Gary Gygax vs. Dave Arneson

Jon Peterson joins us to discuss his new book Game Wizards: The Epic Battle for Dungeons & Dragons.

[@dcw007]

Arneson was the inspiration of DnD, but Gygax gave it a physical form. Like two wizards creating a golem. It went insane trying to serve two masters and escaped them both.

[@captcorajus]

At the age of 16 years old, 60 minutes showed me that the press was untrustworthy and not reliable. It was a good life lesson.

[@SteveBonario]

No one likes being villainized, scapegoated, demonized, or misunderstood. No one likes people in powerful positions using that power to create a narrative in other people's minds that is misguided, disingenuous, uninformed, or downright libelous.

[@sebbonxxsebbon6824]

The media is all fake news, let them burn!

[@NemoOhd20]

Me too. It showed me CNN was full of sh#$.

[@angelmanfredy]

The whole Satanic panic was a joke. I’ve been playing dnd for 46 years and it didn’t corrupt me hail Satan.

[@agilemonk6305]

The simple fact is Dave Arneson gave us the concept and idea of Fantasy Roleplaying Games. He owns that brilliance. After that, both Gygax and Arneson gave us D&D, and ultimately Gygax ensured it made it to the point of being a mainstream gaming idea and approach that many others built off of and created a legacy.

[@divergentlife493]

Arneson made D&D and was running it for years under a different name - Blackmoor. Gygax involvement was contributing to the design and helping to get it out. So yes contribution is not co-creator. Arneson is the creator. So why is there a Gygax convention rather than a D&D convention to celebrate this game? Or it would make more sense even to celebrate the original creator?

[@AceProductions91]

@@divergentlife493 There is a Gygax convention because it is put on by his children which came out of what happened after his funeral.... If you have an issue with there not being one for Dave, talk to Dave's kids.

[@anon-yw4wd]

@divergentlife493 Arneson was running Blackmoor off of Chainmail. No Chainmail equals no functional Blackmoor. See how that works? Who created Blackmoor? Oh yeah, Gygax and Perren. Huh. Funny that....

[@subzero9113]

@@divergentlife493 Because unlike Arnesin Gygax brought it to the masses, had a cartoon made and insured thstvD&D survived. Say what you want about creating it but only one of the two gathered investors , printed it and sold it. Arneson didn't take the financial risk or hire other folks to expand the game. Thats why folks think of Gygax when they hear D&D hence a convention with his name.

[@WookieMan22]

Would people say that the guy who invented the first Motorola brick cellphone back in the 80s is the genius behind the iPhone? I see this as similar. Yes, Arnesen came up with the original very basic concepts, which were adaptations of stuff one of his friends came up with for miniature war gaming, which the friend took (in part) from a book on war gaming. He then collaborated with his play group, then further refined it through months of correspondence with Gary to get the initial tiny rule set that is the original brown books. Who knows which of the two are responsible for which specific pieces during that period. But when it came time to back it with money, Arneson wouldn’t/couldn’t. Gygax found the investors and took the risks and made it happen. Then TSR, Gary’s company, expanded the game with dozens of other staff contributing, let alone fan contributors through the magazines at the time. By the time AD&D 1e came out, it was a different(ish) game than what Arneson “invented”. It’s funny to me that this whole debate is even still a thing… Dungeons and Dragons was ALWAYS a collaborative effort of dozens of people (Dave’s home group, Gary’s home group, etc.). It has been constantly modified by a never ending stream of staff contributors, home brew material, and third party writers, all the way to the current edition. To me, the history of the game and the companies involved are interesting. But the arguments over who “invented” the game are pointless. Short answer… lots of people. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@SteveBonario]

Excellent interview and discussion. Thanks so much. As a player & DM since 1979, your work and research has helped fill in gaps in my understanding of why things were the way they were at that time. I had so many questions as a 13 year old perusing the first release of the DMG and my friends and I had to rely on word-of-mouth from local college students and (eventually) the pages of "The Dragon" magazine for any kind of external understanding of the game.

[@davemustang8173]

Arneson had the vision but Gygax had the skills to make it a reality

[@chazblank2717]

Kinda sounds to me like they both had tremendous vision, and THAT was the problem more so than anything else 🤷🏼‍♂️ You could say Gygax was maybe a little less idealistic/inspired and definitely way more cutthroat and business-minded (not that he was especially good at the latter). The best comparison I could come up with is early Soviet Russia. Two influential figures, Trotsky and Stalin fighting over the legacy and direction to take something they were ultimately only ever inheritors of from Marx… or for the purposes of this extended metaphor HG Wells… writer of Floor Games (1912) and Little Wars (1913)

[@goblinrat6119]

@@chazblank2717 I think one of the issues might have been that the people at TSR kind of took it for granted that since they are now successful, they need to go really corporate with it, need to start cornering more markets, need to get bigger and bigger. But very few people there actually had much mind for all that business stuff, so mistakes were made - many mistakes. A lot of Gary's tenacity on the business side of things seems, to me, to be motivated by his poor past, having to make really small ends meet while trying to support a family. When this D&D thing took off, it was not just his passion about games that was driving him, it was the fact that he was quite concretely fighting to keep his livelihood - a livelihood that must have seemed, to him, like a real one-time opportunity. It's not often your hobby passion project just suddenly takes off like a rocket and seems to suggest that you can now keep doing this and actually make a really good living on it! (There's also the fact that Gary was never supposed to be the business side of TSR. Don Kaye was the person with more of a handle on all that, and when he unexpectedly died, Gary had to step up on the plate and do what he could.) Dave, meanwhile, never really had that kind of a dog in him. He didn't enjoy being pushed around or being told what to do, did not want to go really big with all that, and more just wanted to work on his things - but at the same time was not very happy when other people then got more recognition for all that. I think he ultimately got quite possibly the best deal he could have hoped for, realistically. With those royalties he ultimately got, he essentially managed to secure a very decent lifeline of income, without needing to try to contend in all that corporate stuff that he clearly had an aversion for.

[@chazblank2717]

@@goblinrat6119 yeah, the more I talk with friends about their lives (especially the ones with kids), the more it hits me… your parents don’t have to actively abuse each other or even you… growing up poor is traumatizing enough in its own right.

[@BanjoSick]

Woz and Jobs.

[@magonus195]

This was really great information, thank you for putting together this interview

[@ThaiThom]

It was a whole community of them, really - but Gygax packaged and sold it.

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

I just read the Game Wizards book. It was quite illuminating on the history of TSR.

[@bentmetal666]

Same here what a mess like watching a 3 stooges show, all of them messed up goofballs, but a great game out of it.

[@Istari68]

Thanks for sharing this podcast - I bought the book after listening to this.

[@geeksguidetothegalaxy]

Thanks Jeff! Hope you enjoy it.

[@thesnare100]

I always wondered why Gygax always gets the most credit, rather than equal between him and Arneson

[@Jelperman]

Because Gygax and others did all the work. Arneson's Blackmoor book was mostly written by Tim Kask, who described Arneson's contribution to D&D as being like one guy out of many suggesting they'd like to cross a body of water, and the people who actually designed and built the Verrazano bridge.

[@anon-yw4wd]

Because Arneson wrote barely anything that we see as D&D today. He couldn't be bothered to do so. He was anti-authoritarian and kind of an anarchist. Neither makes for good long term growth potential. If it was all left up to Dave D&D would have never been a thing it would still be called Bkackmoor and it would only be played by old geeks with one foot in the grave.

[@anon-yw4wd]

@Jelperman Word. Tim is an unsung hero.

[@elrinstrongsword]

Great work

[@nobody342]

Oh and by the way, Great video!

[@anon-yw4wd]

Dave didn't create Chainmail and his adapted system ran on that system so people thinking he created D&D in a vacuum are delusional. No Gygax equals no Chainmail. No Areneson equals no Blackmoor. No either equals no Dungeons and Dragons.

[@NemoOhd20]

That isnt really true. More importantly, Dave didnt create Chainmail either. Just like D&D he just happened to put it on paper and mimeograph it. Perin and SCA jointly created the rules.

[@briankirkpatrick2392]

The fact that Gary admits that Dave sent over "18 or so handwritten pages of rules and notes pertaining to his campaign, and I immediately began work on a brand-new manuscript. Greyhawk campaign started - the first D&D campaign!" (Best of Dragon Magazine p. 29), shows how much influence Dave had on Gary's vision of D&D. Those 18 handwritten pages laid the foundation for what Gary's D&D would eventually become, since he drew heavily from them to create his own campaign. Bottom line, Gary pulled a bulk of his ideas from earlier established works (i.e., Chain mail and Blackmoor) and created a campaign that he later claims was an original idea. Therefore, no Chainmail (not Garys's) plus no Blackmoor (also not Gary's) would have equaled no Greyhawk (which was Gary's)...

[@nobody342]

I started Dungeons and dragons in 1978, and Dave Arneson name never even got mentioned, although Gary Gygax's name was. I do not care what anybody says, whether or not Arneson deserves more credit or not, I can tell you, if it wasnt for Gygax, there would be no DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS and people would not even be having this conversation, because GYGAX made it happen, and if we were waiting for Arneson, we would still be waiting. If you want to put it another way, the entire Miniatures/Wargaming industry would not even exist, Warhammer would never have happened, Games Workshop would not even exist, other than being a small little story in Britain, selling monopoly boards and tiddle_winks, because if you even breifly look at GW, you would know its a clone of Chainmail, which they would have never heard of if Gygax had not created D&D. Lots of people have all kinds of ideas, but if they are not developed, they are nothing, and Gygax developed the game, and published it, Arneson did NOT! and if we were waiting for him, we would still be waiting. One could say, the entire computer game industry, and even the developement of personal computers has a lot to owe to Gygax. Computer gaming has driven the computer industry, and Gygax's game was the catalyst for the computer game industry. Every company that is making 3d printers owes a lot to Gygax, as even as I sat here listening to this, I was at my computer supporting a miniature for from the 1st edition Monster Manual to print on my Epax X1 resin printer. You see, Gary did MUCH more then just Dnd, he revolutionized the world. Maybe Arneson had a idea that he shared with Gygax, but Arnesons Idea came from being originally exposed to Gygax's ( and Perren's) Chainmail as I understand it. So Gygax borrowed a idea from Arneson, who first borrowed a idea from Gygax? and somehow we owe it all to Arneson? Remember Gygax created Gencon in 1968? He was already making things happen. What was Arneson making happen? Not sure if you ever watched the show Connections by James Burke? Gygax made it happen, no matter where he got the ideas from, and didnt BALROG's come from Tolkien? and Ent's also? so we can honestly say, neither of them Created Fanstasy, Not even Tolkien "created" fantasy, they all borrowed their ideas from others in the past or from those near them. But I can guarantee this, that I would never have played that first game of Dnd using paper chits instead of dice in Keep on the Borderland, if I had been waiting on Arneson!

[@Vilik-nm7ry]

Arneson introduced Gygax to Fantasy roleplaying, so...yeah, gary just kinda stole it and modified it. Gary said it himself and then walked it back when he wanted to steal Arneson's property and not pay him for it. Gary was a thief and its ironic he got kicked from his own company later on lol and also Arnesons ideas didnt come from chainmail, it came from strategos and games his group created so maybe know what your talking about before blowing a dude who took credit for creating something he didnt

[@skysplawn3404]

Who is saying otherwise? It sounds like you are offended by the reality that Arneson invented RPGs.

[@swirvinbirds1971]

@@Vilik-nm7ry Dave literally took Chainmail rules and modified them to make his.

[@swirvinbirds1971]

@@skysplawn3404 by modifying the Chainmail rules...

[@skysplawn3404]

@@swirvinbirds1971 OD&D suggested using several other games as supplements to it's ruleset. AH's "Outdoor Survival" was one of them. Chainmail rules were presented as optional inclusion to handle melee rules. Which were not even a requirement when D&D was published..... You seem to think that OD&D is "modified chainmail".... it just isn't. From what I have seen... Arneson's Blackmoore owes more to Braunstein as far as direct inspiration is concerned... and all of that can be true and we can STILL be thankful Gygax ran with that ball to give us D&D.

[@dagaspadini]

I've really liked this podcast, because I think people should stop idolizing Gygax or seeing Lorrain as the Anti-Christ. TSR had a lot of potential,gave us a lot of beautiful content (and some pretty bad too!) but it was a badly managed wreck.

[@JustAnotherJarhead]

lorrain was most definitely an evil bitch.

[@divergentlife493]

This is impossible to follow with no context to anything. The game started with Arneson. Gygax did contribute much to it, and helped get it out. But there's no mention of Arneson here at least after 14min in.

[@anon-yw4wd]

Ask Tim Kask how much Arneson really did..... LOL

[@Jointknight]

Just being a branch of Wired, makes anything you say sus. Call me Marxism hesitant.

[@ProTobigen]

Fuck off, don't bring politics into this shit. I could easily spit off at you for being a right winger, but I won't. Take a lesson from that. Not everything needs to be fucking political.

[@CapnSnackbeard]

Gygax deserves all "our thanks" just for pushing something to market? As if that were the only method of distribution available. Not sure where that quote was from, but nah.

[@SeaJay_Oceans]

2.5% Geeze, Gary could have given him 5% or 10% for the Big Guy ?

[@NemoOhd20]

Gary got the same %. The Blooms wanted to give them nothing, flat rate fee and nothing more down the road.

[@יוסייוסי-פ7ח]

יא

[@kawaiigoomy3487]

I’m an Arneson, I wonder if Dave is distantly related to me? 🤔 I’m from Wisconsin so it wouldn’t be a huge stretch. I don’t know if I’ll ever figure that out, but it’s an intriguing thought. I dream of creating my own fantasy world, but a comic rather than a game. 🌱🐉🪷 Hmm… now where’s that motivation potion? 😅

[@BanjoSick]

Man, there are tons of Arnesons in Minnesota and North Dakota. 30% are Norwegians there...