Genesis: When Did They Go Bad?

Let's talk Genesis. When did we lose that once incredible progressive music to pop tunes in hopes of a hit?
#vinylcommunity #vinylcollection #vinylrecords #progrock

[@BrockwaysVinylBytes]

Indeed the sound of Genesis does change around the departure of Steve Hackett. He’s an undisputed, soft spoken genius.

[@danielfuentes3226]

A great show.I always like the Peter Gabriel era of Genesis.They have great albums by his time,but they did change when Steve Hackett left the band.

[@donaldanderson6604]

October 1977. Steve left and that was it. I saw them in June 77 in London and they were magnificent. Subjective but true! Expect a lot of flack but well done.

[@gileslesmith]

Great show! I was born in 1963 and the first song I heard on the radio was Follow you follow me. At the time I was living in a small German village and my parents were absolutely not interrested in Rock music. Also there was no brother or sister to teach me. My discovery of Prog came one or two years later when we moved to a bigger town. There I heard The Knife and Musical Box and man, it was a different beast. So I started collecting Genesis albums up to Duke and that was it.

[@craigherriot4026]

Really enjoyed this show. Liked and subbed straight away. Yeah, Genesis is always a contentious one. Like many people I think the soul of Genesis departed with Steve. I do believe there are still some strong moments on ATTWT and Duke. It went to he'll in a handcart after that though.

[@SpinninProg]

We have to agree. It was a video we expected to cause trouble and we approached it with trepidation. Glad to say most people are on the same page. Welcome to the channel. 👍

[@vmacart]

great show. thanks. ... music is the best ...

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks. We appreciate your support. 👍

[@PhilipRandall-sl2hi]

What a wonderful episode! As a fifteen year old I bought And Then There Were Three on the day it was released and, like Tara, I was incredibly disappointed by it. I loved Tara’s description of a “betrayal” and I must say I felt exactly the same. I went on to watch them at Knebworth in 1978 and thoroughly enjoyed the gig and indeed saw them on the Duke tour too but for me the music was never the same after Hackett left the band. I continue to see Hackett live to this day and for me he is the only member of Genesis who is able to make me feel the same way that I did when I was that eager 15 year old rushing to buy the latest release from my favourite band. As you can tell I’m getting on a bit but still love those amazing early albums.❤

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks for your wonderful insights and sharing your experience. Gabriel was the heart of Genesis and Hackett remains the soul of the band. 👍

[@stuartwaby3081]

My thoughts too, Phil even said that they should have changed their name after Steve left. Tony later admitted that he had to write simpler Music to accommodate the lack of a Guitarist.

[@killianlpc]

Without doubt the departure of Steve was so evident on And Then There Were Three. When I bought that album in 1978 I remember playing it and really wanting to like it but I didn't. In retrospect I like it much more now than I did then, as there are some great songs on that album like Deep In The Motherlode. Burning Rope and Down And Out. It's incredible that Steve put plenty of his work forward to Genesis but it was rejected. Shadow Of The Hierophant ( who he wrote with Mike ), Please Don't Touch, and others like early works of Every Day were rejected. His contributions on A Trick of The Tail and Wind And Wuthering were superb, with And Then There Were Three the romanticism was gone after Steve's departure. I think as a solo artist Steve has been the best of them all in proliferation and quality of music. Regarding Peter, I loved Car, Scratch and Melt. After that I really didn't like much of Peter 's solo work, it's just my opinion. I thought Duke was actually a better album that ATTWT. It was much more structured, and Duke's Suite is almost a swansong to the 70's as it really is a 'Proggy Piece'. I have to admit ABACAB is without doubt their worst album, I absolutely hated that record and still do. All of this is very subjective of course because even though I preferred the Gabriel era, ATOTT and WAW are my two favourite albums, and in fairness to Phil he did a brilliant job taking over as lead vocalist. Was lucky enough to see Steve play his last series of shows with the band at The Rainbow in 1977 where Chester debuted too, and The Earls Court show in The Summer of that year which was just phenomenal. I saw the 2007 tour in Amsterdam and the renditions of the old medley In The Cage/Cinema Show/Dukes Travels/Afterglow: Firth of Fifth/ I Know What I Like: Ripples, Dance On A Volcano and Los Endos were off the charts. Again there was just too much stuff of Invisible Touch, but I was glad I saw it for the old songs done so well. To be honest seeing Steve still tour and paying such great homage to his time with the band and his deep love of that music is amazing. If anyone wants to see old Genesis catch Steve Hackett live his shows are just sublime. Nice vid guys and great to see an Irish Prog channel. Keep up the good work.

[@SpinninProg]

Wow!!! What a fantastic piece of introspection. Sometimes I think it would be great if we could just sit around with some of the friends we've made through this channel and have great in-depth conversations. Tara and I were just talking today about how one way comments are and how nice it would be to have the back and forth needed at times. I don't really hate ATTWT. I think there's a good album in there somewhere. The production or something seems to swamp it for me and I just lose attention at times. It's still one I occasionally listen to and I think the intention was honourable. ABACAB was a learning platform for writing corporate rock and they were becoming aligned with marketing rather than art. That tour you mentioned... Wax that the one when they played in Rome?.. I liked that concert. Saw it on the telly. It was really good. Agreed on Hackett. We saw the Foxtrot at 50 tour and I have to say that this cynical old bastard she'd a tear during his solo at the end of Supper's Ready. 😁👍

[@killianlpc]

@@SpinninProg Yes the 2007 Rome show was the same one we were at in Amsterdam on 1st July. They really did play brilliantly on that tour. Thanks for the reply and agree, and take all the points you both mentioned. It's strange to like ATTWT better now than then, ABACAB is awful 100%

[@damienmatvienko435]

Why is there never no love for the Brazilian!!? An amazing instrumental... with a spine tingling crescendo. Nobody seems to ever mention it... I'm not a massive fan of Invisible Touch as an album, but the Brazilian seems to be overlooked for some reason, and makes the album worth a look for that finale alone....

[@SpinninProg]

A lot of the later albums have their moments alright. It's just what you have to sift through to get there? 😂😂😂

[@user-vy7fp8np1l]

Yes, I agree - The Brazilian is a fine work, as is another instrumental (a 'b' side to a single whose name I've forgotten) Do The Neurotic which I really enjoy.

[@jhillst]

I agree, it's the best track on Invisible Touch and the most progressive in terms of experimentation.

[@PJprog]

That smell you mentioned that surrounds the Abacab album Dermot... probably the Dodo still lurking about ! Sorry guys. 😲😅

[@SpinninProg]

Great!!!! 😂😂😂😂

[@BP-rn3nl]

Always enjoys your vids. Can I suggest you two do a top 10 album show of Yes and Genesis combined.

[@SpinninProg]

Great idea. It's going on the list. 👍

[@user-qs6xd3rk9z]

Duke was a great album I also love abacab

[@SpinninProg]

Duke is great. 👍

[@petertrotman7708]

The Dire/Rea period absolutely killed me....😂

[@pch2230]

There are two big problems with Genesis, for me. One is that they were always quite patchy, even in the Peter Gabriel era. The other is that no-one had the bottle to call Tony Banks' bluff when he was having one of his legendary hissy fits in the studio. When he stomped out because someone had dared suggest a three-day keyboard solo was a little excessive, they should have just locked the door and never let him back.

[@SpinninProg]

Banks does seem to have been a problem, alright. He even manages to come across as a bit difficult in interviews when he's trying to be charming. 😂😂😂👍

[@paulayers1111]

Trick question…they were always great! Their last few albums still had plenty of prog love

[@SpinninProg]

🤣🤣🤣🤣 brilliant

[@theasphaltworld849]

I agree that ATTWT isn't a great record (it's one of the Genesis albums I don't own for that very reason) but I like Duke, Abacab, self-titled and Invisible Touch. Yeah, neither of them were Foxtrot or The Lamb etc. but they'd already done that. Those albums shouldn't be confused with Phil Collins solo stuff either, because they're not really the same thing. We Can't Dance is where they really ran out of things to say in the voice of Genesis to my mind.

[@SpinninProg]

I can listen to ATTWT. I think there may be a good album in there somewhere. Maybe it was just rushed and they were trying to cope with the loss of Hackett. ABACAB after the opening track just loses me. I have the self titled one and find side one tolerable. Side two, I listened to once and that was it. That's where I checked out, I'm afraid. It all sounds too corporate. 👍

[@theasphaltworld849]

​@@SpinninProg"Dodo/Lurker" is seriously one of my favourite Genesis tracks. Powerful intro and great drum groove. I agree that the first side of self-titled is better than the second side (I'll never have any time for "Illegal Alien"), Invisible Touch still has epics like "Tonight Tonight Tonight" and "Domino" on it. It's funny, I'm sure Fish-era Marillion were trying to be '70s Genesis, but they seem to have more in common with '80s Genesis.

[@jhillst]

@@SpinninProg Abacab is very underappreciated, I think. I'd argue that it has some of the most daring and experimental work Genesis did ever since The Lamb. No Reply At All has some killer bass guitar and keyboard work, and the polyrhythms in Keep It Dark are unlike anything else I've ever heard. Me And Sarah Jane is a one-of-a-kind Genesis song also -- it has almost as many different sections as Supper's Ready, but in only six minutes instead of twenty-three. Whodunnit will always have a lot of haters of course, but I think it's a cool, bizarre experimental piece and not their worst song by a longshot.

[@tableface77]

Yep! Hit the nail on the head. Duke was the last of the classic Genesis albums, which I consider to be a 70's record anyway as it was created and recorded in 1979. I was able to tolerate ABACAB - just about - but this was definitely the point where the sweet turned to sour😉. 1983's self-titled album was my absolute "throw the record player at the wall" moment.

[@SpinninProg]

Great comment. It's been interesting to hear how everyone's tolerance was stretched to the limit until they gave up. They were making music for another blander audience. Short term thinking ensured they made shed loads of money prior to finally imploding. Great comment. Thanks.👍

[@4chrisroe]

Great watch guys and i loved the radio show! Have you heard the new Big Big Train LP? Quite Genesis like in parts, in a good way. 👍

[@SpinninProg]

Yes we have it. A great listen. Thanks for tuning in on the radio too. 😁👍

[@stevesmith3990]

Love your honest thoughts here and the sense of humour. And Then There Were Three I always really loved though, to me it still has that old Genesis sound. 100% agree though that Abacab was was the biggest pile of ****, they were sticking two fingers up to their fans with that one, in fact at a show in Holland on that tour they got booed! Somehow they increased their popularity I suppose on the back of Phil's solo career. After that I never bought another G album. I have always really struggled to understand how Tony Banks who wrote some of their best music in the 70's was happy turning out crap like Invisible Touch...Looking forward to the Yes video next, cheers.

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks. This video was fun and it was good to get all that off our chests. 👍

[@OniLink97]

Don't like then there were 3, but Duke to Genesis i really enjoy, particularly Genesis with Mama and Home by the Sea

[@markspooner1224]

A very good argument! I lost interest after Wind and Wuthering, I didn't decide to I just didn't enjoy the music anymore. Up until then it was magical and then it was just like norma music.

[@SpinninProg]

I have to agree. Wind and Wuthering is the last great artistic statement from the band. 👍

[@muleman72]

Still they had Domino And Home by the Sea that was in my opinion Great Songs!

[@SpinninProg]

Two great songs alright. 👍

[@scottburns2600]

You got it. These stale Gabriel era people don't understand how they stayed faithful to to their origins by writing those longer pieces into their later albums

[@SpinninProg]

@@scottburns2600 Still creeping in the comments and looking for an argument, you won't get one here mate. Jog on.

[@bruceg9519]

I was done after the ABACAB album..some of which I like Man on the Corner and Me and Sarah Jane for example..I always liked Phil's drumming..thank God he did those albums with Brand X... unbelievable records ..if you haven't heard them you should definitely check them out. One last thing,Tara when you said "Oh no" your face was priceless! I couldn't stop laughing! 😂 Keep up the good work! 👍

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks. Brand X rock!!!! Totally agreed. 👍

[@mythoflogic]

I must say that I also bought ATTWT right when it came out and I love it. It's a close cousin to Wind & Wuthering for me.

[@georgeprior-vinylshowtell4934]

Great video you guys and great topic. May ramble a bit here, so bear with me: At the moment, Genesis may well be my favourite band of all, I listen to them the most. Whenever I tell anyone I love Genesis though, I feel the need to stress 'only the early stuff', just so everyone is clear! I've owned most of the 80s albums and got rid. My cut off point was Wind and Wuthering, but have recently rediscovered And Then.. and have really been enjoying it. Agreed, a muddy sound on this - not helped by nearly an hour of music on one disc. Anything over 45 minutes starts having issues with fidelity, as you probably know. Duke - has it's moments, but really not great Abacab - awful Genesis/Self Titled - a bit of a return to form. Mama I adore, I think it's a brilliant song (maybe I'll get the 12" single of this??!) Invisible Touch - Really bad. A product of slick 80s over production We Can't Dance - No, please! The title track is beyond bad. They are the prime example of a band in decline from the middle point. When you consider how good they were '70 to '77. At least we had an incredible run - the first album is pretty good as well actually, what are your thoughts on this? Don't get me started on Phil Collins solo.

[@SpinninProg]

Couldn't agree more on just getting the 12' single of Mama and avoiding the rest, great idea! 🤣

[@NothingLikeVinyl]

Peter Gabriel's departure isn't what ended Genesis as we knew it. It was Steve Hackett's departure. "Inside and Out" is one of the best examples of the perfect swan song. The last truly great Genesis song to me, thanks to Hackett's dominating presence in that track as his final bow. BTW, Chicago is another perfect band for this kind of discussion.

[@SpinninProg]

Great input. Chicago were running through my mind as we were making the video. The only problem is that we only have great Chicago albums. I'd have to buy awful albums full of sickly ballads to hold up as props in the video... Oh my god!!!! I feel sick... Only joking. 😂😂😂 You're right. We will cover them too. 👍

[@LightBeamer777]

For me, an original Genesis fan, the loss of Gabriel was huge, but PC stepped in and admirably took the lead vocals. He did a great job with TotT and W&W. The wheels fell off with aTTWT. Something was just missing on this attempt at prog. That something was Hackett. From Duke onwards there are a few songs I like...Dukes Travels-Dukes End, Home by the Sea-Second Home by the Sea, and Keep it Dark. That's about it. For me Genesis was woeful in their pop phase. I absolutely despise the We Can't Dance album. There are no redeeming songs on there. Thanks for your take on the Genesis catalog.

[@SpinninProg]

Great input. I agree with you. It's also interesting that they changed from an album experience to songs. I don't think I can escape from wanting the album to bring me on a big adventure the way only Genesis could. 👍

[@antoniodias4718]

Great video!!! I agree with Tara and her father that Genesis who made "Foxtrot" and "Selling England By the Pound" doesn't seem the same band that did "Abacab" or "Invisible Touch", what I disagree is when started the real change. For me "...And Then There Were Three," is a little disappoiment but not a bad album at all!! Songs like "Burning Rope", "Deep in The Motherlode" and especially "The Lady Lies" has some hints of prog rock and are not a shame to prior albums. Ok "Follow you Follow me" is pure pop and no prog at all but "Snowbound" and "Many Too Many" are enjoyable pop-rock songs. "Duke" is a little different, it begins with two great songs and it seems it would be better than "ATTWT" but we were being fooled, it has" Misunderstanding" and "Turn it on again" which blows away all prog rock music they did. "Man of Our Times, "Please don't ask" and "Alone Tonight" are just poppy But it ends well too with "Duke's Travels" and "Duke's End" , I agree with "Abacab" being the final run for Genesis prog. I must say I only hate one Genesis album, oh two!!! "From Genesis to Revelation" and " Calling All Stations" they are really bad. The pop albuns I like them but just that, I like. I love Genesis in the seventies. My list would be: 1 "Selling England By The pound" 2 "Foxtrot" 3 "A Trick Of The Tail" 4 "Nursery Cryme" 5 "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" 6 "Wind And Wuthering" 7 "Trespass". To end my long commentary I think the first appearance of an almost pop song is in "Wind and Wuthering" with "Afterglow" and "Your Own Special way" which doesn't mean they are bad songs!! They are great!! See you!! Long live prog-rock lovers and long live rock and roll!!!

[@SpinninProg]

Great list and commentary. Looking back at the video, I shouldn't have called And Then There Were Three a bad album. I just meant it was a down turn. I think there's good stuff in there, but I find the sound of it to be ponderous and muddy. I would agree that there is some good music on there. Agreed on Duke... It's topped and tailed well. I think there was an epic there that was deconstructed. I should have mentioned Small Creeps Day too. A good, but slightly flawed album at the same time. My point was that there was goodness still there until ABACAB. That album has a completely different artistic execution and was meant to be what it was... An attempt to distance themselves from the past and root themselves in the emerging 80s culture. Not a happy decade for me, as far as music went. Thanks for the comments and ongoing support. We've made some great friends in the prog community... The best community. 👍

[@jaregoguzoref4821]

They never went bad. They went different. I'm a fan of all eras. From Trespass to WCD. It's amazing how they managed all these years of increasing success, reforming after major line up changes, having the balls to say fuck it we'll not replace him ! doing the music they like, how often (or rarely) they like (3 years between self titled Genesis album and IT, and 5 years between IT and WCD)

[@johnthomas8606]

Agree, though my interest in their output stopped at the Shapes LP. Songwriters from the start distilled down to the manageable size for the long ride.

[@JohnLRice]

I see "And Then There Were Three" as the Genesis "swan song", their last breath of greatness. Sure, ATTWT was like a shadow of the perfection of A Trick Of The Tale and Wind and Wuthering, and I agree that it suffered from the seemingly poorer recording/mixing quality compared to two previous albums. (maybe they were depressed and/or had weaker label support for that album?) I actually didn't give Duke a chance for like because the radio stations were playing "Misunderstanding" nonstop and it wanted to make me puke 🤮😅 so that coupled with the downslide of ATTWT (there are two or three stinkers on that album I can't stand to listen to) I just didn't bother with the album. (I did enjoy Turn It On Again well enough though). But in recent years I dug into Duke and really enjoy most of it now, although if held at gun point and told I could only listen to one of the albums for the rest of my life I'd take ATTWT without hesitation, based on the strength of these four songs alone: "Down And Out", "Undertow", "Snowbound", "Burning Rope", and "The Lady Lies"! 🥰 So, I generally see both And Then There Were Three and Duke as the blurred line turning point, with And Then There Were Three as the last gasps of old Genesis and Duke as the beginning whispers of new Genesis, with elements of old and new in both albums. And then when ABACAB came out I was F'ing DONE! 💀I tried to give it a chance but the only part I can say I like is "Home By the Sea/Second Home By The Sea" which was really great in concert. (I saw them on that tour and was mostly disappointed, they played almost exclusively their most poppy stuff)

[@jhillst]

Home By The Sea is on the self-titled album, not Abacab.

[@JohnLRice]

@@jhillst Ahh 🤦‍♂thanks for the correction! 😎👍

[@user-qs6xd3rk9z]

I can't dance was worse than calling all stations

[@SpinninProg]

Both are sub par. I've never listened to either. I'll take your word for which one is worse. 👍

[@samanthag2740]

I’m surprised more people don’t have this opinion. Minus 3 songs We Can’t Dance is fairly unlistenable. CAS has good ideas it’s just missing a 3rd component to mix it up with Tony & Mike.

[@SpinninProg]

@@samanthag2740 Agree totally. It was all over by those albums. 👍

[@jason-budney7624]

Once Hackett left the magic of Genesis was gone. I could never understand how my uncle liked both eras of the band. The thing that makes me dislike the band so much from 'And Then There Were Three" and beyond is just how far they distance themselves and buried all that amazing music they did!

[@SpinninProg]

Great point. They pushed back on their own history and even helped to denigrate their contemporaries. 👍

[@user-vy7fp8np1l]

Yes, I agree. I am convinced without Steve Hackett involved, the group could not retain that magical chemistry that made them special.

[@gkirms]

But Phil, Mike & Tony made the decision to go the way that they did musically. They could have stayed the course and made more albums like 'And Then There Were Three' but they didn't.

[@SpinninProg]

@@gkirms Unfortunately that was the case. We'll never know what they might have done had they followed their previous artistic direction.

[@martinboucher1305]

I normally agree with your opinions but I have to say 'and then there were three' is my personal favourite' genesis album. I do love all the early stuff and also some of the later stuff actually. Luckily we don't all like the same thing. All the best. Your yes album top 20 was very good!

[@SpinninProg]

I must say, I actually enjoy And Then There Were Three. I just think it's flawed and let down by the sound on the album. I'm afraid Tara was more unforgiving on that one. I thought Genesis held it together until ABACAB. But you're right. The prog community is a large tent and there's room for all. 👍

[@martinboucher1305]

I love Tara's honesty & I have watched all of your episodes and enjoyed them. Genesis had lost Hackett (I love his recent stuff and seen him live a few times) & Gabriel (he was more of a solo artist for me as I discovered Genesis late). They then, under Phil's influence more perhaps as the singer moved with the times & went more commercial. For me though, deep in the motherlode, burning rope, snowbound, ballad of big are amongst the best they've produced. I guess I can relate those songs to a time in MY life (I was 17). Looking forward to more episodes with this theme. Keep on doing what you do guys ♥️🤘🎵

[@SpinninProg]

@@martinboucher1305 Thanks Martin. Keep the comments coming. They're all great and jeep us motivated. This channel has been fantastic for us as we have developed some great friendships and had great discussions through the comments of the community that has built around the channel. 👍

[@tonypeake467]

I'm sorry you are getting hate in the commentary. Everyone has their opinions, but surely we can be respectful. I love your vids and very impressed at Tara's knowledge at a relatively young age. I am so grateful for the YT music channels, they are a major part of my life. I loved Dermots quote "I wanted to burn the farm in Surrey". Cheers from Australia. PS my brother is in Ireland at present en route to Iceland. Unfortunately I'm not sure which part.

[@tonypeake467]

Just had a look at heritage on mother's side. My brother and partner have traced that and made friends from Tipperary. What town are you from ?

[@SpinninProg]

We're from Clonmel. Glad you're enjoying the videos. We have a blast making them. It's just a pity some people are a bit insecure and cannot be relaxed about people having a laugh, and an opinion. 👍

[@tonypeake467]

Exactly ​@@SpinninProg

[@tonypeake467]

Will check your town on internet. Stay well

[@user-vy7fp8np1l]

Apart from the 1st single Silent Sun, their 1st album is abysmal (to me) while the sophomore is a significant improvement. Because Genesis were such an astonishingly successful pop group during the 1980s I give them credit for the achievement although I find 90% of that era tedious, apart from a few tracks here and there. I did not discover Genesis until 2002 so I cannot be accused of nostalgia here. While I acknowledge the compositional and lyrical genius of the Peter Gabriel era, I do prefer the voice and vocal style of Phil Collins. For me, the group lost the plot after Steve Hackett departed. I enjoy Follow You Follow Me - it's a splendid pop song - and we recorded our version of Turn It On Again because we like it - yet it is not, for me, the 'real sound' of Genesis, the group who gave us Selling England By The Pound. Therefore I agree with Tara: Then There Were Three marks the point at which the group plunged into the muck and mire of commercial pop pap, even though it was extremely well played and finely crafted pop pap...it was still pop pap from then onwards.

[@SpinninProg]

Dammit!!!! Tara is winning this hands down. That's what I get for being charitable towards them. You're right of course. Apart from the odd good song, they really went down hill and changed entirely in what they were setting out to achieve with the newer albums (💵💵💵💵). 👍

[@frederickbartel2837]

I'm fairly new to Genesis, but I do like Abacab. Not always up for a heavy album--sometimes I want to hear something lighter.

[@SpinninProg]

Fair comment. 👍

[@BenTevikMusic]

Really enjoyed the video! Totally in agreement. I wonder if you guys think Rush had a similar trajectory or if you think they were able to maintain their artistic integrity throughout the 80s? I think they still stayed progressive and Rush-like, but I’d be curious to hear your thoughts. Cheers!

[@SpinninProg]

Rush did get a bit worrying but never sold out totally, the way Genesis did. Although they picked up some of the '80s sounds, they remained true to their artistic integrity. 👍

[@davemurphy3275]

1981 was particularly bad , I can't dance was bad bad bad . They went a bit mainstream, although some albums were ok , eg duke . Great video. Thanks.

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks. 👍

[@user-yh5jm3cw5p]

I wanted to know what you both thought of Calling All Stations?? I personally thought it wasn't as bad as many people thought it was. I really liked Ray Wilson's voice. It might have been interesting to hear a second album with Ray! He did come in after the writing had bveen completed on CAS. I am looking forward to hearing from you. Enjoy your videos as always. Keith

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks Keith! We aren't very fond of it, however thought the treatment of Ray was very unfair. He deserved better

[@Darrylizer1]

I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Take the lyrics to Land of Confusion. In this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as anything I've heard in rock. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and Against All Odds. But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist.

[@SpinninProg]

Brilliant. 😂😂😂 Thanks Patrick. 👍😂😂😂

[@Darrylizer1]

@@SpinninProg Your're welcome! 😆

[@ericarmstrong6540]

For me, Abacab was where the suckage factor started to show its ugly head. After that, things began going down hill fast. That self-titled album with the yellow stars on it is a real turd in the punch bowl.

[@SpinninProg]

Couldn't agree more. 👍

[@alisonoconnor8661]

Tara and Dermot - excellent assessment of the demise of Genesis after Hackett left. Couldn't agree more, although I never even considered Duke. Like I said- great article, agree 100%! On a different note- it was gas to see the two of ye down in Bunker records in Cork with John. Great little shop and one I head to a few times a year although I have nt been there since ye made that particular video. I'm from Waterford and I was trying to pick ye're accent. Clonmel? Dungarvan? Although no where near as proggy as the two of ye - I would have the main prog bands in my handy size record collection. I'm a bit older than you Dermot (almost 60) and still pal around with lads I went to school with, and about once every 5 or 6 weeks we have a music night out in my friend's place. Beer, music, talking records, talking white, eating pizza! Great craic! My local pub in Waterford is Downes- we have music nights once a month. Vinyl Fridays it's called. Only if I or another pal get on the decks would you be likely to hear a bit of prog. Anyway - Tara- you're a gem! The only young person I know that's into the prog. We'll done to both of ye and I continue to watch ye're show and enjoy it. Must meet up one time? Anyway all the best - the channel is great! Kevin O'Connor.

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks very much Kevin! We're from Clonmel but we're both very fond of Waterford! Nice to meet you and absolutely we should meet up sometime 👍

[@alisonoconnor8661]

Good stuff! By the way - different topic - but I agree with your high ranking of Drama. Always amazed at the musicianship on that album. All the best and we'll talk at some stage! Maybe I'll have a prog night in my place one night when I have the house to myself. No neighbours where I live , so music can be blasted out without any grief from anyone. Good luck!

[@joeg6222]

They lost me after their 1983 s/t album, but thank you so much for your perspective!

[@SpinninProg]

I can tolerate, just about, side one of that album. Played side two once... Never again. 👍

[@melstercandies-ch2ml]

Great show! Dermot I think that your analogies are hilarious and spot on.Definitely not a fan of Abacab(ABACRAP),good jumping off point.

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks a million. We try to keep interesting and entertaining content coming. I think Tara won though. Most comments seem to agree with her that the rot set in with And Then There Were Three. 😭👍

[@BrockwaysVinylBytes]

One thing that baffles me is some of the songs that got left off the 80s albums in favour of songs like Whodunnit and such……. I mean really. They left off You Might Recall for that!

[@vinyltimewithamy1984]

Tara my twin soul, listening to you talk about music is as tho I’ve known you my whole life, did we meet across the veil 🌈 🩷 Let me fly to Ireland and we can gouge our eyes out together over the mishap albums released 😂 Imagination, imagination, imagination was lost once Gabriel and Hackett left. Peter Gabriel has changed the way I listened to music! I fell in love with all his obscured characters! I love him, I miss him, Genesis will never be the same! “Wind and Wuthering” and “Trick Of The Tail” were the last of Genesis in my opinion. I do love those two Phil Collin albums…..but after that I’m lost. Maybe Tara can guide me with her imagination on how to enjoy “Duke” 😁 Ohhhhh and I love dad’s reviews too 😆😂🤘🏼

[@SpinninProg]

Ahh Amy I'm so glad we met! I think we're definitely long lost sisters! I really want to do a deep dive into how important lyrics and resonance is in prog with you!

[@vinyltimewithamy1984]

@@SpinninProg yes, yes we need to do that…and share a few poetry tales. I am a dreamer, I love to float, most of my poetry are personal experiences dreaming through an album….if that makes any sense, but I feel you understand me….we seem to share the same music experiences 😊✨🌈

[@grahamharley4895]

You made this for me... Very strong views on this. After the Beatles I still bought a few albums but felt little emotional attachment to any band until ATTW3 and Duke believe it or not, probably down to Tony Banks increased involvement and majestic compositions. Totally agree about Abacab, but by then I loved them so much I went back in time with my album buying. It was definitely Abacab which killed it for me, nothing to do with preferring Peter or Phil until Abacab heralded them becoming Phil's backing group. Still my favourite band, (Beatles excepted) with ATTW3 and Duke towards the top. Opinions eh?

[@SpinninProg]

I really love Duke. It should have it's own video and we might get around to it. ATTWT is something I listen to now and again. I think there's a good album in there but the sound and production seem to let it down in my opinion. There's no excuse for ABACAB. it's a complete shift to corporate soft pop rock. And badly executed at that. Who Dunnit... For God's sake!!!! 😂😂😂😂👍

[@dan65536]

I admit later Genesis albums are a different thing entirely, being more conventional pop than the Hackett- and Gabriel-influenced albums, but that’s to be expected. I have lot of time for just about any Genesis album up to and including We Can’t Dance. I came to love Genesis originally from hearing abacab and Duke on classic rock radio as a teenager. Attw3 is admittedly far removed from WnW and all that came before, and not on the same level creatively, but the second side feels still quite progressive and there is a lot going on in Down and Out - it’s an energetic song with some clever syncopation in the rhythm.

[@dan65536]

I also liken Genesis’s transition to pop with attw3, to Marillion’s successful adoption of a new singer and a poppier approach after Fish’s departure. A topic for another day perhaps.

[@SpinninProg]

@@dan65536 indeed it could very well be. Maybe you've inspired us to look at how loss of crucial personnel has affected great bands. 👍

[@SpinninProg]

I managed to stay with them on ATTWT. I just think ABACAB is too different of a beast to even be described in the same cannon as their earlier material and it was a step into something else entirely.

[@dan65536]

@@SpinninProg Admittedly "Whodunit" is a very jarring beast of a track. Especially listening the first time you wouldn't expect that! ; )

[@stevecowder4774]

I actually got into Genesis with Duke and Abacab, during my college years in the early eighties. But that was before I realized how amazing they once were with Gabriel. Undoubtedly, those early albums would convert me into an eternal fan. And I’m also very fond of both Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering. But in spite of the loss of Hackett in ‘77, I’ve never had any issues with ‘ And then there were Three.’ I still think it’s a very nice, melodic album. I get where it’s a bit overly synthesized, but it definitely has its shining moments.

[@SpinninProg]

It certainly does, however as an experience it was nowhere near as magical as the likes of Foxtrot

[@stevecowder4774]

Foxtrot is a monumental achievement.

[@jeremyorr9227]

Do you think Hackett being gone signals the change in sound? Also I still don't understand the lack of guitar on the pop albums because of bands like steely Dan and Asia thoughts? Great video😁

[@SpinninProg]

Hackett leaving had a profound effect on the sound, I think. But the whole ethos of the band seems to have shifted to a less "prog" affair. The lack of the guitar could have been an attempt to follow anti-rock eighties trends. 🤔

[@jeremyorr9227]

@@SpinninProg yes agreed but steely Dan and Asia had success with pop but still had guitar without it they sound very bland and the use of drum machine as well thanks 😁

[@SpinninProg]

@@jeremyorr9227 yes. You are right. But Steely Dan and Asia showed the courage of their convictions. I don't know what Genesis were thinking. But it shows a willingness to become a manufactured and marketed product of that time. 👍

[@jeremyorr9227]

@@SpinninProg one question was this around the same time of crime of the century by Supertramp?😁

[@SpinninProg]

@@jeremyorr9227 Crime of the century was '74. And Then There Were Three was '78 and ABACAB was '81.

[@mythoflogic]

The last truly memorable Genesis album for me was "duke" (which is in my top three Genesis albums) although there is something to like on any Genesis album. "We Can't Dance" has the awful "I Can't Dance" but also has "Jesus Knows Me" and "Fading Lights".

[@SpinninProg]

I must agree Scott, it was the last hurrah. After that each album just a couple of good songs, but as complete albums they got very weak

[@kevinputry5655]

That's a really groovy old picture of you Dermot! But yeah, when did Genesis lose it? Even though they lost something after Peter Gabriel left it didn't slow them down a bit. Phil stepped up and was a fine frontman for A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering. I think most old school Genesis fans will at least agree that after Hackett left that was the turning point. That's the point things started going downhill. There's some OK tunes on that album but it is very disappointing. They were definitely more focused on Duke. Still retained some progginess. Yeah Abacab was very underwhelming and the only song I like from that one is the title track. I'd at least consider that one tune to be slightly proggy. So I don't know, maybe the point they absolutely lost it was their self titled album from 1983. By then any trace of the old Genesis was completely gone. But no doubt it all started going wrong on And Then There Were Three.

[@SpinninProg]

I think the real pain of ABACAB for me was that I liked the title track and was expecting a lot more like that. OMG how wrong I was. Side 2 of the self titled album is so amazingly bad it should be studied in colleges. Thanks for your kind words about Tara putting up that embarrassing picture. 👍

[@kevinputry5655]

@@SpinninProg LOL Why would you be embarrassed Dermot? You looked like a serious rocker in that picture! But yeah, I really hate when a band only has one good song on an album. At least I didn't pay much for my copy of Abacab on CD.

[@SpinninProg]

@@kevinputry5655 I only paid a pound for mind and I felt robbed. 😂😂🤣

[@Wayner71]

I'm a bit too pro-prog period to give an unbiased opinion on this, as I gave up on them very early (after 'A Trick of the Tail'). But to be fair to them, I think they went off the rails after 'Duke'. I missed Gabriel too much to really give the later albums an objective listen back then. Cheers.

[@PJprog]

Hey you guys 👋 Before I watch the video , I'll just say I can't get on with S/T Shapes album. At the time was thinking.. More Marillion please !! 🙏😍

[@SpinninProg]

You're right too Peter, we're in the same boat

[@almondroca]

Can't argue with your assessments but, even though I should know better, I'll always have a soft spot for the post-Hackett catalogue (well, maybe up to Invisible Touch). A few pop/prog delights can be found here & there in those LPs.

[@SpinninProg]

We all hear things differently. Tara checked out with An Then There Were Three, I checked out with ABACAB and for you it was Invisible Touch. The point is, we all crossed a threshold at some point. When they became bad is subjective. What's not is that they did when compared to their past catalogue. Thanks for the comment. 👍

[@almondroca]

I'm just grateful I got to see them live while their setlist had plenty of older tunes & Phil still had hair! (ATTW3 US tour, July '78)

[@davemurphy3275]

....... Like the switch from ELP to the Simpsons haha.

[@scottburns2600]

Yep. And they laughed all the way to the bank, because they were a better band in the 80s

[@newdawnofprog]

Cool episode, I agree with Tara 100%.

[@SpinninProg]

I think Tara got the winning score with comments agreeing with her. Damn!!!! She'll be impossible.... 😂😂😂👍

[@user-vy7fp8np1l]

I know this is not the appropriate place for this but (sigh) I'm going to do this anyway. Suggestions for future videos. 1 A review (or ranking) of Manfred Mann's Earth Band. 2 A review (or ranking) of The Sensational Alex Harvey Band. 3 A review (or ranking) of The Family...one of the few progressive rock groups to issue 7" singles as serious items intended to compliment their albums. PS I am definitely not a fan of most of the SAHB material I've heard but there are a few gems (Anthem - the 7" single version - Engine Room Boogie, St Anthony, Midnight Moses plus a couple of others). Despite them not being one of my favourites, I don't think they receive the credit due to them. The same goes for MMEB and The Family (Roger Chapman's outfit).

[@SpinninProg]

Manfred Mann and Alex Harvey are already on our lists but we will add Family to it! Thanks for the suggestion 😁

[@comeonuirons]

Duke in the 80's - pop/rock music had moved in a different direction eg Blondie etc - and maybe Genesis jumped on the 80's band bandwagon?Phil Collins for me with his solo career was a pop career for me.Mike Rutherford too.

[@PatKennedydon]

I could never get into them even though I have a few albums from the 70s, I love prog but didn't get them.

[@samanthag2740]

I love 80s pop so I like most of their 80s output (not a huge Shapes fan). I think Genesis completely lost it at We Can’t Dance. 90s adult contemporary has a nostalgic spot in my heart but most of that album is bloated trash. For instance, compare Tony’s lyrics from Time Table and Man Mad Moon to something like Living Forever. As a lot of people say Tony was the heart & engine of Genesis and I think this is another example of that. Fading Lights is nice because it’s a touching end to that era but there’s nothing even close to even Domino or Dodo on WCD. It’s a mailed in effort. Switching to a more serious topic, I’m an unabashed Abacab fan who sat through this whole video. As a middle aged American, it’s my duty to file for compensation for the emotional distress and pain suffered from listening to Dermot’s diatribe. 🤣 I’ll have to discuss my options at my Friday Dinner party between talk of weight loss shots and interest rates. 🤣🤣🤣 (just kidding… about the dinner party stuff, that is, not about loving Abacab. I truly listen to that thing front to back. please don’t block me.)

[@SpinninProg]

Love it.... It's okay to love ABACAB. As we said at the start of the video, we were being subjective and honest. I'd only heard the title track and expected an album that sounded like that. I never recovered from the shock .. that's what happened to me with it. 😁😂😂😂

[@minsterhill]

Closest was Calling all stations other than that never ever bad!!!

[@SpinninProg]

😂😂😂

[@minsterhill]

@@SpinninProg 👅

[@SpinninProg]

@@minsterhill 😂🤣😂

[@minsterhill]

@@SpinninProg 🌕

[@SpinninProg]

@@minsterhill 😂🤣😂

[@vvmmuu]

I think my first genesis album was live at leicester and then lamb. Then got the rest and played them to death on the headphones with the lights out. Loved then there were 3, but when I got duke was dumbfounded, I don't think I played the second side till a few years ago. Never listened to anything passed duke unless it was on the radio. Then live concerts on DVD were the thing, you could buy a disc for $20 or go to the concert for $150...no brainer for me especially with all the concerts that were synced. The final straw was Tool in Melbourne, I thought it was a good concert but felt ripped off the next day when I read that they mimed a song near the end as they were having "trouble" technically. I was buying live DVD's and Genesis "The way we walk" was $5 so I bought it, thought it was good. "The longs" I liked. I'm glad I had nothing to do with genesis after Duke as I can like some of their later music now. I used to play Lamb then put it back on and play it again and again for hours, I don't know whether I wore out the welcome but I find it a slog now, same as "The Wall" ...I don't think I have played that all the way through in one sitting. Anyway thanks for your vids, love em, and ignore the dickheads they are like a dogs turd smelly today but dust in a few days..trouble is they feed that dog a lot. ALL the best from a 70 yo down under! 😃 😃 😃

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks. There's great insights in what you said. I have loads of DVD concerts too from that era. I recently purged a load of them. The later Genesis always felt corporate to me. That's probably why I didn't go to see them. It would have felt like handing my money over to some faceless business entity with Phil Collins dancing like a monkey on a string and not much else. Unlike my daughter,😂 I do have some time for and then there were three. I like Duke too. It was ABACAB when I checked out. Thanks for the support and, as I said, your insights all help to keep this in an historical context. 👍

[@rodfrancis9160]

Love the humour of the Irish...😆

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks. It was hard to keep laughing while addressing this subject. 😂😂😂👍

[@richard127gm]

I've said it before but it bares repeating. WHY did Gabriel and Hackett never record music together?

[@SpinninProg]

Great point.... It would be fantastic. Has it ever come up in interviews? 👍

[@richard127gm]

@@SpinninProg Not that I know of. It's a crying shame. Still, not too late yet. One can only hope. God bless you both. Can't wait until you're up to a million viewers.

[@simonwithers4941]

The last Genesis LP I purchased was Duke which (in the main) I liked, thereafter and having heard some of the singles and friends playing the subsequent LPs I lost interest in the studio recordings. Although I saw Genesis three times after the Duke tour...the final time (around I can't dance) I realise my interest in this band had ceased.

[@SpinninProg]

Good comment. Duke seems to have been the last proper statement made by the band. 👍

[@gkirms]

Without the remaining three members of Phil, Mike & Tony and going the way that they did musically they wouldn't have opened the band up to a entire new audience of listeners. If they had stayed the course of the Peter Gabriel era or even 'And Then There Were Three' they would never have achieved the success that they did. Genesis did the same kind of thing that Yes did when Yes brought in Trevor Rabin and released 90125. This made a lot of hard core fans extremely upset but I think it brought in many more listeners to the band then if they had stayed the course. Like it or not Phil, Mike & Tony made the final decision of where they wanted the band to go. I knew they were going to change just because of the last track on 'And Then There Were Three'. And that they did.

[@SpinninProg]

No one is disputing that. The point is that what they did was less creative than what had proceeded it. That did alienate a lot of their previous audience... You're right. It didn't open what they had done to a new audience. They sold watered down stuff to a less discerning market. 💰 I don't respect them for that.

[@gkirms]

@@SpinninProg Typically record labels are looking for hits which, of course, makes them money. But with the band changing tactical direction they sure cleaned house and sold out Arenas on tour whether fans liked it or not or respected them for it or not. One of my favorite tunes from them is still 'Driving the Last Spike' from 'We Can't Dance', a less than pleasing album from the critics. But, to this day one of my favorite albums from them is still 'And Then There Were Three'. We could go on and on only to agree to disagree because music is so subjective to the listener.

[@PJprog]

I somehow group Genesis from the...and then there were three... period onward with the likes of Supertramp and Gentle Giant from that same period. It seemed no prog band could just carry on in the same vein as what they'd been writing and recording previously. Even YES after the genius Going for the one couldn't maintain the level. BUT so soon got back on track with Drama. Line- up changes is maybe the key ( King Crimson eventually with different personnel regained their mojo ). But Genesis after losing Hackett... how quickly did they go to the dogs. They ( surprisingly ) survived Gabriel's departure with flying colours , MAYBE they needed new blood after Hackett ?? 🙏😍

[@SpinninProg]

That's a really good argument. I think there was a model for 80s prog with Drama and Nude by Camel. But Genesis completely lost the plot and helped to slag off the genre and denigrate other contemporaries. I do think Hackett should have been replaced. He left a musical void that was never filled... How do you replace him though? 🤔👍😁

[@PJprog]

And Hackett not really being known to the ' ordinary ' man or woman on the street as far as legendary guitarists go is beyond criminal. If our beloved Marillion's history was different Steve Rothery would have been just the ticket. Got the same DNA to my ears as Hackett. Hey ho , but the more you think about it Genesis in the 80's were a completey different beast that were shockingly BAD... and a completey different audience loved them. When I talk to people about Genesis and they say that they like them...I think , now then , which one is this going to be !!! 😂🙏😍

[@scottmcrae3355]

ABACAB is fantastic!

[@SpinninProg]

😂😂😂😂

[@brianoakley980]

What about Songs that make a grown man well up a bit.. You know..The oh no I've got a bit of sand in my eye..moments? Epitaph. Drive Home(Wilson), Cest la Vie ELP, The Lamia, For Absent Friends, Turn the Page Segar, when a blind man Cries...that kind of thing..of course it doesn't effect us proper Northern Boys...ahem..

[@SpinninProg]

No we're made of sterner stuff. 😂😂😂👍

[@willhemmings]

I never thought Genesis suddenly crossed the line. They slipped very gradually from Trick through Wind and Wuthering, with the loss of Gabriel's storytelling, more emphatically with And Then There Were Three minus Hackett's inspirational guitar, a tad more so with Duke with the introduction of drum machines, then increasingly through every album since. There were always weak tracks on earlier albums, dare I say, I Know What I like is repetitive, and there were strong tracks on later albums, Deep in the Motherlode, Duke's Travels / Duke's End, Keep it Dark, The Brazilian stand out. But I think the last classic Genesis song was Dance on a Volcano

[@SpinninProg]

A great insight. Yes. There was a gradual reduction. Agree totally... All the earlier stuff wasn't perfect and the later albums can contain little nuggets. It just seems that the intent and purpose slipped away and it just became more corporate and greedy. 👍

[@willhemmings]

@@SpinninProg Sadly yes

[@wallofrock6725]

@@willhemmingsAnd Then There Were Three has more lead guitar on it than Wind And Wuthering. Banks was not a team player. Mike and Phil just put up with him. To Tony, it was all about him. Hackett did the right thing.

[@jessem470]

Ok against popular opinion i will say they never got bad How many bands that had gone through their journey can stand up to their earlier incarnations Stacked up to their contemporaries even later albums are no bad

[@BrockwaysVinylBytes]

Agree with ya! It’s not bad stuff, just different

[@SpinninProg]

You're very forgiving and obviously a lot kinder than I am.😁 The video wasn't a comparison against others. As we said, this is one in a series we may explore, looking at when a lot of these bands turned a corner and became something less ambitious than they had been.

[@SpinninProg]

@@BrockwaysVinylBytes Jesus Cody.....

[@jessem470]

There might be 3 bands that never waned in ability or ambition Beatles Oops i guess its just 1

[@BrockwaysVinylBytes]

@@SpinninProg what? The comments here are interesting.

[@fredjohnson9856]

abuse aimed at us - oh wait, you said DON'T type that hehe. My younger brother was into Genesis, so I was exposed through him. A Trick of the Tail is a great album. The best thing to do with Abacab is see how far you can fly it across the yard. From Abacab on their albums feel much more commercial. There are some good songs in there, but no album where I want to sit and listen to the whole thing like A Trick of the Tail.

[@SpinninProg]

Great. Yes. A Trick of The Tail is beautiful and very far away from producing "product". 👍

[@danaaronmusic]

I have been a big fan of Duke since it came out. That's where Genesis ends for me, except that I love the title track of ABACAB, which would have fit perfectly on Duke. But not everything they did in the seventies was great--ask me to expound if you dare. Anyway, I'm much more forgiving of a band like Yes, which went bad for a while but then went back to making great music.

[@SpinninProg]

Good points. Agreed on Yes. Title track on ABACAB is where the album begins and ends. Not everything in the '70s was great. However it's more of find the bad track than find the good one like with their '80s output. No need to expound. 😂😂😂

[@merikblackmore]

As a fan of jangly 60's pop I think they lost it with Traspass.

[@BrockwaysVinylBytes]

Intriguing watch! Always interesting to hear from you guys. I don’t think Genesis were ever crap. While not every album is 10/10, there’s something there with all the albums and era’s, for everyone to appreciate. I think there’s great musicianship and great writing in both decades of the band personally, there’s things I like throughout their entire career. Just my $0.02. There’s still points made here that I could agree on or at the very least see from your guys’ POV for sure, even as they are my favourite band.

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks Cody 👍

[@BrockwaysVinylBytes]

@@SpinninProg you know I dig you guys! 😃👍🏽

[@SpinninProg]

@@BrockwaysVinylBytes Thanks for digging us Cody. Big loves going to you.... But.... The level of musicianship? Complexity of composition? You have to admit there was a point where this changed completely for the worse... You see, we just love prog. Therefore earlier prog albums = Good. Later corporate soft pop rock albums = bad. I would say an argument could be made that they became very good at being bad. 😂😂😂👍

[@stuartwaby3081]

They ceased to be Genesis when they couldn't replace Steve Hackett, the facts speak for themselves!

[@SpinninProg]

Couldn't agree more. 👍

[@jean-lucpernel2202]

Hi for me the last good album ? The winner IS : wind and wuthering with his beautiful cover ! After ? What's happen ? Nothing !!!!

[@SpinninProg]

I think you have nailed it alright. It definitely went downhill rapidly after that album. 👍

[@PaulPhilp-pe5oe]

When they didn't record this album - kzbin.info/www/bejne/sIasoIyNiZ2Yfac

[@SpinninProg]

Great documentary and a great album. What a loss he was to them. 👍

[@PaulPhilp-pe5oe]

@@SpinninProg but a great gain for us. Steve has become the MVP of classic prog over the decades.

[@SpinninProg]

@@PaulPhilp-pe5oe Couldn't agree more. We saw him last year on the Foxtrot at 50 tour. He was fantastic. 👍

[@shaynewest8757]

They should have changed the name of the band to Phil Collins because I couldn't tell the difference in the 80s from the band or his solo career.

[@SpinninProg]

Yes. They were nearly one in the same. A lot of '80s marketing involved too. 👍

[@alanduncan1980]

I suppose they were just moving with the times, and trying to make as much money as they could. It's a shame, really. They wrote a few hits, to be fair to them, and that in itself is not an easy thing to do as a musician. They probably should have changed their name, because their later stuff is an entirely different thing.

[@neurophile]

I think that, on "Duke", Genesis was no more Genesis.

[@SpinninProg]

There is a point when it stops alright. Thanks for joining the discussion. 👍

[@terrywalker8446]

Hi Spinnin' Proggers👋🏻 That's a tough question. I'll play devil's advocate and suggest that although Genesis began to dumb down their music in the late 70s they actually produced SOME of the better singles of the time. Back then, radios at work would invariably blast out Radio One. There was little else to listen to. To my young ears, songs such as Turn It On Again, Mama, and Land Of Confusion stood out from the dross of the time (every miserable Phil Collins solo release, Agadoo, Wake Me Up Before You Go Go, I Just Called To Say I Love You, Lady In Red, etc🤮). How did I make it through that musical wilderness without slashing my wrists?🤭However, although I bought those Genesis albums back in the day have I listened to any of them more than a couple of times in the last 40+ years? Absolutely not. They're full of bland background music. I agree that their dive into musical mediocrity began with And Then There Were Three but reached new depths with Abacab, so I can't disagree with either of you. However, Illegal Alien from 1983s self titled album has got to be rock bottom. I hate it even more than Invisible Touch. How could the same three guys who helped to create albums such as The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, and Nursery Cryme create such nonsense? There's a conspiracy theory that Paul McCartney died in 1966 and was replaced by the record company with a lookalike. Surely the same guy who helped pen the early Beatles songs couldn't possibly be responsible for Mull Of Kintyre, No More Lonely Nights, and The Frog Chorus? Perhaps Steve Hackett, frustrated at the lack of musical input he was being allowed in Genesis back in 1977, cracked up and bumped-off Collins, Banks, and Rutherford, and their record company replaced them with lookalikes? I'm not saying that's what happened, merely hypothesising, but it may explain the sudden change in Genesis' music😉

[@SpinninProg]

Terry.... I actually fell about laughing reading your comment. It's brilliant. The thought of Steve Hackett concealing the bodies as he went about his murdering business. 😂🤣😂 You're right, as usual. There were little nuggets from the band, such as Mama and Turn It On Again. Then there were awful things that belonged more on a Phil Collins solo album... Tonight Tonight Tonight... Then there was Illegal Alien... I can still remember the first time I heard it and saw the video. It's etched on my memory like a great traumatic event. It was really one of those moments when you have to ask, "who thought releasing that and making that video was a good idea?" It was horrendous. Thanks Terry. You really brightened my Sunday morning. 😁👍

[@terrywalker8446]

@@SpinninProg Glad I was able to raise a smile Dermot. This video actually got me thinking about when several other bands lost their mojo. Rush was the first that came to mind, closely followed by Yes, and Jethro Tull. Perhaps you'll discuss those bands in future videos so I'll keep my powder dry for now. However, if you dare to drag Grace Under Pressure into that conversation I may have to send Steve (The Hatchet) Hackett round to have 'a word' with you 😉

[@SpinninProg]

@@terrywalker8446 Someone suggested Chicago. Can you imagine that? I said I couldn't do it because I haven't got the one with "If you leave me now" or was it called "please don't go" on it... Could you imagine that? I'd gladly give myself over to Hatchett Hackett. The only reference to Grace Under Pressure would be that I turned the cover over when it came out, saw the haircuts and left it on the shelf. It's funny that I could handle the kimonos 😂. Yes. We will drop back to this topic again with other bands. I hope the audience will be able to handle it. 😂😂😂

[@scottrap]

I stopped listening pretty much after Trick of the Tail other than a few select songs here and there. Initially I liked the instrumental, Duke’s End until someone pointed out that it sounded like music for the NBA finals on CBS. By the way, great fart at the beginning of the video.🤣

[@SpinninProg]

Thanks. It was an AI one. 😂 Trick of the Tail was the last of the real classics. I like Wind and Wuthering, but it does have some flagging moments. Then it goes downhill at a rate of knots. I must look up the NBA finals music... Good shout. 👍

[@scottrap]

@@SpinninProg here’s a link of what I had in mind. It’s this type of music which sounds like it was written for big budget network television. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4CoqJ6blpZ9faMsi=WEoab3W_49ab5tMK

[@eilidh771]

Banks increasingly pushed his own compositions and demanded greater "bandwidth" in the mix with a wash of synths drowning out any subtleties.

[@FuturePast2019]

But then they sold albums.. millions.

[@georgemathie8123]

I love genesis and even in their weakest albums there are some gems for me abacab has dodo/lurker, self titled has home by the sea/second home by the sea and invisible touch has domino so my take on it is after Steve Hackett left in 1977 and phil collins and all 3 members doing their solo projects the group unity suffered after Duke and also if you've heard the solo tony Banks and mike Rutherford solo works in 1982/83 those two cant sing

[@SpinninProg]

Great insight. I never really considered the pernicious effect their solo careers would have had on those albums. Good one. 👍

[@georgemathie8123]

@@SpinninProg now Mike Rutherford's 1980 effort smallcreeps day and Tony Banks 1979 album a curious feeling are fantastic albums it's Mike's 1982 acting very strange and Tony's 1983 the fugitive that are clunkers however in the 80s Tony Banks did an amazing film score and soundtrack for the 1986 Kevin Bacon movie Quicksilver featuring shortcut to somewhere with fish from marillion and speaking of soundtracks Phil Collins, Mike Rutherford and Peter Gabriel all contributed to the 1984 against all odds soundtrack as well

[@SpinninProg]

@@georgemathie8123 I have both those Mike Rutherford albums. Love Small Creeps Day. It's like a template for where Genesis should have gone. Acting is so bad.... I must dig deeper into the sound track stuff. I've only heard bits here and there. 👍

[@patrickmurphy1803]

I didn't like ATTWT besides the classic single follow you follow me. But I loved duke thought it was top class album. I loved the single abacab ì couldn't get into the album. Mama another great single but too much of those romantic ballads around that time and after

[@SpinninProg]

Totally agree. Those tracks you mentioned were all great. But the album experience was just gone. 👍

[@chazblitz]

Everything changed with And Then There Were Three. The slide down into pop territory began right here. In fairness, I think Down And Out isn't bad and has Phil putting on a freakin clinic on drums. The Lady Lies also is not bad and has some beautiful Tony Banks piano on it. Steve Hackett left at a perfect time, and the quality of his body of solo work shines a lot freakin brighter than anything Genesis did without him.

[@SpinninProg]

Yes. There was just little nuggets of what they had been. Hackett took the soul of the band with him. 👍

[@careyatchison1348]

What works against the 'and then there were Three' album is how poorly recorded it was. A later quality repress sounds much better and the songs can be better appreciated (though Hackett's guitar is much missed). I consider it their last consistently good record.

[@SpinninProg]

I always thought there's a good album in there somewhere. Agreed... The muddy sludgy sound just makes it a difficult listen. 👍

[@lordprotector3367]

Abacab. End of story, total suckfest. Burning Rope on And Then There Were Three was great. I live in Surrey, by the way. :)

[@SpinninProg]

Hi neighbour. I lived in Kingston for 14 years. A beautiful town. I popped back to visit last year. It's still looking great. I do have a soft spot for ATTWT. I think it's a bit flawed, but comes from the right place. ABACAB was truly the end of the road. 👍

[@lordprotector3367]

@@SpinninProg Totally agree. I'm in Woking, but often go to Kingston and Surbiton, as I have friends there (both since 1965 technically in London ;) ).

[@SpinninProg]

@@lordprotector3367 I just Googled The Farm Studio. It's just near Godalming. I used to ride a motorcycle I had around that area at the weekend. I probably drove past it as those awful crimes against humanity were being created within. 😂🤣😂

[@vmacart]

and then they was three was disappointing in 1978, 1988, 1998, 2008, 2018, and still is equally disappointing today. lady lies is the only thing i can listen to. and abacab. when i heard abacab on the radio in 81 i thought great! but the rest of the album was disappointing then on vinyl, through decades on cd, and still is today. dodo/lurker and sarah jane or listenable. i still love the song abacab. too bad they ran out of ideas on that song. there's no comparing peter gabriel/steve hackett era genesis with the trio genesis. 5 brains are superior to 3. i think tony, mike, and phil had ideas of being a power trio. like the second half of cinema show. i think the school boy's egos were expanding!

[@SpinninProg]

Great insight. I agree. The title track on ABACAB lulled me into a false sense of security. Then the rest of the album happened... 😱

[@pau8465]

"And then there were three" was one of my favorite Genesis albums. It seems that it gets a bad rap post Hackett, I feel undeservingly so....At least there was a Western theme to follow. "Follow you Follow me" definitely did not fit with the rest of the songs on the album...

[@scottburns2600]

Genesis would have been a stale prog rock has-been if it weren't for changing with the times. And if you listen closely, not only did they adapted with radio friendly music, they blended in long and melodic music in their 80s albums as well. So sick of people who have no concept of the history of that band, making stupid remarks about their music

[@SpinninProg]

That's a very ignorant remark to make Scott. Why don't you go off and have a think about your comment? Naughty boy

[@scottburns2600]

@@SpinninProg numbers don't lie. Even Peter Gabriel himself said the band was way more successful after he left. I don’t dispute the quality of music during this earlier period; but to crap on their most successful time period is just ignorant. 2 of the founding members helped develop the transition period in Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford; so these views is a disrespect to them as well

[@SpinninProg]

@@scottburns2600 How did we 'crap' on it? After saying Duke is a masterpiece which is included in that period. You obviously didn't take in exactly what we were saying in the video and immediately jumped on the defensive. That's not how you get people to listen to your point of view Scott. We do not have time for people looking for a silly argument 👍

[@RonanMcCormick]

Your video is the complete opposite of Patrick Bateman's speech in American Psycho 😄. It seems wierd now, and embarassing, to think that when I was 12 everyone in my school (me included) had a copy of their then current album, We Can't Dance. Does appealing to 12 year olds also say something about what they became?

[@SpinninProg]

In all truth there was a lot of marketing involved with pushing the band at that time. When we're younger, we're more vulnerable to these things. I think Patrick Bateman's speech is to show how shallow and incomplete he is as a human being... He's trying to intellectualise something that had turned it's back on that world... And don't start me off on Hughey Lewis. 😂😂😂

[@RonanMcCormick]

@@SpinninProg True. Within a year we were all into Guns 'n' Roses. The fickleness of youth! Agreed re Bateman. His shallowness is a running theme of the book/film. I don't even know how Hip To Be Square even ends... Anyway, me and my pal (who also loves your videos) are going to listen to early Genesis. I'm sure we'll love it!

[@waldoschnetler7484]

At least on this video you did not recieve no reply at all! Come on guys, give Phil a break! How can you have prog in the 80's? It was the decade of pop music wasn't it?

[@SpinninProg]

👍

[@lemming9984]

ATTWT was the first step on the slippery slope of Pop mediocrity (IMHO!).

[@SpinninProg]

That seems to be the consensus. I think Tara has won this one in the court of public opinion.... Or maybe you're just all right. 👍

[@51monalisa]

maybe maybe maybe it was another phil collins .the real one was taken by aliens. i never heard somebody comparing music with a smell😂😂😂

[@SpinninProg]

Or maybe Phil unmasked himself to reveal the corporate dancing monkey he'd always been... He was the villain all along... Who would have thought it???? As for the smell.... I'm just trying to describe the effect the music had on me.... It was bad, I'm afraid. 😂😂😂👍

[@51monalisa]

@@SpinninProg still funny though what also funny is that like you i have still abacab and invisible touch 🤣

[@SpinninProg]

@@51monalisa I think a flaming bin is called for and a ritual cleansing of our collections involving fire and chanting. 😂👍

[@51monalisa]

@@SpinninProg and dance the i can t dance dance while chanting

[@jhillst]

The whole "Genesis went pop because Steve Hackett left" claim needs to die. Genesis fans repeat it so much that it's been taken as gospel truth. Sorry, but it's bullshit. First of all, Steve was never a prominent writer in Genesis; most of the music (even during the Gabriel/Hackett years) was written by Tony and Mike, and Tony in particular was responsible for most of the big epics Genesis was celebrated for, such as Firth of Fifth, In The Cage, One For The Vine, and a good chunk of Supper's Ready. Secondly, nearly all prog bands were streamlining their sound toward the end of the '70s, not just Genesis. Look at some of the other prog albums released in 1978 -- Tormato, Love Beach, A Song For All Seasons, Octave, etc. -- all comprised of mostly short, accessible songs with maybe one or two lengthier tracks. The change in direction was primarily due to the change in the musical landscape at the time; punk was starting to take a hold, and prog bands were feeling pressured to rein in some of their excesses or be deemed irrelevant. ATTW3 is an uneven album for sure, but it has at least 4-5 songs that show that the band hadn't lost what made them special. Duke and Abacab show a more definite change in musical direction, but the creativity and passion is still there. For me, Genesis doesn't really start to lose their way until the self-titled album -- not because it's a "pop" album, but because the ideas are more watered down and underdeveloped, and this trend would sadly continue through the rest of the band's career, with a few exceptions along the way. I agree that when Steve Hackett left, Genesis lost something in terms of the unique guitar textures he brought to the music, but the change in musical direction would have likely occurred even if Steve had stayed around.

[@SpinninProg]

Didn't really make an argument that it was Steve's departure that caused the shift. So, the self-titled album was your tipping point.

[@jhillst]

@@SpinninProg True. My response was more of a reaction to a lot of the comments on here than it was to your video.

[@SpinninProg]

@@jhillst No problem. It was quite a well argued and heartfelt comment. You're obviously very passionate about it. I just think the only Genesis experience people now have is the Hackett one. He's now the keeper of the flame to some people and they project that back into history.

[@mattharwood4413]

Bwahahahahaha!Just the title!!! And the thumbnail!! Personally, Abacab was a desperate sign for help!! Way too grossly pop! But really, there was a slide after Peter Gabriel left.

[@SpinninProg]

Agreed. 👍