DS 3 | Why We Invade (and current state of DS 3)

[@RucaBurankee]

I just wished people who complain about invaders tried smashing at least those 5 cracked eye orbs Leonhard gives you at the beginning of the game and see with their own eyes the point of invasions and of the invader mentality That's all I would want There's a reason the game, since ds1, gave you cracked orbs since the first area of the game, and it's because it's trying to tell you that invasions and invaders are the norm and the rightful balancing to coopers or just "people using benefits" (embered health, summons...) But all they see is the lore (darkwraights, sinners, killers, assassins) and the gameplay aspects (red man comes and kills me even tho I resummoned my SL200 sunbro 6 times, all while I didn't even try complying or trying to ease the situation by actually trying to face him head on after losing my summon) and so they think they have been robbed of something they never worked to get (embers should really have been WAAAY more scarce in DS3 imo) I really wish that if Elden Ring will get invasions (as we all hope) the invasion reward will be something as valuable as embered health gameplay wise, but it will be waaay more rare (imagine if embered health was only obtainable by completing a "summon session", invasion or small questline) making even PvErs wanna invade it would make the two sides of the community less toxic towards each others imo

[@iamamish]

Great points! I think it would be fantastic if everyone did that. I also never thought about it, but you're right about the way you get those 5 cracked orbs in the beginning of the game.

[@lovewilcox6874]

I’d like it if the next game gave you upgrade materials as an invasion reward (like DS1 woods) but with a rare chance to earn a slab. Then we’d see more of an incentive to invade IMO.

[@justusmuller9445]

People who unironically complain about invaders don't know what they're talking about. This discussion shouldn't even exist. Get off reddit.

[@iamamish]

The only point of disagreement i have is that if you made things like embers more rare, people would use them less often, and there would be fewer invasions, and more disconnects in those few invasions.

[@RucaBurankee]

I guess solohost would be less likely to get invaded, but the community as a whole would start organizing more organic coop sessions (like using "fixed" passwords to help people who find the game too hard and such) Also, this reward doesn't have to be a requirement to get invaded (I really liked the fact in ds2 you're technically never safe from invasions, even with bosses dead and being non human you're just less likely to be targeted) Would make it waaay more interesting if we had different tiers of hosts imo 1) with summons and the bonus 2) with summons 3) with no summons but bonus 4) generic clueless solohost probably on his first run Idk if it would work, I'm probably overlooking something important, but it would be nice

[@Nexus-.9]

"So desperate to win that they forget why they play a game"

[@iamamish]

As there are fewer players left, ego becomes a huge factor. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@Nexus-.9]

@@iamamish I'm guilty of this I must admit, although I'm sure we all are. Seen you waiting and trying to lure them into mobs rather than take them head on (this is what I consider playing the game) but I'm guilty of going extra tryhard for those wins...

[@iamamish]

@@Nexus-.9 Are you suggesting I should have taken them head on?

[@Nexus-.9]

@@iamamish that's just me personally bro, but, yes rather than waste my own game time on trying to coax them into mobs I'd have died trying to break through or killed them and it's the "supposedly impossible" fights that will improve you at this stage as you talked about time to skill improvement, it'll be the tough fights that push you. But that's just my opinion and everyone will play there way

[@newage777777]

@@Nexus-.9 2v1 is considered a suicide mission, unless you are going against noobs or players with bad pvp skills.

[@cowboy2631]

People love trashing invaders but what about organized ganks, filled with players with st swords, healing miracles and sorcerers. You know those players, you've probably died to them at some point. Those players that point down , drop dung pies and act super toxic. Ironic how people hate invaders but actively organize ganks without progressing through the game just to gang up on a player that's using a game mechanic to pvp with other players

[@iamamish]

Amen!

[@oski8607]

I mean you make the choice of dropping into someone’s world in the first place.

[@cowboy2631]

Angry Dodo Yeah and its totally cool if hosts dont wanna fight or dislike invaders. That wasnt my point. In any case, it’s not like im exploiting some hack or using cheats to enter someone else’s game. Just using an ingame mechanic

[@iamamish]

@@oski8607 yes I do not care for the idea that because I initiated PvP, that somehow makes me responsible for anything that happens afterward, as if I'm being punished for playing the game. They're only 'invasions' from a lore perspective - it's just PvP in a video game.

[@oski8607]

@@cowboy2631 and its their choice to do the same. if they dont want to deal with invaders they should be able to do whatever they can to stop said invader

[@mr.sillydog3981]

I dunno what you're talking about, I play this game to grief the noob lightrolling Dark LKS + Small Shield user with his two noob SL802 phantoms at meta Pontiff. Get a grip dude everybody just invades for easy wins and to make other people have a bad time.

[@notproioxis9631]

This makes no sense unless the guy who reads the post knows beforehand who both of you are. Loving your streams, guys.

[@WheresTheSauce]

(with hatemail)

[@junoglrr9119]

I dont invade to give players a bad time, i do it to give me a good time.

[@firelinkknight]

True, true

[@thatmotivatedchris6749]

@@junoglrr9119 same

[@Sir_slugcat]

I was invaded by some interesting folk. He wave and i wave back but the invader used his shield and i also used my shield. We fought with our shields and a blue sentinel was summoned because i had the way of blue covenant but he stood there watching the invader and i fight. A anor londor knight notice me and shot a arrow at me and the invader waited until i defeated the knight. I defeated the knight and the invader threw the rock that said "very good" and we begin to fight again. The invader was winning and we both didn't use our flask and when I was at low health he stopped attacking he wave and left the world. I find that interesting because other invaders would just do there job. Its also sad because that may never happened again but i must say its fun getting invaded

[@thegk-verse4216]

I ended up with someone using caestus. As I am a caestus main myself, this fight was far from the usual sloppy duel.p It was tekken at this point. Very few pauses, no perseverance and roll spam. Pure skill with every single move. More intense than a 4 mans gank. An aldritch and a blue just sit on the back, rooting for one or another. I lost cause lag though :(

[@ynotds6205]

I’ve done that many times. If I see that host is a cool guy, or someone just trying to get through the level I will give Him some ambers and leave their world.

[@KanekiKen-fc3qo]

Something similar has happened to me, I've got like 40 so far into the game and I've played through the main story with 3 different characters what I've noticed is that when I get invaded early into the game, I tend to have a lot more fun than when I'm a higher SL because even when I have an ally to help me out, he'll be super chill and let me have my 1v1 without stepping in to ruin it. I'm new to the game so I'm trash at pvp so far but man invading has turned me off big time. I've tried to be a cool invader by bowing or letting them deal with some NPCs before stepping in but they always act cool until they get close enough and then immediately start ganking me. It's legitimately sad cause I'm just trying to have a good time and seems to me that people are more concerned with wins than having a fun fight.

[@Eiroth]

@@KanekiKen-fc3qo This is definitely true. I've gradually started playing more and more ruthlessly over time. Against solo hosts I will still always give them a chance to set the terms of engagement (or just refuse if they really don't want to fight), but as soon as there are two or more people in the world I start looking for ambushes and ways to lure them into the level. People often say that there's no honour in invasions, and with groups I definitely agree. But lone hosts you can usually give a chance, at least until they start running away or pointing down.

[@lukeeatschips6324]

Result of the invader being respectful and the sentinel letting people have fun : 3 happy people, 1 shared happy memories Regular invasion : 1 happy , 1 angry

[@pincognito1938]

Why we invade: more or less like you said, there is categorically nothing else like it. Good stuff, amish.

[@iamamish]

Hi Pinco, and you can't really explain it to somebody who hasn't done it. Kinda like being intimate.

[@lovewilcox6874]

iamamish Except invasions last longer ;)

[@riskleaf6079]

As a invader myself I have to disagree on you passivity point. In my eyes a host has every right to do whatever they need to get you killed. Vice versa with us.

[@iamamish]

I never suggested (or at least never intended to suggest) that they don't have the right to play passively.

[@riskleaf6079]

@@iamamish Oh my bad. I must have inferred it with your dislike of the tactic. I dun goofed.

[@iamamish]

@@riskleaf6079 no worries. I find it frustrating but they're welcome to play that way. In turn, I'm free to run to the mobs and make them play the level.

[@BigDave18]

@@iamamish well id expect the people who gank think your playing unfairly.

[@iamamish]

the big cheese how so?

[@Jeenine]

Make sure to drop a like to Amish, he always has some quality vids and they take a lot of time and effort to create

[@lovewilcox6874]

I always do bro 👍

[@Toccoooo]

inb4 someone likes this comment and not the actual vid

[@iamamish]

Thanks JeeNiNe!!

[@PackLeader-1990]

This dude is so dedicated he makes graphs for ds3. Much respect.

[@iamamish]

@@PackLeader-1990 thanks packleader :)

[@memoryylosss5013]

Invade till Elden Ring. That's about all that would satisfy me anyway

[@iamamish]

WORD

[@tealeaf391]

Good stuff Amish, the part about this ultra passivity really rings true. Last week it took a party of three 36 mins to start playing the level in the catacombs. I made dinner during that invasion, chicken satay btw.

[@posseslayer280]

Great, now I'm hungry

[@iamamish]

The problem is of course that it is such a strong strategy, albeit a totally boring way to play the game for hosts and their phantoms. The other challenge is that as the game ages, the probability that the phantoms are partied up and on a mic is close to 100%, so they can coordinate with each other more easily than randoms.

[@posseslayer280]

@@iamamish True. You rarely find random co-opers lately.

[@tealeaf391]

@@iamamish I wish there was an gesture for 'get on the damn bridge already!'

[@iamamish]

@@tealeaf391 "I'm here to make funny montages, not another dish of chicken satay"

[@davidf3974]

The next game better have none of this I can't get invaded if I killed the boss shit; what a way to decrease game activity

[@iamamish]

I've thought about this, and I think that's why DS 2 invasions had to be on a timer. Even if you enable invasions in a world in which the boss is dead, the host has to have a way of getting rid of the invader in order to progress the game. So maybe they can still go through the boss fog to send the invader home.

[@davidf3974]

@@iamamish I like that idea over an invasion timer or a lack of solution at all. At least then fog running, a technique already available, would be a solution for a host too cowardly to fight and solve the issue of potential invaders engaging in the same behavior (just saying, there are some really good hiding spots), without resulting in suicide to avoid confrontation being the new widespread alternative to dc'ing.

[@UserOfTheZune]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler Yeah man, sick of fog wall runners that re summon given the chance and attempt pot shots through a barrier they know you can't see through, all while pretending that they're noob and just want to progress when you actually contact them. Hopefully if there's a similar mechanic in ER, it's a simple cut off for the host/invader!

[@robinh7745]

They want you to constantly progress into the game to get to NG+7, to still progress in the story. Or to change your character. Developers didn't want you to stay in a same spot for ever. They conceived invaders as a challenge, not a blocking process.

[@robinh7745]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler The problem would be that the invader would just hide waiting the host to enter the fogwall… to get its reward. The current Dark Souls 3 is actually pretty well designed.

[@AkilZodiac]

11:06 This is my exact thought process. After all the passivity, all the waiting, all the running, and even sometimes just straight up avoiding me, I won't reward cowardly blues with a free concord from a host that wants to either play hyper passive with his 3 phantoms or fog wall me. I have no sympathy for the concord grind when this is how you treat the invasion.

[@iamamish]

Yup. I was also a bit frustrated by the fact that I let the host finish fighting the NPC when I arrived. Now, that doesn't create an obligation for the host by an stretch, but I had hoped it would demonstrate that I'm here for fun, not to just mindlessly arrest the host's progress as soon as I was given a chance.

[@thatmotivatedchris6749]

Agree

[@thatmotivatedchris6749]

@@iamamish feels like a lot of invasions I've been in. And i play as an Abyss Watcher all the time so I usually don't win

[@josephcola9662]

IK. As a blue, I go after the invader, with or without the host. If the host is passive, I either get lucky and get my Concord, or die and get ressumoned to the same world because the host is still waiting there 20 minutes later. TBH, this behavior from hosts honestly makes me find it easier to farm the silver knights. I'll get souls more reliably, and I honestly have a better chance at getting a concord than dying to a host who just keeps waiting.

[@fiasworkshop]

@@josephcola9662 blues are just whites in disguise

[@slipNslideproduction]

>Different infusion types earlier in the game. Laughs in Profaned Coal

[@iamamish]

Yeah, that kinda sucks for our dark builds

[@quality8133]

giant coal as well

[@josephcola9662]

I had an invasion yesterday, on a pure pyro character abys was on my 6th attempt to kill the Stray (asylum) Demon and got invaded. I had juat broken it's legs when I saw the invader nearby an resigned myself to ending up as an easy kill, because I was a solo host fighting a PvE miniboss, but he let me kill the demon first. Even though I had 5 left at the time, I gave the guy an Ember for being honorable, and then he black crystal'd out. And then a blue showed up 20 seconds later. (Which is about half of the matches I get as a blue on my good character) The guy msg'd me afterwards and he was actually really nice. We had a good chat, and that was that. Then I went on to solo the abyss watchers at lv 36 on my first try with that character. I wish I could get more invasions like that. Rather than some invaders... I'm looking at you, AreoCrazed, with your passive Ringed Knight Ultras, Left Bumper spam only, 7 estus, hide in the mobs with 2 blessed weapons, 10 duped siegbrau, duped divine blessing, and after I ended up exhausting all that because you suck, you black crystal'd to deny the 3 blues who showed up because you took so goddxmn long running away while I chased you through literally the entirely of the Pontiff to Anor Londo Area on NG4. You are the SINGLE most toxic player I have ever faced, even more so than the Havel Moster with the Curse Ward who spammed Soothing Sunlight in the corner with unfalterting prayer as a Spear of the Church. If you end up reading this, go fxck yourself.

[@iamamish]

Joseph Cola yeah I have no patience for that type of thing and would much prefer to not face a solo host while he’s contending with PVE. That said, a Spear healing is more understandable because they have no healing estus. I try to take it a case at a time. I’m not trying to win at all costs, I’m trying to have fun, and hoping to make the host’s game more enjoyable too.

[@josephcola9662]

@@iamamish Yeah, I get a Spear of the Church healing is perfectly reasonable when the host can have up to 15 estus and can have 3 summons with up to 7 each, but when I'm by myself, do you REALLY need to use a curseward, as a havel, and only heal in the corner where I can't backstab you out of it? I mean for Christ's sake, if you want Spear Ornaments THAT badly, just go offline and farm halflight.

[@knightornstein2173]

@joseph cola.... I love you so much for this message this sums up dark souls 3 pvp in a nutshell while we find the rare helpful invaders but your last story at the bottom is how it is ALOT lately... as for me i look at it this way Anyone who Invades me expects me to chase n follow them to fight but NO they will fight on my terms and a area of my choosing i highly advise hosts to do this and keep it in mind be aware of your surroundings and use it hope this helps and take sweet revenge on those bastards

[@gabri9886]

Part of the charm of souls pvp is literally there is nothing like it. Unlike fighting games, you get to choose how to play your character. It might not have the amount of mechanics those games have, but it makes up for it with a full 3d controls and a wide array of weapons that you can change on the fly and personalize ur gameplay the way u want and not the way the devs want u to play with those preset moveset that they give u on each character for fighting games. Invasions also include you using the environment to ur advantage and try to outsmart the other player. I havent seen any game that allows u to visit another players world and challenge how far better they have gotten in the game from playing monsters. After finishing the game, you take all the progess and put it to the test by playing other players. Invading is a mechanic unique to souls games since most games that have online can only have access through menus while in souls its seamless and organic with barely any menus to go through. Pve monsters are computer-generated intelligence that will have a pattern that u can abuse. The first time you fight a monster, it might be challenging and with that challenge comes the fun. The second, third, forth..etc however, that challenge will wane and thus the fun follows after it. The reason it was a challenge is because of the unknown. You don't know how that monster behaves. As soon as u kill it 3 or 4 times you get the gist of it and it becomes less challenging and eventually less interesting and fun. In pvp however, a player will have an unpredictable pattern since they will think to outsmart u just like how ur thinking to outsmart them. This will always keep the unknown present thus allowing it to prolong the challenge and with challenge there will be fun. This is pvp and invasions is an example of that pvp that takes it to a whole new level due to the reasons I mentioned above in the first paragraph. Good vid amish and keep it up bud

[@iamamish]

In Gabri's world, invaders are like bad AI and dispatched as quickly. Thanks Gabri, I totally agree with everything you wrote.

[@robinh7745]

100% agree with you! And as you said, this online mode is "naturally" integrated into the game, no need to wait the opening of a party. It's really specific to this series. You never have the feeling to waste your time. Moreover, this is also completely consistent with the lore of the game, the invaders, the need to coop, this Eternal loop of fighting to survive in this undead world.

[@josephcola9662]

Well, Doom Eternal is going to have invasions, where you can invade the slayer as demons, and even do so with friends. Of course, he's a Slayer, so he can kill you FAR more easily than you can kill him, but hey, invasions will no longer be unique to Souls come November...

[@Battleguild]

I hope Elden Ring implements some way to do continuous coop, even after the boss is defeated. If there is Magic in Elden Ring, I hope it gets DS2 levels of love and not the Baby Ocelot treatment.

[@Humandust666]

lol this comment about the magic tho. hell yeah brother

[@iamamish]

'the baby ocelot treatment' - top tier observation!

[@0TTERBRO]

Im somewhat new to darksouls, what do you mean ocelot treatment?

[@iamamish]

Nate Ferland Baby Ocelot is the baby from the Oceiros boss fight. He smashes the baby while attacking you. The baby model was removed from the models in the game.

[@patriciofloresgarcia7200]

Damn, seeing this footage takes me back to one invasion in 2016/2017 when I invaded a host and his phantom at pontiff. They were both using the white tree branch to hide and it took me an embarrassingly long time to find them, but when I did, I didn’t rush in. I removed my weapon and put on Smough’s armor and a dress (I had the very vertical helmet, forgot the name, the one made from bandages). I goofed around putting on and off the ring that makes you a phantom and sometime later they both rolled and had the exact same setup as I! We had a couple minutes of emotes and then a fistfight to the death (no one healed) in which I lost. Honestly, I’ve got a bunch of good invasion stories that are better, but this one’s a fun and heart warming memory of why invasions can be one of the best experiences.

[@manicmoorfish2383]

I use to love invading back in the day but not just to win. It was fun being an obstacle for players like the environment itself, a part of their journey. You don’t get the fun interactions anymore, there’s no messing about, just a bunch of folks who wanna kill you instantly with no challenge. But I have many good memories from the past, those are what I’ll hold onto. Nice video!

[@snowboarddan5899]

I never invade but am addicted to creating different play throughs

[@matriarchofazure7607]

I actually like invasions. Whenever I get invaded, I'm actually kind of happy, because someone actually wants to challenge me, and I love to see activity in the game. It gives me such a rush. I don't get salty if I lose, because I still have fun, and tried. Anything is viable as long as you enjoy it.

[@iamamish]

AlmightyLydia what a great attitude. I’m glad you enjoy it. I much prefer hosts who embrace the challenge to scared hosts who don’t want to engage.

[@themanwholaughs9194]

I'm actually editing a video for my channel where I was in a game session with a host and his password team that lasted nearly an hour due to the very passive/stalemating you are describing. You pretty much covered the main point, though. More people should try to invade if they haven't. To think that there are people that have loved these games for years and haven't touched the invasion mechanic (they really exist, I've talked to them) boogles me.

[@iamamish]

Ultimately I think it is a game design flaw. I think the host needs a reason to progress the game.

[@iamamish]

I also really enjoyed Saint Riot's video on taking hosts hostage when they do this. It flips the whole passive idea on its head. Obviously doing that requires a lot of patience.

[@torahibiki]

So you guys want to force people to do something that they want to do. Something that should be optional and be initiated in their own volition? Yeah what great way to get people on your side by frustrating and forcing them to take part in something that they may have not even wanted to in tge first place. Some people like myself just dislike the notion of multiplayer competitive due to one reason or another. Yet I love the single player aspect of such games. And it isn't something as simple as "well just play offline" like everyone is gonna notice that it can be turn off in their first playthrough. You guys want more people to play these games and get into them yet you grief potential new players by being complicit to a system that can't deferentiate between, noob or parry king.

[@themanwholaughs9194]

@@torahibiki this discussion was from a year ago, but all right. We, as in people who sometimes invade, cannot really force anyone to do anything. The game dictates what it dictates. The Souls games have been here for about ten years now and this unique style of game, if you are playing online, means that you might and will get invaded. This is the game. The game you want to play is not the game you are playing. So if you're sticking around awhile and trying more than one of the Souls games and plan to play more of them in the future, why not try everything the game has to offer? It will only make you a better player, which in turn will only make you a better phantom to help your host.

[@torahibiki]

@@themanwholaughs9194 case in point why sekiro ditched the idea. And to my joy it was a welcomed addition. So you cant say for certain if future games will embrace these mechanics. Even if miyazaki only directed and not wrote the game.

[@AA11196]

I don’t mind invasions but it’s very annoying when you are playing with a friend and someone decides to invade and proceeds to run around the area like a bitch when they can’t win. If I had something to improve it it should be to where invaders and the person being invaded can only stick to a specific radius around the area.

[@lovewilcox6874]

I grief players by wearing out their weapon durability with my face. Can you ever forgive me for my heinous actions?! Also, Onion head and Fatty Knight torso is top tier fashion 👍

[@iamamish]

Can't tell if your comment about my fashion is sarcastic, and I'm so fashion impaired even I can't tell if it is any good or not. :(

[@iamamish]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler :|

[@lovewilcox6874]

iamamish I’m being honest my dude. I mean, I must think it looks good as I used the same combo in my last video xD

[@iamamish]

Love Wilcox thnx mate - I get a lot of shit about my fashion. ;)

[@iamamish]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler I know, it's must be so annoying that they're all copying you :P

[@theonetruemadao5207]

I fought a duo running the vordt + shield build yesterday, very irritating to fight. I am a new player on my first play through, I have been soloing everything so far and constantly find my self fighting groups of invaders. Try just beating the pontiff and being ambushed in the middle of fighting a ton of deacons, outnumbered outleveled, and fighting the PVE. Sometimes the fights are fun, but 7 out of 10 times invaders try to drag me through the PVE. Some people come to fight, others come for resources or trolling.

[@iamamish]

So invaders will almost never out-level you, and will almost always be below your SL, due to the way the matchmaking works. Generally speaking invaders won't run to the mobs unless they're up against multiple players. I know this can be frustrating as a host, but if an invader tries to fight your party straight-up, the stunlock mechanism means they can easily die due to a single mistake.

[@DemoniteBL]

I almost only do arena PvP. I'm not sure if I'm ever gonna get into invasions, especially if they're getting worse over time.

[@iamamish]

You can still find some really good ones. I like duels too, but invasions are my favorite.

[@BedfastHealer78]

Invasions aren't even invasions anymore. Invasions are like "hey, I want a really hard challenge, I'll go get ganked!" Not by players who are playing the level either, just by players who are huddled up in a room or have cleared out the enemies and want a 3/4v1/2 That's basically invasions. Every now and then you'll invade someone actually playing the level, but about half (or more) the time they'll just disconnect or settle for running back to the bonfire to summon and sit there to wait on you. This scenario isn't bad either, usually those are pretty winnable. Heck 3/4 v 1s used to be winnable, but the chart at the end of the vid tells it perfectly. People are just too savvy to any "quick kill" mistakes so you have to whittle away at 3 health bars while they all attack you... I mean if you ask me, the griefing has turned into a host-oriented hobby

[@rudrod95_41]

The game is dead why would they be playing the game through again if they've already seen everything. What youre looking for is gone. The game is like what 3 4 years old already

[@ariesignitor6856]

@@rudrod95_41 that answer isn't exactly accurate, "stagnating" is a far better term for this. A game like this doesn't really die off, even after 4 years. hell, ds2 on the ps3 is still fairly active in the present. although, I do agree with you on the fact that what most invaders are looking for is mostly gone nowadays.

[@rudrod95_41]

@@ariesignitor6856 it's dead

[@ariesignitor6856]

@@rudrod95_41 ok, so your just gonna say it's dead again, without giving any reasoning or anything.... ok then.

[@rudrod95_41]

@@ariesignitor6856 it's dead like I hope this conversation Will be

[@epsdudez]

I guess you're right about gankers and the average players being much better than they were one or two years. It's funny to think how much the meta has changed. Everyone used to run around with SS and medium shield/caestus and hornet ring, and it was *the* optimal build for the time. New era, new me.

[@iamamish]

Yup, and here's another way it has changed - invaders used to parry quite a bit, and hosts almost never. Now it is nearly the opposite (not totally). Hosts have a much bigger edge parrying, since they have more whiffed parry insurance than invaders do (insurance both in the sense of more estus, and in the sense of phantoms to cover them when they whiff and get beat up).

[@devinburns2535]

I normally dont gank with the host if a phantom invades. Unless the invader starts healing or trying to utilize the maps enemies against them.

[@TheNamelessScholarOfficial]

The only reason why I don't PvP is because I don't pay for PSN

[@ericjrthered4365]

I want to get swordgrass for the watchdogs of farron covenant, but every time I finally get in a game after waiting for 20-40 minutes, the host just disconnects and I don’t even get the swordgrass. I wish that FromSoftware would give you the covenant item if they disconnected.

[@iamamish]

Agreed.

[@DemoniteBL]

Farming Ghrus is much more efficient, plus you can farm pale tongues at the same time. I got all my covenant items from offline farming since PvP summoning is extremely inconsistant. But yeah, I agree as well. You should also get the reward as a blue if you spawn in at the exact moment the invader dies. Idk why but that happens waaaay too often.

[@robertzeiger1547]

Starts game. Gets invaded by lightning axe, sunlight blade and dark hand. Gets two shotted due to risk 4th parry. My 3 parries with my shit sword and two flasks. Cant out tank the invader fully decked out in end gear and items chugging 7 hateraids. Dies then gets infamous messege. Get good scrub. Love the invading community love the game still.

[@piltdown169]

I really enjoy these commentaries on the state of the game. I invade to show flavor and epic lore characters that fit into the area. I use the untrue dark ring usually and use “fun” builds that have flavor. In a sense, I also feel like I’m usually the last open variable for hosts and phantoms that have played these levels again and again and know where every enemy is and how they behave. I’m an enemy that doesn’t stay in one zone and play by the rules; a fun little mini boss on the way to the boss. I’m the kind of guy that deletes a character if his name isn’t capitalized correctly. I’m just a nerd for the lore. Invasions, like you say, make you better at the game because you can’t afford to make stupid mistakes. Phantoms can swing all together, exhaust their stamina and have their buddies cover their backs. For an invader, that’s almost certain death. You get these lessons beat into you mercilessly, and you get better. Sorry for the rambling but you just got me thinking. Thanks for all that you do.

[@iamamish]

At first when you said you delete a character if his name isn't capitalized correctly, I thought you were referring to the people you invaded. :D

[@StilvurBee]

i've thought about making characters themed around an area (a carthus warrior, for example, using the NK chestpice and old sage's blindfold) but i've never put forth the effort to do it

[@iamamish]

@@StilvurBee I'm always impressed by people who do that, but it's never something I wanted to invest effort in.

[@robinh7745]

Jacob, im like you for the untrue dark ring. I Always have it, for style! We should have just red sparkles instead of all the body as an invader. Same goes for white summons, it's just meh.

[@ORBrunner]

Invaders - they are REAL difficulty of DS3. We are immunity system of this game. If you want easy time using embers, guess what: not in my watch boyo. Also invader mentality is very similar to predators (Yautja) - always trying to improve skills and sharping their mastery of using the game mechanics and tactics. Thrill of the hunt and challenge makes you feel alive and quake with anticipation. I love that. Ganks can be done right. PointDownMeta guy from ChaseTheBro channel is a proof of that but sadly it is rare sight. Good hunt for everyone, fellow invaders

[@15MRV51]

Yes, you are right. The gankings done by PointDownMeta is pure fun for invaders. They don't kill every single mob before you invade his world to just destroy you on a 4v1 and also they don't play passively. It's a lot of fun for both sides. That is a healthy gank, 4 v 1,2 + mobs. And they often cosplay as well, very cool. I see that as the main difference between 3 versus you with all mobs dead running at you nonstop on pontiff, trying to kill you at every single moment, abusing the non-friendly fire phantom co-op and you just getting rekt.

[@StilvurBee]

Just recently i got a message from a host i lost against. I don't remember what he messaged me about, but i mentioned how he tried to summon once he started losing and he shouldn't do that (call me salty if you like, but the summoning failed) and he told me "Never. I didn't ask to be invaded." which i replied to with "you embered, didn't you? beat the boss solo or live with the consequences". After a very long pause (40 min or so) he gave me the very enlightening answer of "Well, i won. So". I mentioned that the last hits looked fishy anyway and i lost because of lag, then he said "That's how i say i don't deal with consequences." This host got _so desperate_ that once they started losing they _lagswitched._ (not an assumption, he admitted to it.) Did they forget that the game is supposed to be fun or something? Like if they just did it from the start, whatever, they're a cheater, but no they had to start losing first - they just *can't* let that mean invader win against them. And this was in the ringed city! Do they do that every time they start losing to an invader?

[@UserOfTheZune]

I have a question man! What do you think the benefit to roll catching a second or third time to finish off a phantom/host is as opposed to simply roll catching once then double r1s? It seems like the r1 r1 combo would allow you to end them a little more quickly, and if they happen to roll through the first while taking damage, then your go to chaser, the estoc, would take very little more time on the recovery than simply chasing after r1 number one. Hope that makes sense, just something I've seen a lot on your videos!

[@iamamish]

UserOfTheZune great question and a more detailed answer is coming in a video in a while. However it really depends on a few factors: 1. Will a whiff make it more likely your opponent can heal? Does it matter if they heal? The more likely a heal will be caused by a whiff, the more sense it makes to extend roll catches. 2. How prone is your opponent to mash the roll button? The more prone, the less sense it is to combo. For instance against a top tier duelist I will almost always try for the combo instead of a roll catch chain.

[@UserOfTheZune]

@@iamamish That makes some good sense, a person very likely to continue rolling in panic is almost giving out free hits. I almost never consider the other side of the spectrum since I most often either go long periods without finding a very tactically inclined player or if I do, I often lose without the chance to get much out of the fight since they tend to end quickly. Thanks for the quick response, I really appreciate it and find a lot of very interesting and detailed info on your videos, take care!

[@lordheck3170]

I invade because honestly it can be very fun. Unlike most people now a days I like to play a game as it was meant be played. For fun, thats what about. Although...Dark souls about GITTING GUD and DYING.

[@deivymaybe7554]

Crusader DEUS VULT yes true. Can i invade you later on? Xd

[@lordheck3170]

@@deivymaybe7554 BRING IT FILTHY CASUAL

[@josephcola9662]

Grinding for Darkmoon blade is either suffering from hosts who stay at a cleared area and having to fight the invader by yourself, just to get backstab fished if you use an ultra or hornet ring one-shot if you don't, or you arrive 2 minutes after the host is dead or Dc'd, or the invader already left. Option 2 is spending literal DAYS grinding silver knights as your brain melts from boredom, because it's less stressful than dealing with toxic invaders and hosts. Maybe 10% of my blue summonings are to a solo host who actually needs help like what the covenant was for, or a fightclub where you have a reasonable chance of getting a fair fight and therefore a concord.

[@iamamish]

Joseph Cola my experience is totally different and in fact a video may be coming about it. The key is to do it at lower levels. At meta level I agree with you.

[@josephcola9662]

@@iamamish Did that video ever come out? Sorry if I missed it, and if I did, can you link it in a reply to this comment?

[@JonMcGuirk]

I don't like being invaded, but I also like it because it's part of dark souls. it adds intensity and urgency.

[@iamamish]

EXACTLY. Perfectly put, that is the entire reason invasions exist. They're there to create uncertainty as you navigate these worlds, knowing at any moment you could have a game-changing invasion.

[@ludicroushamster3565]

A very good and articulate video. I like that you attempt to delve into multiple perspectives. Part of the problem regarding this issue is how many variables can enter into any given scenario, both in game and player differences - here individual skill honestly takes a back-burner; a person's mentality affects the outcome more often than not. For example, I made a sorcerer build a while ago, an utterly pitiful looking character aptly named "Frail Old Man" as a little social experiment of mine. Objectively this build is of little to no threat whatsoever in a pvp situation; I would mainly proceed through the game with the "old hidden body sneaky sneak" tactic, with no viable pvp spells equipped and no melee. I wanted to see how many invaders would murder this lone, feeble old man in cold blood as he huddles on the floor in the foetal position. The answer was: surprisingly few actually - I found the only people that aggressed were newer players. This is fairly typical behaviour if anyone reading this has played TF2 -- it's always the stock pyros that brutally murder the poor Hoovies. Of course, I was murdered on sight every single time when I tried invading. Obviously it's a lot more aggressive context, but even showing active friendliness - dropping embers for example, had no effect. Obviously no-one was in the mood for this senile old man's shenanigans :c

[@iamamish]

Ludicrous Hamster lots of good observations. Honestly I can’t attack noobs who curl up. It’s no fun!! I also can’t attack the friendly invaders. Thanks for the kind words.

[@giantdad1661]

So long as you invade I shall be there to stop you. So long as I invade I will be there to cheese you all. Serious note though, I used to not be into invasions, then...I cracked my first orb...oh the thrill of my first kill. Then I got the infinite red eye orb. I used it to practice pvp, then I became a Blade of the Dark Moon. I learned to use all my tools like knives and kukris, Lloyd's talismans and my secret quick bait and switch to put them in a panic roll. Oh it's like a drug.

[@AndrewBrownK]

I really appreciate this video. I remember first starting DSR last summer and trying to come to grips with invaders... After winning my first few invasions in the Tomb of Giants, I finally realized... "Hey... it feels really good when I defeat an host, right? ...but that's not all.. when I'm the host, it feels really good to defeat the invader. So why shy away from the interaction? And why get nervous or angsty about providing that kind of content to someone else? Isn't there something gratifying about getting to challenge another player, and even if you lose, you recognize the endorphin rush you were able to provide them? In a dying game, we're still all here, providing content for one another... there's something to enjoy in that, win or lose on each occasion. Be happy you have someone to play against. Be happy when you win. And be happy you can be their win. Be a good sport." My first DS3 character was a level 120 PVE build. Now I'm working on a level 90 PVP build. I'm up to level 60 or so. And here's the kicker... I've been using a dried finger. No sign summons, but way of blue equipped. I don't camp, I just try to progress the game like normal... After my first day of doing this, I had *so much* fun.... and I edited all the PVP clips together and was shocked to realize..... "shit.... I died.... A LOT...." Rough estimate, I probably got slaughtered by reds like 15 times, got a blue assisted kill 5 times, and solo kill 2 times. After rewatching it, I didn't feel like uploading it anymore.... it's not "impressive". But... where did that sensation of fun go? The endorphins I had right after the actual playtime itself? I HAD fun, didn't I? And I did... because I guess the challenge wasn't strictly PVP at that point, my real challenge was progressing PVE *despite* the dried finger hazard... and at *that* I was *very* successful. This video really helps go the extra mile though, and reminds me of (the other reason) why I started the dried finger. How many reds did I save from a toxic gank, to challenge a sincere player progressing PVE? How many blues did I give a chance to earn their concords, and finally unlock Darkmoon Blade? I still don't think the recording would make for great KZbin entertainment. But at least now I can look back on that run and enjoy the memory again. I should mention a final third reason I decided to try dried finger, was to force myself into hostile PVP environment more, to force me to get good. Trial by fire. Especially since this level 90 character is intended for invasions down the line. And I can't wait for that.

[@posseslayer280]

Excellent video, the issues regarding the passivity used to bug me a lot. Here's a slightly different view from me: while the party can stay behind and never lose, so can the invader. I see however people commenting "it's a video game is it so bad if you die?" and my honest and non-ironical answer is "same applies to you invader, go in there fight and probably die". You see, I used to agree that dark souls was about beating a hard game and that invaders are the balancing force to equalize the phantoms. After 2 years at 140 pontiff I realized how wrong I was and how much Miyazaki loves invaders in this game. I am a supporter of the opinion that dark souls 3 is about giving invaders the best challenge they can give them. It's not about the host or the dark souls experience, it's the invaders that are playing the true dark souls. PVE is a joke especially with summons, 2/3/4v1 against EXPERIENCED opponents is the real challenge.

[@iamamish]

I love you Posse but I've thought about this too, and yes, the same applies to invaders. My response however is that while the host and his party give up marginal advantages by moving forward, confronting parties in a small room with no support where nobody attacks until I do, and then they flank me? THat is certain death. I don't mind taking chances, and if they were at least attacking me, I'd typically fight a 2v1 and 3v1 head-on, but those types of passive parties just cannot be beat head on like that.

[@posseslayer280]

@@iamamish Yeah, you've a point there for sure! I'm just not patient enough to resist charging them with a deathwish :)

[@suzuyasama5981]

Posse Slayer yea it’s really fun when you just solo fight 3 guys

[@posseslayer280]

@@suzuyasama5981 Haha it is for me I swear!

[@THECREATOR49Steam]

@Arena Rat nuclear take: elden ring has no online interaction, it'd vastly improve the quality of the playerbase

[@GochuGugsu]

Honestly invading is fun but I’m getting to the point on my main character that I’m only running into ultra Greatsword and straight sword users camping certain locations. I’m inexperienced compared to a lot of players who actively play this game now and trying to invade players who run the same cheesy gank strat over and over again for wolf blood grass or whatever the hell its called got old really fast. I just went and reallocated my stats with Rosaria and farmed the ghrus instead because I still had better luck with the drop rates than having a 15 minute invasion because the host wanted to party in gank city

[@mewmanc6188]

This was a really well said video Amish, good stuff, really. I think it sums up my current opinion on the game’s pvp as well as the opinion of other streamers/discorders. Also I love the graph at the end. Explains concisely why invasion ARE in fact more difficult than they ever have been.

[@iamamish]

Yeah there are not many PVE noobs playing the game anymore. Even SL 60 invasions have become pretty challenging. In fact, I'd say the typical SL 60 invasion is now as challenging as a typical Pontiff invasion was in 2017.

[@misschievous9113]

I dont know for other people, but i invade because I really enjoy finding those rare shiney co invaders who u work together with seemlessly. That level of both people understanding the game mechanics and the end goal makes me feel so good. Especially since 2v2 in arenas are dead now. I would go through 9 horrible invasions just to get that one good one 🥰

[@exclaimedbowlt4466]

Great topic Amish! I'm really excited to watch later and see what you have to say on the subject. If I was to add my opinion on why I invade personally nowadays, simply put its just to see all the weird or fun stuff I can pull off during fights and have fun. lol silly I guess. But just trying new things like some new tech or a new swap just keeps me going. Some people are just bad sports and thrive on negativity and they always will, no need in taking to heart anyone who sends hate over a video game

[@StilvurBee]

if you haven't already, try putting a greatlance in your offhand and an UGS in your main. the greatlance's 1H R1 combos into every UGS 1H R2 attacks, very fun with dark infused AGS and GL, Dark Clutch Ring and Blindfold mask. only problem is getting enough poise to use the UGS effectively with all that weight, another reason to use the AGS. soulsplanner.com/darksouls3/53837 . it's not optimized but still fairly potent

[@exclaimedbowlt4466]

@@StilvurBee Nice! That build seems like a monster. The only thing I would do different stat wise is take 5 out of each faith and int and put that into endurance to get it to 30 because that great lance takes some stamina to combo. But 30 int/faith is one of the caps for dark and chaos I believe.

[@StilvurBee]

@@exclaimedbowlt4466 yes, I considered that while building it but went to 35 for pyromancies. I actually messed up making the souls planner page, I have base vit and havels ring+3 ingame, putting the rest in endurance

[@exclaimedbowlt4466]

@@StilvurBee oh gotcha! If you're actually incorporating pyromancies into the play as well then id definitely stick with a 35/35 .

[@SlayerRunefrost]

Also From, there NEEDS to be a way to co-op without getting invaded

[@iamamish]

The problem is that co-op simply makes that game way too easy. If they were to add co-op without invasions, they'd have to make co-op way harder to compensate. Either way, there is no free lunch - From doesn't want your co-op experience to make the game ez

[@ghaithnouh424]

Those who hate invasions are not true dark souls players, using phantoms reduces game 's difficulty so much, and it almost feels like you are playing different game, try beating the game solo, and believe me, you won't hate the invaders anymore... I beated th game by myself, and it took me a long time, but i gained a lot experience and i know every little detail about the environment, enemies,etc..... Then, a friend of mine asked me for help, i helped cause i thought it was fun and i feard he might drop the game (he already did once), it took him shorter while, but i dont think he really experience what dark souls is, since i was there for him, i ruined every tarp, i killed every challenging enemy, i capped his experience, he can't even remember the names of locations. And the natrual reaction for invader is quite different, anyway he is determined now to beat the game by himsef... My point is: before calling yourslef a proper player, try beating the game by yourslef instead of ryling on phantoms and overleveling your chraracter

[@junyisang8672]

I def agree that beating the game yourself makes a signigicant difference in understanding the game. I'm currently doing an SL 15 run to get more estus and bone shards for low level invasions and it has been eye opening how much I relied on vigor at 40 and +10 weapons to compensate for sloppy play.

[@AA11196]

Ghaith Nouh what about the people who are coop for fun? You’re acting like a jackass by overgeneralizing that people who co op are just noobs who need help. It’s a video game

[@Alex_Barbosa]

Phantoms don't ruin the game. You still have to learn the mechanics, the movement, the enemy patterns etc, or you'll get destroyed just as hard. Phantoms are complete idiots that just spam random attacks, barely trying to avoid death. It doesn't make the game worse, they are there for a reason.

[@ghaithnouh424]

I am not saying co-op with phantoms is wrong, but beating the whole game with them, instead of making them your ace in the hole when you get stuck in tough area is wrong, as i said it will make the game easier, thus they will think of Invaders as assholes not as in-game mechanic to stop them.. As for stupid phantoms, they exist, but so does stupid invaders, so it is just about luck, but in general phantoms really help (not out of charity, but because they need some easy souls)

[@THECREATOR49Steam]

@@AA11196 and you're acting entitled by demanding uninterrupted co-operative play from a series that has never featured this. funny how these things work

[@SantoLucasST]

In short, how most things are in life, there are assholes on both sides

[@iamamish]

Yes, exactly. Griefing is not something tied to your team color, it is how you behave.

[@Elphret101]

"Those griefing opportunities just aren't there anymore" Dude have you seen about 60% of the DS3 youtubers beating the long decayed horse carcass of trolling videos? And literally the instant there is any sale ever, the floodgates re-open

[@iamamish]

Yeah I don't mean that there are literally 0 trolling opportunities. I just mean that the game isn't rife with them anymore. If you invade with the sole goal of griefing, you're mostly going to be disappointed. Of course I could be wrong - who is making these videos?

[@zeehond604]

@@iamamish abidin61

[@AinrehteaDalnalirtu]

I was someone who enjoyed DS2 pvp and invasions more than 3. Ds2 had so much build depth, odd tech and was usually more slow and tactical. I've hated ds3 due to how generous our stamina is with weapon attack spamming and the high SL 100-120 damage always being a 2-3 hit kill on you even at 40-50 VIGR turns me off of high lvl pvp. However 3 does have its benefits and the biggest thing I realized is I like playing mediocre twink builds at low levels (SL 1-40). I ain't someone who min/max twinks, to me that sucks the entire fun out of it (Even if the host PW summons SL800s). I just make stupid builds like an anti-sorcerer using the magic res items, wearing dancers set and the small spell parry shield with a basic longsword. My goal is to make builds that are viable in the oddest situation. I have a lot of fun this way especially since my anti-mage build is my lowest build at SL 6. Beating Dancer with only a +1 longsword and my few attempts with dark hand(before realizing the hitbox is too small to risk all that damage vs the longsword) makes my builds more worth it. It feels good to fuck your mental state over creating a stupid low lvl build that you solo bosses on and make pve progress to get. Even getting dlc stuff. On pc there are *ENDLESS* SL 1-20 in highwall. Some fights easier than others but PW summons generally provide the hardest challenge. (Fighting 3 PW summons with twin meme greatswords always i'm gonna have a bad time.) Hell, I normally just give away embers if I invade the same person multiple times. I always get back to 99 on my SL 6 eventually.

[@arsonistchoir2187]

I play on xbox. All I see are havel gank squads that are maxed while I'm over here who's barely leveled to 200

[@reinaldoriosiii3636]

Need help i got xbox to

[@reinaldoriosiii3636]

And beat the game to

[@Psiberzerker]

Invading isn't as fun since I got back, because there's a lot more Invaders than Solo Hosts/Gank Squads. I've always been a Dried Finger host, but I have a lot more fun being invaded, a lot more often, then waiting for an Invasion to open up.

[@Psiberzerker]

Current build started out a Pyromancer, but my only 2 Spells are Spook, Blessed Weapon, Poison Spores, and Gentle Prayer, for Regeneration. Heavy Greatclub, Storyteller's Staff, simple Cleric's Chime, 14 Int, 15 Faith. Both of the casting tools have useful "Spells" as their Weapon Arts, and the Greatclub has a pretty versatile moveset (And nearly 700 AP with either buff.) When I can, I offhand the Demon's Fist for parrying, bitch slap, and dual wielding. Sometimes I backpack the Executioner's GS to recover FP from weenie whacking, between Invasions. Either one of those heavier options really take a chunk out of my Poise, though. Basically a Survivalist build, really Efficient.

[@iamamish]

Psiberzerker I haven’t seen you in a long while. Good to hear from you again.

[@RicardAB]

And that's the reason why I love trolling. Much more satisfying against gankers. Nice video !!

[@Alex_Barbosa]

If someone wants to be passive why not just leave the invasion?

[@kaoskittykat857]

many people lack the brains for that

[@iamamish]

alex Barbosa for the same reason that you don’t give small children what they want to get them to stop throwing tantrums

[@Alex_Barbosa]

@@iamamish sorry but If you get mad because someone doesn't want to play with you, then who's the real child? I'm just saying its way easier to just invade someone else who's open to fight. They are not hurting you by being passive, you are hurting yourself by insisting on the fight instead of just trying someone else. Sometimes it really is that simple.

[@iamamish]

But they are hurting me. This behavior is becoming increasingly common. If I were to just BC out of their world that would send a signal to every co op group to just be passive and then you’ll never have to deal with invasions. It would also end invasions as we know it. I truly don’t mind if somebody plays offline because then I never invade them and it doesn’t take up my time.

[@Alex_Barbosa]

@@iamamish I see what you mean. But I think you may be putting too much thought into it. I don't think the slope is as slippery as it's made out to be. Not every co-op phantom knows each other and plans to avoid all pvp. And while playing offline would solve the problem somewhat, it's a bit of a double edge sword. Then the host wouldn't get to play with summoned friends. I know that summoning players opens you to invasions as a game mechanic, but that's the problem, it's a game mechanic. If people like a game but dislike a certain aspect of it and they find a way to avoid that aspect, they're going to do it in order to get the most enjoyment for themselves while avoiding the things they dislike. It's like food, they want the burger, but not the tomatoes. And while I know it's got to be annoying for the invader, I still think if you stick around knowing that theyr just trying to avoid you, your putting yourself through too much trouble for the sake of principle.

[@Swirleo]

I mean honestly, the reason I invade and play the way I play (unless I really want to win) is so I can give gankers a time that remember getting spanked. Something about getting styled on people remember

[@nicklewry3854]

12:00 what are the units of this graph

[@thepepp4103]

finally someone who talks about low lv invasions, I explained to you a little while ago why I find it unfair. Another point of discussion that I would like to open it's the hatred without reason towards those who gank and invade, invasions as well as hosting is part of the game, nobody forces anyone to stay in the world against 3 phantoms,invade is a challenge, despise someone that gank has no sense honestly, same for the invader, call someone bad because he's gankin but if 3 invaders gank a host is fine, at the end is just a game and everyone can do the fuck he wants, if you wana do 1vs1 you can find spots in the game or the arena for do that. But don't use the estus glitch plis that one is just bad. Peace

[@iamamish]

Yeah there is nothing wrong with ganking, though in certain cases I'll still judge you for it, I think it's part of the game and as you pointed out you can always black crystal or block the host. Great points Pepp.

[@iamamish]

@Jinxed Swashbuckler I think you make tons of great points here - I agree - we should encourage new players to gank more often. It's a good way to develop PvP skills, at least in the very beginning. However, it also can teach you tons of bad habits (witness: 95% of gankers will attack out of stun after your 2nd R1, secure in the knowledge that you can't hang around for more attacks).

[@gundyrschampion5321]

What is the song in the first few mins? Anyone know the name?

[@BlackroadYT]

I feel like the level of assholery is pretty much the same it always was and I'm not innocent either as I spent like 100 hours in total just ganking invaders in 2016 alone and only about 1 in 10 phantoms left when they realized I only summoned them to gank and not to actually play the PvE

[@BlackroadYT]

@Gotthard Yus Idk, it's a fun power trip. I have been the ganked one at least an equal amount of times and I think that challenge can be fun and thrilling too.

[@robertor.7781]

honestly I agree with everything in the video except the graph. I see it largely the same except all the way on the right, there should be a higher plane. The difference between players can be massive. Maybe I'm just thinking about it wrong, but like the difference between any really good player and the top like 10 guys is insanely huge. I feel like it probably would take a lot of time, but at a certain point it just shoots up. Any thoughts?

[@justusmuller9445]

I agree

[@davidf3974]

I started ds3 in 2018, first playthrough solo offline to learn the pve, then immediately started arena and invasions. Was I good? No, I lost more than anything, but it taught me how to play

[@junoglrr9119]

yeah there feels good right?

[@tasoskakos9286]

Same here bro! If you don't play PvP you will never truly learn to play the game.

[@davidf3974]

To me, that's what adds replayability and drives interest in pve for new builds

[@PassionFlame64]

One time I remember getting invaded was in the swamp area with the giant crabs. It was a 2v1 situation and they tried to flank me, one using weak magic and the other using a sword. I ended up defeating both easily. Normally, I don't play online, but it does add a nice thrill to it and it tests your skill as a player like looking everywhere, even at something that may not stand out such as someone using magic to disguise themselves. Members who hang out in Pontiff Sulyvahn always hang out in the same spot, using the enemies with the large weapons against you.

[@b-rock8557]

Good video as always man. One thing I feel like you forgot to mention or didn’t want to is the invaders who play that way. I host with one phantom nightly at pontiff and 80% of the time we are outnumbered 3v2 and on occasions 4v2 and we get invaders that once we one of the invaders die they will run and hide and wait and wait and wait till it’s outnumbered again or just hide and shoot arrows at us while we are fighting other invaders. Hosting invasions is a hole different ballgame I know. But we come across some of the most annoying and pathetic invaders nightly and to me they play so much crappier than most annoying hosts. Either way I’m glad to know that there’s people like you keeping this great game going and alive. There isn’t a game out there like dark souls and never will be in my opinion

[@lovewilcox6874]

I think it’s hard to blame Pontiff invaders for the way they play. They’re likely scarred for life after encountering the most cancerous gank squads out there. By the time they invade you they’ve already been to hell and back and are likely prepared to do whatever it takes as a matter of both principle and learnt behaviour xD

[@junoglrr9119]

Sherlin Tyler Brock it might turn out that this kinda pvp mecanics wont elvove or even exists bc lots of ppl cant get it right or have a complete wrong perception of it.... the idea of invading and multiplayer overall in ds is unique and should be evolved but... it seems it doesnt go that way

[@b-rock8557]

Love Wilcox That is true and I understand that completely we run into a lot of the same invaders every night and they know who we are and they still play that way but I do see what you’re saying it does make a huge difference whenever you’re fighting a four-man team with casters in Straits swords an ultra great swords But I didn’t think about that at first MySelf

[@IAMUtubeSockPuppet]

I think it's intriguing that, at an even older point in its life, Dark Souls 2 is almost the opposite. Nearly every host you invade is on NG, with poor or incomplete builds, barely any PvP skill, usually alone and hollowed out of part of their max HP. Plenty of ways to just vaporize people in a small number of hits, and healing via any method is excruciatingly slow. A big part of this is that Dark Souls 2 grants no op-out of PvP aside from being offline or burning an effigy (which many people seem not to do). Still, I wonder, when DS3 gets older still, will we wind up having a similar situation where solo invasions of new players become relatively more common again? Because ,like where DS2 is now, most players will be first timer picking up the game on the cheap? Or will it be more like the original DS1 where the relic population was largely elite players, and seemingly that's where DS3 is trending at the moment?

[@stefanlynch3210]

Ds3 is twinks invading at high wall griefing noobs.

[@nure2113]

You make the Invaders almost sound human. 😉

[@g-in8464]

:D Interesting video, good points. I start to play ds3 and invade at 2020. Quite diffcult, but lots of fun. The reason I invade is that I enjoy to observe how people react in different situation. Passive players in 3v1 and disconnect makes me angry and laugh out at the same time. DS3 invasion is the only thing givs me such special experience.

[@latency5248]

Because invasions are better and are fun, just tryhard dueling gets really boring at some point, invasions, theres alot to give, some may be casters some trolls, theres alot of different things you get in invasions, that's my oppinion,

[@deejay554]

From my perspective, as a coop player who plays the series mainly to chase the game with a friend, invasions are just an add-on. Sometimes they introduce a bit of emotions, etc., but often they are a tiring grief that prevents the passage of a given location. Certainly, the lack of ember loss as a result of death at the hands of the invader would have a positive impact on the perception of the invasion. Some hot spots are so crowded that the moment you enter this zone, there is an instant invasion. After a few such times, we just do DC right away to have peace of mind and continue the game.

[@iamamish]

At the end of the day, invasions are a core part of online play. If they were not, you wouldn't be invaded. That's just how the game works, regardless of how any of us feel about the mechanic. A few additional thoughts - if you DC, you retain your invasion priority, and so are likely to get re-invaded as soon as you start the game back up. You can just jump off a cliff when you're invaded. That way the invasion priority goes back down, win or lose. When people DC, I'm somewhat skeptical that the primary goal is to continue the game, and suspicious that part of the motivation is to somehow deny the invader satisfaction. I have an entire video about this topic - my position is that the reason so many people have deep disdain for the invasion mechanic is that they hate somebody else having a good time at our own expense.

[@deejay554]

@@iamamish I cannot speak for the others, but in our case it is purely time and ember saving. It doesn't mean we always do that, none of those things. We fight the first and even the second invasion of a given zone. We say goodbye to another in a quick dc to save time and ember. Of course, this applies to a situation where the same invader kicked our asses once, then a second time and then we see him for the third time in the same zone. We already know the result of this clash.

[@peter_griffith522]

@@deejay554 you don't save time when you dc it takes longer to load up ds3 then simply jumping off a cliff, also embers are soo easy to get just farm the first knight at the lothric castle bonfire.

[@deejay554]

@@peter_griffith522 you do save resources, like humanity in DS. Without them, You cannot coop anymore and have to farm them solo for hours. Also, game restart on ps5 takes only seconds.

[@nebulouscat2210]

I've grown completely disgusted with the dark souls community in general. It's hard for me to even play not because of the game but because everyone I meet is just not worth interacting with compared to in the past. 90+ play through and my love is dying , get better soon ds community.

[@CodeRed0]

This is why I made a character named 'BluesAreBadAtDS3' and used dried fingers to gank my own blues with my invaders. I snapped after an invasion where the host and blues just... sat there, then after like 10 minutes I got impatient and went into their blender and got pointed down on.

[@alexweise5115]

Invaders are a special sort of trash human being that get off on ruining an otherwise great game. The kind of people who say they have a lot of friends in real life, but oddly enough have a hard time getting any of those people on the phone outside of the public eye.

[@iamamish]

How dare people play the game the way it was intended and...ruin it. Hmmmm. That’s an interesting theory you have there. EDIT: it's also very interesting to me that we've all had a very nice and civil discussion here, and your very first instinct is not to criticize the game, or critique the balance, or anything like that. Rather, your very first instinct is to just insult an entire class of people for engaging in the game's multiplayer. And evidently *we* are the ones who are trash.

[@colin857]

It's to balance the fact that you 1. Get a health boost for basically free w embers 2. The fact that you can summon multiple other players to help you in the world. If you don't like invasions 1. Play offline and give up your summons and 2. Don't use embers because that will still summon npc invaders. Sorry, but this game doesn't have an easy button and it's probs not for you

[@alexweise5115]

Colin Devick I have beat the game several times, but I’m trying to play through with my son to help him. There aren’t a bunch of people available to summon for help when these parasites with pvp show up to mess up the game. It was fine when the game came out because people were around to help, but now these sacks of trash usually have free reign.

[@xIr0nGuerillero]

@@alexweise5115 Well then you better pull the plug fast.

[@iamamish]

Alex Weise damn other humans and their desire to play games!

[@Nhileishere]

I will admit I hated invasions when I began this series. A ton. But, I really learned to love invading + being invaded over the time I played this series for the past 7 years i practically beg for them because they are so rare now. It breathes life into the game, and it's part of what DS is truly about. I played so many clones trying to replicate what DS captures (Fallen Order, Mortal Shell, Surge, code vein) but I always come back to this series, as they miss the depth of what DS truly is and this mechanic and the variety of play styles you can base your character off of.

[@Nhileishere]

And look, mortal shell was great and somewhat changed a few ideas around. And I hope it expands in it's sequel if it ever happens. Until now, that game lacks a lot of what it's trying to be. The point of DS is the choice to mold your character who you want to play as. But 4 shells where only 1 is truly useful doesn't give choice, rather the illusion of it.

[@iamamish]

I almost wish one of the NPC quests would require you to invade a few times. They tried that in DS 1 and 3 with the NPC invasion, but it's not the same. I also understand it would be bad for players without internet connections, but it really opens your eyes, and you're never the same player after your first invasion.

[@kodan7879]

Never played any Ds games, yet youtube recommends this for me. After 8 minutes I still understand nothing, so... Good luck I guess?

[@sasquatchkidPS3Xx]

I don't invade to grief, I invade to experience conflict with not only the world but other players as well. Each invasion holds surprises and new encounters, and provides a fun and entertaining experience that I can't get from playing with my Jolly cooperators. I tend to cosplay as various characters from the series, and I'll even occasionally invade as a blue or mad phantom. There's not a more satisfying feeling than popping into someone's world as Lautrec and blocking at them with a parrying dagger. How am I a griefer when I'm just trying to have fun with a mechanic in the game? This feels worse than the "You're ruining my immersion" argument.

[@hujair]

Invader for life!

[@iamamish]

Hell yeah

[@yesenia7272]

8 months ago i hate being invaded. Then watching this video i decided to give it a shot, invade other people, the same people like me playing the game in ng+ or just having fun in co-op. I learned a lot invading and i can assure that it is not a bad thing and you can have some fun, even today in 2022 with disconnect people, hackers and gankers. I see the two sides of the same coin and i really enjoy being invaded and invade. Thank you iamamish!

[@iamamish]

Love to see it!

[@W_PFP]

All the cry babies here would HATE Chasethebro check out his channel

[@dougp5044]

Use to watch Chase but stopped he preys to much on lower leveled less skilled players very rarely does he go to 125sl or higher where people know the game and can defend themselves proper.

[@W_PFP]

@@dougp5044 not sure what to say to this. When he shows his builds they're almost always at 120 or higher. Also most of his videos are two to four VS one. And praying? You know this is ds right?

[@dougp5044]

@@W_PFP that's cool man glad to see him stepping up.I never said I didn't like him just when he was doing that like so many others I really didn't think it was cool but a thumbs up to him for moving up hope he does well

[@theholynut8598]

Question, if I hide behind a pillar in an undead match to avoid CHSM, am I a coward? (Or any other homing mass for that matter)

[@iamamish]

Definitely not - it is an invasion, pretty much anything within the rules of the game goes. That's a great strategy. HSM is really difficult to deal with. You can also try a shield with high magic defense - you still want to try to roll the spells, but if you make a mistake and end up blocking it, you'll take a lot less damage. When somebody has HSM up, you really cannot safely attack them, and the only approach is to try to proc the attack, and then pressure them. JeeNiNe has a great video on how to fight mages, and these are tournament mages.

[@theholynut8598]

@@iamamish I'll have to look at that, I defenenetly struggle against magic in general

[@AlphaLyons]

I do it for the rush, whats weird is when I end up ganking with the host during an invasion, however some invasions are more unique than others. Sometimes while I host Pontiff, I just put on Silver Knight and hide in the bodies to see the oblivious invaders. Why? Cuz its fun and it makes the game fun to see these reactions when I decide to come out of hiding.

[@Ladydakness]

The clip in the background made me so so so sad about this game. I love dark souls 3 but my lord the mentality that most of these kids that get invaded have is sad, like it’s a game and you can respawn if you die, take the L and try again, these kids want to win so bad that they forget how to simply play the game. More than once have I been invaded and ganked, had my help randomly DC or rage quit, and have invaded and dealt with the fight clubs, the honour fighters, but mainly my encounters are the super toxic squads that do their most to stack themselves to victory against any invader or stay and hide until I either get bored and hunt them down and get ganked or until they get bored and shut down the game. It’s sad.

[@actualteddybear891]

Bloodbourne was the only pvp I was actually good at....and DS2, but I did squash some proper shenanigans in BB.

[@alexwoodruff7706]

The passivity from hosts in invasions is a leak from the casual dueling mindset in which: as long as you're not the one who hits first, then you're guaranteed a win

[@horphalamph]

Hey, just want to say that you don't need to break a shield, you can use a scythe to cut through it. Especially if you're using an elemental build.

[@Makuta1213_]

I honestly don't know what it is that keeps dragging me back into this game, but I do see one constant. Invasions. I enjoy the challenge of invasions, making new characters to invade with, and using those characters to hopefully enrich someone's playthrough of DS3. Then there is the times like what you showed here, a party of 3-4 who are incredibly hesitant and slow to advance through the level, waiting for you to approach them, despite your massive disadvantage. Great content as always, Amish.

[@TheDragonMasterChannel]

I just play in offline mode cuz my game is always crashing with the "frame rate not suited for online play" message, if I wanna go online to play with friends and get invaded I will just rely on my souls veteran friends to carry me while I lag across the lobby :^)

[@bufuhl1869]

I invade with full estus but not upgraded on low level. I dont use twink rings and dragonslayer axe, unless i encounter another twink

[@jrba8510]

The thing about meta-SL-PvP after Suly is that the experienced players tend to enjoy it, no matter what team they´re a part of, so I like to think that there´s no "invaders vs. coopers" feud. Since the game is already dying, I see familiar players all the time and sometimes I gank them, sometimes they gank me, sometimes we´re teammates, etc. Hell, often enough I invade or get invaded by some of my steam-friends and we usually gank each other without mercy or resentment. ...Or maybe they all hate me and I´m just too optimistic. I dunno. I dislike the whole "invaders vs. coopers" thing. We all need to chill and kill each other while DS3 is still alive.

[@jrba8510]

​@Jinxed Swashbuckler Indeed! I´m a Wretch at heart but I started hosting in DS3 because I hated staring at the "looking for a world to invade" screen... More ganks, more worlds to invade. I understand the frustration of some invaders but I´m also thankful when experienced players gank. There´s no tougher challenge in DS3 PvP than fighting those squads and, because of that, there´s nothing more satisfying that bringing one of them down. I can almost touch the salt-fueled-rage-turned-into-joy whenever a group of invaders manage to kill my phantoms and at that point, they either kill me or I become the spanker. Regardless of the result, it´s thrilling AF for everyone involved.

[@TYLER503DURDEN]

Great point about the skill difference gap now vs then. This past, probably 6 months now, fighting techniques I've seen from gankers that were obviously bad at PVP makes sense now. I suppose that means I really need to strive for that top spot in skill on your graph to take on these new era gankers. Ill be busy perfecting that pivot backstab tech Ive been struggling with now. Great video, subbed.

[@iamamish]

Thanks and yes it is an incentive to get better. Always gotta be improving.

[@chrispeterson9447]

Good point about encouraging the naysayers to give it a shot-most deep down are just salty because they can’t succeed at something like invading at pontiff. They can’t fathom the idea of fighting multiple people at once. I would argue that unless you’re in like the top 25 percent in terms of skill, you’re almost never going to succeed as an invader at pontiff.

[@chrispeterson9447]

Jinxed Swashbuckler yes the forest is probably even tougher in most aspects, even at 120 I’ve run into some very nasty squads there. I haven’t tried invading there below SL 90 yet, about to start another build though so I’ll give it a go.

[@DarkBloodSouls]

Great stuff as usual brother. Love your frequent uploading!

[@Jupiterbun-bunJetson]

This wasn’t me but my friend who introduced me to dark souls back in ds1 would invade as a giant dad, drop masks of the father for players who were clearly new, let them pick it up, then squash them. I asked him why and he said he did it because that way they would get a helpful item, keep going, get better, then hopefully fight him later.

[@kaoskittykat857]

I think a normal persons reaction is more like "Oh... he one-shot backstabbed me". "Guess this is how this game works" and now we are here :p

[@thesmirk]

NPC enemies are designed to be beaten, humans are designed to overcome and adapt. I honestly think being the white summon (not overleveled) is the hardest challenge. You have to make it through all the enemies at least one invader and then still survive the boss. I play every aspect of this game and I love every aspect of this game! Love the video!

[@TheLordNovo]

My problem with invaders is that there’s no good matchmaking system. I got the game recently, and the times I do get invaded, it’s people who have played through the game multiple times along with the dlcs. I just completed Wolnir, and I had someone invade me and they were using Friede’s Scythes. Like, I’m just trying to play the story, leave me alone. PvP and story needed a way to separate from each other, and FromSoftware never gave the game that distinction. I don’t want some dude at level 150 or something coming across me when I’m just trying to find the boss, because it ruins the game for me. I just want to play solo, and even setting my game to offline will do nothing 60% of the time (yes, I’ve had my offline status active and still been invaded by players. It’s absurd)

[@gundyrschampion5321]

Whats the name of that first song?

[@TheAxeForgetsTheTreeRemembers]

The real griefers are the ganks, and I already believed that 3 years ago, when I started playing the game. At the time I started invading or helping for the various covenants' rewards, I was a real newbie, I had not seen anything on the internet, I clearly didn't know what I was doing. But it still was obvious how much easier it was to just be in a group of several players who can't harm themselves than to invade, and be the one facing this group. I died so much, just to earn a ridicule 30 pale tongs. Getting those concords was comparatively a piece of cake, and I can't stress enough how often I would just stay behind not doing anything, just because I felt so bad being in a group of 3 or 4. I learned to appreciate anything in this game at a certain point, but I hardly went with the various toxic behaviours, and this thing that you described: that some people will just do anything to beat you, and disrespect you, whether they are about to win or lose. And I see that a lot on the internet. People just lack the education I think.

[@iamamish]

There are reds who try to Target new players and they’re griefers as well, but I agree with your broader point.

[@TheAxeForgetsTheTreeRemembers]

@@iamamish agreed. But personally, I don't complain if a very good player destroys me which happened a lot. It's really the bad attitude that ruins it for me. But the difficulty is part of this game. How can one seriously expect to play DS with no trouble, am I right?

[@ABCovfefe]

How do you have the users you're facing off against displayed on the corner right (I'm assuming that's what that is) Is this in game or did you add this? Am i reading this information incorrectly?

[@iamamish]

PVP watchdog

[@andyortega1517]

I’m torn up right now. I spent the better part of a day making an Aldrich mage just to give my fellow invaders the edge at Pontiff but for 3 days straight now I end up getting killed by a red in 1/3 invasions. Like, getting R1 spammed with a long sword, on spawn, by other invaders. The other two thirds of invasions are filled with unprepared invaders who may not have the obscuring ring, telegraphing our position or giving up on waiting for more invaders to join and running head first into an advanced gank, and, naturally the last third is losing to said gank. This may only pertain to Pontiff but I would like to see more Aldrich Faithfuls to avoid confusion (like password summoned reds) let’s make use of the tools From gave us.

[@ZeroEffort]

Just hit 500 successful invasions a few days ago. I've always loved invading and I can say, I agree with a lot of this video. Invading has a skill ceiling that regular duels doesn't have. Sure I get pissed when a 4v1 clear put pontiff then wait for me and spam spells/RKPGS/Katana running attack/Straight Sword roll catch then point down and throw dung pies when they kill me, but when I do manage to kill them it feels amazing. I normally invade at meta or on my SL192 with DMB so most of the time I only get invasions at pontiff, Ringed Knight dlc or sometimes Arch Dragon Peak. I love invading. I know that the host should have the advantage in an invasion, but some of this stuff is just plain stupid. 30% more health, double the estus, and the fact that the red eye orb prioritizes hosts with phantoms means 9/10 times you'll be getting ganked. Even if it's that 1/10 times there's still Way of Blue, Use the enemies? They popped a seed. Now your only advantage is trying to kill you. 2 or 3 of these would be fine but all of them stacked makes it almost impossible for a good player to die to an invader. That being said, the only thing that really makes me not want to invade is when other invaders attack you. I cannot tell you how many times this happens. At this point I have to remember their names and either kill them the second I see them or black crystal if I don't think I can take all of them. This is completely different if you're a mad spirit of course. But invaders attacking other invaders is a pussy move and most of the time while the invader is pointing down I see the host equip a chaso dagger and one shot backstab him. Same with just watching other invaders die, they aren't going to duel you if they just ganked someone else. You might as well help the invader than just sit down and wait for them to kill you too.

[@Nexus-.9]

Tbh amish, if a group of gankers were hiding away from the mobs I wouldnt be waiting for them to advance because I get bored rapidly so if I am struggling to penetrate them I will keep trying, that's the fun part for me but I personally never wait on a group ever.

[@MikeyG-fe7pd]

I don’t mean to be the new subscriber who comments on all the old videos, but every sentiment you have expressed in this video is EXACTLY how I feel about this game. No matter what new game I start playing, I always come back to DS3 invasions. Nothing compares. It seems to me that the game has become so much more toxic these days. I can say that I think it might be because of certain KZbinrs, but that is speculation. I’m sure most players are new nowadays. I just believe they are watching and learning from the the wrong people. I try not to point down or throw poop and all that stuff. Not because some people don’t deserve it but because I don’t want to turn people off to the wonderful pvp aspect of this game. It is slowly dying and we need as many players as we can get for the enjoyment of us all. I love this game and can’t wait for Elden Ring. Fingers crossed the pvp is as good. Again sorry to be that guy who comments on old videos but it struck a cord with me.

[@iamamish]

Dude, honestly I'm thrilled when people go through my older videos and leave comments. It means you're enjoying them, and that's why I make them. Comment away!! And I think the increasingly toxic nature of the game is more due to the fact that the folks left are mostly tryhards whose ego is wrapped up in being good at Dark Souls. I'm sure some content creators have contributed to the cesspool, but most of them have been around since launch, so something else has changed.