Frosthaven: 5 Likes & 3 Dislikes | First Impressions from 2 Euro Gamers!

[@MegzMcMegz]

I *knew* Amy would love the card mechanic. It's such a great mechanic.

[@Hahahahaaahaahaa]

Great review! Agree with every point. There's tons of good things, but the dislikes are spot on. I HAVE played GH (JotL) and the outpost phase is still a bit of a mess at times. It's clear that they took the settlement phase from games like Kingdom Death and tried to pare it down for a campaign of this length, not realizing that the "just build whatever and see what happens" only really works if you are going to play the campaign multiple times to learn from your mistakes. As you note in the dislike 3, there is no 'fail forward' for the missions, but somehow there is a "fail completely" option for the actual town of FH. Eleven scenarios in and we are already realizing we should have invested in some of the early buildings asap, instead of worrying about gear so much. I do LIKE that there are resources to manage, and things to build, and a town to evolve, but I don't think they hit the mark on execution. My only other dislike is that this GIANT board is completely useless, and fully redundant information with the exception of some of the starting building costs. It's thematically cool, but when it doesn't fit on the table with the rest of the game it's not exactly a joy to hold up once every couple of hours to put stickers on and then put back away. That being said, our likes certainly outweigh our dislikes and it's clear that the iterations to the game have really paid off. And the WRITING is 1000% better in FH than GH, such that even the 'good' pieces of FH lore and story seem like a joke by comparison. As a house rule, we've decided if we lose a scenario to just lose all of our non-gold resources gained from that scenario, and move on as normal, because 100% agree that once the surprise is gone so is a decent chunk of the joy of playing.

[@jimmyp1594]

Thanks for the review! I am so glad you highlighted the failure mechanic as a dislike. I only have Gloomhaven JotL, and both myself and the friend I play with felt horrible putting in roughly an hour or two into a scenario to then be forced to redo the whole thing based on e.g. one unlucky modifier. I couldn't find anyone else online who mentioned this as an issue with GH. I like your idea of a "fail-forward", it would make everything so much smoother.

[@therrin1138]

Great review! As a long time Gloomhaven player (waiting for Frosthaven to arrive), I enjoyed hearing your different perspective on the game. Amy, since you love surprises and opening boxes, please, please play Pandemic Legacy Season One. It was the #1 game on BGG before Gloomhaven came along. SO many boxes to open and changes to the game as you play! It remains one of my best gaming experiences ever.

[@MegzMcMegz]

I second this recommendation wholeheartedly

[@writerian]

Wow! What an awesome review. I have much to think about before I take the leap. Thanks so much!

[@letsstartplaying]

Thanks for your review! Very inciteful. As a big Gloomhaven player I was mostly interested in your thoughts on the outpost phase and I agree surprises are the best!

[@truelifetales]

Wonderful video as always. I'm drawn in by all the likes of this game - and they're much the same that brought me to picking up Gloomhaven when I did. The 'no fail forward' grind was definitely a game killer for us. After numerous attempts at one scenario in particular, we began fudging some of the hits and kills - which wasn't fair to us or to the spirit of the game. Add to it that the fact that we align with you as far as general taste in games: generally real-world settings, Euro-style, one-off, non-coop. Keep up the great work and have a lovely holiday trip!

[@olloplays]

My partner and I attempted Jaws of the Lion and quit halfway through. It just felt like we were trying and trying to get excited about it but it never happened. Playing that at 2p was just unfun for the two of us but I love hearing that Frosthaven has some interesting differences and maybe would be enjoyable. This video was incredibly helpful 🙌

[@VaultBoy13]

I would imagine you'd feel pretty similar about this. The core combat is the same. The characters are a bit more complex, but not enough that they'd suddenly make the game more enjoyable. And, while the in-between scenarios is beefed up to have more game, it's a pretty minor aspect of the game. 75-80% of your time will be spent in the scenarios.

[@simondeqin]

A bold step for your gaming taste and an awesome review

[@therealhairybadger]

Love the review. Yup, agree, an organiser of some sort is a must. It speeds set up considerably and also aids when revealing the new rooms etc. Another thing to consider is replacing the standee bases with hexes and dice. You set up your monsters w total hit points and reduce the dice as they get hit so you don't have to keep track half as much of how many hits taken from their total. We use numbered poker chips for initiative order too, placing them next to the monster stat card showing order. Lots of little things all speed up set up and play and help you really get the story going.

[@rainfallprojects501]

Great review, thanks! Would love to pick up frosthaven one day.

[@skully2011]

Enjoyed the review, very excited to get to play it myself, especially hearing that, as new players, you liked it more than you expected. Also very exciting that the narrative is strong; the lack of a strong unifying narrative was one of the weaknesses of Gloomhaven. The criticisms seem pretty fair, I think I’m going to buy an insert to mitigate the organization bit. As another commenter mentioned, the potions should be one use per scenario (GH and JotL were that way), and you likely unlock better versions as you go along (that’s how GH was). I think I’ll be back to see more of your reviews in the future.

[@servo3000]

Awesome video! My wife and I are halfway through Jaws of the Lion and are feeling a bit fatigued. It looks like Frosthaven would be a better fit for us in terms of theme and long-term progress with the village. A stronger narrative is a plus too.

[@pasiojala3227]

You can adjust the scenario level to reduce the number of failed scenarios. And house-rules are always okay to implement fail-forward. Inspiration "should be" used for PQ unlocks to compensate for the less characters retiring, not for material resources. The loot cards already scale the material resources according to the number of characters. I have had no lack of material resources playing with 2 (or maybe I'm just excellent at collecting the loot tokens), they mostly affect the order in which to build things. All in all, the game provides a constant stream of hard choices -- often with contradictory goals, and the top-bottom action system is genious. And while I wasn't sure about the new loot system and crafting, both ended up being exciting improvements to the system. Edit: I just ended up having another box for the monsters, then everything else fits nicely in the box. I also reinforced the L-shaped insert with self-adhesive clear plastic (the one used for book covers).

[@Cissewis]

Thanks so much for covering this one, really loved your perspectives as euro gamers!

[@rmsgrey]

One observation: as I understand it, Inspiration is intended primarily to be used for unlocking new buildings, with the wild resource option mostly there for 4-player parties that might never get the 15 Inspiration to complete an extra PQ at retirement.

[@ralfn9629]

Congrats on your journey into the .....haven-world. Great review, and I am not surprised that you like the gameplay. I am interested in Frosthaven, as Gloomhaven is in my top 10. But I have yet to finish the 1. big box and JotL. So I will pick up Frosthaven much later at Retail. LOL on Maggie's "Standees are also 3D - just not flashed out..." What a line! I agree: the house Rule "never repeat a scenario" is a must. On storage, I used 8 of the tiny plano-boxes from our hardware shops here in Melbourne (I gave you a sample at the Go-night we had). This worked for Gloomhaven brilliantly, with some minor storage tweaks for all the monster cards and monster character card, and a self-made folder for all the map-tiles.

[@mattmoffitt5912]

Completely agree on the never repeat a scenario. I am willing to do that, but my partner HATES to repeat them. Yes, it's not the rules as written, but it lets us both enjoy a great game. When this happens we'll usually penalize ourselves with goals not counting even if they were achieved, or no scenario based xp. One of the great things about board games is that we can house rule stuff like this to make it more enjoyable.

[@rmsgrey]

@@mattmoffitt5912 We have occasionally repeated a scenario when it's just fallen flat from the start, but, yeah, in general, we just cheat in a win and move on.

[@ralfn9629]

@@rmsgrey It's not really cheating if you only take the loot you keep anyway for a lost scenario. As Matt said you are not taking anything else. Ok new locations might be a bit cheating. But let's not tell anybody!

[@PlayGamzWithMe]

Terrific review! Very well thought out with high energy! Thank you so much!

[@saluk7419]

For fail forward, we had a similar experience with Gloomhaven until we realized that we didn't have to stick to the designer notes and could play however was fun for us. We will play a scenario once on the suggested level, and then drop the level and replay it if we lose. If we have to do a scenario a third time we drop the scenario to 0 and cut whatever corners we need to in the rules to pass. Sometimes we even do the first play starting one level below the recommended level. It's still fun and a lot less frustrating.

[@jparish1987]

I've played over a hundred hours of Gloomhaven, we are playing game 5 of Frosthaven tonight. Really enjoyed your takes on the game!

[@ThirithCH]

Thanks a lot for this preview! My wife and I are currently playing Jaws of the Lion, and I've been wondering whether we should continue with Frosthaven afterwards. I'm still not fully decided, but I loved watching your video, and it's fun listening to the two of you talking.

[@Sufinsil]

3D Printed (or purchased) inserts/organizers were a must for Gloomhaven. Helps a lot with setup.

[@odgregg]

Great overview and format of likes and dislikes! So..... Oathsworn is next week? 🙂

[@KitMagnification]

I'm really looking forward to receiving my copy in the post. Like you say, I hope there's more clarity on the town aspect by then.

[@dwaynevanvalen]

Buying a 3rd party insert/organizer is a must for Gloomhaven/Frosthaven

[@st0ox]

I just don't put it back in the box. I put the monster bags and map tiles in a simple box and put it together with the inlays in a hidden storage next to my table without storing it really dense. Takes me 5 minutes to set everything up.

[@Michal_Peterka]

@@st0ox We are using a box from hardware store with separated spaces. Propably intended for screws, it has transparent cover, so it is much faster to find proper monsters. Then we started using app like gloomhaven secretary. Again less unpacking and packing of the game. And then we decided to use simple 3d printed color hexes for special terrains instead original ones. It is not so nice but much easier to recognize what terrain is what and much faster for preparing the map.

[@andrerodrigues2036]

Dunno if this is what you meant, but potions aren’t one time use, they are once per scenario use. At least thats the way they work in Gloomhaven

[@st0ox]

Sleeping Gods implemented the failing forward pretty well.

[@drasher25]

Thank you for this excellent review. I was very curious to know what you would think of the combat system. I think it is very mechanically solid and interesting, and I really enjoy it EXCEPT for the part where you have to pick a card to get rid of. I just don't like the way that *feels,* and I think I actually prefer when you lose one randomly. I think I would love this game unreservedly if it weren't for this aspect, but as it is I find it wears me down because I really don't jibe well with that card drain mechanism. Another more minor ding for me, was that I found combats often ended in a very gamey way, because I had to delay killing the last monster until I could collect all the loot.

[@jamesewing509]

Did I notice that your adventuring party was called S Club? (There ain’t no party like an S Club party) I’ve been a little nervous about the town building and resources. I thought that it might be trying to add too much. Glad to hear that you enjoyed it.

[@francopdx]

Thanks for the look into this game and your thoughts on it. I've played Jaws of the Lion with friends and really enjoyed it. I'm curious to try out the new outpost mechanic.

[@JJEMcManus]

Excellent review but you didn’t mention what characters you started with. Picking a first mercenary is daunting and I would like to know what you picked and why.

[@williamfaughnan6298]

Good on you for covering such a huge game that's totally out of your element. Loved your input on both the likes and dislikes!! Note: while there is no fail forward system, I think it's fair to consider that anyone embarking on this journey accept that it's meant to be a long treacherous journey and not a "wham bam, move onto the next thing immediately" kind of experience. You're in it for the long haul, so having to repeat once in a while is par for the course. If anyone's starting this thinking they're gonna zip through it they've got another thing coming lol.

[@sidneyleejohnson]

Very interesting thought about fail-forward. Now I'm wanting to recheck Oathsworn as to what happens if you don't defeat the boss. I haven't failed yet so I'm drawing a blank as to what happens. A lot of people don't realize games like this are Euro in disguise... lol.

[@eimwolliballa]

Good review! I have played around 30 scenarios of Gloomhaven. Then I put it away. And I think it won't hit the table again because it takes way to much setup time for my liking.

[@joopdevliegers]

you can halve your setup time with a couple of apps :)

[@eimwolliballa]

@@joopdevliegers I don't like apps in board games. And right now I like playing a lot of other games more than Gloomhaven. Maybe some day... 😉

[@oerthling]

"General distaste for the battling"? Wait, what?! ;-) This game at its core is a tactical puzzle. Sure, I'm looking forward to building up Frosthaven, but how is it possible to like this game at all if you don't enjoy the battles? The lack of fail-forward is not really a downside, because nothing keeps you from just doing that. To me it would be unsatisfactory. I want to beat it. And the risk of failure creates tension that makes winning more enjoyable. But anybody that dislikes that too much, just skip. :-) But it's always entertaining to see reviews from your POV.

[@strinh808]

Maggie's sound effect for drawing nulls/curses is hilarious. They should add it to the -haven helper apps 😂

[@sidneyleejohnson]

Once E-Raptor has a Frosthaven insert you might like that the best over LaserOx or FoldedSpace inserts.

[@VaultBoy13]

I'm a big fan of dungeon crawlers, and the lack of failing forward is one of my biggest complaints with Frosthaven. I'd rather have failure consequences that have to be dealt with than having to retry scenarios until success. Additionally, I really miss the map books from Jaws of the Lion. It cut out so much setup time. I'd have happily paid a large chunk of money to have that in Frosthaven. The best parts are the hand management, character development, and the retirement system.

[@bryanscollick8305]

You should run through Jaws of the Lion. It’s a good story, but the map books are really great. I am not surprised you enjoyed it as Gloom/Frosthaven are euro games at their core. Hand and resource management, min/maxing, it’s a euro dungeon crawler.

[@imbaba1976]

I think playing Frosthaven without any experience of the 'haven' world is a big jump in the dark

[@cgulde1]

I only skimmed the comments so I am not sure if this was addressed. While there isn't a "Fail Forward" option (technically you can just say you passed if you only want the story). You can lower the difficulty, change characters, or come back to a scenario later after you level up (also keep difficulty on low even after you level up). Frosthaven is more challenging than Gloomhaven OG or Jaws of the Lion. Not really meant for someone to just jump into Frosthaven without playing either of the predecessors.

[@malcolmsleight9334]

Ideally you should only play Frosthaven after getting Gloomhaven experience. In my opinion, the starting classes in Frosthaven are mid to upper level classes in Gloomhaven.

[@johnhedberg9728]

Nice review! Gloomhaven /Frosthaven are games I can appreciate the design but are not games for me. I have played about 30 hours and have no desire to ever table again.

[@ChadFromSpace]

Just curious, is the unclearness regarding the outpost, sort of by design? As in, if you and 3 other people showed up to a ramshackle outpost, you would have to decide as a group what you should be repairing based on whats going on around you.

[@fishizer]

Were you able to try out the Frosthaven Helper app?

[@firechickenreviews]

Great review :)

[@wicked8576]

bäm! if this was your first game of Gloomhaven, it must have defintely been a big challenge to get into it.. :) really curious about your opinion on it.. I love both, Gloomhaven and Jaws of the Lion, and am really looking forward to digging into Frosthaven along with my three friends I have been playing GH with for over 50 times now.. ^^

[@boogersig86]

Am I the only one to understand that there are boss miniatures in the box, as well, or did they mistakenly call the standees that? I'm eager for my copy to start painting, but had no idea there might be more minis than just the heroes

[@Oaklestat]

Its funny because i feel that Gloomhaven is a 100% Dry Euro. With a tacked on story. Extremely mechanical. Now i love Euros and i love RPGs. I think love love of RPGs got in the way of me liking it. Fell completely flat for my wife and I after half a dozen so plays.

[@ThymeKeeper]

This is my problem with most legacy or campaign games. You can easily screw yourself early on by picking the wrong upgrades and you may have such a time investment in it by the time you realize your mistake that it feels like wasted time. I have quit more than one campaign for that reason. Honestly it's the exact same thing with many heavy Euros, when you start playing you don't know what actions to take. You get halfway though and realize that, yeah, I am out of this game and there's two hours to go. At least then it's a one time thing and you may choose to play again, forewarned and forearmed. If you've already played many hours across multiple session you may be less well disposed to the game in general.

[@GGdeTOURS37]

We like you videos but did hate Gloomhaven so not interested at all by this one either! Keep the faith and make other great videos on other (better) games!

[@nirszi]

Oh how much I agree with you on the No Fail Forward/Just let me experience the story issue. Total and complete turn off for me.

[@DeOmri]

Are you sure that you are euro gamers and not "just" gamers at this point? :) The "no fail forward" issue isn't really a matter for the type of game, it is a design choice for this particular item.

[@Noldrokon]

Unfortunately too big and toooooo expansive for my familiy.

[@Vadjong]

To me, these kind of projects always scream: 'child-that-has-all-the-toys' syndrome 🤔

[@uxjared]

Yes of course. It’s not the euro decisions meets rpg video game, it’s just that we are all just spoiled children compared to you and your exquisite tastes.