forgot all the best guilds are constantly on the lookout for low geared people that DON'T know the encounters..... oh wait!

[@josemanuelrau8010]

If you have the doubt, then it's your fault too. You should know what to do in a dungeon if you want to progress further. Like people dying at Nelt Lair with the avalanche mobs in fortified weeks for no moving, tanks not managing properly pelters (running away with the aggro, so they don't cast disc on the other members). You could easily do a +15 with 945 in time, it's just people lacking the knowledge of stuff and keep getting arrogant just because they think that their overgeared characters will play by themselves.

[@boomy8159]

I suffered from all of this for a long time, as a returning player i couldnt get past any of this even if i joined a guild they were doing mythic progression. Couldnt even get into a Antorus Heroic without Curve and no one knew how to get past Coven. Eventually i made my own guild for people like me, advertising for people like me. Found some really nice officers and have 35+ very active players already within 4 weeks. We help each other gear up, we do antorus normal runs, we are starting heroic next week with our raiding team. It has come so far in only a few weeks and the game is already so much better and more fun. If you haven't found a guild do look for one (this is for anyone in this situation) find a nice community that you can enjoy, the game is so much better for me as a gm. My guild is always recruiting and so are many other guilds. Go look for one, it opens so many more doors than you know :)

[@BPN25]

33:32 BIg papa preach says if your playing this game in a world of guildless mythic keystone grinding stop

[@Sleistad]

Having watched this series I want to give you a hug

[@TehFiishy]

Romero? For a belf female? m8 what.?

[@benderbg]

Romero is a last name.

[@barkil12345]

It's really good to see, that Preach talks about and notices the problem in the 10/11 difficulty jump - right as Blizzard said they noticed and plan on changing the system because of that. ( Recent Q&A: "The team is looking at bringing Tyrannical and Fortified down to the base level, with new Affixes at Mythic 10." Great work as always - keep it up

[@andrewpomar1581]

listen, I shouldn't need to move for kin'garoth's ruiner as a dps because it is a basic healer mechanic :P (some people are that stupid)

[@kallmannkallmann]

A few Times other dps told me to stop doing The tactics proper becuse The healer shoud be able to deal with it.

[@Silirion]

Thanks for your words Mike. Love what you said, "Do the thing that helps!" Such a great attitude!

[@sohkaswifteagle2604]

Finding a guild? you say that like if it was easy. Please try to find a guild with your new account. Obviously, do not say that you are Preach, do not use your log from your mage etc... I would LOVE to see how "easy" it is to get in a GOOD mythic raiding guild. Yes it's easy to enter a heroic guild doing heroic, killing the first 2-3 boss then wiping all night long Yes it's easy to join the mythic guild that is building up, and never reach the 20 players attendance require for raid night But joining a mythic raiding guild who manage to have there core player on time every raiding night, and who are actually able to progress, yes when you meet a new boss you wipe, 10-20 time learn the fight and kill it (as you get to the harder boss wipe 50-70 time, and the final boss 100-200 time maybe) but there should be progression. I consider myself skilled player, maybe not Method good (since I'm not sponsored and I cannot play 8 hours per day) but when I watch your video on how to play I agree with most of what you say and I already do it. I am curerntly a solo player since my RL friend, for them, heroic raid is the highest they'll ever do (and higher they are interested in) because they don't even care about getting better, they just play for the world and that is fine for them but I want to do mythic raiding, I want to be challenged. They are not interested in getting UI and stuff... So when I go and try to join a good guild, they ask my achievement... I have none since I never had the chance to go and do mythics raiding when the content is still relevant. They ask me my item score, I'm pretty unlucky, even my weekly chest that I try very hard to have my mythic+15 every week, I got a chest piece 10 weeks in a row and I were my tiers set chest piece so I cannot use that chest piece. The only titanforge I get are pieces of gear I cannot wear (in my legendary or tier piece slots) Then they want a screenshot of my UI, ok that one is easy, I have a clean UI using proper add-on They ask me my computer specs, that once again I'm good with this, I have a great powerful computer way better then what WoW require. Then they want my logs, I'm not in a guild so no one ever did a log, yes I could do the log myself, but I log what? how I destroy the pug DPS in heroic raid... as a tank? How I am the first to die even with cooldown active because the healer forgot he was suppose to heal me... the tank? Please Preach I would be very curious to see how your 935 warlocks with no achievement and no raiding experience can enter a GOOD mythic raiding guild I quit the game soon after ToS came out because I was bored of the pug world and the impossibility to enter a GOOD mythic raiding guild. Maybe if you can teach me some trick on how to join a good mythic guild without having a KZbin channel it could revive my flame of WoW and bring me back in time for BFA.

[@misterniskers]

Don't neglect the logs! Look at it from the guild's perspective - it takes a lot of effort to onboard a new player into a set roster. They need to know they aren't wasting their time. Logs can tell a lot. When we analyze new recruits, we take a deep dive into their logs...we don't just look at the DPS bars on the first view and nod our heads knowingly. For a tank, we can look at things like your active mitigation uptime, when you use your cooldowns, how many stacks you and the other tank took of abilities, how much damage you took from abilities, how many globals you had free, how many procs you wasted, etc...

[@KitKatNisa]

You're clearly already of the mindset that's it's impossible, and will probably come up with an excuse for anything people suggest

[@SugoiAishiOniichan]

I love this series, found it very late. You started with so much optimism and it's all tumbles down here.

[@oriagruber]

How would joining a guild solve this? I'm in a guild. When I ask if anyone wants to do m+ I get what I always get - silence. Hardly anyone talks at all in guild chats / group chats anymore. Or there are clicks of 5 best friends who would never play with anyone who isnt 3k mythic score.

[@SalvLav]

By 'guild' he means active raid guild.

[@Elbuarto]

Join a different guild. I joined a social guild that regularly recruits random people and kicks inactive ones. We clear HC Antorus at least twice a week and normal more than that, if there are enough people willing to come. There's always enough people to find for a m+ run.

[@tidusrodriguez5096]

Hate to break it to you mate, but you've joined a social guild or trade chat guild. That isn't going to help you.

[@psihopats666]

Then its shit guild. Last 2 guilds ive been in would have no problem doing dungeons with someone not so geared/experienced.

[@misterniskers]

Sounds like a meh guild, but it could also be that you are outside the social interactions of the guild. I agree that hardly anyone talks in guild chats anymore. I find that the best way to get into groups in guilds is to socialize with the players that are active. Is there a discord or other voice chat that they use? Join the voice chat. Make friends. Once people see you as a person and not just some random guild-person, they will be more willing to seek you out when forming groups. It helps immensely if you are not a jerk and play well, or are actively trying to learn to play well. If all that doesn't work in your guild, slum it on your realm's WoW forum and try to find a new guild. The good ones are ALWAYS recruiting.

[@Trickytickler]

Hey, Preach! I really like this project and i feel you illuminate a lot of the issues the community is facing very nicely. You seem like a genuine bloke and i could use your input. I am a returning player to WoW (i played on/off during WoD but it was never anything serious). Last time i properly played was during MoP. I didn't like WoD as an expac so i quit and i returned to WoW relatively late in Legions lifespan. I really like the expac but other players and the community as a whole scares me now. I am far behind on gear and knowledge, and i am okay with that. I loathe the word "toxic" as i feel it has been overused, but that is the way i veiw most of the players i encounter. It doesn't even remotely resemble the community i remember. I feel kind of intimidated by the sheer negativity and the nonsensical attitude a lot of player have. I improve and i practice my class and i keep pulling higher numbers in m+ dungeons. It just seems that for every nice person who are up for a chat i meet 30 horrible and sad people. How do you deal with it? I am seriously just considering leveling up a few alts and stuff to kill some time before BfA and start over fresh with the new expac.

[@Mianless]

Took an 8 month break from the game, 930 ilvl. Joined a Normal AtBT run, top DPS every fight...... There are simply too many bad players now.

[@Orcawhale1]

They were always there, you just weren't exposed to them.

[@Mianless]

They were given gear easily and don't know how to play, or what mechanics are. That's why they're so prominent now.

[@Anaphriel]

The gear gifts have been prevalent for a lot longer than 8 months. The 110 boosts however are causing an issue...just like they did at the end of WoD. These problems are nothing new.

[@Mianless]

The 8 month thing is "I haven't played in 8 months, first day resubbing without getting ANY new gear, still topping meters against those that have been playing during that time"

[@ZeroKOR1]

The larger the community the worse the player base. That is a fact

[@CCSpraydoodle]

Your positivity in these situations is honestly something I strive for. The pug world is harsh and grimey but there are also nice people suffering as well in there. Here is to breaking the cycle of salt and ignorance of mechanics!

[@lostmarimo]

To be fair preach, your skill of this game is so insanely better than us peasants, that perhaps you are a little blinded of what actual time it takes to learn stuff. You are so deep in it that you can bypass all the basics on all classes/all specs. Like how a pro in a sport lets say, can't help total newbies because they have forgotten the first thoughts of how things work. To them it's completely different because it's muscle memory etc. I am not saying that what you say is wrong. People should focus on tacts. But for me to all of a sudden learn all the tacts for all the bosses in all the mythics and all the new tacts that come with higher plusses etc, is just insane. from my standpoint. Again i do not expect to get carried because i don't know any thing and the right thing for me to do is learn all this stuff. But it's fucking daunting my man. And add to that, barely any guildies want to do lower than 10 these days, at least in stark. so it is the pug world that's available. Which is a shame.

[@MInquisition]

The problem is that the game's learning curve is basically nonexistent. It just throws you into an environment where suddenly, if you weren't analytical of the content you were blowing through, you're gonna sink. But also, obligatory "getting good isn't hard if you think at all" comment

[@joshman5217]

This right here is the truth. Just got back into WoW after 4 years. Its taken a good 30 days to just relearn the game and figure out how different things are now. I TRY to be a good and smart player but it takes time to learn the mechanics again. and then trying to keep DPS up too? that just takes time.

[@hellim24]

He isn't blind to what you're saying, in fact he points out that very thing when talking about the sudden hikes in difficulty.

[@Zasaramel]

If you haven't been playing at all this expansion until the Antorus raid came out, then I could understand how learning what happens in each mythic+ dungeon could feel so daunting. But if you've been playing regularly throughout the expansion then there is little excuse to not have the majority of it down by now. Let's say you are a new player that just came into the game, you have zero friends and are still looking for a guild or just joined the first community guild you could find where its essentially not helping you. In this situation you should be focusing on finding a guild that is willing to help new players and where you are more likely to make friends. Don't worry so much on figuring out the ins and outs of how everything in Legion works because in a few months its all gonna be irrelevant anyways. Set yourself for a proper run through the game next expansion.

[@lostmarimo]

I did learn all the tacts and whatnot in the begining of the exp. but then i didnt play for a few months and when i did start i didnt do m+ so i kinda forgot them all.

[@ariacardwell1033]

Thank you, Preach, for putting in the time and effort to test these things out - we appreciate you! ...Although the PTSD shellshocked look in your eyes is heartbreaking.

[@KronosSupreme]

Many people like myself play casually and only if we get time to play we play. Joining a guild and being tied to some raid schedule is beyond what we can do. This is a game not a job for 95% of us. We don't want people relying on us being there when we have other shit to do in our lives many times. I was in a Mythic Raiding guild in the beginning of the expansion excited to get back into WoW. I quickly realized I was neglecting my family and other activities spending hours of my time with these random people on the internet. I'm lucky if I can get an hour a day to play. I can't even begin to think spending hours. This is the life you don't understand Preach. I mostly spend my time just doing mage tower now. I can jump in any time, do attempts, and leave when when I want. I can't do that in a raiding environment.

[@KronosSupreme]

As an update I decided to do mythics again after this video on two alts. Both failed to finish in time. First because tank DC. and because Pally healer DC and was terrible and she was the most geared person there.

[@darksamus105]

I started playing WoW shortly before the Dungeon Finder tool was added. From then until the beginning of Legion, I had thought that item level was everything, and I couldn't fathom how other people were so much better than me. Now, at the end if Legion, after finally figuring it all out, I'm proud of how far I've come. This series of videos depicting nightmare scenarios used to be my reality, save for the Mythic +. I, however, was unfortunate enough to have no friends that played WoW, and nobody to teach me right from wrong. It had taken me until the midpoint of Emerald Nightmare to realize that item level was not what mattered, but rather the stats on said gear COMBINED with your knowledge and understanding of your class. Now, as Legion comes to a close, I clear Heroic Antorus every week and I'm setting my sights on Mythic raiding. The road is long and hard if you have to go it alone.

[@incipio7011]

I was the monk in the first dungeon you showed. I don't want to sound like a douche here, but alot of what you showed/said in the video was very out of context, and in some cases not true at all. You also skipped out the part where you said "Just use a defensive, because the healer are obviously not going to dispell" or something along those lines. You also took out the part that showed that we ACTUALLY DID USE OUR CDS on 50%. Lastly, we did not give ANY advice to the healer other than telling him to dispell. Any comment on that?

[@cashnelson2306]

oh shitttttt

[@yoshiguy123]

Well we can see one of you typing the heals too low, so.....?

[@Samualwallow]

oh shiiiieet

[@Relbl]

I saw Preach eat just about every Cosmic Scythe on his MoS runs too... he talks a big game but honestly he's expecting a carry and is fuckin up a lot too. Too bad he has so many fanbois that just can't see through it

[@handro33]

I think this is me. I'm just getting to 923 on my affliction lock and tried doing a +7 Vault this morning. We wiped on several tries and finally a more experienced player came up with a method to destroy the boss very quickly. I'm not a great player. Could I be better absolutely. I don't spend enough time learning more of the mechanics. I'm usually the one that dies more (not always) but I do learn a lot from it. I tried Argus LFR 25 times before getting in a group that defeated it. By the end of that I understood what to do very clearly and was actually upping my DPS a lot. It was extremely frustrating process but I did get it down. I'm looking forward to trying on a Normal now. I appreciate the video series (this one especially) because I've identified where I can really improve. I often go back to watch your other DPS/tanking videos for the tips to get more out of my play. I just need to spend more time researching the dungeon/raid mechanics more.

[@charlesvincent4127]

A few things here Preacher. 1) I think your head is in the right place but you've gone off the rails. 2) Guild runs aren't pugs they aren't equivalent. 3) You're not doing justice to real new players who have no idea about macros or addon's or UI tweaks and they likely wouldn't even use keybindings a whole lot as you highlighted in your get better for Xmas series(which I enjoyed despite my stated disagreements with some of the things you claimed there). 4) Sorry but welcome to pug life where people either don't ask because other players shit on them rather than help them or people just don't listen. Believe me its a crap shoot to ask for advice so you can help the group succeed. 5) This video series highlights why I stay away from groups And do my best to gear toons from world quests( I have 13 lvl 110 toons at ilvl 880+ and my main is 935 all mostly from world quest gear and some pug lfr's and when i say pug i mean the lfr raid finder not the people starting a group and choosing who to let in. Anyway good on you for at least trying Steilgarcv; pally saving lives since July 05

[@noxelohim]

Really great video preach. It was thought provoking and the way you explained it made a lot of sense. It didn't sound like you were dumping on anyone or anything, just getting at the root of the problems. Where people a lot of times expect the gear to do the work for them, but until they actually take the time to learn more aspects of their characters or encounter mechanics, they as a player can't truly improve, so the game won't improve for them either. Thanks for sharing

[@salaiio]

I couldn't agree more and this is the actual first comment I make on KZbin ever. This has crushed the fun out of this game for a long time. I just get sad looking at people with high ilvl not knowing how to ever do their normal rotation. Back in TBC when someone wore black temple or sunwell gear, you knew that person knew their class. Some good times....

[@ioannisd00]

This video offers more insight into the state of the game than I've seen in a long time. I have come to the same conclusion although not expressed nearly as succinctly. Thank you for taking the time to do this social experiment and here's to hoping that the Devs are paying attention and taking notes.

[@adversatius5116]

At the start i wasnt that hyped about this project but since its launched im really amazed! Really interesting to watch, keep it up and keep your sanity preach ;)

[@duvogorgars7070]

Love this video series Preach! I have played for over 13 years NA and recently made an account on EU to play with gaming friends. I now know the pain of having absolutely nothing and trying to PUG up. Luckily I can tank so I can numb some of the pain, but the toxicity of PUGing and LFR is awful. Oddly, even though EU is percieved as the more skilled player base at high end, the average EU player from my experience is worse than the average NA player.

[@kripes8]

What you talk about in this video is exactly the reason I can't wait for classic. Like you said with Xavius mechanics. There is no way around the difficulty in much of vanilla. You either figure it out or you're done. Players need to be incredibly geared to even sort of ignore dungeon mechanics and even then it hurts. When players don't have to give a shit about 90% of the game and then all of a sudden they do.... Everything falls apart. WoW's current PvE environment does the opposite of teach people. Which is also why we have these super tight guild communities. I genuinely do not want to play with someone who I don't know. Which is sad, I used to love getting to know new people. 1 week on Elysium I made 13 good friends running dungeons and doing quests. I have made 1 new friend on retail in the last year. Sad to see.

[@cgil98]

Bless your soul Preach, taking one for the team with this challenge.

[@dudugama86]

This is one of the best wow videos that i have ever seen, good job guys, keep it up!

[@Mrnatox]

I luv the vids Preach, and I couldn't agree more with your point @ 34:55. However, there is a catch with this advice. There are SO SO many cesspool guilds that you should also add a site/forum that would be helpfull. Cause sadly, the casual/average gamer will still remain in this part of the game for a longer time, and sometimes even worse.

[@dariominiello9934]

Also you should consider making a guide with all the tricks for mythic plus, stuff like metamorph before starting, getting resources before starting, sephuz uses, burst sets, kiting mobs with slows so they don't cast, what you can line of sight or outrange. Most stuff i honestly only saw in method videos and only noticed after analizing. This stuff isn't written anywhere

[@anthonyarcoleo]

I'm really enjoying this series Preach. I can't wait to see where your next adventure takes you. It sucks that you hit a wall here, but the way you analyze what you have learned and present it to everyone is excellent. It becomes so much more apparent that there are flaws in the way wow brings in new players, and if no one points then out it will never get better. I also feels like your making a more comprehensive guide to those who are just getting started. I give you an A for effort.

[@GrahamPickup57]

Really interesting series on vids, helping me understand what I need to do to become a better player. Thanks.

[@twofriarsandafool]

You are so right, and those who do want to learn more aren't incentivized for doing it, they are encouraged to keep their head down. So many times I seem to see more people leave in a +12 when someone else tries to help teach (and not in some rude way).

[@OoNVGoO]

I came back to legion quite late last November and basically embarked on something similiar to preach. I didn't have time to raid with an organised guild so set goals of a) playing a few new classes b) playing a new role, I chose healing and c) Getting Keystone Master, Curve from pugging in keystone gear and finally pushing as far as I could into mplus. I rolled a shaman, a new class for me and enjoyed ele and resto immensely during the levelling process. I hit 110 and jumped immediately into mplus at around 850 ilvl in resto spec. 0-10 was pretty doable, I always played safe and learned quickly (with the help of a grievous week) as I genuinely enjoyed the spec. With more gear and experience 11-12 was also pretty easy with most groups. Then came the 'wall'. I kid you not but over 1 mil hps was simply not enough for grievous tyrannical moroes 13, it felt absolutely impossible at the time and forced me to go back to basics and improve my healing. I was still enjoying the game however, it was a real challenge for me at the time. Then boom I started pushing only my own keys, continually playing safe and putting together optimised groups. At 940 ilvl I 2 chested a lower kara 15 after an evening of a few successful pushes. Then came the interesting part, post 15 the entire landscape of players changed. It's as if post 15 you get out of the 'pack' preach describes and if you work at it you'll be clearing 17's,18's,19's and 20's with ease all the way into one shot land. All I can say is I understand completely where preach was coming from about how the game must feel to a newer player learning. The 'wall' must seem insurmountable and requires in my opinion three things to get over. 1. An open attitude towards continually learning and enjoying the game. 2. Enough knowledge of the game to play adequately and finally 3. A healthy respect for constructive criticism while at the same time protecting yourself from negative players who have found themselves defeated by the wall. It's sad to see things this way and I wish the game incentivized players to learn rather than simply accumulate gear. One of my to date favourite experiences in an MMO was learning how to play Final Fantasy 14 ARR, a game which guided you through a challenging but rewarding attunement process until it's 'wall', which in my opinion was known only as Titan HM. Most FF14 players will laugh at that but this really was the wall for most players. The dungeon content and the wall that was pugging titan hm forced me to learn to play my class properly and I conquered it. I was then well on my way to defeating the hardest content in the game and was raiding coil and the extreme modes in no time. The experience of that was what really mattered to me however.

[@MuggsisGune]

As someone who was an active raider during BC and WotLK, I fell into a similar trap during WoD and had to actively avoid it during Legion. The main cause was that I tried to be a casual, solo player, and the game no longer had the long gauntlet-style requirements to get into content. The result was me not feeling any need to learn my class changes, read dungeon or raid guides, or learn new PvE mechanics in general because the only requirement to access the content is iLvl. When you only have that 1-2 hours a day to play the game, then this is a very easy trap to fall into. Previous expansions felt like you were building up for the express purpose of running dungeons and raids. The story quests literally led you to the entrance of the dungeon with a quest giver telling you to find a group before going inside. Enemies around the dungeon and unique quest mobs had minor (but still punishing) versions of the boss's mechanics that could not be ignored. The unfortunate reality in Legion is that there are very few moments where players can even be killed prior to mythic dungeons. Other than accidentally wandering into a higher level zone or pulling a tougher elite mob, I could have leveled several of my classes from 100-110 without even having defensive CDs on the action bar. Until that changes, I can't see the situation improving in the slightest.