G2's MASSIVE MISTAKES / Does BOROS deserve all the blame? - Snake & Banter 52 ft voo

Thorin and Mauisnake are joined by voo to discuss thoughts on the PGL Copenhagen Major, success of Brazilian CS2 teams, Valve's game balancing decisions, G2 flaws, arT's poor play for Furia, disagreements on a launders video about Astralis being a superteam, BOROS taking immense blame on Falcons, ZywOo's health, and more.
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Snake & Banter is a Counter-Strike talk show, hosted by Duncan "Thorin" Shields and Alex "Mauisnake" Ellenberg, themed around each individual selecting a good, bad and ugly topic to discuss.
This video was recorded on March 22nd, 2024.
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0:00:00 - Intro
0:05:17 - voo's good point (MR12 is good)
0:22:07 - Mauisnake's good point (The "Americas" region combining North & South America)
0:30:57 - Thorin's good point (Balance between the AWP and rifles in CS2)
0:38:28 - voo's bad point (Valve's balancing decision so close to the Major)
0:49:17 - Mauisnake's bad point (G2's vetoes)
1:02:53 - Thorin's bad point (arT)
1:13:54 - voo's ugly point (The Astralis superteam narrative)
1:37:26 - Mauisnake's ugly point (Dogpiling on BOROS)
2:02:44 - Thorin's ugly point (ZywOo is ill)
#CS2
#podcast
#Thorin

[@albertocasamayor4897]

that 50 min speech Thorin does about Boros is a BANGER.

[@brendenlim2158]

A good thing about mr12 is the potential of a bo5 major grand final. I wanna see bo5s more often

[@illastration1]

I believe every grand final played on a stage under all circumstances should be a Bo5 now we have mr12. But incompetent Valve strike again and we have an mr12 Bo3 final, When it's the only match being played on the day so time constraints isn't even a factor. I've watched 2-0 major finals and thought it was way too quick. Now we have mr12 it's gonna be even worse. When you keep expecting Valve to do the bare minimum and they do even less. Valve have just been missing open goals for years now...

[@schmeed0000]

still waiting for bo21 finals

[@floofy1]

agreed. bo5s are way more exciting than bo3s thats for sure! even a 3-0 blow out gives the audience more entertainment to see how the 3-0 happens

[@evolvedHE]

Unfortunately, Valve are clueless so we're stuck with a worse tournament

[@aerrowqueing]

I agree. I feel like BO1 should be MR16 (so basically MR12 plus one Overtime), then BO3 and BO5 MR12 Would be perfect, imo

[@gem.2674]

maui saying that revealing the entirety of what boros has done behind the scenes would get him sued is insane

[@adr0it]

HOOLYYY thorin firing shots at all the casters was soooo funny

[@Biblionaut]

Completely agree with Thorin when he say content like this is missing during a major. I follow CS like a sport. But especially during the majors I'm hyper focused on it. So give me all the narratives, angles, point and dissect all the games. Yum yum yum.

[@yay1788]

1:58:27 gold right here

[@ventsiR]

1:43:00 - 1:53:00 PURE facts. There is NO argument against anything Thorin said. Didn't even mention that on top of everything else, BOROS forgot his fucking in-ears before the game.

[@b_vu]

I was not ready for Thorin flaming Launders lmfaooo

[@volify_]

When you get home and a new snake and banter was uploaded 6 minutes ago 🥳 already know the content is up to par as always!

[@dmvbawse4265]

Maui smoking that sweet Og Flusha if he thinks that monte makes the major with no sdy who needed a stand in and BOROS.

[@NFSCfan]

Oh my lord your ads are golden. Priceless. And that fact you have such creative control lol. I love it.

[@VelcroEditing]

These are always so good, cheers for the legendary shows Thorin & Maui

[@lx6381]

Thorin is so based. I have the same opinion and feelings about vertigo like him

[@williamspencer1978]

Honestly I've been loving MR12 a lot more than I thought I would. I still prefer MR15, but I've found myself watching a lot more of the games than I was at the tail end of CSGO because the time commitment is a lot shorter. The current game length feels so energetic and fast paced.

[@richardzheng231]

Was just about to go to bed... Guess I will have to stay up later than I intended

[@ervinszucs5167]

I want the launders diss into a short😂

[@olsaaan]

It doesn’t matter how well Boros has played in game. He’s with 4 players and a coach of the highest level. You wouldn’t take the piss if it was a job in high finance etc. just because it’s eSports doesn’t mean you can treat the job like that

[@PeterGembrowski]

First minute, good premise Thorin. Thanks

[@evolvedHE]

The segment about Hooxi was brilliant

[@IUHOI]

Oh, great to see voo!

[@benjaminbrackman6834]

Thank you VOO! As a 43 year old fan of sports, video games and gambling I find MR12 FAR more palatable than 15. I can confirm time in your 40s

[@j11889]

1:12:16 just curious, what players would you list for such a career? My brain thinks of niko, get_right, and f0rest, but after that i'm stuck

[@nomidu8417]

Thorin, Mauisnake, Maniac: Thank you so much for pushing out the great content so consistently

[@Tophe]

Best channel on KZbin hands down. I want to buy everyone who makes videos on here a beer or 3.

[@EP1CxSTORMzZ]

I love how thorins VINI point was still a dig at Fallen

[@kazuar87]

Thorin's accent is killing me when he's talking about inferno/vertigo around 46:30 :D

[@ElementalDj]

This one aged really well, great listen

[@marrchy2682]

2:00:00 should've talked about the EG stew situation xd

[@kenneth_romero]

with mr 12, couldn't you do best of 2s and seed based on nums of wins till bo3 to advance? then bo3 and bo5 for the rest of the tournament?

[@MusicJunkie37]

Best episode in recent memory, hope you invite voo again.

[@maisamhassani7389]

what a banger espiode!

[@Deathsentenz]

Yeah the Magisk point is spot on. I felt for him at that moment, it was all earnest team talk....

[@RobCooper-Bachatador]

Agree with Maui and Voo on MR12 It is great for viewership and if all matches are BO3, it is mostly fine. Simply fixing the 2nd round economy would make it fine. Plus there is no reason a BO1 cannot be MR15 but I also think there is room for BO2, similar to Dota2. Another positive is that we can now make all Playoff games BO5 and give the Arena fans a proper set of matches to watch while keeping it to two matches an evening.

[@AstroSully]

Superteam is not about results is about how the team was formed.

[@l1ghtny]

I completely agree about vertigo, btw

[@cinder8151]

The old Astralis core had insane individual talent. Not calling them a superteam because they played tactically is like not calling the Showtime Lakers a superteam because they had good teamwork.

[@mariushager9983]

Yep. Xyp9x was a clutch god. Dupreeh was a crazy rifler and device is one of 3 players in the goat convo. Plus magisk is the best anchor in the world rn

[@ALO_YT4453]

The irony here is the Showtime Lakers aren't a super team (at least in terms of how the expression is used in the modern NBA). The Lakers drafted all their star players (Magic Johnson, James Worthy, etc.) and had Kareem on their roster for years before they started winning anything.

[@nordlundd]

@@mariushager9983 Magisk is the best anchor in the world rn yeah, but definitively calling Astralis a superteam when they picked up a player considered worse AT THE TIME (magisk, after that weird stint in optic) than the major mvp starplayer that left doesn't really sit right with me tbh.

[@alcazar9266]

They arent a super team because they didnt pick up a bunch of star players. They had their core develop naturally and signed several players who people at the time saw as basically nobodies.

[@Horatiusxa]

I think you could help fix the economy with a few changes: -start the CTs at 2900 loss bonus instead of 1900 -make CTs surviving the bomb going off NOT give a loss bonus This reduces the impact of pistol rounds, as it gives the CT a solid force back in the second round after a loss (like the Ts get after a bomb plant). And it would help the saving problem a lot. Curious about other ppls opinions on this, it might require some other tweaks to work better, but it’s been in my head a while as a way to help fix the economy.

[@sanders2strong]

this fallen rant was hilarious

[@t3h51d3w1nd3r]

How almost nobody in the comments is talking about Maui saying he'd be sued, if he revealed what he had heard Boros had being doing behind the scenes, is fucking mental. Seriously wtf is Boros doing??

[@sentryion3106]

I think nuke is alexib is just really good at calling in nuke. They did just beat prime spirit today after all. Nevertheless, leaving Anubis in the veto against c9 is a terrible move. But it’s so weird in this angle of hooxi igl. He has played with karrigan and alexib, and yet somehow he has not let hooxi go. Despite all the flame, despite all caution, somehow jks is out before hooxi. Hooxi doesn’t look like the guy who has the ability to hold g2 on a chokehold so how is this possible?

[@uhldev]

Maui's explanation for G2's vetoes was amazing, thank you

[@SaintedPIacebo]

He has to be taking the piss saying he gets bored halfway through an mr15, thats mental.

[@cd2194]

depends on the match imo a boring match in mr 15 will still not be interesting in mr 12

[@RobCooper-Bachatador]

On top of 3 of 5 being great players for the SuperTeam criteria, I think at least one of the players has to be considered a SuperStar in their role. FaZe +ropz was a SuperTeam and not just because of name value. The reason they are a super team is that Broky, ropz and Twistzz were all Top 20 players the year before ropz joined plus Karrigan was still considered one of the best IGLs, so either ropz or Karrigan should be considered SuperStar in their role. Liquid is more of an edge case because only cadiaN and Twistzz were top 20 and you have to consider that YEKI and/or NAF is still good enough to consider it 'Super' AND you also have to split cadiaN's role and consider him a SuperStar IGL and/or that NAF is a SuperStar in his role (which I think he is but many don't) and/or YEKI is a SuperStar entry having not proven it at the highest level (Winning Tournaments).

[@B_Tannen]

The AWP crosshair shouldn’t go blurry when you get shot or burn in a molotov though. An enemy can run and gun with an SMG, prefiring the angle . Good luck hitting them before they hit you.

[@singular9]

I've said this time and again that the game is fine the way it is and it's just pros. Haven't wanted to adapt to the new meta. As a face at level 9 and level 10 player I jump up and down the rank here and there. Second round loss CT round is actually doable with the fact that the mp9 is just broken

[@decadent5341]

VOO! fuck yeah, like his style

[@trollface9903]

The reason Astralis doesnt have the reputation if being a superteam because they were in the era of all the teams that stacked star players like Faze, Mibr with Stewie and tarik, Liquid 2019 with Stewie, Navi after they removed Zeus and got Perfecto and boombl4.

[@stayhome4626]

1:37:26 Maui incredible with his ugly points

[@9111channel]

At around 07:00 Voo says that the conversion rate on winning the second round after winning first round " is like 85% on most maps". That seems completly absurd and doesn't line up with my experiance watching this mayor (or other tournaments for that matter) AT ALL. Where did you find these stats Voo? and can you share them. I would love to see the winrate of T after LOSING pistol but getting the bomb down. I would imagine it's closer to 50-50 if not even favoring the Terrorist.' @Voocsgo

[@karioa2346]

Finally have some time to watch this one! Will maui start mewing 30 mins into the show? Lets find out

[@VikashSingh]

Loss bonus is $1400, $1900, $2400, $2900, $3400. I think if they drop 1400 and baseline becomes 1900, or maybe 2400 even, it would be better ?

[@nordlundd]

Definitively calling Astralis a superteam when they picked up a player considered worse at the time (magisk, after that weird stint in optic) than the major mvp starplayer that left doesn't really sit right with me tbh.

[@ocinn2666]

changing settings before a game is not special at all denis from mouz some years ago even changed his mouse mid game its just different for every player imo

[@biozvin1285]

Watched last game because I have a little hope for my contrymen, now that astralis failed and heroic went international

[@allplaythisgame]

well the voo point about better team always getting ahead has aged like milk. I mean if you saw the major even one bit you would see how random the results are. One team getting 13-2 one match then 2-13 the next against similar opponent or a team beating all the good teams just not able to beat teams. How can imp beat vp 13-6 13-6!!! and then shit the bed the two other games. EF beating faze 13-1 on ovp and get beaten by gamerlegion by 13-4 WTF is going on here. It's the game and MR12. Voo giving that stat is an accumulation of 10 years and this is a year. It will change alot. Idk the stat but I bet you it was not 70% teams winning pistols would win the game all the time.

[@allplaythisgame]

Heroic getting 0-2d by pain. My point getting stronger and stronger.

[@itsvoo]

how often are we imagining teams come back from 13-1/2/3/4 down in mr15? ill take that results are likely more variable because it’s a new game, sure. but the more “random” a game is, the more pistols should lead to game wins, not the other way around.

[@allplaythisgame]

@@itsvooI don't know the numbers but comebacks should be a bit more doable with more rounds, more time to adjust even after a 9-0 start or 8-0 start. Now if you lose 7 rounds you have lost the half and 8-4 is even worse. On top of that, shouldn't random games should lead to just any result regardless of who won the pistol round or not because it is random. Also, my point was specifically regarding you saying that with how the game is , we are at that point where better team always prevails and I disagree with that wholeheartedly and the major is also showing that it is not the case. Mind you the playoffs are one of the best they have been since some years but some of the results are so random. You cannot take how the team played previously and guess how they will play in the next match.

[@itsvoo]

random games would lead to the pistol round meaning more because with a 50/50 outcome, 1 team needing 10 (assuming winning both pistols almost guarantees at least 1 extra round on anti-eco) is already 23% closer to winning than the team that needs 13. yeah a comeback is more likely but these sorts of 13-1 down comebacks are extremely rare. I'd have to find the data but IIRC someone found that only maybe 2%(? i remember it was really low, regardless) of games in MR15 would have a different outcome if played in MR12 (as in, the team that gets to 13 first loses to a team that was at 11 or less at the time). and that's talking about all games, not just super 1 sided ones. nonono i don't think the better team always prevails. my bad if i said something like that.. i'm not usually on shows like this i might mispeak. What I meant was that the current meta of MR12 i don't think is introducing more randomness to the game than old meta MR15 (by meta i mean in terms of saves and just how teams play around the economy and CT sides prioritizing winning with 3+ alive for money instead of just winning). Basically what I'm trying to say is if CS2 was launched with MR15 and teams never made the adjustments they've made to play in MR12, the results we're seeing would be very very similar to what we see now i didn't address but do agree that the new game in itself introduces more random elements and surprising outcomes. I'd say you're underrating how often teams got upset in previous majors but it's still probably more unexpected than usual, I just don't see that as an MR12 issue. @@allplaythisgame

[@allplaythisgame]

I agree on the psitol round part, i was just talking about your sentiment that better team will win. It's ok I understand , happens to the best of us when we are in these kind of shows and that too with thorin in there XD I am not underrating how often teams upset but I'm just talking about the inconsistency of how a team can destroy a high caliber team, next map get destroyed by some not good team and then destroy some other team again. I don't know what it is so I just assume it is the game which includes everything MR12, economy, subtick etc@@itsvoo

[@8roma8]

if u want to make brazil great again, all the teams should ship in a fallen team so that future igls con play with him in a t2-t3 team. the fallen angels, i even pitch in the name

[@pinkfloydfan22]

Thorin is 100% right about team setting,these 2 from NA dont get it cause zonic knows what he is doing and that is why europe in cs is the best region and korea and china in lol

[@pufpuff76]

Damn Voo really struggled to get that ugly point out in a clear and succinct manner.

[@nosreklem]

would be amazing if u could get richard on one of these post-major

[@aimlevel]

VOO are you VOO VOO VOO VOO?

[@Joke89ful]

VOO dude are you alive ?!

[@muumitikkari4229]

Yes he does. Simple as that (not the player)

[@Telarov]

*snack and banter

[@thelast1090]

Ermmm Inferno my favorite map to play (fck mirage) and trying to play Vertigo more as 2nd map = Thorin hates on both 😅😂😂

[@TYLERLOVESBMX1]

He doesnt want to be moses he wants to be vo0 from quake

[@reboot1337]

BOROS part 100% right, this guy had massive opportunity and he fucked that up its just unbelievable

[@mysteriousjess.]

looking at pro sentiments on boros, he seems like issa 2.0, decent/ good mechanics at his peak but completely braindead in every other aspect

[@marrchy2682]

2:00:12 maui doenst get the point. danish people are very polite BUT their CS sports culture is very direct and problem solving oriented. same with spirit btw, the few vlogs or voice comms ive heared are very harsh but completely normal in russian. if anything like donk telling chopper (16 year old at the time) you have to flash for me so i get get kills and not bait with a weaker weapon. i cant even imagine something so micro gameplay like this being said by some cs pro in NA let alone by some 16 year old kid to the multiple major attendee IGL. Another thing i think CIS region has over the rest of the world right now. They went the dota route of letting the prodigy make calls, because they understand that they have a better understanding of the game at this moment of time.

[@Mauisnake]

i get the point. look at top sports coaches in north america, they rage at players too

[@marrchy2682]

@@Mauisnake yeah didnt know why Thorin bring that up or say that it seems to be a NA esports issue. american football is extremely cut throat and zero bullshit like EU CS. Or chinese dota/league, korean starcraft back in the day. It seems NA is contempt with making 5 figure salary's and just chilling having a safe space.

[@fVNzO]

Art has the most shocking mechanics in counter strike atm. I've never seen anyone whiff a spray so consistently, so close (he's always up front), as he does. He should just play shotgun only at this point. It is shocking to see his POV these days. I am a full on art fraudmaxxer and doubter.

[@streetratt9999]

VO😍a😍

[@funkygizmo]

i think superteam should be defined as "a new lineup without prior history forming to win championships". which is why i think astralis 2018 isn't a "superteam" but rather a team that formed young, developed together, and swapped pieces around their strong core. however using thorin's rule of changing a single player constitutes a new team, that logic does make astralis 2018 a super team. its more subjective than most realize

[@kaliver517]

The etymology, I suppose, of soft American esports competitors probably tracks back to needing to be somewhat better off than the average household to be able to play games all the time, on a PC. Growing up playing sports, our coaches ran us ragged and didn't put up with any shit whatsoever, which makes esports this hilariously juxtaposed alien outgrowth. Whereas dudes like Ryan Leaf historically are the exception in the NFL, they are the standard in this scene. It's hard to fathom.

[@floofy1]

Boros doesn't deserve all the blame but he definitely has a certain degree of fault. He actually had pretty good rating, and even almost managed to clutch 1v4 a couple times. if im not wrong he even managed to clutch 1v2s and 1v3s. Do take note that i'm not disagreeing with Thorin here, i actually agree with many many of his points. What i want to express is that every team wins and loses together. the blame might be 60% on Boros but there also is 10% blame on each of the remaining members. Ofc we can tell that Boros doesnt really fit this team and all his unprofessionalism and thats why he is kicked, he is just not up to the standards and vibe of the rest of the team. Finally, great video Thorin, i always love the videos, podcasts you put out.

[@user-fc8xw4fi5v]

I agree. It was clear from the start that he and management were the only people who had any faith in him in the first place....

[@nolanthompson5855]

I agreed with Maui until thorin talked and brought up 10 good points

[@kevinmalk]

Like Thorin said maybe it was the editing and things they cut out, but I feel the way it was presented as first the coach but then every player one by one going at it was a bit rough. The coach saying it, totally valid. Another player also bringing it up totally fine. But basically everyone taking turns shitting on Boros without bringing up other any other issues and making it out like he was sole reason for them losing.

[@Gomezio]

I genuinely don't know how you can hear Thorin's response on the matter and have this take.

[@Jppanp]

Yeah, maybe he kept giving up man advantages and taking unnecessary risky duels almost constantly but hey at least he had a decent rating xdd speaking of which didn't he average below 1 rating during his time with this lineup??

[@em34ev3r]

G2 is not getting past the second stage, mark my words!

[@ellyaxo]

they do trust

[@WayStedYou]

no jks no win

[@rrk069]

Didn't age well

[@droogbear649]

Vooooooo

[@Horatiusxa]

It’s funny the little tidbit Maui said about people from New York being more direct. That’s a true stereotype, NY/Boston area ppl being “rude” compared to the rest of the country. The more I interact with people from elsewhere in the country (I’m from this area), the more I find myself frustrated with how “nice” people act to your face when you KNOW they’re talking shit and undermining you behind your back. I can think of several examples as of late where I’ll say something harsh and direct at someone which should be completely normal, and other Americans will seem shocked and caught completely off guard. With the people I went to school with, it would have totally been taken as a reasonable criticism, NOT some sort of personal attack. My friends might even fire back and we might get into a huge argument about it, but once the dust settles, things are totally fine between us. Seems like more of a foreign concept to the rest of the nation, from my experience.

[@Mauisnake]

sf, la, nyc, boston. lots of directness in those places

[@dmitrykim3096]

America doesnt even have 7 good teams, but in terms of charity so that american cs doesnt die its fine

[@MatheusRodrigues-he5fn]

Europe doesn't have it either

[@dmitrykim3096]

@@MatheusRodrigues-he5fn Lol, ok Ence and Apeks failed miserably, but do you really think that Nouns or Wildcard or Mibr are going to win against tier 2 Europe teams?

[@zettour.]

G2 vs. Fnatic on Map 3 of Vertigo at the BLAST Paris Major remains for me possibly the worst calling performance I've ever seen at a Tier 1 event. Complain about the veto all you want, G2 willed themselves to lose Vertigo. Put any other IGL in HooXi's place and they would've won. Picture this. You are HooXi. You are up 13-12 against fnatic on CT-side of Vertigo. Fnatic are known to have a much better CT-side Vertigo than their T-side. You've won the last 7 straight rounds. fnatic hasn't won a single gun round on their T-side so far. You know that Vertigo rests on A Ramp because you literally just experienced fnatic close the door on A-site against you on their CT-side. You have NiKo and m0NESY on A-site. Surely, there is no world in which you let fnatic five-man rush A-site 4 times in a row. But no, you're HooXi. You give up A Ramp control 4 straight rounds in a row _for free_ to lose. YOU HAVEN'T EVEN _SNIFFED_ a fnatic player anywhere else. But because you're HooXi, you pull huNter away from middle and lean fucking B-site where jks has been bored out of his mind. NiKo and m0NESY are trying to 1v5 and HooXi does _nothing._ I am not a G2 fan but I've never been more angry watching an IGL throw. NiKo looked like he was going to cry as he spams the smoke and run & guns desperately to get anything while 3/5 G2 players are basically AFK on the other side of the map. m0NESY is surrounded every round at Sandbags because he knows that you can't give up this much control, but not _HooXi_ who retreats G2 into elevator and let fnatic get 4 free plants with all their utility unused so they get smoked out for 30 seconds before having to fun blind through the smoke and dying. And that's just HooXi as an IGL. As in individual? Not having world-class aim and movement is one thing, but if you're going to face peek nicoodoz, when he just killed m0NESY from the same spot, you need to get back into the game because you're not playing CS. HooXi's phoning it in and has been since BLAST World Final.

[@pinkocean310]

:0

[@iamgroot3615]

so glad Voo isn’t hired by any production as an analyst. He’s so annoying

[@FRixwt]

TL:DR love the content, but Maui saying "like" too often triggers me. I can't stand maui talking when he's not sure about something. It's painful listening to "like" being said every 5 seconds. It's the same with Elige, if you ever heard him do an interview. And i'm not even native english speaker. Btw, i love the content. But please, for god's sake, maui stop that "likening" xd

[@jasper1772]

MR12 is garbage tbh

[@DanRobards]

MR12 is for the American audience. Those of us who grew up with 90min 0-0 draws have no issue haha

[@TYLERLOVESBMX1]

We need de_season, de_cache n de_thera ASAP and drop inferno and vertigo 👌👌👌 id take dust2 over either of those 🥲