Games Workshop Broke the Internet

[@paintertovey]

Hoping Ross is going to be a regular, great chemistry ❤

[@thepaintingphase]

We hope so too.

[@thisoldwarhammer]

agreed!

[@FauxHammer]

@@thisoldwarhammer Agreed!

[@stevenkeelan3220]

Not arsed, more angry about electricity bills and the real world stuff.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Exactly - The very things that this culture war bs has been designed to distract from

[@walt_man]

Truth. In fact, to be arsed about this sort of thing. I mean really ARSED. You have to either completely ignorant of your real problems or just not have ANY.

[@ntw3002]

If you stop buying a product you like because you disagree with some unethical behaviour by the company, that's a boycott. If you stop buying a product because they changed the product and you don't like it any more, that's more like... 'not wanting the product'?

[@ashes2ashesuk]

My condolences on your loss Patrick.

[@jamescurtis2112]

I think if Gw asked Henry Cavill what he thought, then all would be fine in the 41st millennium.

[@j4ksx]

From what I know of HC, he'd be completely down for female Custodes. Warhammer definitely isn't a coping mechanism for him to structure his life...seems anyone upset by this issue is not a fully functional member of wider society. Just from what I can see on KZbin. Most of the best takes on this issue have been from OG gamers, now in their 30s and 40s, and largely British. I feel the American influence on GW in general has been pretty toxic and completely devoid of understanding the satire on which the entire universe is based.

[@invincigaz4067]

​@@j4ksx yes because Henry is known for his love of lore changes, oh wait no, no he's not and famously left the witchery show over it 😅😂😂😂

[@j4ksx]

@@invincigaz4067 sure...but he's also known for being a snowflake whining twat with major masculine insecurities...oh wait! He's not. Jog on, Gaztop.

[@stevemurray1848]

So sorry to hear about your Dad Pat - real life stuff definitely puts things in perspective in terms of the silly things people lose their minds over. All the best to you and your family at what must be a really tough time.

[@chaosclg]

Keep hammering guys, these interviews with people in or around the industry are top notch content, i thought it was peachy who made the show but his show with suggs is unfortunately unwatchable 😂 (each to their own i honestly wish everyone the best and happiness in what they do)

[@ka5141]

The irony of releasing this on the day GW announce price increases, so everyone's forgotten about he female custards, isn't lost on me

[@PaintsOnA4Up]

I thought the exact same 😂 I read the title and went “wow they edited that quickly” thinking it was about the price hike 😂

[@shanatokisaki4596]

I was gonna comment about the price hike its got my play group up in arms and the wording of the announcement was so bad XD

[@ka5141]

@poiujnbvcxdswq tbh as well, on many products, gw aren't even expensive (thinking multi mini boxes) - you can easily end up working out about 3 quid a mini, which is a good price for anything. The problem for me has always been the individual minis. 25. 30 quid for one mini? Ouch

[@jamalhussain9162]

I am getting a slight low buzz in the background from the video that I don't believe its due to my setup. Might be worth double-checking the next video for it.

[@thepaintingphase]

We think we know what it was but thanks for the heads up, it’s appreciated.

[@esaedvik]

Condolences on your loss, Pat. Take your time, do what you enjoy and hug all the great people around you.

[@ao-b2774]

Loving the addition FauxHammer, would be good if they can be a proper member of the team, doing the interviews also. The 3-presenter chemistry really works.

[@thepaintingphase]

You never know……

[@FauxHammer]

@@thepaintingphase I think I know...

[@guleri]

Gaunts Ghosts are a great series, also the Ciaphas Caine books (more humour, and probably the only "cowardly" hero in the 40K universe). And since this episode has been a lot about females vs malesI have to say that I also like the books about Minka Lesk. I agree with you thet the best thing for GW would be to say that "Female Custodes exist now" istead of "they have alwyas been there". As long as they give us good models, I don't really care about their gender. There will always be a way to make the lore fit the current situation. Maybe they could not create female Marines before, that desn't mean that it is not possible now. We didn't have Primaris Marines before either, but we do now. Just my two cents worth...

[@jimmyjamwhambam]

hmmm, i'd say you got that part about Ripley wrong. 3rd act, absolutey she becomes a mother and does what any mother would do and move heaven and earth to protect her young.... 2nd act all the marines are shell shcoked and scared, and she steps up becuase she has been through that before. The marines didn't listen to her or heed her warning so act 2 is where she becomes the natural leader, but I wouldn''t say it was her motherly instincts kicking in, more just her will to survive.

[@thewellandvalley2103]

Yes, terrible take on one of the greatest heroes in modern film history. Ripley is a well-rounded character showing a variety of attributes, weaknesses, virtues and growth on different fronts. The rather shallow feminist-lens interpretation of ‘oh, she has to be a mother figure’ is a very tired one.

[@jimmyjamwhambam]

@@thewellandvalley2103 yeah I could talk aliens all day! There certainly is that element though, the film becomes two mothers fighting for their broods, but agree, it's very reductive of an amazing character that takes all her learnings and motivation from the previous film into this. Being a mother is just another layer to her.

[@thewellandvalley2103]

@@jimmyjamwhambam Totally - and the idea that it is somehow a negative thing to have a strong female character demonstrate maternal qualities is bewildering, but very much a sign of where we currently are in our culture.

[@jimmyjamwhambam]

@@thewellandvalley2103 I think they were saying that it was a trope but again I disagree! I can't think of many genre films with firstly, a woman lead and one that can both stand up to the men around her without being stronger than them or humiliating them, and which can demonstrate her feminine strengths also! One of greatest characters ever created!

[@thewellandvalley2103]

@@jimmyjamwhambam As I said, a woman demonstrating maternal instincts and protective qualities is sort of not a trope in my view?!? Are they saying that writers should actively avoid having women characters demonstrating maternal instincts because that’s a trope or stereotyping? Truly bizarre. And as you say, it is just one aspect of her character.

[@MotleySprueminiatures]

Firstly like to offer my condolences on your loss Pat, sorry to hear this. It’s also nice to hear rational talk about female Custodes without having someone else’s strong opinion (either way)forced down my throat - personally I couldn’t give a shiny squig s**t if there are female Custodes, and if it leads to more cool miniatures to paint then great! I do however feel that Gee Dubs should have had the balls to do it properly if they were going to do it, and release the models alongside it- even making that new shield Captain a female would have been something.

[@TimothyMarshall88]

Condolences Patrick. What you’ve been going through puts the stupid internet rage really into perspective. Ross is a great compliment to you and Geoff.

[@thepaintingphase]

Thanks so on Pat’s behalf and as for Ross, we loves him.

[@ClydeMillerWynant]

I know mentioning stuff from 37 years ago might get people of a certain persuasion shouting 'House', but just on the ethnicity of space marines over time I can't help but point out that in the very first Index Astartes (Ultramarines in WD97) at least two of the ten main characters described are East Asians (putting aside that they're all actually from planets other than earth of course) and some of the others it's not entirely clear what their ethnicity is. While we're at it one of them is a Romanian tennis player from the 1970s (he's also half-Eldar as it happens).

[@thepaintingphase]

Some great blasts from the past. Nice post.

[@Dementia55372]

The Infinite and the Divine is the best 40k book and it's about the best 40k faction. The Fabius Bile trilogy is also very good.

[@GrayPrimer]

Ross - if you like TV shows like Band of Brothers and Generation Kill, then the Gaunt's Ghosts novel series could be a good fit for you. As a bonus it's incredible on Audible.

[@FauxHammer]

I have heard that from a few people now. And I love BoB. Ok I think this comment was the tipping point. I’ll give it a go xxxx

[@simonturner6734]

I think what Patrick has gone through recently puts a lot of this nonsense into perspective. He's right, there's much bigger issues to get p***ed off about.

[@blisterfingers8169]

When discussing how the Sisters of Battle are apparently sexualised by saying we could be like Vasquez instead but implying we must have short hair, dress like men and act like men to not be sexualised is very insulting. I shared my negative opinion on female custodes online and the amount of men calling me a misogynist was very interesting. After hearing you guys talk for 25 minutes I honestly suspect you're those kind of men. You might not have said it to me but you'd probably think it so I'm tuning out now. As those who pushed this shit into GW like to say.. Do better. Quick edit cause I remembered something. Early on you say how the majority of the negative feedback was people stating that they didn't like the lore changed this way. You said you didn't like the lore changed this way. You then described the group saying that as misogynists spitting their vitriol. So you did call me a misogynist but you also called yourselves that. idk what to think!

[@mevl4822]

Great video as always gentleman, missed a few episodes and have to catch up. Missed you guys, my British painting buddies.

[@kennethphillips6006]

I agree the paucity of bits in recent GW kits is heartbreaking. Much like the Deathwing Command kit, the DA Company Veterans were also so great for providing plastic to customize an army and kitbash even with other factions. Best thing I did when starting with Warhammer was buy many Deathwing boxes. Damn shame they don’t have rules now.

[@elgrifolorian]

Every one makes their own lore for their armies, this just shows some of the fan base true ugly colors. Im still going to be painting my space lizards lead by a cowboy hat wearing Rogue Trader. I cant be bothered to use gw rules or lore for any of my minis I make my own.

[@j4ksx]

Totally. My terraforming company of synthetic men led by my own Rogue Trader have been living happily in their own corner of the universe and on a necron cryptworld at that! Go figure.

[@ctnimmo]

Emperor BlackAdder suddenly found Custodes Bob strangely attractive

[@jurriaandejongh8677]

B O B

[@thepaintingphase]

🤣🤣🤣

[@thepaintingphase]

😂😂😂

[@johnturner2629]

Ross is everywhere right now!

[@FauxHammer]

Even here…

[@Yavinprints]

Lucy being relatable is also she's you when you play the game, waltzing out the vault all bright eyed.

[@RealJA1904]

Great show as always, I’ve reached the point where I have to ration out the show so I can enjoy throughout the week.

[@MarcSkelton-r7v]

I don't play the game and have watched from a distance since second edition. I don't understand why any of this is a big shock or surprise to anyone. Games Workshop ceased to be a 'Games Company' in the 90's and are purely a 'Miniatures Company' 40k from what I can see is a poorly designed game shaped with a soul purpose of selling more miniatures. Be it through constant edition changes, nerfs, cancelling models/armies, OP model's, bizarre lore changes everything they do in game and lore terms is there purely to sell more and more models. Most of which ends up sitting in boxes of sprue because they move so quickly no one has the chance to keep up with the fomo and painting and assembling it all. I won't be jumping on the train any time soon but wow the shows one helluva watch 😂

[@CorruptedQuill]

while talking about inflation is maybe a little relevant to their pricing.. the bigger part is the massive profit margins they are getting which have continued to go up

[@davijoe2002]

Any time a Rogal Dorn get mentioned I scream “PLASTIC MACHARIUS!!” at the screen. Sigh..

[@joerobinson88]

@Pat sorry to hear you lost your father. He was clearly a great man as he raised an excellent son. I’m sure he was very proud of you bud. ❤

[@cabe_bedlam]

I really liked Darius Hinks' Leviathan tie in novel. Nice easy read and the scale is kept pretty small, not much bouncing around the Imperium.

[@PaintsOnA4Up]

Darius Hinks is a fantastic writer! Love his stuff

[@WillMorrey]

As always, loved the show. I like having a mix of serious talk and lightweight chatter. Sincere condolences to Pat and family. 🫶🏻 I think GW’s handling of the “there’s always been female Custodes” could have been better, but I’m happy from both lore and personal perspective that they’re canon. I’m sure there’s ackchyually a nugget of old lore that talks about the Custodes being the Emperor’s own children (being both boys, girls and maybe even non-binary, had that lore maybe been more recently written in real world terms) from His time amongst humanity over the millennia, though I’ll be devilled if I can recall which materials to use as citations. I’m one of those that think the introduction of tue Primaris could have been used to make Astartes geneseed compatible with females (“fem people”? I’m reminded of the great episode with Ruby). There were enough changes regarding implants and processes in creating Primaris instead of Firstborn that additional fluff could have been developed to officially support female Astartes too… I do feel it a swing and a miss to not have them now (I know there’s Adepta Sororitas, Sisters of Silence and finally now female Guard and Custodes). I would maintain the old lore as Firstborn Astartes were/are male only, given the official lore stated endlessly how it was all that was possible. Primaris onwards could well have been female too with a little more narrative work on GW’s part and I’m a bit disappointed it wasn’t done. That said, if a given hobbyist (a gender neutral term) wants to make all male, all female or mixed Astartes or Firstborn and/or Primaris… so be it, it’s their hobby too. Who knows, maybe some Ad Mech Biologis types (whether related or not to Cawl’s secret works) tried founding one or more Firstborn and/or Primaris Chapters using female or mixed male _and_ female recruits… the 40K setting is so thoroughly vast that the experiments could have been attempted somewhere, and how much success or failure could lead to other narrative hooks for such a Chapter’s background fluff. I realise I’ve spun away from just female Custodes to also female Astartes, but I’ve always considered them extensions of the same debate. I don’t want to take away from how staggeringly awesome Adepta Sororitas, Sisters of Silence, female assassins, female Guard, female Inquisitors, etc. are, but rather add to it.

[@WillMorrey]

I typed that as a 36yo white male having just watched three other white males discussing it… 🙄🤦🏼‍♂️😁

[@thepaintingphase]

Thanks so much for your thoughts and thanks for such a well written and balanced post.

[@Roeland666]

Spanish guy here, the austrian painter dude was just a troll who wasnt very skilled, looking for other ways to win (wind up the opponents). Basically another WAAC dude.

[@OldManRogers]

Sorry to hear about your Dad Pat :-(

[@ForgottenLabyrinth]

Cheers guys, good takes.

[@_Loken]

I'll be honest, I saw far more people complaining about people complaining about female custodes than people actually complaining about female custodes, by orders of magnitude.

[@FauxHammer]

you know, you could be right...

[@pineomt]

Best show since Pinkie dropped. I do think this podcast is improved with a third voice.

[@Rickydrinkspaint]

My condolences, to you and your family Patrick. ❤

[@replikanty]

Black Legion: Talon of Horus

[@BigBlueLuke85]

Sorry for your loss Patrick. I’m not the sharpest of knives but I think people are quick to emotion online, especially over things that they love and are involved in. Look at football for example - a terrible decision will be the talk of the town for a brief period of time and then it will fizzle out but In that moment it’s life or death. Did Geedubs fumble the delivery of the message? absolutely. Would half of the people that have said a load of that horrible shit say that in public? Probably not. If they’d dropped a set of books following a group of Sisters of battle running skirmishes or something along those lines that people could follow and enjoy I think that would be a better way of lubing people up. We’re talking a story with loads of character development on a level of eisenhorn and finish it up with a story about one of thee crew that succeeds in some epic feat, is fiercely wounded and the end of the book was her becoming a custode - I’d be into that. “It’s this now, lolz” is grating but let’s just try to be better before spitting the dummy and behaving like cunts

[@Artecius92]

For me personally it was just being shoe-horned in and that sisters of silence willl be forced to the wayside. Sisters could have been expanded upon and given some awesome new models, give them some heavy weapons and vehicles to offset the custodes and replace the forgeworld models. GW instead went "Femstodes lol" for an easy win. As far as the Space Marine 2 thing. The main point was the lead writer was very anti-cis white males and has made several toxic comments about white males and how she hates them. This is the person who has written stories for a game that's sold to predominately white males. So a lot of people are cancelling their pre-orders over that. Unfortunately for some people due to how politicized trans has become it is now a factor for some peoples purchasing power. Then there has been writers coming out making comments about the comminity etc which have not been taken well. A new novel which has a transitioning character in it. So a lot of people are feeling like warhammer is getting "Rings of Powered" and one of the reason why it's happened is due to Amazon trying to raise ESG scores. Which has caused leaks about Henry potentially leaving the TV series which caused it to explode further than normal. For me I just don't want politics in my wargame. Warhammer is a grim dark future. None of the current politics really make sense there. You'd get shot or killed off trying to act like any of us do. I just want it to be kept the grim dark nonsense escapism that I like.

[@almost_zab]

The gaunts ghosts series is great too.

[@AlyxAu]

It's just beyond horrific calling someone a "thing" and saying they deserve a concentration camp.

[@thepaintingphase]

It’s horrific, can’t believe we’re still at this point in the 21st Century. Geoff

[@captaincosmo6157]

I do not believe that trans is a phenomenon of people being born in the wrong body. I think it is an absurd idea. I have lots of opinions against transgenderism. But calling a human a thing and wishing them in concentration camps is beyond something I would ever dream of saying. Disagreement is fine. Wishing ill on others simply for holding a different opinion is not

[@PhosPhryne]

These are the same people who will claim they are the good guys and that they are the logical ones not letting emotions control their thoughts as and that they are on the 'right side of history'. Again - The people mad about women existing and calling for people who don't care/like that women exist to be put into concentration camps think they are the good guys fighting a good fight.

[@ccgear4367]

42:00 “I don’t get why they care so much any more” - these kinds of people don’t actually care. They just want to hate on people they don’t like.

[@huwtindall7096]

I don't think we've ever had an example of "first world problems" more than the case of "someone wrote a short story about my toy soliders that I don't like".

[@laurentderrien]

you surely didn't sweat much answering to the easiest strawman you could think of

[@Optionvideo209]

It's the principle. It undermines the entire collection of lore. They can add new stuff, add whatever they want but if you try to change what was already established for virtue signaling points or because zionists at Amazon wanted you to do it, it's lame and it's souled out af.

[@JawaBob]

@@Optionvideo209 Its just mon-keigh singin songs mate

[@mikefranklin7347]

I love when people say “first world problems” because it acknowledges how awful third world countries are.

[@sameerdodger]

@@Optionvideo209 "Zionists"? ahahah you went from 0 to nazi pretty quickly there mate, you're not meant to say the quiet part out loud.

[@Akiosama1009]

“Is there a model?” I suppose there could be? I’ve seen enough media where women wear male (unisex?) armor, and seen enough complaints about the objectification and impracticality of female shaped armor to say, yes, there could already have been female Custodes? Just no female named Character Custodian models yet. Doesn’t mean I don’t agree that GW didn’t handle it well. Just pointing out the possibility.

[@piotrjeske4599]

I was thinking which one could it be , went on to a wild ride rememberin all the hungarians, poles , czechs etc who were technicaly Austrian too. And it is just Hitler meh, that is what l get for having a specialisation in museology.

[@christopherharrington1031]

Is Ross the new regular. He was great on the last podcast.

[@almurray7178]

It not that there is female flavor of space marine it is the fact people are fed up with the gender politics. And it is always a over reaction by a few who are just LOUD.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Saying that you shouldn’t be cognisant of female representation is in itself gender politics

[@Astartesdave]

I love how you spent a good chunk of time intelligently discussing the delivery of messages, as GW smash out the price increase posts with the same panache as custodes 😂 Hopefully for discussion on the next session. Title - "How do I boycott stuff I cant afford" 😂😂 brilliant work as ever chaps, keep it up. Am enjoying fauxhammers input 👍

[@JawaBob]

Great take, nice to see cool heads prevail on this one. Love the podcast, you guys are first class!

[@WardenOfTerra]

It's definitely gender politics, as they've changed it from 'A Brother hood of Demigods' to 'A Gathering of Demigods' lol

[@edwardmills4164]

For book recommendations, ive been reading the dawn of fire series which kicks off some of the primaris lore. They make gulliman a great character, and there are some good perspectives from normal humans in both the imperium and chaos. Id recommend it. Also The Lion, Son of the Forest is excellent.

[@jabbasleftnut1530]

Jeff just wants to watch the world burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@thepaintingphase]

😂😂😂

[@CaptainComatose]

17:30 as far as I remember early John Blanche artwork showed Custodies in armour.

[@RobTheWarGaymer]

I have to disagree with Ross when he says that Warhammer was is the most inclusive and no one cares what you have going on. I agree that at large events and tournament's, people are incredibly welcoming and accepting. But online and at the local level, this just isn't the lived experience for many of us.

[@thepaintingphase]

I’m really sorry that, that’s your experience. It’s really not how I want my hobbies to be - Geoff

[@RobTheWarGaymer]

Also, good book suggestion is Storm of Iron.

[@davidea12]

I think that's a you problem, not your local area.

[@redsven7624]

Overall a balanced approach, to me I do think it may be underplayed that there is a section of the community (As there is in any section of humanity) where this is purely down to the gender issue. I don't care, personally, and the negative side of me is amused at people getting so unreasonably irate over small stuff, particularly when the world will give you plenty to be angry about. All the noise doesn't affect GW, they are a PLC that will notice when it hits the bottom line. I have ceased to value Warhammer lore as I don't rate narratives for wargames in general and prefer settings. Plus they alter it so much to fit whatever the current focus is it has lost value, if it can be anything then it is equally nothing. So now I don't buy the majority of the books and am not bother by the development in codexes. Speaking of the bottom line, I will call Russ out on the inflation thing a company that paid out £136 million in dividends is making £136 million more than operating and investment costs, so when they say we have done everything to keep costs low it stuffers from the given we are a plc caveat. Hobby value is subjective and if you see the worth in the product then you will continue buying it. Personally the kroot being a great example per the recent 5% announcement it was right on the cusp of my value limit, so now after the AoS 4 launch box I am not going to be starting new projects. That is just me but I play a lot of systems, I personally find other systems are higher on my list to play and I am as happy if not happier painting other models. Plus if you cannot die with unpainted models I may see the heat death of the universe. While nowhere near as prevalent in terms of player base I will now buy into whole new systems cheaper than I can buy a combat patrol or spearhead. Given the economic climate though it does pose a risk, if a sufficient number of players hit the tipping point sales could drop, I am not forecasting doom but it could certainly hit that dividend.

[@AlyxAu]

(Sarcasm engaged) As someone who has loved the game since 2nd edition, I'm personally horrified that they changed the lore that space marines are no longer horrifically xenophobic, drug addled, prisoners, who are hypno-conditioned into xenocidal and fanatic rage. (sarcasm disengaged) GW has always made changes to the lore by saying, they've allways been there, and frankly I'm fine with this! Retcons, or changes, or movement to different focuses is great. Frankly, even though the edition I currently play the most is still 2nd with my oldhammer friends, Custodes getting women? Great, that's cool for you!

[@thewellandvalley2103]

When every IP embraces ‘diversity and inclusion’ our imaginative worlds will all be bound and flavoured by contemporary values and identities. They will all start to feel the same and lose much of the resonance they once had. It will also never be enough for those initiating changes to decades old lore. I think that many who object over a seemingly small thing like ‘female custodes’ are concerned that a beloved IP, rather than being allowed to be itself, is subject to rather fickle tides of activist pressure. I am all for a diversity of very different imaginative worlds, but not every imaginative world should have to abide by identity quotas to reflect modern life.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

The imperium is xenophobic, fascist, authoritarian, violent, brutal, feudalistic etc - but it makes sense that even in that society, by that far in the future, humanity would have outgrown current-day racism and misogyny - the imperium wouldn’t care about gender, they’d care about results - all humans make corpse starch just the same, and all suitable toddlers can be turned into effective custodes no matter what sex they are, the genes are crafted to do it. Space marines are male because of states science reasons, but that could well be in-universe propaganda and it’s really because they want to leave females in place to have more kids to feed the machine. They’re aren’t enough custodes for the same consideration to apply to them though

[@Grrizz84]

Book recommendation: The Infinite and the Divine Not just one of my favourite 40K books but one of my favourites in general 😊

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Night Lords is an amazing omnibus

[@seano4822]

I'm fine with changing lore or doing retcons. Majority of 40k armies are either both genders, or have no gender. I personally own a Sisters of Battle army. To do so in an obviously politically driven decision, gaslight people saying there always was such a thing, and all for a change that will bring no one new to the hobby is just stupid. Makes no sense statistically that there are thousands of people who were never going to play 40k unless they made Custodes also female which last I checked the custodes have a female set of minis called the sisters of silence. If anyone asks "why do you care?", why did you care so much that you had to change something that means nothing?

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

It wasn’t gaslighting, they just stated the retcon. And I think it’s good to have female characters who are superhuman without being nuns or soulless and silent

[@seano4822]

@@HistoritorJimaldus I don't see a problem with nun superhumans when the space marines are monks. That is the point of 40k, very religious churchy humans. If you want female superhumans just cause you want female superhumans then there are other settings (or other armies) that are not gothic churchy settings. That does not mean changing lore should be done. I also disagree this is good. Unless followed up by a reason, something is not good just cause you think its good. Retcons should actually serve a purpose, like bringing more sales, more models, phase in new space marine scale (primaris) etc. This just divides the community. Lost warhammer+ subs, drove people out, and the only people who say its good are people like you who I'm assuming already buys or owns models, or people who never play to begin with.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@seano4822 the sisters aren’t superhuman though, except Celestine. And maybe the change will bring more sales or models, let’s see. Everyone hated on primaris at first. The only reason people are hating on female custodes is because they’ve been trained to hate anything ‘woke’, irrespective of the quality, let’s be honest. Thats why the right-wing grifters lied and pretended that ‘gaslighting’ happened too, to stir up more clicks and anger

[@r31n0ut]

Ross, go read Ciaphas Cain. it's a very different vibe from most 40k books. I've been told it's inspired by Sharpe (never seen that myself) but there's a lot of blackadder in there too.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Gaunt’s Ghosts is more Sharpe, Cain is blackadder or Flashman

[@r31n0ut]

@@HistoritorJimaldus I thought gaunt's ghosts was more Band of Brothers.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@r31n0ut that too, but the theme of a specialist unit fighting against superiors as much as the enemy is very Sharpe

[@wintermute4978]

Cain is definitely Flashman

[@r31n0ut]

@@HistoritorJimaldus That sounds fun, maybe I should watch it sometime.

[@Jeremy1041]

You got it right Pat, it should have been introduced in a novella with a model before putting it in the codex. The problem was GW doing their seemingly typical ham fisted job of introducing new concepts or ranges into the lore and game

[@MHR1001]

@Fauxhammer some will discount but have a go with Ian Watsons early stuff, EG Space Marine and then the Draco trilogy (Inquisition Wars?)

[@FauxHammer]

Thanks man

[@Jurvin64]

Try Reading bloodquest comic as a small start 😊 When it comes to books, I would recommend the Dark Imperium series. 3 books with a good story about ultramarines vs death guard. And audiobooks are always a win for me, listening them in transit to/from work or before bed

[@raese4076]

To be honest I think this has been a bit of a perfect storm. 1. First people get upset that they get a single pretty bad looking miniature when half of their range is still in resin. 2. Then they get a terrible codex at the same time as the Ork codex which is good so even more people get upset. 3. Then the leak happens about female Custodes and more people get upset. 4. Finally the tweet happens and even more people get upset. its like four separate things people are upset about, and far from everyone is upset about all of those things, but people get put into a single box, "oh you are all upset about females in your army" I think this could have been handled better, I mean its a great opportunity chance for kitbashing, but even if they only released an cool new female model together with a book or short story that explain how there are now female custodes then at least half of the people that are complaining would be happy. The people upset about females Custodes were always going to be upset no matter what GW did so there isent much they can do about that. Then we have the people complaining about "tourists" in the hobby, if we want to talk about tourists. The number of small youtube channels that suddenly poped up complaining about female custodes... These seem to be channels that have never done any warhammer content and their videos are full of basic lore mistakes so its doubtful that they have done more then glance at a warhammer wiki. As for the people trying to exclude the "woke people" to be fair to them, if you go looking a lot of people on the "woke side" are being just as stupid, wanting to exlude anyone that is not like them. So both sides are being stupid in the "culture war"

[@Alex_Anti]

Truth told. Truth ignored. Sad story.

[@videohead5916]

I'm writing this here since the PP seems reasonable. My Custodes take or "GW management doesn't understand its own lore" Warhammer is aimed at selling the most minis. That's held up by 3 legs: The minis themselves as paintable objects, gaming pieces, and at manifestations of the lore. Many people fall only into the first two legs of the strategy, and for good reason. Minis and the gaming with them are the most developed part of the IP since it's been founded. Lore for the first 15-20 years, was a background noise giving texture and loose direction. As people have pointed out, the first decade or so of 40K lore was pretty loosie goosey. But that's no longer the case. Starting around the Gaunt books, and picking up around the Heresy, Lore has become much more developed, set and important to more people. There are whole groups who just read the novels, and don't interact with the mini product much or even at all. Treating the lore like it's still 1996, and changing things willy nilly to sell hypothetical minis, is well dumb. And making 40k a "nicer" more representative place, loses the allure of the product as a whole for people who were initially attracted to the lore. It's not disastrous, but it is troubling sign of an "anyway the wind blows" attitude. It unreliable. Which is bad. I liken it to Lucas changing it so "Han shot second". Yes, it makes Han a "nicer" person, but that misunderstands the character, and his allure. It also is ham-fisted and shows a lack of respect to those who like the lore of that franchise. My negatives feelings, which is just really an increased skepticism is mostly linked to the lore. With other franchises, where I am uninvested in lore, like the parabellum or black site studios products, I mostly just buy things that look cool, (male or female, or dinosaur) and paint them. But also, because of the lack of lore, I buy far fewer or them. Anyways, enjoyed the podcast, though I think us lore lovers get short shrift.

[@bobbler42]

On tales to tell: given the"warhammr is satire" line, this strikes me as an excellent opportunity to introduce a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy for the custodes, i.e. whatever the babies recruited look like, they all get turned into identical dench megawarriors. One more mark of individualism erased to let the state carry on on its merry way. And such subsumation could be extended to names and pronouns, so that there is always a gap between how they are perceived and whatever is under the lids. Plus if power armour is like a still suit, the toilet issue does not arise.

[@MSPaints]

Paint phase crash helmet. Amaaaaaaazing!

[@thepaintingphase]

Coming from ‘Kings of the Props’, I’m honoured!

[@AlexCopeMusic]

Fifteen Hours is a brilliant 40K story about a Guardsman. There's no audiobook though. For Audio, the Gotrek and Felix series is great and the Ghazghkull book is perfect!

[@khi-jonchua985]

I came for the 40k soap drama ad reads but got 40k twitter drama instead :

[@thepaintingphase]

Sorry, it can’t be amazing every time 😉

[@Taranthis]

Sorry for your loss Pat and thank you for a sensible conversation....

[@HelmetPohl]

You been hitting the gym Pat? Looking Whamasaurus Rex. Lifts for the lift god!

[@thepaintingphase]

I did hit the buffet at an all inclusive...

[@slimehousetv]

Best day of the week 💪💪💪

[@Linzoid6]

I'm not so worried about Women Custodes and the shoehorning of it in the codex was really weak and disrespectful (nicely discussed by the way guys) but it's more that GW would roll over and let Amazon dictate these changes which I despise! Happy to sell out the 'law' for a buck... pathetic and a slap in the face to your loyal customers!

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

It’s not been confirmed that any changes were dictated by Amazon

[@coreymorse1347]

Even if the Amazon thing ends up being true, that's GW... Every lore change they've made is because they think it will make them more money. GW has always been happy to sell out anything for a buck. That's the only piece of lore that is actually sacred for GW.

[@Linzoid6]

@@coreymorse1347 Fair point

[@stevenpaxton7331]

You can do that with custodies because they haven't been a player army for a only eight years. We still don't know what makes the custodies different from space marine or primarch or thunder warrior. All we know of them, is that are start on the Change to the custodies very young. But to even to think the a custodies are human anymore is also daft.

[@ethercarp]

It used to be that Custodes were shirtless and wore leather pants. The gold power armor was a retcon.

[@daniellogue8365]

They probably scoop all the unnecessary reproductive organs out anyway to make room for the extra set of lungs/heart/etc, so they could also just be genderless

[@tjv2446]

I drink black coffee...wtf do I qualify as?

[@FauxHammer]

Ultra-Boy

[@thepaintingphase]

Very awake?

[@BlaueCookieFan]

At least (for now?) marines are still confirmed to be boys only. I do seem to remember the Custodes were supposed to just be the "sons" of terran nobles, but it was a much less established piece of lore than the space marines. So, all in all, a "meh" move, made worse by the very bad handling of it on social media. Not the end of the world, though.

[@JBrown_Trivium]

I'm a custodes player. I love the lore etc. I CAN get my head round and start to like the idea of female custodians, HOWEVER, GWs attitude post leak was disgusting. Gas lighting the fans by claiming "we never said their weren't female custodes! They've always been here" Yet they never mentioned it before and NEVER supplied female heads for the models.

[@Raygun9000]

58:30 this is just outright false though. The previous custodes lore had them as sons of Terran nobles, and all depictions and refrences are of them as male. Unless we assume they play pronoun games in the 41M.

[@Morrodin182]

There is a single snippet of lore in a single codex where they are referred to as sons of Terran nobles. To keep pointing towards it is the same as people saying 'but there have always been female space marines, look at those models from when it was still rogue trader.' There was no lore that explicitly stated women were incompatible and even if the 'average' Custodes is a Terran noble and they are in general recruited from them, there are still outliers possible.

[@Raygun9000]

@Morrodin182 that's a little silly. You are comparing lore written during a prototype phase of the 40k universe that was quickly dropped along with a myriad of other concepts to established lore in a recent codex. But more than this, since 2004 at the latest, the custodes have been depicted as they are now, as men.

[@PaintsOnA4Up]

Fully thought this was a podcast which was going to discuss the price hike 😂 I thought you guys had edited this VERY quickly 😂 oh the irony! It’s not lost on me 😂

[@tethys17]

I'm not bothered by women in 40k, ive painted some sisters of battle and sisters of silence are cool but I am bothered with their lazy way to change the lore by saying "its always been like that" when it obviously hasn't become they're always referred to as men and sons. Im even more bothered by the fact that they only did it because Amazon told them too. On a side note I think its really ironic they sent out a warhammer is for everyone tweet because they wanted to single out somebody they want to exclude.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

We don’t know why they did it, Amazon was a 4chan rumour. And that’s the way retcons have always been done in the past (with the exception of primaris)

[@tethys17]

@@HistoritorJimaldus Rumours are all we have to go on so far. This would be a very short video if they just said "we don't know anything officially". The rumours we have though are that Amazon wanted female space marines (which ironically have been around in the 80s) but GW settled for female custodes. Also that people who are working on it hate the source material, the same as rings of power and the witcher and they chose custodes in particular to annoy Cavil. All rumours but based on previous projects and leaks all plausible. If Amazon really wanted a strong female lead they could have made any of the existing female characters the protagonist but for maximum diversity and accurate lore they could have done Age of Sigmar.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@tethys17 well the time to get bothered about a rumour is when it’s proven to be true - that hasn’t happened here

[@tethys17]

@@HistoritorJimaldus if its proven to be true then its a fact not a rumour. The point of the video is a discussion. None of these three are involved in production of the show or official Warhammer lore.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@tethys17 exactly we should only give time to discussing facts not baseless rumours

[@ishitrealbad3039]

4:51 i wouldn't say the "drama" or "Anger" has toned down, I mean the people who are in the hobby and disliked the change aren't going away. As a matter of fact, i've seen a lot of positive 3d printing posts coming from Twitter. A lot of people are really embracing it, even to the point of printing stuff for their friends for free.... things that GW would charge you 40-100bucks for.

[@MarkOfTzeentch]

why does the cast look like 3 generations: Geoff is grand father, Patrick the dad and other guy (sorry missed your name) is the son

[@thepaintingphase]

That’s harsh Ross is older than Pat, where as I’m actually really old - Geoff

[@FauxHammer]

@@thepaintingphase Shut up, I'm taking it!

[@thepaintingphase]

Pat! Pat! Pat! Ross is trying to be your Son!

[@FauxHammer]

@@thepaintingphase I just want to call him Daddy

[@MarkOfTzeentch]

@@FauxHammer I knew i'd like you.. sorry for forgetting your name.. @thepaintingphase I was going off face and beard.. Baby Bear with.. well can you call that scruff, a beard? then Mommy Bear with a fuller, albeit ginger, beard and then Grandpappi Bear with a majestic salt and peppered mane..

[@matjov]

Their way of answering was condescending. It reeks of Disney-fication. Plenty of women in 40K, it's a diverse IP, not as if there weren't any women in important roles.

[@matjov]

Plus there's a difference between hating GW and hating the game.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

A great point I heard it that this is the first superhuman female that isn’t a nun or a silent soulless blank

[@matjov]

@@HistoritorJimaldus Arda could be described as super human. There's even a female Captain of the flagship of the World Eaters. Assassins. Inquisitors. Saints.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@matjov Arda isn’t playable. Those others are baseline human (Callidus are basically pinups)- this is the first genecrafted female. Lotara Sarrin is awesome though - and she was written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who wanted to put in female custodes

[@matjov]

@@HistoritorJimaldus what has "being playable" to do with anything? And what makes Lotara awesome? Calling a Callidus a pin-up seems a bit sexist, and saying that Inquisitors and Saints are baseline is flat out wrong.

[@almost_zab]

Things people should remember, including gw: once GW releases something, it stops being theirs and becomes yours. So you buy it and its yours and enjoy it how you like. Ignore what you don't like. That's why people still play second ed 40k, mordhiem and wfb. You want gold plated muscle mommies, go for it, you don't then don't. Its your hobby, find your group and enjoy it your way ;)

[@r31n0ut]

I am noticing a lot of youtube videos from the 'aaah the wokes are taking over' side that clearly don't know or care about warhammer and get really basic shit wrong jumping on this. As for the 'retcons are bad' argument, I dunno. It's not a bad argument in and of itself (though if you don't like retcons, maybe pick a different IP than warhammer because they happen all the damn time), but it mostly seems to come out when there's gender politics involved, which makes me think that it's not actually the retcons they care about.

[@DannyQM]

Yeah I agree, nobody cares when its a new tank being retconned into existence.

[@sameerdodger]

Totally, the lore is just a veil to hide their misogynistic views. If a hot girl walked into their GW store they'd probably have a heart attack.

[@WithTheGrain]

I am irritated with the “they have always been there” tweet when they weren’t always there. BUT! I really don’t care about the change to add female custodes- GW just needed to be honest that it’s a change without being too cute about it…

[@r31n0ut]

@@WithTheGrain I think it was a dumb thing to tweet, but it was also obvious that what it meant was 'our new lore position is that they were always there', not 'we secretly always MEANT they were there, we just never had any in the books'. Anyone saying GW is 'gaslighting' on this issue is just being massively disingenuous.

[@rononel8046]

​@@DannyQMbut what you've got to remember is that "Tanks and mechsuits are just pieces of equipment, THEY don't matter if they're retconned" and "Tanks aren't retconned for ideological reasons" 🤣🤪🙄

[@JasonWood-h1w]

Thank you for a good adult conversation. Irony that one of your last episodes was “When will Warhammer be Mainstream” and you release this the same day GW announces another price hike.

[@guerrillavanilla]

The like/dislike ratio tells you the temperature on the issue

[@akumaking1]

What’s the current ratio?

[@rgbminiatures]

Another great discussion from you guys. Personally I don’t see it as an issue, having female custodes certainly doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It wasn’t something I was desperate to have included but it also doesn’t bother me now it’s a thing. If anything it just gives more options for people which can only be a good thing in my opinion. My condolences to you Pat, I hope you’re doing well.

[@jackdavenport4303]

Its such a shame seeing so many right wing grifters drifting into the hobby space to leverage this sort of shit.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Yep, it was funny hearing the Quartering guy failing to correctly pronounce Custodes fifteen times though 😂

[@yagsipcc287]

Remember guys if you dont lick the boot you are a *checks notes* "A right wing grifter" now pay up little piggy

[@walt_man]

Hi, Painting Phae. It's now September 8th, 2024. And I still don't know who the female Custodes audience is? But hey, less is more I guess. Even if the lore becomes watered down tea, where know one even knows what brand of tea it is or which one is best.... Update: My Condolences Patrick. Eff Cancer! I have a critically ill close relative as well, and it's indeed heavy and tough. Powerlessness to change a decline is a ride I wouldn't wish on anyone, even the Austrian Painter guy. Little bit of humor there.. In the end, thoe hobby IS escapism for us nerds who were social pariahs, and it needs to remain escapism to remain.. well, fun.

[@trystongilbert1837]

It wouldn't have changed anything if they had made the lore different, having Kawl do it, etc. Like in your example with the Rogal Dorn Tank, the thing that the chuds are mad about isn't the retcon. They'd grumble and shout about women being added to a faction no matter how you packaged it.

[@CJ-kw8vc]

I asked my 18 year old daughter her opinion on the female custodes (she collects templars) she thinks it’s stupid and a cheap attempt at woke pandering similar to many other franchises recently. Her issue wasn’t that there is a female it’s the fudged up retcon just slapped on the page and whoever asks what the hell is going on is all of a sudden a far right cry baby. I raised my daughter well. I personally hold a similar opinion, it’s not the change it’s the way it’s just chucked out there for no other obvious reason other than to pander to people who don’t have an interest in Warhammer. My youngest daughter (9 years old) loves painting with me and has never once asked for a female miniature to paint, she has access to them but gravitates towards male minis anyway or something as she puts it “monstery”

[@IamtheWV17]

Doing God's work ❤️

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

We don’t know the reason why they made the change - but we do know authors wanted it

[@ishitrealbad3039]

16:51 if the lore is there to sell miniatures why aren't there female custodes minis released than? The lore is as part of the hobby as painting, that's why there are DOZENS of books. Someone enjoying the hobby can be a fan of the books, but maybe not so much of a fan of tabletop. Someone enjoying the hobby can be a fan of the tabletop, but maybe not so much of a fan of the books. come on guys, this isn't such a hard concept to grasp.

[@dekyras]

Another great video - and completely agree with the points raised and the conclusions reached. Good to see Ross on the show again too

[@FauxHammer]

You’ll get fed up of me before long…

[@Jarlegand]

Okay gonna be honest, didnt like some of your takes or portrayal of information, and overall I'm against this new lore change. Thing is, I was against most of the changes since primaris and Cawl. Technological degradation is one of the concepts I really adore in the universe and I hate it being thrown out the window just to explain new models. Now that the whole female custodes thing happened I would like to be more vocal, but I heard so many radical voices saying the most absurd opinions out there, that I do not want to voice my opinion against the change, as it would place me next to the people who say that "the woke propaganda is poisoning the water and trying to make the friggin orks gay". It's not about an ever expanding wave of WOKE that is taking over the world by psychological warfare, it's about people wanting to express themself in the hobby, and hobby companies seeing them as a possible customer.

[@FauxHammer]

If it helps, I hear you, You should not feel like your opinion cannot be vocalised so long it is well-intentioned and said without hatred. Everyone should be welcome to their "opinion". I mean, of all the people in this world. I love the person I most frequently disagree with the most. I expect you saw how nervous we were to even have this conversation. So on some level, I can relate to how you feel. I just want to talk about what I think, and I do want to listen to others who speak without hate in their heart, but I also don't want to get cancelled for something meant as a joke.

[@robert2pkt0]

Interesting you argue Primaris Marines was a better way to introduce new lore - though this created a similar shitstorm for years as Arbitor Ian recently elaborated nicely. Now GW takes ownership of their IP, rips the bandaid off and a shitstorm ensues as expected - while still saving them the effort of trying to explain themselves to the loudest and most toxic minority. Haters gonna hate, you guys know that as well as everyone on the internet. Love the chat format as always ❤

[@cthuludreams1]

Arsebiter Ian can get stuffed

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@cthuludreams1amazing example of the typical chud argumentation quality level 😂

[@jamesbrunton9507]

Book recommendation: Storm of Iron Got me into reading black library but is very much a product of when it was written