Games Workshop Blew It

[@DiscourseMinis]

For 21 FREE meals with HelloFresh plus free shipping, use code DISCOURSEMINIATURES21 at bit.ly/3PGFUti!

[@fightingblind]

My dyslexic self read "for 21 free minis"

[@DaLkalts]

I'm pretty sure Discourse read "21 FREE minis with HelsReach" without her glasses, and signed sponsorship right away

[@bigbug3438]

The terrain problem is quite solvable by using magna tiles that kids to you can paint them up and little gerbiling and this was not my idea another youtuber already did this plus the magnet tiles are cheap here is the link to the other guykzbin.info/www/bejne/nXecdYGVbcZoodE

[@mikejonesnoreally]

It always means a lot to me when it's the *message* that's what's important. In your case that would be how many ads you can stuff into a GW "head fake." >.

[@dudemcfurgusson7179]

Fun fact; the chessex wet erase battle mat can be used to doodle the maps for this game mode in minutes, and you can just play on that.

[@Haroith]

Chessex sells the best dice ever. Gorgeous and cheap.

[@Hedron-Design]

yes the old space hulk game from back in the day had a flat board, you don't need the terrain but it is being pushed by GW of course.

[@bowwing333]

...b-but that's illegal, oni-chan!!

[@peterclarke7240]

That, a copy of OPR in pdf, and some miniatures from wargames atlantic for that "one box, one army" feel, and you're there! Oh, wait, where's the money for poor, destitute GW?! 😥 😂

[@Ironfrenzy217]

Brilliant!

[@brianhall4182]

Remember the days when GW encouraged you to cobble together your own terrain and units? And White Dwarf published articles on how to turn cardboard tubes into buildings? They literally had a step-by-step guide on how to make your own Baneblade. And now it's just "No, in order to play this new mode you have to buy our 200 dollar terrain set. And if there are no models, we don't print rules. Also no printing your own models either. "

[@ironbomb6753]

Yea man. Those were the days when GW was run by fellow gamers and hobbyists. While we are still getting cool stuff, those early days are long gone.

[@malakimphoros2164]

no model = no rules is the aftermath of Chapterhouse

[@davidc8982]

I remember building bunkers for epic space marine based on templates they printed in white dwarf. Was a great magazine back in the early nineties. Was always excited to get the next issue.

[@chaoscarl8414]

And tanks made of old deodorant bottles... Oh, how the might have fallen. Today's Games Workshop is a very different company than the one I used to be a raving fanboy of, way back in the days.

[@Sorrowdusk]

Make your OWN *Baneblade* ? I never saw that one, only the Landspeeder deodorant.

[@Crosis101]

“Strange game, the only winning move is not to play.”-JOSHUA, Wargames

[@Ultrox007]

That's my line.

[@Magicwillnz]

"Hey Mom, can I play this new game?" "Sure Timmy. What do you need for it?" "Well, for starters you need a $200 box of plastic walls..." (conversation ends)

[@chaoscarl8414]

Pretty much this. Though in truth, it's been like that for quite a while now. Well over a decade ago, a saw a mother walk into the local hobby store with her son, wanting to buy a starter for Warhammer. No problem, just buy this core box. And that's all he needs? Weeelll... Then there's glue and tools and paint. He'll need the rules for the army he wants to play, of course. And the starter box isn't a complete army, so he'll need these boxes as well... By that point in time, the mother turned to her son and went "didn't you also want an XBox?". And then they left. And that should tell you all you need to know about why the game is dying.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

@@chaoscarl8414 made only worse by the dropping purchasing power for most families... it's wild watching the system eat itself.

[@OmegaLittleBob]

I think they intended for Kill Team to be their game for new players and anything else is for the whales. I was excited by the idea of Boarding Actions, I honestly considered buying the rulebook. But then it turned out the rulebook was going to be four rule books. Then the price of that terrain, ooof. So I'll just print my own space ship walls and get the rules...elsewhere.

[@darko-man8549]

YEah, KT was the first attmept but that got overmonetised too

[@JS-mu9qd]

Maybe the rules will show up on wahapedia.They already have 40k,Age of Sigmar and many others.

[@kdog3908]

Protip: Don't use a metal implement in a frying pan with a a non-stick coating. Personally, I like wooden utensils but there is a decent selection of heat resistant plastic stuff available these days.

[@gabrielmarquez4029]

Good point. I’m a nonstick silicon fan myself.

[@KameSennin4209]

Cast-iron is my go-to.

[@yugioh1870]

*laughs in Cast Iron*

[@billdefranza4927]

What?

[@beardhammerwargaming]

I agree with cast Iron, however if you have a nonstick I also recommend a wooden utensil. My favorite ones are made of olive branches.

[@suanniiq]

I miss the old starter boxes from the 90's, had everything you need to start and play a good game of Warhammer Fantasy or 40K. I know is for the love of money for GW, its sad when they abandon a great entry system into the hobby. I would like to get back in, but not at cost of their current rates.

[@deathula1]

​@@jodargoofmaztica5071 this!

[@11AleZZ]

If you count inflation, that starters aren't much different from current boxes

[@Bluecho4]

@@jodargoofmaztica5071 ^This

[@bonusactionheroes]

I was just looking through my original necromunda box set and thinking the same

[@malakimphoros2164]

@@jodargoofmaztica5071 No, marines are stupidly good because of their 2+ save. I had 3 orks gangbang a marine in melee for 2 turns before the sucker died.

[@grisch4329]

Idle thought: The "Shadowvaults" Kill Team set that sold out in like day one, for some reason was actually produced in much more limited numbers than Into the Dark. Both of these contain the same space hulk terrain. If you bought both sets, you had exactly the same terrain as in the border patrol terrain box that sells for like 210 freedom bucks over on this side of the ocean (Or 260 Apology Notes in the great white north). I wonder if some brightspark at GW went: "Hang on guys, pull those Shadowvaults sets, combine 2 sets of the terrain into a box and we can sell it for stupid money when we launch this new "Border Patrol" game mode for 40k! The idiots will buy it like proverbial hot cakes!"

[@georgeaitken2719]

I was lucky to get both and you right it’s just the same stuff with different kill teams and a extra sprue with some nice terrain pieces and can’t understand why they came out within a month of each other

[@timb8314]

Try 360 dollareedoos.......360 criminal currency, for the poor buggers down under.

[@jimmysmith2249]

Apology notes. As a Canadian, I agree with this.

[@jimmysmith2249]

@@timb8314 You guys get fucked SO hard by prices over there, dude.

[@drafezard7315]

@@timb8314 Right m8, it's down right robbery if you ask me.

[@ColeNOXyd2nd]

It's neither border patrol nor boarding patrol, it's boarding actions.... and yes i am fun at parties

[@Redtecho]

Crossing the Boarder?

[@colinmack8655]

I will play KOW ambush

[@darthvader1494]

You are correct god sir.

[@OEFarredondo]

Yeah, no.

[@angelmanfredy]

Better as Bored Actions.

[@Chubyfunstuf]

This kind of rant is what you get when you feed Discourse after midnight.

[@colin_painting_adventure]

I see what you did there

[@Bobby3OOO]

Discourse eats plenty at all hours, I’m guessing

[@retrostoryteller]

Oh man i loved Cityfight. Tyranids on vertical surfaces. Perfect excuse to build tin foil terrain and magentize my bugs.

[@the_inquisitive_inquisitor]

What'd the magnets stick to?

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

@@the_inquisitive_inquisitor Our tinfoil hats of course

[@ChrisKCook]

I'm hoping the next Season of War / Narrative Arc is City Fighting.

[@malakimphoros2164]

@@the_inquisitive_inquisitor Glue

[@the_inquisitive_inquisitor]

@@malakimphoros2164 If you're just going to glue the nids to vertical terrain then what are the magnets for?

[@georgeaitken2719]

I remember when the original space hulk came out the rules were on a single double sided sheet and the mission book only had six missions but it was quick easy to set up and you didn’t need to buy anything else for it

[@ElohimJim]

Would that be the double sided rules sheet that had 27 pages of rules in it??

[@georgeaitken2719]

No this was first edition

[@miniaturefun-guy]

Small scale war game in which I can use my existing minis and books. I’m in. Goes online to purchase the book and terrain. How much could it be £50. I could stretch to that. Opens GW website before slowly closing laptop and walking away.

[@nathwhit3980]

$200 terrain set. Longer set up time and take down time... So many new books needed!? Completely new and cumbersome rule set?! And finally buying the actual miniatures... and associated time and effort to get them ready to hit the table. Wow.

[@nerdfatha]

First, congrats on the Hello Fresh sponsorship! Second, Space Weirdos and the upcoming Sword Weirdos are some of the best starter wargames I have ever seen. If you want something darker and more flavorful, but still beginner friendly, The Forbidden Psalm line is fantastic!

[@DiscourseMinis]

Thanks for the tips!

[@erickparks6347]

Battletech also has some AMAZING starter boxes for good prices and I have been enjoying it

[@LordDarque]

This is why China-cast (if you know, you know) is rising and has such an appeal. The companies in their greed have priced themselves right out of the hands of players.

[@LordDarque]

@@Black_Blow_Flyuh-huh.....

[@LordDarque]

@@Black_Blow_Fly Why take it out on the channel?

[@LordDarque]

@@Black_Blow_Fly You're a richard.

[@LordDarque]

@@Black_Blow_Fly well here's hoping that everyone sees my post and looks for China-cast.

[@zenovkayos5811]

Your channel is literally a hidden gem. If GW don't recognize the red flags you raise, they will definitely get overrun by other alternatives and then attempts to redeem themselves won't help.

[@shauntaylor9251]

I wish it would stay hidden ! I find her so annoying

[@jirga_jirga]

@@shauntaylor9251 yet you're on her channel commenting on her latest video. I usually unsubscribe channels which I don't enjoy or find annoying.

[@zenovkayos5811]

@Shaun Taylor I am way more annoyed at GW and how disconnected they are from the community. Her points are valid and her theme is a plus / bonus for me.

[@matt86096]

@@shauntaylor9251 You must be from Boarding Patrol Dev team

[@tomwisniewski8988]

Nah, there's no way this will hurt GW at all. They've survived some debacles in their history; this bump in the road will be swept under the rug by Summer.

[@Mikey__R]

New player: how much does 40k cost? Me: several hundred pounds. New player: that's quite expensive. Me: per month. New player: it must be really fun to play then. Me: let me manage those expectations a little...

[@drafezard7315]

Soon it'll just be. How much does 40k cost? It's in the name.

[@octaviousdutolan4270]

As a brand new player to Warhammer 40k, I went into it with the understanding that tabletop hobbies, as a general rule, trend toward the expensive side. If you've ever played such titles as Dungeons & Dragons or Magic the Gathering with physical pieces you might understand my frame of reference. I look at it as an expense over a long period of time, and entry into any of these Intellectual Properties has a bit of a pay gate. Buying a somewhat inexpensive mid-tier Standard MTG deck in singles from online websites will run you anywhere between 400-800 dollars, as opposed to getting an intro deck and a few booster packs which will result in you loosing at tournaments but maybe having fun with other friends that have just started out. Playing D&D, if you get just the Players Handbook, Dungeons Masters Guide, the Bestiary and a few sets of dice will still run you upwards of $200, but you can do on the cheap versions of this as well. I also never considered it to be excessively predatory as the general rule of thumb for me was occasional purchases would crop up that I'd budget money month-to-month for. This being said, I had a certain outlook in mind when I came into 40k. I have a daughter, and we're starting to learn the system as well as the hobbyist aspects of the game. It seemed extremely convenient that the new Arks of Omen with their Boarding Actions was about to be released - the new game mode was based around small scale armies, had a few cool interactions like opening doors, the fact it uses the same rules as the larger version/grand battle of the game, and the most important and overlooked aspect of the entire situation is the expected time investment in order to sit down and start to finish complete a game. From all of my observations in youtube videos and glimpses of in person games over the years at hobby shops, 40k is akin to the board games of Risk or Monopoly. They eat immense sections of time, and you often time dont finish.. instead a winner is chosen based on the board game state. I'm sure there will be a learning curve, and just like building/painting models its a process that experience will vastly decrease how long is required for setup. I understand the frustrations the community seems to have with Games Workshop relative to their price points. I was fortunate to have been able to save up for a while in order to make the expensive purchase of getting into 40k: Paints, Brushes, a Magnifying Lamp, Models, Tools for Modeling, two Codex Books, Data Cards, Dice, and the New Boarding Actions Terrain as well as the 2 books that were released with it. (Arks of Omen and the little manga-sized one) As a parent, quite often money gets spent to facilitate bonding experiences/vacations/memorable moments with photo opportunities/etc. The metaphor that @DiscourseMiniatures said when comparing it to the price of a video game console is accurate, but I suspect that the value I get out of spending time with my daughter on the art front as well as the battle front will more than make up for the fact most video games anymore are only multiplayer if you have more than one system (barring a few exceptions). The added bonus is in before long we'll be able to buy a comparatively cheap number of models from a different faction in order to keep the game fresh with an ever increasing pool of potential sides and boarding actions games. Lastly, I would prefer if the game was more affordable, and Games Workshop didnt function on a scarcity mechanic in order to sell their products. Want a book? Better buy it, otherwise it'll be on Ebay for 80-100 bucks, or you'll have to spend $30ish on audible to listen because it's likely to never be printed again. Want a cool model in an army that's about to come out? Better preorder it or buy it ASAP, because you'll be lucky if in the coming weeks and months they release a second wave. (I picked the Leagues of Votann, and the Einhyr Hearthguard shortage is particularly stinging) This doesn't even get me started on the fact Games Workshop Citadel Paints doesnt have any kind of Bulk Pack with all of their base/layer/technical/wash/contrast paints that contains their most popular colors with a few duds snuck in to pad the product. I will admit that Games Workshop does not seem to care much about the ease of entry into Warhammer 40k, and to me that seems counter-intuitive as its them leaving money on the table. They could keep their industry-standard prices and be the Apple Store of Tabletop Wargaming, but at least keep your popular paints in stock at the physical stores. I had to wait close to a week after buying the models for everything to arrive from Online Storefronts, and ended up going with Vallejo due to their apparent 400iq policy of having sets of paint. [enjoyed the video, and as it seemed focused on long-term 40k people I felt like sharing my experience as someone just getting started. peace to all who read this comment]

[@nathwhit3980]

Heroscape. You're welcome. I know from personal experience that it was the introduction point for many new wargamers!

[@phht0568]

The original all in 1 box with multiple teams and modular terrain, gw wishes it was heroscape

[@c.g.262]

I’m with you too. I just want something to celebrate. I just want to play a game and have fun. Not drop another $100 just for the game rules.

[@frankb3347]

With Battletech or Alpha Strike (the simplified version) you can have an entire "army" and all you'll ever need to play for under $100. A game that has used essentially the same rules for almost 40 years now. Being the runner up they're like the Paizo of wargaming.

[@typehere6689]

Battletech rules are an eldritch horror in dire need of an overhaul. The universe is the primary draw to me, anyway.

[@frankb3347]

@@typehere6689 that's why they made the Alpha Strike rules. For those interested in something closer to a traditional style of wargame.

[@MildraTheMonkVT]

Last month, I did an interview with Three Brothers Grim, who are putting out a universalist game called Warsurge (and an associated app you can get free). They've made clear that their rulebook will have a basic ruleset (for full-scale armies) and an advanced ruleset (for skirmish play). I just wanted to point that out for contrast.....and because it's funny.

[@davidloganpatton]

To be honest, I would have bought boarding actions if it was half its msrp, but there are way better uses of 200 usd than just a board that can only play 1000pt games max

[@dave4deputyZX]

2 words: Grimdark Future

[@markcampbell127]

I bought an stl pack that mimics the terrain, and printed the entire set for 25 bucks. Meh. I wasn't going to spend the 270 Cdn for their set. Problem solved

[@mikehendon7327]

Just got to the bit about terrain, and I realized: Space Hulk. They genericized and removed the "play a story" element from Space Hulk, then took the rules out of 2e 40k. But left the ship-crawl element. And then they made all the ship bits out of hard plastic you're required to buy...at roughly its weight in silver.

[@valenteayala5774]

Damn girls transition to and out of hello fresh was so seamless. Love the content, keep it up Discourse!

[@the_inquisitive_inquisitor]

My 4th Edition Rulebook works pretty good at the 500pt scale.

[@adamcline8728]

Ah, 4th Edition. How far have we fallen?

[@cameroncampbell2564]

TT Combat also have a starter-starter Carnevale set almost quarter the price of the terrain for this game. That is the way to introduce players.

[@RemTV]

have you seen the new battletech alpha strike box? there's 13 minis (basically two armies), terrain, tokens, rules, and even dice! it's so brilliant, you should check it out

[@adamminister7123]

The perfect example of a good beginner set is the Alpha Strike boxset. It's a simplified skirmish wargame version of Battletech that makes it easy for people to get into the Battletech setting. It comes with 2 forces of models that you can use right out of the box, as well as all the terrain and tokens you will ever need. The only problem with it... You can't bloody find it anywhere because it's always sold out.

[@wintermute1943]

Excellent insight into the neverending saga if GW suckage. Keep up the great work!

[@FelisMachina]

Boarding actions is most fun 40k mode I had played since last edition of KT. Although I agree that without terrain, rulebook and faction codex it's not easy to get into. It requires too much investemed for new players. Unless you already have rulebooks and terrain (like from Into the Dark or Shadowvaults) or a friend who has rulebooks and terrain the it's way easier to get into Kill Team or any other skirmish game.

[@thephoenixstudio]

Kill Team 2021 beats 40k, old KT and Boarding actions. Cheaper, easier, more balanced and more interesting.

[@FelisMachina]

@Joe Robertson To each their own. I would argue about KT being easier, cheaper and balanced. For me KT 2021 at this moment is almost as bloated as 40k with special rules, stratagems, unclear wording and rules that interact with other rules. Not to mention wonky LoS and cover mechanics. It's easier to get into because you can buy a 2 player starter set and give it a go but if you plan to stay longer you need almost the same amount of books as 40k: faction rules, corebook, annual, faq, balance update, and lots of terrain. As for balance it is surely better balanced than 40k but let's be honest 40k is not a great representative of balance so being more balanced than 40k is not a great achievement. Just try to play anything from compendium vs bespoke teams. Even bespoke teams are not balanced so much with some that are leagues ahead of other bespoke teams. KT 2021 is not a magnum opus like some people pretend it is. For me, boarding actions are much more fun to play than KT. But like I said. To each their own.

[@thephoenixstudio]

@@FelisMachina LoS / cover is way clearer on KT than 40k, I still don't understand 40k's cover system. And you only have 3-6 (if you count tactical ploys) strategems per team. I think you are confusing the number of teams out there with how complex each team is. There are a lot of teams with special rules, but you only need to know how yours plays really. If you are counting the number of teams in complexity than 40k loses as well. The sheer number of units and stratagems makes 40k dwarfs anything in KT. Like what you like, but 40k is objectively a complex mess. This video does a good job covering how even a new "stripped down" version of 40k is crap. I've played lots of war games over the years, and the current version of 40k is the worst in pretty much every possible metric (cost, complexity, balance, etc).

[@thephoenixstudio]

Try building a 40k list without using an app/website. I program for a living and I can't even follow some of the rules for which loadouts some units can take...

[@TheEndKing]

When I was younger, I was sitting around at my local game store, when a woman walked in to buy her son some Warhammer stuff like he'd asked her to. She got a big box and some other smaller packages, and was flabbergasted when the guy rung everything up and told her that it would be like, 8 or 900 dollars total. She started having a nervous breakdown and started crying, so much so that the cashier actually talked her out of making the purchase. Overhearing that, and trying hard not to make eye contact with anyone over in that part of the store, that was when I knew that Warhammer wouldn't be the game for me.

[@chaoscarl8414]

I've had similar experiences. And that's why 40K is dying. There are only whales left now. It's simply much too expensive.

[@typehere6689]

That's enough for a gaming PC more than capable of running most, if not all, of the WH40k video games out there. Said video games actually being reasonably priced.

[@lichazeakel1126]

GW has to realize sooner or later 1 of 3 things are going to happen with the player base. 1) The diehards will continue to, as Discourse Minis said, hold their nose, especially with the already large investments made. 2) Get fed up, and leave as they learn there are things like OPR, where they can still use there Warhammer stuff, thus no loss in investment outside of the books (to ebay they go). 3) We die. As GW does very little to bring in new players, especially younger ones who don't have a ton of money. And forget about bringing a new person if the edition has been out for a while, with all the books they will need just to get started.

[@verathorn1556]

I don't think it would be hard for new players to make their own boarding patrol terrain simply by cutting and folding paper it's really simple actually. But if I do try this game mode, I'll probably use one page rules instead of 40k.

[@thejdi]

That goes straight against the 'new player' idea. Buy and play... or well...

[@Crosis101]

I have game mats from AT-43 because, i am a nerd. I spent an afternoon making foam core walls to match the walls on the mat to give it some dimensionality….it sucked and I was committed. Yes some might do it, but most people don’t care. Look at video game completion achievements….i just finished God of War 2018 a week ago and joined the ranks of 47.2% of players. Even when the story is laid out most people don’t finish… The same is true with new wargamers.

[@amn1088]

I mean they can but most people wont. Thats kinda the issue, no matter how absolutely great boarding actions looks and my god I am so hype it doesn't matter because there is no easy way to convince new players. You have to spend what $150 on models, $50 on a book(or find it for free which can be work), Either buy and build a $200 terrain kit or build one your self out of card board or something which is still again a ton of work even if someone provided templates and stuff for free to make it easy. Its just asking so much of the player its going to be dropped and ignored.

[@1crlski]

@@amn1088 You need to add another $70 for the core rule book and $50 to $55 for you codex

[@Bluecho4]

@@jodargoofmaztica5071 ^This.

[@TheMcLeish]

"...don't read into that any further...." Too late 🤣🤣🤣

[@manofaction1807]

Border Patrol should have stuck to tiles, or hex tiles. The walls are a shitshow to build and paint.

[@theblindjedi41]

Another excellent commentary. GW continues to find ways to make their games way too expensive for new players to get into.

[@CommDante]

Or for people with multiple armies to keep up. I can buy 2 Gloomhavens or an All-in kickstarter boardgame for the money of just the codices every 3-4 years. It's an interesting game, but it's gotten way too expensive to keep up, and not even talking yet about the increase of the boxes/models last decade or all the other accessories the keep adding/changing...

[@theblindjedi41]

@@CommDante Especially with so many smaller scale games much easier to get into. Just hoping enoughof them break through that one of them gives GW competition again.

[@lincolnwillis3345]

I was so excited for Boarding Action. I haven't touched 40k since the beginning of 8th and BA looked like a good way to to get back into it and teach my two boys wargaming. Then, in the battle report I saw the guys had their codexes, the core rules AND the omen books and I noped out of interest. Shame

[@DiscourseMinis]

yeeeeah, I'm so down for a smaller scale version of warhammer

[@znorman23]

Use wahapedia

[@Bluecho4]

I would highly recommend using One Page Rules as the teaching intro to wargames. It's a lot easier to learn and, imo, much more efficient than 40K.

[@peterclarke7240]

Stargrave is your friend. It ticks all of the boxes (accessible, quick, cheap, fun) and your lads can have a play around with the rpg-lite crew building mechanics as well. It's also miniature agnostic, so you can use any minis from anywhere (wargame atlantic are my personal favourite if you're on a budget). Seriously, the biggest favour you can do your kids is show them that GW are most definitely NOT the only game in town.

[@thomascruise4966]

@@Bluecho4 agreed. I’ve used the Grimdark Future rules to get my 8-year-old daughter and 6-year-old son into playing. It’s a heck of a lot simpler for them to understand than even basic 40k without even driving into stratagems and all the other nonsense they’ve injected into the system since 6th edition. I miss 4e/5e when you could bring all the big flashy stuff for Apocalypse games and still play small skirmish-level games as the main thing.

[@eldergeeks7301]

12:25 You are SO wrong. Have you even ever played? Turn two players spend as much time interacting with the table as turn one players. They are just spend their time removing their models...

[@TheTobaccoman]

It’s just rules to sell the terrain boxes and books until they drop it all like hot cakes later this coming year. Sad but it’s the season pass model.

[@JachymorDota]

When your starter set is the equivalent of a downpayment for a car, you should know you fucked up. I have yet to see a company so deliberately trying to not get new customers it is insane.

[@acidnine3692]

Honestly, I was waiting for this game mode ever since the first zone mortallis Thank God for 3d printing

[@malakimphoros2164]

X-Wing requires 1 (Aces High) or 3-8 (Extended) prepainted miniatures, which have crashed in price by like 70% recently It's funky

[@Thelordofalldarkness]

£200 for a board and a few pieces of plastic, nope 3d printer go burr and I have come up with this myself with some of the guys I used to hang about with. Yeah I remember the days of city fight and planetary empires. I have decided I will not be playing anything further than 9th ed I will be going back to 5th and 2nd eds and if I want a a unit from a later edition its easy to brake the rules down to the similar edition rules with a few tweaks.

[@spiderfloof947]

Launch 9e Tyranid Codex, huh? Well, at least B̶o̶r̶d̶e̶r̶ Boarding Patrol will definitely feel like a Space Hulk.

[@escapadesend6133]

also assuming you can get the book i pre-ordered through (well known third party) and they still have not been able to get my copy. they are shipping the ridiculous plastic to me now, but are still waiting on the stock of books....

[@qqwadddamage367]

Bingo: Easy to play hard to master. Im becoming more convinced day-by-day that only Tournament bros play this game. People buy it, yes, but they only dream about the idea of playing. Thousands upon thousands of independent rules? Most people just can't/won't keep up. And that's beside the initial cash layout and weeks of man hours assembling and painting. This marks my 35th year in the hobby and it's never been in worse shape.

[@BrandXsps]

"Prepare to be boarded. Again and again." -Zapp Brannigan

[@markskarr2257]

Ironically, the way I got the cost of Wargaming minis to come down, I bought a resin 3d Printer. It's an expensive start up, but the Resin is cheaper than figures, and there are some _gorgeous_ figures available on-line, usually entire armies (in printable files) for about the cost of a single GW Figure. But, I don't play anymore. Which is sad. But, 3d printing is still really, really cool.

[@blearyspace]

The pure fear on Discourse's face as she says "five portions of fruit and vegetables"

[@lemontangs]

Just reissue an updated version of Space Crusade. It was simple and fun. This was my gateway game into 40k.

[@03dashk64]

Those four criteria define Lunar so well. Or the Heavy Gear two player starters

[@scannerbarkly]

Legit think the worst thing to ever happen to wargaming was cheap rent in large houses in Nottingham in the 80s. I love Jervis Johnson and Andy Chambers, but the dudes had a 18 foot wide sitting room and decided wargames needed to be played on a 6 by 6 table.

[@FeatsDaily]

I never got the impression boarding actions is for new players. Seems to me it’s for people that have already been vested in the game. The entry point for basic 40K is core rules (free), codex (can be free because internet), and a combat patrol box. It’s really not that bad. People seem to think you need to have a 2000pt comp list in order to play you’re first game. Get a combat patrol, build/paint it. And if you like it, then buy 1 new kit per month. Build/paint before buying more. Have like… a 60$ budget per month. By the end of a year, you’ll have about 2000-3000 points depending on the faction. Boarding actions is a supplement and in no way is meant to replace regular 40K combat patrols as the starting point. The new boarding action boxes are a good new way to get bundled discounted minis, so not seeing a problem with those too.

[@DiscourseMinis]

I feel like the mode was a perfect opportunity to get new people into the game

[@db345t]

And the book does not have a way to purchase digitally, and are not available anywhere in physical version.

[@RocRolDis]

I've actually given up on learning 9th edition. There are just too many rules. There's the core rules, then factions rules, then sub-faction rules, then strategems, factions strategems, sub-faction strategems and keyword strategems. Seven different layers of rules that you need to know for ONE army that you play and that you need to be aware of for the army of your opponent. You can play without a lot of those, but people do get disappointed when they can't use thier broken extraneous rules. I've played one game against a live opponent. 500 points, my custodes vs his mechanicus and he was disappointed that he couldn't use his strategems or canticles or whatever. We were using just datasets because I barely know what I'm doing. I beat him handily and it felt bad. It was too easy. I made several mistakes that I think should have cost me the game, but I just steamrolled him.

[@deathula1]

Down with stratagems!!

[@alexisl5189]

I mean admech, more than any other army, is dependent on interlocking buffs to make up for mediocre datasheets. To the point that admech command phases are a bit of a meme. I'll grant you there is too much rules bloat, but if you ignore half the rules you are never going to get a balanced game. One of the more interesting things 40k actually does, and a good way of giving different armies different complexities, is having some armies get their power mostly from datasheets (this is usually the elite armies like SM and Custodes) and some armies get weaker datasheet but in play buffs to make up the difference and squeeze more out. You see this more with mid range t3 elite armies like admech or eldar. None of this is to blame you ofc, the games super complicated and I doubt you set out to make it one-sided, but just to explain why that game was likely a stomp.

[@RocRolDis]

@@alexisl5189 My biggest issue with it is that there aren't ways to bring people in slowly It feels like you either play with all these multiple layers, and I forgot missions rules, terrain rules and specific terrain piece rules bringing the layers up to 10, or be introduced to a game where you either stomp or get stomped where both just feel bad. I've been looking into Battletech because it does have layers of rules that can be added or removed without completely breaking the game.

[@alexisl5189]

@@RocRolDis Yeah, you can't really pare back the rules like that unless you're running basically the same army (see HH). I love battletech. It hits the perfect spot between, skirmish game with only a few models and being complex enough to get lost in tweaking mech loadouts etc before the game. I've even seen it be used to run an RPG and the idea of doing that with 40k is kinda laughable.

[@kriswilliams9276]

TTWN is exactly how I select my table top games. I don't have time to mess with overcomplicated rules. K.I.S.S., 'keep it simple stupid' is the way to go. Just as you got into how new players would feel burned and put off by this experience, KZbin broke into your video with a Preparation H commercial....PRICELESS....

[@c.g.262]

Leave it up to GW to F up the easiest thing to make.

[@Durandurandal]

Do love how the spikey boarding patrol comes with THE SUPREME COMMANDER OF THE SPIKEY MARINES despite there being several plastic HQ models they could have used instead. Seems old 'armless didn't sell as well as they would have liked lol

[@egnaroelprup]

I did recently see a fun video about using kid's "magnet tiles" playsets for boarding actions terrain and I guess as long as the ruleset for the terrain isn't too specific and oppressive it seems like at least one cheaper option

[@zombiedad]

Thanks discourse. When you say the GW core customers are neuro divergent or disabled, could you tell me where you can find that information?

[@thesamon123]

Common sense 👍

[@lotharkain7546]

Border Patrol!! XD I nearly spit my coffe.

[@Haroith]

In times of 7th edition of WHFB I played wood elves vs bretonnians. This tournament game became the most negative thought in all my hobby life despite of painted armies, good terrain and nice opponent. He had a very big unit of grail knights full of characters and some support. All his small units were killed very quick, so by the time of 3rd or 4th round I've got his knights-train surrounded. Two rounds I tried to kill anybody with no result. I charged with 4-5 units in rear and flanks: treeman, treekin, wardancers. A ton of attacks with high strength, attacks with killing blow (ignoring armour on 6). Two times I charged, both times I attacked ordinary troops (not characters, they are invulnerable at all), every time I killed 1-2 knights and lost after knights' strikes. What else I needed to do to win? I made everything, just as manuals teach us about warfare - surround and cut off. And what the result? Nothing. At first I thought 'it is just one game, maybe it is about bad dice rolls'. But no. It repeated over and over again. Vampires with regeneration banner was just the same. 10 knights with 4+ invulnerable save. Only one time I broke them. My empire cannon killed the hero with banner - I accurately predicted distance, rolled for distance, rolled to wound, he did not rolled 'look out sir' (only on 1 he got hit), he did not rolled 4+ regeneration, I rolled good 'damage' (1-2 wounds were not enough). It was the only way to win. With 'actual' warhammer-games such pain in the butt repeats over and over again. You must buy and play 'right' faction for this month or you may stay at home. No other chance.

[@matthewdougherty1159]

sadly what warhammer/gamesworkshop have turned into is a expensive toy model that you put on a bookshelf case that you look at but don't touch just in my area to start from scratch you need 500-600USD just to get models and paint for a starter fireteam not a army a FIRETEAM not including the books needed to use the fireteam in a game for only 5-6 minis

[@artfrombelow]

I dont know where the idea came from that this was going to be an entry point. It looked to me like the 'boss fight of 9th edition' with all the extra complications a boss fight implies. Did they make a statement that its supposed to be an entry point?

[@knoxminis1211]

Yeah, that's my point as well. It's just a different game mode.

[@DiscourseMinis]

No, my point is that it would be a perfect entry point, and the "alternative game mode" has a ton of changes made that does make it perfect for new players. It's the surrounding business model that ruins it :(

[@waywarddarkwolf8064]

I got my mate a CMON Song of Ice and Fire Stark vs Lannister starter set on Amazon for his birthday. It cost 99 quid (on sale, its normally around 150 quid which is still cheap enough for what you get). In the box there are 4 units per side plus characters, plus faction cards, plus 2D terrain plus rulebook. The minis pack away neatly into the box when you're done. The rules take about an hour to learn. After learning the rules you can set a game up in about 15 minutes. This is how a new game should be released. But there again CMON is a gaming company run by gamers for gamers and always has been. GW is a gaming company run by Money-men for share holders.

[@stephensmith6660]

Been playing catch up watching this channel, and man, I love her viewpoints and energy. Great channel.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Awesome, thank you!

[@jamesraper3475]

Grimdark future firefight is just easier and better. Also deadzone is easy and cheap and often cited as the best small scale scifi.

[@jirga_jirga]

Combat patrol during 4th edition was great.

[@ronnyrdr6553]

17:40 , This. That's precisely how i feel about popular games nowadays in general. DOOM is the one that has uphold that honour. But i couldnt think of another title that does.

[@PatGilliland]

Form GW "Boarding Actions are a fresh way to play Warhammer 40,000 with *existing models*, using rules in Arks of Omen: Abaddon" Emphasis added E.g. Not for newbs but a way to suck more money out of the whales.

[@stuarthamilton5112]

I just bought my first set of minis! I got the Cadia Stands box, and I look forward to painting them. I did spend $200 on the box, though… It really takes a lot of work for prospective player to break into this. I’ve been at it for months now. Oh and LOL@Border Patrol! I love you!

[@Prinny9000]

I've been working on both a death guard and a imperial guard armies for boarding patrol since it's picking up rather fast in my area heck it's over taken Kill team in my area (we have someone 3D printing own version of our of the Terrain)

[@Stumpy044]

Boarding action terrain box - $210 Ark of Omens Book - $60 Space Marine Codex - $60 Chaos Space Marine codex - $60 Space marine combat patrol - $150 Chaos space marine combat patrol - $150 Grand total for two new players = $690 (before tax) This DOES NOT include, paint, brushes dice, glue, clippers or any basic supplies one might get in a start set box. This IS NOT for new players. (I know the boarding patrols are coming out but they will be no less than $110, but i expect to see them at the $150 price)

[@ravenRedwake]

1:24 that’s a bold statement, they’ve released tanks without bottoms and pretty much copy-pasted the 4th edition Chaos book for 6th edition with the new stuff added in (and made over powered)

[@joseluisnd75]

Boardign Patrols... yeah... look good. But I'm more hyped by Ambush Kings of War. 40€ 40 miniatures plus easy introductory rules. And for Sci-Fi, skirmish Grimdark Future rules from One Page rules far better. And make terrain with cardboard or childs construction toys from onedollarstore equivalent here in Spain.

[@colinmack8655]

Don’t forget Mantics sci fi systems, firefight and Deadzone

[@joseluisnd75]

@@colinmack8655 Yes, I've got Deadzone from a friend recently. Must test it.

[@TaliaTheNeko]

Bet ya that as soon as 10th releases, support for this gets dropped like a hot potato. (see also, apocalypse, releasing new stuff for kill team and re designing the rule set months later, etc etc.) I am done dumping cash on "new stuff" only tp have it become unsupported a short time later. GW can go get a bucket of sand and a hammer and proceed to pound sand.

[@PhotoReactionVideos]

Blood Bowl is the answer! It ticks all the boxes. Thank you Discourse for another fantastic episode 😊

[@1KamaronConClase]

How happy I am that I discovered One Page Rules, trully.

[@UnverifiedScrobbler]

Played a couple of game 2 nights ago at my local hobby store. They didn't have a set of the terrain built yet, but did put together a set using Necromunda terrain and whilst it was a bit too bulky it was still easy enough to get the idea that you're right, it's not new player friendly.

[@NecrontyrFan]

It's absolutely atrocious how much it costs to get into boarding action, but I actually think it's better than big 40k rn. The truth is though, without the flgs covering the terrain + book cost, no one in our community would know. This could've been an amazing intro set, but instead it's paywalled almost worse than big 40k.

[@DiscourseMinis]

100% agreed. This type of game mode was right up my alley :(

[@MrMintyfreshsmell]

When I got into table top gaming I tried Warhammer first and always felt the game was against me unless my opponent used a complete meme army. It never felt fair and even. However, Middle Earth Battle SG feels amazing. There's a ton of interaction between the players and the game feels very balanced compared to 40k. I highly recommend anyone to check out Middle Earth BSG as it has good depth while being fun and easy to play. It's cheaper to.

[@CorrinQuest]

My main complaint is I can’t bring warp spiders…and that they don’t have a plastic kit yet

[@jamesvalentine2845]

Funny thing is GW players were always able to play smaller games with no strategems...it's just the players are absolutely moronic and incapable of independent thought without GW telling them they can do it... And you don't need a £200 box set either...

[@toddzircher6168]

This is the first time I have heard about BP 40K. I'm kind of amazed since I did this exact game for my son and his friends back in the day. [I built a Space Hulk/Kill Team hybrid down to building my own 3d terrain to support it.] Also kind of amazed that GW dropped the ball so hard (not really.)

[@fabbygarza9863]

yeah, me and my wife got into wargamming/warhammer because of a black friday sale where we got the tau/sisters of battle kill team box for $70, we had been wanting to get into it for years but the price was always way too much

[@mickbrilliantfootballeroft327]

Bring back Space Hulk but with extreme kill time. Introduce all factions and option to be them. Like Raider Orc pirates etc..

[@danepatterson8107]

Isn't it true that a big part of Warhammer's problem is that many dedicated players want to win more than they want their opponent to enjoy the game? I'll be honest, I don't even think their Lord of the Rings game is very well balanced. Lots of armies will never ever be used.

[@jamesonstalanthasyu]

ooof, the terrain should have been just a place mat. the walls can come later if you get into the game.

[@darkmistress1980]

theres a company called archon studios that have released a few different kickstarters over the years one 2 examples are "rampart" and "dungeons and lazers" both work with 40k. they are injection molded scenery thats you paint yourself. they are worth the look specially if you are in the UK/EU. my partner blew AU$700 on their first KS. and they also do stuff for fantasy games like D&D too

[@scareypete13]

"I play Drew Carey" ~ Discourse

[@nenadsavanovic8628]

I'm going to wait for OnePageRules to improve it

[@BluntsNBolters]

When you we’re on about the picking the wrong army is my biggest fear. I bought that age of darkness set and been thinking for weeks which legion too pick it’s frustrating lol

[@tommytymesaame6624]

Kill team is for small dynamic games boarding actions is for a thematic game. If you want to get into waha40k play a 500pts game with no stratagems primaries or secondaries. Then, I would say in that order, add them in so you don't get overwhelmed and can focus on rules one set at a time then when you have all the core rules down go to 1k, 1.5k, and 2k. The only reason to do the smaller game sets to get into the hobby is if you are unsure about building and painting models. And all the rules can be easily found online I went from ok let's try this to 1h later I had rules and a 500pts army for myself and my dad to try on tts

[@rangda_prime]

Makes me happy I'm writing my own set of low model count rules to play boarding and exploring confined spaces with little space minis. Ravenous Stars, I'm calling it. You can play it on a whiteboard and draw the walls if you want to.

[@tsstahl]

How do the models stick to the white board?😁 Sorry, too easy of a shot not to take.

[@rangda_prime]

@@tsstahl A white board, like most flat objects, can be laid on top of a table. ;)

[@rossgruenberg9700]

You should make a video highlighting one page rules and what different miniatures (gw, legions, etc) can for the bill

[@JS-mu9qd]

The boarding box seems like a good idea to buy if you want a 500 pt box with some good miniatures for the normal 40k .It looks like Abbadon is in the Chaos Space Marines Box.Depends if the price is ok though.