GBD14: Horses in British Folklore (with Ronald Hutton and Hugh Lupton)

In this special episode, I talk with British historian Ronald Hutton and British storyteller Hugh Lupton. We discuss the Mari Lwyd and other horses of British folklore, as well as mumming plays, the Welsh language, the festival calendar, and other topics. Also included is Hugh’s wonderful song “The Mari Lwyd” (Hugh wrote the words; the music was written and performed by Chris Wood). The episode is punctuated here and there with footage of the Mari Lwyd from my recent visit to Wales.
-Ronald Hutton describes the Mari Lwyd. (3:10)
-Hutton explains why the Mari Lwyd’s appearances in Casnewydd (Newport) are politically charged. (5:48)
-Hutton offers some possible explanations as to why the Welsh language has fared better than other Celtic tongues. (6:45)
-Hutton describes the horn dance at Abbots Bromley and tells about its provenance and history. (8:06)
-“The Mari Lwyd,” a beautiful song by Hugh Lupton and Chris Wood (11:42)
-my conversation with Hugh Lupton (17:00)
-Lupton tells how he got into storytelling. (17:42)
-Lupton and I discuss his Mari Lwyd song (26:30)
-We discuss the Mari Lwyd, Halloween, and Christmas. (31:12)
-I tell the story of how a blues singer called Peetie Wheatstraw was belatedly allowed to enter a church house in his hometown of Cotton Plant, Arkansas. (34:52)
-We talk about the magic and meaning of mumming plays. (37:52)
-Lupton talks about the rhythm and mystery of the ritual year. (51:04)
-We talk about how Lupton crafts a story and then brings it to life in the telling. (56:00)
-Lupton’s advice for aspiring storytellers. (1:02:44)
Special thanks to Ronald Hutton, Hugh Lupton, Richard Atkin, Gwen Evans, and Amelia Genao.

[@hArtyTruffle]

I found that song moving too. Great upload. Thankyou ✨🙏✨

[@gregbrowndervilledimension]

Thank you, @hArtyTruffle!

[@stumccabe]

I don't know anything about English folklore, but do know of a few other occurrences of horses. There is the "obby oss" which is part of the Mayday celebrations in Padstow in Cornwall and of course, the mythical first Anglo Saxons to arrive in Britain were the brothers Hengist and Horsa (meaning stallion and horse). (A believe a similar myth occurs in Sanskrit!)

[@gregbrowndervilledimension]

Thank you for this comment, @stumccabe! If memory serves, Hutton mentions the Padstow May in Ep. 22. You might enjoy that one.

[@iamthewolfboy]

I agree wholeheartedly that 'Halloween' is a foreshadowing of Yule, the solstice and the darkness and hardships at midwinter, deaths frost covered glove on your shoulder. In Hakkon the Goods saga he explains how horses were sacrificed to bring about powerful favours especially at Yule. The horses were scarificed, skinned and the skins including the head, draped over wooden frames replicating them as in life, perhaps this is a very ancient precursor to horses used in rituals such as hobbyhorses and Mari Lywd? I guess all we are left with as a tool is intuition in matters so ancient. Thanks for posting this , it was as always, interesting.

[@gregbrowndervilledimension]

Thank you for this fascinating thoughts, @iamthewolfboy. I am intrigued by the possibility that this draping of horse skins might suggest a proto-Mari.

[@beatleowl]

Another excellent episode!

[@gregbrowndervilledimension]

Thank you so much, @beatleowl!

[@giuseppersa2391]

Dearest Greg your episode is impeccably timed... I'm busy with 200 lasagna and you will make for great company! 🌹👌😎😊

[@gregbrowndervilledimension]

Thanks, Giuseppe-I think you’ll find Hugh Lupton very interesting. PS: 200 is impressive!

[@francescafoot9739]

lots of fascinating and evocative stuff but we lost the horses halfway through

[@gregbrowndervilledimension]

@francescafoot9739, you have a point! I have a tendency to wander, I’m afraid.

[@Khatoon170]

How are you doing mr Greg. Thank you for your wonderful cultural channel. As I told you before iam Arabic lady subscriber to several British and American KZbin channels. We are as foreigners subscribers as overseas students want to increase our cultural level improve our English language as well literature lovers too. Actually I learned there are British customs on Eve of Christmas as Halloween when people spent night at spooky places haunted hotels . I read just read right now about Mari Lwyd it’s Welsh costums means grey mare horse figure carried from door to door wassail - singing groups during Christmas season . It’s folk custom found in South Wales. This tradition entails use of eponymous hobby horse which is made from horse skull mounted on pole and carried by individual dual hidden under sackcloth . This custom first record in 1800 . Have given various names reference to Mary mother of Jesus means originally “ grey mare “. Although this tradition declined in early mid 20 th century due to local Christian clergy and changing of social traditions. The story of Mari Lwyd is pregnant horse sent out of stables when Mary arrived to have Jesus . She spent dark days roaming land trying to find somewhere new to have foal . Iam so sorry to be little long but reading and writing both are great ways to improve our English as none native speakers. Good luck to you your dearest ones . I hope you like my research.

[@gregbrowndervilledimension]

Hi, Khatoon! Thank you so much for watching my videos and researching the topics. I hope you continue to find the episodes educational and engaging.

[@YorkyOne]

​​​​@@gregbrowndervilledimension The story of the pregnant horse being forced out of the stable to accommodate a pregnant Mary is patently a modern neo-pagan effort to explain the name 'Mari Lwyd' and at the same time tarnish the image of Mary and Joseph (ie Christianity). The story does not occur in folklore - 'Mari Lwyd' almost certainly simply means 'Grey Mare'. And there were other names for very similar hobby horses in Wales (pen ceffyl, y warsel) - so it is actually not unique. See EC Cawte 'Ritual Animal Disguises '.

[@gregbrowndervilledimension]

@@YorkyOne I need to follow up with Caitlin to see what her source was.

[@YorkyOne]

​​​​@@gregbrowndervilledimension It appears the origins of the story are from Welsh folklorist IC Peate. In 1943 he made two suggestions; that mari lwyd meant Grey Mare - mari being the English word mare and pronounced 'mari' until about 1400 or that it meant Grey Mary or Holy Mary. Cawte points out that mari is valid for Mary but lwyd meant holy only in mediaeval bardic poetry. Peate's reasoning being that there are similarities between the mari lwyd and local wassail customs and the wassail songs sometimes reference Mari or Mair meaning the Virgin. He suggested an older horse custom became attached to this 'Mary singing'. Cawte agrees that the horse might well have become attached to a wassail ceremony but notes wassail customs though absorbing Christian ideas have no special association with Mary. Cawte then points out that the similar English Customs are called 'the hooden horse', 'the old horse', 'the wild horse' etc and as mari lwyd is meant to represent a horse then 'the Grey Mare' would be the most likely meaning. 'Ritual Animal Disguises' was published in 1978 and makes no mention of the supposed pregnant Mary and horse folktale. And it is doubtful that poet and scholar IC Peate who co-founded the St Fagans National Museum of (Welsh) History would have been unaware of the story's existence. I think we can safely assume the story was concocted sometime after 1980.

[@YorkyOne]

​​@@gregbrowndervilledimension Interestingly it would appear the other team have also got their version of this story. Mary and Joseph find that the stable already houses a pregnant mare. Mary says she can't possibly kick the poor animal out and sets off into the night. The mare winnies for Mary to return. To cut a long story short - the horse gets the power of speech, they agree to share the stable, in thanks Mary gives the mare a blanket to keep warm and the name Mary. I wonder which piece of propaganda came first.