GAUGE THE ISSUE: To DOO Or Not To DOO

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Any views or opinions expressed in this video are those of Chris Eden-Green and are made without intention of offending anyone.
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[@Sasuri]

The Guard showed his green lamp, and the Flying Kipper was not ready to go due to protestors on the main line.

[@tonstad39]

"There are two ways of doing things" said the Southern rail car "The southern way or the wrong way, I'm southern and I only need a driver for my runs!" The passengers became very cross.

[@ajaxengineco]

They started mumbling about how the western region would never do anything so silly.

[@harryrobinson2901]

I am a member of a Model Locomotive club in Brighton. We sometimes joke that our little track has better services than southern!

[@sirrliv]

As an American, I find this view of Southern trying to do away with guards frankly shocking. Amtrak is financially in the toilet and has been to one degree or another basically since its inception, yet practically all Amtrak trains have at least one conductor (guard in your parlance), and long-distance overnight trains often have up to 3-4. We can do this while our passenger trains are hemorrhaging cash and are threatened with closure every year, yet Southern, one of Britain's busiest TOC's, thinks they need to cut costs by dumping yet more responsibility on the already overworked, stressed out, malnourished, sleep deprived, and probably more than a little pissed off at the world and everything driver? And there's another important duty that the guard performs; a safety measure against the train's own driver. We all surely remember the accident at LU Moorgate in 1975, when a tube train was driven into a brick wall for no discernible reason. Theories range from mild hypnosis of the monotonous view of tunnel rings flying by to the driving being suicidal. It's an unpleasant thought to say the least, but it's not an isolated incident; the Amagasaki wreck in Osaka in 2005 may have been caused by a similar mental breakdown due both to the ultra-intensive demands of Japanese rail operations and the inhumane disciplinary measures in place at the time for crews who fucked up. My point is that driving a train is one of the most stressful and mentally taxing jobs in the world; drivers have a huge responsibility, limited control, and have to work under almost inhospitable conditions, with long working hours, insufficient breaks and time off which often conflicts with their human needs like sleep, eat, poop, etc., all of which wears on the mind, potentially to the point where if one thing too many goes wrong the driver's mind could go plink and hundreds could die as a result. To be absolutely clear, I am in no way trying to make light of the mental health of contemporary train crews. On the contrary, I mean to say that it is a serious concern that should be taken into consideration. Enter the guard. His job is to reduce the stress on the driver by leaving him only in charge of the train while he (the guard) handles the passengers and everything to do with them. By ensuring the passengers' safety, he can let the driver get on with his part of the job, driving the train, while not needing to worry about the other side, handling the passengers. The guard is also responsible for assisting the driver in exceptional circumstances, such as when coupling two sections of a train together, or in helping to isolate and fix a minor fault should the train break down. Finally, in an ideal situation at least, the guard should also be the driver's mate, acting in a professional but friendly manner to alleviate mutual stresses, particularly emotional, and thus providing a more positive, less stressful work environment. There's also a service concern to be addressed. It's not just native Britons who use British trains after all. There's also us tourists from abroad who don't know our way around you confusing-ass country, who might know where we're going, but not how to get there. I myself have had experiences while traveling through Britain when I wasn't sure if I was even on the right train and had to ask the guard, who always informed me if I was or not as well as other info I couldn't have known beforehand, like which platform my connection would be on, and even if getting off at another station than where I'd planned would get me to my destination quicker. One final point regarding these Train Operation Supervisors. You mentioned several times that these people should be trained to the same standards and get the same qualifications as guards. While I'm all in favor of that, I have to ask: Wouldn't that just make them guards? Why do we even need these TOS when guards do the same jobs and more better?

[@TheSteamdriver]

sirrliv unfortunately the whole affair goes beyond Southern. there was a Government report a few years ago called the Mcnulty report where it said that the TOCS would save money by getting rid of ticket officers and guards. Which means they have to do it as I think it's a law but I am not 100% on that. As much as I do not want it to happen I think the only way that government and the TOCS will learn is that if we have a big crash

[@sirrliv]

Very sad, but you're probably right. Sad that throughout the history of railways the only thing that seems to get everyone's attention and cause radical change for the better is when hundreds die. And with how stubborn and stupid modern TOC management is on anything that would cost them money, it's likely that such a disaster would have to happen more than once before they get the message.

[@russellgxy2905]

Couldn't have put it any better myself. And my god this was thorough!

[@highdownmartin]

Well said! Just left the job after 30 yrs driving. Can't stand it anymore. We're earning twice the money for five or six times the work since I started. Then everything goes DOO It's too much and thanks for putting up your comprehensive post, no one else seems to understand and the media were on the governments side largely. That whole dispute was a huge whitewash. Following the abysmal timetable change on GTR where they're amazingly caught short of drivers, it's a good time to leave the service anyway. Having had both unions blamed for causing disruption through greed( not true) we have daily misery ( not just announced strike days) caused by greedy management running the job on overtime for years instead of creating an overestablishment ready for crew training at the appropriate time for the new trains, routes and timetable that they'd hadYEARS TO PREPARE FOR!!!!!!

[@jordankramer9523]

This is like what the United States freight railroads are wanting to do. The major Class One railroads want to run with only the engineer in control of a 200 car freight train. It seems the old poem still rings true: uphill slow, down hill fast, profits first, safety last.

[@russellgxy2905]

Precision Scheduled Railroading in a nutshell from what I've read

[@themidlandcompoundarchive9430]

I guess thomas did not leave the guard behind after all!

[@josheaton7864]

Midland Compound 1000 7:19 but Daisy's modern cousin did

[@themidlandcompoundarchive9430]

yeah let's just say that's the fat directors job to clear that up though I think there was a bull on the line.

[@MikesMovies]

Blimey Chris, very insightful. The railway rule book was written based on accidents and deaths, now some of us feel that rule book is being cast aside based on profits! In my opinion you sir, are spot on

[@mercury7590]

Even though I live in the United States, I love watching your videos to experience what we Americans don't have. Keep up the good work.

[@Parovoz0251]

MercuryWolf Railfanning At least they have Trains to complain about.

[@DagorDagorathSauron]

The NRC in Australia wanted to do this at one point when they bought in their new locomotive fleet in the 90's. I believe a report in NSW made in the 80's recommended this too

[@tangentsofinterest9993]

Excellent video, Chris. So good to see the issues around the Southern strikes being addressed and not just shaken off as Union hysteria over who shuts the doors - I'm looking at you, BBC.

[@jsma9999]

Thank you covering this. DOO on the Main Line is a Bad Idea General But in Metro area it's is a not as Bad. But Train crew are 2 People.

[@rileynibhroin6395]

I thought this was going to be about model railways. Boy was I wrong.

[@LuckyTrucker1]

A train is always safer with two trained staff rather than one . IMHO the driver has enough to deal with making sure the train arrives at the destination safely . If passengers are prepared to pay the extra cost then fine , Southern Rail shouldn't be expected to soak up the extra cost .

[@anindrapratama]

DOO in Japan applies to lines with low patronage and drivers double as conductors with bus-style fare collection on the train

[@rushs11]

I have to say, this sounds extremely similar to the one man crew debate that broke out in North America in the aftermath of the Lac-Mégantic disaster in Canada. There was a freight train that operated with only the engineer (driver in UK terms). No conductor or brakeman with him, and stepped away from the train without the proper precautions after one of the engines developed a major mechanical issue. Tons of major mistakes later, the oil train derails right in the middle of a town in Quebec and the oil tankers exploded, killing 47 people. We're still trying to find the answers about one crews nearly 4 years after this tragedy but currently, very few trains (if any) in North America are running with one man crews outside of separate grade transit systems.

[@railduskchaser2617]

Signal boosting the Hell out of this - very nicely thought out. I like how in 11mins flat you've managed to cover what it's taking people months to convey and for the biased RSSB [who, by the way, has a massive conflict of interest in its personnel - did you know on Sir Charles Horton is a member of it?] to sweep under the carpet.

[@LNER4771]

I can recall the strikes on Southern Rail during a trip to the UK last summer. Luckily, I was smart enough to take the Brighton & Hove bus service most of the time, especially when visiting the Bluebell Railway and the Kent & East Sussex Railway.

[@railsofsteam]

* gets on a train, asked * excuse me but where do i get my ticket on here?* drivers announcements * ladies and gentlemen, due to no guard currently on duty you may experience some minor safety issues during your travels. Please make sure that you purchase your tickets at the station or online - have a nice day.

[@inkyscrolls5193]

A popular argument for the introduction of DOO is that it has already been used elsewhere - but you could say the same about lead waterpipes or bloodletting, and no-one would think of using those today! Just because something is used elsewhere, doesn't mean it is a necessarily positive thing.

[@FlyingScott]

You could just lock the strikers in their shed-... I mean home.

[@TheSouthernTerrierA1X0-6-0]

in 1960s British Railways tried to Modernize to keep in competition with Road traffic by replacing steam with Diesel,in 2016/17,Southern Rail is now giving people more of a reason to drive cars

[@TenShine1productions]

talking about safety being improved after the event. just look at aviation as well for more evidence

[@cavanaghcreative_YT]

The state of New South Wales in Australia are also going through similar troubles with the State Government (there are no public rail franchise rights in NSW - as of 2022) and Transport Unions over the State trying to implement D.O.O. onboard the newer (and unused) New Intercity Fleet (or NIFs) from Korea. ~ 11 Feb 2022.

[@MushOfficial]

Another great GTI Chris! I am absolutely loving these

[@parkerproductions4546]

This has become my favourite video out of the GTI series! Top work, Chris! :)

[@Frserthegreenengine]

"Southern are the most unreliable service in Britain" Northern: "Allow us to introduce ourselves!"

[@Captain_Yorkie1]

😂

[@TheClaudHamilton]

I really don't think Southern have thought the whole DOO thing through properly. It's one thing to try and cut costs, but cutting vital corners and gambling with people's lives just isn't on - in fact, it all rings a similar tone to the Thunderbirds episode "Brink of Disaster", which basically centres around a driverless high-speed monorail system that doesn't even have a manual override or an onboard supervisor. I'm all in favour of rail travel myself, but if staff levels are going to drop this low on long-distance travel, they might as well have done away with every safety system imaginable, even started using nitro-glycerine instead of diesel or electric power! Mark my words, everyone, soon enough, there's going to be a massive loss of life one day, and the chief executives of Southern are going to find themselves bankrupt and behind bars.

[@DagorDagorathSauron]

"The nation that made railways a form of public transport can't have all 3 because...." Maximising corporate profits?

[@jakestrains2646]

I love this please continue with this amazing series

[@leifvejby8023]

Worse here, we have unmanned trains - we have to look after each other.

[@AshHill07]

Thameslink have been operating at higher speeds over a longer distance Driver Only for over 25 years now, with fewer unsafe departure issues than many companies that do employ guards. I still fail to understand why this has suddenly become an issue.

[@cmdrflake]

Amtrak in the former colonies has had single engineer(engine driver) for years. They had to accept it in view of the alternative!

[@rushs11]

No they didn't. The trains still have conductors (guards in UK terms) as well as assistants to make sure all protocols are being followed. The only positions they have been phasing out are station agents and ticket agents, which have been made redundant with the internet and ticket machines.

[@russellgxy2905]

Exactly. Only Systems with high-level security like rapid-transit subway and airport air train systems can really afford one-man or even no-man operation. National rail systems are too vast to afford for that.

[@J0nnyGT]

I'm a driver in the UK and the thought of DOO really does frighten me. Only yesterday I had a fight breakout and someone else reported a theft ON THE SAME TRAIN! Without my guard I would have been in serious trouble. I would hope that the travelling public support us when the DOO travels around to other regions. Another item, I'm pleased you called the guard a GUARD and not a conductor. That's their true grade!! I also call the travelling public PASSENGERS rather than customers.

[@J0nnyGT]

Thanks for sharing your experience Pete. What is the publics general thought on DOO and strikes? I always think what my passengers think of me as a driver.

[@J0nnyGT]

Peter Lewis - I love my job and wouldn't do everything I can to ensure the paying passengers receive the best service. I believe that the rail network as a whole is going expand exponentially is the coming years and the big companies want to cut jobs to maximise profits. It's not completely accurate but one way of thinking about it is to comparison to a supermarket. Some are struggling as to save money self service tills are now the normal. Would passengers get on a plane with one pilot?

[@mattsmocs3281]

Amtrak. Safer and smarter than southern. Well every god darn railroad in the US and Canada is smarter. You need 2 members no matter what. Cause if you lose the engineer even on PTC lines then you are in major trouble. Heck there should be firemen again on many trains. It would be safer and Hoboken terminal would have less damage.

[@Eliteerin]

"We've lost our guard" but Thomas wasn't listening

[@josheaton7864]

Been waiting for this for ages looks promising

[@sirLegoalex]

On a lighter note, what's your opinion model railways and do you have one? I'd like to see this on gauge the issue.

[@absinthefandubs9130]

Here in Germany guards have been slowly phased out for about a decade now. Sometimes the planets align weirdly and then they send in someone to check tickets, but that's becoming rarer and rarer. Not that I mind, I believe in a basic human right to mobility, but the security issues are still there, and on rural lines WAY more so than on urban ones. Drunk city dwellers will be loud, but drunk yokels are a danger to everyone whose skin is any shade they don't see in their village.

[@porterbrookston7827]

To Chris Eden-Green, In my eyes it is quite simple why Southern are acting so strangely. They are trying to decrease costs. Training guards and insuring them probably costs a decent amount, but On-board supervisors could be trained for less, cost less to insure because they aren't allowed off the train, and could be paid less because of the lower training and responsibility. I believe that Southern is trying to cut costs by undermining its safety personnel.

[@Alcofoamer]

Two words: Lac-Megantic

[@russellgxy2905]

I get entirely what you mean here. Some ideas can be good in concept, but in cases like this, it's not really okay to go with the minimum requirement. I have a similar, though conflicting, issue with conductors no longer using cabooses in the states. Unlike in the U.K., cabooses were mainly used to let the conductor keep an easy eye on the train, and not just to add extra brakes in the event of a runway. While having both driver and conductor in the cab is good for communication, freight trains still run the risk of having cars near the end breaking loose (yes even with the knuckle couplers). Besides, passenger trains using electric locomotives almost never have both crew members in the same place nowadays because of the two cabs, and they still don't have as many accidents as freight trains.

[@steveng6271]

Some one get FatHatt on the phone and tell him to take control.

[@PottersVideos2]

3:00 Nonsense, if they are a representative of the landowner then they aren't trespassers.

[@barryosullivan5255]

just a thought for a future video per-say, i was re-watching your review on the livery issue aswell and when i saw the standard engines, aswell as remembering the video on the standard four tanks being the best engines for preservation, thought of a topic. British Rail standard engines perfect for preservation, yes or no.

[@n1thmusic229]

I personally thing we should do GOO. Guard only Operation, let's face it self-driving trains have existed in the UK since the DLR in the 1980s, we don't need drivers. Guards on the other hand are necessary for closing doors, checking tickets, and for maintaining safety on board and when everyone needs to get off in an emergency. At my local station one time I saw some drunk stoner try to board while stumbling arounds and the guards managed to prevent him from boarding and rightfully so, the driver can't do that. Also you can ask questions regarding delays, maintenaces, journey time, etc. to the guard. I think we should get rid of the driver who just stands there moving around a lever.

[@TailsFan369no2]

This is/was twu 234 November 2009 all over again How much longer before word of train fire? Have the companies even HEARD of lac megantic?

[@RailFan60121]

Would you ever consider doing one of these pod casts on Bashers and Flailing? Just as a suggestion as i know its a touchy subject for some and people have a lot of views on it Thank you for your consideration

[@richardharrold9736]

One little mistake I've noticed in all the GTI videos: in the intro, it always says "soley" where you meant to type "solely". I hate to be THAT GUY, but typos escaping the proof-reading stage bug the hell out of me!

[@DiegoLiger]

Bravo! A concise explanation of why DOO and down-grading Guards is stupid and dangerous. To be honest, bring back the Secondman, too - in case the Driver suffers from a serious attack of ill health.

[@keikoandgilly]

Dunno about you, but I would leave DOO to the London Underground and the main trains must have a supervisor, guard, and driver.

[@dyfansgwr8851]

hey Chris I might have a loco for sole slip Taff Vale 28 the last surviving steam loco built in Wales she is at the gwili railway in Carmarthen!

[@raymondleggs5508]

All aboard the Doo Doo train.

[@Steamtostay]

I'd argue that the guard (or conductor) is more important than the driver.

[@AshHill07]

Not really. I mean its more important that the train is actually capable of moving than there be someone on board to supervise passengers. Nobody's going to sit on a train that's not going anywhere.

[@Steamtostay]

/insert joke here. But seriously, driverless trains are probably better than trains without guards/conductors/etc from a customer service perspective.

[@josheaton7864]

Saw you at the keighnly and worth valley railway today had a photo with you 4/3/17

[@highdownmartin]

southern driver here, all very fair and correct, wish the media put it out like this. southern/GTR are being forced by the government to do this DOO stuff so as to make the franchises more lucrative,attract more biddersin future . gets abit embarassing when there could be one bidder, not what the privatisation of the network was all about. Tory Fail

[@ChristheXelent]

VERY much on your side here. Although I've only volunteered on heritage lines, I can very much appreciate the stresses that all drivers have to go through. It's quite ridiculous to see it escalate the way it has, and it's worrying to see that it looks set to get worse as other TOCs go the same way.

[@groupcaptainbonzo]

So. How many trains have failed to run because the “Guard” failed to turn up ?

[@TERRYBARTLETTRAILMAN28]

good issue Chris I agree

[@JakeBSteam]

Well said Chris :)

[@britishrailways4810]

I DOO believe that pioneering trains had to be put into reverse to stop them. Sorry for the joke I'll leave now

[@NeededFourOfficial]

3:30 Chris, do you reckon you'd be willing to throw this movie, Emperor of the North, in as a possibility for Gauge the Issue?

[@steamandsmoke97]

I think it would be better for The Train now Starring.

[@NeededFourOfficial]

Yeah, probably.

[@goingnowherefast1834]

i belive DOO is in place in metro south australia

[@clangerbasher]

Do French railways have DOO?

[@cliffleigh7450]

Everyday millions of people around the world travel on driverless trains. Where are your statistics to show that they are any less safe? In fact in a lot of accidents involving trains with TWO persons in the cab, the SECOND person has done nothing to prevent it. There are plenty of examples of this.

[@michaelroyhulme4313]

Chris I find your videos very interesting and the and the gauge issue l agree with you do or not to do do we should be a guard for anti-social behaviour and and protection of the public as well down to is the cost of the bottom line our days is is acceptable.

[@terrariafanthefloran]

Southern Rail Dislike This

[@ChrisJohnson-nc4il]

Don't "DOO" it

[@FutureRailProductions]

The Southern Line in the UK can just rust away for all I care. I don't even care about the strikes I just care about the fact that they stole Southern Railways(Now Norfolk Southern) logo.

[@FutureRailProductions]

At least the font.

[@finndahuman57]

What DOOdy thats is I mean its really a lot of DOOdy to have DOO

[@firefox5926]

8:05 then how are they not just guards in everything but name ?

[@firefox5926]

8:33 well yeah because it would cost to much to fit all the trains with breaks....

[@firefox5926]

9:12 its hardly unforeseeable that a train needs breaks ... and in fact the very fact that's systems that would have prevent these accidents from occurs already existed in a lot of cases somebody must have foreseen something else why invent a thing to prevent it ...

[@grahamariss2111]

How many guards does a train need, 1, 2, 3........100 for the desired level of safety to be achieved? If you argue one guard has been enough in the past then that is the same argument as Southern made for using UK past experience of DOO.The question instead is do passengers want a guard for the very rare circumstances they are an advantage or would they rather have a cheaper fare? Evidence is that passengers want DOO and other advances in procedure to give them cheaper fares.

[@zaklex3165]

Also the fact it's quite common around Europe, it's not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

[@adrianrosenlund-hudson8789]

It's all very simple. Profit profit profit...

[@DidgeAvi]

This was a very interesting video, nice to see you getting political. I didn't really know much about this at all so it's nice to see you explaining it in detail, this kinda stuff doesn't get covered in NZ Cheers Of

[@uniquely.mediocre1865]

What are you saying at 8:34?? I'm American and ur accent got really thick at that point so idk how to spell the location.

[@ChristheXelent]

Armagh. It's an Irish place which is pronounced 'arma'

[@uniquely.mediocre1865]

@@ChristheXelent thank you

[@calldfwp2230]

everyone's focusing on how bad northern fail (sorry, northern rail) are when really they look like south western railway (still shit at least they've only had one strike over guards this year and their trains are two minutes late at most) compared to southern rail

[@oliverthegreatwesternengin8029]

Give this comment a like if you like this intro too.

[@alanrobertson9790]

Around 9.42 you say that "on public transport peoples lives need protecting with the maximum possible protection at all times". This is a ridiculous argument. Risks need to be balanced against costs. Safety cases are geared to making this argument. Why do you drive on the motorway at 70 mph and not 7 mph? An easy illustration why costs too need to be considered. Politically you might think what you are saying sounds good but actually its ludicrous!