Playing at the World Episode #2: Identifying 1970s Dice

[@PaulGestwicki]

Back in the '90s, a friend gave me two clear d20s, each numbered 0-9,0-9, with half the numbers inked in red. I had never seen anything like it. I can't quite remember why he gave them to me, but I remember his telling me that they were old, and that's just how things used to be. Thanks for helping me understand how they fit into the hobby's history!

[@xinth23]

I know this video is about vintage dice, but I can't stop staring at the bookshelf!

[@buckatronic]

By the late 80s Zocchi’s was a huge warehouse that distributed tsr products all over. He was a local hero to us as kids and visiting the warehouse was like visiting Santa.

[@andrewbernard5858]

Please Jon no more four year hiatus. Great stuff.

[@ClyFaker]

Thank you so much for this video and the accompanying blog post. It really helped me in sorting a bag of vintage dice I found while thrifting. They're all a little worn, but apparently I have two complete Holmes sets, a Heritage set, a TSR percentile set, and a few unmatched dice from Zocchi and Heritage. So much history in a $1 bag.

[@kennetth1389]

In watching this video I realized that all those many years ago, at a comic book convention in 1979, I had purchased a Lou Psaki (sp?) dice set that I used for years and never knew it.

[@Ares_0926]

I remember even in the mid-late 80 getting dice from the Mail Order Hobby Shop in the Zocchi style. I still have a few.

[@zenopusarchives5028]

Thoroughly enjoyed this. Loved the "mutant" dice teaser at the end!

[@rohanm7695]

Wow. I would have thought it impossible, but you made 25 minutes of the very-early history of D&D dice, of all things, really interesting. Totally in awe of your dedication to our hobby!! Really well presented. Great work.

[@swordsworn7]

Thank so much for sharing. Please consider a video on dice from the early 80's to 90's. The info out there is minuscule. This period heralded the transition to more crystal dice and German made Koplow dice with solid colors and rounded edges.

[@randallporter4835]

In the a White Box DnD times in Central Indiana dice were a rare as Hen's teeth. Our DM had a friend at Purdue who wrote a program in Fortran that generated dice roll tables all bases on using D6's. So for the D20 you had a set of column of one thru six and below them were numbers from 1 to 20. You rolled the d6 went across the top went down till you got to the last unused number and you got your roll. We had a sheet for every die. There were printed out on old green computer paper dot matrix style. We did that until we could afford dice.

[@jonpeterson7219]

I have heard of a few similar practices: there were people who sold sheets of computer-generated random numbers for scientific purposes, and you could definitely reuse his. There could be a great article/blog about electronic randomness before the Dragonbone...

[@tonycalarco8293]

Great video! I love that--in the middle of a highly polished video--you roll a d6 and then you can't help yourself: you have to look down to see what you rolled. That's a gamer. I hope you make more of these, very interesting stuff.

[@captcorajus]

What an EXCELLENT dice retrospective. I thought I knew about 70s dice but you really enlightened me! I really enjoyed this. Subbed, and liked!

[@PuckCurtis]

I absolutely love your content and I'm working my way through your book right now. You're first rate and a really engaging speaker. Just a bit of feedback, the closeup videos occasionally get washed out and it can be difficult to make out details on the dice. One particular thing I kept finding amusing is the way you casually sit and then pull out a new rare item hidden just below the edge of the table. A couple of times I gasped out loud and then laughed. I never imagined that someone could bring the talents of a professional researcher and archivist to this piece of our culture. Every time I engage with your work, you leave me impressed by your careful and comprehensive approach. Well done.

[@jonpeterson7219]

Yeah, I'm not exactly a video professional, but I did put up some clear pictures of the dice on my blog linked above.

[@PuckCurtis]

@@jonpeterson7219 - Thanks for all the work you do and I am loving your book. My wife is a PhD research scholar and I never thought anyone would bring that level of commitment and talent to this field. You've created a new academic space that others will follow and if they don't consider and cite your work going forward, their efforts will be lacking.

[@bryanbeecher]

Thanks for making this, Jon. I really enjoyed hearing the stories behind those old dice of mine. Great stuff!

[@lukehawksbee]

Back after 4 years! I had given up all hope! Great to see it, thanks!

[@jamesburns6603]

As I watch this video I had a nagging feeling I read this somewhere else. Then I realize I am currently reading his book "Playing the World." My first Die set was the blue polys from the Red Box set, for the edges quickly wore down. I still have a few of them left ,the rest were lost to childhood.

[@rhettrhett4891]

Wild that I just started reading your book and you upload your first new video in years. Fascinating stuff. I sent the link to my sister who got me into gaming back in the day and I'll be asking about her 70's dice for sure the next time I see her.

[@inter_707]

Just wanna say how much I appreciate this video. It's a topic I'm fascinated by, and I always stumble back to this video every year or so. Thank you for making such high quality content!

[@b.o.4492]

Wild that this got recommended. Loved the first edition of playing at the world. Enjoyed this video.

[@stevenvarner9806]

Your videos are great Jon, I only wish there were more of them. I still have my Holmes dice, complete with the painted 0-9 d20. I used blood red enamel.

[@dilarus8231]

When are we going to see more from this channel? I love it so much

[@RobotMaria]

Great videos! Sincerely hope you produce more in the future. Would love to see a library tour, because those background shelves look amazing!

[@Griffiana]

Oh gosh what I would give to buy some of these made with the original dice. Especially the Lou Zocchi dice.

[@kxkxkxkx]

These are great, thanks Jon! Truly an expert... Looking forward to watching #3 in a few years 😁

[@namelessjedi2242]

Great to see another video from you! I think I was able to identify a mystery d20 I have; a small light blue one numbered 1-20 with the 7:235 map you showed as 1980 TSR.

[@RottenRogerDM]

In the 70s and early 80s, we would raid our board games for regular pipped d6s. This was due to supply and some locations did not see dice separately due to gambling laws. Some school supplies did sale dice too. I have(had) a blend of the some the sets you mention.

[@mr.e1944]

Very in-depth look at early D&D dice. Very informative. Very cool!

[@ironbomb6753]

Mr. Peterson, you have a very cool collection of dice. Wow, 👍

[@INMRuben]

Hi Jon! I find your channel really interesting and nice to watch. Are you going to upload more videos in the future? Thanks and greetings from Spain.

[@frothsof1]

Fascinating and informative, thank you!

[@WaynesbooksNet]

Excellent research and presentation. I recognize many of the dice I've seen over the years, but never understood their origin.

[@edwardkann2827]

Great content Jon. Thank you for your insight and passionate work. Cheering for you.

[@telstarradio7974]

Great to see you back!

[@RadRat1978]

I sell your book in my game store; good stuff, dude

[@HardTimeGamingFloor]

Really looking forward to any new video content you have coming!!

[@hundredsroadwerewolf]

D&D played a big part in my adolescence, but I had little understanding of any of its historical context - found this very interesting.

[@stevenvarner9806]

This in an excellent review. Thanks.

[@lazylitch8035]

This was a delicious video, thank you

[@AndyYoung]

Great video, very nostalgic! My friends and I would roll a D6 along with a 0-9x2 D20 to generate the 1 - 20 value... if the D6 came up a 4, 5 or 6 we'd add 10 to the number on the D20, otherwise we'd just take the number shown on the die. I always thought everyone did this... couldn't imagine marking up a die with a sharpie. Sacrilege! ;-)

[@drewchase6603]

Wonderful video thanks!

[@leonardoilmoro5327]

what a great video! Thanks a lot!

[@SandyWalsh]

Excellent video Jon ... I'm sure I have some of the 80's die kicking around. Who's your preferred dice vendor now?

[@RottenMechGaming]

Nice detail in the vid. Great content thanks :)

[@LonelyAssassin96]

The dice market has come so far since the 70's, honestly. I mean, not a lot of people back then would think about taking epoxy resin to just make their own sets, I think.

[@JonathanPerkel]

Great video, Jon!

[@martinprovoost9477]

Really helpful - thank you so much

[@andyfleischer9044]

Man, Jon Peterson is literally a gift to nerds. Wish he’d do more vids like this but know he’s working his ass off!

[@thepenultimateninja5797]

I'm trying to recreate my original TSR D&D dice set from when I was a kid. It came in the basic starter set (the one in the red box with the dragon on the front). I lived in the UK at the time, and this set was a hand-me-down that would have been from the late 70s to early 80s. I'm having trouble pinning down the colors of each die, because I can't find a photo of a set like the one I had. Perhaps it's because mine was a UK set? I definitely remember that the d4 was red, and had sharp points, not the blunted type. I'm 90% sure the d6 was orange. The crayon to fill in the numbers was white. Does anyone have a photo of this set so I can jog my memory about the colors of the other dice?

[@erichhemm2848]

I own a set of Holmes Basic Set dice (red/orange d6), but never owned the Holmes Basic set. In 1977-78, was the Holmes Basic dice set available for purchase separately from the Holmes Basic set?

[@gregschwandtner8142]

Hey there, I wonder if you have any information regarding white D20 with a combination of red and black colored numbers ? As for the Holmes dice, they don't show any number between 11 and 20. Thanks for tour help :D

[@wuerfel_schmied]

That rhombic dodecahedron at the end of the video looks pretty interesting. I also have a set of those d12 with the two bumbs to use as d10, but mine are really old poker dice. I also have some tiny d20s with 0-9 twice. They look like windmill or gamescience, but were those later? They came in pastel tones, pink yellow orange.

[@jonpeterson7219]

Most likely tiny pastel dice are Gamescience "microhedrons." They shipped in a lot of games (including FGU RPGs) in the early 1980s.

[@wuerfel_schmied]

@@jonpeterson7219 ah great, thanks. So they are still pretty old. Good to know. BTW great introduction. I have to check my stuff what I exactly have laying in my collection.

[@AAron-gr3jk]

Wasn't aware that part of the success of early d&d probably was the fortuitous inclusion of these (then) new dice.

[@andykaufman7620]

I got one of those basic sets in the original Gamma World box set. One thing I did not like about the set was the fact each dice was a different color and a shade that was not dark or deep, rather it was a lighter version of the color. I did not like that. The first chance I got to get a set of dice with the same color I jumped on it. I also owned the Black and Red 20 sided d10 used for percentile too. I liked when they made D20's that you didn't have to take Crayola or ink pen and color the numbers. That is another thing you could do. Number 0 thru 9 by inking them or using a Crayola to put the wax inside the grove of the number, and then leave the other 0 thru 9 without doing this so you then have instead of a twenty sided d10 a true 'd20 as the numbers with the Ink or Wax are the 'teen' numbers 11-20. That is the first true d20 that existed, before they made some official produced one. I did this and owned a few of those. If you look at the twenty sided d10 depending on the color of the die you would want to use a lighter color Wax or Ink so it stood out, OR if already a lighter colored die, or White, then a Darker colored Wax or Ink. I personally loved Lighter colored wax or ink. So if it were a Black die then i would use Yellow or White or maybe light brighter Green or even light or brighter Blue as the Wax or Ink choice. Depends on the die and the whim at the time I had. I even took a set of the other sided dice to match the same color as I used the Crayola to color in their numbers too. I don't remember it working all super-well, but I did try and see how it would turn out. Of course, you could clean up the dice and start over depending on the Ink or die you used, but I liked using Crayola instead. ----- I liked the pointy more 'lethal' style d20 than the one with the flat ends. I also don't care if the d12 is so large. If it is smaller fine, but I can see why they would want a more uniform matching relative size for each dice. The current dice I own are 'oversized' and what we could call Chunky' sized dice, ie the D6, the other dice are all morel like the size of that large original D12, larger than most other dice of their same type. They look fantastic and are modern created dice, with the highest number for each die type a distinction image, which many modern dice feature. I love that, and I love the slightly chunker and large dice feel in my hand. -------- I remember that "Tumble Die" I owned one those, and the set of dice that appeared when ADnD was launched. I remember the Tan-brown d20. I liked that tumble die more though. Thank you for making this video. I really enjoyed it and learned things I didn't know.

[@andykaufman7620]

That is why Stategos was dumb for wanting a result like 1-12 as if you have 2d6, two Die 6 you can fact roll 2-12 result and do NOT need any other made up method. Until you invent a D12, which was already known and invented long ago with Pythagorean Solids. I get the probability is off, but just make the chart 1-11. Evoking Spial Tap, "But then it is not 12", but just make the list go to 11.

[@andykaufman7620]

I remember those pitted d8. I REALLY liked those. The red ones are nice, but also later I got bone white ones at Gen Con, like in 1982 or something like that.

[@andykaufman7620]

I got my first use of dice at my friends house who already owned the original DnD edition zero. It was the White box. I remember either seeing 1976 as a printing date, maybe 1975). Maybe it was the brown one, and I remember getting the Gamma World box with all those funky different colored die, and then I got ADnD books so I never needed or got the DnD boxset. You really didn't need it, and if you were Hard Core, and a Big Boy (or Girl) gamer, so the idea of playing Dungeons and Dragons was not appealing to a 7 year old mature gamer when he can play Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and had older friends who were 12 and then when I was 12 myself I went to Gen Con for the first time (started playing in 1977, and I think in 1976 I saw my first books, miniatures, dice. I went to a Gen Con and that is where I found my first real set of dice. Later, I found a miniature wargaming store in my local City but I lived in a City so I had access to something like that. In fact, I think there were a couple of them. One was like the Toy Soldier store or something like that, and it had Dungeons and Dragons, but also all those miniatures and other gaming related things. Once I found that place and then others, I could find more choices. I then got addicted to Dragon Magazine and then Dungeon, and other magazines so I found new sources to find new things. Yet, in 1977 we didn't view Dungeons and Dragons like it actually really originally was, a Quasi-Wargame/RPG or a Fantasy Wargame, (with emphasis on use of Miniatures, Tactics, and use of Roleplaying elements to expand to then play out battles and run Kingdoms) We viewed it as a true Roleplaying Game with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. DnD quicikly fell out of favor, and either people got Basic/X Dungeons and Dragons, or they got, mostly everyone got, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Why play a game where you have an Elf class, when you can play an Elf plus another Class. That is what we were thinking. If you have questions just ask. I remember all this very clearly, at least the vast majority. I also remember Citadel miniatures, who were running the original 1st edition Warhammer, a very different game than later WHFB and then its companion 40k. I remember Battleroids, the precursor to Battletech, and the addition of all the non-Dungeons and Dragons rpg games, from Traveler, to Call of Cthulhu, Gamma World and so many others. I also remember the early 80s as the time when our choices grew many times over for things like Dice and remember seeing my first set of dice where they were all the same color which is really what I wanted. I wanted all my dice to be the same color.

[@roberthoward1218]

That explains those dice I have with an A on them. Thanks!

[@danacoleman4007]

wow! your mom has a really nice basement!

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

I can't tell if the D6 of that first set was Orange, or Red that has faded to Orange.

[@monsterhobbiesageofsigmar]

That was pretty cool and well researched. Where did Game Science dice come into this? I own a hobby shop and I got some old dice from a wholesaler that went out of business that were Games Science and came in a tube. 6 dice, no percentile dice and you had to sharpie in the numbers.

[@jonpeterson7219]

Gamescience was the brand name that Lou Zocchi used in the period I'm discussing in this video. Since then, I gather it has been only intermittently attached to him,

[@monsterhobbiesageofsigmar]

@@jonpeterson7219 Cool. Those are good dice!

[@monsterhobbiesageofsigmar]

I have a tan set.

[@agilemonk6305]

I have my dice from back in the mid to late 70s and early 80s dice.

[@kuriboh635]

Wow I didn't know my 1970s dice I got off ebay in 2015 where from the first gaming dice maker in America.

[@lucaspadilha2194]

Hey Jon, is there a possibility that one might gain access to or that you might be able to share Strategos N/C/A to the public (if you have them)? These rules seem impossible to find on the web.

[@paulcoy9060]

Nice to know my set is original.

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

What was the first D10 made specifically for Dnd?

[@davdna]

My mystery Zocchi oversized d12 explained!

[@chrissimpson1183]

I forgot about the steam tunnel incident.

[@danacoleman4007]

I REALLY miss uncle Lou

[@WargameCulture]

Hi Jon, just a quick question: why is it that the "Strategos A/N" documents have not been shared with the world? You and others have been writing about them for years, with references in many books, but there are no copies for other hobbyists to peruse? Some friends and I are trying to figure out the workings of Chainmail, and it certainly looks like there are some "assumed rules" from another source that aren't explicitly detailed in Chainmail. Any help on this would be appreciated!

[@Trashloot]

I thought your dice tray was a roomba... it's late ok xD. I can't believe that you put so much effort in cataloguing dice. It was a very interesting and weird video.

[@paulvalentine4157]

I can't find your book, any suggestions?

[@mattymoowhite]

I have your book at my elbow right now. All 700 large pages of it,(front and back ) I DnD to justify my dice habit ..

[@danacoleman4007]

at 16:13 you say 1970. did you mean 1978?

[@richardpark997]

audio?

[@johnh4948]

What book did you write?

[@skysplawn3404]

MOAR!!!!!

[@Eat2surf]

Does that mean these dice from the 70s that I use should be put out to pasture?

[@seccrecc67]

SUPER GEEK! Your awesome though.

[@dr.coffinnails]

"dice" to see you!

[@davedujour1]

Someone else who has the original Cyberpunk boxed set! Are you annoyed as I when everyone says Cyberpunk 2077 is based on the "original tabletop game Cyberpunk 2020"?

[@UnwalledGarden]

Please reprint Playing at the World.