Why Geeta was made Terrible on Purpose (and why that's a good thing) // [Game Designer Explains]

The Champion of Pokémon Scarlet and Violet is widely regarded as the weakest Champion in the franchise to date.
But have you ever considered that might be intentional? And what the possible reasons behind such a decision could be?
Channel Discord: / discord
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Timestamps
0:00 Intro
2:17 (Skip the Midfinite joke)
2:38 The Issues with Geeta's Team
3:45 The Role of Champions
4:19 Geeta's Actual Design Goals
5:08 Evidence (Levels and Story Beats)
6:48 Paldea's True Champion
8:17 The ACTUAL Design Philosophy of Geeta's Team
9:30 Paldea's Elite Four
10:37 Improvements to Geeta
11:23 Closing Thoughts
12:09 Outro
----
0:13 - Ray, a Ray of Light in the Darkness [Ghost Trick, Phantom Detective]
2:39 - Champion Geeta Battle Music [Pokémon Scarlet & Violet]
5:10 - Pursuit ~ Lying Coldly [Ace Attorney Investigations]
5:13 - COMPLICATION [Ghost Trick, Phantom Detective]
6:57 - Battle Vs Nemona (Masters Remix) [Pokémon Masters EX]
7:09 - Flirt with Bomb [Yakuza Kiwami]
7:14 - Battle Vs Nemona (Masters Remix) [Pokémon Masters EX]
12:09 - 221B Baker Street [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]

[@GoldenOwl_YouTube]

Ladies and Gentlemen, as of the second DLC, what has been predicted in the video has come to pass: Geeta has received a proper Rematch battle, where she now leads with Glimmora and ends in a Tera Flying Kingambit. She at last has received a battle worthy of her Top Champion title

[@pr1nc3y25]

I'm so happy with her new team as this feels like her 'true' team. I believe she had a weaker team in the league because her job wasn't to gate keep the Champion rank, but more to judge trainers and encourage them to get stronger, which would be near impossible if she was going all out. So she hinders herself by using weaker Pokemon and unoptimal strategies so as to not discourage the students. But here, as the player has already proven themselves to be Champion rank, Geeta can go all out and use her stronger Pokemon.

[@bensell982]

She also swaps out Gogoat and Veluza for Chesnaught and Dragapult.

[@panzerldr5724]

I still feel that being so weak compromises her ability to be seen as a believable champion storywise. Even if her role isn't to be a final boss, she's still a champion, and needs to be at least somewhat believable. But when even the most casual player can observe her AI's decision-making and see it as basically throwing, as well as her team being as abysmal as it is, I think that harms her ability to serve that role. Gameplay and story are not disconnected, and a poor gameplay experience can take you out of the story.

[@davifelizardo4187]

I agree with you, but after watching the video I really come to appreciate her team for what it is, so my only changes would be to put Glimmora on the the first slot and Kinggambit as her ace, softlock her on using mortalspin at turn one(if the player didn't bring a steel type) , give Glimmora a focus sash so one way or the other she sets up toxic spikes, put other good held itens on her other pokemons and maybe changing some of her moves. I think that would upgrade the difficult of her fight(since she is a champion trainer after all), stop this dumb discussion about her Glimmora and still keep her role as a prelude to the real final boss of the League Route, because just as one of the comments at the start of the video said "It's a real shame that her fight is easier than some of the members from the Elite 4".

[@mertensiam3384]

Not to mention she literally states to be "utterly incapable of holding back" so this lackluster team is all she can do

[@avanelletheclockfriend2515]

My thoughts exactly. Saying she sucks on purpose doesn't change the fact that she sucks. It wouldn't have been an issue if she hadn't been constantly built up to be a challenge throughout the game. It's not just a letdown, it's a letdown that also robs you of any satisfaction of putting an unlikable character in their place. It's like meeting an obnoxious snob who annoys you online to settle things with an irl mutual beatdown only to discover you've actually been beefing with an 11 year old who knows big words. Winning doesn't feel good it just feels like you wasted your time having any expectations at all. It not only leads to disappointment where beating her doesn't even feel like an achievement, it kinda reflects badly on Nemona in a way. Like, girl, this is the lady you look up to so much? The one who has quick attack on her Espathra's moveset? The one who uses a Gogoat and not literally any other grass type in the region? She's been your idol all this time? Honestly, I'd say Geeta is to Pokémon champions what Dark Nebula is to Kirby final bosses. Buildup with no payoff who's most notable trait is being easy to the point of not even being fun. Except Dark Nebula wasn't built up to be strong throughout the game only to fail to deliver, and thus was only a disappointment due to directly following the significantly more difficult and fun penultimate battle. ... Ok, actually, I'll admit I was a bit harsh with that comparison. Sorry Dark Nebula, I'll never insult you like that again.

[@mertensiam3384]

@@avanelletheclockfriend2515 I agree with you 100% You can make Geeta feel like she deserves her title and praise while still making Nemona stronger and the climax of the game Saying her being weak is great is like saying making the final rival battle or the elite 4 complete pushovers because they're not the champion is a good desicion for the gameplay

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

​@@avanelletheclockfriend2515BEST COMMENT! This NEEDS to be written as a main comment not just a response. Too much truth here especially with the Kirby reference

[@qyxgames]

I think this is the same "Storytelling vs. Gameplay" conflict that Gen2 had when making Kanto's gym leaders low level

[@davifelizardo4187]

I'm gen 2 fan myself(it is my favorite generation tied with gen 5) and even I agree with the sentiment that on G/S/C the level curve of Kanto was as fuck as the midgame of Jotho. The leaders there should be at the same level of elite 4 and the random trainers of that region should never drop below level 40.

[@shitsalad429]

Isn’t it the reverse problem? She’s supposed to be strong but the gameplay needs her to suck?

[@qyxgames]

@@shitsalad429 No. Supposedly, all champions are challenging but due to Paldean lore she needs to be weak and have Glimmora as her last Pokémon. Thus, gameplay suffers from this design choice

[@SynthWeaver]

Try cristal kaiso, I just beat brock after 130+ hours

[@nohrianscum9791]

The Gen 2 level curve has the weirdest spike in the series. You go from Blue's mons hovering at just under 60 to Red and his level 80 Pikachu.

[@obits3]

Crazy theory: Geeta purposely threw the fight with Nemona because she knew winning would result in an endless series of battles. Geeta is only testing you because she needs to pair someone up with Nemona before Nemona gets too restless. Her team is just good enough to convince Nemona that Nemona is fighting a fellow champion. She’s basically like “Oh no! You beat me. I guess you will have the pleasure of battling Nemona for eternity.” The player: “What!?!” Geeta: “No take backs. Peace out.”

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

Honestly, about all theorys i heard of Geetas team this is what i have thought of and think is most likely, but i also belive it to be uter fan fiction

[@blueberryoatmeal4009]

Hm.

[@hamdepaf6686]

I have a similar "Theory", but more in line of she is intentionally handicapping herself. Handicap being the keyword here, you can still fight "without holding back" if you make yourself rules, like trowing your favorite Pokemon out last, even if that is a bad idea normally. Similar to how a chess pro could play without a queen and rooks, to even the playing field, but not having to think about what level of play is appropriate with every move, because like yea, holding back at an appropriate level is hard, very hard. This is very in line with her personality and how she leads her Elite 4. It's a test, not a competition to "be the strongest". There are multiple champion trainers unlike other generations. Geeta has no need/will to protect a title as the strongest, her Elite 4 and Gym challenge is focused on nurturing talent, not a competition. This theory is supported by her updated team in Blueberry Academy, where she doesn't fight as an assessor, but as herself. Like that is much more likely than her just being a bad trainer beforehand and now having learned to properly battle after, what? A few months? With like no incentive to get better? Not like she wasn't beaten before countless times. Also she mentions "being incapable of holding back" as a bad thing, like she tells you straight up, "I think my test is too hard still, perhaps I should make it easier", it's obvious she wants to be beaten. While all the other champs, good sportsmanship aside, never wanted to be beaten, their goal always was to defend their title.

[@TheDeathmail]

Wait, one issue is that Nemona is basically the girlfriend forcing you to try out her hobby..... So Geeta needs to push nothing.... Nemona already pushed everything onto you anyways...... your girlfrie- I mean, "rival" made the decision for you....

[@caedrewan]

we wouldn't have cared so much if the character wasn't hyped up so much - "a champion of champions". If they called her a league administrator, which is what she is, no one would have batted an eye

[@polwigle]

The thing about Geeta's "Top Champion" role in the League tests is that by definition she's the weakest Champion in Paldea, bc every other Champion gets that title by defeating her! In any other region's system, Nemona would have been THE Champion, and Geeta would have been dethroned long ago...

[@caedrewan]

@@polwigle that's actually a great point - so I definitely forgot, you're not just a champion after beating the elite four, you actually have to defeat Geeta? 'cause then you're bang on

[@BladeSerph]

Really she could of been a better done Decoy, by having SOME of her pokemon in a proper position, such as having King Gambit be the 2nd in the line up and Glimora be 3rd or 4th, so she could of atleast been a teaching simulator of special pokemon abilities like Toxic Spike spreadin & stat boost thru unique conditions... Since its not like the Paldea gym leaders or random trainers ever did a fking good job on living long enough to teach unique tactics unlike some other generation `boss fights to actually be feared.`

[@polwigle]

@@BladeSerph ...Kingambit DOES come out no earlier than 2nd. She always leads with her Espathra, which to be fair is actually an effective deterrent for setup sweepers with its Opportunist ability. And sorry to hear you got too good to learn from the gym leaders, but I did pick up on some neat tactics from some of them on my first playthrough, like "almost all of the Grass type's weaknesses are themselves weak to Rock" and "Tera Electric + Levitate = no type weaknesses at all".

[@BladeSerph]

Its Honestly been a while since i actually played Violet since it was that unmemorable compared to previous entries. Since it fell into it being too easy to power level due to the open world and crap ton of easy to `hop in and out tera raid battles` and just have the Magician Cat literally bomb everything dead. Thanks to those auto crits and it was only near the end of the game when i wanted to actually switch up my team to forcibly attempt to spread out into a coverage of various types and physical and special attackers. Yet it was still another case of the Starter could carry the match and because EXP share was always permanently up i had little care to switch things up. Probably did not help that even non-desc. trainer battles i had to force myself to scour the map forhad such micro team comps and loads were even way below the level of the wild mons in the nearby area made it hit harder. Because this latest generation took away the actual `road blocks` so much, now it felt just as boring as when i picked up Dragon quest treasures in terms of actually playing, and that one was literally mobile game as a console game with ridiculously bad menuing, unit management and perpetually boring tasks of finding `treasure` to raise a number to get minor bonuses but your still doing the same exact thing with next to nil differences in the entire game, just like how Violet/Scarlet felt to really dissuade me from caring about the DLC. Also, i would not really say Tera electric+levitate is a neat trick, because again, Neutral Auto crit bombs and Ground negates electric attacks and Grass takes half the damage alongside Dragon and Electric also. Not to mention the Cat alongside having Dark type can pretty much cover a large portion of the `story fights` thanks to that and again, Grass auto crit bombs and ridiculously easy power leveling can delete the majority of even type disadvantage till you actually play against real players instead. Oh did i forget to bring up the fact the Flower bombs also have guranteed accuracy, so that really sells home why its one of the most busted starters i`ve recalled in a pokemon game? @@polwigle

[@zaclittlejohn2701]

The problem is that the player NEVER knows she is a "decoy" like they know with "definitely not Clavell". Every pokemon game before this had story beats in the postgame that resemble the Nemona fight, so its assumed to be postgame content. Which leaves a lackluster fight that cares more about thematics that actually delivering on the promised dificulty everyone assumes from the title of Champion. Its like if they left the iconic final rival fight in Gen 1 till after the credits rolled and you went back to Oaks lab for the battle.

[@davifelizardo4187]

I think that this is main reason behind most people not noticing her role as a decoy final boss. Like Pokemon is a 25 old franchise where the Champion was the indisputable final boss of all other gens until now on gen 9. And the only other exception being Black and White 1, but even then Geshits and N still fill that role for the game being fought right after the Elite 4 and being the climax of the game story.

[@brandonpierce2539]

Exactly, and even if we didn't have 25+ years of Champion expectations to mislead us, that's no excuse for the laughably mediocre fight we did get. All the thematic story dressing and well intentioned design philosophy in the world can't save such a "bass ackwards" team comp, but I'm just preaching to the choir at this point 😅

[@Ditidos]

What do you mean? The credits don't roll until you fight Nemona. After you defeat Geeta you are just at the entrance of the Pokémon League.

[@zaclittlejohn2701]

@Ditidos the credits roll at the end of Area zero, not fighting Nemona. It's just odd that of the 3 paths, Geeta is the easiest penultimate boss. Clavell and the tatsugiri/dondozo boss fight are arguably both harder. I did the final spice quest at around level 40-45 ish though, since I saw Arven's mabosstif and instantly decided that was gonna be the 1st path I finished.

[@Ditidos]

@@zaclittlejohn2701My bad for the credits thingy. I beat the game quite a while ago, even if I remember clearly not seeing the credits before fighting Nemona. I cannot give much of a comment there either since I also fought Arven first, Penny second and the league third. Mostly because I was building up the Pokémon League, which in general was a huge dissapointment, but I do play weird so some battles claimed to be hard by people (like Volo) were cakewalks for me so I'm unsure it being easy for me was reasonable. That said, it wasn't so easy that I could get cinematic with her, like I did with Volo and other very easy bosses, so she probably has a minimal backbone.

[@juriartt]

I understand the idea that she's not the true final boss, but I would still change her framing. Everything in the story tells us how amazing she is, she says how she will "not hold back" and then... it's an underwhelming battle. They could have used the school theme and framed La Primera as a former teacher, someone that used to teach and is now in the League testing new champions. Her identity could be hidden, with only the champions knowing who she is, and the game could pepper little red herrings on the different gym leaders and teachers, trying to misdirect us on who could be La Primera (doesn't need to be that good, it's still Pokémon), and Geeta shows up every once in a while with her biome appropriate Pokémon, also showing a gradual evolution of her power. Then you get to the League and get the surprise that Rika, the most plausible candidate, ISN'T the leader and Geeta reveals herself. She also says that she WILL hold back because she's still a teacher and wants to see her student succeed. After the battle she can even give an explanation that she used her Pokémon in the "wrong way" on purpose, to give as a chance and teach us a lesson in strategy. Then she could be an optional boss with higher level Pokémon and using the right strategy. Done. She can be weak, not the true final boss, be a fun challenge like Red was and the story themes are all tied up.

[@miimiiandco.8721]

Geeta does appear in the Academy Ace Tournament, which would be a great place for a full-power rematch.

[@cameronlapp9306]

Yes, it's an example of missing "show don't tell". Everyone hypes her up but she has very little actual character - like you say, the rest of the elite four members are all more interesting. The rest of the gym leaders are more interesting as well. So the only thing we get is that she's the top battler, and then she's very disappointing as a battler. Good points in the video, but in that case have Nemona not idolize her constantly and play her up as more of an explorer to accentuate the team theme. I would just delete Geeta and give more spotlight to one or more of the existing Teachers - a lot of them are buried in completely optional content and it would have been cool for the school theme to tie in more on the other quests. Geeta is nominally the head of the school but that mostly just serves to undermine Clavell's framing for no reason.

[@juriartt]

@@cameronlapp9306 Clavell would have been better in the role, and it would be a small plot twist since his disguise is so bad 🤣 It would be funny to find out after everything that he's amazing at battles and stuff.

[@madnessarcade7447]

Gee it’s almost like difficulty is irrelevant and that lore and worldbuilding is a bigger priority Game mechanics side isn’t everything sometimes the lore is more important if geeta’s team benefits the lore then her difficulty is irrelevant

[@KingTwelveSixteen]

The real problem here is just that she opens the fight with boasting that she is 'too strong' and 'incapable of holding back' then immediately follows it by being weak in a way that is clearly holding back. If she opened with 'I'm very strong so if I don't hold back hard enough in this fight I preemptively apologize' then people would have complained WAY less since the bits where she sends Pokemon out in the wrong order suddenly have in-universe purpose. You gotta have gameplay and story INTEGRATION rather than separation, otherwise it just feels really weird.

[@fireflocs]

I've always been of the mind that just because a game design decision is intentional doesn't mean it's good for the game.

[@intergalactic92]

And I always maintain that just because something is easy doesn’t automatically make it bad.

[@miimiiandco.8721]

​@intergalactic92 But using your Toxic Spikes lead last is a bad idea.

[@blueworld1825]

​@@intergalactic92 I mean, when it comes to video games it does. What gamer would want their bosses (final or not) to ever be easy?? That would make your gaming experience boring.

[@PGerman.]

I think my biggest critique is that the expectations were too high. I think most people realized that the battle maniac Nemona would want to rematch us once we achieved champion rank, and probably realize that that's how the league story ends. But from past games a champion is not just any stepping stone, but a major one. We expect champions one way or another to challenge us at least somewhat. I think the designers wanted to make us feel like we just reached the same rank as Nemona, but in all honestly hearing that Geeta is such a powerful champion, and her even saying that she doesn't hold back made the victory feel like trainers in the region are just a lot weaker or more incompetent, seeing as how Nemona deifies her. On my first playthrough I think I only used one or two Pokemon at most and remember the feeling of disappointment I felt at that fight. I also didn't like Nemona since she was presented as just a battle maniac with nothing else going for her besides wanting to battle the player whenever they grew slightly stronger. Her battle was slightly better but also not the most challenging. The player encounters her team multiple times so you could easily predict what she would have if you rememberd right. And I rememberd her having Lycanrock as the lead, so I had my Tinkaton with Giganton hammer at the ready. I think if Geeta was slightly more challenging, I would have enjoyed both fights more. I want to at least try to think that Nemona had to struggle to earn her title and now be happy to be the same rank as her. Making Geeta too easy makes everything else that comes after just worse (at least the Nemona fight and my perception of the region's trainer as a whole)

[@Snubbybill]

A video idea I'd love to hear you talk about is the evolution of the electric gym leader. The solution to beating Surge being TOO easy to get ahold of (Dig and a cave full of fast strong Ground types) resulting in Wattson being maybe the hardest gym in Gen 3 because of the opposite availability of counters. To B/W which gives you counters to Electric but Elesa has counters to those counters for imo a fantastically designed fight.

[@Snubbybill]

I skipped over Volkner because he's an 8th gym and these other 3 have very similar placements as gym 3 or 4.

[@c3ntravaswani427]

And then back in SV the gym leader’s ace has 0 type weaknesses, being a Tera-Electric Mismagius with Levitate.

[@a-s-greig]

​@@Snubbybill I'd skip Volkner because of his Octillery

[@6ustavocosta]

What about Clemont?

[@edmg7]

Wattson isn't difficult because any of the Hoenn starters should be able to solo his gym.

[@GoldenOwl_YouTube]

There's one last point which I just realized I had forgotten to cover in the video: Geeta's usage of Tera-Rock on her Glimmora, despite it contributing almost nothing to the fight. One design decision within the game is to have each major Trainer boss have a different Type specialization (and/or Tera Type), if possible. The sole exceptions are Nemona, Clavell (because they use different Starters) and Penny (who uses Tera Fairy because all Eevee types are already represented elsewhere anyway). Atticus already has a Poison specialization, meaning Geeta gets Tera-Rock by default because no other major trainer boss in the game has a Rock specialization. EDIT: I'm beginning to regret mentioning narrative and theme as a point in this video, because too many people are hyperfixating on that and missing the main point: Geeta is not the final boss, meaning she cannot be scaled to be as difficult as other Champions. Geeta is scaled to be on par with Arven, Clavell and Penny, meaning she is roughly the 6th to 3rd last boss you fight. Meaning that designing her to be on par with Champions like Steven or Iris puts her too high above the rest of the difficulty scaling. And if you do that, you'd somehow need to make Nemona and the AI Professor somehow more difficult than an equivalent final boss somehow. And the AI Prof has a fixed maximum realistic cap on their difficulty because they use 6 Paradoxes. As a result, because her difficulty cannot be made high, she has a fun thematic theme instead, similar to the other three route bosses. Arven has his food theme, Penny has all Eeveelutions, and Clavell has "old man" Pokemon. Story structure was only mentioned to steer the topic towards Nemona, to bring up the fact that she's the next subsequent boss in the "intended battle order". Despite the narrative and thematic aspect only being a minor point, some people are focusing far too much on it and thus miss the point of the design breakdown. Because of this tendency, I'll stick strictly to design-related points and not mention story narrative at all for future videos, in order to minimize distraction.

[@polwigle]

Yeah! From a narrative standpoint, Tyme is technically the rock-type specialist of the region, but as she's not fought in the main story, Geeta gets Tera-Rock so the player gets to see all the Cool Hats for each type!

[@victzegopterix2victorindem895]

On top of that the Tera Types of the Elite 4 + Geeta are specifically the types of the Titan pokemons. That's cool. (F for the Tera of Poison and Fighting though. Iirc we don't see them before the post-game as team Star doesn't use tera and no other bosses have those two unlike for Dark (Arven), Fire (either you, Nemona or Clavell) and Fairy (Penny).)

[@parallax0814]

I like to think that another reason for her Rock Tera type is similar to one of your points in the Onix video. Klawf is the Rock Boss for the main game, and is usually depicted as being the first big boss the player fights in the game. Having Geeta have her last Pokemon Tera into Rock makes it all come full circle

[@jessegartung294]

Still better than Temtem final boss

[@miimiiandco.8721]

To be fair, very few trainers in Paldea use terastalization in an interesting way.

[@Persoon56]

I suppose my one quibble is that Geeta's overall team seems much, much weaker than a fellow decoy, her most apparent counterpart in the game, Clavell. Perhaps this is just anecdotal, but everyone I know has always had more trouble with Clavell than with Geeta. I am curious about your thoughts on the design of Clavell's team, and how it functions, both mechanically and thematically

[@miimiiandco.8721]

I guess Clavel is supposed to be an actual challenge to end Starfall Street, while Penny's Eeveelutions are a victory lap.

[@Namehere629]

Everybody knows her team is thematic, even in the videos you pointed out at the beginning. Just because she works thematically doesn't mean she makes sense as a champion and how she was built up. Just because Nemona was meant to be the true final boss doesn't mean you have to make Geeta the weakest and most mind boggling champion. The could have still made her difficult by changing the pokemon she had and still fit the theme of the region.

[@cameronlapp9306]

I absolutely did not know her team is thematic before this video.

[@mixcolorsbunny-z8748]

​@@cameronlapp9306me too lol

[@rafaelzamudio354]

No, most people don't realize it. Keep in mind Geeta needed four things: - Represent all regions of Paldea - Send Glimora last (and no, it can't be the first and then switch. It must the be very last mon she sends) - Be easy - Be a decoy There's very little room to improve her. Maybe with items and EV/IV training, but that's it. Geeta is good as she is, there's no need for all bosses to be hard (look at Dark Beast Ganon and Dark Dragon Ganon in Zelda, both incredibly easy yet memorable).

[@Namehere629]

@@rafaelzamudio354 Nobody was saying that she needed a cynthia level team in terms of difficulty, stupid. She's literally the leader of the elite 4, so we're asking her to have a team at least comperable to their level. I never said games needed to be hard either. Stop putting words in my mouth. Unlike ganon, her team is memorable for the wrong reasons. 1. Steven Stone and Diantha were also thematic that represented steven's love for researching rocks and minerals and diantha for her movie star team, which also played into the themes of the pokemon XY games. The fact that most people got their themess and didn't get Geeta's team just shows she failed in what she tried to do. 2. She didn't need to be just like every other champion in this game, especially since she is just a decoy final boss, so there's no reason for her to stick to tradition and NOT send glimmora first. 3. She does not come across as a believable (keyword: BELIEVABLE) as a champion who is "unable to hold back." Here's a solution: swap aavalugg for cetitan and gogoat for arboliva. Boom, easily made her slightly more difficult and actually using her region's pokemon. 4.This is like saying N should have been dirt easy cuz he was a decoy final boss to Ghetsis. You clearly don't know anything about what you're talking about.

[@kittyjeany]

Ok so i always got nemona being the final boss and geeta being the stepping stone. (It gave me the RBY vibes of lance being like "good job beating me, but theres someone else to defeat, remember your rival?"). she was done dirty for that purpose, but her team being based on paldeas areas is actuallly new info and pretty cool! I think, i can appreciate her way more now. But i agree, she needs a better 2nd team honestly.

[@valivali8104]

And good in-story reason why she "sucks" so badly. For example, she is shown as so busy that she doesn't have better team to use in test, all others being under- or over-leveled, is sorry about that, and says that she won’t make test harder than test of her and anyone else who has done champion test, but won’t otherwise hold back. Then players would think that either this is skill level needed to become champion-level trainer or that she accidentally hold back while trying to keep test fair.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@valivali8104 it's not that serious to need a story reason lol. Games have bosses that don't match in universe hype all the time, this really went from being a funny thing to roast to a really overblown talking point...

[@valivali8104]

@@MagillanicaLouM why have story and characters of any kind if neither actually matters? They clearly wanted that players care about Geeta but then betrayed them by making her characterization mess; why is that alright?

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@valivali8104 story matters, I'm just saying her being an easy boss fight in a series notoriously filled with easy boss fights despite lore hyping up their strength isn't something that demands an in story reason for her being easy. You just don't suck at Pokemon, all there is to it

[@valivali8104]

@@MagillanicaLouM like who?

[@valivali8104]

Why not give her in-story reason to "suck"? Like that her other teams are under- or over-trained (aka -leveled) thus she doesn't have better team for test purpose; under-trained team would bee unfair to others who try to get champion level, and over-trained would bee unfair to player character. She also says that she won’t demand player more than what she and every other champion was demanded, but won’t otherwise hold back. That way players wouldn’t have expected too much from her fight, just treat it as test to see if their character is champion level trainer.

[@TheAmberFang]

Another potential solution, since you brought up the possibility of Geeta and Glimmora being designed in tandem, is to change the way Glimmora is designed for battle. At the very least, have an alternate Ability that makes more sense for an ace, since Toxic Debris being obviously totally useless still isn't really justified with your arguments. I get her being weak relative to other champions because she isn't the capstone to the adventure unlike the others, but she can still do with appearing more competent. Alternatively, going with your hope that she'll have a rematch in DLC, they could have removed anything about her "not holding back." Maybe she could even explicitly be holding back: to acknowledge, in-universe, that Nemona is the actual final challenge (of that specific story) and to mirror the way Nemona had also been holding back the whole time. The only issue is that this commits to Geeta eventually having an actual fight of her "not holding back"-which they may not even intend to do.

[@jaernihiltheus7817]

They could've done an HGSS Bugsy think where Glimmora has a move that switches itself, and/or an Eject Button or something. That way it comes out first, gets a Toxic Spikes out, then switches to the back to serve as her ace - all the while fulfilling the pokemon's niche.

[@itsvairen334]

I was also thinking that its also just the fact of well...Champions are treated differently in Paldea. There's no real demotion or idea of "there can only be one champion for every region" like other games. Geeta's team feels like something someone is SUPPOSED to succeed at, she isn't out for blood nor to keep her job in tact. She's there to test you, nothing more, nothing less which really brings home the whole theme of this region being based off of one huge university. If a teacher is bringing their all to want you to fail, well, that's the sign of a bad teacher after all.

[@mertensiam3384]

I mean, I guess, but she's so hyped up to be so strong, and even she hypes herself up by saying shes utterly incapable of holding back, only to be a pushover

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@mertensiam3384 That's just in universe hype not matching player skill (which I've seen folks legitimately struggle with her or say they have anyway) which for games in general, not even Pokemon isn't a rare thing. Plenty games across the board have final bosses that were an easier time for a player than an earlier one, mileage varies on how much that bothers said player. Though also Geeta isn't even a final boss anyway so eh lol. But for Pokemon specifically, difficulty complaints aren't new anyway. And again it's different, I've seen many say S&M were easy but i would've lost my first time beating Alola's league if not for the affection endurance mechanic (which is why I'll never bad mouth that feature lol) as someone who's been playing main series since gen 3-4

[@mertensiam3384]

@@MagillanicaLouM you can still make weaker but not make her seem stupid Had they not decided glimmora was her ace, I honestly wouldn't have had many complaints. It's just that her current team makes her look like she doesn't know what she's doing and that she doesn't know how to make the best of her pokemon's potential Like. Make glimmora her first, and if kingambit is too strong for what she's supposed to do, give her another Mon to be her ace. Or make her send her ace first and then switch out. I don't want her to be overpowered, but it's strange how much she seems to be holding back for someone who is utterly incapable of doing that

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@mertensiam3384 More of a marriage between in universe team set up and actual game mechanic competency is needed and would be cool if done more consistently. But it's an issue that's been present in the series for a while, it's just kinda jarring to see it be this blown up over Geeta in particular.

[@mertensiam3384]

@@MagillanicaLouM I'd say it's because she's specifically given the title of La Primera while she's outpowered by a trainer with a "lower rank" But yeah, it's an issue that pokemon has had for a while and I think Geeta is a prime example of it

[@Cloud_Dancer]

Speaking of the league group as a whole, it’s also interesting to point out how the signature typings of the Elite 4 and Geeta represent the Titan Pokémon, with Rika as Great Tusk/Iron Treads, Poppy as Orthworm, Hassel as Tatsugiri, Larry as Bombirdier, and Geeta as Klawf

[@BaconNuke]

I get maybe she "isn't" meant to be a final boss but like.. when you tote her as the "Top Champion" and is after the E4 there is a minimum difficulty people expect.. I'm fine with Nemona and Post game fights being tougher, but Geeta should have at least shown off at least a small part of possible challenge, like even Diantha from XY, the previous holder of "worst champion" has at least been said could be tough if level caps and weren't using every gift you are handed.. I get "story" but there is also the expectations from players... like you at least expect walking into the Champion battle you are gonna have a battle ahead.. Black and White played with this since.. you don't even fight Champion Alder until the Post game.. so despite technically N being the "current champion" he doesn't full that role and the player isn't expecting to actually fight a "champion team" they expect "Evil Team boss" which.. then still gets bit muddled with Ghetsis existing.. I digress.. saying Geeta isn't supposed to be the final boss of the "Victory Road" route is like if in HGSS they lowered Lance since "eh it's a formality, go fight Red as real boss" I know it's not a perfect comparison but my point is there I think Also the argument of "you only see Geeta few times and she doesn't do much" can apply to.. other champs.. Diantha has like.. two conversations with you before the League, neither hinting at her being the champ.. Steven and Cynthia.. kind of do stuff but not really? They just stand there and are like "hey player, do this" despite them.. being champs and totally can just handle the evil teams by themselves.. and any rival champs (ie Blue/Green and Trace) you aren't supposed to perceive them as who will be the final boss so they shouldn't count, much like Nemona.. and ironically Leon as a champ *does* do stuff without the player and.. is actually successful since you see stuff as your journey continues.. and only time Leon does the standard "Step aside so player can save the world" is when you are about to fight him, you are on his level and he is admitting it And your thing about thematic stuff and whatnot.. eh... still would prefer Glimmora to be sent first.. since it could lead to an iconic opening since.. it is a spikes setter in a casual playthrough.. like that would stick out much like how Spirtomb opening in Cynthia's battle was since.. it had no weakness (at it's inception) and it would be a mysterious mon most players wouldn't have seen yet.. and the issue of her Tera? Have her be unique and whoever is sent last gets Tera'd.. it'd throw people off who are like "yeah prepare for her tera Espathra" or whatever (I know Kingambit would be best out last but seeing as Steel was an E4 member and Dark Tera hat doesn't look final boss-y enough for me.. I dunno) Overall Geeta to me made me just kinda think "okay.. Elite 5.. so.. Nemona true boss? Why waste my time with Geeta? Legit can just do story bs reasons for us to fight at the end" Side note... the E5 should have just let us refight them much like... every other game... I get there is the academy tournament but that's just Hassel and Geeta.. and you aren't even guaranteed to get them.. Larry gets.. a gym refight (so 1. not even his E4 team and 2. it's once) so the other 2 are forever just... existing...

[@lacuevadelosrpg4070]

I love the lore around nemona. She's that strong that decided to nerf herself in order to have a challenge against the player. Another thing that I love about her is her battle theme. It makes us feel like playing against a friend rather than some serious bad ass player. She is probably one of the best rivals we had in pokemon. My vote for next topic could be Leon ❤

[@kami_97]

I loved that all gym leaders in SV feels like they have a true job and being a gym leader is more a fun pass time they do to engage with the children and teach then about things. It's like a egg hunt in Easter or "trick or treat" in halloween.

[@robinnewhouse1563]

That Kung Pow skit at the beginning just made my day😂

[@GoldenOwl_YouTube]

That movie has too many good skits. It feels like everytime I plan a funny skit, Kung Pow just outdoes it. I was originally going to use the Family Guy skit where Meg complains about the others being better than her

[@robinnewhouse1563]

@@GoldenOwl_KZbin thankfully you chose this one instead, it just nails it😂 and yeah that movie is so underrated and the humor just amazing

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

Storywise, it's also important than Glimmora is her ace. It's a Pokemon that is directly linked to Tera (The only way to get more Tera Blast is to beat ot or it's pre evo), and it pretty much only appears in Area Zero (Glimmet is a rare encounters in a few caves, but you'll likely to never get it). Nemona even points it out, so for some reasons, they wanted you to notice (I'm not going to speculate about why here, since this isn't a theory channel). In a way, her being so weak add to her mysterious air and helps making her memorable, though I am not certain how accidental this is

[@a-s-greig]

She's going to have more to her in DLC.

[@lukebytes5366]

I still think it should've been her lead, solely for the subversion. terastallizing the first pokemon she brings out would've been a neat surprise, and would be perfectly in line with her "not holding back".

[@brandonpierce2539]

I'm sorry, but even that's no excuse for the laughably mediocre fight we did get. All the thematic story dressing and well intentioned design philosophy in the world can't save such a "bass ackwards" team comp. It's like building a concrete staircase but replacing the final step with an 1/4 inch thick mosaic stained glass window, it's pretty to look at and a lot of work went into it, but it's gonna crack and the player is the one that's gonna take the fall.

[@Zaxophone32]

I think this analysis is spot on. My first thought after defeating Geeta wasn't "that was disappointing" it was "hell yeah, I get to take on Nemona!" At least for me, the story made it clear she was my final goal, not beating the league.

[@GoldenOwl_YouTube]

I wasn't originally intending to use Kung Pow for the Intro again, but that movie has too many good punchlines. I've finished moving from Singapore to New York and the semester has started, so you can now look forward to videos at a more regular pace again. Let me know what topics you'd like to see covered.

[@jonathantonner4263]

Thanks for the music timestamps!

[@darkking4979]

I'm excited for the updates Glad the move was successful

[@jessegartung294]

She's still better than Temtem final boss. I don't know if you have discord or not, but the final boss in temtem sucks. I know youtube will take down any video links so I will describe you to it. Imagine in Legends Arcues that the twist villain wasn't Volo but Lavender. Who has a flimsy excuse's, then he summons Garatina only for you to find out you don't battle Gartina but it acts like a timer. You instead battle the professor and there isn't a second phase or third. And when then it tease you with a battle with Gratina only for the Diamond and Pearl clan to appear out of nowhere and summon the Forces of natures which summons a giant laser beam that blast both Lavender and Garatina and the game cuts to credits. I know it's long but that's the climax for Temtem. I have autism BTW. But yea the climax to Temtem sucks. Also its why I don't hate professor Rose because he's better than the villain in temtem.

[@juicegirl2696]

“geets isn’t supposed to be the final boss; Nemona is” he says as Nemona gets absolutely swept in the background

[@000Dragon50000]

A postgame Geeta fight where she actually goes all out would be amazing.

[@Kayume]

As the only person on earth who hasn't actually played S/V (or so it feels), I honestly thought Geeta was an Elite 4 member with Nemona being the "known" champion. This was a very fun way to be corrected and learn more about design considerations in the process! Thank you for creating it!

[@Emily-lh6em]

Are you planning on playing it eventually or just skipping it? 😅

[@miimiiandco.8721]

I mean, some people call her the 5th member of the "Elite 5" as a joke.

[@xmaswolf8733]

Loved this video, for Geeta’s team I always felt she shouldve had a Gholdengo and maybe even Palafin as well

[@miimiiandco.8721]

I think a Ceruledge or Armorogue would work well - I usually associate Charcadet with the same area Gogoat comes from, anyway.

[@TheDeathmail]

I just realized what the stories for the 3 lines are simplified like this Titans: Helping heal a friend's dog while also healing your Pokemon. Star: Helping the school rehabilitate bullied kids and stop them from being bullies Victory Road: Your girlfriend decides your job for you OR your girlfriend wanting you to have interest in her hobby Victory Road is the most personal one with the least benefits. The other 2 are about helping either the school or yourself AND gives you great rewards. But Victory Road is just about making Nemona happy....

[@francisgalluzzo3528]

Thank you for explaining how her team represents all the different locations, I had never considered that. It makes so much more sense now!

[@poppyfrancis7338]

The fact that Geeta is well thought out as a boss kind of gets under my skin a lot more now because there is a one word change to the entire script about Geeta that makes her team being garbage less insulting, and its going from calling her the strongest to simply being the head champion. It implies that she's on top for a reason that's more than just being unbeatable in battle so when you find out she's easy, its not underwhelming that the strongest trainer in the game is easier beaten than every rival fight.

[@assortmentofpillsbutneverb3756]

She's not well designed. She has a concept that was hit, but the concept does not play well. You could do every part of her concept while still being a more challenging fight with her using her mons to full advantage. This happens a lot with design. Just because there is a cool concept and the concept was achieved, it does not mean the design is hit in the overall scheme of things. Funnily enough this is a problem with "good design" as well. Just because something is good design, does not mean it has to be strictly stuck to. Good designs can break synergy, game flow, and many other things when used poorly.

[@MegaMachiOnline]

People really call her team trash, then use like 4/6 of her party competitively lmao

[@abejandro1462]

My only complain about her team is she doesnt have a Palafin. There are not a single trainer in all paldea with a Palafin and for me, she should have one :(

[@vincentsissom4180]

An interesting way of making this work would be, in the Ace Star Tournament, have it so that Geeta starts with Glimmora, have it go Tera Rock, and save Kingambit for last, to make it so that you recognize that, while she said previously she wasn't holding back, you are able to tell that she was forced to, not because of wanting to go easy on you, but because of Nemona. Geeta likely would have realized that Nemona would want someone on her level to battle, and held back so that, when there was someone else who defeated Geeta, Nemona wouldn't feel lonely at the position of Champion. Then, after you go into Area Zero and save the region, she could have been like "Yeah, now he's ready for me at my best." And came with her Champion Team, but properly organized for those in the tournament. Then, when you noticed she starts the battle with a Tera Rock Glimmora, you would know she is done holding back.

[@MmeCShadow]

Another point about the League in general is that they're just a final exam. Like literally they're part of the schol system. Beating them gets you your GED. Geeta's just a test administrator and 'Champion' is a title given to top trainers of the local academy rather than the winners of a national sports league. It's a very different setup, and while I don't think the game necessarily emphasizes this well there may also be an expectation set up by the previous games.

[@AlanRedgown]

I think the biggest hint that Geeta's team isn't designed around strength, at least to a more casual player, is her Gogoat. Regardless of Gogoat's actual power level, it's hard to take seriously when used by a Champion. I don't think I initially noticed the abilities, but I sure noticed that!

[@Thraim.]

Gamefreak having different views about what Pokémon games are supposed to be compared to the player base is nothing new. Gamefreak wants to make fun games where you collect cool and cute critters. That's why they make rivals and gym leaders with thematically fitting teams. The (adult) player base wants a hardcore RPG, which is why they demand bosses with battle-optimized teams.

[@byeguyssry]

The saying goes, "Death to the author". It means that no matter what the artist (or any medium, which I would include game design under) intends, it doesn't matter; it merely matters what the audience perceives. No one thinks Geeta was meant to be a miniboss, but rather, as per all other pokemon games in the series, the strongest; you know, the champion? Especially since few pay attention to the narrative; maybe the story really did make it clear, but who plays Pokemon for the story? I also feel like if the narrative did make this clear, there would be more clear evidence for you to cite, like Nimona being more explicit in either playing down beating Geeta, or building herself up. Also, there's definitely an argument to make Glimmora first considering how it's from Area ZERO and your legendary mount comes from it... I think? IDK maybe I got the story wrong since I didn't read it. Also, being thematic is no excuse for being easy. You can have a theme and still be strong. Or at the very least, if she MUST be super easy, barely an inconvenience to beat, she could at least claim that she's going easy on you. But perhaps the most puzzling is that Geeta feels even weaker than the Elite Four... I don't know if that's just me, but it feels extremely anticlimatic to fight fights that I actually have to pay attention to (albeit... still not hard), then have an easy fight be the last. It'd be like fighting a gym trainer after a gym leader (probably why gym trainers won't challenge you after you beat the gym leader, even if it was an optional gym trainer that you skipped).

[@GoldenOwl_YouTube]

Honestly, I didn't feel that Geeta was weaker than the rest of the Elite Four except maybe Hassel (because high BST Dragons). The Paldea League was generally quite weak overall. Rika had stuff like Camerupt and Clodsire, Poppy uses Tinkaton, Larry brought a Tropius and Oricorio, and even Hassel tossed you a lowball with Flapple. Geeta was more or less in line with the rest of the group. It's generally just an awkward situation around because Geeta ends up being the first ever Champion designed to be easy. Meaning the story hype around her awkwardly clashes with the actual gameplay experience. Ludonarrative Dissonance is the closest thing to a fancy-pants term for this. In practice it ends up being more of an Elite Five, capped with the Champion Battle with Nemona.

[@zaclittlejohn2701]

I think alot of the problems with Geeta's team is that the theme of her team seems to be "weak 2 stage pokemon from this area and a kingambit randomly thrown in" rather than actually dificult pokemon from those areas. Maybe replacing Espartha with Braviary/Mandibuzz, using a spiritomb/cetitan instead of Avalug, and maybe a dragonite from Cassaroya lake instead of a veluza would help keep the themeing while making an actually decently dificult fight. I don't really have a good replacement for gogoat besides replacing it with shed tail cylizar and swapping into Glimmora early so that she terrastalized it early while keeping it as an "ace".

[@isawedu]

I agree with the idea, I just don't think they nailed the execution. Glimmora DOES make sense as her ace, but they also made the decision to have it be a hazards setter instead of a late game sweeper. They also made the decision to hype her up as this incredibly powerful trainer, talking about how she never holds back, etc, only to battle, frankly, incompetently. Feels like the narrative and design team just weren't in sync on this one, and it ended up undermining the story. I respect what they were going for, but it just doesn't really fit with the design goals in a way that feels good. I agree the best solution is to let her have a redemption battle where she reveals she was lying about going easy on you, then going all out with a properly organized and non-Gogoat having team lol

[@mikaiink]

When I saw Geeta's design for the first time, it really caught my attention- it even brought back memories to the characters I had enjoyed from Alola. The video has been great presenting Geeta's true role and it has helped me see it all from a different pov. But going back as to "how I felt back then" when I fought Paldea's "La Primera" - it felt lackluster... Overall, I still enjoy her design and personality! And this video has made me appreciate her even more.

[@joconsjariol3578]

I hope that Geeta's anime counterpart is far more better than her game counterpart because in the in Pokémon anime she can do whatever she likes to do since in the anime Geeta will might sending out her lead/ace glimmora first by dropping toxic spike's from the opponents physical moves by didn't not really notice it first early on and once the toxic spikes is finally setting up from the opponents ground she will send her glimmora back to her pokeball and saving it last in the end while the rest of her worst team will be getting buff in the anime and fight until the end then her kinggambit will be like Leon's rillaboom 2.0 and glimmora will be like ash's Pikachu 3.0 then she will be able send out glimmora last and glimmora will be faster enough to dodge and take down their Pokémon really easily thanks to early toxic spikes and a tough challenge for neither liko or roy however in her game she really needs a team makeover from other champions as well

[@gabrielfreitas3033]

Great video, as always! It's great to see someone giving an honest analysis of Pokémon's game design, as I feel like a lot of opinions have become common place and repeated endlessly nowadays. I especially love the subject of how a trainer's story and personality can be reflected on their teams. Also, if you want another hot topic for a video, maybe you could cover Flint's team from the original Sinnoh games lol

[@benjaminsurrette3034]

pointing out the fact that she’s titled “trainer” and doesn’t even view you as a rival is givin me chills

[@MechanisCaduceus]

I remember purposefully capping my levels to what I knew from previous games in terms of gym battles and the like... and this battle was still a cake-walk. That being said, I do 100% agree with you and it was rather evident at the time, especially so 20 minutes later when I fought Nemona. Then again, I also figured we'd be allowed to rematch the Elite 4 and maybe get a redemption for Geeta where she tells us that she was holding back and then has some comp team ready or something, considering they had just given Cynthia that treatment in the Gen 4 remakes... but you can't even enter the doors to the League again. She was designed for a role, but failed her secondary role for her primary role and that's what leaves players disappointed in her. To paraphrase a chart from your Cynthia video here, she sets certain expectations for herself as a 'champion' then fails to live up to them whatsoever... and doesn't even get an opportunity to be like 'you were able to beat me when I was but a test... but can you become the top champion?' or something along those lines.

[@jesusvice6664]

i like the idea that Geeta is just having fun with her pokemon team comp whilst also being the best of the best

[@ameryaser3987]

Damn. Theme overtaking gameplay. Hopefully she get's a rematch in the dlc. The theming is pretty good tho.

[@Larrybonewell]

This really shines a light on her and her why. But I don’t think it excuses the rest of how they built her up. We spent 8 generations of the E4 being the best of the best, I know 9 subverted most everything, but this was just so subtle/unexpected it didn’t stick the landing. Also they didn’t do themselves favors by having her not use the unique abilities/strategies those mons were designed for. As you said most people wouldn’t see a lot of that stuff, and so they wouldn’t have known fully what Kingambit can do or what Glimmora could set up. I do think if you could rematch her and she got that boost and actually used the tactics she should would of been great.

[@firstwaddledee9182]

I was aware of Geeta being weak on purpose so that Nemona could be a harder fight so I was hoping this video might give her something more. It kind of did with each pokèmon representing a different area but still not much. I like the idea of a team that looks intimidating but isn’t actually all that dangerous but that completely falls apart when even a casual fan can tell you what’s wrong with the team. Kingambit is very clear how to be used but can’t for balance reasons, so something like a Lowkix could work instead with it also being intimidating, a dark type, and found in the bamboo forest. And to keep Glimmora an ace without obviously being stupid you could give it its hidden ability corrosion rather than toxic debris. It can work, but it just doesn’t as it is.

[@coreymartin9630]

I think that at a minimum, all of Geeta's Pokemon should've at least been from Paldea. Swapping Gogoat for Arboliva and Avalugg for Cetitan would've probably been better for themeing than her current team, especially given that the region is an island

[@bingo36able]

I'll admit, I didn't see her team as thematic to Paldea before you pointed it out here, and that is rather interesting as an idea, an acknowledgement of all the places we have been on our journey and the wonders that still await ahead. However, I have a number of problems with this, the first of which being that it doesn't relate to Paldea at all. Geeta isn't some politician, or backpacker, or ecologist who would have a vested character reason in representing the region with her team. She's "La Primera!" The strongest trainer of Paldea! Her team should be truly awesome, a team that represents the peak of achievement as a Pokemon trainer. I think there is even a really cool way in which you could contrast this with Nemona. Give Geeta Pokemon that are very rare or difficult to evolve/use, Pokemon that have a gimmick attached to them or Pokemon that the player may respect her having achieved for how difficult they are. Give her Pokemon like Heidragon, Kingambit, Slacking, Rot, or Annihilape! Pokemon that require a certain dedication to battling and training. Then, when you beat her and face Nemona, there's a certain payoff to the fact that here the two of you are, both (presumably) with your starters, and you see the familiar Pokemon Nemona has caught and trained up through the journey. Humble Pokemon, familiar Pokemon like Pawmot that capture that spirit of going on an adventure with a cute little animal and seeing as they grow stronger along the way. The fight against Nemona should serve as a thematic cap to the Geeta fight that it isn't necessarily the Pokemon that are most rare and exotic that carry you to victory, but the team you love and the experience two friends have in seeing the other grow and being motivated to face each other at their peak as rivals.

[@quinndepatten4442]

Gambit and glimmora getting those abilities is what bothers me. They have two other abilities that would have completely prevented this misconception from happening. I actually think it's cool that she didn't lead with glimmora because it'd be so weird to see her ace get instantly murked as soon as the fight started. Also using your ace last is like pulling out all the stops. It's a desperation move which makes the fight feel a lot more interesting. Paldean mons are really busted and I think that's why it was such an easy fight. I had a palafin and a maushold on my team she didn't stand a chance. As you said in the video, she really needs a second chance with items. That gambit needs sucker punch and the glimmora needs choice scarf or specs.

[@deconyus3412]

Plotwise, Geeta in this game feels like what Lance is in RBY, the penultimate battle before your final battle with the main rival as champion. However rather than getting the title just before you, Nemona just had it all along. In Gen 2 though Lance definitely gets an upgrade so here’s to hoping Geeta can get one too?

[@ktvx.94]

The thing is, it makes 0 sense that the Top Champion is objectively weaker than "a Champion". Also the whole holding back thing. Like, it's not just her being weak, it's the fact that you can see the game is lying to your face so hard it's annoying.

[@Socioromanticism]

Fine, fine, I'm sold on seeing Geeta as being on the same tier as Not Clavell and Arven. But I think some text would have gone a long way after the battle...and even some text before the battle. For example, someone said that Geeta was so strong, she strong-armed the Elite Four to serve in their roles. Had she clarified after her battle that her strength lies in organizational abilities and leadership and not necessarily in battling, I could have been better with it. But I do agree, and hope, that she really is holding back somehow, used Glimmora as her lead, and transforms her look to a variant or evolution of Glimmora for her new ace in the DLC.

[@XeroShifter]

It makes sense from a narrative flow perspective that Geeta isn't the final boss, when I got to Nemona and she asked me to choose a fight location, it felt very natural to choose the beach by her house (which the game then spits in your face for choosing that option) and finish by going back to the beginning. The problem is that while the Narrative flow says that she isn't the final boss, the expectations set by calling her "the strongest champion" directly undermine her role as a penultimate challenge. If the game had at any point explained what it means to be champion ranked, and that despite fighting the elite four, their job the first time through wasn't to crush you, but to see if you belonged among the elite, then it would have made sense. Geeta's team and decision making would have been contextualized not under the idea of her being a skilled battler, but rather under the idea that she is the final test, and that once you pass it, you could potentially rematch for the real team. Its possible that this idea was originally intended to be in the game, but was cut later. We know that the game was wildly unfinished, and you can see it everywhere from the sandwiches to the textures, and the lack of optimization. Its possible that she was supposed to have a rematch team, and was setting up the idea of "Champion Ranked" the whole game to lead into that. This is the first game to mention "Champion Ranked" and address the strength of post-game trainers in any form. The only thing that flies in the face of this concept is that she is said to never hold back, which is only mentioned a few times and would have been an easy fix. I think it would have been really cool to instead paint her as a refined person in general, but an absolutely nuts battle junky when she isn't forced to hold back for league reasons. It would have been a really cool moment, and character reveal if during the first fight she kept her composure, but on rematch she dropped her posture when you eliminated her first pokemon, and got more excited and disheveled looking the worse her position in the fight got, looking more unhinged as she felt more and more free to unleash. It wouldn't be the Geeta we have now, but that's kinda the point in a way. This version of Geeta also could have still helped contextualize Nemona. If Geeta had been absurdly strong when allowed to let loose, then Nemona's motivation for training you wouldn't have to change much, because if Geeta stopped battling her because she wasn't growing, and Geeta had beaten her more than a dozen times, then training you still makes sense because she would struggle to find a person strong enough to help her grow, but not so strong that she had no hope of winning. This also would have allowed Penny's team to exist without undermining Nemona's own story, because Penny's team is actually higher level than Nemona's, with Nemona's teams maxing out at 66, and Penny's weakest team member being at level 69. I'm in no way saying that Gamefreak had anything planned out in the way I've put here, merely that they do some set-up that could have been intended to set up Geeta having a rematch with a different team, and being a stronger trainer than she is, and that the game was unfinished. I just got excited expanding on the idea was all.

[@malareon]

Glimorea reping area zero was always kind of a stretch to me sense u can find it's pre evolution in certain caves in the paldea main game. I think gholdengo is more thematically appropriate sense you find gimigoul throught the entire reigon but the process of getting a gholdingo on your playthrough team is so absurd that very few players would be willing to do it. Gholdengo would represent the more exploritory and open world setting of the game. Gholdingo also represents the treasure hunt that the game has been hinting at and the player has yet to truly find out much about.

[@winterdragon2004]

There are two things i found of note regarding Geeta narratively speaking. 1. Since as early as your very first battle, the game introduces the concept of "Champion rank trainers" implying from the get go that the League is easier/ lower stakes then it is in other regions. This is meant to be something for students to try and challenge themselves, rather than some grand endeavor that the entire region will celebrate. On that front i believe Geeta is at an appropriate power level. 2. If you think about it, this is kinda like a modern redux of the famous encounter with Blue. Back then you struggled through the Elite 4 and finally bested the strongest trainer of the region Lance (and his oh so original team of 3 Dragonites) only to be confronted by your rival for the true final encounter. Its the same here, with Geeta acting as the stand in for Lance.

[@Devil935]

The tale of Genji reference is probably the best way to describe our relationship with her lol

[@rrteppo]

That works for the FIRST time we fight Geeta but her team is ordered that way forever. Any other time you fight her she uses her pokemon in the same order, making her basically a filler fight, when she could be interesting.

[@inspectorspinda]

oh wow! i still dont like her but now i appreciate the reasons behind some of her design elements. thank you < 3

[@davifelizardo4187]

My opinion exactly 😅

[@richardkenan2891]

I never really felt like Geeta was a disappointment. Mostly because, as you said, I was out to face Nemona, the fight that had been hyped up from the start. If Geeta needed anything, it would be a redesign of Glimmora so it wouldn't have an almost completely useless gimmick. Or just give it its hidden ability Corrosion, that would be good enough to counter the whole wrong order thing. Kingambit is a much more forgivable decision - I have never seen it come out before 5th in her roster, and if Kingambit isn't strong enough after you've KO'd 4 of its teammates, it's probably not going to be strong enough after 5. It's also really hard to make a battle in Pokemon legitimately challenging. You can make it frustrating to prepare for by setting the levels high enough that it takes forever to level your team up to be ready to challenge them, but I don't think there's ever been a Pokemon battle you couldn't overcome with the simple brute force approach of grinding. As long as you know the extreme basics - bring in a pokemon that can deal super-effective damage without taking super-effective damage - you're going to win as long as your levels are even remotely appropriate. And the various X items mean that appropriate levels are honestly optional as well. And NPC trainers have some inherent limitations in how they battle that means even well programmed battle AI work at a disadvantage.

[@He110goodmorning]

I agree with you that Geeta is a well designed faux final boss. I think you hit the nail on the head that her team, if any changes were to be made, should reflect the journey that the players have gone on representing all 6 main areas of the mainland. Therefore, I think two swapouts in Gogoat for Toedscruel and in Avalugg for Beartic would help make Geeta's team on paper look more imposing. The problem with Gogoat is that it is both an early and common pokemon to find. Toedscool can be found in most of the same south and east province areas like Skiddo, but is a little rarer and impressive on paper. As for Beartic, I think it evokes the same imagery of Glasedo Mountain just as a more traditionally upright triangle and is more imposing as I've mentioned before. Another fun idea for these two swaps specifically is to utilize their abilities that players may not expect. Toadscruel has mostly attacking moves, but then somehow moves quite slower than the player when using a status move or Beartic setting up a rain dance, possibly to make players think "Oh it just wants to take reduced fire damage", only to now be much faster than players expected next turn. Final note is that I like Geeta's personality. She is a serious woman, so I think even lying about the level of effort she puts into battling is possible for her character to contrast against Nemona who seems to do so slightly more begrudgingly

[@redjirachi1]

You dislike Geeta for being a bad companion I dislike Geeta for being mean to Larry We are not the same

[@chubibi06]

Even if i can get around the reasoning behind her design, i just think it was a waste to not actually make good use of her under leveled team. As for the Pokemon League, each should've had their own decorated room to bring out more their personality ; or even in Larry's case, be a joke on how everyone's wanting for him to take a vacation

[@000Dragon50000]

The FEAR deep in my soul upon even the slight hint of Cynthia's Unova encounter...

[@AdolfSmeargle]

Even if Geeta wasn’t designed to be strong Geeta should be designed to make the player think that she is strong. Personally I feel like Gholdengo would have been a good ace because it was an unknown Pokémon to most players and it deals big damage with Make it Rain. Make it Rain also lowers special attack though so after Gholdengo throws out enough Make it Rains the player should be able to survive the hit and kill it while still feeling accomplished. Glimmora should have been the surprise Spiritomb of her team.

[@analyticofexistance7847]

I know how to fix Geeta. Read below to find how I'd do it. I'd make it that Geeta succeded the previous Paldea champion by saving professor's research team from Paradox Pokémon during the Area 0 expedition. However, she was unable to save the previous champion, so she grew bitter and started using her Glimmora, the very creature who killed her mentor, as punishment for it's sin. Everyone who challenged her would get brutally beat down with her ace alone until she was finally banished by the Pokèmon League from her position. Following this, Geeta was at a loss. For once, she didn't have a goal. She wondered Paldea aimlessly. As she continued on, she saw people and Pokèmon living harmoniously. She would spend ages every day, wondering why the Glimmora she imprisoned was so unlike other Pokèmon. She made her choice. Geeta travelled Paldea with purpose once again. One by one she travelled the various landscapes seeking out the Pokemon that she needed. An Espathra near the academy in the south, a Gogoat from the grassy fields to the west, an Avalugg from the mountains in the north, and a Valusa from the seas east. Them, combined with Kingambit who trained with her when her master was still alive, circled together. With a flick of her wrist, Geeta let Glimmora loose in the middle of all her other Pokemon. Glimmora saw the situation and scattered toxic debris everywhere allowing it to escape. Geeta and her team chased Glimmora across Paldea, her sending out each one in their prefered environment until they finally reached Area 0. There, Glimmora terastilised in a bright and beautiful light. Glimmora seemed much calmer than before, but was also frighteningly stronger. Geeta tried with all her might, but her Pokèmon fell one after the other until only Kingambit remained. It was only through this Pokèmon's efforts that Geeta finally overcame Glimmora. After the battle, Glimmora was more tame, but only as long as it was terastilised often enough to release it's increadible power. Geeta along her journey learned the beauty in even destruction. Yeah, this story isn't very good, but the main idea of it is Geeta has a character arc that began in Area 0 and ended with her caring more for Paldea and lead her to value her roots. This also give her a reason to open her fights with her ace Glimmora and end with her old friend Kingambit.

[@ChaosX15]

Others have said it but i feel like they should have framed her champion fight as a test not all out would have fixed a lot. The theme and power of her team make sense as a test but she goes out of her way to say she's not able to hold back at all. They even set up the ace battles at the end where i feel like it would have been cool if they made her "champion" ace her lead on the team then on of the paradox forms being her true ace. all and all I really feel like one line really hurt her characterization

[@lasercraft32]

The fight would instantly be a lot more threatening if she led with her toxic spikes ability Pokemon, and ended with the final gambit that gets stronger the more Pokemon she loses.

[@ITYW]

I disagree, it’s still a really bad look to introduce two new pokemon with mechanics related to sequencing a team (which is so rarely touched on by Pokemon) and then to completely dismiss those mechanics. If her role is to be mainly a storypiece and less of a battle, then it still stands as unwise and a poor choice to choose team members with such battle specific mechanics. There’s plenty of other choices from each zone that could’ve substituted in for the mishandled mons and still have accomplished this goal of thematically representing your journey. I do agree that maybe they should’ve given her the Alder treatment to let Nemona shine, but saying that “she’s bad on purpose which makes her well designed!!” Isn’t a strong argument. Intent does not equal execution

[@ITYW]

That’s not to dunk on the quality of your video btw- still a well made little take!! I just happen to disagree. For a game that is often maligned for difficulty-wise being a “Press A” simulator, having what is effectively and thematically a progress check getting 6-0’d by the very first mon your handed in like 2/3 cases is antithetical to this suggestion of showcasing how far you’ve come. It’s also not subversive to do a fakeout champion battle; RBG & BW1 are both better takes on that idea. It’s not subversive or different for a champion to be easy; that’s a common complaint for a lot of fans, and in my opinion, only emboldens Geeta’s claim to fastest to the bottom of the barrel of any champion not in a Let’s Go title

[@Kuchito08]

I actually forgot Geeta is the champion at the end of the league. My memory gaslit me into remembering Nemona as the champion you fight at the end of the E4. then again I was sick with covid when I played Scarlet, so that's prolly affecting my memory.

[@intergalactic92]

This is funny because I'm certain that is what you're supposed to think.

[@derrickmehok9465]

Ive always thought of her as a final exam. Imagine your character showing up for a champions class. Nemona is there. Possibly a dozen or so others. The test is held by la primera herself. Several of the questions are basic stuff, what type is Glimmora, etc. Then you start getting questions like "which of her pokemon should have been the first/last she used" and stuff that would lead you to believe she intentionally has been using her team wrong from the start. After the exam you face her real team. Glimmora the first out, Kingambit the last. A Baxcalibur in there somewhere. Basically ends up being a cynthia level boss fight.

[@johngrace1312]

So… this is a fun take, and it makes sense, but my biggest issue is, frankly… if Glimora is supposed to represent Area Zero, then why can I catch its pre-evolution as early as I can catch level 30+ Pokémon. I myself, had a Glimora going into Greta’s fight, that I raised from a Glimett that was caught in Alfornada Cave. It’s true that Wild Glimora only spawn in Area Zero, but if it’s supposed to be a unique Pokémon that represents that area, then why can I find it’s pre-Evo in basically every large cave in the region? My second nitpick is that compared to her contemporary fights, Arven and Penny, she should realistically be the hardest, but Arven takes that mantle by a long shot, with more threatening Pokémon and a better AI. A lot of people have also pointed out the luto-narrative dissonance of Geeta being a strong enough trainer to be called “the best” or “one of the best” and the idea that anyone with a very mild understanding of basic game mechanics can completely sweep her with no losses. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that someone as hyped up in the story as Geeta should be one of the player’s biggest obstacles. And I don’t even think the idea of changing the actual Pokémon on her team is even necessary for it to be a difficult fight, just a better AI that isn’t hard-coded to send out the “Ace” as the final Pokémon

[@Crowdragon225]

While I can appreciate the theming and personality, there still needs to be an air of challenge. Proper movesets, items, synergy in how they are sent out. Greta could easily send glimmora out first and use a low priority switch move after its ability activates. Then she waits to resend it out until the end.

[@MercuryA2000]

I get that she's not the final boss, but the issue is just how much the game hypes her up. She's La Primera, the top champion. Everyone talks about how impressive she is, how skilled of a battler. Then she starts it by saying "I'm incapable of holding back." and sets herself up to be so competent, so dangerous. Only to be an idiot. Like, I wouldn't have any issues with her if it wasn't for that one line. If she hadn't talked such a big game. If she'd treated this like it was an examination and been clinical about testing you rather than trying. And honestly: Even if it wouldn't have been as thematic, I think just changing her order so she starts with her terra steel/water glimmora ace would at least give her the illusion of not holding back. Starting with her ace pokemon would be something unique to just her, and would certainly up the tempo of the fight. Steel and water are great defensive types, and would hopefully give her at least the two turns of spikes.

[@doorto6152]

Perhaps the simplest, most effective way to change player’s reception to Geeta isn’t to change her team, but to foreshadow the expectation that the elite four aren’t filling the same role as the other 8 incarnations. In other words, a line in the early game of Nemona saying, “the bar for champion is set lower in paldea compared to other regions because instead of having a singular champion, it is a rank to distinguish passing a test.” Like qualifying for world competition by winning enough points in regional events. Frame the champion rank like a qualification to enter a tournament to determine the *best* champion. This particular reason, in turn, makes Geeta’s theming of representing the biomes make more sense. They’re checks to see if you can beat the pokemon from said regions. Ideally, they’d be the strongest pokemon from said regions, but what she has now is good enough. Though her dialogue *must* be rewritten for this. Just telegraph the elite four and champion aren’t going to be as strong as usual, and then there won’t be any expectations for Geeta to fail. Edit: shower thought, we can use glimmora’s anchor position as a transition to area 0 more effectively. Statistically, glimmora is one of the weakest area 0 exclusive pokemon, particularly the paradox. Imagine what it says if Geeta’s most powerful pokemon is area 0’s weakest. If glimmora is set as the point position for area 0’s difficult area, that gives the game a chance to show off glimmora’s signature ability. Said ability could also be framed as a foreshadowing of how dangerous area 0 is. As glimmora makes the battlefield itself deadly. So have a horde of glimmora attack the player before they encounter any paradox pokemon too. In summary, more clearly communicate the elite four will be weaker; rewrite geeta’s dialogue to be a final exam test instead of a hard opponent; then use glimmora as a transition to area 0 by making it both geeta’s strongest and area 0’s weakest pokemon.

[@Mepphy99]

the Only thing that changed in my idea about geeta is that kingambit being her ace and last Pokémon shouldn't be a thing mainly because that thing gave me trauma from OU play

[@melonman6522]

It mostly lines up but Glimmora is a poor choice to be the "Never before seen" pokemon of Area 0, by that point in the game you could have had a glimmora yourself for quite some time by evolving a glimmet from that cave in the southwest. I'm not disagreeing that was their intention, but it was just poorly implemented

[@0744401]

"Before you complain, remember : video games are designed to be won". Is my combined takeaway from having watched this and the elite 4 video.

[@Zek3nator]

I feel like this argument would be more obvious if Nemona used a different team for her final battle.

[@philkirshenbaum8867]

Oh my gosh! A KZbinr selected my idea! Now that I’ve actually watched the video, I never really thought about the Narrative of the game, partially because of how jumbled the open world caused it to be. Looking at your explanation, her team is a lot neater than I expected. I think giving her a potential rematch would have been a great change as you said. I really like Greta’s design and was a bit bummed that her battle wasn’t much of a test, your explanation made a lot of sense. Thank you.

[@shinigamimiroku3723]

Generally, I agree with your observations, but I would like to point out something I found interesting. In each game (sans Johto, which is weird as heck due to being a direct sequel to RBY), you fight 4 characters before fighting a Champion. The player has been conditioned for decades at this point to expect that same pattern. As a result, whether GF intended Geeta to be a semi-final boss instead of an actual final boss, we as players are conditioned like Pavlov's dogs to expect Geeta to be a difficult fight. As far as making Geeta more difficult without changing much, all you'd need to do is lead with Glimmora. Not only are you not expecting to see a Pokémon you've never seen before (something that happened with Cynthia's Spiritomb) which will put you on edge, but will also force you to figure out some way to play around the Toxic Spikes (I had Forretress, so I wasn't really worried about it, but I guarantee most people would never think to take a Spike-Spinner with them to an in-game fight). No need to swap out Pokémon or even moves, just send the funky Area Zero alien out and let the chaos reign. More difficult, but also not more difficult than her storyline contemporaries.

[@Maki_Moon]

So the real game design mistakes were making Glimmora's ability Toxic Debris instead of some equivalent to Supreme Overlord, and giving her Kingambit instead of another fitting Pokémon from that area of the game. The theme of her team is cool, but they should have made a functional team for a boss fight instead of something that leaves players thinking "How the hell did you even get this job?". It's ok for a boss fight to not be too hard, but it's pathetic that she fails at executing her own strategy.

[@journeyingjay3458]

I absolutely get that people think she’s weak, but I’ve been playing for years, including almost every game, and I lost three times. I think my team was just uniquely bad against her team, I had nothing to handle Glimmora, which I had never seen before and didn’t know the typing of. I think in a blind playthrough, she can hurt you, but if you already know the makeup of her team and the typings of her Pokemon, she’s easy.

[@zeroderorero3948]

The thing with the comunity about Geets is, it's more profitable sharing a negative opinion than a positive the same with S/V in general: everyone talks about the bugs, glitches and how rushed it was (which, fair tbh) but no one, I mean NO ONE, talks about the new pokemon they like or their opinion on the story (unless they say its bad somehow)

[@aname4390]

I don't think she even fufilled the role of decoy final boss very well considering we knew early on that we would be fighting Nemona as a Champion. Geeta was never a goal to surpass, and therefore not focused on and doesn't fufill the decoy boss role well at all.

[@tysondennis1016]

Here's how I'd improve her team: Glimmora (lead) -Ability: Toxic Debris -Item: Focus Sash -Moves: Stealth Rock, Power Gem, Sludge Wave, Energy Ball Arboliva -Ability: Harvest -Item: Sitrus Berry -Moves: Ingrain, Giga Drain, Hyper Voice, Protect Espathra -Ability: Speed Boost -Item: Twisted Spoon -Moves: Protect, Calm Mind, Dazzling Gleam, Stored Power Dondozo -Ability: Unaware -Item: Leftovers -Moves: Rest, Sleep Talk, Earthquake, Wave Crash Cetitan -Ability: Slush Rush -Item: Icy Rock -Moves: Snowscape, Ice Spinner, Earthquake, Aqua Tail Kingambit (ace) -Ability: Supreme Overlord -Item: Quick Claw -Tera Type: Dark -Moves: Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, Kowtow Cleave, Iron Head

[@evanpereira3555]

4 month late but it seems none in the comments thougth about this. While Geeta isn't the final boss and just a stepping stone, it isn't imo sufficient to make her fight this easy, because the fake final boss was already done better in an older Pokemon game. In Black and White, N beats the Champion just before us then we had to defeat him in his castle, but plot-twist it's actually Ghetis the real final boss. Nevertheless the fight against N, hype like the one against Geeta, wasn't undertone by it. In contrary N even starts with the legendary and he uses, like every Champion, uncommon Pokemon, both fossils and Zoroark (which if I recall wasn't seen before so a double surprise with his ability). And Ghetis team just after is still great (better than the one of Nemona imo but it's off topic). And yes Geeta should be compare directly to N but rather Unova's Elite 4, since there's more distance between Nemona than to Ghetis, but still Geeta is easier than her own Elite 4 and because of the ability we directly know soemthing's off. So even if this was really intentional, make Geeta weak was still a bad decision because instead of elevating further the true final one it's just downplay the whole League. The worst is it didn't need a lot of change (her team while some Pokemon are weak is overall good), just change Kingambit and Glimmora's abilities and the fight is ten times better (Toxic Debris on her last Pokemon... just why... (and if it's because Corrosion was hidden well they could add an useless third ability)). Actually leading with her ace and directly Terra-Rock Glimmora (with Toxic Debris or not) could have been a really good first impression and her difficulty wouldn't an issue (because in the end Pokemon is easy, but it still needs to make us feel challenge).

[@SteveScapesYT]

They could have fixed all of this by just changing her dialogue to make it seem like she was holding back even at the league finale, and then giving her a redemption battle at the final All School Tournament… which climaxes with Geeta and NOT Nemona as is. And it would work thematically following the 2nd gym run where they also don’t hold back.

[@afish2281]

You mean a 3rd chance in the DLC. Geeta has a rematch fight in the post game (base game) and is barely changed aside from maybe some leveling up.

[@themrme4031]

I choose to believe Paldea is just less invested in sports than the other regions. That's why professional gym leaders need fulltime jobs to get by.

[@cherry_grove]

I understand your points, and I appreciate that her team is diverse in representing the different areas of Paldea. But I would argue that the existence of both Nemona & AI Sada/Turo was irrelevant. Just because harder fights were destined to come didn't mean Geeta couldn't be a challenge too. It would have been a lot more fun if Geeta's team order was changed to make use of their abilities, and Avalugg & Veluza were swapped out for better choices of their same types (maybe Cetitan & Kingdra, as an example). Her Kingambit & Glimmora could also have used a level increase or two. Anyway, the video was much appreciated!

[@lionheartedlux]

My issue is the hype around her in universe. That she was never able to hold back, that she is super strong and only Nemona has ever been able to beat her! But then she isnt hard at all and you think its all smoke.

[@mattf315]

I think this is really insightful and makes me feel better about Getta's performance and Glimora coming out last. The only changes I would make are arboliva for gogoat and have kingambit come out 2nd to last. The area bisharp can be found is pretty late game, I dont think there's a reason he couldn't have come out 2nd to last. Also, the academy ace tournament is post game right? Why not upgarse her team for that?

[@atumegaenter9139]

what if we let Geeta have 2 Glimoras, one lead with the toxic debris and the second be the ace with tera poison venoshock.

[@jalencurtis7222]

Wow, you completely changed my view of Geeta. Understanding the game design aspects, makes me think she was actually appropriate. Disregarding difficulty, i feel there was a lack of delivery on accomplishing her role as penultimate boss. The package itself is fine.

[@alzar777]

You changed mine! I actually like her now