Frith and Grith: Heathen Tools of Diplomacy

[@Dinx45]

*you gain +5 in your Heathen Tools of Diplomacy skill*

[@ThorAnderson]

This reminds me of how we make friends as children with people in our class. Grith. and then encountering them outside of class and see in how being outside of the classroom environment you can establish a mutually understood connection because you're not in this space where these things are force and that makes your connection more genuine. Frith.

[@Shepfax]

I really like your newer explanation of Frith and Grith in terms of temporariness. It feels way more practical than the inner/outeryard approach.

[@Dinx45]

Innangard / Utangard dont have to be permanent either. But they ARE more extreme.

[@Yougotubes]

Ha! the word Grith just blew my Etymology-geek mind! Grith->Greet, to greet someone is to establish grith with someone. we still use the word and the action, in a related concept and interaction, even if it's in a diminished capacity. I love these hidden-in-plain-sight gems

[@chilixocoltl]

I somehow got unsubscribed from your channel without doing it myself! I'm glad this video came up in my recommendations anyway.

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

I have to say again how grateful I am that you're willing to clarify stuff like this.

[@TheDiabeticGameMaster]

Just because you're an antitheist doesn't mean you need to be an asshole. When I was really down on all religion I still kept it to myself. And even when I did get to talking with close friends or other people who agreed to get down and dirty with me I always came at it with the idea of.explaining my problems with religion and also with a genuine want to understand WHY people are religious. Just because you don't believe in the same thing as somebody else, it doesn't mean you have to be an asshole.

[@Nervardia]

So, out of curiosity, has Grith been established with some people in the atheist community over whether a hotdog is a sandwich or is it still all-out war?

[@OceanKeltoi]

That is a conflict that will never be settled. These sandwich absurdists are a pox on our nation.

[@allgodsnomasters2822]

@@OceanKeltoi A pox on all nations, the bread must be divided!

[@Lonewolf-hu2vn]

Hotdogs are both a sandwich and not

[@Lonewolf-hu2vn]

@@ShockedSquirrelhere exactly, quantum dogs

[@mishapurser4439]

@@Lonewolf-hu2vn Schroedinger's cat but with a hotdog not in a box so the WTFery is fully visible.

[@michaeltreat4000]

This helps me immensely. I've felt so locked in my 'battle with god' and in my battles with absolutist or extremist outcomes. This really helps me introduce the idea of truce making in a way that I can understand and see as something diplomatic, and helps me re-define my own understanding of god, and start to create an environment of Grith. Thank you so much, this is great!

[@thewick-j1837]

This was awesome to learn about. Never heard about these terms, but im interested now. Thanks for the links. Also I'm an atheist and I really do like understanding more about polytheism, its cool and wild to watch something (that I was taught was dead and a joke all my life) be even more rational than the three Abrahamic fellas.

[@vinx.909]

atheist here who's noticed that he's been going slight too far on the "strong atheist" side. i enjoy a good discussion on faith, religion, and stuff like that. but as long as the person doesn't use faith or religion as justification/excuse for something harmful i'm/i should be fine with them having that. to a polytheist (or really any type of theist other then a medenist) i'll want to ask why, but out of curiosity, not attack/debunking. personally won't use the words Frith and Grith, but that's mainly because they are odd words that won't end up in my lexicon partially because of dyslexia, but it's good concepts to keep in mind.

[@corypowercat7277]

I notice that a lot of Heathens I've encountered tend to ignore the honor bits when it comes to their families. They treat their wives and children like dirt.

[@Dinx45]

I will be tackling that in a series of videos soon.

[@Dinx45]

You can still be pagan and have shit honor. Worship in the gods and venerating ancestors and nature is what makes you pagan. You can be an awful person and still be extremely pious.

[@dolfuny]

I really like the concepts of frith and grith and I'm hoping to adopt this concepts into my own life (hopefully that's okay since I am an atheist who left Christianity for almost a year) but I have a question. What should I do in a setting like my home in which I live with my parents? It can be hard to keep religious conversations out of the house and I honestly heavily engaged in these religious conversations in the past when I was first outed as an atheist but I don't want to engage in them anymore. My mom (whom I love and is very nice) can be really unfair in debates asking me to answer impossible questions like what should I do to fix the condition of the heart (for everyone in the world) or to explain complex science things that I haven't looked into because I'm still just a high school student, yet she won't be honest when I ask what she believes/feels regarding other religions that also claim to be true or hell belief. I feel like grith works great for family gatherings but my home is a lot more permanent than a visit to my grandma's house if that makes any sense. However frith can so easily broken since my mom will say bullshit like god wants you back randomly in the hallway which is really annoying and reminds me of shit that I don't want to go back to. I don't know what the best way to get rid of this unfair and useless religious conversation.

[@dolfuny]

Great video by the way

[@OceanKeltoi]

Fuck this is rough. It's hard to try and set up grith within the home in a situation like this because it prevents the ability of walking away from the relationship, especially if the person in question is committed to breaking grith by consistently disrespecting you. Maybe explaining to her that you need a truce and try to establish grith in that way can work. But even then, there's no way to actually prevent grithbreaking if she's going to insist on fighting. This is a dick move, but perhaps saying that the more she fights with you on the subject the less interested you are in Christianity could be a way on delivering the message. But that could also have serious backfire consequences. Just be careful and stay safe.

[@dolfuny]

@@OceanKeltoi thank you, I appreciate the advice and feedback

[@OceanKeltoi]

Absolutely. That's a particularly rough situation to be in. I hope you're able to get out soon. Sometimes the reality of that kind of situation keeps us closeted until we can really express ourselves once we're living on our own.

[@thenecroticfiend1692]

I wish I could apply these. Many people around me would regularly break them. I’m new to heathenism and most people around me are either Christians or Atheists, which is fine until you get insulted from both sides. Although there has been some who are absolutely lovely. I was wondering though, have you done a video for younger heathens who are just starting?

[@lilykatmoon4508]

I really like these concepts. I had watched another video you did on Frith where you discussed being in social situations with family and how that awareness of being g a guest and not wanting to break frith, really got me thinking about my family situation. It was very helpful to me. I will continue to learn further. Thank you fire sharing your perspective.

[@michaeldad3847]

Excellent video, Ocean. I like the idea of having a single word for these concepts.

[@caliban2805]

I didn't know the names for the concepts but they have definitely been apart of my life my grandmother was Christian my mother was more Buddhist so her and my grandmother never spoke about religion by respected the other and ever let it become a problem. Then when I become pagan my mother was actually really supportive

[@michaelumholtz4800]

I know that this is an old video but I'm new to the Norse Pagan religion. I've been learning a lot through your videos and I find then extremely knowledgeable. Thanks for the knowledge!

[@missZoey5387]

Frith and Grith sound like concepts anyone could use, not just polytheists. I might start using it

[@Katie-mb8zj]

I feel like Grith will be a great concept (if completely unspoken) when I am with my family. I am still a closeted Heathen (at least among my family) and my family is entirely Christian. I actually was already doing this without realizing it as some of my family is strong Republican and I tend to lean left of center. (We had conversations come up about the current man in the White House at a few family functions).

[@OceanKeltoi]

Sometimes using the word 'truce' can be useful. You can also blame the show 'Vikings' for doing research on Norse culture and say you got the concepts from reading about history. I've heard many a story of closeted Heathens just pretending to be history nerds.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

@@OceanKeltoi Like that idea, thanks. It would work for atheists too and any number of "rejected" beliefs.

[@certs743]

This is a new concept to me but I can already see how incredibly useful this concept can be in life.

[@DeshkaArt]

[@dancando6391]

Thanks for explaining some of this! I have always loved learning about this stuff.

[@JACandQuill]

And I can feel frith in this waffle house tonight

[@mishapurser4439]

When the House of Commons in the UK is in session, a kind of parliamentary etiquette similar to grith is established within the room. It doesn't help that the room is designed to have the government and opposition (MPs from parties not in government) facing from opposite sides of the room, creating an adversarial rather than cooperative atmosphere.

[@Donut.Runner]

Thanks for taking the time to explain this so well. Just found your channel and so far it's great!

[@TheJohnnybows]

After watching the end of this video I think playing both philosophies are probably one of the best things I’ve ever heard we all know to do it and have it explained Outloud means a great deal knowing what’s right and hearing what’s right and doing it regardless exist in the weird Tryon print are people good because they’re told to be good or are people good because they are good do you propose A degree of self examination which forces one to decide how his future will be defined I think you’re doing a great job I can’t wait to watch the next video

[@corypowercat7277]

Thanks for the explanation. The Reconstruction group I'm on always confuses me with the terms. So I guess my father's side of the family violated my frith with all they've done to me.

[@wonderlustarte]

Oh gods thanks for the explanation bro! I was damn confused with Frith and Grith before

[@JamesM1994]

What sort of "gotcha" questions get thrown at you, and how do you answer them?

[@OceanKeltoi]

Sometimes they're long setups. But often they're simple undermining questions about marvel characters or something. And how I answer depends greatly on the situation and the person I'm dealing with.

[@allgodsnomasters2822]

@@OceanKeltoi The Marvel shit is such a pain in the ass

[@the_polish_prince8966]

@@OceanKeltoi One time I was having a relatively reasonable discussion about theology with a Christian in a GMS video's comments and some troll with a crucifix for a profile pic came out of nowhere and told me "there's no infinity stones in real life"... I didn't grace them with a response.

[@marksalazar4086]

As someone who is leaning Hindu/Buddhist, even I when I was a Christian I always gave respect to my pagan friends. A lot of Christians don’t really walk the walk or talk the talk, like being kind to others and all that. But these concepts are interesting nonetheless.

[@marksalazar4086]

I guess followed Grith & Frith without knowing about it ☺️.

[@robpetoletti826]

Thank you for the explanation, excellent!

[@laurajarrell6187]

Damn, Ocean, I'm listening, late as usual, and was going to ask if you had a 'thing' about this, and you immediately mention it. I love word origins, and 'thing' has been a favorite of mine! I'm antitheist, but only the harmful aspects, which means basically the abrahamic ones. I have some issues with others, mostly only those with 'purity culture's. So that means I'm fine with pagans, Wiccan and satanism, the real, not the demonized (sorry,pun!) Christan version. And I rarely have issue with the believers, (victims)it's the leaders and ideas. Loved this!👏💝☮️🎃🐋🐙🦑🦐🐡I need a seaturtle! My sister's spirit animal!

[@gregcampwriter]

Bionic Dance has it right: Anyone who can play nice with others is fine by me. I don't recall any atheists or polytheists telling me that I have to accept a set of rules, even if I'm not a member of the club, or try to impose their way of seeing things through the force of law.

[@redhood48]

Posting a comment even though the video isn't live yet

[@Zugzug386]

Hello Ocean, Thank you for the interesting video. Speaking from the atheist perspective the video makes me wonder if there is a common issue in their pasts. By this I mean is there leftover habits or behavior from before they were atheists (if that is the case in their history). Personally I arrived at a position of non belief because I am unconvinced in the existence of gods but have no desire to effect others belief or lack there of unless it happens organically. As to Frith and Grith with how many online discussions go in the atheist community some form of ability to broker peace is something I wish more people discussed.

[@capitalistraven]

Always a pleasure Ocean. A couple questions.: First: If the point of contention between atheists and polytheists matters at all (and I believe it does) would that make any Frith between our communities definitionally situational and temporary (Grith)? Second: I recently got banned from the pagan subreddit for violating the non-evangelizing rule for just mentioning that I was an atheist. I never tried to "convert" anyone, I even clarified my belief (or lack thereof) was provisional and could be wrong. Do you think this hostility is common? If so, do you think it's backlash from hostile atheists or something more fundamental to polytheist belief? Thanks!

[@OceanKeltoi]

I know that a lot of polytheist spaces on the internet have gotten enough flack from atheists that they tend to just ban on sight. They're not interested in sussing out with each person whether or nor there's going to be a fight. I don't necessarily agree with the method, but I understand it. To answer your first question, I don't think Frith will be established between the polytheist and atheist communities generally. But I do think that it can happen with individuals and should happen with individuals. Tensions can relax through individual friendships.

[@capitalistraven]

@@OceanKeltoi Thanks for the clarification. I admit that ban was a bit of a slap in the face but it stings a bit less now. Keep up the awesome content and conversations. I feel like I learn something every time!👍

[@jhutchnik]

Very well said! I am actually a pantheist, which I consider to be consistent with a NeoPagan perspective. To that point, I believe the ideals of grith and frith to be essential when conversing and sharing ideas with others, both those with and without a faith--as well as those who are questioning. When beginning a conversation of this nature, it's always good to begin things in a spirit of peace, respect and understanding--and then it should only be broken if that spirit is not reciprocated. Even then, it is usually not best to throw the proverbial "first punch," so to speak. That would simply be a revelation of a lack of discipline and emotional control. The key is coming together to at least agree to disagree. If that cannot be done, then it is time to either control the narrative or get out of it entirely.

[@lllama138]

I really like the this topic and its continuations. As a very curious atheist it's very fascinating! I love using better tools to interact with others and gain more gnostic power!

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

Seems I've been doing this for ages with no short term for it. And an understanding of such could possibly make some internet spaces more civil. And I too have come across atheists (or rather had them come across me) who are militantly arrogant telling everyone what they believe and think and feel (not at all what they are saying, or believe/think/feel) and of course are wrong/ignorant/pathetic etc, oh and "hostile". Not sure everyone gets the concept of civility. And I loved this video. It's helpful.

[@alan260785]

Been a couple of month watching your vids now Haven't notice you have "Find a way or make one" in futhark I learned the runes not long ago and i could read it inmediatly😄 That is f... awesome

[@Maximus2761]

I think that frith and grith are a natural state of things. For example, the paris peace conference after WW1 is an extent of this idea or even the Geneva convention, that while you may have disagreed on something i.e. my immediate family is agnostic and I lean towards atheism but our extended family are all practicing Christians or Catholics you are civil and agreeable in that respective setting.

[@DuchessChau]

why do they want to get rid of faith? I can understand that people suck, but they will suck with or without faith. If my faith gives me some peace, then let me have my peace.

[@bengreen171]

the Switzerland of social etiquette. I think all sensible people adhere to those ideas, they maybe just don't use those terms.

[@jenmqkeeper]

Can frith and grith only be between humans or groups of humans? Or can it extend to others, such as deities, spirits, animals? Or are there other terms for similar relationships to non-humans?

[@gregcampwriter]

Frith is also the rabbit's sun god and creator of the world. I'm with Scotty: The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank. It seems to me that atheists and polytheists should get along, if only because it's the monotheists who are the biggest danger.

[@amandaforrester7636]

And when the monotheists aren't a threat anymore, will the atheists who see all faith as a virus turn on us?

[@gregcampwriter]

@@amandaforrester7636 From my conversations with atheists, I've concluded that they will be happy to engage in spirited debate, but also to live and let live.

[@mentaldurrange6896]

When I was an atheist, I was adamant about this (only with Christians as thats what I was exposed to). I really don't like that I did that most the time, because sometimes it was a reaction to a Christian trying to convert me, but we grow as people. For me it took me really looking at myself to think about why I would want to ruin this experience for someone.

[@captaintomasquin]

So my concept of these terms get elements of the gifting cycle woven in to the point of nearly mutual aid or balance between people of unequal power.

[@JDBriceProductions]

Okay, after minutes ago saying I will adopt frith, I will also now include grith.

[@magiofthoth]

I was going to ask in discord, but y'all shut it down for the holidays. Sadly mine has been crappy and wanted to ask, do we have a third term, where Grith was broken?

[@binaryglitch64]

Odin guide me, for it is wisdom I seek, awe but you require sacrifice of me for your sacrifice... if I break my next cigarette will you take that? It will not be replaced by another in it's stead. I'll make sure the ravens see me do it. That will be the easy part. This prayer is in place of a message that was basically a question for which the answer was made obvious by the time I got done typing it. Now I must go to the park to not smoke even though I really want to, to make good on my prayer.

[@FemboyFrankenstein]

HEY OCEAN YOU'RE LOVELY!

[@mishapurser4439]

I really want to start using frith and grith in my life. It's a concept with real practical purpose that the world could do with more of. I'm an atheopagan fascinated by people's polytheist beliefs. I used to be that anti-theist grithless arsehole, but now I prefer to come to people with respect and wanting to understand rather than dismantle people's faiths.

[@prussiankingdom1693]

Grith = cease fire Frith = non egression pact

[@postlim]

what do you mean by granting legitimacy? when you have respect for another. for me i don't need to respect ones position to respect the person holding it.

[@warrendriscoll350]

Always good to clarify. A question for you. Your faith does not have any occult elements? Or am I wrong?

[@OceanKeltoi]

I’m actually not sure what you’re asking.

[@warrendriscoll350]

@@OceanKeltoi About the word occultism. Is it connected to your faith? Is it unrelated?

[@rhuntsinger8899]

just curious. as someone with a degree in middle english (aka out of work professor) and an interest in Germanic culture, so these neo-pagans really believe that Thor and Odin and Frig exist as real entities? always thought it was the glorification of their story and ideals and blots. i am an atheist of course but i really dont care either way. im new to the youtube environment. so can i infer there are video debates on this? thanks

[@coregoon]

Have heard the term "frith" tho I wonder why people don't say "peace" instead, since it means the same. 🤔 Fancy alliteration aside, that is. Honestly never heard of grith. Innangard/utangard are essentially non-words. No idea who started those concepts in American Heathenry, but I'm Scandinavian, not American, hence why I'm unfamiliar with those words (other than their literal meaning, and that they seem like valid Old Norse compound words, they're just never recorded).

[@safourgardpa5459]

Holy shit man, did you ever go back and mix that fucking ear blasting intro?

[@glennfrith5389]

Very interesting

[@averyl6086]

cool video

[@thehorriblebright]

Are you sure about the pronunciation of frith? As a native Swedish speaker I would pronounce it with a long vowel sound. Like in free or peace.

[@iruleandyoudont9]

I think you can treat people with respect without respecting nonsensical beliefs they hold

[@marksalazar4086]

Ooh cool. Noice

[@ragingwitch8875]

giving this a rewatch and realized I never left this a comment, oops

[@soulmechanics7946]

Grith. I said "griss" in my video for you. Sorry. That is what I meant.

[@TheJohnnybows]

I think the goal of the atheist is not undermined the religious guy so much as to look for a spark an atheist is a logical being like a Vulcan from Star Trek they’ve been betrayed by all bullies they have only logic a new realization a new philosophy something that is a third wheel is difficult for them to grasp being with they’ve been hurt so many timesI know the job is not to recruit a pagan but their anger and attack is really just a cry for help

[@Saitaina]

I hold Frith with all polytheistic, but I *AM* a nosey bitch about humans and the human experience so it IS curious to me what leads someone to their views, but ONLY if they are down for a discussion. It's not about judgement or that, just me being a curious George who studies humans too much. That said, I am also a snarky bitch and have different described someone having a religious video n as a ”viking delusion”, but she was a good friend whom promptly smacked my arm and got us got chocolate. 😜

[@dakotajames1233]

Algorithm.

[@grithvemmingoksen1464]

Lol my name is Grith.

[@kennethfrith9563]

My last name

[@draconicrain7609]

I said a bad word on your server so I was banned from both you and suris.

[@flarenova6286]

was it a slur?

[@muad1916]

Schwurblerkram. Homöopathie für LARPer.