Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Joffrey: 13 and Ruling? | Podcast

[@evalationx2649]

Cersei was effectively Queen regent, she should have been making decisions on Joffreys behalf. However Cersei was terrified of Joffrey and because Cersei is a disaster herself she just let Joffrey run around Kings Landing like a monkey in a banana factory. The reason Tywin sent Tyrion to Kings landing to rule was because he knew Tyrion wasn't afraid of Joffrey.

[@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682]

Cersei isn't afraid of Joffrey hell in the books Tyrion gets him to stop beating and Sansa in part by threatening to tell Cersei about it.

[@pieguy12342]

If.

[@kingad8869]

@@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682 They're probably scared of each other.

[@christopherperson1939]

@@kingad8869 100 percent, especially because they are such mirrors of each other. Cersei molded him into the monster he is, so she has that psychological hold on him. And she's horrified by what she created, but has just sort of accepted it.

[@ivanmp3e48]

Cersei was tecnically his regent but people still did what he said just because he was a king. It's like Varys said power is a shadow and if enough people believe you are powerfull then you are powerfull. In the example he gave, being Ned's dead, he even referred Cersei as the all lawfull queen regent.

[@BurkeanMama]

Oh I forgot about that. Varys did explain this.

[@thisguy8106]

But. He's the only king to be able to rule as King before turning 16. Every other one had regents.

[@thisguy8106]

There were other kings who were ignored..even though they were the king. So what makes this one different?

[@ivanmp3e48]

@@thisguy8106 i don't know, maybe the war made It dificult to ignore Jofrey without making him seem like a Lannister puppet or maybe because other more rational kings would talk things before doing them It was easier to prevent them to be public but Jeofrey would do things randomly.

[@christopherbrewer222]

Im pretty sure its Cersie’s fault. She let Joffrey do whatever he wants his whole life. So when Robert died Cersie had to move quickly to get the up on Ned and declared Joff king. Joff kept doing whatever he wanted and Cersie didnt do anything about it. I like how Jamie started handling the Kings Guard as soon as he got back. Set those mother fuckers right.

[@Anhnguyen-zg7sm]

In the 1st book, Catelyn 2, after Ned decided to go south, he told Catelyn: "You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert's errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes."

[@josephradley3160]

Even Sansa thought at that tourney that she wouldn't mind marrying Tommen. Ned execution "surpised even the spider"

[@josephradley3160]

"Not Robert the second. Aerys the third" Tyrions thoughts

[@ashleyofnaath]

Your assessment of Theon was spot on. For such a long time I couldn't appreciate him as a character; mostly due to my sympathy for Robb (and fury that his mother screwed him at every turn). However, on my recent re-read of ADWD, I got to the part where the spearwive's escape plan goes awry and Theon uses the last bit of his strength to carry Jeyne up the stairs, and a strange thing happened...my heart grew three sizes. I felt like the Grinch when he discovered he loved Christmas. Then when Theon tries to comfort Jeyne who's insecure about her disfigured nose and says "you're Arya Stark, the heir to Winterfell; a thousand men will want to marry you"...I got choked up. Theon's one of my favorite characters now. He's so beautifully written. I wish Alfie Allen was given the chance to do those scenes. He would've knocked it out of the park. PS- I've got nothing to say about Joffrey. I'm just glad the little twat is gone. Good riddance.

[@jschoma11]

I felt for Theon when he returned to Iron islands and his family treated him poorly. He was truly alone at that point.

[@ashleyofnaath]

@@jschoma11 I just hope there's more in store for him than being Stannis's sacrifice. Though admittedly, I have my suspicions about about Bran and Bloodraven wanting to use Theon to raise Jon Snow. I hope not, but I'm worried...

[@winstonlewis5630]

Theon is one of the only show characters that weren’t ruined in my opinion

[@RevealTheStyle]

@@ashleyofnaath why for this purpose? I can’t see why they’d bother - the have another ways of doing it 🤔

[@josefboroff3966]

The small council each have their own reasons for letting Joffery rule. Littlefinger and Varys are using his stupidity to destabilize the realm and advance their respective plans, Pycelle is to much of a coward to do anything, Cersei is too stupid to use her authority or see any fault in letting her vile son rule in his own right, and both Stannis and Renly have left the city to stake their own claims to the throne. Tyrion tried his best to stop Joffery, but few like or respect him enough to assist him in this regard. It was only when Tywin showed up that Joffery was truly brought to heel.

[@BurkeanMama]

Exactly, Joffrey had an actually treasonous small Council. Not sure why Mary Ellen says Varys wants peace. Varys kills Kevan because he wants war.

[@ceilingfanenthusiast6041]

@@BurkeanMama but he wanted temporary peace at the start of the books right? While Aegon and the Dothraki were getting ready to do their respective jobs. I guess he was waiting for Aegon to grow up mainly. I remember Ilyrio telling him that he needed to keep the realm stable for just a little longer. Tbh idk if that actually makes sense. His early plot was a bit messy, but if he wasnt trying to maintain peace at that time, why try to save Ned?

[@garlantyrell8030]

I think the Tyrells would’ve been able to help Tommen rule greatly. Joffrey on the other hand, I think would’ve gotten killed by Loras for the eventual abuse of Margaery.

[@mysteryjunkie9808]

Tommen had potential with the Tyrells and Kevan Lannister as Hand to be a great King

[@prometeya3700]

Realistically, Tywin shouldn't even have to name himself regent. His title as the King's Hand would be enough to take control of matters. Even Tyrion would be enough as a substitute, to a certain point, but he didn't have enough power over Cersei to do that and what little he had, he squandered to bring Shae, and vex Pycelle (his only ally, if you think about it) In the end it all goes back to Tywin. Had he kept a closer eye on Cersei, Joffrey wouldn't even exist and between her and Tyrion they would be the perfect pair to tackle unruly heirs should the need arise. In the end he made it too easy for Baelish and Varys.

[@kiandocherty3589]

Pycelle was too pro-Cersei.

[@rebornstillborn]

@@kiandocherty3589 Pycelle seems to be mostly pro-Lannister. Cersei just happened to be of higher standing in the family than Tyrion. If Tyrion had done his best to stay on Pycelle's good side he would probably have preferred to avoid being dragged into their sibling rivalry which would just anger Tywin.

[@EPYHDA1]

Theon was forever handicapped by having the Stoneheart-in-waiting" while growing up, even admitted that she made him more uneasy that Ned with his Ice

[@n.y.174]

So I think Joff's time on the throne was an example of "power resides where men think it resides." His mom acted like he had power and everyone else followed along. Absolutely Cersei could have stepped in and really taken power as regent but why would she do that? Cersei is the reason he is the way he is. She pumped his ego up and coddled him. Along with a hefty amount of neglect from Robert, Joffrey had no chance. Whatever mental illnesses were there got magnified. And Cersei saw nothing wrong with Joffrey's decisions. The only time she criticizes him is over Ned's death and not even to his face. She said it to Tyrion. Cersei even EXPLAINED to Sansa why Joffrey was abusing her and she acted like it was natural and logical. Cersei thinks that Joffrey's cruelty is strength. When she's with Tommen she just keeps thinking how weak he is because he just obeys her and Joff would have fought her. And we see that reflected in Cersei's approach to ruling. Once she does take power as regent she makes terrible decisions and thinks being cruel is showing strength. How can we ask her too look at Joffrey and understand that his days on the throne are numbered when she can't see that about herself? I don't think Pycelle and Tywin were the best pen pals. Pycelle seemed to accepted Cersei and Jaime's authority just because they were Tywin's kids. It kind of shows later when he starts questioning Cersei's decisions like he never took a good look and saw how stupid she was. He also let Robert Ayrn die without consulting her or Tywin. And when Tywin did show up he seemed like he didn't know how bad Joffrey actually was. He asked Cersei about it, suggesting that in HER letters to him she never mentioned much. Cersei of course starts making excuses for Joff and blaming Robert and that punch that took two(?) Of Joffrey's baby teeth. Cersei doesn't take advice from people she doesn't like. If Varys or Tyrion had suggested taking power away from Joffrey she would have fought it to the end. Pycelle won't help because he hates Varys and Tyrion too. And as you said, Varys wasn't stepping in because a bad Lannister monarchy is good for his plans. This got long lol but basically no one stopped Joffrey because no one wanted to, except Tyrion and that didn't go well.

[@jaydenburgher2651]

Kinda funny how Cersei is a power hungry person. But doesn't seize it when everyone would have been fine with it

[@vlpinfinity9448]

Child leaders aren't that uncommon in ASOIAF. Robb' running the North at 14, Jon's running the Wall at 16, Dany's running Mereen at 15, and Lyanna Mormont is 10 running Bear Isle.

[@newperve]

Robb is running the North because his father left him in charge in Winterfell, with the understanding that he'd listen to the Maester and his wife. Both of whom he seems to be smarter than. Technically he should have a Regency Council, and maybe he does but they seem to be letting him have his way. In a war most people let leaders who win battles have their way. Jon running the wall is a bizarre act of democracy, and basically the result of the Watch not thinking to include age limits because they didn't think the choices would be that bad. "Dany's running Mereen at 15", yeah and when you get dragons you can rules wherever you like to. Lyanna Mormont should also have a council. There are a lot of de facto leaders in ASOIF but it's not presented as the norm, these are just weird times.

[@rayyanadeem2354]

Akbar the great is said to jave ascended the throne at 13

[@Baratheon.]

5:55 i doubt the precedence had been written by Martin yet, as i'm sure this history is from Fire & Blood. which is why i assume no-one brings it up lol. Given his self-professed gardener style, how he says he's constantly adding things in, building and letting it take life on it's own, I don't think he had this masterminded in book 1, 2 and 3

[@ivanbluecool]

It's pretty ironic how joffery was unhinged so they got rid of him and tommen just follows orders because he has a good heart and is too young but wants to learn to rule. It's kinda like how the books treat magor and aenis where you should find a balance between ruling of being both the sword and shield but the kingdom got it wrong both times with the boys n

[@micah06v8]

Updated: I've always wondered if Tywin wasn't actually secretly the mastermind of the Purple Wedding. He could easily have had information slipped to 1 Baelish's spies to kick the whole thing off. That would not only get Joffrey dealt with; but by having Tyrion blamed for it gets both of them out of Tywin's hair, and doesn't even have to get his hands dirty.

[@BurkeanMama]

Tywin was back in King's Landing weeks before the wedding.

[@Armaniche]

what hair?

[@panspermiapancakes]

When Joff is on the ground choking, Tywin barely flinched. The first thing he did was go to Tommen. It's possible that Tywin was responsible but he was a pretty calculated individual. He had no affection for Joffrey or Tyrion. However, while it's never confirmed in the books, I still believe Olena killed him because she was terrified of what he would do to her granddaughter after hearing all of Sansa's horror stories. The Tyrell's couldn't control or manipulate Joffrey, he was a threat to the entire kingdom but most specifically to Margery and all of house Tyrell. Tommen made more sense, he was younger, good natured and naïve. He was perfect for the opportunity. Tywin most likely knew what had taken place as soon as it was transpiring but I don't think he was aware of it prior to the wedding. Tyrion had conveniently just threatened the Kings life as well, so Tywin saw an opportunity to remove two problems at once instead of defending his son which he knew was innocent. Right before Tywin is killed, Tyrion was trying to get him to admit that he knew he was innocent and while Tywin didn't outright say it, he did tell him that he had always wanted him dead. Tywin is a lot of things, but he wouldn't outright make a move against his own family. Which is why Tyrion made it to adulthood. He always hated Tyrion and humiliated him but he wasn't a kin-killer. It would also be beneath him to poison someone. Poison is most often used by females and most of the men of westeros view it unfavorably.

[@astrinymris9953]

@@panspermiapancakes Tywin arranged the Red Wedding. Most men of Westeros viewed that extremely unfavorably. His drowning the Reynes in their own castle was also viewed unfavorably by most men. Conclusion: Tywin is not above using methods deemed "dishonorable" if it suits his purposes.

[@panspermiapancakes]

@@astrinymris9953 That is true but he does have his limits and he doesn't make moves against his own family. He does, however, allow situations to unfold against his family if he see's a benefit in it. He didn't care that Joff was poisoned, he knew it benefited the realm and himself with Joff out of the picture. He also saw an opportunity to get rid of Tyrion at the same time, while never actually being directly responsible for any of it. His hands are essentially clean in both situations, he just let things unfold naturally. He honestly didn't even know if Tyrion's champion would win the fight or not, he just left everything in the hands of fate. I mean, technically, the Red Viper could have easily won the fight, proving Tyrion's innocence, and then Tyrion would have still been around and his father would still be alive. Tywin went to war with the Starks to defend Tyrion because he is a Lannister, why would he frame him shortly after? It just doesn't make sense. He took advantage of a political move against his family from another family, and they just so happen to be making moves against family that he despises. They eliminated two problems for him at once, although they were not doing it for Tywin's benefit, it just worked out in his favor, at least until he was shot as a result of it all. lol He didn't foresee that happening, and all of a sudden 3 very powerful Lannister's are removed within a short period of time. Things worked out way better than the Tyrell's could have hoped for when they poisoned Joffrey. You're right that he is not above using methods that are considered dishonorable if it suits his purpose, and his lack of action to defend Tyrion against the accusations is proof of that, but to suggest he was directly responsible for Joff's poisoning would be ignoring all of the traits that make Tywin who he is. What Tywin did to House Reyne was in response to them rebelling against Lord Tytos Lannister because they deemed him to weak to rule. He made an example out of them without drawing a drop of blood. At the red wedding, it's worth noting that Tywin and house Lannister were not actually there, he had other men do his bidding. Why do both situations have in common? They insulted his house by making moves against his family, even though he personally despised the family he was defending. Tywin would have made a move against the Tyrell's as well after Joff's death, the opportunity just never comes because his own son shoots him. lol

[@alexturlais8558]

I mean Tywin basically takes control as if he were regent when he gets to King's Landing. Cersei is just too weak to stand up to him.

[@praetorxyn]

I think the short answer is because George needed a villain, world building be damned. The explanation that Tywin let it happen to make Tommen look better by contrast is as good an explanation as any.

[@ryanelliott71698]

2:43 yeah that’s what I argue when people try to defend Cersei in saying it’s not her fault that Ned died. Like b*tch Regent isn’t made for shits and giggles. It was made to have actual power. Cersei at any moment on that stage coulda stepped in front of Ned and commanded Payne to stop. She didn’t. Cause she can never say “no” to her sadistic child.

[@saminator3563]

I think that the small counsel allowing Joff to rule it the epitome of an empire falling. Corrupt rulers keeping a weak leader in charge to bend to their will. Robert wasn't cruel but he was not much better, The Mad King (the should have learned after trying to control this one, well maybe they did learn and wanted a rebellion) was the same weak ruler who became uncontrollable. The bad times make strong people, who make good times. The the good times make weak people, who make bad times. And the cycle continues. I think Littlefinger Varys and Pycelle worked together far more than we think, how else did they stay in their positions for so long. 'Serving a new king' 'Long may he reign' ;)

[@BurkeanMama]

Varys doesn't want peace. Varys wants to overthrow the usurpers and make Aegon King. So Varys is clearly whispering, let Joffrey rule. It is good for Varys ultimate plans that everyone see Joffrey as a terrible King. Pycelle may just have been too old to handle the combination of Joffrey's crazy and Varys' scheming.

[@johngo3715]

This is probably similar to what Littlefinger thought too. The more chaos in the kingdom, the more he can scheme.

[@prometeya3700]

I have to say it. Tyrion was on a power trip as soon as Tywin gave him that title. Like the things he does were for his own gratification rather than an actual attempt at stabilizing the crown. Like he didn't care, really.

[@jschoma11]

I'm not sure I agree. I think he finally felt he had a chance to make his father/family proud. He could use his intelligence in a meaningful way, at last. He never really had a purpose before, and so he just drank and whored.

[@rodneyharvey3341]

As hand Tyrion done a greater good...he seized the pyromancer's wildfire from cersai...defended the blackwater...kept joffry distracted... everyone feared the king's own uncle imp...the demon monkey

[@jschoma11]

@@rodneyharvey3341 for real, tyrion saved kings landing without proper credit..the last person who did that was his big bro Jaime

[@prometeya3700]

@@rodneyharvey3341 I'm not saying he didn't do these things. I simply believe that half of him did it to save the city and form a better plan, and another half of him did it to one up cersei. It's certainly not a non-factor. Not to mention that it's the only thing he did aside from getting rid of Slynt and that's because everyone in KL would die otherwise XD

[@prometeya3700]

@@jschoma11 it's not like he stopped doing those when he got power lmao. In fact, one of Tywin's conditions were to leave Shae. And he didn't do it despite his desire to "make his father proud". His drinking and whoring is what got him in trouble, actually.

[@peacecorenathan556]

I legitimately believe that with the amount of moving pieces and different machinations of the Baratheon royal court, Joffrey seems like the perfect catspaw to the ends of anyone else’s schemes Varys and the Mummer’s Dragon Baelish and the Kingdom of Ashes Tywin and Cersei for their own dynasty’s ends Stannis and Renly for their dynasty’s ends Any and all of them have so many different ends they wish to achieve but he’s the best case scenario for all of their work

[@peaceandloveusa6656]

I haven't read the books, but in the shows, everyone had to be aged up so they could do plot-related sex scenes with some of the younger characters, and this required them to age *everyone* up so the timelines still worked. So, in the show at least, Joffrey would have been of ruling age or close enough to it that his word would have held a lot of weight. (Who wants to make an enemy of the King a week before he becomes King, even if it's not official yet?)

[@micahmcfadden8082]

U gotta remember the small counsel is full of enemies and incompetants who would oppose him besides renly

[@micahmcfadden8082]

Pycelle was a lanister lackey

[@EPYHDA1]

Catelyn might have seen through Joeffrey - she just did not care in her insatiable lust for power, displayed from very early age - I do not even want to contemplate the full creepiness of "wait for me, little Cat"

[@thisguy8106]

Also. I feel the same way about Bobby B making Jamie the Warden of the East and how Ned says Jamie is the heir to Casterly Rock.. Like..why? How?.. What about his kingsguard vow?.. It doesn't make sense to me.

[@ivanmp3e48]

Ned believed Tywin wouldn't just let Tyrion be the heir to Casterly Rock and would try to get Jaime out of the KG

[@thisguy8106]

@@ivanmp3e48 but at this time there wasn't a precedent set. And him and the king just so casually talked about something that had never ever happened throughout history.. lol. And they knew Tywin had a 2nd son... Jamie being heir should have never been a thing for Ned. And he Def shouldn't have been Warden of the East..

[@ceilingfanenthusiast6041]

@@thisguy8106 tbh... he's Tywin Lannister. What was Robert going to do if Tywin demanded he released Jaime from the Kingsgaurd? Imo Tywin can basically do anything he wants. His grandson is going to be king in a couple of years anyways and what does Robert care about Jaimes oaths? He's not going to resist Tywin over something like that. Idk if this is a show only line, but the country owes millions to Tywin Lannister.

[@thisguy8106]

@@ceilingfanenthusiast6041 Super solid points.

[@alexturlais8558]

To be fair, Robert establishing a new dynasty is also unprecedented, so him taking on the Targaryen Kingsguard was also unprecedented. Maybe Tywin would argue the oath was to the Targaryens, so it doesn't count, and Robert wouldn't argue.

[@warlorddavid8290]

So I may be incorrect about this but watching your video about Joffrey, I do have a theory of why he was ruling. And it has to do about Royal precedence when going back through the lineage of kings of Westeros. You see the last regency was King Aegon the third, which was an unmitigated disaster. Aegon's son Daeron didn't have a regent, Viserys acted as Royal protector and advisor to the king. But Viserys wasn't a regent in the proper sense, as Dearon for the most part ruled or had to say in most major decisions. It should be remembered that one of those decisions was to start a major war, the so-called conquest of Dorne. It seems like from a legal point of view which is iffy in medieval times, King Aegon the third abolished most of the power of a regency. It's also worth noting that the region's proceeding Aegon the third, was King Jaeherys. Jaeherys had a say in the realm from day one, outright rebelling and resisting his regency. Picking his own marriage, kings guard and in many ways seat of power and governance. So the precedent was already well established that the king would have some say in the governance of the realm, with also Cersei being a woman her say was lessened by gender alone. The second problem is that Cersei being the fool that she is tore up the legal paper establishing the regency, so legally speaking one could say there was no regency. You both mention this throughout your video so it's not anything new, however, for King Joffrey, this increased his already immense power in the capital. When Tyrion showed up he more or less just used the power of hand as established without a regency. Any attempt to establish a regency was blocked by Cersei and Pycelle. A regency, therefore, was almost impossible to establish before Tywin arrived. Tywin establish the regency off of three concepts, head of the Lannister house (so seniority over Cersei and Tyrion), head of the armies loyal to the king (commanding chief/ commander of armed forces), and being the official hand of the king (basically head a government). These three concepts combined basically give him the ad hoc powers of King anyways. Whether Joffrey was a child or not Tywin would have ruled. It's actually a good thing for the realm that Joffrey was so young. Had Joffrey been the age that he wasn't a show, he may have realized the power he wielded and the realm would have suffered greater than it did. I'd be open to discussing this more with you if you want, Best wishes love your channel. best wishes Warlorddavid

[@EPYHDA1]

"The Man the Iron Mask"-ing of Joeffrey in favour of Tommen was precisely the plan Bron suggested to Tyrion

[@ivanbluecool]

I just see it with the view of power with how joffery and cersie assume power and the people just follow along because of the fear with all the babies being killed and Sansa giving cersie the warning to get Ned's men killed so Ned has no way to back up his power. Plus tywin was busy dealing with a war like how Rob left Jaime with edmure but cat still went against his word because Rob was gone. Like Jaime's uncle from his aunt Jenna's marriage thinking his parchment made him ruler but nobody believed it. Cersie did say that the beheading of Ned happened so suddenly that it was too late to act so it made sense it happened so quickly Basically varys speech about where power lies is how joffery took control and they already showed they can kill kids and even the king's regent Ned would scare anyone. Though I think George had plans to have joffery be older as the original story had Sansa have children so perhaps we could have seen joffery much older in the story instead

[@a.j.stringfellow8989]

My opinion it was Cersei’s blunder. Until Tywin came, Joff was doing what Cersei wanted which was complete chaos with her sitting at the top watching. If anyone in the small council opposed Cersei they knew war was coming

[@nichoalsmith7712]

Joffrey gives me the chills even as a child.

[@drfaisalkamal1275]

Yep

[@trethornton1709]

His kingsguard enabled him which Jaime corrected when he got there. Protect the king from himself. Jahaery's kingsguard protected him physically but he had no right to rule. Small council is also filled with enablers: Cersei- new found taste of power after living with a drunkard husband, Littlefinger- chaos, Varys- Joff makes Aegon look like a god, Pycelle- more prone to staying on the small council was more important to him than correct governance, Tyrion spent more time planning the defense of kingslanding and playing the game with cersei and hiding Shae

[@Helloitsmeokay]

I swear I’m starting to look forward to Monday now 😀.

[@PassivesAbseits]

Is there anyone on the Small Council, that works "for the good of the realm"? Aren't they all there for selfish reasons? Varys wants to prepare the realm for an Dragon Invasion, so a weak, mad King is good for him. Littlefinger works own his own ascension. To him, getting Harrenhal matters more, then saving the Realm from an insane ruler... Tyrion spends half his time as Hand fighting his own sister. It is amazing how Tyrion believes, that he is good at this, when he wastes so much energy on fighting his own family and banging Shae... Cersei... well is just Cersei. We don't have a POV chapter during this time, but she is probably already working on fulfilling that Maggy the Frog Prophecy... Pycelle gets thrown into the Dark Cells and never recovers. Since Tyrion is also focused on cutting down Lennister Allies instead of using them. And... that's it. That is Joffreys entire small council. The ones that should focus on raising him to become a decent King, fight each other instead. The rest profits from an insane King.

[@mysteryjunkie9808]

His reign was doomed before it had even began?

[@carmensavu5122]

I bend the knee to you, Lord and Lady Green Hand. Your takes are so viciously on point, it's an absolute delight to listen to your podcasts.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

aww thank you !

[@1275spiderman]

Great video as always guys. I’m gonna watch it a couple more times..

[@RevealTheStyle]

Answer to video’s question: because Cersey is a discouraged feminist somewhere deep inside. All her memories from childhood are stricken with envy to her brother - she wanted to be do the same things, but she had got *Tywin* as her father. Seems like he was extremely strict and “traditional” in his parenting. He explained Cersey where her place is. She’s was doing so many things in her life “to rebel” against that father’s will… and Joffrey - probably he scared her in some strange way similarly to how Tywin did. And she obeyed… Joffrey was sick, but he was very wilful! And in addition to that, just as you’ve mentioned - he has natural talent in “putting on a pretty face” as phsychopats often do. Explosive combination of circumstances, and it is worth being discussed in your amazing podcast! Order of the Green Hand - you are on top as always 💪🏻😎

[@rahsaannelson2157]

On the show, Joffrey was older.

[@aaronbaron3155]

It's a plot device. There's no way he could have been as evil if he was curtailed by a regent. Plus it's a plot hole because George retconned the whole thing later making regency a thing bit he couldn't change book 1... so he just said fuck it and left it. But there's no way that Geoffrey was the reason Ned died. That was all little finger and his men. It still passes me off that the kid was allowed such power. So yeah I had issues like yall with the whole thing.

[@antjestube8774]

I agree. If Ilyn Payne did not hesitate, then I would think he was expecting it - and a plan like that looks like someone had his little finger in that pie...

[@sleekoduck]

Update: Tywin was the one who arranged the marriage between Joff and Margaery. Maybe there was an understanding that the Tyrells would solve the Joffrey problem so Tommen could take his place. When the Targaryens were overthrown, Westeros was run by amateurs. Just about every generation had some kind of Blackfyre rebellion and that one finally succeeded. One generation later, they got Joffrey.

[@Vortexnicholas]

You can thank cersei for that recklessness, tyrion said (not the exact quote) its hard to discipline a dog once you put a crown on its head. she gave him all that control but couldnt take it back .

[@jschoma11]

Tywin should have "Arianned" him and left him in a room with some books.

[@mheyer5353]

Tywin sent Tyrion to contend with Joffrey as hand so that he could remove them both after everyone saw how they behaved together

[@lollygameables4667]

I have a sort of theory, sorry if it doesn't make sense at first, but here go's - Robert took the throne after the overthrow of the Mad King, yet his hold was based on him being someone you didn't want to mess with backed by friends you also did not want to mess with, in other words, tenuis. Yes, Cercei could have sat the throne, but she was fairly hated and the small council would have known that there would have been anything from grumblings to a full-blown outcry to go after the Lanisters, especially after Ned lost his head so soon after the Kind passed. These were the two main heroes of the war, after all. Lannisters have deep pockets, and Tywin may be respected/feared for his ferocity, but no Lannister is actually popular. Their only grip on that throne is through the kids, which is why they let Joffrey sit the throne and look the part, but all the while they did try to control him, the power behind the throne, as it were. Somehow I think they must have thought that given his age that they could use him as a puppet rather than anyone taking on the mantle themselves. It speaks to cowardice, more than anything. Ned was willing to take the mantle, Robert was willing to as well, although he ignored it for the most part, but after they were gone, nobody was willing to stand up and say 'The buck will stop with me.', instead they seemed all to willing to play with the power while hiding behind a child. Just a thought.

[@micahmcfadden8082]

Ive been MIA gotta catch up on you guys thank you for all the content 🙏🏼

[@jaybees5734]

Jeffrey learned to rule from King Robert, Bobby B would always say "I'm the king I get what I want"

[@Outlaw8908]

Well if I recall some of the lore… Jaehaerys had a regent, Aegon III had a ton of regents and a colossal amount of political chaos, Daeron I if I recall did not have a regency as his Uncle and hand Viserys did not want a repeat of the fiasco. So perhaps they went with the more recent precedent, or they didn’t because Cersei was a walking disaster herself. Which means you have a runaway power vacuum, which Joffrey fills on occasion. By being terrible. So yes it is on Cersei as she did not exercise that authority or flex that position.

[@thisguy8106]

Great damn question!!!!

[@ellen9575]

Loving the podcasts!

[@deathdeathington]

It may have something to do with that document that Robert and Ned made being destroyed be Cersei. It was a legal document granting Ned the regency. Without the deed there's no direct message from Robert entitling anyone with the powers of regency. So the Lannisters just did with Joffrey what they always did with Robert, let him do what he wanted while they ran things from the small council.

[@lenski8306]

My simple theory as to why he could begin to rule was due to the lack of members in the High Council after the death of Robert. With the Baratheon brothers gone to become kings there was only : Varys who wanted the Lannister to be hated in order to make the Targaryen or Blackfyre (depending on your theories) return. Pycelle who wanted Jeffrey to be hated and replaced by Tommen under the authority of Tywin. Baelish who only wants chaos for whatever reasons The High Septon (i think) who had little to no authority Barristand The Bold, who was just following the "The king must rule if the High council is ok with this" So, most of the High Council wanted Joffrey to be the worst ruler possible and the other ones didn't care or couldn't do anything about it.

[@alexturlais8558]

Wasn't Cersei also made a Councillor? And we know what she would support.

[@lenski8306]

@@alexturlais8558 Well technically she should be the one ruling as Queen Regent but yeah, she was too stupid to understand how much this son of her was a threat to the Realm

[@astrinymris9953]

You know, when I first read AGOT and ACOK the universe hadn't been fleshed out yet, so I didn't question Joffrey ruling directly, and never re-examined it in light of later info. But now that you mention it, why DID they let Joffrey act as king so early? Varys wanted a mess so that his Targaryen restoration would go smoothly, and Petyr Baelish wanted some more chaos to use as a ladder, but what's Cersei's motivation? She'd always wanted to rule; and now she's got her chance. Pycelle is a Lannister booster, and he certainly tried to stop Cersei from undoing Maegor's Laws. Tyrion may not like much of his family, but he was loyal to it. So... why not muzzle Joffrey? The only thing I can think of is that Tywin somehow indicated that he wanted Joffrey treated as king already in the public eye, and Cersei and Tyrion were too much in awe of Tywin to second guess him. Maybe Tywin hadn't spent enough time with Joffrey to take his measure, and thought it would be good optics to have him appear to be a capable ruler at thirteen. After all, Tywin was a more capable ruler than his father when *he* was thirteen, so why would his grandson be any different? Maybe he thought Cersei and Pycelle had more control of Joffrey than was actually the case. Tywin does have a blind spot where his family is involved, at least the non-dwarf ones. I don't think Tywin had a pre-existing plan to let Joffrey crash and burn so the people would welcome Tommen. That's a motive which makes sense for Varys, but there's no advantage in it for Tywin, because Tommen is Joffrey's natural successor, so the people don't need to be "sold" on him. The better solution from Tywin's perspective would be to somehow dispose of Joffrey before Robert's death if he'd already recognized Joffrey as a psychopath. Mind you, it's possible that Cersei's murder of Robert messed up his timeline, but in that case you'd expect him to order Joffrey sidelined while his regent ruled in his name. It's also possible that GRRM hadn't decided on 16 as the Westerosi age of legal adulthood yet when the first two books were written. In the second Catelyn chapter of AGOT when Jon's taking the black is discussed, Ned is upset at Jon taking a binding oath before he's experienced life, but never says he's not a legal adult yet, so he can't join the Night Watch until he's sixteen. It's worth considering.

[@michaelprice6448]

Theory: Joffrey is such a well known psycho that everyone assumes whoever fisheye him will be exerted over he comes to power. So they just go along.

[@tylerbarrett6652]

There was a precedent set by Daren the Dragon Knight who began ruling at 14.... of course, he died at 18, but apparently he had no regent.

[@cdub4626]

Kings that had there power limited at the beginning were limited by councils before they are crowned. Cersei didn't have time for that because she had to make her move before Ned so that never happened.

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks guys. Just started but he was crowned not ruling he had a regent his mother.

[@antoinerigaud_]

They said that Joffrey is 17 in season 2 so maybe in season 4 he is like 18 so Cersei can’t be Queen Regent anymore

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

He’s 12 when the book series begins

[@antoinerigaud_]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand i know I only have an explanation from the show not the books

[@EPYHDA1]

I think Captain Valar, who disappeared from the story at the the time of the second book, could tell a thing or two about how the coup was planned, what went wrong, and how Joeffrey ended up ruling.

[@charlie9818]

Joffrey would have been allowed to execute Ned because in Cerci’s mind he was one day gonna rule the realm and if they challenged his first public order as king making his future rule potentially very turbulent and full of issues because he would have been undermined. But after Ned’s excursion Jeoffrey would not be able to rule.

[@nichrader8773]

Pycelle called Jeffery the noblest boy king that the gods ever graced them with, and they ALL had a big thing with kinslaying, so I thought that Tywin actually thought he could teach Joffery.. that was just MY thought, though..

[@shaunpoore2356]

Ned was named regent. I always assumed Joffrey was crowned to squash that. Cersei is nuts and didn’t care. And she was the only person to be regent until Tywin arrived. At which point…. Tywin can’t name himself as regent as KL kind-of hates him from the whole sacking the city thing.

[@AlaskaBeary413]

Any underage king has had a regent. Joff being named king doesn’t negate him having a regent, as he’s 12. Tywin def could have named himself regent and was going to before Tyrion killed him. He told Cersei she was going to get married; he was getting rid of her to assume complete control himself. Her “new marriage” was in the works before Joff and Margery got married. They just didn’t know who… Tywin was about to take them all in hand.

[@jaipandey7142]

He was just a figure head like thing, who just sit on throne and bluff. Same with Robert and Tommen.

[@bobvila6055]

Cersei being a terrible regent pretty much explains this. She allows her son to get away with everything, I I think I remember her saying something like, "what can I do?" after discussing how terrible Joffrey was with someone. You can rule, that's what, and bring that boy to heel. She thinks she wants to rule so badly, but for some reason she doesn't. After Tywin dies she thinks she can finally truly rule now that Tommen is king and her father is gone, but why couldn't she have ruled during Clash?

[@TraciPeteyforlife]

Joffery was insane an Cersei let him do what ever he wanted. An never knew how to put the boy in his place

[@EPYHDA1]

The coup organized by Cersei was a masterpiece of planning - to the extend that Barristan was the only feeble protest against the regency assignment dismissal, Renly, no intellectual giant, figured out that the coup happened before Robert was dead, Baelish inform Ned almost in clear text, the gates were sealed almost immediately, (the only iffy thing was the actual killing of Robert - it was far from certain, and I did post somewhere, I think on Grey Area's channel, a corresponding passage from La Reigne Margot, where the king was almost killed by a boar, in much more favourable (for the boar) circumstances, and it still did not work). The execution was haphazard at best - they did not even manage to apprehend Arya, and Joeffrey ruling is the prime example of what Baelish told Sansa "Cersei does not know what to do with power", and Varys and Baelish cooperated to assist her to ruin the realm with her disaster of a son

[@GeekSensei]

Tywin was named regent. But Tywin was nowhere around until the battle of blackwater. In the show, Cersei is the regent, but she is regent of nothing really, Tywin is the real boss. Besides, Joffrey was older in the show

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Tywin was named hand. Cersei is the regent

[@GeekSensei]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand yaay you answered me ✨ btw, the young dragon didnt have a regent and he was 14, I guess 🤔 thats another precedent

[@shanenolan8252]

You may be thinking of kevan Lannister he replaces cercie as regent

[@theinvisiblewoman6783]

I’m glad you guys are covering this. I was thinking about this today relistening to Game of Thrones on audiobook. It was such a huge deal Aegon the third for example couldn’t rule in his own right. So why can Jeoffery?

[@jschoma11]

Cersei knew Joffrey being Robert's son was her key to staying in power. She knew he was a shit, but what's she going to do? She knew she was losing control of him, but by that point they were at war and Joffrey's issues took a backseat.

[@mysticdragonwolf89]

I think I know the reason why Cersei and the Counsel didn’t enact a Regency or take power from Joffrey Cause there was a Regency ordered by Robert - and Cersei tore that up. By tearing up that paper, she took away any possibility of anyone else holding the powers of a Regent. The power of Regent was dead, she meant to stop Ned Regency but in doing so, destroyed any chance of her holding it as well. Sure she was queen regent in name after - but if she, the dowager queen can refuse to acknowledge the order of a dead king, the Hand Regent by order of King Robert, anyone could. By refusing the Hand Regency she created a power vacuum one that Joffrey stepped in and claimed by taking Ned’s head. In that moment - no one was safe not even the dowager queen there after - as Tyrion would remark he was Areys III as Areys the II would execute anyone for the smallest slight, real or imagined. Power is power, a stupid woman once said. Yes it is, but when you have control of it. Lose control, it will become wild fire and explode, till only one thing can stop it, suffocation. And as we all know…that was indeed how that wild fire was put out at the Purple Wedding

[@dominiccastello5937]

They needed a stable figure in that possion, not a kid waiting to be king. Multiple people making claims to the throne, they needed him in that possition with comple authority

[@josephradley3160]

Daeron I ruled without a regent. Not exactly a successful reign. Jaeherys I had voice in council in the begining. The opposite of what Joffrey is doing.

[@jawadkazmi5327]

The one to blame is the neck Beard himself. GRR Martin. Just a case of plot armour and bady writing?

[@mysteryjunkie9808]

It’s hard to put a dog in a leash after you put a crown on his head

[@Baratheon.]

The same reason why Tywin rules as de facto Lord of the 7 Kingdoms. like when she says "I am QUEEN REGENT not some brood mare" (this might be show only?) and she gets shot down like it's nothing, because power is power. Tywin commands the Lannister armies. All her power derives from him. her word probably gets got less weight because she's a woman too. Also i'm sure she says she didn't want to undermine him (Joffrey) when he made a ruling, and she did try to stop Stark's beheading but Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne acted too quickly, i'm pretty sure they were told beforehand that this was going to go down.

[@johngo3715]

Maybe Cersei and the council thought they couldn't use the regency rule because she didn't respect it when Ned presented it.

[@Brostrodamus92]

I wish yall, Preston Jacob's and Lucifer Lightbringer would do a video or podcast discussing theories and lore. Yall are awesome and enjoy watching yalls videos.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

oh gods not PJ they don’t need that kind of negativity in their lives

[@Brostrodamus92]

@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 I guess I'm confused, cause I know that there is some disconnect between some of the big ASoIaF KZbinrs but I don't know what.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

@@Brostrodamus92 Dont know if there’s something between them, I just strongly dislike the attitude of that person, cant stand them

[@Armaniche]

Cersei just didn't have control over Joff. I mean, probably Robert was the only one who could control him, simply for the fact that he was huge and scary... well and Tywin... but let's face it, he is even scarier.

[@permiebird937]

The rest of the counsel beyond Pycelle and Cersie, may have reasons to let Joff do his worst. Varys is making the way for fAegon, letting Joff make a mess of it only makes the realm ready for fAegon. Little Finger is probably behind Ned's execution. Janos Slynt was Little Finger's creature, and Little Finger had all sorts of reason to get rid of Ned.

[@Deadxman616]

The council was consisted varies, littlefinger and bunch of lickspittles

[@bradwolf07]

I honestly hadn't thought too hard about why Joffrey was being allowed to rule on his own instead of a regent doing it for him until he came of age. But now that you mention it, It really doesn't make sense. Unless they have wanted to pull a Meagor and the Old King move. Now I've come around to your thoughts on Meagor , but the small folk did see him as The Cruel and his nephew as the breath of fresh air. If you are right, why would Pycelle, the Tywin Fan Boy beyond all others, allow Joffrey to make the Lannisters so awful? Wnd Tywin didn't suffer fools (not since his father died), so why didn't Tywin yank his A** off the throne? It must have been because they underestimated how much damage the kid would do. Which would also explain why Tywin would agree to have his monstrous grandson killed (assuming that theory was true as well). I mean Joffrey was SO BAD, Tywin actually acknowledged Tyrion as his son and basically asked for his help (though in a thoroughly Tywin way).

[@AwakeAtTheWheel]

Spot on as always!🍻😎

[@heiligebimbam3073]

Tywin should have taken control.

[@brittanysorgen5884]

I was thinking everyone let him rule because they thought it would be easier to manipulate and disregard joffrey rather than psycho cersei or actually allowing Ned to rule as Robert intended. Boy were they wrong!

[@akiramado9198]

Very charming is pretty textbook psycho too

[@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682]

To me Cersei complicated matters by brushing away Robert's proclamation that Ned was regent or Lord Protector by saying "we have a new king". The statement implies that Joffrey not Robert's willl is the one that matters which strongly implies Joffrey as a reigning king (had to be done otherwise all lawful rested with Ned). Cersei seems to understand how this compromise her position in the eyes of the court as from the point of Ned's arrest up until his execution all major decisions are being made by Cersei at the head of the Small Council behind closed doors. Ned's execution could actually be seen as a successful power play by Joffrey. It publically asserts his authority and Cersei can't do anything about it. After all she wants her boy to rule for real one day and being publically outed as a momma's boy/puppet would severely undermine him in that. So in the current context we have a regent but the last one was publically executed by order of the king whose will was dubbed more important than the final commands his predecessor. Yeah Joffrey's semi officially power sharing with his Mom. I think you're right about this being Littlefinger putting the notion of executing Ned to Jofffrey as I can't see Joffrey appreciating all that context.

[@ismata3274]

So Tywin was pulling a Baron Vladimir Harkonnen?

[@peteperkins3859]

The reason the grownups didn't stop Joffrey is they didn't really have a problem with what he was doing.

[@MaynardCrow]

Mommy spoiled him and never told him no. She was a bad regent and still would have been even if she used the opportunity exclusively for her own power.

[@samuelbattershell3413]

I think Joffery was ruling because GRR Martin didn't have the idea of a Recency president when he wrote A Clash of Kings

[@datsweetsansabooty]

I think Varys was actually going to intercept Ned and try to restore aegon to the throne as I think Aegon is actually lyana’s son. So he would have Robb stand down and flee to the free cities to be one of his advisors.

[@wizardvrse7338]

I kind of don’t know why it’s so perplexing to you guys. Not in any offensive way, I enjoy your guys’ usually unique takes on things. But it basically boils down to the power structure in Kings Landing at the time. Cersei knew that when Robert died, they were going to have a fight on their hands from at least a couple different sides. The Starks were already making moves against them (Catelyn had taken Tyrion). There was more than enough reason to believe Stannis was going to move against them. And Renly was already trying to depose Cersei for a while in league with the Tyrell schemes. After Ned is beheaded there is literally no one above Cersei and Joffrey. They moved immediately because they knew that if they kept it in question, it would fuel the people against them with more time to try and prove that he wasn’t worthy of being King. What you’re really seeing IS Cersei ruling. Joffrey takes care of things here and there, but small council meetings, envoys, etc. is essentially on Cersei in the name of Joffrey. And we already know how badly Cersei actually runs things. Keep in mind Cersei could have absolutely stopped Joffrey from killing Ned, but at the time she just didn’t think it would be “good press” to directly dispute the king, and the “fools did as he said”. I believe this would have been the case at any point in time where there wasn’t a clear division of King and Regent. I honestly think if Joffrey was ruling in his own rite, he would have actually been killed A LOT sooner than he even was. Joffrey never made any big decisions in Kings Landing during his kingship, except the debacle with Ness execution, which honestly speaks more to Cersei’s bad judgment and weakness at ruling. If you look at the Regency of Aegon III and Jahaerys, it looks similar. They are the figure heads and kings so they get blamed for a lot, and they make some pretty important decisions concerning themselves, however they are not actually “ruling the realm”.

[@stephiefox6704]

I don't believe Joffrey killed the cat to torture it. His dad was a hunter and cared about hunting more than his own kids. I truly believe Joff was trying to bring the babies to make his dad proud when he was little.

[@draphix1]

Wait, you are psychologist by trade?!? Please give us your analysis of characters from that point of view, if it is on point with real life and what to expect in the future

[@micahmcfadden8082]

He only ruled when tywin wasnt around honestly. Also little finger told joffery illyn and slynt to kill Ned that was the answer to the riddle varys told tyrion

[@joannecassell8825]

Cercei put him there thinking she would rule. She really screwed up when she could rule as regent for Tommen. If she was as smart as she thought she was...

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

It shows how far the seven kingdoms has fallen

[@jawadkazmi5327]

6:19 this exactly, Tywin would do that to Joffery

[@GiordanoBruno42]

Joffrey might be a boy but he is the king after all. I think it comes down to the temperament of the child and their parents, with Joffrey he has parents who will defend his decisions and he has an attitude that everybody he meets should serve him. Compare that to a meek child who lets their parents manage them and their behaviour, they would not be listened to by the courtiers