Garmin Body Battery vs Daily HRV on Apple Watch and Chest Strap

[@sherryflavour3791]

You sound like Michael Scott. Great video and analysis!

[@RaymePastore]

Thanks! 😃. I hear this all of the time lol.

[@LuckyPandaX]

Can you normalize each measurement to 0-100, instead of just 1 or 0? It seems the 1 and 0 are arbitrarily assigned and probably the reason for low correlation?

[@jeskli11]

0-100 is way too huge scale you cannot (or can just very hardly) connect properly with your feelings, 0-10 or at least 0-5 would be more ideal. But otherwise I agree with you. Also, EliteHRV gives you score on 1-10 scale, so simplytising it to 0-1 makes no sense to me. Dunno how is the score shown on the Apple Watch though.

[@RaymePastore]

It's dichotomous because I felt good or bad. There is no in between thus no need for any other scale. If I wanted to run the test showing if I felt somewhat good, etc. I could test it that way but this comparison was just good or bad.

[@davida.3946]

I would try to try it for different translations of the BB-Value from all above 50 -> 1 or all above 60 -> 1 etc

[@Xariann]

I find the chest measurement is the least accurate for me because by the time I grabbed my chest strap and set myself up, first my body has moved around considerably and secondly my mind is now starting to think about the rest of the day, and somehow knowing that I am taking a reading affects how I breathe. The tool might be more accurate, but the context of that measurement is already more artificial than something that takes it automatically when it you are not thinking about it. Whilst I do often override the numbers with how I feel sometimes if I am undecided and the numbers are good I will try anyway. I also find that the more time passes between the reading and the time I workout, the less useful the reading in the morning is. I get too tired for the evening so even if I felt great in the morning the boat has sailed. Lastly for me it’s not just about how I feel that day. Keeping a diary of the readings is helpful because they allowed me to spot a pattern on the long term, which then allowed me to pinpoint a cause of a health issue I was having.

[@pederhindborg1072]

Very interesting - thank you! I have found my. Heart strap (Wahoo) to be pretty inaccurate for HRV readings too. It needs to be extremely wet to reduce artifacts in the HRV recordings.

[@nostoneunturned6291]

There is one factor that I have struggled with that’s the extraneous variable of conscious awareness of my breathing. What’s nice about body battery (and polar nightly recharge too which I’m currently testing) is that body battery runs in the background. There were a lot of day’s I would use the Apple Watch breath app with HRV4TRAINING and just being aware of by breath would cause a very high reading in HRV suggesting I am healthy and good to go while polar would say my 4 hr HRV average while I slept was poor and below baseline. I have about a years worth of data In HRV4TRAINING and I really haven’t had it trigger any warnings on HRV even when I’ve felt very sore and drained in the morning. And I don’t know if this is a true correlation because of how I feel or a false positive because of a heavy deep breathing influence when I take the morning measurements.

[@RaymePastore]

There are many factors that can affect HRV, similar to your HR, and nervousness, the way you breath, being in a certain position, having to go to the bathroom, etc can all play a role.

[@Bigjuergo]

it seems the BB is correlating to workouts - it would be helpful to mention your workouts in a colum what you did exactly - time and HR in relation to max HR please do a second vid on this topic - thx!

[@JeffStovall38]

4:30 Your average body battery score was only 58. Your statistical transform to 1 or 0 gave you the high value of 85.

[@annelisabethcom]

Look at the video with the guy who ran a race and then didn't rest, as body battery told him to. Also, I think you're missing out on two things. Look at a longer time perspective. Like that guy experienced, you could crash s few days after your big exertion, if you don't allow enough rest, and you may feel fine until you do, but your Garmin watch is going to know.. And the second way you're missing out is not looking at Stress. That's the inverse of HRV. And heart rate, activity and respiration is also part of the equation.

[@justnguyen228]

Wat i want to know is if feeling is a good metric to guide training for sports (powerlifting/crossfit in my case). For example, if i wake up feeling crappy, does that necessarily mean that my body will not be able to handle a normal amount of volume and intensity? Im getting a garmin with body battery soon and cant wait to see how accurate and useable that data is.

[@RaymePastore]

Your ‘feeling’ is one of the best metrics but nothing is 100% perfect which is why most researches recommend looking at multiple data sources. Im sure we have all had days where we felt good but performed bad and the opposite.

[@Xdc5]

So how is it going with BB?

[@hellopsp180]

@Ray I have been doing elite HRV chest with a wahoo chest strap since dec 2019. Overall it has been pretty accurate. The downside with E HRV is the artifacts. To reduce it you need to fully wet the HRM and give it a good 30s before starting the morning readiness test. Also I know you use 1 and 0 to say good or bad. But in reality its many shades of grey. Ofcourse for your data analysis you need absolute numbers.

[@jzen1455]

Body battery intrigues me. However, I'm reluctant to buy a Garmin due to poor HRT and sleep tracking. It seems Polar is more accurate in tracking those things. However, Polar doesn't seem to have an analytic as good as Body Battery, or does it?

[@RaymePastore]

They have something similar. I am less concerned about sleep tracking now since body battery really measures my sleep recovery. I do however with garmin would provide the raw HRV values. The 0-100 is cool for the graph but the HRV numbers behind that would be useful.

[@jzen1455]

@@RaymePastore After being mired in analysis paralysis, I finally ordered a Garmin Vivosmart 4 that's scheduled to arrive today. Body battery and other features of FirstBeat just seem so state of the art and informative to not check out.

[@gudrune]

@@jzen1455 how have you found your watch so far?

[@TheBassallyear100]

great analysis and well-timed since I am currently contemplating between garmin / apple / whoop for hrv training measurement. relatively speaking, whoop should be the easy choice for measurement and convenience but that nagging question of additional functionality is still very strong. taking a quick glance at your extrapolated body battery result using 50+ as a "1" result, would it bring all three results more closely in line if on the days you scored exactly 50 those were instead marked as a "0"? it appears those days are very few? 2 or 3 them maybe suggesting an average of approximately 0.76?

[@RaymePastore]

They are all very much in alignment with one another, especially when you look at the scores subjectively including high and low normal + feeling. I haven't used whoop and it seems interesting though I don't like the subscription model or the fact that I can't see stats from the device itself but I have heard great things. I really like body battery and find it tells me a lot about myself - for example, I notice a good vs bad nights sleep has about a 15 point difference. It's really interesting data.

[@TheBassallyear100]

@@RaymePastore fantastic. I really appreciate that you look at the data and analyze it very objectively through stats. my gut instinct is to pick up a garmin watch. ideally, it would be an updated version of the vivoactive 4 that has body battery and LTE connectivity (i'm a cyclist so would prefer to leave my phone at home when possible). I do like how whoop charges with a slide over battery, it was a great idea to keep the device always on your wrist. like you, i'm not keen on their subscription model. I own a ton of apple products so I'm well into their ecosystem but relatively daily charging of the watch and no native sleep tracking are the main downsides for me.

[@siralator5839]

I just bought an AW and was sad about missing out the BB feature. I do now have a HRV widget with the "Training Today" app, but after your video I will definitely go more by feeling. I mean, sometimes you wake up, feeling crappy, stressed or depressed, but you just know that a nice workout or run would change all that. So maybe are these indicators aren't a good "should I train" metric in the first place. Maybe more a "how hard should I train today" thing?

[@RaymePastore]

You know your body better than a watch, those metrics are just nice guides, so listen to yourself! Having said that, the HRV feature on AW does a decent enough job of measuring HRV in the long term but not day to day like BB.

[@syedalikazim]

Another very informative video Ray. Thanks. It would have been great if you've added Whoop and/or Oura ring's readiness score to the mix. I guess what I really wanna know is that can we just relly on Apple Watch or do you need specialized tools like Whoop or Oura ring to complement?

[@RaymePastore]

You definitely don't need them. If you want readiness there is always HRV4Training app that works with apple watch to give you a readiness score each day. If I were going to compliment apple watch with another piece of hardware it would be a garmin. I much prefer garmin to oura/whoop mostly for external sensor connectivity, battery life, and body battery. I don't think oura is going to add anything to your apple watch at this point especially if you are using a data analysis tool and hrv readiness. Whoop would add some more data but I am not sure how useful it would be considering the monthly sub fee. I've got an AW and Garmin 945 and ordering the AW6 Friday though I might be able to play with a demo later today!

[@syedalikazim]

Ray Pastore, Ph.D. Thanks for your detailed reply. So you use Apple Watch and Garmin 945 both at the same time? Wouldn’t it be an overkill?

[@RaymePastore]

I go through phases with each. I currently use the 945 for all workouts and the apple watch in the day as a smart watch. The only workouts I use the AW for right now are surfing because of LTE. Garmin provides a lot more insight/stats that help me train. Having said that I can get a lot of that from 3rd party's w/apple watch (ie strava).

[@syedalikazim]

@@RaymePastore Garmin 945 is definitely better when it comes to training. But I'm wondering if we'll get most of Garmin 945's features if we only use it during activities. If we remove it after our workouts (run/swim/bike) and use Apple Watch instead, some of the metrics like daily activity and body battery in Garmin Connect will be off, right? Hence, I'm thinking of complementing my Apple Watch to get me as close to Garmin experience possible. I wonder if the Garmin's latest bluetooth enabled pro HR strap will work with Apple watch and give me the additional metrics? Wouldnt it be great?

[@RaymePastore]

I think when garmin comes out with the 955 LTE this next spring as rumored it will do everything I need.

[@mettiusmaximinus18]

I have a garmin venu and agree with the body battery to how I fell all the time. Spot on.

[@Ex-expat]

Thanks for giving this an analytical view. Some presentation feedback ;), just check how many times you said" I did some statistical analysis" A better planned script would help the presentation of your selected approach, data collection and result presentation a lot.

[@khunkhamkaung6123]

Thank you for the video!

[@Reflexionfaite00]

Your BB is so low :-D Thanks for the video For me, following the Stress under 20 per day give me the best results to have a good HRV. And that give me a Body Battery at 100 each morning. For me, to be in shape, I have to have 5 mornings with 100 at the Body Battery

[@phoneticduck4984]

Apple HRV is rubbish - consistently miles different to Garmin Body Battery - and for me BB has always been spot on compared to how I feel and have slept. Still amazes me how it knows I’m starting to get sick before I feel unwell.

[@jayeshjadhav8863]

What garmin do you have?

[@RaymePastore]

@jayeshjadhav8863 Currently 955

[@vladimir.molodov]

Thank you,man:) Good video:) i learning english with your blog)) And now i think: buy apple watch or garmin vivosmart:)

[@orestismaroulis3598]

Interesting and helpful analysis. Let's just bear in mind that the "no significant difference" does not mean we can assume they are (almost) the same - "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

[@saxy1player]

What I find hard to grasp is you keep saying chest strap HRV measurement is probably the most accurate and I agree. But then you reduce it to 1 bit of information (0/1). That makes absolutely zero sense. Most measurement devices give useless data if you reduce it to 1 bit of information. You should log the timing information from your chest strap (rMSSD for example) and do analysis on that if you were to "compare" it to the other measurement methods. Also you never mentioned what chest strap you used and how the information is calculated/acquired. On the note of following your feeling: It's a decent approach up to a point. The problem with it comes when someone ignores their feelings with the intention of gaining more faster. That's where this kind of data can help you prevent overtraining or getting burned out (of course if you don't ignore this the same you can do with your feelings).

[@RaymePastore]

Dichotomous for the measurement. I either felt good or bad. I could show the actual numbers but when you do the calculation you need to break them down for the comparison.

[@saxy1player]

@@RaymePastore I'm not sure I understand. Dichotomous what? Feeling I understand is probably hard to accurately assess into more than 2 categoriees (bad/good) but given Garmin are so bold as to give a 0-100 value one could probably try doing an orthostatic test: It seems to be a good method of measuring fatigue - the difference in HR and rMSSD between lying and standing (if one uses that) can probably be divided into more than two categories? I mostly voiced my doubts - I appreciate your effort to compare these things and to give your opinion on it, though! It is kind of disappointing not to be able to see/understand Garmin's way of crunching the numbers (which nubmers, and how?) into this score.

[@monicanunez4568]

My body battery is low, but my morning poop smelled potentially high. I'm all clogged up. It feels like I have tree trunks up my cornhole. Whenever a branch gets squeezed out, it smells like a turd that just produced a turd. Thank you for this video and overall helpful information.

[@sztigirigi]

HRV is supposed to be measured over long period of time. The only thing worth getting from this measure is a trend. Any correlation between this measure on a given day and how one feels is nonsense. As far as I know Garmin does that. But you need at least couple of weeks to let firstbeat software to be able to make a proper analysis.

[@RaymePastore]

What you are saying does not align with the research on HRV. The whole point of a daily hrv measurement is to see if you are ready to train that day. The data point is compared against others to see how well you are adapting to training, recovery, etc. Trend over time is important as well and you need to measure over a few weeks to get a baseline. The point of what I did was to see how that data point aligned with others.

[@sztigirigi]

@@RaymePastore Please give some reference to the research you are talking about. HRV measurements are by no means stable enough to tell something "PRECISE" about current day. It is a powerful tool but only when taking into account trends. It is a tool for people that train. Companies are trying to cash in on acute data, but used this way it is just a toy. Which you pretty much showed in your presentation. HRV should be used to analyze overtraining. Nothing else. If you have some GOOD peer reviewed papers that it's otherwise please share.

[@RaymePastore]

This is just the first one that popped up but there are tons showing a daily readiness score can provide meaningful information watermark.silverchair.com/milmed-d-02-6808.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAArMwggKvBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKgMIICnAIBADCCApUGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMaWH4sRqyoTtuhNAGAgEQgIICZob4pHw-G4QUIj56zMesBArASBGDLR0nj8egkaHcyhMqvTkHDsv_Obe8bykAgFAKEfyoSQ0s1V547o3ajNOhIUWIUpk3tqpwXh2yIkghcjgELUOjJiLwR8tEsEKDyp3d2VTqF82wAlO-mGLyiXPu5_KJcf4ktytITKwcRbhSR49OZwNFUAtjdQ-H8y11SF7HSPvOO7AbOr9Z2_ZFEQsnCblYyRnHq5ZGfxE7rAQ6S7iFPdjytpMuDczO3DQeSN0I-vh8PH8WcyrWSByCgpNWXlpD1w-VvPNPgw8RrpF2IjmEWglUjZU8AGA5JwUnmBMEZCqCjbpA2Wl6HP4RIdbGH-g2vm8fKlRCBQOTzgnWQlFOFfJjsGeDl2nFh4bPfad_TM73qxZ8-Igv6KFMuXj4L_W9mBvwX46ybcc5UWHjWfkxHp92z7Y8HuCd1nPQ6cxepspgcfCF0O1jwaHLnAkKztsYnUrGX6Z2LozbmcpADyW7X_hRseom-AEDi5NLvayMfr95OGswwQk095Cd2q1OFbZmycC_9BtM-euU3wgWDar6idfLHdspFuy4dCMbn0dPu9Xl5uOvqrcCYewxTcOqT2OTLOsdVM8iT5FY5I7AQ9MKaH7rL_16WohIbYzfVx9_U3lLZcVCr6jReSfPULojs1Phj-8xlvWttw7-BTSrVPl_V0IPjoVyc0GJse4fNA3vaO1VTBE1m39NAK4Ly65-kzk6l2AHqOcjIX0ysjgKHsR_u5njSH6UHyE0xV0J3WioFb8wtyLCSoaK18S4a_mKgc5I7NPthWAPEeQd7q4OXAvEdf8icqmb

[@Bigjuergo]

so funny, feeling is the best

[@SneakySteevy]

The 2 times he felt like crap he trained anyway

[@RaymePastore]

Yea, I tend to push through and usually feel worse afterwards...it's my ocd

[@mike188881]

u should be more ambitious and use the x/100 hrv vls

[@KaptainKerl]

garmin, pls just put plain hrv in your app... the hell is body battery

[@annelisabethcom]

Jake77 Look at Stress. It's basically the inverse of HRV, plus possibly heart rate and respiration. Not sure what the various watches use in addition to HRV.