"Games as a service" is fraud.

[@Accursed_Farms]

I realize this is long and more boring than my usual stuff, but I encourage anyone interested to watch the ending 1:10:00

[@superzocker368]

It crashes at 1:09. Is that because I'm using Chrome? Do other browsers work?

[@superzocker368]

It works from 1:17 on again. I don't know what you said there, but that's how conspiracy theories start.

[@morpheus_uat]

yeah i got the 1:09 error too, srry ross im downloading and watching it offline

[@ajkarmela3635]

Also 9:32

[@bigsteamingpileof7722]

When it comes to your videos, length is a benefit not a downside. But there is a downside, video immediately crashes at 1:09 and 9:32. I'll check back in an hour or so.

[@gunnarsmits6413]

Note: I am writing this 25 minutes in. There was a recent class action lawsuit case against audible. The complaint was that once a user's subscription lapsed, they were denying the user access to audiobooks that they purchased. The class action lawsuit did not go well for Audible. I think that parallels could be drawn to games not being services

[@zydian_]

Interesting

[@tonyv3758]

Do you happen to know the name of the case or have a link to the opinion?

[@annabella1650]

That’s pretty interesting and hopefully will help for any future cases against a the likes of Blizzard or Sony.

[@tyrannosaurus_x]

I don't know what to make out of it since Audible lets you download ebooks you bought. Granted, you need their app to listen to them, but you have to download that also only once.

[@SuperSmashDolls]

@BiggieBoss That's like saying "Was it a green apple or a light/heavy one?" A case can be civil or criminal, and it can be state or federal. They are orthogonal. There are state civil courts, federal civil courts, state criminal courts, and federal criminal courts.

[@chavzone]

1:10:07 "This isn't some TED talk where I say something positive and then everybody acts like the problem is solved" PAINFULLY true.

[@eldenringer6466]

so true

[@OnetheAnonymous]

Facts🙌💯

[@ffejpsycho]

BAH!!!! I don't care..... PROBLEM SOLVED... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

[@ffejpsycho]

@Stix N' Stones if there is any other way to do it... i dont care to know it

[@ffejpsycho]

is not.. I've never even played postal...@Stix N' Stones

[@crazyinsane500]

"Turns out you had ownership rights all along, who knew?" This hit me harder than I thought it would. So many journalist outlets, even ones I trust, never want to bring up things like a person's legal recourse or rights, beyond speaking in broad strokes. I totally understand, legalese can be thick and hard to parse, but even when the correction is presented to these people they don't speak about it, and this just leads to an ignorant populace.

[@1337w334b00]

Corrections don't generate clicks

[@Infernal969]

"Game journalism" was, is and probably always will be a joke.

[@scionoics4865]

I'll tell you why they don't bring it up. The advertisers are their only source of income. They aren't working for you.

[@Infernal969]

@@scionoics4865 If they don't feel too inclined to find a balance between consumers' and advertisers' interests, maybe it's time to stop being the consumer and let them figure out how much the advertisers are willing to pay for no traffic. Maybe then we will stop seeing metacritic averages between "journalists" and gamers differ by at least 50. But that's not a strictly gaming journalism issue, while it's probably most glaring here. When the infamous articles 13 and 11 were being pushed through the EU almost all the major press companies that benefited from it kept downplaying the issues, saying "the new law is great and you are all being paranoid and brainwashed by US companies" with no actual arguments. Just pure misinformation and propaganda.

[@kozmic4276]

>Even ones I trust Oh you sweet summer child

[@humpadumpaa]

Super relevant right now that Blizzard released Warcraft 3 Reforged while enforcing an update to the original WC3 game that makes it impossible to play without being connected to Blizzard's servers. Retroactively making a game into a service seems pretty effed up to me.

[@darkcheaker]

They actually did even worse than I've imagined, I have an original CD of WC3, and I tried to play it, it requires internet connection to play on Windows 10. Holy shit. I'm glad piracy exists.

[@humpadumpaa]

@@darkcheaker Wtf, TIL

[@edgepixel8467]

alrightalrightalright Sue them

[@valentinom.4292]

@@darkcheaker Share a link to download W3 please

[@jardelelias5625]

@@darkcheaker Yep. I also have the original CD and went through the same situation. Blizzard lost their way.

[@MandaloreGaming]

We can only hope this practice gets locked down before stuff like Google Stadia comes out and makes it completely normal to a new generation. It's crazy there are people vehemently defending these practices like they're a fact of life and not 100% preventable with minimum effort.

[@supermot34]

It's already normal to the next generation, unfortunately. They grew up with this shit, they're heavily brainwashed and they weren't around back when games were actually good.

[@arthurwulfwhite8282]

Haha Money, money... money

[@Producadv]

fuck yea mandaloregaming my boy

[@simunator]

w/e doesn't affect me in the slightest. i stopped being a console peasant long ago and pc offers infinite freedom anyways. with halo coming to pc, osu, touhou, broodwar, wc3 and other free open source games, i can't lose as a core player. i dropped wow the moment blizzard cucked themselves and i know i can't lose a s long as i stay away from mainstream publishers /devs

[@advice-13]

@@simunator What the fuck are you even talking about.

[@LGR]

Ohh this gon' be gooood. *gets comfy*

[@aquilliusranger2137]

How was it?

[@LGR]

Excellent 👍

[@lilwyvern4]

@@LGR Any chance you'll chime in on your channel?

[@valkaerie8715]

Oh shit it's LGR

[@LGR]

If the right opportunity presents itself, absolutely. I've talked about similar things before on LGR for years. Most recently when Darkspore was killed.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Games as a service = "Selling a finite game service under a permanent license." The reason this is suspect is that, whether we decide that games are goods or services, the way games as services are sold is self contradictory: If it's a service, it can't be sold under a permanent license. If it's a good, it's functionality cannot be terminated by the seller. WoW wouldn't be a "game as a service" under this definition. It would be a game that happens to be a service. Finite service. Finite license. If the law straightens this out an decides that games are services, then there ought to be an obligation on the part of the developers to let the players know the limitations of their service, since as things stand, a permanent license is assumed whether it exists or not. If that happens, then at least people will know what they're paying for and be able to make the choice to only support games sold under the old model. If it turns out that games are goods, then games as services is fraud.

[@daylightknight6373]

This is a brilliant point. Push this up! (Like & comment)

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

@@daylightknight6373 Since such a large portion of the video was dedicated to trying to figure out the definition of games as a service, I immidiatly tried to distill it down to one sentence. Once I did, the problem with the practice because self evident. Like a teapot made of chocolate.

[@Yusuke_Denton]

B..B..BUT MAH EULAS!!!

[@MyLilPwny43]

Thanks for explaining what I assume this hour video was about so simply +1

[@petrus4]

@Locutus Borg The problem is that corporations want everything their own way. They will want the definition of a good if that serves them and screws us, and they will want the definition of a service if that serves them and screws us. The real problem is games publishing companies (NOT developers) consisting of psychopaths who view everyone else both as enemies and as fuel for exploitation for their own aggrandisement.

[@krux02]

I think it is the most painful for the developers. 1000s of hours of development time. Sleepless nights. Then the publisher shuts down the server because it isn't super popular anymore. That hurts.

[@KingOskar4]

As extra credits said: "It is already difficult for developers to see their game, their hard work being destroyed by their publisher"

[@omarhasan1465]

Gravity Rush 2 smh

[@GoldenBeans]

bringing back the creativity topic, i think it hurts creativity NOW instead of the other way arround who wants to put care and effort in something you know will be lost in obselete hell

[@valletas]

@@KingOskar4 yeah fuck extra credits they are the guys that defended loot boxes their opinions couldint be less irrelevant

[@snakekingblues3017]

@@valletas lol

[@almicc]

"You can simultaneously be FOR the circus coming to town, and AGAINST clowns stabbing people." *mind blown*

[@ffejpsycho]

not in my circus town, ya commie!

[@colindavies6463]

What if I like clowns that stab?

[@ArlanKels]

@@colindavies6463 That's when you make sure to hand out free knives.

[@ffejpsycho]

@@colindavies6463 id get my facepaint and setup a playdate!

[@almicc]

that is a lot of likes wow

[@straultzee]

People talk about small stuff restoring their faith in humanity, but this really does restore my faith. This man has passion, focus, and motivation and its infectious and inspiring

[@r-saint]

This video should be" #1 trending on Gaming"

[@leinadreign3510]

Agreed!

[@dermaniac5205]

It is #1 on reddit on /r/games

[@planescaped]

Well, actually hit the like button this time.

[@Darkstar_8473]

No it shouldn't. Days Gone or MK11 should be stop being an elitist.

[@r-saint]

@@Darkstar_8473 i don't care about those

[@InsidiousOne]

37:17 remember the time when multiplayer shooters came packaged with their own "dedicated server" software, so, basically, any kid could build his own server?

[@SharienGaming]

or when they came with a LAN option so you can make a lobby on a local network?

[@InsidiousOne]

@@SharienGaming also, if LAN multiplayer is available, you can always use Hamachi to play through the Internet.

[@thomasbriscoe7439]

@@InsidiousOne Fuck hamachi use game ranger

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

*TL:DW: An integral part of "games as a service" generally involves the lifespan of the game being finite, which means there comes a point where the game bricks and becomes useless. As any non-subscription game you buy is a perpetual license and not really a service under the law, the revocation of that product's functionality with no reasonable way for consumers to get their products working again is a form of fraud.* To rectify this, game companies should be legally obligated to modify their games once they've reached the end of their lifecycle and servers are shut down to, in some form or another, allow their game to be played by the people who bought it, such as by releasing the necessary code for people to build their own community servers, having or implementing some form of offline functionality so the product is still somewhat usable, or if they are unwilling to do this offering full refunds. (OR, potentially, defining a specific minimum date in the EULA when the game's servers are to be shut down with a guarentee the game will be maintained until that point)

[@Accursed_Farms]

If you don't want to watch the video, the bold part of this comment is probably the most concise summary of it I could come up with.

[@Tkthegreat14]

I do agree that if people want to continue playing a game they brought, having that be easier is a good thing. I'm personally the type who moves on whenever I choose to, but just because that is how I am doesn't mean I would want other to do the same. If you brought and played a game ten years ago, and still till this day are able to play and enjoy it. More power to you, that's pretty amazing.

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

Thanks! If you think it'd be a good idea, you have my permission to pin my comment, copy the bold part of this comment into your own pinned comment/the description of this video, or use it in any follow-up videos you make on this one as a summary.

[@r0bw00d]

*customers Video games are inedible.

[@Mir_Teiwaz]

@@r0bw00d Consuming something is not limited to eating.

[@UthersonL]

Game publishers hate him. He preserves games with this simple trick

[@kaarpiv375]

CLICK HERE ----->

[@proteus2103]

Yeah, logic and reason. Corporations' only weakness... reality.

[@tgreaux5027]

Rule of Law and logical reasoning isn't a trick lol

[@AAhmou]

Johnny Two Hands In this day and age, it may as well be. There are a lot of people who are dismissive to both.

[@foxyr4bbit]

this simple trick that takes 1.25 hours to explain

[@elliegray8184]

"Games as a service" was absolutely a term created by AAA industries as a marketing tactic. It isn't paranoid to say it is intentionally said to obfuscate terrible practices.

[@miersdelika5016]

Your mind is intact. Congratulations, you are now one of 100 people on this planet that seem to not be crazy.

[@KiraSlith]

@@miersdelika5016 I'd withhold that claim if I were you. Someone can be absolutely right in one case and facepalming stupid in another.

[@numo97]

source on your pfp please?

[@ierdan4257]

@Ellie Gray just by your avatar i get the feeling you say that because of personal experiences.... it is mistelstein from closers right ?

[@gajbooks]

It's derived from the more generic "Software as a Service" or SaaS, which is just a broader term for an equally fraudulent practice. It's getting even worse with cloud computing and Hardware as a Service. Soon, literally everything will be rented. Rental is just fraud in general.

[@Bacony_Cakes]

Imagine if Construction companies pulled this shit. Your house reaches 3 years old, and you wake up to see the builders hauling your roof away underneath a helicopter.

[@RealTallestSkil]

Or, like Trackmania, you wake up one day and your siding has been replaced with lower quality siding. It’s still siding. It’s still there. It just doesn’t look as good as it used to. They’re selling a new house across town that looks better, though. They say you can buy that if you like. Oh, and your basement has been filled in because they don’t want you to be able to invite a friend over to crash for a few days anymore.

[@peterhoulihan9766]

A less retarded comparison would be the construction company not maintaining and repairing your house for free for years while paying all the utilities. Keeping game servers running costs money, eventually the money you paid for that service will run out.

[@Bacony_Cakes]

@@RealTallestSkil In the new house, the windows are sold separately.

[@Isaacfess]

This comment and it's replies is why I love Ross and this channel.

[@awsomebot1]

You buy a house but the main support column is intentionally built out of weak materials by the company. They have to replace it for free every month, even though this ends up costing them more compared to the alternative. One day they stop showing up, and your house is in shambles. Smug twitter user yells "should've read the agreement".

[@obertone3242]

-Ross Rants- *Ross makes an retaliatory argument and declares legal warfare.*

[@cuspids7]

"This is more boring than my usual videos" [proceeds to make an interesting, articulate, and extremely in-depth and informative video]

[@handsomebrick]

The rant videos are always great.

[@lionocyborg6030]

A quote from a famous game you covered on Game Dungeon really rings true here: "For years there's been a conspiracy of plutocrats against ordinary people".

[@dyedie1]

Which game dungeon was that from?

[@shawnauman5680]

@@dyedie1 deus ex

[@xmm-cf5eg]

"Bleak" futures are just "The Future," not much distinction needed. Human nature at its finest.

[@lionocyborg6030]

*Does crunches on the floor* "Future! Future! Fuuuuture! Fuuuuuuuture!"

[@edstrandberg6520]

I wouldn’t put too much faith in the legal system. Not with its conservative tilt. Those Mofos bend over backwards protecting the interests of corporations.

[@JackFoxtrotEDM]

This is especially true now that The Crew is being shut down and taken away from us paying customers.

[@Asara-k7e]

I never bought The Crew but yes it's terrible. Once again, if you bought a game to me you own that copy.

[@baileyayyy5085]

stop giving money to live service games this came out 4 years ago and people still shovel money at them like their lives depend on it

[@l.3626]

idk, I think the best argument is the TOS tell u they can just shut it down and people should actually stop caring about the law and only take the TOS seriously, meaning if they would be sad if the game like the crew shuts down in the future then simply dont buy, if everybody had that mentality nobody would need any laws regarding the topic, but games as a serice would simply seize to exist, but as it seems usually companies are not shutting down healthy games, but games that are already dead, so the damage is really small. I guess its a risk people are willing to take, Im a more pro freedom guy and self accountability, idk how people constantly fall for bad games, but personally I run into none of those issues as I dont buy any of those games and tbh I wouldnt care if EA takes away my favourite battlefield 4, yes I would be sad but I got my fun out of it and almost nobody is playing it anymore

[@r-saint]

Actually most companies (EA) actually sue you if you try to repair their broken/bricked game. So it's even worse than you're saying.

[@JRyan56]

EA are scum.

[@fake12396]

yep. tabula rasa had a server emulator going and then they got C&D'd by the publisher. bricking games is one thing, but then actively going after them to ensure they stay bricked is straight up BS. (at least the city of heroes source got leaked, good for these assholes)

[@31stAzuredflame]

Definitely should be illegal to do that to buyers. It goes against moral standards for both consumers and businesses, EA are one of many who does the very thing you say @Raymond Saint but sometimes worse.

[@lpsoldin3162]

@@31stAzuredflame You might want to read up on recent DMCA changes if you're in the U.S. It paints it more clearly that when you are unable to run software you have purchased, your EULA and any other contracts are voided, giving you the right to get it working for your personal use again.

[@RollerDerbyHigh]

Yeah. Blizzard shut down classic wow servers which are trying to preserve the experience people originally paid for

[@munxcorp]

I also think it was worth mentioning how Steams EULA not only didnt stand up in court in Australia, but was actually used AGAINST Valve as evidence

[@skyroads-ob2gn]

Just want to let people know, that whenever threads or posts are made in the Valve Steam Discussions and Off-Topic forum bringing attention to the Australian High Court's case against Valve, or other software ownership laws, rulings, logic, etc, a certain Steam moderator, going by the title "Spawn of Totoro" deletes it, and if it's someone else's thread, they often delete the posts specific to showing those things, and then lock the thread with any other comments in it to create a false appearance of consensus in the thread. They've been engaging in this unscrupulous behaviour for a long time, and they even block anyone who tries to discuss it with them on their Steam profile page (despite them being a moderator who should be able to discuss community issues). I've brought this issue up with Steam support on numerous occasions, and they offer no explanation or justification for "Spawn of Totoro's" behaviour, but say they won't do anything about it. I have a sense that this practice of hiding consumer rights and laws from their customers violates consumer rights in some way, and I've told Steam support that I'm going to report this to consumer rights groups (such as those in countries which have taken action and had victories regarding these matters before).

[@skyroads-ob2gn]

​@Romano Coombs No problem. This issue is of huge importance for ownership rights everywhere - not just involving games. And it's important for fighting back against oligarchy / plutocracy / corporatocracy. I hope that people will share this information in the Steam forums whenever they get the chance, such as when they see somebody answering someone's comment or question by telling them that they don't own their games (which, unfortunately, I see people responding with from time to time). Here's "Spawn of Totoro"'s Steam profile: steamcommunity.com/id/SpawnOfTotoro There are some "Spawn of Totoro" sycophants on the Steam forums that try to deny and obscure the fact that people own their software, including Steam-bought software. My experience with them is that they likewise run from discussing the issue when they're messaged on their Steam community profile pages. "The Giving One" is one such sycophant who works hard to try to frustrate efforts to talk about the law on software ownership: steamcommunity.com/id/TheGivingOne

[@Marinealver]

Well it is not just games. Heck John Deer tried to do this by proprietary the tools needed to service them. You want your tractor fixed, you go through the "owners" which would be John Deer. That is the whole concept of the "service based industry" narrative of Consumer Captalisim. You don't own what you bought, you don't own your home, your life. You just pay money (often not by choice) to get access to what you bought.

[@skyroads-ob2gn]

So, why does this comment no longer appear in the Top Rated comments list?

[@MatthewScottH83]

"boy, printers are the games industry of the real world, huh?" - love it

[@brokengames9020]

Actually NVIDIA is too. Scam business of the century. You are confused what is scam business? You can find list of scam businesses on NYSE or your local SE.

[@xmm-cf5eg]

So are firearms, the RAS-47 is the EA of AK's. Springfield is the EA of firearms manufactuers... Uh, Century Arms is the shovelware of firearms importers. you could probably make a case for most companies being like EA. Oh, Remington too, those guys haven't built a worthwhile 870 pump in a loooooong time.

[@hallsofvalhalla1749]

I agree with this. At least with printers though, you have the option of purchasing laser printers, where the ink lasts a long time or just use print shops.

[@MoxieCatte]

I am surprised you didn't mention the fact that "games as a service" is being used more and more often as an excuse to release games that are unfinished at best and completely broken at worst. They're sold with a "road map" that is a supposed to be a promise to the player, but it doesn't need to be honored at all on the part of the developer. As soon as the game stops being profitable (usually because it is not selling enough microtransactions) the "road map" is changed or outright thrown out by the developers and the game dies. Allowing players to host their own servers for multiplayer-enabled games from the get-go really solves most of these problems. Games like CoD4 (the old version, not the HD remaster) and Black Ops 1 shipped with a server browser and supported players standing up their own game servers with their own rules, and are still enjoyed to this day. In the modern games like Black Ops 2/3/4, the multiplayer will die whenever Activision decides to stop supporting the matchmaking service and the servers. This could be avoided if they just put in a server browser.

[@CallOfCutie69]

And year later Cyberpunk 2077 releases.

[@ThePsychicFish]

Excellent example of this is ANTHEM in 2021

[@christianbethel]

You seem to have conveniently forgotten that both Black Ops and Call of Duty 4 Remastered have singleplayer/splitscreen offline bots, which eliminates the need for a server browser.

[@averagealoneredditor]

BO3 has a server browser and mod tools so I don't think it really applies to that game but your point still stands.

[@sarahsmith840]

@@christianbethel bots =/= players

[@richardrobertson5006]

I'm one of the founders of Missing Worlds Media, Inc. which is primarily a game software company created to back up and finance the passion project City of Titans MMORPG. We literally launched because of what is happening here and I do believe we actually have an end-of-life strategy. I'm not a lawyer (but lawyers have invited me to join my state bar association) but I do have some advanced legal studies including in intellectual property law (I wrote our company's first IP agreements and handled our initial incorporation, etc.) I have found the arguments made in this video as very solid within the limits of my background. One of the issues is that games and game software may not be considered "serious" topics as far as consumer rights are concerned at this time. This is coming from a guy who volunteers as a lobbyist for the ACLU. One possible target is contact the guy behind KZbinr Law. He's an attorney who has been putting together a legal case from a pool of volunteers concerning Patreon (anti-trust case). He might have advice about how to get started yourself. He might even be able to do more but obviously I can make no promises about any willingness on his part right now. Worth a shot at least.

[@Foreststrike]

The amount of inclusion for this level of GAAS would be astronomical. I'm just wondering if you could even include every company that's on that list of GAAS as one single case in one courtroom? But I suspect that would be inefficient, and would have to do everything on a case-by-case basis with all of those companies (Or as Ross puts it, 94% of them).

[@richardrobertson5006]

@@Foreststrike Combining cases is common in civil matters.

[@b3ardedragon921]

Looking forward to city of titans.

[@TheArmoredOwl]

"more boring than my usual videos." Maybe, that people's opinion, I found it super informative and very well written.

[@xmm-cf5eg]

How could pointing out corruption ever be boring? I always find it thoroughly enjoyable.

[@stockicide]

The less we preserve and choose culture for ourselves, the more culture is dictated by companies that actively influence us to "want" things that are beneficial to their bottom line. First day patches, day one DLC, and pseudo-gambling mechanics have already become normalized by companies who benefit from them. Normalizing the idea that you don't own the things you buy is next, unless we stop it.

[@pvtmarcos]

We absolutely must vote with our wallet. We need to help each other generate strong moral commitments to upholding only those practices that truely benefit the gamer. It’s backwards to think that all these companies focus on themselves

[@pvtmarcos]

And to be ruthlessly objective it’s not even fucking hard to not implement shitty schemes. How is it that almost every single company is looking to ridiculously monetize their games even at the effects of the overall quality of the product. Plus The short sighted cash grab MVPs do not supplement for long term success. Producing games at such high quality that build a fan base for generations is what brings you more and more success. To keep iterating to building better and better. Just look at the battlefield series. One of my all time favorite series now turned into low common denominator bullshit riddled with micro transactions We get less and less content. And now they want to make sure we don’t even own our purchased good.

[@Jerbsinator]

The problem is that we are the minority. Most people out there buy games with impunity and don't care about the ramifications to the industry as a whole. Companies get away with all this shit because they know that 90% of their consumers are either dumb, ignorant or don't care. We need to figure out how to get this information to a lot more people. Only then will things change.

[@SimberLayek]

@Anubis_X64 No Man's Sky STILL sucks... and DayZ is still better as an Arma2 mod...

[@tin2001]

I just started replaying GTA3 yesterday. Its almost 18 years old now.... Imagine the chances of a game that old remaining available via a subscription download model... Especially if someone decides its not politically correct or its offensive to ground owls or something. And with the streaming subscription model companies like Google are looking into, you wouldn't even be offered the choice to try and make it run on 10 years on.... Of they find it doesn't work, they'd just remove it completely.

[@Zhigwich]

Watching this as an OW player and I love seeing people keep saying "but the game is free, right?" Like, yeah sure, it's "free" now, at the cost that I can't play the original game I purchased and was happy with.

[@Bladieblah]

What changed so much? New characters and system/balance changes? New microtransaction or monetization stuff?

[@Nostromo2144]

@@Bladieblah Cosmetics are all behind a p2w paywall, virtually forced into a battle-pass, other MTX, etc. 'Free' to play if your time is worth nothing. I didn't play OW1 & sure as hell won't be supporting OW2.

[@isenokami7810]

I’ve heard that they either broke or removed a lot of stuff between 1 and 2, also. Makes it even worse. Doesn’t affect me as much as it does diehard OW fans, but I still got hurt by this too. Sure, I was mostly Team TF2, but I did play and enjoy some OW. It’s been years, but hey, you never know when I might feel like picking it back up again. Except now I can’t, not really anymore.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

@@isenokami7810 They reduced the team size from 6 to 5 (which has a big impact on gameplay), didn't deliver on the PvE mode that was one of the primary selling points, only a handful of new maps but less then what OW1 released with, and only a handful of new characters. By and large OW2 would be a disappointment even if you didn't like the first Overwatch. It's a straight example of expecting people to pay for less content.

[@Sewblon]

What does OW stand for?

[@lantica112]

20:13 Fun thing is most "unlicensed server emulators" are being shut down by companies

[@LetoZeth]

Because the games are still live, we're talking about games that are no longer being serviced. There's also an issue on how the people who run these emulators often attempt to monetize on it, which becomes a legal issue in itself.

[@indigotyrian]

@@LetoZeth Battlefield 2 and 2142 had server emulators set up after those games died, which EA took down through DMCA

[@LetoZeth]

@@indigotyrian - But Battlefield 2 is still live, I would know, I played it 2 years ago, I wouldn't know about 2142 though. And BF2 has dedicated servers available for people to use freely, what the fuck are you even talking about? Are you stupid?

[@Bizargh]

​@@indigotyrian That was probably the Battlefield Revive project, and EA took issue with them as they were distributing the full games themselves, not just merely restoring servers. So essentially, EA was trying to clamp down on distribution of games they pulled probably-permanently from sale & now only exist on PC Discs. To my knowledge, other community server projects like 2142 Reclamation that merely stick to servers have largely been left to continue.

[@ezassegai4793]

its like them saying "we do not allow anyone to do our job for us, for free"

[@randomaccount7815]

buys a game servers get shutdown a day after,making the game unplayable company that sold it:remember no refunds

[@ZlatkoTheGod]

That sounds like some Marcus Munitions type shit.

[@Haukipesukone]

I sort of want to see that. It would be funny, and something that blatant would get people to notice.

[@667halomaster]

@@ZlatkoTheGod dear [Bloodshots], those [Crimson Raiders] you are fighting pack some serious fire power!

[@Ravathiel]

I dumped like $250 on Marvel Heroes.. so yeah....

[@StarContract]

Case in point: Activision's Tony Hawk Pro Skater 5 was still retailing and even went on sale on the XBOX and Ps4 stores - after Activision has shut down the servers. Being an online only game, this rendered this piece of software completely useless. The people who already owned the game got it destroyed for them, while late buyers were sold hot air.

[@mattdamon9326]

If buying is not owning, then piracy is not stealing.

[@Atrcn]

Well said

[@Lestatandvev]

Rephrasing if my money is worthless then your product has no worth

[@therealdankclank]

Based.

[@KopperNeoman]

The WEF will own nobody and be unhappy.

[@therealmrglanet2127]

This misses the point: Where is piracy for online-only games, or games with extremely hard or impossible DRM to crack, like The Crew? No one has cracked that game yet. Developments in DRM technology might make it so piracy is impossible for future games, such that devoting time or resources to cracking won't be enough.

[@TheRealFalkin]

On top of all your points: Even when a developer stop supporting the game servers and breaks your game; people who decide to try and fix it, and make a server for them to keep playing the game on. Those people will be hit with a cease and desist. So after the publisher sneaks into my house at night and break my game disc intentionally, they legally attack me for trying to repair the good that I rightfully own.

[@Raigekon]

The issue in your case is not fixing it, it's fixing it and sharing it with everyone else. Example would be: A mmo stops their servers, they send cease and desist letters to every person that is hosting their game. Meaning you download the game from their servers and play them on their servers. The problem is that you don't have the right to distribute the game, you only have the right to access the game. However, from my understand the way around that would be, that you own the game, install the game via your own installation, then apply a 3rd party patch that will make it work on a new server. This from my understanding should be perfectly fine. I know it's a bit of a roundabout way of doing it, but with my limited knowledge of law, it's how it works atm. Could be changed in the future ofc. If i'm wrong about this, then someone should correct me.

[@nolives]

Breaking your disc is a false equivalency. As scheevy as it is most GAAS put in their terms of service, that you agree too, that they hold the right to terminate that service rendered to you and in most cases it stipulates this may be for "any reason". The thing is coming and brwaking your disc is illegal because of the breakin and entering and destruction of YOUR legally owned property. A GAAS and planned obsolescence are not covered legally as a consumer right because it's not technically your property they are "breaking" nor are they breaking and entering. I'm not saying this makes what they're doung right but until planned obsolescence is made illegal then this is not a legal infraction or legal fraud.

[@jeice13]

@@Raigekon i tend to think opposing piracy of a product no longer being sold is bs. If something you are no longer selling is duplicated from an existing copy you dont lose profit or product

[@ToaKoran]

@Demiurge Shadow It still needs to be challenged, regardless. Sure, it is technically not as comparable to the breaking and entering comparison made in the video, but it also falls in the "ToS", and "TaC" going against the word of the law, at least what little we have regarding things similar to this. Regardless how much of a safe crevice these fuckers think they're in, this can be stopped in it's tracks if brought up to the right authorities, and not the ones that can be bought out by those wanting to keep morphing gaming into a hideous monster that isn't even worth saving. GAAS is a perfect abbreviation for this shit, because it's a bunch of hot air, and often smells like something died which is unfortunately adequate of a comparison since in this case something always is.

[@Raigekon]

@@nolives ​Tos/eula generally don't apply(in eu), tho they can ban you for cheating, they however cannot ban you for no reason. This generally just means they can stop you from accessing their server and even then they aren't allowed to do that for no reason. Further more, as long as you have a perpetual license you can you can do what you want to the game and no one is allowed to stop you.

[@RiceMan9315]

"... and that leads me to the title: Games as a serv-" *video crashes* That's... oddly eerie...

[@ItoeKobayashi]

I believe the push towards destroying games and these "Streaming" games is actually quite deliberate. These companies are likely trying to tap into the good ol' "Fear of Missing Out" which is a very real psychological tactic that advertisers have been using for ages. If a person believes they only have a limited time to obtain something, they are more likely to purchase it so that they don't "miss out". This draws in people who may otherwise never bother to buy it in the first place. I believe THAT is where the money is in that decision, not a laziness or wanting to save a few day's work. They want to remove the opportunity for consumers to get things later/cheaper/free because those all are not the "max profit now" they want to get.

[@thestwinner680]

There's no need to "believe" ;P The deliberate nature is quite obvious and PROVABLE from a business (money making) standpoint.

[@jonfindlay7838]

This has been something I've felt for years as a result of "rares" in Runescape Classic going on to become very valuable in the current game due to their limited availability. I've done things in other games simply for the sake of not wanting to miss out on items like that that could potentially be valuable in years to come. It's a scummy thing to do in my opinion, making items available only for a limited time. Unless you can buy them with in-game currency afterward at least.

[@MemoxWasHere]

This reminds me of Worms Armageddon and the fact that the developers chose the best course of action: not only you can play peer-to-peer, but the actual official servers are still hosted by a few passionate players themselves. Damn, the game still receives official updates from those guys. That being said, thank you very much for mentioning Meridian 59. I'm so happy someone else knows this game in todays day and age.

[@zigfaust]

Some devs like Team 17, Double Fine, and ID seem to be immune to doing fucked up shit. They remember BEING gamers and now run their ships so there is little to no "Corporate Chef" influence. I could see some suit telling Tim Schaffer "Hey we should add Chris Pratt, he's popular." and Tim just pouring gasoline all over the alpha computer and setting it on fire.

[@refoliation]

ID might have that ethos but they are owned by Bethesda and it will be degraded over time like how Blizzard had similar respect for its players before activision gradually degenerated it.

[@HC-qc5rp]

Give Id time :(

[@sponge1234ify]

@@zigfaust Unfortunately, Double Fine did Broken Age. They were _not_ immune.

[@zigfaust]

@@sponge1234ify Broken Age is a fire game doe, what do you mean?

[@c0baltl1ghtn1ng]

You know something's bad when Gordon Freeman is speaking his mind about it.

[@thesaladman8400]

Ah ha, ah ha ha ha.

[@jashloseher578]

I came here to mention the same.

[@AngelAffinity18]

@@violentjiggler I didnt notice that. Its been years since I watched those xD

[@LilacDownDeep]

They're doing this shit with Adobe as well now. They're targeting people who own old versions of their products and fining them as 'illegally bought.'

[@banned-account]

What. The. Fuck.

[@Marcelelias11]

Fuck Adobe. One of the scummiest companies in the world.

[@deejayxcrypt]

@@Marcelelias11 Aye. Whilst the products themselves have still a somewhat monopoly/unicorn status on graphical & A/V design industry, the company feels like it functions like far pre millennium.

[@adarax86]

actually that happened to me, fuck adobe, never ever gonna buy anything from them, not even pirating it, I am still mad about it -.-

[@olzhas1one755]

@@adarax86 According to this video, in most countries, this is literally illegal, so if you live in AU, EU or Canada you could probably take this to court.

[@TheTherapistGamer]

If you buy a product then you own it. If it stops functioning due to the actions of the seller then you are entitled to a full refund.

[@stanleybrodie16]

Thats the thing, when you buy a movie, game or music, you're not buying the products themselves, but the license to use said products. Geez. Horrible run on sentence I did there.

[@plmokm33]

@@stanleybrodie16 The video explains why this is false.

[@TheTherapistGamer]

@@stanleybrodie16 Actually, you are buying a digital copy of the media and have the right to use it just like you could any physical media. In some countries I believe you can even re-sell digital copies, which is something that I think should happen everywhere. Even though digital goods have been around for over 20 years, I still don't think it should be normal that you don't own things that you buy.

[@goldfishi5776]

No no no.. you own a broken product. The premise is that they intentionally ‘broke’ your product. The question is what would be considered reasonable practices in this realm.

[@sebas8225]

Lawyers fucked up, our rights

[@KingSulley]

I know I'm 2 years late to this party. I was recommended this video from a friend, and I have to say this is a great video. Despite zoning out and reminiscing from seeing the CS Source and HL backgrounds every now and then, it was really well put together. can't wait to watch through your back catalogue.

[@judgeprime3730]

Discovering Ross Scott is an awesome thing. Happened to me and now he is always that "put down everything I Am doing as Ross released a video" haha

[@wd4062]

I'm liking this video in hopes that KZbin Algorithm will recommend it to more people.

[@ince55ant]

im engaging with the comments section for this reason

[@hootMaw]

comment for the algorithm

[@l4dfanatic11]

i was recommended it but thats after jim sterling mentioned it XD i dont think the video is boring, i love it

[@t1nytim]

Joining in on comment train

[@srgpepper42]

@@ince55ant Same here. Look, algorithm, a nested thread three comments deep!

[@notpewdiepie6458]

i came into this video wondering why KZbin offered it to me cause i was super confused at the intent...as i watched i learned what this guy wanted me to know and now im glad i watched...super informative and i will be sharing

[@retteketette]

I got attracted by how funny his head looks, like a cartoon character.

[@ewwpoorpeople5684]

Same here

[@daniellevin9598]

I think KZbin offered this to me because I keep watching Jim Fucking Sterling Son and his critiques on the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA industry and their "live service" products.

[@cgrant26]

Now go watch his Freeman's Mind series.

[@stormdaddy928]

Now go watch Freeman's Mind series.

[@QFizzle1992]

This should be required viewing for anyone who plays video games.

[@Archangelm127]

Agreed. I'm spreading this as far and as wide as I can.

[@skyroads-ob2gn]

Just want to let people know, that whenever threads or posts are made in the Valve Steam Discussions and Off-Topic forum bringing attention to the Australian High Court's case against Valve, or other software ownership laws, rulings, logic, etc, a certain Steam moderator, going by the title "Spawn of Totoro" deletes it, and if it's someone else's thread, they often delete the posts specific to showing those things, and then lock the thread with any other comments in it to create a false appearance of consensus in the thread. They've been engaging in this unscrupulous behaviour for a long time, and they even block anyone who tries to discuss it with them on their Steam profile page (despite them being a moderator who should be able to discuss community issues). I've brought this issue up with Steam support on numerous occasions, and they offer no explanation or justification for "Spawn of Totoro's" behaviour, but say they won't do anything about it. I have a sense that this practice of hiding consumer rights and laws from their customers violates consumer rights in some way, and I've told Steam support that I'm going to report this to consumer rights groups (such as those in countries which have taken action and had victories regarding these matters before).

[@occamsbutterknife9186]

POV: You're an Overwatch player in 2022.

[@poolgoldworldwild2163]

Worse, you're an Overwatch player in 2023

[@Sound557]

@@poolgoldworldwild2163I’m sorry for you, dude. Hopefully Blizzard gets sued for this 😢

[@tobycrissinger5064]

This comment aged like a fine wine 😢

[@rhythmicwindu]

Prophetic

[@Kasigil0]

"There is nothing more powerful than a sober mind focused in the right direction" - Ross Scott

[@kenshy10]

See quotes like this are what start cults.

[@XxgoodbudsxX]

A smart mind is dangerous

[@VDNKh_]

@@XxgoodbudsxX Not if it's not sober and not focused.

[@squaeman_2644]

@@kenshy10 "cult" derives from the word "cultivate" so essentially it's cultivating minds to a certain frequency or whatever. Point is perhaps not all cults are bad...

[@CoryPelizzari]

I'm behind this 100% for games, movies and music not becoming "stream only" products.

[@glenm2214]

Wouldnt matter if they did, as long as we got them recognised as a 'good' and not a 'service'.

[@tommylakindasorta3068]

There's a way to provide "games as a service" that is TRULY a service, and that would be the Netflix model, in which the consumer pays a monthly service fee (you could call it a rental fee or a streaming fee) and can continue to play the game or games for the entire time they are paying that monthly fee, and can no longer play the games when they stop paying the monthly fee. Where it breaks down is when the consumer pays the entire cost up front for a perpetual license, and at some point in the future the game is bricked by the publisher. That's the practice that needs to be stopped.

[@Wzrd8]

GabeN once said that any game purchased on steam will be unlocked should steam ever shut down. I Imagine you'd get a limited amount of time to download and burn disks or slam it into a ssd. Of course that doesn't include any online elements meaning games that rely on that will not survive any way.

[@JD-uf3lf]

Boost the signal, share the link. TheQuartering, YongYea etc. look for others that have spread the link and leave a thumbs up on each of these comments. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJbcaIGDnt-rd5I There are 2 boosts on Jeremy's pinned comment, from me and someone else who has around 17 likes. Do your part! o7

[@Skeletons_Riding_Ostriches]

At least you can record movies and music.

[@toaster9922]

Gamers -rise up- *_take legal action against cooperate fraudulence_*

[@LordoftheBlades]

corporate*

[@MathewWalls]

The law is on the side of the corporations. Legal action is futile unless the law is changed.

[@scientificbrony]

We only need your credit card number and the three digits on the back, so after the lawsuit takes place they can put money in your account

[@Yusuke_Denton]

flatulence*

[@areallyboredindividual8766]

The law IS fraudulent.

[@MyScorpion42]

Jim Sterling shouted this out, hopefully many more people will see this now

[@ponponpatapon9670]

thank god lol

[@nagatsuseiken7731]

yup - here because of Jim

[@kebm1388]

Y'all should check out his Freeman's Mind series, good shit. Not near as serious as this, but good shit nonetheless

[@Debilitator47]

Jim sent me. Jim who? Jim fucking Sterling son.

[@SirBruceX]

Thank god for Jim.

[@kei_nishimaru]

How does one manage to keep me invested in a semi-educational video that is over an hour long and is created by a man who runs a dungeon while living in Poland? Meet Ross Scott: Mold Survivor and local internet punter.

[@qew_Nemo]

Not Mold Survivor. Mold Conqueror.

[@esoopthederp7672]

@@qew_Nemo Didnt he run from the mold?

[@epickduk]

Come on, guys. There's no point pretending, we all know Ross was consumed by the mold and replaced by a fungus-based clone.

[@TioMegamanX]

Because real education catches your interest, not the BS you get at school.

[@Kratos58gt]

You also forgot: graduated from MIT, worked for a secret underground government laboratory, survived alien onslaught (still trying to survive I suppose). And he can also recite the quantum chromo-dynamic gauge invariant Lagrangian in his sleep.

[@gusdario8781]

Dude, I'd never thought about this subject on this perspective, and you presented your idea so well that I can't disagree with it. I'm from Brazil, so I'll try to do subtitles in Portuguese so that I can reach more of my friends and people here. edit: Oh, it's not enabled to add subtitles and translations. Ross can you enable it? This is how I can contribute to the cause, and I think that others would like to do so. edit 02: They enabled to add the sbuttitles. I've began working on it today and I'll try to finish it by the end of the week, thanks to all that upvoted the comment and helped out. edit 03: I've done it. Now I'm waiting for it to be aproved. With anyone can help with speeding this part up it would be great.

[@marcelinio9988]

If he doesn’t see this comment you can send him an E-mail.

[@gusdario8781]

@@marcelinio9988 I'll just wait out a little more, then later I'll send him one if he doesn't see this. Tanks for the idea.

[@Vincent_Van_Vega]

@@gusdario8781 Hey I'm also a Brazilian, I'll ask Daniel (Ross' Moderator) if he can enable the subtitles

[@gusdario8781]

@@Vincent_Van_Vega Cool, thanks dude.

[@AverageJoe8686]

@@gusdario8781 the time you take to wait around for the system is the time they take to fuck you. You don't need to be a dictator if you have Judge Brett Kavanaugh.

[@larrythorn4715]

Intentionally killing, bricking, disconnecting, or breaking games should be and must be illegal. The *ONLY* time it is acceptable to require or encourage an internet connection as a form of DRM is if the company will widely and freely release a patch to remove this DRM function before the DRM servers shut down. Furthermore, there are some games out there that can be used in an "offline" mode, however, they suffer a MASSIVE loss of functionality and/or content. For example: "Hitman 2" from 2018 strips the player of all accomplishments and unlocks when in offline mode, removing a great deal of functionality from the game. This is done to encourage connection to the servers which double as a form of DRM. This is fine, but when the DRM servers shut down, they better enable all items and features...

[@BleedForTheWorld]

Your example of Hitman 2 is anything but fine in any lick of the sense. It is the opposite of fine. I know what you're trying to say and I've read your entire comment but I can't help but disagree with you on this. GT Sport, exclusively on PlayStation 4, has an online DRM feature and without an internet connection, it's basically a glorified demo. I'm talking no unlocks at all and it's the most pathetic and anti-consumer strategy out of all the Gran Turismo games in its history. It is by far, far, far the worst.

[@quarreneverett4767]

I have always supported the abandonware preservation by fans. So many games and companies still try to whine at you for abandonware games. I know alot of people like gog but gog contributes to this ridiculous issue. Taking games abandonware then reselling them to make the people that blindly say downloading games is bas even if you are trying before you buy. Which has benefits as if it's a good game it will be bought it's a commong practice. A few indie devs have their games to download for free and got a ton of purchases from it. Abandonware btw means it's not supported so it's free to distribute which doesnt always mean its 5 years for the copyright to wear off. Its completely abandoned. Anyways my stance on this for many years has been in depth

[@peterhoulihan9766]

OR you could just not buy those games. Do you really need laws against everything form of entertainment you don't enjoy? Just don't do them.

[@ethan2670]

@@peterhoulihan9766 "just let the companies do the shitty anticonsumer practice" 🤡🤡🤡

[@peterhoulihan9766]

​@@ethan2670 "It needs to be illegal for other people to enjoy things I hate." 🤡🤡🤡

[@vilerabbit]

I am not a lawyer... I can play the war drums though. Sign me up.

[@deusexmachina101]

They want to play then let's play, drums. DRUMS!

[@Zeriel00]

I can play the electric guitars and flame throwers! >:D

[@skinnysnorlax1876]

Goodness, you could just....just put this video in front of a judge if this stuff ever came to court. Extraordinarily professional, well done.

[@NoobNoob-ss5hs]

I would compress this into a direct to the point video, but hey even h3h3's goofy videos are presented as evidence in the court.

[@weylin6]

When games shut down, they should be legally obligated to release the server software in a functional and documented state

[@TranscenGopher]

The way most software is developed these days, "in documented state" is nearly impossible. They rush and crunch so much it effectively becomes a magic spell to bring the server up, that almost no one on the team understands how to do, except one guy that made it in the first place.

[@TheZALGOisCOMING]

​@@TranscenGopher then they need to change how they develop software. either take the time to document it, or just... don't fucking make it rely on a server that they know is going to shut down and kill the game

[@d1oftwins]

@Ethan Oden The demand from @Behind TheWall was that the developers should know how their game works and to preserve that knowledge. I hope THAT is not to much to be asked for a game you ask money for, now is it?

[@Saviliana]

@Ethan Oden You could start a private agency and ask for money, I am sure people could do something about that.

[@tomhardy6365]

@@d1oftwins so you want them to openly share cimpany secrets.

[@FestusOmega]

Can I point something out? Type "games as a service is" in the KZbin searchbar. What are the results? Result 1: games as a service is not fraud Result 2: games as a service is fraud response Result 4: games as a service is still not fraud Tellingly, NONE of the results are "games as a service is fraud". Given the popularity of this video and lack of popularity of the other such videos, I believe there is no reasonable way we can write this off as merely a mistake of the algorithm. This video is being buried intentionally and people are instead being redirected towards opposition sources.

[@FestusOmega]

@James In what way should that decrease the search relevancy of this video and increase that of theirs? Surely the KZbin search algorithm does not scrutinize the validity of the arguments contained within each video and then decide on the strength of those arguments which videos to promote. What are you suggesting exactly? What do you say is the cause of this phenomenon if there has been no deliberate action to suppress this video? Whether Ross is right or not is _irrelevant_ to whether the search results for this video have been tampered with.

[@Bozothcow]

He's obviously suggesting that KZbin is in cahoots with the games publishers in an attempt to bury the opposition.

[@Amoth_oth_ras_shash]

@@FestusOmega or the simple fact propaganda material agenst the simple fact based points he makes in this video....is artificiality made to be seen more by people searching on the topic....only validates the standpoint. Any product...held hostage as a service is fraud...blunt and simple. to provide services FOR a product is fair... but then the product should function WITHOUT it on its own to begin with.

[@tahunuva4254]

Ironically, the algorithm recommended this to me. Might be because I just got off Uniquenamesaurus' video about streaming services and piracy.

[@Bertiebaby]

Maybe the algorithm changed its tune in the 8 months since this was written because Ross' video is the first result even when i'm logged out entirely.

[@shaneirwin9461]

Description of GAAS: 1- Seller shows you a picture/video of the car you are going to buy, showing all the best bits; power windows, sunroof, big V8 etc... 2- You transfer the money. 3- The seller arrives with a chassis and shell, two seats and a steering wheel only. He says "you go ahead and have fun now.....and it will be even more fun after the first improvements come at the end of month update!!!" ;)

[@froniccruxis1049]

A better analogy would be you buy a license to use a car that has proprietary parts needed to function and gets upgraded parts(those come free with the license though). The company removes the parts from manufacturing or goes out of business and now your car is just a shell that you remember using. In SaaS and GaaS an app(car) that gives you the service(ability to drive) that needs a network(parts) to function.

[@ShogunMongol]

It would be a better analogy if you bought the car outright, but then the dealership repos it a year later, despite everything being fine.

[@Obokralipsis]

want to chime in on the cost of allowing the game to live. I've worked on a recently released arcade game. It has an online ranking mode which uses connection to the server and p2p mode when players are able to connect directly to each other. Thing is, it is already planned to switch ranking mode to p2p connections once servers are shut down. This is literally a hotfix in our case.

[@xanaxodgrindcorelover9191]

good job :)

[@bilateralrope8643]

Interesting. Though I'm curious: Once the servers go down, how does one instance find the first peer to connect to ?

[@SPTX.]

I have a question about that. I assume for the moment you store the IPs of the machines on your server and will put them on the peer list when you roll the update. My question is, once your server is off; where will a new machine, or one that has been updated after the fact, fetch the peer data? Worse case scenario, assuming every single peer is offline. Can your machines reach each other over LAN?

[@magikarpusedsplash8881]

They already stated that they switched to p2p connections. There's many solutions to distributing a collective body of data on p2p network like DHT. Although in comparison to just killing a game, requiring the player to manually feed in an IP address is still magnitudes better than just being cut off (ever played minecraft?)

[@SPTX.]

@@magikarpusedsplash8881 The question isn't how you input the IP but how you get it.

[@fl00fydragon]

One of the titans from the old guard of the internet culture has declared war on games as a service. This is going to be good.

[@Anomaly188]

TotalBiscuit should've been the one saying this before he died. At least some people outside of gaming knew who TB was and he had a background in law. Ross unfortunately doesn't have that kind of name recognition.

[@JohnnyShagbot]

@@Anomaly188 Welp, time to learn necromancy.

[@ronnieradon]

Thank you for saying "customer" instead of "consumer"!

[@DoubleBob]

What's the significance?

[@user-xj5gs3zt6s]

​@@DoubleBob"Customer" generally implies buying goods while a "consumer" buys anything - goods AND services. Services tend to be paid for multiple times, as opposed to goods, which are usually paid for once. Customers can still purchase services, but generally it leans more towards purchasing goods.

[@fearlesswee5036]

@@user-xj5gs3zt6s To me it's more that "consumer" implies you're just buying something consumable, i.o.w. "disposable". A video game is not a sandwich. I pay $5 for a sandwich, I eat it once, and it's gone forever. A video game I pay $60 (now $70 ffs) for, and I play it as many times as I want. "Customer" just sounds nicer too, like I'm a human being walking into a store for something I want or need, "consumer" sounds like I'm just some kind of walking wallet-creature looking for something to quickly devour and then spit out money in response, then move on.

[@kaktotak8267]

Regarding the "repair". Don't also forget that a lot of times such "repair" requires things like reverse engineering parts of the game, cracking them and other things that are often explicitly prohibited by the EULA.

[@quorryraphael9980]

@styzor I think they did? There was a point about how companies should have a responsibility to include an avenue for repair. kakto is saying that not only do they not have any repair options, they specifically try to make it against the rules to repair their game. Twice as bad.

[@NathanCassidy721]

On top of the other points, EULAs are not enforceable. I forget the exact name, but there was a (shit) Steam developer a year or so back that tried to silence criticism and ban players by trying to say it was against the EULA. Not only did it back fire and people saw right through his bullshit, but many looked into the legal side of it and pointed out that they had no right to do so on those grounds. So in short, they could try but game companies would not have any right to try and disband fan-made servers. If anything, it would only serve to damage their reputation which is as valuable as gold in this industry.

[@AverageJoe8686]

You know what's also against the EULA? Smoking weed. Pass the fucking joint bro.

[@CvnDqnrU]

@@nathan5160 I thought black box testing was reverse engineering by definition, why is it not?

[@CvnDqnrU]

@@nathan5160 I think you're completely stupid and I wish this conversation to end.

[@FlorenceFox]

Ugh, as a former Matrix Online player, seeing it on that list hurt my soul. Especially since the big emulator projects have all either shut down or gone really, really quiet.

[@TheStreetMan]

preach brother, ballak from the tetragrammaton reporting in

[@FlorenceFox]

@@TheStreetMan AnVamp, captain of a poorly-ran ship called the New Dream, and founding member of The Pride, I can say that with... well... pride.

[@peterhoulihan9766]

@TheHooseNutz "They are all sadly figuring out what the DMCA was really meant to do. Give corporations ABSOLUTE CONTROL over the shit they sell." Pretty much. It cracks me up when people say copyright exists to "protect artists"

[@acewolfgang276]

@@peterhoulihan9766 It can do that, and I'm sure that was the original thought behind copyright. These days corporations own Copyright and use DMCA to take down anyone who tries to make old school servers

[@peterhoulihan9766]

@@acewolfgang276 "It can do that, and I'm sure that was the original thought behind copyright." No it wasn't. The earliest copyright laws protected publishers, not authors. "These days corporations own Copyright and use DMCA to take down anyone who tries to make old school" Copyright laws have always been this way. Also, most freelance artists are incorporated if they're doing anything even remotely commercial.

[@KevinRobertsArt]

'Imagine a business where people give you money, and in return you give them absolutely nothing. That is a real American Dream.' -Ricky Tan, Rush Hour 2

[@Smilephile]

So a casino?

[@vandagylon2885]

@@Smilephile a casino dealing counterfeit cash.

[@trustytrest]

@@johnmclawson3982 ow the edge

[@igorthelight]

@@trustytrest But he is right! You give them money - they give you a blessing. Yep a BLESSING. Give me 10$ and I will wish you a happy day! :-) So you have to give something spiritual for something spiritual and NOT something material for something spiritual.

[@lurksnitchtongue8986]

@@igorthelight No because they provide services, it costs money to keep the church open, the lights on and the heaters running. Many churches also serve cookies, coffee, hot chocolate, breakfast, run charities and community centers, etc. at no cost and only ask for donations from those willing/able. It also provides a sense of community and a place to meet new people and make friends. Take your edgelord status and go somewhere else.

[@EricRamz]

You missed a big part of why companies would want GaaS. If games are a service instead of a good, they can’t be resold. If games are a good you can purchase them second-hand, which cuts into the companies profits

[@thomasripper8616]

This is... comprehensive. Thank you for your service, no pun intended

[@r0bw00d]

The only thing worse than making a pun is pointing it out.

[@cosmicfool3334]

Sup thad

[@NecumNaTo]

Stop lying, your pun was intended.

[@bryanedds8922]

Games as a disservice.

[@cheyheyway6244]

I find it funny that Ironman dies after snapping his fingers with gauntlet

[@Juliett-A]

Imagine if they burned the Mona Lisa after showing it for a month. And then sued anyone who tried to take a picture to preserve it.

[@EliosMoonElios]

Monalisa is a private properly so the owner have all the right to burn it, and if he have the copyright he have all the right to sue anyone making a copy. Loving something doesn't give you the right to appropriate it. What if I love your house, that give me the rit to use it without your concent?

[@ChillstoneBlakeBlast]

@@EliosMoonElios Usually when a product was private property for too long, there exist something called public domain, which anyone can use said product however they are fit. This is done in order to preserver history and other details. A song that has been subjected to this for the longest is Happy Birthday.

[@Yusuke_Denton]

@@EliosMoonElios Your argument is morally bankrupt, and based only on circular logic and a false analogy. Good thing the copyright law we have today didn't exist when the Mona Lisa or The Odyssey were created. I encourage you to research why the copyright privilege was created in the first place, and why it's temporary.

[@SodomySnake]

@@Yusuke_Denton I don't know about you, but I find the notion that things that belong to me don't actually belong to me to be the morally bankrupt position here. The Odyssey is more of an IP issue, but in the case of the Mona Lisa, a private owner would be completely within their rights to burn it - IF, that is, it hasn't been classified as a national treasure or something, which it probably has. But that's a separate issue.

[@Gabu_]

@@SodomySnake Do you know *why* things get classified as national, historic or human treasures? It's because you, your mother or me, we don't matter at all - we're just a few voices amongst billions. Society matters, what we leave behind matters and that is why preservation of history is paramount.

[@eobet]

Someone needs to make a video on “software as a service” too, because Adobe and Autodesk are leeches on the creative industry. :(

[@nsimportant]

Not the same. You have a monthly subscription and there are alternative options (Dracula Twilight analogy doesn't work on software as a service). Use an alternative software to make your toast.

[@plebmcpleb5761]

I don't think that's quite the same thing. My dad works with PS and is thankful for the new subscription-based model. He used to have to pay thousands (!) of euros to get each of the newer versions of the programs every time they released. It's now actually cheaper and a decent compromise, for both hobbyists and studios. Things could be better, of course, but alternatives are rising too (I'm using CSP personally). Don't know about Autodesk though. If you look into things, the ones that get the real shit end of the stick are architects. Have you seen how costly their softwares are? It's unbelievable.

[@7th7andwich]

Software as a service is subscription based, you don't buy a license that later becomes useless. Unlike Pleb I PREFERRED when I could just buy the complete Adobe package, but now that they're on subscription i didn't have much difficulty adapting to a new product. They simply lost a customer, and I STILL have my (old) versions of adobe suite.

[@Nab2150]

I actually work for a company that provides software as a service and it helps out smaller businesses that can't afford to purchase servers, maintenance staff, and other such things that we provide when we provide them access to our software. We have built in disaster recovery, fail over, and backup as part of what we offer and it is in no way harming our customer base.

[@cougar2k720]

@@plebmcpleb5761 wouldn't it be OK to use the older version? I think even the older version is quite extensive. Unless there are new features that he won't have access to with old feature. I would rather pay for say Office 2013 for one fee, and use it for as long as I can, instead of paying monthly few for office 360

[@Zepimo123]

almost 3 years later and its only gotten way worse

[@GreatRaijin]

3 years later and almost every triple A game is "live service" and some indie games are now following the trend

[@Mueslinator]

God, FINALLY someone with a voice put that odious misconception about "just purchasing a license" to rest. And just to iterate: Even if the EULA states that you purchase a license, that purchase includes the implicit understanding that you also purchase *ownership* of one working copy (per license) of whatever software/text/music etc. you "licensed". This means that as soon as you buy a game, even if it comes with DRM, the publisher/store may not take your access to that software away. Which makes DRM latently illegal, i.e. it's something that is designed to infringe on your rights as a customer. Just putting it out there, because too many people just take that ass-reaming like good little bitches and do not even *ask* themselves if what the corps do is even legal. To paraphrase my aunt "Well, they have lawyers, they'll surely know what they can and cannot legally do, so if they do it, it must be legal". That is *not* how this shit works. They have lawyers because a lot of the shit would not hold up in court, but to even get it into court, you need a lawyer yourself, and for a single game, no lawyer will take the case (since they're paid in fractions of the contested sum, i.e. whatever your game cost). Or, to put it another way: Companies use shitty, quite possibly *illegal* practices because holding them accountable is pretty damn hard.

[@ntomsho4545]

I'm sorry man, but you don't have any idea what you're talking about. DRM is clearly not illegal. I don't know where you're getting your "ownership of a copy" idea, but I've never heard anything of the sort in the U.S. In-house legal absolutely would object to something like that if it was illegal because they would almost certainly get hit with a class-action that would be costly to defend even if they won it.

[@Mueslinator]

@Nick Tomsho: If you "don't know where you're getting your "ownership of a copy" idea", I suggest actually watching the video you're replying under. There is case law in the EU that explicitly states this right (I think it was either a case against Oracle or Sun). Not everyone lives in the US. And at least in my country (Germany), class-action lawsuits aren't a thing (and from what I understand, they aren't in many EU countries, or often are limited to cases of "collective harm"). In fact, in order to facilitate the absolute avalanche of litigation after the Diesel scandal here, government had install a makeshift solution. So, as always: There is a world outside of Eagle Land. edit: And DRM is illegal in that its function is to prevent your access to that working copy you own. Kinda like it's illegal for a company to burn a book you bought from them, or for a car manufacturer to install a mechanism that stops your car from working.

[@bilateralrope8643]

Also, in many jurisdictions, the EULA means nothing because you didn't see it until after you've handed over your money. Making it too late to change the deal.

[@ntomsho4545]

@@Mueslinator Fair enough, I'm not trained in EU law, but I'm pretty sure what you're talking about is the first sale doctrine for which there are analogous concepts in other countries. It just means the rights holder can't prevent you from reselling the copy that you purchased, it doesn't give you any other rights and it doesn't transform the software license into full ownership (if it did you'd be able to make copies of the software and sell them or create derivative works based on it).

[@Mueslinator]

@Nick Tomsho: It's called Exhaustion Rule, and it is akin to the first sale doctrine - but it also establishes ownership of the copy to the buyer. The ruling is UsedSoft versus Oracle, if you're interested, and the ruling explicitly mentions that ownership of the copy is transferred. This is the basis of *why* the buyer is then allowed to resell it: Because they own that copy. Another aspect of establishing ownership is that the rights holder is no longer the owner of that copy, and thus has *no rights to it* . The court clearly distinguishes between copyright (right to the IP), and ownership of the copy. As stated, on the one hand, this means the buyer, as owner, may resell it (just as you would be able to resell a book, or a tool you no longer need), but it *also* establishes that the rights holder may not interfere with the functionality of the copy - just as a rights holder may not burn a book, even if it's their own IP, or just like a car manufacturer may not brick a car, even if they hold the intellectual rights on them: They have exhausted their rights over the individual "version" of that car, hence the name "Exhaustion Rule". This then means that DRM as a measure that prevents you from accessing your legally purchased copy - a copy that you *own* - becomes criminal if it *does* prevent you from accessing and utilizing your property. As said, I'm from the EU, so my knowledge of US law is very limited, but I think there is something that governs interference with one's property rights, maybe this would be seen as Trespass to Chattel?

[@TheDemocrab]

50:48 Additionally, Australian refund law states that if you're no longer satisfied with your product through no action of your own, you're entitled to a refund. I feel like the game no longer working would count as "no longer satisfied"

[@michaelkenner3289]

To some extent. If I remember correctly the standard is that a reasonable person wouldn't be satisfied, based on the product's intended use and it is only applicable for the expected lifespan of the product. I don't know what that time period is for computer games but many electronic goods are only expected to have a lifetime of a couple of years.

[@TheDemocrab]

@@michaelkenner3289 So, it'd come down to the judge and how the case is presented. Electronic hardware is expected to only have a relevant lifetime of a couple years/half a decade or so, but software? There's plenty of much older software still being supported, patched and the like. I'd expect given that, a judge would see the whole "Have GaaS if you want, but when you're shutting the servers down you need to take steps to ensure the playerbase can at least attempt to keep it going themselves" way of doing things. (eg. Releasing the server code, patching the MP stuff out of the client side software or even something such as starting an Open Source project to allow the games community the chance to fix it with help from the actual devs, etc.)

[@michaelkenner3289]

@@TheDemocrab it's a fairly subjective standard as far as I'm aware. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the case law that sets the precedents involved. I think you could certainly make good arguments to that effect. It's basically what the ACL is intended for.

[@TheDemocrab]

​@@michaelkenner3289 Definitely. That's why I think a judge would view "Do something to allow the community to support it if they want to" as a reasonable middle ground.

[@Trollisms]

Australian Consumer Law is actually pretty great and I think that what Ross has talked about would be fairly easy to enforce under the current understanding of the law here. What I could see being a problem is that if Australia was the only country to successfully do this, game companies would just not sell or block their games from being sold here (Or being used as a service). We have a fairly low population which means it's pretty easy for publishers just to write our country off. This has happened before when we had our problems with games being refused classification in our country. A lot of publishers took a look at us and just said it's not worth making the changes and they could do it again here.

[@AirLancer]

People arguing against this guy... Some people just really want big businesses to screw them over. "But this is exactly the sort of thing Company X does!" Yeah, and everyone hates them for it, so why would we want that to become the norm for games?

[@SpaceBearEngineer]

IKR? I just don't get it. Why fight *FOR* the companies attacking your ownership rights? Do these people *like* not having rights?

[@Megalomaniakaal]

Eh, masochists enjoy the experience of domination no matter who offers it. What else is new?

[@TrueMetis]

Whole lot of people have been heavily indoctrinated into free market propaganda and think anything else is bad.

[@ninjaeddy1717]

What should we do with games like warframe or Fortnite, then? Throw them all away since they’re fraud? People like playing those games. The devs make money. No fraud is happening. What wrong is that the current binary definition of good vs service can’t actually describe those games. They’re a hybrid of both.

[@nohints]

@Brocialist Party of America wat... wat does the endless SJW attack on all forms of entertainment have to do with this? Because mentally retarded diversity hires with arts "degrees" are ruining games... therefore gamers are easily brainwashed... therefore they like big companies screwing them... ??? XD Like Eliot, you didn't do too well in your formal logic classes did you? Gamers ARE too easily brainwashed, but fools like YOU are the ones you have succumbed to it. It is actually the opposite from what you're saying. The people lamenting the death of good stories and serious characters in games (replaced with "durr I'm black/gay/furry") are EXACTLY the people fighting the games companies on things like this the most. Over-monetization, live services, and hyper-politicization are ALL ruining our games. I don't even like the Quartering, but he fights both. I'm a non-white academic of all things, and even I see this. It's the games """journalists""" pushing both pro-corporate and pro-SJW standpoints. SJWs and corporations are mutual parasites feeding off each other, and have been for quite a few years now. Why are most people labeled as shills also SJWs? The people screaming about politics in BFV were the same ones screaming about the scarcity of its content; the SHILLs were the ones screaming incoherently about Nazis to DEFEND the company. If you knew, er, *anything* you would have seen this correlation. Not to mention, neither SJWs nor games "journalists" care in the slightest about preserving games (or even playing them); they're just vehicles for pushing narratives to them, to be thrown away once used. Both the companies and the SJWs they use as shields need to be fought here. But maybe you're just one of those sad, low IQ fellows that read articles about how Legend of Zelda games are all secretly allegories for coming out of the closet (despite the clear interpretations given by its creators) and think that it's profound. XD Oh well... I'll let you go back to your class on why the Burka is a symbol of freedom and a bulwark against the patriarchy now.

[@TrustyGun2]

This video will remain relevant for years. Which is more than can be said for a lot of GAAS

[@DoodleWill]

Remember guys. Download this video. Just in case. Not saying anything with happen. But always helpful.

[@Aredein]

recently youtube deleted the KZbin Poop on Harry potter "Гарри Повар". Now you can only find it in fan's reuploads.

[@planescaped]

Well this video has a 10 second clip of the Nazi book burning from Indiana Jones... so wouldn't surprise me if stupidtube pulls it. Gotta protect people from... uh...

[@facing_w0rlds]

@Nathan Hale stale meme

[@salsamancer]

@Nathan Hale what are you talking about?

[@RetroCat111]

if I do that will I own it? :-/

[@sorry-what5527]

I just realized This has no midroll adds

[@proteus2103]

@JustusGregorius There's an intermission..... That was well-timed though.

[@nedinnis6752]

Which made it easy for me to listen to it all in one go.

[@joxvur0088]

Hello people of past. Just gonna say that KZbin puts in ads (even if Ross wants them in or not) forcibly. The more you know about KZbin

[@theblackhundreds7124]

Please donate on his website. Even if it's a dollar.

[@Gogglesofkrome]

@JustusGregorius This vid came out of Ross's time, though. All this research, thinking and writing to set this thing up; I mean can't you just give the guy a break? Hell there's nothing keeping you from just using adblock.

[@caseygoddard]

This video should be mandatory viewing by anyone majoring in computer science or business.

[@kylekent4464]

This would make an incredible Business Law lesson

[@APPARATVS]

I will refuse to purchase ANY game that requires online connection to play a single player mode. Too many publishers are doing this now and it really ticks me off. Honour is one example Waited for this and when I learned that it requires online even for the single player mode, I refused to buy it !

[@slyguythreeonetwonine3172]

I just wait a week for a smart person to remove the game's "need" for an internet connection. Then I pirate it and laugh riding off into the Sunset.

[@bricaaron3978]

@@slyguythreeonetwonine3172 Is that when you buy a copy? When you download the crack?

[@slyguythreeonetwonine3172]

@@bricaaron3978 I wouldn't call it a "crack" in the traditional sense. These days pirated games come "pre-installed" all you have to do is unzip the folder and start the game.

[@bricaaron3978]

@@slyguythreeonetwonine3172 I didn't know that, but nevertheless -- when you download a game, do you also buy a copy at the currently available price? Because if you want to play games (as opposed to just boycotting them entirely), but don't _pay_ for them, how do you expect anyone to actually make games in the first place? As a charity? Are other people supposed to pay for games so you can play them for free?

[@slyguythreeonetwonine3172]

@@bricaaron3978 I usually look at it as a "demo". Back when I first started playing PC games (mid 90s) demos were a huge thing. There have been tons of games I would have never bothered even looking at, that I've tried, and have loved (CKII, HoI, Skyrim, FO4, Kerbal Space Program) just to name a few, that I first demo'd enjoyed the hell out of, and within a few hours to a day, I've bought the game and transferred my saved game data from the demo to it. Beats the hell out of trying to read reviews for games where the Game Journos can't even play the First Super Mario Brothers, but expect me to take their (paid for) word that the game is good/bad. If it hurts them, maybe they will learn to scale games back instead of spending stupid amounts of money to make set piece games. Maybe they will remember to cater to the people who've played games since the 80s, instead of watering everything down so 4 year olds can also have fun "playing". If it destroys it, then meh, I have almost 40 years of video games both PC and console. With PCs that can run them all. That's another thing too, why buy a game when Microsoft will patch out your ability to play it in like 6 years when a new OS comes out? I am so glad I have a few PCs I've rigged up (My beloved XP machine) so that I can't still play games I've bought from the 90s. If they can LITERALLY steal a game back away from me, I'm not going to cry a single tear over stealing a new game from them. *Shrug* 2/3s of all my games have had that happen. And I'm just done being played for a fool anymore.

[@Yobleck]

This is why Dedicated servers are a must. I have tf2 and cs:s servers on my computer and anyone could theoretically connect to them even if Valve ceased to exist.

[@Daniel__Nobre]

Yes, this! It would be a good customer “protection” approach to legally require support for dedicated servers for any game that requires online connection.

[@shortyorc121]

Yup battlefield had it right up in till last couple releases. At least all pcgames should be this way private dedicated servers is the only way.

[@narvuntien]

Yeah, I think this is a good solution if a game is thinking about shutting down they should release a patch that allows the old school dedicated servers. Man, I remember myriad of CoD4s servers that wasn't that long ago. I think EU might be able to get a law through on this though, His argument is really strong.

[@circleofsorrow4583]

Doesn't the release of private servers open games to hacks?

[@gamedoutgamer]

Important, yes. Irregardless once they shut a game down, dedicated servers or not, they should AT LEAST provide unsupported software(s) so that we can play the game (product) we purchased.

[@adamsfusion]

Something I think you might want to also look into on this, and might umbrella over this issue, is the "Right to Repair" movement across the US. Not only games, but phones, computers, and other hardware has the exact same issue as games as a service, and the Right to Repair bills want to ensure that companies must give information and back away from consumer's needs to repair and modify their own goods.

[@DFX2KX]

A few companies have taken the hint and made their products more readily repairable (Motorola partners with a repair website to sell spare parts now). Many of them won't let you openly discuss modification on their own forums for a number of reasons, but at least with Lenovo/Motorola, they don't actively try and stop you.

[@meowster101]

Hell, it wasn't even that long ago that jailbreaking an iPhone was officially ruled legal in the US. It's crazy that "intellectual property" isn't legally treated exactly the same as any physical property with a patent would be

[@YbborUberAlles]

This is why being forced to login online to play gtav offline fills me with rage.

[@YbborUberAlles]

I shouldnt have to disable my computers network adapter. You say "modem" as if its as simple as unplugging a modem, or turning off your wifi. it is not.

[@jsachs]

That's only for a limited time also, after some time without playing you CANNOT start the game if you're offline. You ALWAYS have to log in every once in a while.

[@superninja252]

there is mods already to GTA

[@evo-labs]

I was filled with rage after buying a new copy of GTAV, installing it, then discovering it required a 60GB update to play, causing my data cap to be exceeded. So I paid for the game, but in order to play what I just purchased, I have to pay for downloading patches that should have been on the disc, and also the penality of going over my cap. Its yet another case where businesses comprimise their services or products which results in the consumer having to literally pay for those compromises, on top of the purchase price.

[@Ndlanding]

@@evo-labs Holy shit! 60GB is a lot. My ISP has no limits, but I can see you you feel. If it were a phone (my limit is 6GB/month), you would be throwing yourself off a cliff. Maybe you can apply for an update (on, er, a whole pile of DVDs)? It's kinda like buying a Volkswagen, then having to pay the postage on a replacement for the fraudulent car they sold you. But how did you buy it originally? Download? Surely not, if you had to download it again. DVDs? On a pendrive? On an SSD? How??? I'm dying to know.

[@smakfu1375]

I'm 2 years late, but at the end, you hit the nail on the head by stating this all rolls up into "war on ownership". To why this is, you need look no further than "recurring revenue" as the holy grail of all modern business. You don't get to own a "license" to use your software, your media or, increasingly, your own hardware. You get to pay a monthly fee (which goes up over time), which they collect, regardless of the quality of the delivered product, because steady revenue growth is all that matters.

[@SeraphimxSins]

It's all about more, more, more.

[@peterhoulihan9766]

I fully agree, what I don't get is why we need to make such games illegal. Just don't buy them, problem solved. Someone else buying them is not your problem.

[@overratum]

@@peterhoulihan9766 consumer choices do not exist in a vacuum.

[@peterhoulihan9766]

@@overratum Someone else's consumer choices are still not your problem. Or something you have a right to dictate. If someone else likes some thing you don't like then tough shit, it's their call.

[@overratum]

@@peterhoulihan9766 if people buying poisoned food means more of the food I like starts getting poisoned because businesses are finding poisoned food to be profitable, it's my problem. You're right, it's tough shit if I don't like poison, but it's irrefutable that their choices to buy poisoned food create more of a demand for poisoned food, and to pretend supply and demand isn't consumer driven is pure ignorance.

[@samadams2203]

This is really well researched and presented. I never actually thought about games as a service's details, despite it becoming a more and more common concept. Thanks for the video!

[@youkaijesus484]

[ASMR] Gordon Freeman goes on a rant about the legal morality of a game-selling format (Headphones Recommended)

[@Spartan4521]

Video that got Jesus crucified by Roman publishers (1BC)

[@crazyape515]

Hahaha

[@dohnjoe4100]

@@Spartan4521 two weeks old, but jesus was born year 0 and died 33AD. AD=Anno Domini="year of our lord" =/= After Death.

[@Spartan4521]

Haha oops

[@goodbyejeffery]

I was listening to this while cleaning up the house, so all I could picture was Gordon Freeman navigating Black Mesa while ranting.

[@oNTiger]

“Ah he seems to be wrapping it up here, this was a really good video” *check time stamp* “Oh well we have another 40 minutes to go, that’s ok”

[@IAmLeMonke]

One of the internet's few "Mandatory" videos imo

[@DeadPollo]

time to go to bed, i am sleepy *Ross uploads 75 minutes of wisdom* ...sleep is for the weak anyway

[@VideoSage]

I think the only thing you failed to cover, is that them shutting down the game, can be a tool to force people to buy the next one. Would have been a nice mention during the "Pros and Cons" section. In theory it costs them sales power of their next product, by keeping the old one running. To be clear, this is sickening, and lacks any morality, but it's something that would have been nice to have covered as well. (Even though planned obsolescence does sorta, indirectly, cover this.)

[@ShadowRadiance]

This is exactly like Ford coming to destroy your old Mustang because they have a new model out this year.

[@VideoSage]

@@ShadowRadiance Oh that's such a near perfect analogy. Edit, or a movie franchise deleting it's first film from your library, to incourage you to buy the sequel.

[@nuruddinshah684]

DAMN To think I see you here sage

[@futuza]

This makes even less sense for a company to do this if the game is a sequel since usually you want your player's to have played the first one. It'd be like reading Return of the King without having read the Two Towers or Fellowship of the Ring first, but even worse because in this case they have gone out of their way to destroy those books so you have no other choice but to read Return of the King.

[@ketrub]

I don't feel like that's entirely the case, as often the amount of bad PR generated would be enough to bring down the sequel's sales down.

[@DigGil3]

In my opinion companies should be obligated to release the source code after a decade or so, or if they are discontinuing support. That would enable modders to patch in peer-2-peer servers and all the other "hard work" like removing DRM or port it to new hardware that can't run old software. If companies want to hold intellectual property they should keep producing new property. Depending on unusable property is the fabrication of value, it doesn't help anyone.

[@klobiforpresident2254]

"peer to peer servers" This made my head hurt.

[@Other_Kev]

Hmm... previously, I had actually thought about a possible counter-argument that online only games might not make as much money if some of their potential customers would rather just wait for it to be legally emulated for free in the future. But by having the time frame be something generous such as "10 years at the most after discontinuing support", I think that would solve the problem nicely. A lot LESS people would be willing to wait 10 years to play a game for free. Wouldn't be the perfect solution, but in the end, everyone wins. Art is preserved, and the publisher can still entice people into buying their next identical game.

[@claytorpedo]

@@Other_Kev In order for this to work companies would have to hand out their proprietary engine code, which an updated version is almost certainly still being used in future projects. I like the idea in principle, but that's a pretty big ask. I can't think of a good way to enforce this or something like it (release clients with an online API?) without adding huge costs to companies -- many of which are small enough this may price them out of the market.

[@thundersoul6795]

Corporations aren't interested in helping "anyone", they're interested in helping their boards get richer than the richest of rich and then even more rich. There's nothing more to it, at least for the vast majority of them.

[@Kakerate2]

This effectively limits IP to 10 years, HARD nerf from your life + 70 years. Some reworks of copyright law are needed, but this is too naive of an approach I think.

[@Mastermind12358]

This man speaks the truth, and its amazing how many gamers will try and defend these big corporations that literally don't care about anything but money.

[@EggEnjoyer]

“But did you read the Eula” 🤓

[@KopperNeoman]

THE MESSAGE first. Money second.

[@penguinmaster7]

"more boring than my usual videos" silly ross, your videos are NEVER boring

[@Scrombo2]

(Sarcasm) Dude these click bait vids are ruining youtube, (non sarcasm) more than youtube is ruining youtube

[@TheXell]

Weirdly enough, this had me glued to the screen more than I usually am by content like this. Though I don't know whether thats because of my interest in the topic or by Ross' enthusiasm.

[@unlolshtopable]

yeah, they are ALWAYS

[@itaybron]

"We probably have rights! " Homer Simpsons

[@baileypalmer103]

We truly need this to be trending. Screw these companies for screwing us over.

[@thermallance7947]

And let's not forget the second reason why they love games as a service. You cannot escape microtransactions and lootboxes by going offline.

[@JordabHawkeye]

you're a hero ross, thanks for all the hard work on top tier content creation and important (as far as games go) stuff like this

[@peppage]

I am genuinely worried about all the new streaming services coming out. Very thoughtful video

[@DermyOP]

Most of them are subscription based tho

[@peppage]

Yes, perhaps not fraud but from a preservation standpoint

[@bryanl1984]

I was thinking about this as i was emulating some great games from my childhood... The retro gaming scene is going to suck in a decade or two. I hate "games as a service" but, digital distribution is going to cause a lossibly even ksrger loss as those survers will ultimately shut down. I live in a rural area where internet soeeds arent that great and I really hate essentially being forced into this. At best, they should be required to provide a physical copy or means to produce one with no DRM hassles for preservationist purposes.

[@SirMcFrosty]

Man I am so glad someone has gone to the effort to shine light on this with more then just opinions, been spreading the video around various discord channels that have to do with games and such, hope things work out. Brought it up in the Parsec discord for example. Might be a good idea for everyone to do the same if you got communities, lets just hope it doesn't get bungled and sent out with misinterpreted context as it spreads. Again, thanks for the effort Ross.

[@GoddessOfMisfortune]

The Crew 1 is shutting down with no plans to offer any form of offline support. We live in the worst timeline.

[@mongee3614]

No the worst timeline would be if jfk reacted to the missile Cuban crisis the way his military advisor wanted him to

[@keyboardstalker4784]

The sad part is the more time passes, the more relevant this video becomes. Everytime I see live service games coming out, my mind goes back to this video. More people need to see it.

[@muzzleflash9288]

ask your viewers to always ask on message boards and advertising material for new releases "what if the end of life plan for this game?" let developers know that this is a question that might affect sales. if the question is asked 30,000 times on the trailer video they are sure to take notice.(noticing does not mean they will act but they can't say they dont know its was wanted before release)

[@MagellanLife]

This is a really good idea. Large community outcry like this has shown to work in the past, at least to certain extents, and could ebb the way some games get planned and killed in the future.

[@thundersoul6795]

Oh no, they can say whatever they want, it's just that pretending that 30k+ questions on the same topic don't exist will be a clear indication that they're speaking Bullshit instead of [language].

[@Daniel-wj5fz]

'I got my 20/30/40/... hours of enjoyment out of my 70$, i don't care if they shut it down 3 years from now' /s

[@Vedad1944]

Who else watches Ross almost religiously for the past 12 years? We should try and get this on trending, there's always power in numbers.

[@WhenToastersAttack]

26:12 "Either printer ink is made from unicorn blood or we're all getting screwed." is a good quote.

[@WhenToastersAttack]

@@VioFax I would suggest playing older games, or indie games. But, if you're dead set on dropping video games, might I recommend D&D as a replacement?

[@marscaleb]

That is a great quote, but where does he say that? Not at the time index you mentioned.

[@NoriMori1992]

@@marscaleb It's in the article shown at that timestamp.

[@NoriMori1992]

Stix N' Stones You guys remember you were originally talking about the price of printer ink, right?