HOME ENERGY Episode 4 - Generating, Storing & Shifting THERMAL ENERGY | Fully Charged

[@gperch]

Love watching Fully Charged and all these adverts for new systems are interesting, but I'd also like to see what the end users think, after they've been in use for a while. For example when Robert was showing us his Tesla app / solar / battery / savings and how it works in practice - and particularly how the new systems compare with what went before. We seem to only get the positive spin from the people selling the tech, which is great, they should be encouraged of course, but we need to know the reality. Convenience, ease of use, speed of heating water / radiators, price - and at what point you break even. Many new technologies being raved about (not just on Fully Charged) are "just around the corner". I'm sure some are, but some still aren't after a decade. It would be great to see what's available now - and if it's any good. Can't wait to see some real insight - hopefully it won't scare people off!

[@easkay]

Exactly! More technical details as well would be hugely useful, as well as comparisons between the technologies available, and how all of them can work together in a given home or living situation.

[@richardlphillips]

I've got a Sunamp heat battery charged via solar PV via myenergi Eddi. Zappi charger too. Had it for around 2 and half years now. Boiler goes off end of March and hot water is free til end of September. Also delivers more litres per second than my combi boiler. I always think payback is an interesting metric. Renewable and energy efficient tech has to be better and pay for itself whereas what it replaces never does and never will. Feels like a tough ask. I'm getting free hot water, payback might be 10-15 years but primarily it allowed to make use of solar and improved hot water pressure for showers. If boiler breaks I can still charge it from off peak electricity so gives some redundancy there too. Happy to answer any questions

[@rbettsx]

My thoughts exactly. Missed opportunity. Watching some of this episode was like leafing through promotional pamphlets. FC needs to be more investigative, critical, to be useful.

[@richardlphillips]

@@rbettsx in their defense most products featured have been covered in depth on the fully charged channel. Sunamp, mixergy etc and focused on solely for a whole episode. I think if they covered the products to that level in these episodes they would be a few hours long.

[@hamshackleton]

@@richardlphillips - so it only works for six months out of twelve.

[@andydahl609]

These episodes are making a great series! However, when you ask who installs these technologies? Everyone ducks or swerves the question! So who does install these technologies and how much do they cost and what are the running costs? I have installed Woodburners for years and the governing body is totally hopeless! Is there a governing body for renewable technology? Sorry for all the questions!

[@kuro68000]

What do they cost and what are typical payback times are the two most important questions.

[@stephendoherty8291]

All you can hope for is the cost of the machinery. The install cost is different for every site juat like every gas install would differ depending on what extra is needed and how it connects to the fuel source. Naturally we all want a fixed price. Ask any self build home owner how much the house will cost up front. All you can explain is the budget you have made.

[@BartelMeijers]

This series is exactly the thing that I need at the right time. Just bought my first house a trying to get of natural gas for heating. I am just in need of a bit more specification info on all of these solutions, but there's just so much to cover. Thank you Fully Charged for this series, keep them coming.

[@RedBatteryHead]

Nice products. I am always keen on seeing it on a diagram as an installation. That would probably be more informative to most. So you can better see what your options are in your home.

[@cloudyskies1323]

You could add links to the range of products within the description for further reading.

[@prairiedawg792]

Having manufacturers' reps on to sell their product is pretty much next to useless IMHO. Let's see some objective reviews & comparisons with facts & figures please! I'm currently researching green optons as we're about to move house so the subject is of great interest to me but I gave up watching when it got to Mixology.. "we get this from the cloud" was the final straw for me 😕

[@unicornhawk62]

What about hybrid (thermal + pv combined) solar panels: the PV-cels are cooled-down by the thermal pipes underneath them...a win-win or not?

[@roland9367]

Several companies are trying or have tried this. Some have failed doing so, others are very expensive. It is still a nice idea, but needs to come down in price and may not work that great after all.

[@mrfrog8502]

Just what I need ...watching marketing people and company directors telling me how amazing their company solutions are without actual data or comparison with existing technology.

[@paularyfin5527]

Another great video but as someone with an ageing Gas combi-boiler and no need to refurb other areas of the house I'm none the wiser as to what alternative would work in practice. Many people's perfect solution is a combi-boiler like box which is a straight swap out, maybe with an additional outside heat-pump unit but can it do heating and hot water 'on demand' to a decent temp with no other upgrades (new tank etc)? Dammed if I know! Obviously lots of smart products out there but it's a case of make up your own product at the moment.

[@malcolm8564]

You can hàve instant hot water from a large tank storing water heated by solar thermal or pv or heat pump.

[@That1ufo]

If you dont have solar get gas replacment and spend the saving on solar and a hot water tank and diverter

[@maikydb]

This is the best episode up to now!! I am sending this episode straight to our city's council!!

[@mariecrowe8843]

I wish councils would take responsibility helping people with solid advise on how to green up

[@Wavey75]

Raised more questions than it answered!

[@EcoHouseThailand]

I have had solar thermal for 2 years now. 2 PV sized panels and an insulated 200L tank. A much faster return on investment than my solar PV. I went for a ground mount system as my bathroom and kitchen are on the ground floor. System was imported from China and cost $1,000. Living in the tropics it provides all our hot water needs. EcoHouseThailand

[@stephenwensley9328]

The biggest issue for me is being able to find people who can provide advice for individual circumstances, across technologies. What suits a particular premises best, what the priorities should be. The current process seems to be identify a technology you like, find an installer to confirm the best version of that technology for your home (within the bounds of their experience/commercial agreements) For example, I’d love an air source heat pump, but am lead to believe they are pointless in house that isn’t well insulated . Something I’d probably never fully achieve in a c17 listed cottage.

[@arnekvinge6073]

This was good info. Have seen melted salt in cooling systems in larger buildings. So when cooling is needed you melt the salt in containers burried under the ground by running the retur cooling water thru. The melting point is in the chemistry of salt . In a heating system it will frees salt when taking out energy.

[@adrianus13]

Is the audio very soft for others?

[@MJMC56]

Better integration is needed in my opinion. Solar PV becomes less efficient at higher temperatures. Having them liquid cooled could take away the currently unwanted heat which could then be input to thermal storage, simultaneously increasing the electric power generated. It would also increase the PV lifespan. So a cooled PV panel feeding battery and thermal storage would be what I'd like to see.

[@terrywells1512]

Where do I start with all of this, I'm looking to replace my roof next year - perhaps with Solar Tiles (SolarPV), Install Groundsource/Airsource heat pump, interested in battery powerwall (Tesla?), Smart Hot Water tank (Mixergy perhaps) - What firms design these systems and co-ordinate all the different suppliers to install their products - is there a list around or can anybody point me in the right direction. Thanks

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

Why are they not insalling a centralised heater system for these tower blocks? Not sure it would have any efficiency saving, but it must be cheaper than individual systems.

[@attix15]

Yes it should be, the only reason i can think of is that there is currently maybe not a good system to keep track of how much energy each appartement uses. Some will use less and others more. Without the capability of tracking every appartement there Will always be People complaining. Also for hot tap water long distances from the central system would means it takes a while before getting warm water.

[@zapfanzapfan]

@@attix15 Usually you have hot water circulation in the hot water pipes so that you get it hot out of the tap in a few seconds.

[@mralistair737]

It is a centralised heating system. like almost every centralised heating system it uses a heat exchanger at the apartment to take the heat out of the centralised system you dont put your neighbours water through your radiators in centralised systems. the only difference here is that they are pumping around warm-ish water and not hot water and each flat has as small heat-pump to even this up. the advantage is that each flat is responsible for its own kit and their own usage. it's also likely that a fair amount of those flats are privately owned and getting them to agree to centralised boilers would be tricky.

[@IPC0101]

Please look at electric boilers which would be a very easy switch from gas boilers but are not viable for most as electricity tends to be four times as expensive as gas (currently)

[@waqasahmed939]

Electricity has to come down in price at least by a third or so, to mean that people actually make the switch

[@briankavanagh7191]

This means I have to rip out my fitted wardrobes to put the hot water tank back in the place I took it out from, have the immersion heater on a timer for hot water in the morning for a shower, rip out out my combi and radiators put back in night storage heaters and rely on cheap overnight electricity to warm the house when i'm in bed, go to work, come back to a very lukewarm house, then put my gas fire on to warm the house! Unless you are building from new and have the finances to put all this in it's a none starter for the average household. Do like the series though.

[@mralistair737]

you dont need to replace your radiators, heat pumps etc can work with wet heating systems... this mostly just talked about hot water storage. and how to store your 'spare' energy which isn't such a concern for space heating. and it depends what sort of 'spare' energy you have as to how you'd do that, you wouldn't install all of the featured systems in the same house.

[@edc1569]

at some point you'll have to migrate away from gas, hang on in there to the end if you want to.

[@briankavanagh7191]

@@edc1569 I will do and by the time I have to change hopefully all the products mentioned in this series will be cheaper and even more efficient👍

[@malcolm8564]

I've seen lead acid batteries with carbon coated electrodes. They can cycle as much as a lithium ion battery for half the price. The weight and size would not be a problem in a house.

[@richardgoldsmith7278]

Leaves so many questions unanswered. At least tell us where to get those questions answered. Questions like what temperature the heat store can supply at what flow rate, especially such as those found in large Rain Head showers with Mains pressure over 2 bar, for instance? How many litres straight off to fill a hot bath? How long to recover to full heat stored after drawing a full bath?

[@theboyh25]

The one question that as ever is not mentioned is how much it would cost, and how long it would take to break even. The solar solution to heat water in spring/summer won't save much when the main cost is heating in winter. It is the same with EV adoption, if I need to spend a lot of extra money to add complication to my life why would I bother. I had hoped that the seried would offer something practical with real world benefits and comparisons rather than a series of adverts

[@mralistair737]

it will be impossible for them to say what it would cost in your house, the variations possible are huge, even the different parts of the country will make something 1.5x more expensive. before you start to consider what the variables of each possible system are. As for "breaking even" that all depends on what gas will cost in 5 years time (good luck guessing) and what your other costs are... I mean you might have £30k in a savings account giving you 0.0005% interest (in which case spending £10k to cut your bills to zero is a great deal) or you might be putting it all on a 19% credit card. It also relies on knowing what the buyer of your house would pay if it has a great solar pv system.

[@pha2623]

In your case I would concentrate on insulating your home to make your heating appliances more efficient. All new tech with exception of heat pump which has a 7.5k government grant requires money up front. Makes no sense if you’re elderly

[@jezlawrence720]

When you ask suppliers about these technologies can you please ask them what the dependencies on? E.g. air source heat pumps - heat pumps in general - don't heat water as hot, so you likely need new / bigger radiators, ideally underfloor heating... Many properties in UK can't easily or cheaply have those modifications done. Doesn't mean we can't switch to heat pumps but if people think *just* a heat pump is enough they're going to have several thousand extra pounds of disappointment.

[@tuscan440r]

I just put under floor heating in the downstairs of our house and new extension..... it's a lot of work! Can't imagine existing UK houses installing it by the millions even if they are renovating.

[@wasbikebloke9846]

I really wanted to get air heat source pumps when we bought our house but the suppliers said it wouldn’t work for us because of the age and size of house. What realistic alternatives are there for older, family sized houses, that currently have gas fired central heating? We were also told by the suppliers that solar wouldn’t work because of the orientation of our roof. I’m sure there are many, many people in the same situation.

[@edwardpickering9006]

Ok, so this one is a lot better than the last 3, let's hope the others are too!

[@adamwalker1504]

Did not quite understand the sun amp 58 degree melt point in combo with the kensa. Running a heat pump at that temp will give a low CoP. Can understand with PV or grid electric.

[@mralistair737]

you have to run hot water at pretty much that temp to work with existing radiators or with hot water to avoid legionella risk. (especially if you are storing it.)

[@TheBantana]

One of the things I'm interested in, is a way to become totally off grid for my heating and hot water, The idea, invest now so my costs in retirement are as close to Zero as i can get making my pension go further with added benefit of being carbon neutral. These episodes are incredible useful as some of these companies I'd never heard of, online searches are not always forthcoming if your not entirely sure what technology you're looking for. Keep up the great work 👍

[@mylifeoliverking]

Shame you didn’t show more on how the heat pump system worked in the tower blocks. Why did they need a heat battery? Was the open loop supplied to each home with a heat pump in each home? I think this would have helped to explain the heat storage system better.

[@dl393]

(Uk viewer). I’m trying to get an EDDI like hot water switch fitted, some more PV panels, maybe a heat pump fitted to our ten year old town house. Great episode in that respect. Trouble is, it’s next to impossible to find a good installer for what is a relatively small project. (I have found one off the back of an earlier Fully Charged video but the process is very slow as they are really busy)

[@PlanetCypher_]

Did I miss what sun amp does? I know it melts at 58° to get hot but does it give me hot water to do the washing up or central heating?

[@MarcBaise]

It is a reserve of k calories, it can heat any thing you want

[@MarcBaise]

The idea I guess Is more to use it for warm water though

[@LeslieMatheson]

But...what provides the energy for the phase change? Using electricity?

[@judebrown4103]

So glad it wasn't just me! Going to watch again but could not get grips with what that thing does at all.... It's got a melting point of 58° OK so something gets hot already to melt it so what then? What is its function? Looks too small to be a hot water reserve... Anyone got it yet?

[@gigabyte2248]

It's a thermal store, like the Mixergy hot water tank, but a hot block instead. Rather than heating up water it heats up a block of sodium acetate - using the same heat pump as the space heating, or a resistive heater, or solar thermal, or a boiler or whatever - and melts it. You can then pipe water through it, putting it in cold and getting it out hot at ~65°C, as long as there's enough energy in the Sunamp - it's still only a store, after all. The thing that sets it apart is that it uses a block/tank of phase change material, rather than hot water (like a hot water tank) or hot blocks (like a storage heater). Just heating water or bricks gives you a linear (I think) relationship between the joules of energy you put in and the temperature of the storage medium - if it gets too hot, it will leak heat or need better insulation (and a heat pump gets less efficient etc.), so you're limited in the kWh of energy you can store. But, if you melt sodium acetate crystals, then in addition to the energy stored by heating it up, you store *loads* more energy by melting it and release that energy as it solidifies. You store more kWh (or kJ, or kcal) of energy in the same mass of storage medium by heating sodium acetate from a solid at room temperature to a liquid at 65°C than you do by heating bricks from a solid at RT to a solid at 65°C, which means you can heat more water with a smaller block/tank. It's a good solution.

[@jeremytravis360]

These videos are of far more interest to me than electric cars, as I no longer drive. I would like to have some energy efficient solutions in my home.

[@klaxoncow]

Gentoo? I hope these guys run Gentoo Linux, instead of Windows, at their offices.

[@klaxoncow]

@@TFT-bp8zk No, it's not important. But it would be poetic, and amusing. Have you no soul?

[@easkay]

Hopefully their products are less high-maintenance ;)

[@CausticLemons7]

Maybe they really like penguins.

[@tomsdaddy]

I have an idea, and a question. We live in an old Victorian Farmhouse, with stone walls, single glazed windows, the lot*, so instead of fitting a 'Big' High-temp Heat pump to heat it through the depths of winter, I've often thought that it must be better to fill a Barn with a number of these Thermal Batteries, and heat them through the Summer, with a small heat pump running 24/7, - to effectively store the Heat of Summer, to heat the house during Winter ? So my question is, out of all these systems, given I have a fixed Volume ( 'A Barn') (approx 400 Cubic Metres ?), what is the cheapest way of storing the most heat ?

[@That1ufo]

Ground source heat pump, im sure the is a version that have a reverse function to heat the ground in the summer, and some diy'ers have super insulated water tanks to act as storage at small scale.

[@87vortex87]

Yea, ok. We also turn off our heating from April till September and we have a gas boiler only, living in the Netherlands. That's no proof that solar boilers are worth it. Yes, we could probably get rid of the gas boiler but we live in an appartement complex. Honestly this series is a bit disappointing. It's a roadshow of companies selling their products. It would be better to have approached it from use cases perspective. Like an episode for apartment build after 2000, semi detached homes build between 1950 and 1960, and so on. And then, using such an example go through the steps that need to be done per house type to make it more green. IMHO.

[@kuro68000]

Maybe when I replace my boiler, and if it's cheaper than just putting another one in... It's not that I don't want one, but I spent all my money on housing and an EV already.

[@mralistair737]

it wont be cheaper than replacing like -for-like it will be a long time before it is and that will likely be because of legislation. However if you get solar PV etc then it might swing it in running costs. but capital costs for a more complex system will always be higher.

[@kuro68000]

@@mralistair737 To meet the UK's climate goals everyone will need one. If it doesn't hit price parity then unless it's subsidised it just becomes a burden on those who can least afford it. As much as I'd love to have things like solar, house prices and the cost of living are rising incredibly fast and boomers might be flush but everyone else is struggling.

[@rhiantaylor3446]

That phase-change thermal store sounds like a great idea, my only concern is that the efficiency of a ground sourced heat pump to deliver the needed 58 deg C would be relatively poor due to the big lift in temperature. Perhaps would be a better match to Octopus Energy's cheap 1:30 to 4:30 electricity tariff which reduces the per kw price to about that of natural gas.

[@mralistair737]

It can do either, all forms of water storage have to get to 55-58 degrees anyway to work for radiators and avoid legionella risks in water storage anyway. it's less efficient but still more efficient than using normal electricity or gas.

[@rhiantaylor3446]

@@mralistair737 The temp required for radiators (for a given room temp) is governed by their size which is why heat pump installations usually have dispense with old-style (and sized) radiators in favour of e.g heated floor or wall.

[@emmakavanagh6129]

There's a lower temp more heat pump friendly version too, don't think it's on public release yet though? Check @Zapaman on twitter who has interesting system running and monitoring.

[@MartDeursloten]

Works with pv? So Sunamp can convert electricity to heat and store it?

[@mralistair737]

I assume they mean they can attach resistive heating to use 'spare' PV energy to heat energy. for use at a time when the sun isn't shining.

[@jobsingames]

Very good presenter, great informational video

[@craigst4635]

I spoke to Sunamp a few years back at Fully Charged Live, and I am still unclear how it works, or rather, how it would get installed in my home. I have a tank and a gas boiler, but I want to get rid of both. Will a Sunamp hooked up to mains electricity do everything I need? Does it do both hot water and central heating? Does it work with Nest thermostats?

[@chrischild3667]

Ditto. Such an impressive looking solution but not clear how it hooks into an existing system or what it replaces. Does it run alongside a boiler and shoot hot water into the boiler so the boiler doesn't have to do the heating? Hot tap water only or radiators too?

[@patrickjr11]

Looking at the blurb, this is for replacing your hot water cylinder or using gas to heat water. Think of it as a heat exchanger. Either from overnight cheap rate or your PV, the battery heats up. Then cold water passes over elements in the battery and heats and heads off to the taps. I don't see anything that mentions heating so I don't think it replaces that. But that does mean that the boiler is only used for heating. Heating is always going to be a tough change.

[@chrischild3667]

@@patrickjr11 That's a sensible summary and I think its what I understood it to be too but it is a little vague. I was looking into an electric boiler (Heatrae Sadia Electromax) with a Sunamp supporting it. Fully electric heating to replace a combi boiler. Getting information on the electrical consumption of these components is difficult as well. Heating is a tough change you're so right.

[@patrickjr11]

@@chrischild3667 indeed, so many options for water. I think the issue is more to do with space as much as anything with water. However, I do wonder if a home battery combined with an electric boiler is a good pairing. Charge the battery overnight and draw power from that to run the boiler.

[@chrischild3667]

@@patrickjr11 exactly what I'm looking at personally. I have PV 4.4kWp system (mostly irrelevant to this discussion in winter) and a 9.2kWh battery that can output (inverter limits the power) at 3.68kW. I've asked Heatrae sadia what sort of draw the boiler would have when a) running a hot tap and b) heating the radiators and c) both. No response but the model I'm looking at is 9kW so presume anywhere between 0kW and 9kW! That would potentially overwhelm the battery. Sunamp could help reduce energy required but again, only for hot water I guess. Space is absolutely the issue in my house too. I've no room for a tank. Fascinating problems though my motivation is environment ahead of money savings.

[@jraevans]

There needs to be more info about costs, not just something flashed up briefly on the screen! How much will it cost to replace a traditional gas boiler set up? Including the cost of removal, labour and installation? And then how much typically you save?

[@jamesthurgood1]

I would be interested in finding more about the sun amp / ground source heat pump combo. Why would you need storage if the ground source heat pump can produce heat on demand? Is it because it can't produce enough heat to instantly heat hot water like a combi boiler?

[@mralistair737]

yes, normally it would just chug away and keep the water warm, but in these flats it was very compact and there was no room for hot water storage (and perhaps issues with pressure on hot water storage??) any heat pump system would need to be pretty massive (oversized) to produce a bath full of water on demand with zero storage.

[@adeashaye]

Very interesting but didn’t talk much about space heating. Would be great to see where some of these technologies have been used to support/replace existing space heating infrastructure.

[@rigley8830]

Roof hotwater tubes work well here in New Zealand, especially when plumbed in conjunction with a wet back wood burner for the winter months, which compensates for the lack of sun during winter. There is a problem though, due high temperatures during the summer, (think of them as a mini nuclear power station) that once the sun is out, you can't switch the heating system off leading to boiling hotwater coming out the safety bypass. This is especially true when hotwater is not run off frequently and temperature rises excessively within the hotwater cylinder. This can lead to premature failure on seals and plumbing components over a long term, which can negate any savings made in running costs, when offset with maintenance costs. I'm sure this type system does work well, the problem lies in would you feel happy after a period of 5-7 years before being faced with extensive and costly maintenance repairs? $$$ I'm of the opinion in keeping things simple, I still see 30 year old conventional hotwater cylinders working well, with little or no maintenance over that period.

[@GrahamRead101]

My self install system gets around that by automatically dumping hot water from the hot water tank down the drain if it reaches a threshold. Sounds wasteful, but safer than venting. (The hot water tank is open vented anyway just in case).

[@rigley8830]

@@GrahamRead101 Another good way to dissipate heat is to bypass through a radiator in the bathroom.

[@That1ufo]

Yes they are just too efficient! That is why 1 pv panel is better, then at 10 am the power can go to the house or Grid rather than be wasted.

[@rigley8830]

@@That1ufo I actually installed a 5kw pv system last year, got to say it's working great. You need to rethink the way you use your electricity, I have multiple timers that come on during the day for hotwater, under tile heating, spa pool etc. Our electricity bills range from around $45 per month during the winter to $5 for the summer. We're happy 😊

[@collettevipond4073]

Hot thermal batteries receive a lot more attention than cold thermal batteries, would like fully charged to produce a video featuring a cold thermal battery please. Would also like to see a project that uses both hot and cold water maybe with multiple smaller tanks.

[@pinkelephants1421]

Sun Amp tech: Wish this had been available when I was part of the team working on the Chalcott Housing Estate PFI refurbishment for Camden Council's West Hampstead Housing Office. Would have made a huge difference to residents, many of whom were of limited means & greatly reduced carbon footprint of the Estate as well as maintenance costs to the Council.

[@aaronvanhoucke2065]

are heatpumps still efficient when they need to het up to 58°c?

[@JulianToler]

I have a three phase power supply. Nobody seems to care about creating energy systems that work well with three phase. I can apply solar divert to one phase, but excess solar on the other 2 phases gets "wasted" - back to the grid with no financial compensation. I wish someone would do something about this crazy situation. I can't even get a smart meter for my house - in 2021 for heavens sake!

[@richardjones7386]

In describing these technologies it would help if energy was converted not generated. That way it’s easier to understand the cost of conversion from one state to another.

[@andyfrew6761]

Solar thermal works well but how come they do not divert some to pre-heat the house, especially with heat pumps. Undersold. A mad industry.

[@Sam-mb1yk]

Not sure how the Eddy is "eco", although it is money saving. The excess PV power from thousands of roofs could be used to replace a fossil-burning power station elsewhere on the grid, of course unless the grid is already zero-carbon. Definitely money saving, but not CO2 saving in my view.

[@solofreelancer]

While I see your point, I think there are nevertheless "eco benefits" to have from Eddy. Sending excess solar into the grid incurs losses as well as puts additional strain on the grid which in most places is still archaic and mainly designed to deliver electricity to the premises from the big generators, and often experience overvoltage caused by "too much" solar pumped back into the grid. Consuming this excess solar behind the meter is more efficient and helps reduce stress on the local grid as well.

[@simon7790]

There are some lower cost ways to heat water. We have PV panels which we have connected to a solar power diverter (there are various ones available on the market, and some are quite cheap), which supplies any excess electricity from the panels into a heating element in a 300L hot water tank. This tank feeds directly into a combi boiler. In summer the PV panels provide all our hot water - the combi boiler senses the temperature of the water from the tank is higher than its thermostat is set to and does nothing. In winter the panels might only heat the water from 10C to say 30C and the combi boiler does the rest of the heating on demand, using less gas than it otherwise would since the water comes in at 30C and is heated to 50C, instead of coming in at 10C and being heated to 50C by the combi boiler.

[@smudgerjones6881]

So is your 300L tank at mains pressure?

[@simon7790]

@@smudgerjones6881 Yes, it's set at 3 bar. The tank thermostat (heated by PV panels) is usually set to 60C, and the combi boiler thermostat to 50C for hot water. There's a pressure release valve on the tank which is plumbed into an overflow / outlet pipe, but not much comes out and you could put a plant pot or bucket under the outlet instead!

[@smudgerjones6881]

@@simon7790 Thanks for that. I have no room for a tank now so have been considering using a diverter like you are but installing a Sunamp heatstore between the mains and my oil combi and using excess power from my PV to heat it. Maybe not the most cost effective solution but space and pipework are a major consideration.

[@simon7790]

@@smudgerjones6881 Not a bad idea. Long term would pay itself, though it is a pricey option. A smaller water tank might be an alternative option, depending on your household hot water use. We're 4 and could easily do with a smaller tank.

[@BrianRobertDarby]

Yeah! 50 years' of progress - let's all get an immersion heater! - again.....

[@colincampbell437]

Eddison drove an electric car. Yes, water energy storage has been around for a long time. That's what dams do too ...

[@capitalinventor4823]

Using solar PV to heat water, even if that electricity is "extra", is kind of silly when using solar thermal would be much more efficient to heat water year round. It feels like one is trying to find ways to use up the electricity instead of sending it to the grid. I don't know what the situation is in the UK, or the various parts of the UK, when it comes to doing that. Do you get credit for the kWh you put onto the grid? Is it priced when you put it on the grid? Or do you get nothing for it? Depending on what happens when one puts electricity on the grid it would change what one does in response. However, one would be wise to do the most efficient action. To warm water it's more efficient to use the sun, via solar thermal, than to use solar PV. With solar thermal one is taking heat given off from the sun and moving it into the water, like a heat pump with efficiency well over 100%. With solar PV only very specific wavelengths of light are used and if you have good solar panels the efficiency is in the 20% range. Having the solar PV run the pumps for the solar thermal is the best solution.

[@solentbum]

I use solar PV to run ASHP. for underfloor heating plus hot water.

[@ciaransherry6021]

@@solentbumVery wise. Much more efficient use of energy than PWM control of resistive heaters using Eddi from Myenergi for example. The heat pump acts as an energy multiplier.

[@RechargeableLithium]

@Reid Gravelle - Sure, if one has the money, roof space, and interior space to install an optimal system, then sure - there are a number of ways to do that. For most, though, they might want or need to upgrade in sections. Maybe they installed enough PV to provide the energy they need in winter and have an excess in summer, and maybe having hot water while also shutting the boiler down for the summer is more cost effective than selling the excess back to the power company.

[@03samjon1]

Haaalright Obi-One Kenobi

[@simon7790]

PV is much more flexible. You can use the power for say the washing machine or kettle, and then when you don't need power, or have some spare, you can dump it into making hot water. Once you have enough, say a 300 litre tank heated to 65C, you can then find other uses for the power (eg car or grid). You prioritize based on your needs with PV panels. You can't do that with solar thermal collectors. If you had a solar thermal collector all it does is heat water, and once the water is hot it just sits there doing nothing. OK, it's smaller for the same heat output, but there are some disadvantages too in terms of maintenance. I've had both, and for me solar PV panels are better because they offer more flexibility and cover more needs. Maybe if you had a small roof, as the lady says, it would be worth considering solar thermal. Or just leave a panel against a south facing garden wall.

[@martingorbush2944]

8:15 Todays episode was sponsored by numer 58. ;)

[@hamshackleton]

Who or what is numer 58?

[@markiliff]

These explanations are not very clear

[@malcolm8564]

If the phase change tank fluid is four times the density of water and holds four times the heat energy, why not just use a tank with four times the volume. There was plenty of room for it and it would be far cheaper.

[@AaronCocker]

I'm enjoying the Stranger Things style intros.

[@gperch]

Love Fully Charged, as I'm into tech - particularly green tech like Tesla (even though I don't drive - only an old bicycle converted to "e"). I'm in a one bedroom leasehold flat and used the space my hot water tank took up to have a standalone shower fitted. There isn't space for ground heat pumps and I'm sure solar on the extensive shared flat roof would cost me many many (many!) years worth of even my horrendous dual fuel bill (£2500+ annually with Good Energy, hopefully less than £2000 now I'm with Green) but I haven't got the money up front for decent insulation, which would likely involve emptying the flat and insulating / re-plastering / re-painting all the ceilings and walls. Unfortunately that's something I failed to have done when I moved in and gutted the place nearly 20 years ago. If I knew then... A new combi boiler is about £1300 fitted to an existing system (you really shouldn't pay British Gas £2000 to £3000, you're better off putting the £1300 on an interest free credit card) - how much are these green alternatives? Is it the usual case where only the already well off get to save money? It's good that the pace of change is increasing, especially in the "green" sector - and I know new tech always costs more to begin with, but until a longer term working solution is agreed on, we'll keep getting new (i.e. expensive) tech every year to replace last year's. I doubt that traditional boilers and water tanks changed much in the last five decades, compared with the speed at which green tech has changed in the past five years. It's getting to be like TVs - always something better around the corner. Hopefully it will settle down at some point and we'll have systems that are equal to the lifetime of the old boiler (my cheap and cheerful £700 including radiators Jaguar combi-boiler is nearly 20 years old). Keep up the good work!

[@mralistair737]

It sounds like you have an extremely inefficient boiler! our bill is less than that for a 3 bed terrace. You are in a similar position to a LOT of people and as you say when things settle down to agreed "normal" ways of doing things then we'll be in a much better position. But it's unlikely to be a one-size fits all as it will depend on location and building etc. In your case it might be that the block can get together to do a system like the one they showed here, but more realistically you'll be putting an air-source heat pump on your outside wall (or on a roof or in the back garden) and either storing hot water or using some type of sunamp type system. the upside is that most custom built flats are more efficient, just because there is less surface area for heat loss

[@mralistair737]

Yep, Jaguar boilers are ahout 78% efficient when new, decent condensing boilers like Vaillant ecoTEC Plus 832 is about 89%. so lets say your gas is half your bill , then that's £2.5k+ you've spent on burning stuff you didn't need to. regarding insulating, it's almost never worth insulating the inside walls of houses, it's really hard to get right, raises big condensation risks and you dont get all that much effect. Loft insulation works, get decent windows and doors, after that you are really looking at diminishing returns.

[@fredbloggs72]

Another brilliant episode, 20mins long so enough time to give a quick overview of some of the market without making it too long and possibly boring. A simulant to encourage further research.

[@Pottery4Life]

Fully Charged - Showcase

[@Known-unknowns]

YES ! I’m first. Haven’t watched it yet ?

[@PeterJFlower]

Interesting programme but not informative or critical enough in my opinion. I think that Kensa shoeboxes are great and sunamp heat stores are great, but there is a missing link. Shoe boxes work best at around 40-45°C but Sunamps need more than 58°C to work. So Either the shoebox is flogging away at a COP of around 1 or the sunamp is topped up by an immersion heater (like a kettle). Where is the missing link technology here? I worry that until this temperature problem is cracked heat pumps are no better than hydrogen boilers. Has fully charged looked at the heat pump in a VW ID3? It uses CO2 as a refrigerant and is very unusual and interesting. Why don't more heat pump manufacturers use CO2? Also what about Stirling Engine heat pumps? What about the draw backs of heat pumps? I like Dan as a presenter but I wish the programme went into more depth, this subject is probably more important than the latest unaffordable Merc for the super rich.

[@ferkeap]

My energi is at a premium price imho.

[@eamonstack4139]

Excellent accessible relevant information - I am ready to replace my gas boiler now! thanks, Eamon

[@MrGMawson2438]

All good

[@ferkeap]

This is better moderated then with Robert, but it needs a bit more critical thinking.

[@bimblinghill]

This is a great intro series. Hopefully Fully-Charged will follow up with many more episodes in this vein as it's clear that there's a lot of options available.

[@housechurchuk]

Shorter intros would save energy.

[@garethedwards2883]

A great informative series and very well presented.

[@zapfanzapfan]

An entire apartment building has a water heater for each individual apartment? That seems inefficient. Don't you have district heating in the UK?

[@markgambrill]

No is the simple answer. In a block on flats each flat is treated as its own entity for that sort of thing.

[@edc1569]

@@markgambrill not really true, lots of flats in London, including new ones have district heating systems. The problem is really down to some buildings having awful historic systems and increasing private ownership. I'm sure in this install there must be a building loop that the heat-pumps run off of.

[@alexandergunda8916]

"I don't need to run my heat pump to produce hot water" - sorry, but what a misleading statement. By using the PV directly to heat up the water you get a efficiency of max. 1:1, but by using the heat pump, driven by the same PV, you get a efficiency up to 1:4.

[@mike.n.davies]

Good point. If you have PV and heat pump, you absolutely would use the excess electricity to drive the heat pump. But this is the contradiction of both solar and ASHP, you can produce max heat in the very season it is not needed.

[@mralistair737]

it's a very accurate statement he doesn't "NEED" to run the heat pump.

[@alexandergunda8916]

@@mralistair737I would expect, from an expert, to get the "best" and most efficient answer - unfortunately, in the entire series they are not highlighting the pros and cons, but maybe they are summarizing all the presented tehnologies at the end and compare them. From such a great format as "Fully Charged" I would expect to get the "entire truth" and not only a part of it.

[@edc1569]

as of today I don't believe theres anyway to run a heat pump so it uses just the excess electricity production

[@emmakavanagh6129]

@@edc1569 as I understand it heat pumps don't do well turning on and off a lot as you would get with solar PV diverter. Heat pumps work happiest with long smooth loads. Best to plug solar PV diverter straight into sunamp therefore even though it's less efficient. I currently have PV diverter to tank and hoping to get heatpump. From what I've read, I think we'll be better to have electric battery to store electric to run the heatpump and then make most of heat from the air/ground.

[@adsheff]

I'd like to get an EV charger for my parents' house. This will be used only about once a month, but struggling to find a cheap 'dumb' charger. Why are they all so expensive? So many are stuffed full of tech like timers etc that the car can already handle itself. Seems like a big waste when all you want to do is plug it in and switch it on.

[@edc1569]

portable chargers are £140-£160 for Screwfix now, they have to have tech like, thermal monitoring of the plug, DC tolerant RCD, ability to validate a good earth connection so they cost a few quid.

[@jamiefox54]

If the companies involved are paying money to fully charged or paying to produce this video, I think this should be clearly declared so we know before clicking on the video that we are watching ads. If they are not paying, then I think a better job could be done of these videos: not focusing on one company, not letting them blatantly market their products, asking some more critical questions, and making it more entertaining...

[@Michael-Wil]

Another wasted episode, more recycled interviews and no details or substance on how the technology works and it’s advantages over existing tech. How about some in depth nuts and bolts workings, some diagrams and cost comparisons in real figures.

[@GrahamRead101]

In defence of the series, I think perhaps people are misunderstanding what this mini series is for - it’s not meant to be a detailed review, it’s an overview to hint at the type of tech available; aimed at those who are beginning to consider their home energy usage.

[@cliffkennedy7883]

Anyone else feeling a CountryFile vibe going on here?

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

🤗💚👍😎💚💚💚

[@fab1978i]

Solar thermal does not pay off, ever. Solar PV with heat pump is almost in 100% of cases the better choice

[@solofreelancer]

Quite disappointed with this episode, to be honest. Not much information, and feel like the goal was to pack as many brand names into the limited time frame. Eddy was the only product that was explained well. The rest was just praises and no info that made sense. A bunch of other products were featured in the footage while telling about Sunamp, but they weren't mentioned. I wonder why? I had to Google them to see what they are.

[@hamshackleton]

You have thermal hot water from your roof - what happens in winter when everywhere is frozen solid or covered in snow or frost? Just like solar electric - there is none! These systems give you heat in summer, when you don't need it, but none in winter, when you do!

[@RechargeableLithium]

Solar thermal works in the winter. The tubes shown in this segment are insulated with a vacuum - it doesn't take much sun to heat them up. So..your assertion that there's no collection when "everywhere is frozen solid or covered in show or frost" simply doesn't apply.

[@zapfanzapfan]

You still need hot water during spring, summer and fall for showers, dishwasher, washing machine etc don't you? Like has been mentioned, maybe you won't need any fuel/electricity for your hot water for half of the year. I have next to no sun at all for 4 months during winter so in winter I'd definitely have to burn something or buy electricity for heating the water.

[@terencereeder9830]

Solar pv works from daylight = 365 days of free electric

[@hamshackleton]

@@terencereeder9830 - There's no daylight at night!

[@hamshackleton]

@@RechargeableLithium - if the tubes are covered by snow, how can they heat up to melt it thus allowing the feeble low-angle solar in - assuming no cloud cover?

[@terencereeder9830]

Just hope cladding is up to standard.wait oh no !