Game Comparison: Stalingrad '42 [GMT] vs Fall Blau [Compass Games]

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Wise Guy History

Күн бұрын

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@MrProsat 2 жыл бұрын

As always, great comparison between 2 games on the same topic

@WiseGuyHistory 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks JM!

@bdp5742 2 жыл бұрын

I commented on your review of Fall Blau yesterday and then today discover your comparison of it and S42. I gotta tell you Nathan this is the best in-depth comparison of two games I've ever seen. I enjoy playing Simonitch's 19xx series but I'm really want to get into Fall Blau. I especially liked your comment about it's historical "flavor." And I wonder why S42 and U43 went with those bland, white background maps while they nailed it with the Normandy 44 map. That's one of the reasons I want Fall Blau-but that price, even if you can find it! If you hear that Compass Games is reprinting this please send out a blast.

@justinb7256 2 жыл бұрын

I'm pretty sure I saw something that Compass announced this week that both Fall Blau and Kharkov Battles will be republished.....

@andrewfurst5711 Жыл бұрын

I actually like the white maps on Stalingrad '42, gives the game more of a wintry feel. Also makes it remind of the old Avalon Hill "Stalingrad" game, which was of similar colors. Though the campaign started in summer, thus the green map of Fall Blau isn't really "wrong". Interestingly, "Kharkov Battles" (from the same designer, system, and publisher of Fall Blau) provides a green(ish) map for the spring battle (2nd Kharkov) and a white map for the winter battle (3rd Kharkov). As well as a third map for linking to Fall Blau (if desired).

@Stiglr 2 жыл бұрын

Ooh! Great idea for a comparison!!! Looking forward to watching this! [Later, while viewing]: I really liked the analysis of the two games' CRTs. There is where I have a decided preference (in favor of fewer, more calculated attacks in key areas over ubiquitous combat all along the lines).

@WiseGuyHistory 2 жыл бұрын

Hope you like it!

@stevebohlin7245 Жыл бұрын

Have come to the conclusion that I prefr the game with fewer DRMs🤷‍♂ Time for me to start that soft food diet. Loved both.

@Nevyd1 2 жыл бұрын

Loved this comparison thanks so much. I have enjoyed Stalingrad 42, especially the Caucasus scenario. This is because it is spread out, fast moving, intriguing terraign and the outcome hard to predict until the last few turns. A critisism though of the Urananus scenario was the 'stacking cluster' in and around Stalingrad is to me pretty well annoying (perhaps i need better tweezers lol) and rules re City Battles possibly unnecessary given the determined defense option in place. Maybe I am not patient enough. Interesting that Fall Blau may not be so cluster orientated....perhaps.

@andrewfurst5711 2 жыл бұрын

One other difference: If you have "Fall Blau", you can add "Kharkov Battles" and play an extended campaign game from the start of Fall Blau to Feb. 5 1943, as an option. Yet if you get "Stalingrad '42", while you can add the "Little Saturn/Winter Storm", it appears that this adds a December 1942 to Feb. 5 1943 scenario, but there's no mention (that I've seen) of a complete campaign game to extend it from summer 1942 to Feb 5 1943 (as you can with "Fall Blau" + "Kharkov Battles"). I would think it would be fairly easy to figure out a campaign game on one's own to take "Stalingrad '42" all the way to Feb 5, 1943 (when adding the "Little Saturn/Winter Storm" add-on), but I'm surprised that Mr. Siminovitch doesn't offer this extended campaign option (at least I think it's not offered) for those who buy his game plus the extra winter scenario. And both systems seem to come up short on having a full campaign from the summer of 1942 through at least March of 1943, when von Manstein led some impressive counter-attacks (aka "Manstein's backhand blow"). It would be nice to have the full campaign that led up to the pre-Zitadelle (aka "Battle of Kursk 1943") positions.

@andrewfurst5711 2 жыл бұрын

I can now point out that my assumptions from the above comment were partly erroneous. I have purchased Stalingrad '42 and the Winter Storm/Little Saturn extension. The turn record there calls the final turn to be Turn 45" (ending Feb. 5 1943), while the original Stalingrad '42 ends on "Turn 36" (which is December 31 1942). So with the additional counters and reinforcement schedule, as well as weather conditions, there would be no problem creating an extended campaign to Feb 5 1943. Yet the rules don't explicitly state there can be an "extended campaign scenario" (starting at Turn 1 of Stalingrad '42 and continuing through turn 45). The only thing missing would be victory conditions, and I assume you could just use the same victory conditions as in Winter Storm/Little Saturn, or better yet just make your own conditions based on historical goals. I also now have Kharkov Battles from Compass (though not Fall Blau itself), which has 2 independent games: 2nd Battle of Kharkov in early 1942 (prior to Fall Blau) and 3rd Battle of Kharkov (early 1943, post-Fall Blau). "Manstein's Backhand Blow" IS the 3rd Battle of Kharkov. These are great games which don't require Fall Blau, and frankly Fall Blau appears to be too much of a "monster" for my interest. However, there's a special map included in the Kharkov Battles box (though not used in either Kharkov Battles individual game), which extends the Fall Blau game further west than the original map. Thus it seems you can use this to extend Compass Fall Blau game to March 21, 1943. Though again I found no specific rules for such an "extended" scenario. Given that you get the map extension, counters, and reinforcement chart needed to extend the "Fall Blau" game to March 21, all you'd need to do is figure out some appropriate victory point conditions (if you care about those, rather than just playing to see who winds up best positioned in a subjective way). So the bottom line is that both games can be extended beyond their original end times, via purchasing the appropriate extensions. And in this, the Fall Blau game does go further historically than Stalingrad '42 (to March 21 1943 rather than February 5 1943), if the Kharkov Battles game is purchased and you figure out appropriate victory conditions (if desired), vs. buying the Winter Storm/Little Saturn extension for Stalingrad '42.

@andrewfurst5711 Жыл бұрын

Absolutely great video comparison of these two similar games. Very helpful too, for people considering what would be a substantial investment in money and time for either game. My decision was to go with Stalingrad '42 (GMT) over Fall Blau (Compass). My reasoning was - for one thing - that Stalingrad '42 would play much faster, without probably giving up a great deal of detail and control over the outcome. Fall Blau is just too much of a monster game for me. Stalingrad '42 would normally exceed my "acceptable monster" level as well. Yet I consider the 1942 drive in southern USSR to be of such incredible significance (the biggest campaign of the biggest theater of the biggest war) that it does deserve a very big and full treatment. So Stalingrad '42 fills that for me, and smaller footprint/less granular games or scenarios covering the same geography and time just wouldn't be as satisfying. I do also have "Kharkov Battles" (same designer, same rules) and it's a great system, just one that I wouldn't want to extend all the way to the full Fall Blau. A few other things - I prefer the look of Stalingrad '42 to Fall Blau, with the mostly white areas as compared with Fall Blau's green. The white background makes it easier to see the counters, and gives the game a more "wintry" feel. As to the victory conditions, I don't see that as a drawback to Fall Blau, as I understand them. I would not want to play using the "Hitler goals" chits, or whatever that's about. Why not just set realistic goals between players? The Nazis needed the oil of the Caucasus and the minerals and grain of the Ukraine (back when it was "the Ukraine" as part of the USSR, not "Ukraine" a country), so without those economic objectives there could be no victory. Though this highlights another difference between the games, as the Stalingrad '42 map allows a player to go futher to the southeast of Stalingrad than the Fall Blau map allows. This is important because the original Nazi goals were to reach the Volga river as a blocking action, as well as capturing the Caucasus oil. Astrakhan (just off the S '42 map) was considered a likely objective, while Stalingrad originally was not. Safe to say though that for complete Nazi victory (in the game), capturing and holding Stalingrad and the Caucasus oil, plus some troops to hold the Volga below Stalingrad, would work as "Strategic Victory". So the heck with variable and whim-driven game-goals-on-a-chit. I'm often surprised when people say: "This would be a great game, except the victory conditions seem wrong, ahistorical, etc." So change the victory conditions! No one is going to force you to adhere to the designer's victory conditions, unless you are in a tournament. Otherwise agree to some sensible victory conditions and play it out.

@WARdROBEPlaysWWII 2 жыл бұрын

Another great comparison…I just got a note that the expansion scenarios for Stalingrad is shipping soon!

@pm71241 2 жыл бұрын

I'd love to pick up both... But...then, I'd have to extend the argument to "Case Blue", "Edelweiss"/Winterstorm, "The Russian Campaign", ....

@timzales5344 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the incredible video. This is very useful info.

@paulceglinski3087 2 жыл бұрын

G'day mate . I watched the playthrough but didn't comment. Love the comparison of the two. Great job, Nathan. Cheers.

@johannbach1246 2 жыл бұрын

Greetings from Greece!! My game buddy and I are fans of you. especially your reviews and game comparisons are of a high standard! Keep walking and offering to the hobby community! Now here is the question…Have you played OCS’s Case Blue? In the case you have how do you compare its feeling, just it’s feeling not it’s complexity, to that of the these two games? Thanks again for everything you have offered us!

@WARdROBEPlaysWWII 2 жыл бұрын

Having played S42 and a few games of OCS, though not Case blue, the gameplay is much faster in S42. It’s a zoomed out approach to the battle.

@Dave_L 2 жыл бұрын

Really fascinating and super helpful. Thank you for your comparison and analysis.

@WiseGuyHistory 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Dave!

@marchanna 2 жыл бұрын

thanks for the comparisons. both games are too large for a reasonably-sized kitchen table, which seems to me rather unnecessarily limiting the utility of these games. A form factor of 3x4 feet for these games ought to be possible. Don't these designers care about being able to actually play the real game or are they depending on people to play these games on VASSAL? It seems to me to be a worthwhile design goal for games but apparently historicity is more significant. By the way it's funny you should consider Stalingrad 42 more mathematical! You're right! This in spite of Simonich's desire that these stack calculations be avoided, his games actually encourage calculations every single time! :)

@toddalancox 2 жыл бұрын

A 3x4 form factor would make S42 a completely different game (scale, units). Thankfully, there’s clearly a market for larger footprint games and I think plenty of people are playing the physical games (and plenty with Vassal too, though for me that tends to be about playing a monster game without dedicating your gaming space to a single game for a long time). While I’m sure it does limit the audience some, games at this scale allow some more interesting movement and mechanics while still being able to cover large operations that you just wouldn’t get in a small footprint. IIRC, Marco Omnigamer played S42 on the floor!

@marchanna 2 жыл бұрын

@@toddalancox Agreed. You're right, there is a market and in fact I own Stalingrad 42 but when I opened the box was disappointed I couldn't squeeze it on the table. It's up to these game companies to sort out their demand and they do it via the P500 method, and that's fine. Marco could probably get away with playing it standing on his head but that's not my preferred gaming stance :) cheers thanks for the comment

@MrProsat 2 жыл бұрын

Clear out the garage. You will have lots of room, then!