Front Wide Speakers - AV Processors Receivers that support 2023

[@jb.2986]

Enjoyed the history lesson Jon. Nice comparisons too. Great job putting all that together. We had front wides using our Marantz Receiver. When we upgraded to the McIntosh MX123 we changed to a 7.2.6 configuration with Seven bed layers and six height speakers for spatial audio. Our fam is definitely happy with the switch.

[@ripewave]

Can you elaborate on why you moved away from Front Wide speakers? Did you enjoy them while you had the Marantz configured for them? Does the third row of heights bring that much more to the experience? -Jon

[@jb.2986]

@@ripewave sure….We did not have them placed wide enough outside of our main speakers to make much of a difference due to room constraints.

[@hassannasir90]

I have Stormaudio Elite MK2 and using the same room constraint issue plus have martin logan system so it is making it more difficult. However, will try it soon.

[@ripewave]

That makes sense

[@FURognar]

Dont think of Wide channels as extensions of the front soundstage. They are NOT analagous to the Todd AO and SDDS formats. Those additional speakers are all designed to fit BEHIND the screen. These additional screen channels go between the main left and right speakers are are called "center left" and "center right" channels. (There are two more channels that can fit behind the screen but we wont discuss those here) Wide channels are actually extensions of the SURROUND channels and their job is to help smooth out pans from the front stage to the surround speakers. They happen to sit close enough to the front stage so objects imaged between the front mains and wide channels can significantly widen the front soundstage. But that is a secondary function and not its primary job. Its this misunderstanding that fosters peoples disappointment when the Wides are not often used in conjunction with the front speakers to create widwe soundstage. They are being used more often these days. As long as the Atmos has active objects or the processor has DTS:X-Pro.

[@ripewave]

Perfect clarification. I should have been that clear. Yes - those older formats fill in between Front Left/Right and Center while the Front Wide speakers of today fill in between side surrounds and Left/Right Fronts. Also key point about the source needing to have Atmos with active objects or DTS:X Pro. Jon

[@bigjonb6778]

This may be a dumb question. I’m just building my first non soundbar system and I’m wondering if it’s necessary to toe in the fronts and rears to the center seat? If so is there a beneficial reason to do so? Thanks for the informative videos there’s a lot more to home theater than I thought.

[@ripewave]

This is a good question. In general it is usually best to point speakers towards the listener "toe-in" regardless of the speaker location. The need for this measure depends on your speakers. Some speakers have a wide dispersion providing a high degree of consistency across multiple seating positions. The more narrow a speaker's dispersion is, the more necessary it becomes to point that speaker towards the main listening position. However, if a narrow speaker is pointed towards the main listener, then those seated in other positions will be impacted, noticeably diminishing their experience. So in cases where you want to normalize the listening experience as much as possible throughout the room, you may choose to keep the speakers facing forward with no angle at all. Of course, those looking for whole room consistency are usually better to start with a wider dispersion speaker. I recommend trying your speakers at different angles, listening for a while at each angle to determine what sounds best to you for all the listening positions you want to satisfy. Jon

[@williamhicks2763]

I think it depends a lot on your room and seating arrangement. In my living room (that is the only home theater room I have) the openings and passage ways in the rear, and our seating arrangement make it an imperative that I angle my rears toward the sweet spot in the center of the couch. If I went with in wall speakers, the only way I could do that would mean one would be firing forward and one would be firing at 90 degrees across the back of the room. Alternatively, if I went with on wall speakers and brackets that allowed both speakers to fire directly forward, then one seat against the left wall and one seat near the right wall would only hear the speaker on their side of the room, and probably at way too high of volume. So, I elected to go with on wall speakers with brackets that I can toe into the center and I think that will work best in my room. Those speakers are on back order so this is theoretical at the moment. I may even need to cross over where they are aimed to be behind the center sweet spot so that those two wide seating positions get a more balanced rear sound. For movies I’m all about the couch but for gatherings like football games and such I have to consider what those other seating positions will be hearing and I don’t want them to be blasted by a rear channel.

[@ripewave]

Yes - lots of decisions to make for mounting that can impact the results but are constrained by room elements such as openings and depth of room and seating locations to accommodate. I like your on wall bracket approach. It is likely you can make adjustments and change the angle to some degree vs in wall where you are limited to what the speaker itself supports for adjustment - which is often little to none. -Jon

[@williamhicks2763]

This information is certainly helpful. I’m not sure if I will use front wides but I do want to have that option. I will certainly experiment with it after my 7 channel bed layer is complete. I could certainly see it adding to the future proofing of such a purchase.

[@ripewave]

I feel the same. It is nice to have the option so you can try for yourself and decide whether to keep on not. -Jon

[@trauma50disaster1]

I've not tried wides yet but I have tried something that opened up the front sound stage more than anything I've seen, on the new sony 7000 avr. It has 3 different options, and I liked them all. The revolutionary one is the 360 Reality Audio Reference Configuration. It has 5.1.5.3 with 3 low on the floor speakers for left, center, right. It was cool and I heard all kinds of new stuff that a regular 1 center speaker can't deliver. The other is the dual center and the center lift using heights, I really liked those as well.

[@ripewave]

Thanks for sharing. The new Sony's with their 360 Reality Audio is getting a lot of positive reviews by owners. Sony is next on my list to review - can't wait to experience firsthand. -Jon

[@MrKurtBergeron]

Thank you for the video. It would be SUPER helpful if you covered which processors/receivers are able to matrix the front wide channels for source material that does not include them, like you did for the "Arcam AV41 vs Monoprice HTP 1 vs Emotiva RMC 1 sound comparison" video. I purchased the RMC-1 for the front wide channels, since it was just about the only processor (besides the Trinnov) that I could find, that supported them. Had I known there would be no sound coming out of them for over 90% of the movies that I have, I may have waited for something like the Monoprice HTP-1 instead.

[@rota3781]

I use the Front Wides arrangement on my Stereo system and the result was a wide sound stage, the only problem is that I have to place the chair forward

[@ripewave]

Yes - placement can be challenging. Thanks for the feedback on your experience - i agree, if you can accommodate, it is worth the upgrade.

[@williamhicks2763]

Does anyone know of a good laser protractor type device that would help me measure angles both in the horizontal and vertical planes so I could see the spot on the wall exactly where my speakers should be placed? Hopefully an affordable one. Thanks.

[@ripewave]

I would be interested in that device as well. When I determined the angles and locations for my ceiling speakers I used what I had available, but was not ideal. I combined the level in my iPhone with a carpenters laser tool. The iPhone got the angle and the laser tool marked the spot. -Jon

[@trauma50disaster1]

room layout might be a consideration for wides. I have had my setup on the "longer" wall before that would give more space for wides being deeper towards the tv. But on the "shorter" wall although enough room, it just isn't needed for me.

[@ripewave]

If you follow the Dolby guidance, they are not saying the Front Wide speakers have to be on the front wall. They actually position the Front Wide speakers at the midpoint between the Front and Side Surround speakers. For most of us, that point is located on the side walls. That is where I will be placing mine. Just be sure to angle towards the main listening position. -Jon

[@Av-ss8yw]

DENON AVR-X4200W (9.2.4), all I have to say is play the intro to any STARWARS ( Return of the Jedi preferably) in wide and then compare it regular. You will then know what wide is for.

[@ripewave]

When you can hear a difference - it’s worth it. Thanks. -Jon

[@ap6553]

Oh man, last year I bought a couple of SVS Prime Satellite speakers for Auro 3D Front Heights (to go with my LCR Ultras). Didn't notice a significant difference in sound. Would like to try Front Wides but my Denon 3800 doesn't support it, oh well. I can see a receiver upgrade at some point in my future.

[@ripewave]

The SVS Prime Satellite speakers are designed to be used at ear level as the drivers are not angled down towards the listener when mounted high. Are you able to put them on speaker mounts that enable them to be pointed towards your listening position? If you have them point towards your ears, the height effects will be the most noticeable. -Jon

[@ap6553]

@@ripewave Yes I have them on wall mounts. I have V shaped vaulted ceilings and they are mounted to the side walls above my screen (which is about 6' from front wall). I just upgraded from a Marantz AV-7702 Mkii pre/pro to a Denon 3800. If I understand correctly I can't have 7.4.4 Atmos and front Auro heights too?

[@trauma50disaster1]

fyi there are options to adjust up to 15 the auro effect as well as movie or talk shows, I keep mine on 15 and movie. Also, adjusting volume level of the auro heights to experiment might be a consideration. For me, I can adjust auro front heights to dial in the forest sounds of demo movies to my liking. As well as turn down the sides if to much for me, and turn up the rear heights if I prefer. Good luck

[@ap6553]

@@trauma50disaster1 Thanks great suggestions

[@georgestephens2038]

My Marantz 8015 has this front wide input on back panel the newer ones do not have this

[@truwarrior22]

I think you really need a 7.X.X before going to front wides with 9.X.X. Otherwise I think the object placement will be off some… For example, something from the surround might be coming out the front wide, etc

[@ripewave]

I think it is worth testing that theory out. Certainly I can try once I have front wide channels added to my system. I would assume that the rear channel information would not move any closer to the front then the side surrounds if you had no rear channels in a layout that included front wides. However, I can’t rule that possibility out without trying for myself. -Jon

[@truwarrior22]

@@ripewavethis is what I recalled when I added front wides to my 5.1: So I tested front wides with side surrounds (7.1 with front wides). It seems like it sounds a little off? Running an dobly channel test, it appears side surround goes to the front wides and rear surround content goes to the side surround. For instance, when king king is eating the flying war bat, the slurping sounds come from the front wides. Is the slurping suppose to come come the side surround? I thought it seemed odd that it came from the front wides and really need side and rear surround maybe?

[@billybobby7607]

Already have the amplifiers and speakers to front wide so why not. Spare bits of cable lying around and spare RCA cables

[@trauma50disaster1]

It's kind of hard to say without a lot of testing, and I know I often mess stuff up and have it plugged in wrong. But I didn't think dolby actually is encoded for wides, so I wonder if what you heard might have been some upconverter? I also wonder if the avr's have different dsp to make wides work and that must be wild west stuff of how the brands are determining it. I might imagine the manual having a convoluted way of mixing between the sides etc.

[@ripewave]

Thanks for describing your experience-helpful -Jon

[@hoser2901]

FYI My Tonewinner AT300 processor does support front wides.

[@hoser2901]

Also @ 1375 US dollars it would be the least expensive.

[@billybobby7607]

Yup my at300 has this 9.3.4

[@ripewave]

As I mentioned on the other thread ... Thanks for that detail. Sorry I missed that one. The odd thing is the manual I am referring to for the Tonewinner AT-300 does not mention Front Wide support nor does the silk-screen on the back identify which outputs are for Front Wide. Which outputs can be configured for Front Wide speakers on the AT-300? Jon

[@chebrubin]

@@ripewave agreed its is written in PRC mandarin, with that being said can you update the infographic to put the Tonwinner adjacent to IOTAVX. You give up 7.3.6 when you choose to go with 9.3.4. It is a wonderful processor with XLR (and subwoofer 1) for all the bed layers and heights. The problem is that it does not support DTX:X Pro and does not up mix the DSU to include the front wides with 7 channel bed layer media. So you will only enjoy media that is encoded with front wide Atmos like Godzilla vs. Kong.

[@billybobby7607]

@@ripewave fw LR and ltm and rtm shared