Game talk - How I peacefully debate games

[@GamesTwiceOver]

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[@grilledcheesinator55]

This guy is Fallout Jesus

[@apolloknight9521]

He is The Fallout Jesus *bows down*

[@smolpener7430]

Subjectivity itself is an appeal to ignorance.

[@Knightosaurus]

You remember “hate the sin, love the sinner”? Hate the game, love the player. You can say whatever you like about a piece of media, just make sure that it doesn’t devolve into ad hominin and pointless insults (with very specific exceptions related to things like being a PDF file or other such “unsavory” reasons). Edit: to use an example - if you like something because it feeds into elements of you that are, let’s face, ethically/morally repulsive, then the gloves come off, because the enjoyment of the media has now breached its way into larger concerns, which, if not caught and roadblocked, could end in some very, very badly.

[@mr-fatji1491]

You're not a real fallout fan if you don't hate a game and hate someone more for liking it.

[@zhop951]

Hate is a strong word no matter what you're hating. If you truly hated the game then there'd be no point in arguing over it. Arguments over games happen because people love them and want them to be better, that or they love arguing. Also I never liked the idea of "hate the sin, love the sinner" because it implies that a person is separate from their actions, while I believe we are defined by our actions. I am the things I've done, the mistakes I've made and the corrections I've made to avoid them in future.

[@KingofFreaks]

@@zhop951To be fair. I hate the game and the player. The game is bad, barley anything good about it yet, the only reason people play it is either “it’s newer” or some sheep refuses to shut up about how the game is “actually good.” Then you go back find nothing feel the same disappointment and feel stupid because you knew what your getting into and the only reason you did was that to try and understand why a bunch a sheep are still recommending this shitty fucking game. I fucking fallout 4 fans if couldn’t tell.😅

[@KingofFreaks]

“Saying this game sucks isn’t just harsh language,it’s also making an objective claim” Exactly and least we can back those opinions up with facts. Because if you don’t you look stupid or that you didn’t have one. It’s makes the other guy madder because he really doesn’t understand and he thinks you just don’t really care.

[@scarface406]

Guy is the Dave filoni of fallout

[@Ky-Nas]

The whole message here seems to be "avoid writing in the style of a persuasive essay" and I _fully agree_ with that sentiment. English and Journalism classes have a real problem with "non-committal" wording in persuasive writing and I've always found that baffling seeing as being respectful of opposing viewpoints encourages people to pay more attention to your own, as you've stated here. It's the same reason those _very same classes_ tell you to avoid 'strawman arguments' using phrasing that attacks anyone who disagrees with you will only encourage them to either ignore you or lash out at you. So that being said, I have genuinely no idea why in writing that is supposed to be _persuasive_ you're encouraged to write in a way that pushes people away; it's like they're setting folks up for failure on purpose. Anyway, really good advice! It all sounds pretty obvious when you break it down but being respectful encourages others to treat you the same way, which in this specific instance results in peaceful and friendly debates. :D

[@KingofFreaks]

@Ky-nas She says as writes a paragraph like college essay.

[@OvercastSpy]

Logic. Straight up Logic.

[@KingofFreaks]

Thanks 😊

[@CatsWithMachineGuns]

This CristianWittaker-bv9nv guy in the comments is having an aneurysm Bro is half of the comments on this video alone. He thinks he's the protagonist. lol

[@KingofFreaks]

Yeah, because I feel like I’m taking to bunch a sheep.

[@Ky-Nas]

Fella really said "allow me to demonstrate what _not_ to do" Every single comment they've left is so _comedically unpersuasive_ that I'm genuinely uncertain if it's sincere or a questionable attempt at satire. It's like an overly verbose version of responding to an argument with "NUH UH! STUPID!" and I can't help but to find that at least a _little bit funny._

[@KingofFreaks]

@@Ky-Nas Well. You got a good reason? Or you just gonna go to an echo chamber?

[@Ky-Nas]

​@@KingofFreaks Why would I bother giving you an explanation when you can't be fucked to give a solid explanation for any of your points? You didn't justify any of the arguments that you've made beyond "I disagree and you should agree with me" You just repeated your point multiple times over in slightly different phrasing while being comedically over-aggressive with your wording. The only legs any of your arguments has to stand on is "I don't care." which doesn't really convince anyone into sharing your sentiment. You're just stating your opinions, not really making any effort to justify them or be remotely persuasive.

[@theghostfacekza4549]

Holy cow, this comment sent me down an unhinged rabbithole. It takes a special type of person to take a video on how to have productive, civil disagreements and turn it into "There is only 1 way and its MY way"

[@machinesnow]

if i hear "you aren't a true ____ fan" one more time ill go ballistic

[@grayman4951]

Part of the issue with a couple of the points you're proposing is how quickly it goes from merely being suggesting approach methods for a constructive discussion to implicitly arguing in favor of (regardless of you being conscious of it or not) methods that actually damage or prevent constructive discussion from occurring under the notion that it creates a more inclusive discussion space or to avoid anything approaching negativity, especially since you neglect to mention the negative excesses of what your implicitly arguing in favor of specifically and loosely describe them in positive fashion. In the section "Avoid harsh words". You partially mention that emotive, insulting language can be unproductive to a discussion, this much is true; but then you also engage in what can only be described as implicitly arguing for tone-policing as a legitimate part of discussion, and not cautioning against it for being the logical fallacy it is. Obviously presentation can be of varying importance to one's argumentation, but focusing too much on how someone is saying something, and arguing that it "taints" the content of one's argumentation, rather than the content of one's arguments by itself is, as previously mentioned, logically fallacious. Someone can use emotive, insulting language, and still be factually correct in what they're saying regardless of the perception others have. If someone dismisses what someone has to say on the basis that it merely contains emotive or insult language and nothing more, that it intellectual dishonesty on their part. In the section "Keep it subjective". You're approaching this from the wrong angle, discussions will necessarily have objective and subjective topics, it should instead serve the flow of conversation better to more appropriately distinguish the parts of a discussion that are subjective and objective, you partially mention this, but than argue that one should instead dispense or avoid talking about objectivity or objective topics altogether purely because it promotes inclusivity or plurality in discussion spaces. I partially agree with your section of "Respect opposing opinions", insofar as it comes to maintaining a flow of discussion. However, you damage the strength of your point in arguing that discussions about games can only contain subjective elements, this is simply untrue. Games have writing, mechanics, and systems, and many other aspects, all of which can be objectively demonstrated in some form or another.

[@themanagement3193]

Are you going to do a Fallout Talk for the TV show?

[@mr-fatji1491]

Youre not a real fallout fan unless you go on the internet telling people that they should be crucified for having a completely subjective and valid opininion that isnt the exast same as yours.

[@KingofFreaks]

@Mr.fatij No if you have a stupid reason. Come on man get it right.🙄😏

[@bingbongballer1398]

What if I'm the only whos right and everyone else is always wrong

[@theghostfacekza4549]

Ah then you are likely a twitter user

[@KingofFreaks]

@Zhop funny thing is I don’t even think I do.

[@madraccoon1455]

About keeping your statemenst subjective. It works if you wanna keep debate as peacefull as possible, but even in this debates you can bring objective statements about quality of the game. For example bugs, plot holes, poor game mechanics, game world where you can do nothing etc. That brings overall quality of the game on lower levels and you can argue about those things in the way of how much it ruins your expirience or doesn't bother you but they keep being problems in the game. Like in the Fallout franchise, Fallout New Vegas is one of my favorite games of all time, but game has problems and alot of them, graphics at that time already was outdated i liked overall visual style, but it doesn't exuse how poorly it was made, shooting system is terrible, many bugs even 14 years later, poorly made legion of Ceaser as a fraction you can join many times less quests, and for someone who would argue with me about FNV if he saids about this things that it dealbreaker for him i would argue that yeah graphics sucks, but visual style is cool, shooting system is bad but other game mechanics is top notch (exept charisma), bugs sucks even now i replay it and sometimes enemies would stuck in the rocks, infinite loading screen and game crushes and to that i have nothing exept game is worth it, and legion though has lesser quests it shows that it doesn't need that much help from the stranger like NCR and it helps the narrative that legion is very strong. What i trying to say is that if you having an arguement about some game you can and you need to use not only subjective parts "i like it" or "i don't like it" but a objective statements to, examples that i give, you can bring them in the negatives of the game or positives more importantly keeping the arguement civil.

[@zhop951]

I mean if you wanted to iron out many of the bugs, the Viva New Vegas mod guide is great, I've yet to have a crash with it. It's a bit of a pain to set up but once it's running it's a great platform for other mods, including Legion overhauls. Apparently there's a mod in Beta called Nova Arizona that fleshes out the east of the Colorado, I've not played it yet but it looks really cool. Now of course mods aren't base game, and the base game has *many* flaws, but mods are the way I enjoy NV.

[@KingofFreaks]

@@zhop951Zhop quit it with the damn mod support. That’s how Bethesda got in this decline to begin with. We don’t need to make it worse.

[@zhop951]

@@KingofFreaks I want the base games to be better, and for that reason I'm not getting Fallout 76 and holding off on getting FO4 on PC until it's cheaper, but there's not much that can/will be done for New Vegas except mod it. Besides even if the games were amazing in base game I'd *still* mod them for a new experience, I do it with Skyrim even though SE is perfectly stable.

[@KingofFreaks]

@zhop still no. Fallout NV unfortunately counts. The interest is what gave Bethesda the idea for the creation club. I imagine they could still go “well you mod New Vegas. So that justifies our laziness.” We can’t take that chance.

[@KingofFreaks]

@Zhop we’ll never get good Bethesda games again. If we keep letting them get away with it. Mods have left Bethesda lazy.

[@KingofFreaks]

“It should be obvious the the player is merely stating their objective opinion but, viewer of that opinion would take some offense on a subconscious level.” Translation: The guy said the game sucks and the other guy’s feeling got hurt over a video game. We’re adults games twice over you can handle it. It’s just a game.I love Fallout New Vegas as art but, I know it’s not real.

[@zhop951]

You do know adults are allowed to have feelings, right? We aren't machines who think logically all the time.

[@KingofFreaks]

@@zhop951 Yeah but, emotions can blind you to the truth which is why you need logic. Going just off of emotions never worked anyone.

[@KingofFreaks]

@@zhop951 besides your gonna tell me because somebody says that game sucks then they have an obligation to your feelings? I love New Vegas but, the game is janky and is ugly. And pretending that that’s not the case is a bold face lie. And continuing that lie just to please some child who can’t take mean words is just pathetic and doesn’t solve anything.

[@zhop951]

@@KingofFreaks I never said only go off of emotions, I simply said people have them, and it's important to consider them if you want to have a civil discussion. If you enjoy heated arguments then you can simply ignore all that.

[@KingofFreaks]

@@zhop951 Zhop Let me repeat. This is the internet. Nobody has an obligation to appeal to your feelings. Now unless you got a good reason, I don’t really care.

[@KingofFreaks]

Games twice over: Saying games “This game sucks” or “this character is trash” can see you as irrational. Me: ok, “This game is bad,” this game is terrible”, “this game is horrible.” You would you like me to continue telling you this game is bad and I don’t like it or you gonna tell me why I should have no individual thought as a consumer.

[@KingofFreaks]

“It’s already tainted by their prior word choice.” So I said your game was bad and I hurt your feelings? Cause that’s what I I’m hearing.

[@zhop951]

When you say "this game is bad," it's obvious that it is your opinion, in fact a lot of people may use that argument in response. The problem is saying it inherently leaves no room for their argument, it tells the other person you don't respect their opinion. If that's what you want to do, go for it, but don't expect a calm debate when respect isn't there.

[@KingofFreaks]

@@zhop951 If you gotta a good reason then say it. The reasons why it is should be the why your opinion has value. Like I said everybody has an opinion but, not all opinions are equal. If somebody calls you names just take it or don’t respond. It’s the internet and if some thinks it’s stupid they have a right to say it is.

[@KingofFreaks]

@@zhop951hell if you got a stupid opinion, why should I respect it?

[@zhop951]

@@KingofFreaks The point of this entire video is how *you* present your opinions in a debate *you* choose to be in. You can't control the other's actions, and walking away from a debate is an entirely valid option if the other is disrespecting you. Respect is a two-way street, if you show it to someone else, it's valid to expect it from others.

[@KingofFreaks]

So I guess the “You need to dump 18,000 hours on Starfield than it’s starts to get good” is valid somehow? I guess some opinions should be respected but, not all opinions are equal. Hell, one opinion is that the Soviet Union should be rebuilt. Should we respect that?