Frigate Duels of the War of 1812 - USS President vs HMS Endymion (and friends)

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Today we take a look at the sixth true frigate duel of the War of 1812 (and last while the war was actually still going!), with one more to come!
00:00:00 - Intro
00:01:55 - President vs Endymion
Episode 1 (Constitution vs Guerriere) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
Episode 2 (United States vs Macedonian) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
Episode 3 (Constitution vs Java) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
Episode 4 (Chesapeake vs Shannon) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
Episode 5 (Essex vs Phoebe & Cherub) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
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[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@bkjeong4302]

How practical would USS Pennsylvania (the first-rate) have been if the threats she’d been built against had materialized?

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

you mention that the East India Company's China Convoys would have a devastating impact on the British Economy if they were attacked, were these convoy's a thing in the American Revolution and had the Americans or their Allies in France and Spain managed to deliver such a blow?

[@kkupsky6321]

Aw man. 300 dry docks and almost 500k. Great journey it’s been mate. I dunno what I’d do if I didn’t hear the dry dock song on Sunday. Please talk about drumming signals and what role musicians played on ships. I mean besides music. I hope you’ve got more references. Were there really galley drummers making the pace and how were the signals used before gunpowder? Were horns ever more effective than flags? I’ll give you whatever if it’s like 20 quid. if you elaborate. It’ll be in American quarters and dimes.

[@hughboyd2904]

Video on the HMAS Alarm please! First ship fitted with copper sheathing on the hull - to deter shipworm, but then the other consequences of a metallic hull on a wooden vessel. Surely lots of material for an engineer here.

[@alexcheng1560]

Had steam engine been invented 200years later, how would sails and rigging have evolved on warships?

[@littlecoldhands]

"Pomone as it turned out actually had a pretty poor aim." Getting roasted 300 years later. Lol

[@michaelimbesi2314]

The storm that dismasted President and Endymion after the battle wouldn’t have been a hurricane, they don’t show up in January. It was likely a Nor’easter, which is a type of extra-tropical cyclone common on the US East Coast. They’re infamous for heavy snow and strong winds, typically out of the northeast (hence the name Nor’easter).

[@jaysonlima7196]

With the bonus that they can and often do have winds up to and exceeding hurricane force...

[@berges104]

Always a good way to start a fight. "You won only because we had 1 gun and no ammo"

[@notshapedforsportivetricks2912]

I like the way in which the 3D models were used. They really help viewers to understand how the action went.

[@kkupsky6321]

Aw man. 300 dry docks and almost 500k. Great journey it’s been mate. I dunno what I’d do if I didn’t hear the dry dock song on Sunday. Please talk about drumming signals and what role musicians played on ships. I mean besides music. I hope you’ve got more references.

[@dougfoust117]

The spirt of Decatur captains every AI ship in UA Age of Sail.

[@tscream80]

Ah, Decatur, engaging in that oldest of Naval traditions; covering his ass. ;)

[@GrouchierBear]

I seem to recall reading that just after the battle Decatur was convinced his career was over, as the only captain to lose a heavy frigate to the British during the war. So this desire to justify the loss anyway he could isn't that surprising.

[@rhekman]

Can we all agree the Brits really know how to name ships?

[@michimatsch5862]

Their names are amazing. I always name my Stellaris star ship classes after British ships.

[@rhekman]

@@michimatsch5862 US at least stepped up in the Dreadnought era with cities, states, battle names, etc. for capital ships. But c'mon -- literally "Dreadnought", "Warspite", "Vanguard". Let's go.

[@terrylong8894]

@@michimatsch5862Yes we can. Star Trek stole a lot of names from British warships.

[@Wolfeson28]

@@terrylong8894 Star Trek honestly did a pretty good job of cameoing a selection of some of the best ship names from navies around the world.

[@MrEsphoenix]

I mean, well fought, but faking a surrender is pretty low. Not so much because of the lives you're risking at the time, but because it could mean future surrenders aren't accepted as you've lost trust. So as a captain you're gambling much more than your own life for the sake of your ego.

[@ralphe5842]

In modern war there really isn’t any such a thing of capturing a prize you do what ever it takes to destroy your enemy to the point of not bothering to pick up survivors. back in this time it was more of a game particularly when it came to the large empires as many sailed to make money through prize money. The United States wasn’t an empire so we’re less likely to play this game it was survival so anything a captain does is fine.

[@kenashimame]

Technically, faking a surrender is a war crime

[@MrEsphoenix]

@@ralphe5842 Modern warfare for the still has the rules of war with consequences if you break them. And bollocks. Plenty of other American captains followed the rules of war and honour. America wasn't exempt from morality just because some Americans think they’re the chosen people and somehow special. This isn't even a criticism of America. It's a captain who put his own ego above the lives and safety of the people entrusting in his command.

[@samsmith2635]

@@MrEsphoenix hahah cute story, I see conflict all over the world my entire life, very very very rarely is anyone held to account

[@MrEsphoenix]

@@samsmith2635 Then educate yourself. Trials and consequences for breaking the rules of law have been a thing for centuries.

[@Chezzers.]

Love the clean 3D models Drach

[@johnshepherd9676]

I don't think you can call President v Endymion a true single ship engagement. The close proximity of the other ships in the British squadron dictated Decator's tactics. His only chance to escape was to try to dismast the Endynion. If Decator chose to go broadside to broadside he probably would have won the fight because he had the more robust ship but as Drach points out it would have allowed the other British frigates to join the engagement which was losing proposition for Decator.

[@harryberning3621]

Yeah it's very much a case of uss president tried to run and failed. It was just unfortunate or good planing that the Endymion was part of that squadron

[@michaelporzio7384]

Decatur: "I'm going to surrender, right or wrong". also Decatur, "on the other hand..." Good show Drach! although it pains me to see the Yanks lose another one!

[@johnfisher9692]

Considering the American Captains dirty tactics in trying to run after he surrendered I'd say many people would have called his dishonorable or perhaps even oath breaker. a true insult in that period. Or as the British might say "Not a Gentleman"

[@phillee2814]

Most ungentlemanly, and thus good reason to discount his later claims as being those of a mere scoundrel.

[@nathanhubler]

As an American, I apologize for my countryman’s poor treatment of your officers’ honor. Trying to sneak off after a surrender then claiming that battle casualties happened post surrender is poor conduct. I was hoping that this second to last battle would be a win for us. I would take a loss, because it happens, but a loss with a sore loser captain is the worst.

[@frankgulla2335]

Drach, what a great tale of battle. Americas tend to give short shrift to those battles we lost (since we were outnumbered) and focus on the victories, even when we had the upper hand. Great visuals also.

[@simonolsen9995]

Those TTLP Productions renders, combined with Drach's usual superb storytelling, are captivating. I'd love to see some more of the classic tactical naval engagements revisited in this format.

[@davidlavigne207]

While I think that Captain Decatur did all he could do to make good his escape, his only real option was to disable Endymion, with no complete guarantee that he would still elude the other ships in the squadron, I truly believe that Captain Hope and his crew performed brilliantly. All these claims of so called crippling damages made in the aftermath was nothing more the Decatur conducting a bit of "damage control" too his reputation IMHO. The shenanigans with the fleeing after surrendering only to surrender again was not worthy of an officer and a gentleman of that era. As an American I am a bit ashamed. I also learned that the British policy of not engaging the big American Frigates solo, and with purpose built Frigates of there own, was the right course. It is something of a consolation that America did win the war despite its setbacks. Still it must be said "Well done Endymion!"

[@oliver8928]

Many British historiographers are likewise consoled that Britain did win the war despite many setbacks as well..

[@davidlavigne207]

@@oliver8928 Ah...Touche' Do they now? Very witty. Cheers.

[@oliver8928]

@davidlavigne207 Naturally. In a war where lots of things happened over many years and nothing really changed, and with so many competing aims and interests on both sides of the atlantic it's been oh so easy to define success or failure however you want to prove whatever you want 😉

[@davidlavigne207]

@@oliver8928 Perhaps an early version of "spin" I suppose? Very good points Sir. Thank you for giving me a different perspective.

[@littlecoldhands]

Considering that one of the American goals was to conquer Canada, I'm curious how they spin this one as a win. ALL American ships, merchant and military, were also blockaded in port, essentially destroying the economy. As an Asian viewing this conflict from the outside, this was was a clear British victory.

[@silvanski]

Excellent series about naval action during the 1812 war

[@SwankySpitfire]

30:06 British: “Oh we thought you surrendered!” Decatur: “My surrender was… greatly exaggerated.”

[@Wolfeson28]

"My pre-combat damage was...greatly exaggerated."

[@65gtotrips]

Drach proves that one absolutely does not need to use AI voiceover for video production.

[@Eloraurora]

I do wonder if he's mentioned any special voice-maintenance techniques (somewhere in the many hours of dry docks.) I'm sure the understated delivery helps, but he's still talking for hours on end.

[@V.B.Squire]

HMS Endymion is the subject of my pavourite print "A Gallant rescue"

[@thisrandomguy5229]

I was awake early enough to catch an upload on time! Always great to see these videos

[@WTFoolproof]

wow, thanks for the information. turns out that american public education system kept this story under the radar even though I live not far from a town named for Decatur (of about 10,000 people). Probably due to what sounds like some pretty sketchy honor. His death in a duel with James Barron from the chesapeake/leopard event shows that he did indeed find out after years and years of f'n about. That duel was a win/win with it only being unfortunate that they did not end each other.

[@Blackened30]

It is a great story. I'm not surprised it isn't taught, the vast majority of battles aren't covered unless they were pivotal in some way. I think the entire War of 1812 got about a half hour's mention during my 12 years of public school. School glosses over many things, its up to the individual to look into the things that interest them.

[@WTFoolproof]

@@Blackened30 I have seen better coverage in school materials from before the great war and again in the 1930s. it kinda shows the pre-propaganda efforts when they didn't know for certain that we would be allies of england. Sometimes great britain was a bad guy and sometimes it was taught the other way around. lighting the capital and "shanghi on the high seas" may have been a big misunderstandig. after all, the money the US pumps into europe has occasionally caused problems, lol. /looks at napoleon.

[@leeanthony126]

Thank you admiral drach have a good weekend sir ❤

[@dublin4570]

Really enjoyed the graphics. Made it very easy to follow through the whole engagement. Well done

[@mountainboardwales]

Great video as always, loved the grafics. made the action and tactics really easy to follow.

[@JoeyOnly]

Please make as much as you can on the War of 1812! Love these so much!

[@Jimmy_CV]

You have been a treasure trove of naval information. You deserve the subs for sure.

[@chiseldrock]

Gratz on half a mill!!!

[@nonow1353]

I sailed on a recreation war of 1812 topsail ketch for 2 1/2 years doing tall ship events and re-enactments. We sailed up the st Lawrence into the lakes, did a battle of lake Champlain event. Sailed around firing our 6 lbers drinking rum and causing mischief wherever possible while providing living history to the public. Captain Bergman (rest his salty soul) would have loved this so much Thanks Drach

[@TheJustinmck]

Love the new graphics. Way easier to follow the battle.

[@caelestigladii]

After all the frigate duels, I know it’s only a matter of time before this shows up. The one frigate duel the United States don’t want known at the time, seeing as a United States class was defeated in single* combat by a similar sized vessel. All other duels won by a United States class were against much smaller vessels, and even then they got shredded. Note the asterisk. It wasn’t really a “fair” fight as the President was already slightly damaged before the fight, and the presence of Endymion’s squadron meant President was constraint to certain tactics. They had plenty of time though. If President won they had plenty of time to make a lot of repairs and sail away before the squadron arrives.

[@harryberning3621]

Yeah it was just unfortunate or perhaps by design that Endymion was part of that squadron as she was one of the fastest warships at the time and all she had to do was slow the president down and both captains new that

[@Alex-cw3rz]

​​@@harryberning3621 she wasn't one of the fastest she was the fastest in the Royal Navy. The squadron wasn't anything to do with this, a squadron of frigates is pretty normal for any large navy at the time, it wasn't common for the US because they didn't have enough ships for mutiple squadrons.

[@jacktattis]

@@Alex-cw3rz well considering all the other ships that may have challenged the Endymion had gone The Royal Navy was the largest navy in the world Tell us which ship was faster ? The Danes were stuffed the French Spanish as well

[@Alex-cw3rz]

@@jacktattis I said she was the fastest

[@jacktattis]

Thanks I did not read it correctly

[@user-hw1qo2mu9e]

Thanks Drach.

[@PauloVitor-st7ld]

Drach, please keep this 3d, its perfect

[@lewiswestfall2687]

Thanks Drach

[@BCSJRR]

Naval Action had the Endymion type available to those who had shipyards to build one. It was my favorite type of ship in that game. Properly built and optioned, they could haul butt.

[@athrunzala6919]

I recommend you do a video on the Aconit (formerly HMS Aconite) was one of the nine Flower-class corvettes. And one on Canadas only aircraft carrier HMCS Magnificent, the Magi

[@LinusNapoleonicShipyard]

My favorite the HMS Endymion

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Schroedingers Surrender

[@klauskervin2586]

Rule the Waves 3 is a great game. You should make a video of yourself playing it Drach! Thanks for the content!

[@kkupsky6321]

You’re so close. It’s not everyday you make 500k. Please share like and subscribe and help Drach bring naval history to everyone. Also patreon or a thanks always helps.

[@akumaking1]

Can you explore pre World War submarine missions?

[@kmech3rd]

Still love the intro music :)

[@jamesvandemark2086]

These frigate actions diverted the attention of the Royal Navy, thus enabling the American privateers to have a high old time of it. (incl our ancestor) In confusion, there is profit.

[@harryberning3621]

Not really you forget how large the royal navy was at the time a handful of frigates and 2 ships of the line was less the a 1% of what they had at sea at the time. The bigger distraction was the French navy

[@jamesvandemark2086]

@@harryberning3621 Oops- I forgot the French!

[@DTinkerer]

Commenting for the algorithm

[@Alex-cw3rz]

I think this is a good example of the myth of the 6 frigates when they were deisgned they were the best Friagtes around, however HMS Endymion which was an all around better ship was commissioned a year after the 6 frigates. It shows that even in this time where the ships look similar designs innvoation was still happening. By the war of 1812 the 6 frigates had outdated features and Britain did not copy the design for other frigates as it was not ser it as a very good design.

[@ciuyr2510]

3D animations, i like!

[@ZS-rw4qq]

Hi, have you by any chance thought of covering the Adriatic campaign that took place in the same era?

[@CthulhuInc]

so, what was the final score? which side won the most "duels"?

[@harryberning3621]

Would love to see a full video on Endymion one of my favourite ships

[@AmosDohms]

Such a cool sounding name!

[@222tifi]

Also my favourite ship. Oh the adventures that could have been had as captain of her if given license to roam..

[@captaincruise8796]

I’m not sure this qualifies at all as a frigate duel, given that the ominous squadron in pursuit really limited Decatur’s options. It is a showcase of Endymion’s sailing abilities and seamanship nonetheless- probably no other ship in the Royal Navy at the time could have achieved what she did before nightfall.

[@marcm4268]

500K give away! I’m having 500K recipient day! I will gladly accept the half million dollars sir.

[@kennkoala]

What is "ordinary?" In Outlander an ordinary is a cross between a restaurant and a café, I don't know the naval designation.

[@Erdanya]

Being 'in ordinary' basically means a ship is out of service. Could be for repairs, rearming, or because there's just no use for them right now (think: mothballing), but often without crew, or maybe a skeleton crew at best.

[@folly6682]

You might be thinking of an old definition of 'ordinary' as a place that sold hard liquor. This was completely different from the way navies used the term, which was more like how we would talk about a ship being 'mothballed' today.

[@chiseldrock]

Question: Could any single ship have overtaken the brig?? can't send two, so if not, a check in the make sense to me box.

[@tommytwotacos8106]

When and why did sailing ships stop using chain shot to take apart each other's sails? Thanks.

[@matthewkidd7219]

Curious what Drach thinks of Rule the Waves 3? I know he generally doesn't accept endorsements that he doesn't approve of but I'd be interested in a review.

[@gusmcgranahan9779]

12:26 That's an AI image if I'm not mistaken.

[@Oradal]

16:24 Isn't the flag upside down? 🙃

[@bigsarge2085]

⚓

[@nikolaideianov5092]

1:03 Huh i have it Its a great game (Ignoring the microsoft exel graphics)

[@TheHistoricalReview]

Blutarski at Navweaps posted this account of HMS Pomone from Naval Chronicles Vol XXXIII: “The enemy then also luffed to port, bringing his larboard broadside to bear, which was momentarily expected, as a few minutes previous to our closing her she hoisted a light abaft, which in night actions, substitutes the ensign; our second broadside was fired, and the President still luffing up, as if intent to lay us on board; we hauled close to port , bracing the yards up, and setting the mainsail; the broadside was again ready to be fired into his bows raking, when she hauled down the light, and we hail’d demanding if she had surrendered - the reply was in the affirmative, and the firing instantly ceased” This disagrees completely with your account at 30:00. Sorry.

[@michaelholt8590]

The British navy of old were the best pirates

[@thevictoryoverhimself7298]

Boo this one is less fun than the other frigate actions - All the americans

[@c.h.s9022]

pretty much lol

[@adamcarriere4465]

LOL no shame in losing a fight when you are out numbered 4 to 1...

[@jerichostevens2711]

but now we rule the waves... all of them... all of the time.

[@MrEsphoenix]

​@@jerichostevens2711 Yeah, worked out well for us too, as we get all the security without having to pay for a fleet multiple times the size of everyone else.

[@jacktattis]

At 29:40 " some say the Endymion was crippled " Yes and I bet they were Americans

[@kylelee9474]

[@michaelimbesi2314]

President did not get off the bar so much as she shoved herself over the bar.

[@michaelimbesi2314]

Any seabed impact severe enough to break rudder pintles would have ripped up the copper. The copper sheets on the ship’s hull are not very thick and I’ve seen them chewed up by a small work float being warped along the ship. Running aground would tear them to shreds.

[@harryberning3621]

Losing a few copper sheets is very unlikely to effect a ships short turm performance

[@boatbikemike8571]

They must have put those “extra” pintles in for nothing then. USS President was renowned as the fastest of the US frigates. That is why she became HMS President, and that is why she was so painstakingly disassembled. While I do not blame a Subject of His Majesty for taking a side, CS Forester and I will stick with his narrative.

[@kkupsky6321]

Yaknow… it’s amazing the seabirds and awful boobies and seagulls and all always pipe down and stay quiet while drach records. I dunno why i think he’s bored at a light house. Mrs drach misses you please go home. Great microphones

[@76dg15]

Obligatory comment for the algorithm

[@charleslarrivee2908]

Operative phrase "and friends". President was ganged up upon; it was not a fair fight. Of course, given her running aground in bad weather and sustaining damage, she would not have been in equal condition to Endymion in any case.

[@harryberning3621]

by which you mean USS President tried to run away and failed

[@Erdanya]

Ladies and Gentlemen: 'nuhuh' the comment

[@merlinwizard1000]

45th, 7 June 2024

[@mrdomhare]

I love the channel but wtf is with that Samsung Galaxy wake up intro music