Games Workshop is Failing at Basic Balance

[@TheOuterCircle]

I'm well aware of what happened to Age of Sigmar, and I may talk about that, but this video was in the works before that issue, I just hadn't edited it yet, so I dropped it now. Whilst I'm well aware of the issues in creating games with perfect balance, GW has failed in these examples at the simple kind of balance, creating like for like for like costs, instead we see flat out superior choices. It's even the little things, like Sigismund only being Ballistic Skill 4 seems like "oh no, he hits on 3's!" but then you remember, as an Imperial Fist, he gets +1 to hit with bolt pistol, so it's 2's anyway. So is it a nerf? I don't think so, unless you're using Sigismund to throw strength 6 krak grenades when the dude is armed with a S6 sword! Of course we also have the Suzerain, all characters and the only unit like that in the game, stat-line of a centurion and about 30 points of wargear... and they cost 30 points each? Ok, sure, whatever, seems balanced. There are dozens of examples like this in Heresy 2.0, so feel free to throw some of your favourite like-for-like comparisons into the comments!

[@guilliman1990]

Suzarian are so freaking strong its not funny.

[@ravenRedwake]

Maybe they’re running out of ideas of how to make a space marine company different enough from one another to matter?

[@starkraver-7938]

This has been an issue since late 5th when codex creep went into overdrive. It was even worse in 6th/7th where if you weren't playing marines, tau or eldar you'd already lost at the list building stage. I put this down to rules not being under the control of the writers but dictated by the marketing department based on what they're currently selling

[@Sommeill]

GalVorbak costing the same as fucking Knights Cenobium.

[@whodatrva1811]

@@ravenRedwakeI would say raise the points by a factor of 10. A tactical marine is 120 points. Games are 20,000 points average. Then you can cost range things more, and provide a lot more wargear & veteran options to units to fully customize the game.

[@xxmattopsxx3931]

Always remember that we play this Game in Spite of GW not necessarily because of them. Make your own rules, 3D print, kitbash, convert, balance your own matches, and have Fun!

[@someguy4405]

Absolutely, there's nothing GW does that you can't do better.

[@SteelStorm33]

people dont want to invest that much, i always say they should go watch a movie instead of a hobby with such high investment of their own effort.

[@bc9402]

@@SteelStorm33 Considering most movies nowadays are shit, I’d rather just read a book or or play an older edition.

[@kapitanbeuteltier5889]

Oh, stop with the hatred towards GW already. Yes, HH2 isnt balanced and the sets are too expensive, but without them, the Heresy-community wouldn't exist, we wouldn't have kickass models and especially without their community work through their brick and mortar stores, the whole hobby would be just half as big - at best. This isnt about "us" vs "the big greedy company" but just nerdy gamers having fun together. Plus, apart from playing in GW stores they have absolutely no problem with kitbashing and proxying stuff to begin with. Heck, mechanicum, militia, Blackshields and Daemons are armies where you cant even buy purely official models.

[@bc9402]

@@kapitanbeuteltier5889 With all due respect, was this supposed to dimiss or talk our complaints down? Cause your points only remind me why I remian dissapoited in GW. Also, no one has a problem with the people who work the stores. They're just good folk who are trying to make a living, we understand that. Our issues are with corporate and the anti player decisions they make. Why are you upset with us rather than the company? The company is actively making it harder for new people to get started in the hobby, and straining those who are already in it. I say this as someone with a iron warrior army for HH, guard, imperial knights and Admech for 40k, and im playing legion imperiales. Yes, us "nerdy gamers" are still getting together and having fun, but its inspite of GW, not cause of them.

[@DMKA94]

It's almost like Andy Chambers, Rick Priestly, Alessio Calvatore and Alan Bligh where the only people at GW competent at writing good rules

[@KristovMars]

Yeah, /almost/...

[@DMKA94]

@@BittermanAndy Thanks for the correction!

[@MrConna6]

Gw -stands on the shoulders of giants- is hacking at the ankles of giants

[@izaakkemp8938]

My favorite GW systems are those where all the armies were released at once. Ravening Hordes for Fantasy and the 3rd edition 40k rulebook. No power creep and reasonable balance, what a shock.

[@SteelStorm33]

they did the same as 3rd index in 10th, but the rules were busted, ive seen the mortal wound bullshit and called this will be a problem, i also said that the command phase is useless and brings problems especially for guard, and they changed the voice of command too... instead of fixing their core rules.

[@RSBurgener]

How long has GW been using the excuse of "we are a model company, not a games company"? I think that may be a big ol' snag in the culture of the company. It reminds me of how I excused my poor math grades in high school telling my parents I was an artist and not a math nerd.

[@SteelStorm33]

but if we ask for free rules they answer: "we are a games company, not a model company."

[@AgeofSilver]

@@SteelStorm33And they ask for feedback on rules fixes, are given the feedback and then ignore the feedback entirely. Then question “what more do you people want? If you want something ask us for it!” Smh

[@SCHMALLZZZ]

Citadel has always made the miniatures anyways.

[@AgeofSilver]

@@SCHMALLZZZ what? Whats your point? Citadel is gw, gw is citadel.

[@judgecohen1373]

I have long been of the opinion that the company is purposefully culling the people that will maintain game systems beyond more than 5-10 years or so due to turnover of management over that period. We are just old enough/have been around long enough to notice.

[@voultronix761]

Well yeah. They only want whales and new players , the people who buy the most plastic. That's why they make radical decisions because whales won't budge and new players don't know better. Only people who buy a few sets a year will complain.

[@bababo0oey297]

This is how "veteran level" should be represented by in the rules. This is where you start. Each of these is the template for every unit you create and has an associated value. The only stats that should be tweaked to show certain quirks or exceptional tenacity, accuracy, and ferocity are Leadership, Ballistic skill, and Attacks. Don't touch anything else. Having someone's first captain (Sevatar for example) with one less wound than most others, or one less weapon skill is just annoying. It absolutely bogles my mind that this is unable to be grasped by the rules team. If I were a member of the rules team for Horus Heresy I would be constantly checking that all new content (for marines in this example) we create starts with these templates in mind. First Captain stat-line WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W4 I5 A4 LD10 + Eternal Warrior/Battle Hardened (Certain high ranking first captain equivalents like Erebus and Rhy'Tan should be given this line). Praetor stat-line WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 LD10 Centurion stat-line WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 LD9 Veteran Retinue stat-line WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD8 (for all legion specific retinue units and command squads) Veteran stat-line WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD8 (for all veterans, terminators) Line Marine stat-line WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD7 (for all standard legion units such as tactical, assault, support) Once a template for a unit is chosen, we can then begin personalizing them to their legions. In order to do this we must assign points values to special rules, weaponry, armor, etc. This is more difficult to be sure, but I don't see this being impossible at all. I have even started attempting this myself before, and found it very tedious but achievable. One of the most annoying things in the Horus Heresy is when legion specific wargear and rules are seemingly forgotten about with certain units and characters. Take Maccha's example with Nomus Rhy'Tan, he's a Salamander, why is Dark-Star Falling not master-crafted when even my tactical sergeants can have a master-crafted weapon? Why does he not have a Dragon's Breath combi-flamer? Why is it suddenly unwieldy when it wasn't before? Its not a Thunder Hammer, it's more of mix between thunder hammer and power maul, so if it isn't SX2 then why is it unwieldy? I'd rather have a power-maul or a thunder hammer compared to this. SO the end result from this + his weird cost vs stat-line and awful warlord trait is that nobody in their right mind is going to take him. So what was the point of writing AND UPDATING his rules? Why are Atramentar Terminators in Tartaros armor? Why did you do this? Why did night lords need TWO legion specific Tartaros armored units? How has nobody on their rules team seem to notice this or give a shit? This is just another example, but there are dozens of annoying things like this throughout the rules and it seriously sucks for the game. I wish they could find people who are passionate about truly balanced rules for their games and hire them. This should be one of the most important facets to their business, if your games sucks, not as many people are gonna buy your "best models in the world".

[@alexzarle2700]

I dont think GW does anything because of Balance. The Only System thats balanced is LotR and that is basically the same rules since first edition, newer editions only include the FAQs that gathered over time. Like 40k as an example. One of the things in tabletop that gets closest to macrotransactions. Remember when the Marine Thunderfire Gun was the hottest and brokenst thing around for a few Months, GW sold out and second hand were around 95€ and they actually sold for that price, cause the rules were so bad at that time. This is only one example. I knew players who switch armys everytime on the grounds of how broken they are. For them, the GW rules are like a bible.

[@beanman853]

right now 40k is probablly the most balanced it has ever been

[@SteelStorm33]

@@beanman853 and the most dull and unfun, most rules are useless and most army rules dont work. nothing is what it should be. better playing one page rules, they are closer to actually resemble 40k units than 10th edition.

[@defektedtoy2731]

​@beanman853 I mean I guess having a stick in the eye is better than having a stick in the eye AND being on fire.

[@Sommeill]

The : "It's a narrative game. Balance doesn't matter!" Is perhaps the biggest cope in the HH community.

[@anab0lic]

when are you guys gonna realize the best miniature games are the ones not being made by GW...

[@magicianman534]

Some corrections on the Suzerain profile. They don't have a sergeant. They're all characters, and all of them can take thunder hammers if you want. They also don't need to take their banner to be line, they already are without it. Which kind of makes it redundant. So the gap between them and the Praetorians is even bigger. I wish the Praetorians has something to give them their own identity. If Suzerains were a 1-0 choice maybe that would help.

[@colinbielat8558]

If the praetorian breachers were just a power sword upgrade for a regular legion breacher squad then they might be a little more useful, but they are wholly inadequate as an elites choice with only one attack base.

[@jakubgodlewski9104]

~21:00 I think the most blatant thing here is that the Breachers can upgrade one of their guys weapons to the Axe of the Suzerains.. for 10 points. So in the 8 points difference, you have the 10 points Legatine Axe included.. and that's only the start.

[@thewizardmf175]

I always loved that each primarch had a #2 and their sizing up of each other in the books. Ya got a point here hopefully these things can be fixed 🙏

[@jusztinnemeti6380]

The Horus Heresy train wreck keeps on chuggin' along.

[@darko-man8549]

There was a time when imbalances were not really an issue because the game was fun and models were expensive but not craaaaaazy. Now the game is being designed around this competitive mindset where fun (and maybe complex) rules are out the window in favour of this mobile gaming TT experience with over priced models

[@brycedery9596]

Over priced seasonal release models

[@interloper8029]

It has been like this for decades. Rule written at different times by different people, inadequate playtesting and ignored feedback. The company can't be bothered to spend money on rules design because most people who buy the miniatures don't play the tabletop games, and the people who run GW only care about profit margins, not even slightly about the games themselves.

[@didymussumydid9726]

Points cost should be heavily weighted against the other options on that list. It’s perfectly reasonable to have the same unit be different costs for different factions, but not if the ranges also favor the faction with a discount. But this is immaterial because their game is busted for multiple interacting reasons

[@SteelStorm33]

no, same units should always have the same price, army rules arent, or shouldnt, be part of the point costs, army rules should be balanced against each other. in heresy most imbalance comes from busted profiles and rules with no reasonable point costs on them. there are no problems with interactions when you only need a single special rule to break the game.

[@LiliaArmoury]

going through the ministorum index i was struck by how many pointless restrictions there are for what some models like cannonesses and palatine can take

[@derFredausdemVideo]

GW is mostly restricting the equipment to what the current kit allows you to build. It makes it better for people new to the hobby because they don't have to get a different kit to get access to options not in the base kit. As a veteran myself I understand that it sucks for those of us that came from prior editions with models with equipment options that GW does not support anymore. So, yes, it sucks. Are the restrictions pointless? Not quite, IMO. Giving Legends-rules for the "all options" version of the model, similar to the Crisis Suits, wouldn't kill GW.

[@SteelStorm33]

@@derFredausdemVideo you know that gw only gives rules for models they actually sell, because of their war against 3rd party products for their monopoly? customers dont show up in this equation... and older kits didnt have that many options, newer ones did, but than gw removed the rules and new kits will never get more options, but they dont want them to anyways, because less sprues per box equals more money.

[@derFredausdemVideo]

@@SteelStorm33 legit criticism of GW's buisness practice, I give you that. I don't tend to be so pessimistic, but on reflection you seem to be right.

[@kapitanbeuteltier5889]

That is blatantly untrue though. There are multiple units in the HH rule which are not directly sold by GW and need to be either kitbashed or sourced through different means.

[@MrConna6]

‘We are a games company’ *Feels like every consecutive ruleset is a downgrade* ‘We make the best models’ *kits get lower and lower effort, and quality and more generic every day*

[@bryan131]

Hey Macca, why don't you highlight other games and publishers that you think are doing things well? You had other videos talking about X-Wing, BattleTech, A Song of Ice and Fire, Hate, and however many others.

[@horriblypink]

All of those companies are going through even more trouble than GW right now don't get him started 😂

[@starkraver-7938]

Might be worth just getting some people together to create a community edition of Heresy. My group is still playing 1st ed with house rules and i imagine lots of groups do this sort of thing. If we could get together one unified, community patched version of the game that might be good

[@justususalplayer1329]

15:11 well while in most cases you are right today, but on this specific one I have to object, since csm had some better equipment options back at 5th edition, like doubling up on meltaguns in squads or changing kinda useless bolter for pistols and chainswords+they had access to marks of chaos. And I'm not even going deep into other codex mechanics like ObliLash and so on

[@TheOuterCircle]

Yes, but then you're paying the points to do that, Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF were free on the basic unit, which was the point I was trying to make, in that wargear wise it was kinda a wash, but you'll never overcome that flexibility that the Loyalists had.

[@Alex-yg5uh]

Welcome to Heresy 2.0 loyalist edition! Sigismund should be at least 370 points and stone gauntlet should be deleted altogether. No need to buff salamanders they already have the crutch firedrakes and a ridiculous reaction. It's mostly the traitor legions that really suffer, underpowered or badly written. Just look at what the clowns did to the World Eaters....

[@DirtyMardi]

Mechanicum (maybe), Solar Aux, Militia and Demons are even worse. GW clearly won’t change the rules they printed, so it is what it is. It’s a mediocre at best game system with cool models.

[@SteelStorm33]

@@DirtyMardi this game is balanced around marines fighting marines and they cant even handle such a small portion, other armys will never be viable

[@Yog-Speggoth]

It definitely has felt like GW don't truly playtest their rules in any meaningful way.

[@jaegerbomb269]

They're failing at supporting the game! I mean, they can easily release Breechers right now, but they aren't. WTF GW?

[@brianabela4533]

Let's face it, the game is basically lascannons and thunder hammers due to the way the rules are written. Flyers are worthless, and armor less than 14 is a one shot for lascannons. Artificer armor is horribly written. Most units are redundant or overpriced to the point of being useless. I can't understand how the rules for heavy bolters and volkite culverin could have been written. Volkite is so much better than the bolter counterpart, even if you are imperial fist, it's still better to have volkite. It appears none of the glaring problems will be addressed. I actually like reactions, but they need to do something about heavy weapons reacting versus other weapons. It seems as though the writers are not very good at technical writing in the native language of English, nor do they understand statistics or game design.

[@jaegerbomb269]

@@brianabela4533 good point.

[@stu_gibson]

Still bothers me that Sky-Hunters and other Jetbike riding dudes arent T5.

[@sammacintyre1351]

A large chunk of the group I play with are in the same boat. We love a lot of the models but we're not willing to pay the jacked up prices (we're in NZ) and deal with badly written rules. We're going to be giving OPR or Xenos Rampant a try instead.

[@MC-el2us]

When you wait ten years for you black book and it’s invalidated for a new edition that makes your legion categorically worse than IF. Thanks?

[@krisdurrant9503]

7th was unbalanced, but at least it was fun and malleable. Now its just a monstrosity.

[@starkraver-7938]

7th wasn't fun if you played chaos or orcs...nothing less fun than knowing you've already lost before unpacking your models when you realise that your opponent has brought tau, eldar or marines

[@krisdurrant9503]

@starkraver-7938 how is it any different to now? The codex's and rules are overly complex between armies, there's more codex's now and more rules to learn than ever before, RNG missions is a dogshit mechanic, and every squad uograde is free meaning people will model on the meta and that's that, no extra points, no theme, no repercussions at all. At least 7th had flavour, you could tone down upgrades on armies and build lists for friendly/comp/mixed. You had good apoc rules as well for bigger games. 4th to 7th was easily the best times for 40k. Now it's just a copy-paste sweat fest everywhere where shooting and first turn dominates.

[@manofthewest5395]

Buff Atramentar.

[@dizzymcfizzy]

GW games have never been really balanced, but at least they've been fun and interesting. But now, 40k feels bland and uninspired, especially compared to previous editions.

[@DirtyMardi]

Suzerains should start at 300 points, same goes for Dawnbreakers and Cenobium. It’s kinda mental how cheap and spammable those units are, when they are better than any other melee infantry on the table. It’s very clear that either GW wants loyalist astartes to win all the time or they had a second rate team writing their rules. What is clear is that they are unwilling to fix these blatant mistakes. I wouldn’t recommend this game system if you like fair play. Also, I have a prediction that when the next book releases a year from now, it will contain rules for Archamus. Archamus will have WS6, S5, T5, 4W, 4A, 2+, 3++, 6+++, Str +2 sword with Brutal (2) and ID 5+, Furious Charge (2), Rampage (2), Heavy, Battle-Hardened, Deep Strike, Solar Marshall WLT but with shooting reaction, some fluff rule like 1+ BS for any unit he’s joined if they are in unit coherency, and all this for 220 points at most. The Iron Warriors get Forrix with basic cata praetor stat line, Battle-Hardened (1), and a thunder hammer with shred, and an inconsequential warlord trait, for 215 points.

[@SteelStorm33]

a problem i see is that the writers have no clue about the games they design rules for. when i read rules and find multiple balancing issues of first level kind... and these are just first level problems, obviously busted rules, wrong costs of units and gear, useless gear and rules, first impressions of internal balance. well i might read the rules after they are finished, its hard to set everything correctly if the base game is still subject to change. but they can do what i can do, read everything carefully after its finished and fix the obvious problems. we implemented rai and raw because we dont trust this company to be able to write rules down as they intend, and this says it all.

[@chitzkoi]

> biggest problem is with the rules > only thing he buys legit is the rules ...

[@or6397]

Yeah, what’s strange though is that they brought out all these new plastic tanks and Solar Auxilia only to make them painfully bad. You would think they’d be pushing a tank heavy meta to get people to buy new kits instead your best units will be stuff you already have a lot of like Contemptors and heavy support squads.

[@galdalversgravekeeper5158]

Isn't this like calling the sky blue? Balance was never a thought in their heads because they are a model company, not a game company.

[@blkjet117]

In 40K there are too many factions, too many special rules, too many figures/units. There will never be balance. It is ludicrous that an army codex can be released that is already needed updates before it even gets in the hands of the customer.

[@friendlyneighbourhoodsunwheel]

I'd have to agree they a fine games making company not a good one or a great one. It's always underwhelming and they promise more with constant add on's which also never deliver.

[@mathewfitzpatrick5645]

This is one of the reason I'm likely battletech, most hard rules have hard points values. (Quirks don't, but quarks are also optional). And those points are PART of the rulebooks, though not necessarily the core book. Sure the balance isn't perfect but it seems to be a good start.

[@jotarofatso5743]

I remember playing first time Necromunda against enforcers, and they had dogs in carapace armor for half a price of Orlock dogs. Nice balance, GW.

[@dangron9845]

I agree with the issues here 100%, I’d pay you for better rules if you are up to it 😂

[@racerguy180]

Macca goin' for the jugular. Rytan's rules are a joke

[@dalorasinum386]

Sigismund has always been overpowered. I have no idea why they don’t give eternal warrior to all the first captain characters. Though tbh I’m not sure whether that or Nomus being a bit weak for his points is contributing more here.

[@jotarofatso5743]

To steel man GW. During 5th edition Krieg Hades Breaching Drill cost less than Chimera by 10 points, it would Deep Strike on your tanks and hit them with Str 10 Ap 1 +2d6 all in side armor, and next turn it would shoot like Devil Dog and deliver veterans to the field. Sound like an absolute bullshit, but you have to remember that Krieg doesn't have anything that can reliably destroy heavy vehicles. They don't even have a proper transport, which isn't a super heavy. If you take Hades in the regular Guard codex, it's straight up busted and unfair, even if you triple it's price. So I can see to some extent some units being straight up better, just because everything else is shit.

[@RazielLordOfSecrets]

what is really bad, is that in 40k they had balance not perfect. until the first codex dropped. it is the blatant we have a sigismund model we'll make him better.

[@greggriffin4462]

My knee jerk is Siggy is a singular combatant. He's, lorewise, never lost a fair duel except against sevatar who cheated though it made siggy laugh. But you did say cherry picked example. Also, siggy gets +1 to hit on his bolt pistol which kinda negates the lower BS.

[@warhounds]

GW should have made an X named character as a blueprint then buff/nerf them in wargear/rules but also adjust the point costs. then compare like you do to make it look if it makes sence... thinking about it this should be applied to all unit types and weapons... also they should make the pointcost make sense becuase its gonna be expensive in currency to play a 2k point game when a marine costs 25 points and a solar troop 1 point... just an example

[@WindlordRyu]

I got massive AI wibes from the 10th Edition rules, especially the original 1.0 points, which is the current hot shit in company/investor culture. So I expect it fall hard from here, and then suddenly get good once the computer finally gets it.

[@phantomjoker5]

the great culling...

[@grahamroden8897]

They need to reassess the legion special rules. Imperial Fists and iron hands are evil to play with a core army. They could easily have released 1st edition and dressed it up as a new edition.

[@zielisawzielony9366]

It was bever balanced, if you play competitive you doing it wrong. Cheers!

[@user-tc9sk4ei9y]

As if it was something new

[@latro666]

Solar marshal does nothing against some people you play... and in my lived expereince most people i play or see online play loyalist (even if they run traitors they play them as loyal). You can't just cherry pick parts of rules to make an argument. You said IF get +1ws all the time, that is not a true statement. You glossed over the massive part of the rule to support your own narrative which is weak. Not defending IF but you have made this comment on thia WL trait before making an assumption the IF player will always be playing traitors.

[@DirtyMardi]

Counter point: almost all tournaments are loyalists versus traitors so loyalist IF have +1WS praetor + squad practically all the time.

[@henry7696]

cherry picked poo-poo nonsense

[@margaretwood152]

😉