Game of Clones

[@JustWrite]

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[@YouFightLikeACow]

Goddamn it you got me. My first thought was he's back from the dead, he pulled a Jon Snow Season 6 on us.

[@keyboardevangelist]

I would love if you analyse the writing of Succession...

[@IcefisherTenacity]

That’s a shame to spend all that time on this.

[@pressy-fb1hs]

Finally it's been so long I subbed after your pirates video wanting to watch a new video when it came out oh how long the wait

[@NormanFinkelstein9863]

Harold Bloom must of taken a whole afternoon to read. And then there's the editing process, which seems to be jump cutting each sentence like a Godard film. I enjoyed it but I don't understand why people such as yourself expect an income for what is essentially commenting over the top of popular culture. You must make 'something' from the channel, t s or else you wouldn't still be here, so why expect more from essentially passive viewers of generic stories?

[@milk.mir.]

"J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is, in fact, standing on Mt. Fuji." - Terry Pratchett

[@princessthyemis]

that's brilliant

[@xan42O]

stop crediting bigots for anything. he didnt invent shit, just took real folklore and mythology and put it in a book. "fantasy" meaning generic medieval europe specifically

[@heitoroliveira5166]

man this is awesome

[@dirrdevil]

​@@xan42OWhat a weird response. Someone can be both a bigot and highly influential. The quote doesn't even say that the influence of Tolkein is good or bad, just that it's there.

[@henrikg1388]

@@xan42O Tolkien was European, you know. Did you expect him to have written something inspired from the Mahabharata?

[@Alexander-kc8oq]

It´s pretty funny that Martin wrote A Song of Ice and Fire as an intentional diversion from Tolkien because he was sick of all the Tolkien clones and didnt want to be like them - only for future writers in two industries to completly ignore that and clone his work. And like wtith Tolkien clones, the Martin clones ended up not understanding what made the orginal work so good. And now we have a show that is trying to be both Game of Thrones and Lord of The Rings at the same time, and fails at both. Maybe not so funny after all...

[@comradetrashpanda8777]

Capitalism strikes again!

[@sharendavis9216]

@@comradetrashpanda8777it’s not capitalism, it’s stupidity

[@Alexander-kc8oq]

@@sharendavis9216 Those are not mutually exclusive

[@aedrianys]

I love this community. Actually smart people

[@cameraman502]

I'm not sure ASOIAF can be called a success either. I think the cynicism he uses to contrast with Tolkien heroic trope will prevent him from resolving the story in cathartic manner or force him to betray that cynical realism he has made the series to be. Who knows, maybe he will stick the landing

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

"HBO does not own the concept of maps." Not for lack of trying, I'm sure.

[@alanpennie]

@@cheezemonkeyeater "You can traverse the map in any order you like but you have to visit everyone part of it" (Diana Wynne Jones).

[@neilhannan7525]

I feel bad for Witcher fans because the show writers want a game of thrones success show they Ignored books of lore and intrested story arcs that do their own thing 😢

[@saraa.4295]

Yeah, it was a pity..they had a great cast and great potential..but honestly i feel thats a bit the story of movies and series: once there is a behemoth, nothing else will bloom as long as the shadow lingers.. How long did it take for a truly great fantasy movie after LOTR?

[@aruak321]

It's why Henry Cavill left the show. He is a big Witcher fan and could no longer stomach the appalling direction that the show runners took the show in.

[@kjellduteweert9262]

Well, those writers couldn't write Got.

[@NocKme]

Which series latly haven't done that?

[@andygoody2599]

We feel bad as well. Both book and game fans of Witcher got betrayed. They wanted to write a unique show but steal brand recognition from an already successful property. Sad.

[@ToastaToast]

"Game of Clones" was right there!

[@AntiCitizenX]

I was just about to make this exact same gripe!: D

[@jcampos002]

There was already a Bruce Lee doc with that title. Sorry.

[@Bliss467]

I’m sure he really wanted to, but also really wanted the algorithm to recognize the topic

[@kyynis]

Game of Game of Thrones Clones

[@JamieChambers]

Attack of the Thrones Clones

[@EStensland88]

Reminds me of after the Avengers how everyone wanted a Cinematic Universe and forgot how it took a bunch of solo movies to build the world...and just started with Batman v Superman

[@AirLancer]

"Eh just have Wonder Woman watch a bunch of Quicktime videos that are also labelled with the heroes' logos, good enough. No need to organically set up anything, we don't have time for that!" The hard part to believe is that if you look up that scene on KZbin, there are people in the comments who are actually like "I got chills when this scene came on."

[@tariqthomas9090]

Not just solo movies. It took decent-to-good solo movies AND a good Avengers film. Also people forget that there had never been anything like Avengers before its release. It was extremely difficult to pull off.

[@realidadficcion9378]

and even now the mcu is shadow of its former self

[@clementj]

​@@AirLancer the same way some Rings of Power fans said Sauron's deception should be psychologically studied LOL... I think it's their psychology that should be studied...😂

[@krumbergify]

@@realidadficcion9378Don’t forget how they took the short book “The Hobbit” and turned it into three long movies. The Hobbit movies sure look like the The Lord of The Rings movies, but they are nothing like them. They are empty bottles without any soul.

[@dlakodlak]

One thing is clear to me. No matter if you're going for naive fantasy epic, or incredibly complex political drama, you simply can't speedrun its creation. Both Tolkien and Martin spent long years on research and creation which is why their works are so complex and cohesive though each in different ways. What these showrunners are trying to do is create something out of nothing in like 2-3 years while it needs triple that as well as immense talent to actually achieve what they want.

[@Squall17x]

1. moral ambiquity 2. Multiple characters 3. Multiple storylines 4. A major emphasis on the world politics 5. Lots of dialogue scenes 6. Sex and/or violence 7. Unexpected character deaths! Mix in a bowl and put in oven, let it cook for 60 min per episode, remove and oh no you forgot the main ingredient: identity of its own

[@nont18411]

Shogun is probably the most Game of Thrones-ish show in the past few years but it’s so full of identity. Such a unique watching experience but it’s mainly because it’s written in 1975 based on true Japanese history, 21 years before Martin even published his first book.

[@thealmightyaku-4153]

See, this list applies to Game of Thrones' success, but in many ways it is a list of exactly what Tolkien's work avoids like the plague, and why trying to make the Rings of Power to cash in of the thrones mystique was mistaken from the start, and indeed why any attempt to even approach it would be. 1. Tolkien was not above conflicting motivations, or certainly people appearing good when they're not, but his world is utterly, powerfully, morally UN-ambiguous. Leaning away from that makes the appeal of his work evaporate. 2. Tolkien's characters are all delightful - but depth and complexity aren't always there. They are more than fairytales, but characters nevertheless fulfill _narrative requirements_ - they don't merely exist for their own sake, nor to explore for their own sake like in dramas. 3. There's lots happening in Tolkien's world, but his stories only ever focus on _one_ at a time, one character, his story, or the singular story that every character ultimately is inescapably drawn up & involved in. 4. Again, there is an enormous amount of politics and intrigue in Tolkien's Legendarium - but only if you look for it, because it's almost always a backdrop, a reason for a singular character's story, or the narrative in general, to occur. Individual stories of his works occur only as parts of that. 5. Dialogue-heavy, Tolkien's works are not. Wherever there is dialogue (as one can expect for a Professor of the English language), it is _rich,_ and rewarding. But it's not "TV" dialogue. 6. Again, things completely at-odds with Tolkien's work and its spirit. His own son Christopher maligned Jackson's films for how they seemed to glorify violence - which, despite what some may think, Tolkien never did. The 'action' is often glossed over, or otherwise short. And 'titillation' is scrupulously avoided throughout Tolkien's works, and it is not harmed by that. 7. I understand, but detest, GRR Martin's take on death in Tolkien, versus his own choices. It's a bit rich for a draft-dodger to think that he can do better than a veteran of the Somme, who lost almost all his closest friends in the very war he himself fought in, in highlighting through 'unexpected deaths', at highlighting the cost of war. Boromir's death perfectly exemplifies the difference in approaches: neither unpredictable, nor sudden, and it is the only real death for the Fellowship - yet who can question its impact for the narrative? Its meaningfulness? All I'm saying is that the Rings of Power was a mistake and a missed opportunity that completely missed the mark because it fundamentally didn't understand the style & purpose of Tolkien. A Thrones-like 'fantasy action-drama' is the completely wrong tack to take adapting his works.

[@noahfarr0254]

I would even add to your #5 QUALITY dialogue that felt real and drew you in. I still to this day get chills from Tyrion and Tywin confrontation in the throne room from the delivery of AMAZING written lines.

[@nickygian]

@@thealmightyaku-4153I think GRRM said his problem with death in Tolkien was not Boromir but Gandalf who was reborn practically the same but more powerful. I think he said he really enjoyed Boromir as a character.

[@dlm9090]

Are you suggesting that ASoIaF lacks it's own identity? Come on maaaaan

[@jajssblue]

I think the biggest misstep is not recognizing the feel of these other works as independent. LOTR shouldn't really feel like GoT. They largely focus on completely different themes within fantasy.

[@vee1766]

Why the fuck not ?

[@jajssblue]

@@vee1766 Why?

[@vee1766]

@@jajssblue No it's for you to justify why not. If they want to write some stories set in the LOTR world but a bit darker and grittier they can do whatever the fuck they want and i don't see why not ? There's no rule that says it can't be that way. Y'all clearly didn't read "The Children Of Hurin" or "Beren and Luthien" by Tolkien and it shows, the world of The LOTR isn't just "heroes goes vanquish the villains and save the world"... Criticizing the quality of the writing i understand, ROP is poorly written, but this whole BS about how LOTR shouldn't be gritty and dark is just stupid.

[@jajssblue]

@@vee1766 I never said it couldn't be gritty and dark. Just that it's different from GoT and shouldn't be forced to be GoT. Sounds like you are boxing shadows. How about you go throw meaningless punches somewhere else?

[@arttukirjavainen1119]

@@vee1766 Okay, anything can work when written well but you have to agree that game of thrones like depiction of "Peppa pig" would just be fighting uphill creatively when the original material doesnt lend itself to that type of a story. At that point why not just make something new instead of relying on existing product you dont seem to even like at its core. Its probably possible to make a grim and morally grey Tolkien story thats good... Too bad no one has managed that yet, almost as if the source material is not that suited for it.

[@dragonhead99]

Wow. Bucky Barnes look different without his beard.

[@devonmmi]

THAT'S WHO HE WAS REMINDING ME OF

[@ThePawcios]

As a Polish I will never recover from what they have done with the Witcher series.... The short stories are perfect scripts for one episode each.. profound, phylisopical, grey moraly yet entertaining...

[@petrfedor1851]

Obviously they looked at polish history a tought there ain't enough tragedies yet

[@Scarfhead]

@@tomigun5180 Explain to me what made the stories in "the last wish" a "far-left monstrosity." And isn't the whole point of the Witcher franchise that being monstrous doesn't make one evil? "That sword is for monsters" and all that?

[@MaMastoast]

@@Scarfhead Which, to be fair, is a pretty left wing message.. Compassion and all that. Doesnt make the stories monstrosities though

[@Scarfhead]

@@MaMastoast I wouldn't necessarily agree that compassion is left-wing, at least in my background of a largely Catholic world. Tolkien was in many ways a very conservative fellow by our non-Victorian standards, but he wrote of compassion and mercy as the tools that mortals should use if possible, and to leave judgement to providence, at least in the example of Gollum. Granted, he was also sometimes refreshingly progressive for a Victorian-born author. For examples, he disfavored Appartheid and opposed Hitler and seemed at least capable of amicability with his queer university colleagues (though frankly if Lovecraft could have gay friends, so could anyone).

[@ThePawcios]

@@MaMastoast Is it? Where do you see there left-winged messege? Geralt is traditional archetype of positive masculinity :P

[@grfrjiglstan]

Game of Thrones was killed off by someone’s poor choice, and the rest of Hollywood has spent the past five years unable to process its death, throwing out unworthy successor after unworthy successor to cope. Life imitates art imitates life.

[@earnthis1]

"Hollywood" ? You mean Amazon? is Amazon Hollywood now? How about Sony pictures which is a Japanese business. Is that Hollywood? The short hand use of the word shows a generalization of an industry that seems childlike. Content is coming form EVERYWHERE now.

[@Asheriancommand]

The problem is no one wants another game of thrones. In peoples actual lives, they want more things like Ted Lasso, Arcane, Castlevania, Severance, interesting stories that aren't just a copy of sopranos. Its a very boring subject, and why I hate most modern fantasy shows. The things that are good are the ones that are different than their competitors.

[@hariman7727]

It was killed by Martin not writing the books.

[@nont18411]

@@hariman7727 Yep, Martin set himself up for failures

[@benb3928]

​@@earnthis1 no reason to get hung-up on his generalization and miss addressing his actual mistake - "Hollywood" isn't hung up on the poor ending. "Hollywood" doesn't give two shits how the show ended, only the audience does. "Hollywood" is hung up on how a very complicated serialized fantasy story adaptation became a blockbuster show - and "Hollywood" wants to crack that formula to make a bunch more financially successful shows to supplement their "safe bet" sequel, prequel, re-hash-quel shlock.

[@YourBlackLocal]

They don't seem to grasp what made GoT special was the consequences of character's actions.

[@thewatcher4552]

Also the outstanding cast!

[@jarjared3522]

The fact it was the only thing like it on television also made it special. The majority of its audience didn't like fantasy. You could say Game of Thrones was fantasy for people who hated fantasy.

[@090giver090]

Or they are trying to inject what worked in GoT into something that *isn't GoT* so hard, they destroy anything that made respective titles special.

[@r.vorhansen7076]

​@@thewatcher4552yes outstanding cast, still couldn't save the later seasons😢 writing is key

[@anahita7459]

To be fair, neither did GoT after season 4

[@Krlytz]

I think this is like the difference between passing an exam because you studied and passing because you copied your classmate. Because it doesn't matter if you write the "right" answers, if you don't understand how you got there in the first place then the moment someone takes a closer look at your work you will fail anyways.

[@RoseBaggins]

Basically

[@tnttiger3079]

I think Tolkien is actually a great straightforward example of the sixth category- so many these days read Beowulf or the Eddas and think, 'Holy hell! This is just like Tolkien!'- he has transcended his inspirations

[@TheFeralFerret]

It's not like Tolkien ever hid his influences either, he was deliberately trying to create a legendarium/mythology heavily inspired by pre-Norman conquest stories and myths.

[@peterg9729]

So many these days read beowulf? Hardly any and most of them will be reading the Tolkien translation.

[@anthonyzinos8656]

@@peterg9729 In my experience it is the Seamus Heaney translation that is usually read in schools and universities, which is where most will read Beowulf. If not Heaney, perhaps Liuzza. Tolkien's translation I have never seen assigned as coursework.

[@colonel__klink7548]

One of the saddest thing about the game of thornsification of Avatar is that it's a corruption of what Avatar the Last Airbender really was.... A discussion on how to be a man (and well how to be an adult in general.) Iroh standing in contrast to Ozai with the main characters each struggling with their own personal failings and challenges reaching adulthood. Zuko being the most clear example, trying to emulate Ozai and make him happy only brought him pain and sorrow which is why Iroh turned his back on all of it. Ang being the opposite problem of fear of confrontation and the lack of discipline to maintain focus (which is why he lost his first fire bending teacher.)

[@theomnitorium7476]

The new Avatar show also shows how misguided the notion of a "more mature take" is. The cartoon show is way more mature in how it portraits human relationships and personal struggles and growth. The live action show with all its blunt action and surface level politics feels way more childish by comparison.

[@LDFrost117]

I really get the strong impression that... people are also just over the need of another GOT to come in an "fill the void", it really seems most have moved on and would rather get something new rather than the hundredth GOT clone

[@Bustermachine]

Pretty much. Personally I think it's perfectly fine for GoT to be a 'one and done thing'. The problem is that it raised the bar not only in the scope of story that can be told in prestige fantasy TV . . . It raised the budgets. And the only way you can afford this insanely glammed up sets and special effects is if you're a flagship show which means pulling in GoT viewership numbers.

[@theomnitorium7476]

Here is an observation I made with season 1 of GoT: In the early episodes, every time they cut from one scene to the next, the previous scene ends with the characters talking about something related to the next scene, even if the scenes are as far apart as Westereos and Essos. It's a HUGE part of why a mass audience was not only able to follow what was going on so well, but also care about it. Along with the map in the intro, I think this is the biggest reason why you never felt lost among all the different storylines. They stopped doing that in later episodes, because it wasn't necessary anymore (and because it's obviously really difficult to do), but it was so important for the beginning. Shows like The Witcher or Rings of Power never bothered with this. They think they can simply cut between completely unrelated plotlines and it's fine.

[@alanpennie]

That's really good TV story telling. D&D were damn before they burned themselves out.

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

William Goldman (Princess Bride, Butch Cassidy etc) used to talk about the fear and shame within Studios of being the person who passed on a project that was huge. Executive care more about "not passing on a hit" than about actually having successes. We can see this effect in the current landscape: Wheel of Time and Foundation being good is secondary to "we MUST adapt this because if someone else makes money I will look like a rube".

[@Bluestlark]

that sounds interesting, do you know where to see the interviews or articles about him talking about this?

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

@@Bluestlark iirc it was one of the extensive forewords to an edition of The Princess Bride. He called that type of Executive "The Green Light Guy"

[@Amadeus451]

Ursula K Le Guin said it pretty well in The Dispossessed, "you don't make art because you want to, you make art because your soul needs to." (I read that book almost ten years ago, sorry if I'm misquoting. That's just how it stuck for me in my head.)

[@tjjordan4207]

Nothing else can be "the next Game of Thrones" because there can only be one Game of Thrones. Even Lord of the Rings and Avatar: The Last Airbender are impossible to replicate because they are the examples of the lightning in a bottle. A more recent example was the release of "The Boy & The Heron" back in December of 2023, the most likely final Hayao Miyazaki film. Within the context of the story, it is highly implied that Miyazaki is trying to tell us that no one can replace him when it comes to his filming style and creative mind because there can be only one Miyazaki. In fact, it would be unfair to force such a legacy and expectation onto someone else to continue his work, because everyone is different and has their own style. And in the world of entertainment, variety is what keeps the creativity and excitement alive. But more importantly, what I've learned from all of this is everything has a beginning, middle, and end.

[@fire23fairy]

I love this. When I first started writing in high school, everyone asked me if I was going to be the next Stephanie Meyer. I always hated that and often said, "No, I'm going to be the first me." I never really understood why people are so obsessed with being the "next" of a recent Big Thing, because everyone who tries that always gets accused of following trends.

[@kyynis]

Ah, that's a reading of "Heron" I hadn't thought of! I liked it but didn't consider it to be on the same level of his previous work. Maybe I should give it a rewatch with this perspective in mind...

[@FeebleAntelope]

What kills me about all this: Executives think that they are seeing social trends when a show hits with general audiences. * Sopranos hits and they think, "Mafia/crime dramas are in! Greenlight all the mafia/crime dramas!" * Game of Thrones hits and they think, "High fantasy is in! Greenlight all the high fantasy!" * Buffy the Vampire Slayer hits and they think, "Supernatural is in! Greenlight all the supernatural shows!" And then, while they micromanage the f++k out of clone productions, often to the detriment of their quality, plucky shows they aren't paying attention to sneak by and hit big because creatives aren''t drowning in producer notes. And then the cycle will begin anew. Late stage capitalism is exhausting. Watching studios in this environment butcher Wheel of Time and Star Wars has really sucked.

[@MCArt25]

As with anything, the general rule of "Nobody knows anything, and nobody is in control" still holds.

[@tododiaissobicho]

Executives are absolutely too smooth-brained to understand the bare minimum about what makes art good. They'll invest hundreds of thousands of dollars on AI that can make "art" instead of learning about art

[@xeno-kun983]

When a movie/tv show turns out to be a hit, executives always draw the shallowest conclusion from it, which then make their clones so mediocre. But the saddest thing about all this isn't only how stupidly superficial execs are (lord of the rings being a hit = any piece of art set in a fantasy setting gonna be a hit), but the fact that this exact problem has been a problem for so many decades now. WTF In a weird way, there has never really been "trends" in movies or tv shows. But rather just a bunch exec thinking they finally found "what works", "the perfect formula" from drawing incredibly stupid surface level conclusions from the commercial and critical success of a piece of art. This exact process has been done so many times, it's laughable at this point.

[@elderscrolls69420]

Barbie was super successful and the lesson executives took from that was…..people want movies based on toys. 🙃

[@CitizenKen01]

One are my favorite examples that shows how inept studio executives are in understanding the kinds of movies people wanted was what they did after Tim Burton‘s Batman 89 was successful. You’d think Warner Bros and other studios would double down on DC characters getting their own movies like The Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman but where does there brain go?? Silver age comics! Because Batman is technically a silver age comics character. So we got movies like the Rocketeer, Darkman, The Spirit, and Zorro. Zorro being the only one of these to have success most likely because of his similarities to Batman. Never mind Burton’s influences for his Batman films came from the more recent outings of the Bronze age of Comics with Batman’s the Killing Joke and Frank Miller’s the Dark Knight Returns. Yes Superman who is also technically a silver age comics character had an attempt in the 90s giving us that glorious picture of Nic Cage in a suit but couldn’t materialize. But did they really greenlight Superman because they thought of him as a part of DC? Warner Bros would also continue to ignore this while their animation wing was pumping out DC projects like Batman the Animated series and building that universe with Superman, Batman Beyond and the Justice League. WB completely brushing it off thinking only kids care about that! Until Marvel comes along making films that lead to the Avengers and only THEN did they finally decide to put Batman as a apart of DC and the Justice League in cenimas so they can compete! The point is, even with mixed success and or failures studio executives have always naively believed they had their finger on the pulse for what audiences wanted but in actuality they live in a Hollywood bubble.

[@MisterRobotson]

The showrunners of game of thrones, are currently in charge of the Netflix adaptation of 3 Body Problem. The book contains violence. But the violence in the book is always either very matter of fact, or it's the main characters hearing about it second hand. The show takes every opportunity to make every instance of violence as gratuitous as possible, including inventing new ones. There's a murder of a character who's not in the book, by a character who's not in the book, in a way that doesn't make sense after the mysteries are solved, but you can bet there are four milk jugs worth of blood. The episode with the boat does happen in the book, pretty much exactly, but it's like one page of the characters watching from the base. The show gives you the slaughterfest inside the boat because every show needs to have a red wedding.

[@Ranshin077]

Yet, it worked, while scarring many 😅

[@WhiteStag98]

I think you've missed the point of the boat scene here. We can all agree that the details of the boat scene are objectively horrifying, and to me the scene in the show reads as the showrunners saying, "We can't believe the book was willing to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's ok". Particularly because our perspective character in the show has an ideological argument with the military and refuses to work with them ever again following the event, whereas in the book the narrator shrugs and goes back to work. Yes, it's a slaughterfest, but it's not a gratuitous slaughterfest: it's point out how fucked up that scene is.

[@matiasdevaglia4541]

The Netflix show handles the boat scene better than the book or the chinese adaptation. It's a horrifying use of a new technology, an unforgivable perversion of something that was supposed to be used for the good of mankind. The Netflix show makes that point loud and clear in the most harrowing yet spectacular way.

[@yggdrasil2]

I haven't seen 3 Body Problem yet, but they actually made this flub with Game of Thrones. The books reputation for being violent, especially in terms of torture and s*xual violence is actually somewhat of a misconception. It's almost always conveyed through flashbacks, implications or just out of sight.

[@nickmf22]

Of all the problems with the netflix adaptation the boat scene is the last thing id add to that list, if you arent comfortable with violence either grow up or watch media thats closer to your maturity level

[@SteampunkPirates]

I swear, a few days ago I clicked on your channel like "Oh yeah, I haven't seen Just Write videos in a while, let me catch up" only to see your latest was a year ago. Now you return and bless us with this. It's like you knew or something ❤ glad to have you back

[@kiryuchansboyfriend]

The Witcher is a great example of how this sort of "subconscious trend chasing" can damage a series. I only have the video games as reference (idk if the books do this as well) but what made them so great in my eyes and set them apart from all the Tolkien/Martin reskins in the 2000s-2010s fantasy genre was their heavier emphasis on Geralt and his perspective rather than splitting the focus between a dozen or so major characters. There was also a noticeable lack of grandeur to the series that I liked; he wasn't some aristocrat or emperor but a drifter (basically a hobo) who kills over-sized vermin for a living. Sure he interacted with people of wealth and power but because of his status he also saw many others of varying races, social castes, allegiances, etc. With the Netflix show however, all that was lost. It wasn't "The Witcher" but "The Witcher and Friends." This could just be an example of video games having an advantage as a medium but tbh I don't see at all how that couldn't translate over...

[@ReissumiesSF]

Yahtzee Croshaw of Zero Punctuation once likened Geralt to a mediaeval chimney sweeper, and that has endeared me to him immensely. Geralt is very much a blue collar worker doing dangerous, unpleasant, grimy work. Yes, he's a kind of a superhuman, but not to the point that his life couldn't end on any given job assignment. He's not a grand wizard; he can influence things, but he's never going to become a central fixture of his world like Harry Potter or Aragorn.

[@hobosox]

The witcher books follow many characters, similar to the show. I started with the first 2 games before reading the book series and was surprised by how much of the books follow characters other than Geralt.

[@rabarbarum]

The Witcher books at their core are inspired by Henryk Sienkiewicz, of the Quo Vadis fame. His plots center on major historical turning points, such as persecution of early Christians in Rome, the battle of Grunwald/Tannenberg, or the 17th century wars in Poland-Lithuania. But his protagonists are always on the margins of these events. They are affected by the winds of history, they sometimes meet the real life historical figures, they even influence events in some subtle way - but they are never the major players. Their personal lives get entangled with the grand struggle, driving the narrative. The perspective is always that of someone trying to live their life amid turmoil, not one fighting for the throne. The protagonist in Quo Vadis is not Nero but Marcus Vinicius, a minor Roman noble who does not care about politics but is in love with a Christian girl. Geralt’s position is similar. He gets dragged into the conflict but he has only personal stakes in it. Even Yennefer eventually decides that fuck politics, I only care about my loved ones. And Ciri’s story ends right when Daenerys’s would begin. So, yeah. It does not translate into a GoT style narrative at all.

[@petrfedor1851]

Books do some switching of POV but it's introduced over the books and most of the time to established characters with occasional one offs. They do some nonliniar storytelling as well, first book framing device Is Geralt recovering from wounds He get from striga and reflecting on things from past And later books had characters living few centuries forward trying to figure out what happened

[@theomnitorium7476]

The later Witcher books are very much about a group of people, not jst Geralt, but you hit it on the head with the "lack of grandeur". That's exactly what it is. There are big politics going o in the world and our characters are affected by them, but they (for the most) to not take part in them. The politics are backround noise. Many characters like Geralt, Yennefer and Ciri explicitly chose to keep themselves out of the politics and don't play political games. The show completely misunderstood their sorce material by putting the politics front and center. I checked out after season 2 but I read they later made Yennefer the head of the Lodge of sorcresses, when in the books (and games) she explicity wants noting to do with it.

[@FilledCircle]

@20:30 You'll be glad to know The Wheel of Time books do not move on from this. The characters CONSTANTLY think about this necklace and their time being enslaved. Any time they see someone enslaved they get really upset. THEN, a character creates their own version of the collar and it makes them uncomfortable, even though they use it on one of the most evil characters in the show.

[@VJechev]

Yes, but it does not hinder their adventuring, even with Nynaeve, feeling the worst of it, she still phases through it as it Robert Jordan wanted to show how we go through the worst parts of our experiences but that does not need to define our actions and how we find ways to cope even if you go back constantly to that time.

[@raybod1775]

Wheel of Times show was done well and enjoyable, just don’t nitpick occasional flaws and idiotic moments.

[@TheCamster4545]

@@VJechevi disagree, I believe Egwene was pretty changed from that point on. At least, in regards to the collars. She carries that hate towards the collars for the rest of the series and is pretty much consistently the most draconian towards anything having to do with the collars or the Seanchan. Admittedly, when not I’m a situation with those in it, she’s pretty much exactly the same, but I think that’s more Jordan trying to write change. He does it more like a hammer than a pen most of the time, especially regarding Egwene, but then it also felt like he could never really pick a lane with her and stick with it. A lot of the side characters are mentally broken and require months if not years of what is essentially counseling and therapy to recover from the collars, so I think he did really want that to be an aspect of the collars and the lasting trauma they cause, but I don’t think he knew how to write a main character suffering with crippling ptsd. Even Rand, who we see the internal trauma and struggles the most out of all the characters, tends to just brood to himself but is rarely if ever damaged to the point that he can’t continue to sword fight bad guys or engage in political schemes. I love the books to death, but there are definitely issues with some of Jordan’s writing style

[@ziro4073]

@@TheCamster4545 I'd agree with you tho I think a lot of Egwenes changes are portrayed just way more subtlely than for other characters (her not seeking the adventure anymore or her constant headaches) but I'm also not that sure about her because I have yet to finish the series. Rand on the other hand had a big moment imo in the Path of Daggers where he nearly killed his soldiers trying to defeat the sanchean. There was a consequence there, he didn't defeat the Sanchean and nearly killed his people which aren't that direct of consequences as a characters death but pretty substancial imo. He also couldn't really do anything against the scheeming in the ranks of the Asha'man which lead to min and others nearly dying. The battle at Dunmai's Wells alsoworsened the oppinion on the Asha'man for a lot of people. I think that primarily his madness/mental health lets him to decisoin which damages his standing and political relationships which he needs to defeat the dark one.

[@peterg9729]

@@raybod1775 It was an abomination had nothing to do with the books apart from some names being similar. You never read them did you? Not even once.

[@pbh9195]

The thing is with game of thrones and Lord of the rings is they don't "start" with 5 stories going on at once They start with a set of core characters Frodo and Hobbits at shire Stark family and winterfell At its through there point of view that we are introduced to other characters and plot that happen gradually

[@saraa.4295]

If we talk about the books, that is true for LOTR but not ASOIAF, where we had different viewpoints from the start.

[@cheeks7050]

@@saraa.4295 It started with the Starks.

[@saraa.4295]

@@cheeks7050 yes, but it got to Dany very fast without a direct link to characters we already knew.

[@cheeks7050]

@@saraa.4295 The Lord of the rings started with Elrond, Isildur, Sauron, then randomly jumps to the shire. OP isn't saying there aren't multiple characters he's saying they get introduced sequentially.

[@saraa.4295]

@@cheeks7050 no he says we get introduced to new characters through the point of view we know. Which is true for LOTR if we ignore the prologue (as we should as it is not in the book and also ancient history) but it is not true for a song of ice and fire. We meet ice (starks) and fire (Targaryens) separately and the book series builds up to them meeting

[@Zorak_97]

Bloom's concept of "misreading" does not necessarily mean a "bad reading", but rather a very personal and specific reading the strong poet does of his precursor. Bloom is a gnostic, so every time he interprets Literature, he interprets in gnostic and heretical terms. He defends the idea that artistic and literary creation can only exist through a heterodoxical disposition in his _Ruin The Sacred Truths_ (1989). So the strong poet is not giving a bad take on his precursor, but rather an interpretation that shifts from the canonical and orthodoxical understanding of that particular poem and only makes sense to the personality of the strong poet. The precursor is the sacred text, and every sacred text generates a certain hermeneutics around it, but at the same time every sacred text incites specific groups of people to interpret it in non-orthodox ways. If the strong poet creates a poem that exists in correlation to the current interpretation of the poem that came before, he's not actually creating anything, he's just practicing another form of reading, so he needs to interpret the precursor in a more extravagant way. For exemple, Blake reads Milton as a luciferian poet given how much space of protagonism Milton gives to Satan in _Paradise Lost_ . That is not, however, the basic interpretation of Milton, because Milton was a christian protestant and wrote the antithesis to _Paradise Lost_ with _Paradise Regained_ . Milton in Blake's work is exactly that: Blake's Milton, not the "real" Milton. But Blake wouldn't be able to create his work ( _Marriage_ , _Songs_ , _Jerusalem_ etc) if he didn't read Milton in that way.

[@Yggdraseed]

Thank you, this was an unexpected, but very welcome find. I've been trying to find ways to express the idea that literary interpretation is on some level an inherently creative process, that beyond needing to look at subtext it's also crucial to remember that any profound experience with a work of art of any kind is going to require the reader to add their own emotions, experiences, and ideas to it. The book isn't finished when the ink is dry, it's finished when the reader consumes and engages with it on the deepest level they can.

[@Zorak_97]

​​​​@@Yggdraseed I recommend Antoine Compagnon's _Le Demon de la Théorie_ (in English: _Literature, Theory and Common Sense_ ). He has a chapter entirely dedicated to how literary theory and literary criticism perceives the role of the reader in the interpretation of the literary work. The idea that there's only one correct interpretation and anything else is "bad take" is absurd, the author's intention is the author _interpreting_ what he has created and it's one amidst many other interpretations that can be made. That doesn't mean the work can mean anything we can come up with, the work is trying to say _something_ (already implying it's specificity), we need to analyze what exactly it is, any interpretation needs to be proved in the symbolic context of the work. Art is not a riddle where there's only a correct answer. The author's intent need to be taken into consideration, but it can't reduce our reading, as if the author dictates its meaning to us and can charge us for other meanings we can give it in almost inquisitorial ways. For exemple: * Jane Austen can be interpreted as a proto-feminist in how the theme of gender dynamics appears in her novels, but at the same time conservatives tend to read her as an exercise in aristotelian ethics, using Aristotle's _Nicomachean Ethics_ as a interpretive north; * English, American and Canadian criticism like T.S. Eliot and Northrop Frye interpreted Blake as a devout Christian poet, but the french like the Surrealists (Breton, Aragon, Soupault, Artaud) read Blake as a dark and rebellious romantic of a luciferian consciousness who sings a song of absolute freedom from any metaphysical norm; * Louis Ferdinand Céline was a Nazi who wrote three antisemitic pamphlets in France during the german occupation in late 30s, but that didn't stop left wing literary critics from interpreting progressive themes in Céline's work, like anti-war, anti-militarism, anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism, anti-industrialism etc; * Shakespeare wrote _The Merchant Of Venice_ to be a comedy, but now, after Holocaust, we tend to read and perform the play as a tragedy or a problem play; * Alan Moore is a leftist who wrote Rorschach to be a satire of the fascist mindset that pervades vigilantist ideas (Batman, Question), but that didn't stop some people from interpreting Rorschach as the only truly moral voice of the story; * Christian theologians in the Middle Ages were totally aware of the paganism of Homer, Hesiod, Virgil and Ovid, but that didn't stop them from trying to identify early Christian symbols in the works of those poets; * Scherazade's story in _One Thousand and One Nights_ can be interpreted both as a feminist tale of female autonomy and emancipation and as a misogynistic tale the only affirms the patriarchy by the end; The problem of interpretation is much more complicated than we (or the internet) think.

[@Yggdraseed]

@@Zorak_97 Thank you so much for the additional recommendations and food for thought in general! I appreciate it!

[@alanpennie]

Paradise Lost is not consistent with itself. Satan gets degraded from hero to weasel as it goes on. Perhaps this was unavoidable given what the poem was *about*.

[@wirilome]

To me, the most insane way wheel of time tried to become more grimdark was in creating a wife for Perrin to brutally (accidentally) murder... thereby either forcing a focus from his character on grief/guilt for an extensive period of time, or by making Perrin move on instantly and making him seem kinda sociopathic. Let alone all the unfortunate implications of making the character they cast with a black man succumb to a violent rage and killing his white wife while in it...

[@mrink8822]

Succession genuinely feels like the closest we've gotten to something that captures the same feelings as Game of Thrones, especially the family dynamics

[@raphaelzakhm7310]

Exactly! I love fantasy for the sake of fantasy, but what made GoT special was not the fantasy genre itself

[@batsaubattler3200]

Agreed

[@youngnat]

The Roys are basically Lannisters, maybe all of them actually.

[@batsaubattler3200]

@@mrink8822 agreed.they literally wrote Shakespeare in a modern day setting.

[@mrink8822]

@batsaubattler3200 Game of Thrones is inspired to Shakespeare

[@elliot2331]

An early show that was pushed by higher ups to be more like Game of Thrones is Black Sails, making the first season the most violent and the have the most sex in it, but starting in season two it was allowed to do its own thing and became incredible (season 1 was still good though), and Black Sails is now probably my favourite tv show of all time.

[@RoyalFusilier]

I really loved that show, and by the end I was longing to see the alternate history where pirates teamed up with slaves to contest the New World domination of the Spanish and British empires and all the other colonial powers. That would not have led to Treasure Island which it was a prequel to, but it would have been amazing.

[@jonfisher4106]

Is this why everytime I watch RoP or The Witcher I spend my time saying things like “where are they?!” Or “why should I care about this person?!” Great video thank you!

[@michaeladu6120]

ATLA was especially brutal for me. I got up to episode 4 and was like 'Nah, this ain't my avatar'

[@hazeshi6779]

I'd always thought a live action avatar was destined to fail so I won't even watch it

[@Bustermachine]

I didn't hate it . . . But I eventually stopped watching. Because yeah, it's competently made and I feel like everyone was trying their best, but nothing about it grabbed me the way the original did. It wasn't the presence of bad, it was the absence of 'great'.

[@doghat1619]

Doomed from the start. You don't need to make a live action adaptation of a show that is still great and still holds up. Even if they changed nothing, even if they made the most faithful adaptation possible, it would merely just be a good show, just inferior to the original.

[@gonkdroid8279]

I was in the same boat. I wanted it to succeed though since it could bring in new fans, especially since the first half of season 1 of the OG show is a bit rough and is likely to turn people away from the story

[@duvetboa]

​@@doghat1619Yeah lots of these remakes are completely unnecessary. It's just an attempt to recycle IP. ATLA could only be made worse by trying to "re-do" it.

[@thomasnixon8686]

So basically: enjoy the works of the people who inspire you, but don't take it too seriously. Do your own thing and take pleasure in what you create. I'll go do that :)

[@ATRStormUnit]

And this is why Dungeon Meshi and and Frieren were the best fantasy series recently.

[@poenpotzu2865]

Ah yes the two fantasy series that combines slice of life and existential dread in a somber yet heartwarming tone

[@CarrotConsumer]

Fantasy anime certainly has its own problem with trend chasing.

[@The7thDraconian]

​​@@CarrotConsumerHey you want another show about some dude getting hit by a truck and then getting sent to a world where he's super strong and everyone wants to suck his dick? Course you do, here's twelve of the damn things every season.

[@stargazer5780]

not even close

[@andyb1169]

​@@CarrotConsumeroh boy. Another isieki power fantasy. Havent seen 300 of those this week.

[@mxvega1097]

Scene: Hollywood writers' room, everyone studies Bloom, discusses, resolves to pursue excellence in writing. Now THAT'S fantasy.

[@michaelwoodby5261]

There were a couple concurrent clones worth mentioning: Spartacus: Blood and Sand was quite silly, and leaned into the violence, sex, and fancy dialogue to a cartoonish extreme, but I think accomplished what it set out to do. The REAL successor that should have been was Black Sails. It came out on a premium channel nobody had, but was utterly fantastic. In plotting, writing, and acting it was as good as Game Of Thrones at its best, and maintained or improved on those qualities as it went on. It should have found a massive audience, but a tree falls in a forest and there's nobody subscribed.

[@cam1772fsu]

Black Sails was SO good....

[@goodpuppii]

Your essays are beautifully written, quite insightful, and always entertaining, including this one. I particularly liked the bit at the end about “The Return of the Dead” and your questions about whether or not this method to alleviate the anxiety of creating art is really a worthy pursuit. I think this is really going to help me in my own creative endeavors. Thanks.

[@thekiss2083]

At 30:31 I heard "Eragon" instead of "Aragorn" and it triggered my middle-school fantasy PTSD from 20 years ago

[@ethancoster1324]

Every artist is a cannibal. Every poet is a thief. All kill their inspiration and sing about their grief.

[@30noir]

Since your name isn't Bono, that quote should probably be credited.

[@aaron234567890987643]

Unintentionally hilarious ​@@30noir

[@GeneralCrabs]

@@30noir I’ve been saying this for so long. People in the KZbin comments need to start citing their sources or get banned for plagiarism!

[@ivancorredera4241]

The show runners of Netflix’s Avatar attempt at trying to appeal to fans of game of thrones by combining the somber tone and complex political schemes with the lighthearted adventures and character driven plot of the original Avatar sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[@aruak321]

It was mediocre to ok but it definitely lost the charm and magic of the animated show. Watch that one instead.

[@Ninjaananas]

It is still a fine show. The politics also don't feel out of place.

[@Lastofthemohaggens]

Honestly, the change in tone worked better than I expected, with the new Fire Nation stuff and especially Zhao being pretty much the highlight of the show. The bigger issue is flattened characterization and terrible dialogue, which kinda eclipse any other issues by being so egregious. Netflix thinks their viewers are idiots half-watching while on their phones, and even if they're right, making the show *for* people like that has the side effect of ruining it if you are paying any attention.

[@nyanchat2657]

watching the adaptation made me feel like I was wasting my time and could just go back to the OG

[@aruak321]

@@Lastofthemohaggens Yeah a lot of the little moments in the animated show really fleshed out the characters and their relationship to one another. By excluding those moments in the live action version, the characters had a lot less depth and the friendship between them felt a lot weaker.

[@adamoutrage6597]

Egwene was definitely affected by her experience with the collar throughout the book series. Not as much as Theon sure but his torture lasted longer and was more brutal.

[@micahbonewell5994]

Yeah basically everytime Egwene's character hears about the Seanchan she gets PTSD about it

[@wolfjoat]

And it reflects in her actions towards them in the later books as a leader. It takes a lot for her to come to the same negotiating table as them even with the world at stake and it is a lever they use against her in those negotiations.

[@qwertyloops]

hahaha i love the Every Frame A Painting nod. I only subbed to you after they stopped making videos, but you're also great in your own way, thanks for these videos!

[@michaelotis223]

EFAP is back!

[@codyh9175]

This makes me think of that book series that's called something like "A court of roses and thorns" or something

[@CanalTremocos]

Surprising that with such a generic name I know exactly which one it is. Makes me want to start with something like 'a fist for crows' and go from there.

[@codyh9175]

@@CanalTremocos right? I feel like every fantasy series, especially books, are blatantly ripping names off with 1 or 2 tiny changes

[@athenajaxon2397]

They've been trying to make that a show for so long Margot Robbie is rumored to produce it

[@mxvega1097]

The Thing of Thing and Thing. Sarah J Maas. Hack.

[@d33pblu3]

That’s a whole different can of worms that didn’t make it’s way into Hollywood. Yet. The X of Y and Z books are just pornography. I dread the day when they start making their way onto screens.

[@SaberRexZealot]

I think Shōgun is the only thing that’s come close to capturing some of that GoT spirit, even though it’s not fantasy.

[@pogo8050]

Exactly. Cause the focus is on the actual political intrigue, how the different characters navigate the situations and how it affects them as people.

[@nont18411]

And even that is quite a little bit insulting to Shogun, because it was written before GoT for 21 years and it’s based on actual Japanese history and people by the writer James Clavell who actually fought in ww2. It’s not meant to be a “Japanese Game of Thrones” because Clavell died 2 years before Martin even published his first Thrones book. If you think about it, Clavell’s experience is much more similar to those of Tolkien than Martin.

[@frantisekhajek6775]

​@@nont18411Exactly, my father has read A Song of Ice and Fire, and said: It reminded me of Shogun a lot.

[@stefansauvageonwhat-a-twis1369]

If misunderstanding of the originals leads to great art then surely Zack Snyder is the greatest just a bit of a jest there for y'all

[@vernonmeidlinger870]

so what i'm hearing is it's not too late to finally start watching Game of Thrones

[@ahabicher]

you are better off reading the books. ;)

[@thenobletaco4232]

Yeah just don't watch past season 6. Also definitely read the books they're way more interesting.

[@shomarinangwaya-walker8295]

​@@ahabicheryeah amd you may only have to wait 5 years for the next book 😂😭

[@daninjamonkey1]

ik it's pretentious read it first if you haven't, plenty of detail gets lost in the adaption (there are plenty of nice additions as well). And the ending doesn't suck (or exist yet)

[@thewatcher4552]

Don't feel bad I didn't get started till season 6😅

[@thomasciuffreda8783]

I agree with Bloom; an artist must respect the past, but not slavishly follow it, and he must recognize his own worth, his own ideas, without being arrogant enough to believe that he is an Original Thinker who is above the geniuses of the past. This is why I like the WoT books, they were made out of a love of Tolkien, but was also it's own thing the more you get into the series. It' also why I *HATE* the show, which turns the story into something it's not.in order to replicate GoT's success.

[@Tommedian]

The fact you didn’t name this video “Game of Clones” is a massive missed opportunity

[@SuperRSWalkthrough]

hehe

[@SkullCollectorD5]

A striking irony to me is how GRR Martin wrote ASOIAF specifically to be un-broadcastable after he grew frustrated as a TV writer forced into moulds; budgets and sensibilities. Grand politics, vast battles and geographies to the violence and sex. He was probably right that that would never have aired in the 90's, and now here we are, seeing show after show made, because Martin broke that mould, casting themselves into a new one.

[@Zorak_97]

Another thing I forgot to mention (forgive me for making various comments): you could have used Celebrimbor's anxiety of influence in relation to Fëanor in _The Rings Of Power_ as an example. When Sauron/Annatar tries to persuade Celebrimbor to fabricate the 9 rings for Men, he uses the argument that "after the rings of power, nobody will remember Fëanor's silmarils". That's what any strong poet wants: to make the precursor obsolete, outdated and a mere footnote to his own work. We could even say that Sauron is in a anxiety of influence in relation not to Eru/Iluvatar, but to his old master Morgoth.

[@alanpennie]

Sauron is definitely presented as a kind of artist who wants to do something new and great, though it's very unclear what it is.

[@Holt344Gaming]

This was an incredible video! Loved the focus on Harold Bloom and the analyze you did (had no idea about him before)

[@meghanhenderson6682]

I think the best answer to developing work with its own identity is to unapologetically take influence from as many sources as possible; you get something new not by saying "how do I get Game of Thrones/Harry Potter/Lord of the Rings/Twilight/Starwars/whatever the hell comes next out of (insert the property rights I have now)." You get something new by going through so many stories (no matter the medium) in so many varieties that you forget where the ideas started separate and they start coming together. If you take influence from one source, that's a problem. Take it from a hundred and you've got something new.

[@MissRedLu]

Steal like an artist, dammit!

[@JuancharroVlogs]

This was LOVELY. It entertained me for 3 days. I love this dual topic essay format (Im not dure if the video was about Harold Bloom's anxieties or Game of Thrones Clones).

[@alanpennie]

It was good of Bloom to confine himself to poetry, because his analysis is so readily transferable to other genres.

[@realNom2mooncow]

I thought that the Egwene plotline was pretty well handled in the show because that's how it felt to read: I was terrified of the Seanchen for the rest of the series because of that, always a looming threat in the back of my mind. Also I think that Egwene did change a lot after the book 2 torture, even if she went back to adventuring. After that she had a real edge to her that only built throughout the series and it made her a really compelling character in my opinion.

[@aruak321]

I agree. That experience when she was captured by the Seanchan fundamentally altered her character from that point on and that hardening of personality made her into a more interesting character.

[@AnnaCurser]

"Why are you grabbling with ghosts?" "How could I not? I sleep on a graveyard."

[@alanpennie]

Nice! If only I could turn time, If only I could zap these ghosts...

[@MrJJ86]

I got inspired by a book to always bring a towel. Its the first thing i pack. I also fear the day the dolphins leave.

[@marvi32]

hearing you describe the Witcher as a detective story sounds so cool - we have been robbed

[@jstarwars360]

What you described is nothing new. Big film comes along, it gets duplicated, and then a new thing comes along. Narnia really wanted to be the next Lord of the Rings with a ton of emphasis on the big epic battles. Likewise, The Giver played more like Hunger Games with a lot more emphasis on taking down the evil leaders. Often these things are shrugged at the time but reappraised once the trend has died down and people are nostalgic for it.

[@nathandrake5544]

I never thought of Narnia in that way tbh. I think the 2000s fantasy adaptation that most closely tried to emulate LOTR was Eragon. The most goofy thing is that they try to copy those beautiful panoramic nature shots of New Zealand but you can easily tell its just the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia.

[@ian-flanagan]

Don’t you think it’s worse now? I feel like at least 25% of all budget is spent on the next Thrones or the next MCU.

[@jstarwars360]

@@ian-flanagan Keep in mind some of these new shows are stiff in their infancy being only a season or two in. I remember in the wake of Gravity Falls' success, Disney Channel greenlit three similar shows Ducktales Revival, Amphibia, and Owl House. At first I thought they were too derivative of Gravity Falls but all three really came into their own as they went along. Was crazy watching people discover Owl House first and then go back and watch Gravity Falls.

[@ian-flanagan]

@@jstarwars360 I’m working on the assertion that the writer/executive power-split has swung massively towards executives in recent years, so (conveniently for my argument!) past examples don’t represent current reality. I feel like in the past, many projects spawned from a writers header and passed across an executive’s desk, but these days the majority of projects are penciled into a release schedule prior to writers being hired.

[@SixActStructure]

I pay for premium and watch a ton of KZbin but this is the best essay I've seen in a long time.

[@Domefossil]

It's kind of looping back round the other way because of all of the GoT clones; I'm getting tired of 'morally grey' characters. Bring back characters that are good people, that do right and are moral people who strive to fight in a world of shit, that give stories hope through their struggle. Characters like Zack Fair from Final Fantasy, or Guts from Berserk, or Hercules from Disney.

[@saraa.4295]

Agree.. I mean..i like morally grey characters, they are great. But sometimes i like to just dream of a better world where good is good!!

[@sashasemennikov157]

Since when Guts is not morally grey? Yes he fights evil. But god forbid an honest guardsmen to stand between him and Griffith. The guardsmen would be obliterated from the existence in a moment

[@uriel7395]

​@@sashasemennikov157 That's only really true of the black swordsman arc (where he does exactly that) and early in the conviction arc. Until recently, Guts has been pretty calm and level headed for quite a while

[@ilikebutter942]

Guts isn't a "good guy". Even now, he's not going out of his way to be a hero. He reacts to the shitty things that happen in his life and just wants to survive. Berserk and grimdark seinen is the wrong example to use. Even tho it can be stereotypical, shonen is the best example of this.

[@monkeydetonation]

I had this on my second monitor kind of half watching but I got around 20% through and I realised you were cooking so I went back and gave it the full attention it deserves

[@HeribertoEstolano]

32:20 You can ALSO look at A Song of Ice and Fire as "What if It was a historical political plot, but in a Fantasy World" since Martin also admittedly was inspired by Maurice Druon's work "The Accursed Kings" series.

[@vee1766]

Which is a whole genre in itself in fantasy and is not limited to GRR Martin. Accusing any gritty/political fantasy to be a "Game Of Throne" is just idiotic, they just in the same genre. It's like dismissing Cyberpunk Edgerunner because "it's imitating Blade Runner", it's dumb.

[@HeribertoEstolano]

​@@vee1766exactly. I feel like people who insist on Comparing ASOIF to Lord of the Rings only know these two pieces of Fantasy.

[@vee1766]

@@HeribertoEstolano I would get further, i think most of these people acting like experts on fantasy never opened fantasy book in their life.

[@HeribertoEstolano]

​@@vee1766Oh: it's medieval, but not in Real Históry Medieval Europe, it's a Lord of the Rings clone. I've met A LOT of people like that in my life.

[@PastaAivo]

The worst part of this whole process is that the source material in all of these examples had already established their unique and brilliantly crafted selves, and it was the adaptation process which forced them into the mold of "what's currently popular", versus trying to be the next popular thing. When chasing trends, you cannot be years and years late.

[@Tacom4ster]

Avatar the Last Airbender is not GoT, it's philosophically the opposite with youthful optimism of the young fixing the world the adults broke, Im tired of people comparing the two

[@NA-ys9ib]

Yeah I don't remember anyone getting raped in Avatar lmao

[@realtalk13]

the entire point of its inclusion in the vid is to demonstrate that big corpos are actively trying to meld the two, despite their fundamental differences, to the detriment to the adaptations that are birthed from the union. the comparison is made in this vid because it was actively courted.

[@aedrianys]

But that's the same in ASOIAF my friend. The main characters are all children trying to fix the broken world they see adults leave them in real time.

[@dilwitchspahlin4761]

The Netflix series is clearly trying to copy GOT’s success. The showrunners literally admitted it themselves. Stop deluding yourself

[@acoupleofschoes]

@@aedrianys Daenerys is the only character maybe trying to "fix a broken world" by ending slavery. And Jon is just trying to survive the apocalypse by getting people to stop seeing the Wildlings as savages. No one else is doing anything so aspirationally altruistic.

[@RawrBomb]

A good example of this is Star Trek Discovery. While a lot of the criticism of the show I would describe as 'exhausting manosphere garbage'. One of it's biggest issues in it's first season was how much it was clearly trying to be Game of Thrones in space. With SA, brutal deaths of major characters, swearing, political intrigue. It just didn't work for Trek.

[@alanpennie]

Sadly they didn't even commit to that. Lorca as traumatized PTSD survivor (like Jaime) would have been much more interesting than what we ended up with.

[@ethanknifsend9775]

Most of these game of thrones clones feel like they’re trying to copy game of thrones season 7 rather than season 1.

[@RoyalFusilier]

Not only are they trying to copy something else, but they're trying to copy the worst part of it.

[@rayfwu]

The original Game of Thrones was Battlestar Galactica and that came and went loong before the GOT show was a thing. (The novels are a different thing)

[@voidutopian]

And that one had a huge influence on sci-fi TV as well. It's easy to point at the most blatant imitators like Stargate: Universe, but there is a world of difference between 90's sci-fi and something like The Expanse, and it's not just the effects. Most information on sci-fi history is firmly tied up in literature by virtue of its long and winding path, but I think there's some value in understanding the history of the genre in other mediums.

[@EvelynNdenial]

the bit about GoT being 5 years ago. supposedly we're in an age where everything is changing extremely quickly with technology advancing so fast and all, but it FEELS like we've been kinda stuck for the past decade. things change fast sure but its always just new ways to do the exact same shit, that we're culturally just spinning our tires and only sinking deeper in the mud. things get faster and faster and we go nowhere.

[@vee1766]

Or it's simply a genre in fantasy that has existed for more than 20 years and has nothing to do with Game Of Thrones. Which you would know if you ever opened a fantasy book. It's like accusing any cyberpunk show/movie to copy Blade Runner, it's idiotic.

[@ian-flanagan]

If you hear an unknown piece of music from 50s-90s, I bet you can guess the decade. But 00s, 10s, and 20s not so much. I’m sure every previous generation felt the same, and said “no really this time”, but I think it’s really really this time 😂

[@DuctTapeJake]

The thing I found most interesting about the amazing Game of Thrones intro was not just that it was a map showing the geography of the shows world, but that it specifically highlighted what locations were part of the upcoming episode. It was saying 'This episode will take place in Winterfell, Kings Landing and Mereen', so you also sort of knew who was going to play a major part.

[@Catpuff818]

Thrones clones: we're deep and gritty! My gown ass: i am too emotionally exaughsted. I'll watch the silly low stakes cartoon. A few episodes later, i realized the cartoon actually lulled me into a false sense of security, and im actually watching some of the best cinema.

[@line4169]

most fanatsy anime

[@Bustermachine]

@@line4169 Looks at all the Isekai slop . . . Well, I don't know what to you there. That said, plenty of definitely worthwhile anime and cartoons, just that it has about the same ratio of duds as anyplace else. I think the main difference is that animation, while not cheap, can give you a presentable product for much less money than these huge spectacle shows. So it's a large number of duds, but also a larger number of successful projects.

[@katsuragi9689]

is this comment about Legend of the Galactic Heroes

[@Catpuff818]

@@katsuragi9689 not specifically but that definally applies. I'm currently watching Reboot.

[@katsuragi9689]

@@Catpuff818 >reboot i..

[@BerlinTrainStation1]

The great irony of this is that in 2024, the last thing any of us are looking for in our fantasy series, is more politics. And on that same note, we could use a lot more whimsy and lightheartedness, the things these adaptations are so eager to cut.

[@samcostello2861]

Aside from Tolkien, another major influence on Martin's series was Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams. This series (along with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time) is credited with being the bridge between classic and modern fantasy. There are a lot of similarities between Westeros and Williams' Osten Ard setting (ex. a villain with a dog-shaped helmet, rival claimants fighting over an exotic throne, a race of malevolent fairies dwelling in the cold north, etc.).

[@cam1772fsu]

Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn is SO good! Tad Williams is definitely underrated.

[@jiffydinger-gardner635]

Man I miss Every Fame A Painting soooo much!!! But if it makes you feel any better, your channel is the best replacement I've ever found. Truly.

[@achimney29]

The public craves a Game of thrones style remake of Boyz n the hood

[@comradetrashpanda8777]

The Wire?

[@andrewklang809]

They can kill off Furious at the end of season one and spend three whole episodes on Ricky getting shot.

[@kohhna]

Wu Tang: An American Saga?

[@samwelltarly6700]

I was literally at the end of episode 9 out of 10 of Shogun before I realized, having read the book and watched the original miniseries years ago, "wait a minute, at the rate they're burning through the plot they're going to run out of story by the end of next episode! Let me double-check that this is actually supposed to be a multi-season series!" And yes. The entirety of Shogun's 1200 pages have been collapsed into just 10 hours of TV and there's going to be at least one extra season. Evidently they thought they needed to get the Shogun-part of their Shogun-series out of the way so they could make Game of Thrones: Samurai Edition.

[@charliemaguire976]

A phrase that always stuck in head was how the director of Star Trek II approached making the follow up to massive franchise, "A healthy amount of disrespect."

[@alanpennie]

WoK had no reason to be as good as it was. Paramount just wanted something cheap.

[@mbanerjee5889]

The reason all of these "clones" fail is because they don't understand proper world building and character development. Something like the Hunger Games series or Harry Potter series their have own identities aside from LotR or Star Wars. It is easy to recognize when things are the same, it's harder to pinpoint what makes something uniquely different. The reason we will never get another GoT is because there are no more shared experiences. The internet is so fragmented into different apps and streaming sites that no one show will hold that kind of attention again. Sure you get momentary popularity like Squid Game, The Boys, Bridgerton, The Last of Us, etc. But how many of them will change the media landscape and not just become products of their time? GoT was the last time society experienced a show together as it unfolded. The concept of "must tv" started with Lost and ended with GoT.

[@rmsgrey]

I've seen people make the same claim about multi-channel TV having killed the cultural touchstone, and that the last great cultural event was the original release of Star Wars.

[@kosatochca]

@@rmsgrey Are they that wrong? Cultural events of course happened, but movies in theatres stopped being the driving force

[@BioshadowX]

Corporations don't care if it's new. They would re-release Game of Thrones 1:1 if they could.

[@John-uh5et]

The Expanse is probably as close to Game of Thrones as I’ve seen, in a good way. It’s an ensemble cast of characters from wildly different backgrounds, all navigating a treacherous political landscape. War looms on the horizon, and there’s a mysterious alien threat that threatens to destroy it all. So yeah, Game of Thrones in space, except not narratively disappointing.

[@090giver090]

Because the origianl material *was already wrintten this way!* So adapting it "the GoT way" was not far from the source material so all these characters and politics looked organic to the setting. On the other hand, trying to adapt a medieval chronicle-esque set of legends, a young-adult adventure story and a philosophical inquiry into "grounded and gritty tale of politics, backstabbing and suffering" is doomed to fail from the very beginning.

[@clownpendotfart]

The Expanse was co-written by one of GRRM's old assistants.

[@John-uh5et]

@@clownpendotfart No kidding? That makes sense.

[@SmokeyLaBear]

When The Witcher dropped on Netflix in 2019, I was disappointed in its apparent desperation to be the next Game of Thrones 😞

[@petrfedor1851]

They tried So hard they cut all genuine similiarities And erased all of Its unique strenght

[@alanpennie]

The first episode was such an obvious rip off that I stopped watching. I believe season 1 did get better.

[@SmokeyLaBear]

@alanpennie, first episode was the best episode, and then it continued to worsen.

[@uvarighalvarado8677]

Nice to see you back, I also really dig this new format, keep up the good work!

[@akost96]

It feels like you're picking what everyone's thinking about but can't formulate and then put it into these awesome essays. There's no channel like this on youtube. Thank you, man)

[@Arkholt2]

This has extended to video games, too. Final Fantasy 16 was explicitly a Thrones Clone, by the admission of its developers. Speaking of anti-Tolkiens and the Return of the Dead, I remember back in 2019 there was talk of an Elric of Melniboné show in development. Not sure if that ever actually went anywhere, but the author Michael Moorcock is decidedly anti-Tolkien, and has been an inspiration for a lot of the grimdark fantasy that we see, including I imagine A Song of Ice and Fire. If the series ever does actually get made, I'm sure there will be comparisons to Game of Thrones, even though it was a precursor.

[@Krustenkaese92]

and then there's the One Piece adaptation that became the years biggest hit just by staying true to the source material and not making it like GoT. One Piece is campy and goofy and hopeful and full of whimsy and it's all the better for it. I think there's only so much room in most peoples brains for a GoT-like complex fantasy epic at a time and TV producers are totally misreading the audience demand when they bank everything on Thrones-clones. Most people (meaning the non-fantasy-expert general audience) don't even have the capacity, energy or time to care for Wheel of Time AND Rings of Power at the same time imo, hence why something like One Piece became such a hit. One Piece has great characters and is well written and even though there are serious themes throughout, the TONE is goofy and fun and it doesn't need you to remember every bit of its world building, so you can follow the politics of this world (having read the manga, that comes way later lmao). It's a swashbuckling adventure and I think people really missed that amidst the high end drama of fantasy TV.

[@ian-flanagan]

A writer created GoT. Executives created the clones. This video is really interesting and I learned a lot, but an alternative view is that Thrones Clones have nothing to do with writers. It’s always been an imperfect balance, but the industry power pendulum has swung so far now that very few projects spawn from a writer’s passion. “I need a Captain America for March and a team-up content for the summer” “I bought a part of LOTR. I need mysteries for the water cooler, ships for twitter, skin-variety for puff pieces, and oh yes, must be a smash hit. Here’s a billion dollars; 3, 2, 1, go!”

[@VirtualBoy500]

"Game of Clones" It was right there. Missed opportunity.

[@TheMe9595]

If you listen to the audiobook for The Eye of the World, there is an interview with Jordan at the end where he talks about how he wanted to swerve away from Tolkien. I also had a discussion with a friend who had just read The Eye of the World and he asked me if the book was inspired by Harry Potter.

[@DorkSausage]

I’ve recovered. I’ve rewatched it several times. It’s not perfect, but it’s still better than most other shows out there, s6-8 included.

[@sabrinagibby4167]

Love that at 6:48, calling it the Swerve is a swerve ❤

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

I think the main issue is in mindset rather than the exact individual elements. I think far too many creators are focusing too much on making "their take" on something. This is something extremely common with artists as you can see how popular and ever-present fanart is. "My take" on this popular character. And some artists make their living solely doing "their takes". This leads into a lot of pretty good artists lacking their own identity because all they want to do is "A Game of Thrones-like". They don't have a good idea they absolutely want to do, they don't have a story in mind, no character. Their priority is to make Game of Thrones, but with "my stuff". Not making "my stuff" that's inspired by Game of Thrones.

[@ethanknifsend9775]

The fact they tried to make avatar the last Airbender a game of thrones clone is so ridiculous

[@alanpennie]

It's a bit like remaking *Topcat* to be more like GoT.

[@achimdemus-holzhaeuser1233]

They have all been the next Game of Thrones. A Series that starts strong or with a strong concept and then gets FFd up massively as the Showrunners deviate from the Source.

[@dhruv9744]

I think the reason these clones can’t reach the believability level of GoT is because they are too simple and Dickensian. GoT accounts for the actions of beyond tertiary characters (like literal pentanary characters). In these clones only actions of the cast are consequential which feels odd and unrealistic because that’s not how the real world works. Now that’s kinda the point GRRM was trying to build a realistic fantasy, but these clones are based on stories that aren’t trying to achieve that. They are attempting different things. Lord of the rings is extremely ignorant towards tertiary characters in favor for the impact of the characters of the main characters because it’s suppose to be a fairytale. That’s why the books are designed the way they are, that’s why the story of the second age takes over 500 years to take place. But the rings of power wants to Martinize the story so they try to use these conditions to do storylines that they don’t support. Foundation is the exact opposite, the books are super Hard scify where the actions of people across solar systems who’s name we don’t even know can affect the story, but they decided to make it more Dickensian and made 3 people who hold all consequence over the entire galaxy, while trying to pretend that there are 1000s of worlds.

[@clownpendotfart]

These writers WISH they belonged in the same sentence as Dickens. Dickens didn't write about saving the world.

[@Bishrekual]

Foundation is such a wild choice to try and make a GoT clone of. None of the books are at all like the others, and the conflicts all effectively settle themselves in one way or another. Even the Mule storyline ends on an anticlimax.

[@dhruv9744]

@@Bishrekual Yeah Foundation would work better as an anthology.

[@emilyglass6625]

This video exceeded all my expectations. Long live the video essay; examples like this one are exactly what I look forward to.

[@jsus159]

The actual next game of thrones is “Frieren Beyond’s Journey”

[@mobbs6426]

Martin may have recognised the dark lord trope, but he misunderstood the reason for it. He's effectively locked himself into an eternal Revenge of the Sith. He simply wanted evil to occasionally come out on top, but eventually, you have to give one side a 3rd act. Either good overcomes, and you accidentally write a Tolkien fantasy, or evil wins out and you risk writing a tragedy which are hard to end in a satisfying way. People latched on to GOT in part to see how good would come to succeed in a world so stacked against it. Audiences never wanted to wallow in the misery, but to see how deep into the abyss the light could pierce.

[@blackfox4138]

I mean if we're talking influence: A Song of Ice and Fire is basically just Dune x Lord of the Rings. Someday a new thing will appear that'll be Game of Thrones x Some other piece of media. And so on and so forth.

[@masonthib94]

Changing an original thing to be like GoT = bad Changing GoT to make something original = good