George R.R. Martin Can’t Imagine Where Hobbit Children Come From

GRRM is at it again, or rather Twitter is at it again reviving old quotes by the Song of Ice and Fire author, with a really bonkers line about Tolkien and sex.
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[@gideonjones5712]

"You can't really imagine hobbits having sex" Yeah well I can't imagine my parents doing it either, yet I exist

[@kohakuaiko]

Yeah, my brain won't let me get any closer than EEEWWWWWWWW!!!

[@Сайтамен]

Warwick Davis has a wife and kid, so...

[@dakinayantv3245]

👍

[@kohakuaiko]

@@Сайтамен that is far less gross than the other one

[@zztopz7090]

Martin is the type that, because sex between his parents exists, therefore he must have audience to it.

[@nickmanzo8459]

The way I put this was that Hobbits are kinda like your wholesome grandparents. The fact that they had sex is self evident, that doesn’t mean we want to hear about it.

[@Vandervecken]

Yeah I mean Lobelia DID have Otho...Dear Manwe I'm sorry I had that thought.

[@TrangDB9]

They never show charakters going to take a dump. There's no need for that either.

[@LoneWolf-xe6ye]

​@@TrangDB9 George RR Martin would disagree look at Daenerys

[@Prodigi50]

@@LoneWolf-xe6ye There’s a scene with Dany taking a dump?

[@concept5631]

@@Prodigi50 There's a scene that describes her dysentry in explicit detail.

[@Evoker23-lx8mb]

Well you see Mr Martin, when a man Hobbit and a woman Hobbit love each other very much…

[@Relics_of_Arda]

😂

[@micheleandhenrycasavant386]

Martin is too young for "the talk." Seriously this isn't the first time Martin has voiced criticism for Tolkien's world. We think it's because he writes of sentient beings operate more on integrity than greed and this proves Martin's philosophy about power in some respects wrong.

[@Happyheretic2308]

It’s the same as these people (mainly Americans) who ‘make’ chicken (dishes). No, you don’t …

[@andyghkfilm2287]

Something something hobbit hole?

[@genghisgalahad8465]

Hold on right there so I can mute you....

[@Kemot300]

He should ask the Hobbit Samwise Gamgee: dude had 13 children so he definitely knows the "craft".

[@Baldwin-iv445]

He doesn't just know it. He is a master.

[@concept5631]

Respect to Rose Cotton for having the resilience of Tulkas.

[@williamfrank962]

What I find funny is that in game of thrones for the sex that goes on there no one seems to have children in the main cast except for the villains. Like in the main cast in both the books and show (Jon,Sansa,Danny,etc) all the young prime age characters are never thinking about having children in the future. Any people who try to convey the need to have children or try to have them are viewed as villains (Tywin, Cersei) and the good guy who does have a child in the show (Robb) gets his wife killed for it. Again you’d think for how much sex goes on in the show and book have the characters would be knocked up by now.

[@concept5631]

@@williamfrank962 Wonder if that was intentional or Martin did an oopsie

[@elliotyourarobot]

They don't call him Samwise Gamgee for nothing.

[@tominiowa2513]

Did Martin miss the part where Treebeard discusses why there are no more Entlings?

[@purelightapologetics4930]

Speaking of which, have you seen any entwives around?

[@shortgiraffe3792]

Martin was probably hoping for a forest hentai scene with Treebeard and Gandalf.

[@tominiowa2513]

@@shortgiraffe3792 - That sounds even worse than tentacle hentai.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Why is the man notorious for his inability to finish anything in a satisfying way talking about sex?

[@paulchapman8023]

I think the answer might be in the question.

[@sondradenny6909]

oh my god! Right?!?

[@toad_of_the_sky]

This comment is perfect in every way. lol!

[@steveprosser2203]

😂😂😂

[@kate_cooper]

Ouch!

[@Uulfinn]

I like the idea that george can't fathom sex existing unless it's explicitly stated and shown in graphic detail to the reader. Like a dog that doesn't have object permanence, it's just gone if he can't see it.

[@dr.k1012]

Also the fact that he can't imagine average looking normal people replacement Hobbits having sex means for him maybe it's either reserved only for Instagram model physiques or extremely disturbing scenarios like incest etc..

[@bakters]

" *unless it's explicitly stated* " It's not that it's not stated explicitly enough. It's that in Tolkien's world sex is virtually nonexistent. For comparison, I just re-read Ivanhoe. Sex and desire do exist in this book and absolutely nothing ever is explicitly stated. In contrast, Tolkien's world is weird, because it totally lacks sex and desire, just like it lacks any religion. It's the artist choice, a very peculiar one. GRR is not being weird when he describes an inbred dynasty. Stuff like that was never the norm, but it did happen. That's how he puts it too.

[@tlriven]

There is another fundamental reason Tolkien doesn't need to go into graphic detail about sex; the nature of his works is that they are supposed to be "real" documents or found texts that were either written as embellished first hand accounts or actual historical recordings.

[@TrangDB9]

Yup, he found those in the private department in the library of the Oxford University.

[@concept5631]

​@@TrangDB9 I thought someone gave him a copy of the Book of Westron and he translated it or something.

[@TrangDB9]

@@concept5631 possible, I don't know. Another fascinating book is the Oera Linda Chronik. You can find it on the internet.

[@TrangDB9]

@@concept5631 check out the ura Linda book. You can find it online.

[@jonathancrosby1583]

Thats the in book explanation or the text ​@concept5631

[@Vandervecken]

Couldn't agree more. Do we also need a scene of Boromir polishing his armor? Galadriel making lembas? Denethor doing his daily judicial decisions? Etc etc

[@joedredd1168]

It's like how Martin wondered what Aragorn's tax policy was. WHO CARES?! I'm not here for that.

[@havtheroc]

The difference between a timeless classicism-modernism hero's tale, and literally perverted post-modern fantasy deconstruction.

[@waltonsmith7210]

Its ok for it to be perverted.

[@adamschmitt9480]

He tried to turn the fantasy genre "on its head", and really surprised his readers by writing only half of an epic fantasy and stopping entirely once HBO threw obscene amounts of cash at him. He then leveraged the success of his first 4 books in the series to generate interest in his online presence displaying his interesting hats collection on Twitter and his blog, all the while promising his fans a continuation and conclusion to the story that everyone now knows is not very likely to materialize. That whacky guy! Funny hats.

[@shortgiraffe3792]

​@@adamschmitt9480 I wouldn't exactly call it an epic fantasy. Martin wrote a story on a basic premise that you find in many roleplay forums, different houses/individuals based on different traits or elements (fire, ice, water, gold, blah blah) all descended from one vague figure "Garth Greenhand" (a male, h*rny version of mother earth). His original script which someone found from 20 years ago was centered around an inc*st love triangle between Arya, Jon, and Tyrion. His books rip off historical storylines/personalities directly (ex. Empress Matilda and King Stephen's conflict, Cleopatra, War of the Roses, Henry VIII, The Black Dinner and Massacre of Glencoe, etc etc), he has also ripped off characters and storylines from other authors, because he has trouble coming up with original storylines and has an unhealthy obsession with inc*st, SA, and underage relationships. His writing is nowhere close to JRR Tolkien's legendarium. Martin's books are genuinely hard to read (for me at least) due to the sheer amount of smut in them, they read like p*rn novels and that is no exaggeration. The sheer amount of graphic s*xual detail in the writing, especially in scenes involving minors, is sickening. Just read the scene with Dany in the tower, where Martin copiously describes Drogo's "fluids" if you don't believe me. HBO had to cut it all out to make a coherent, viewable story. No, most ~13yr olds did not regularly get fully married and consummate, even back then, so that excuse flies out the window. Lazy, overs*xed, overhyped writing. But then again, s*x sells. Even Martin's online presence is questionable, I remember reading a blog post he wrote about how Melisandre's audition, in his words "turned him on." Even his adopted pen name "GRR" Martin is a rip-off of JRR Tolkien. Maybe another writer should take on the last novel(s) in the ASOIF series, If the wet fart that was season 8 of GOT is any indication, Martin might not be up to the task.

[@NicoleStevensHays11x]

Awe the fragiles lol. Watch HOTD to see what happens when Targs marry outside the family & let other families espouse their dragon riding genes through the spawn lol. In dragon v dragon civil wars, everything burns GOT: Cersei & Jamie have issues

[@charlesshirk8699]

Martin "can't imagine Hobbits having sex"......personally I can't, and don't want to, imagine Martin having sex.

[@Darilon12]

If that's really what he wants to see... I bet something will turn up if he googles it with the right words added.

[@Сайтамен]

Martin, you wrote Game of Thrones with Tyrion getting laid...here's your answer.

[@michaelwills1926]

Imagine if his hard drive could talk 🥴

[@krta1773]

Martin's idea of world building is to squeeze in as many crude low brow themes and describe them in vivid detail, along with some tax policy, then pretend thanks to that his world is superior to Tolkien's. Wow, what an interesting deep universe where everybody is an abusive a hole and swears all the time😂 I sure wish we got that in the Hobbit

[@SolDizZo]

That said I'm overjoyed with FromSoft's ability to take something he made and completely destroy it for Elden Ring's nearly unfathomable backdrop

[@seto_kaiba_]

When has he said he was superior to Tolkien? No-he just talks about how he is different.

[@ivanneto5250]

@@seto_kaiba_ He basically implies his world is more complete than Tolkien's because he describes sex.

[@savannahforsyth2942]

Thats not his idea of world building, are you people insane? Honestly all of you deserve what you got with rings of power.

[@generaljimmies3429]

Apparently Hobbits just spring out of holes in the ground.

[@patty4349]

That is actually a recent fanfic trope. Maybe we should blame Martin for that,

[@thanganbabp5570]

well, hobbit holes are where they are made after all. hobbits do have a sense of modesty.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

​@@patty4349You're gonna need to be more specific

[@champestre]

Which is of course ridiculous

[@kerrychristensen7204]

Like daisies!

[@nalublackwater9729]

The way this guy is always taking cheap shots at Tolkien tells you everything you know about how small he really feels before the Professor.

[@seto_kaiba_]

Except he is a massive Tolkien fan. His complaints about Tolkien are not too dissimilar from how obsessive fans of Martin’s work like myself will critique him.

[@NicoleStevensHays11x]

Imagine being dead and having a tribe of ppl defend you lmfao. Ppl don’t ignore enough

[@sarahstardust]

Hobbits find other hobbits attractive. The amount of "love at first sight" type stories in Tolkien's works alone has to show that initial physical attraction is a powerful motivation in Middle Earth. Also, if Martin can't imagine it, there are plenty of fanfic writers out there who could help him lol.

[@Jim-Mc]

He must have forgotten, in the films Rosie Cotton was beautiful.

[@sarahstardust]

@@Jim-Mc and in the books, Gandalf told Barliman (the innkeeper at the Prancing Pony) to keep an eye out for Frodo and described him as being handsome, with bright eyes, rosy cheeks, and a dimpled chin. Barliman was able to recognize Frodo by that description, which means that two male non-hobbits looked at Frodo and thought, "that's one handsome hobbit!"

[@troffle]

> Also, if Martin can't imagine it, there are plenty of fanfic writers out there who could help him lol. NOGODSNO PLEASE NO PLEASE NO

[@KororaPenguin]

@@troffle PLEASE no adaptation of "Celebrían" or of ANYTHING from Library of Moria!

[@troffle]

@@KororaPenguin 1) I did not know what the "Library of Moria" was. At best, I assumed it was something like the area in LOTRO from which you have to recover works and items. Until I just searched for it and read the Google summary. I refuse to click any deeper. 2) I had no idea about anything "Celebrian"-related until I related this thread to my Tumblr-dwelling housemate and she said "you seem to have no idea about the Celebrian thing" then said something about "early days of the Internet" and "orcs" and "it's bad". It took me years to learn to not satisfy my curiosity and probe no deeper once I'd been shown the warning signs. This time, I listened. And I really wish I'd known nothing about any of this ever. I'm awake and suitably medicated now, that it's not that I wish I could go to bed, die there and never get up again. I want the rest of the world to go to bed and die there and get away from me. Yes, I recognise what "Moria" is meant to mean in Sindarin. How fitting. I'm thinking of the way Gimli described Helm's Deep to Legolas, lit by lamps of the kind they used to light Khazad-Dûm and I feel more sick to my stomach; now I see how trash like "The Rings Of Power" or AppleTV's "Foundation" or "current-day Star Wars" got the footholds they did - this is what the greater mass of humanity is like. I usually thank people who give me the gift of education, even if it's not very pleasant information. Someday I might be able to follow through with this, but today is not that day. I would like that site, its originators and maintainers to go up in flames right now. Thank you for giving me still more reason to turn my back on humanity.

[@alphax4785]

The Hobbit government gives hobbits babies so long as they pay their taxes hence why tax policy is so important!

[@alexkats30]

The Great Eagles were too busy to have flown Frodo to Mount Doom, because there are no storks in Middle Earth, George!!!

[@Relics_of_Arda]

But how did Sam and Rosie have hobbit babies? Did they grow them in the garden? What a mystery this is!

[@VoiceoftheRings]

100% shire grown children. They grow off trees. Like Dwarves pop out of holes in the ground! :)

[@jimcameron6803]

He kept back a little bit of Galadriel's dust to apply "down there".

[@rustyshackelford3590]

Cabbage patch kids

[@Relics_of_Arda]

@@VoiceoftheRings 😄

[@michaelfisher7170]

well Sam could grow a mighty fine cabbage patch....

[@DrJay-vd9tf]

George complaining about the lack of sex scenes really makes him sound like a coomer.

[@stigkenobi7525]

He isn't complaining about it. He is doing a lighthearted bit of joking about it. Read it for yourself, and you will seem less dumb.

[@DrJay-vd9tf]

@@stigkenobi7525 👍

[@misterpinkandyellow74]

You come across as a no fap nutter

[@donaldhysa4836]

​@@stigkenobi7525Nah he is a coomer. He writtes sex in hia stories like a coomer would 😊

[@Malygosblues]

@@stigkenobi7525 Someone's pressed for some reason.

[@andersschmich8600]

Tolkien was aiming to create a modern mythology, in the same vein as the Norse Sagas or Beowulf, somewhat removed from the physical realities of life. But he certainly did write about love, like Beren and Luthien. To be honest I’m glad he never wrote a sex scene, it really wouldn’t have fit with the story’s overall tone.

[@KororaPenguin]

And the LotR smut fanfics lay waste to Arda in ways undreamt of by Amazon Studios.

[@LP-tf7cy]

To be fair there are often sex scenes in real life mythologies, but they're usually short because the point is not usually to titilate. Often the longer ones are the weird ones, which need detail because there's something strange we need to know.

[@andersschmich8600]

@@LP-tf7cy True, what Tolkien did is sort of a sanitized version of the actual myths. That is one criticism some have leveled.

[@LP-tf7cy]

@@andersschmich8600 being fair, that's how a lot of germanic legends, which is the style he was imitating most, got conveyed and survived to his time. Comparing his treatment of sex with the one in Wagner's ring cycle shows a lot of similarity.

[@troffle]

@@KororaPenguin For the love of all things decent, please don't give those Amazon subhumans any ideas.

[@darthsnowdon]

Well when two hobbits love each other very much…then the stork arrives bring a baby hobbit or something like that

[@btCharlie_]

The eagles! The eagles are coming!

[@jl453k2]

@@btCharlie_ I bloody well hope not. That would be an awful clean up experience…

[@jonnybgoode7742]

​@@jl453k2 😂 😂 birds already have a habit of targetting my windshield

[@Laurelin70]

​@@btCharlie_Priceless. Absolutely priceless. 😂

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

When a daddy Hobbit and a mommy Hobbit love each other very much, the daddy offers the mommy his finest potato from the garden, which the mommy then cooks into a wonderful stew with mutton and mushrooms. The daddy Hobbit then opens up a fine vintage and they have a nice dinner. They retire to their chambers, and a few hours later the daddy Hobbit goes out and smokes some pipeweed. Nine months later, a baby Hobbit is found in their garden, planting cabbages. This inspired the popular "Cabbage Patch Kids" line of dolls.

[@thehussarsjacobitess85]

On another note, seeing sex overwhelms the viewers with its physicality. Tenderness and other emotions are lost in the embarrassment of witnessing something that makes us feel like perverted voyeurs.

[@shorewall]

100%. As soon as you add sex, say goodbye to subtlety. I wrote a short story online that ended in implied sex, and in the comments there were people solely demanding the sex scene. I felt like they didn't even care about what I had written, so I really re-thought my stance on including sex scenes at all in my writing.

[@troffle]

I think I just read the best justification I will ever need to refuse to read any of Martin's books. I thank you for this education.

[@KororaPenguin]

That's what irks me about _The Ringworld Engineers_ by Larry Niven.

[@aceambling7685]

​@@trofflethere are barely any sex scenes in the books and they arent really used to communicate romance.

[@troffle]

@@aceambling7685 I'm one of those weird people that likes my romance and love as a reason for my sex, additionally weird in that I felt the same way 30-40 years ago as well. So I think I get what you're saying, but the clarification isn't helping my original objections. Um. A search with a phrase like "number of game of thrones books sex scenes" shows up... erm... rather a number of responses. With sentences like "There is way more [...] in the books. Like 10000x more. It's so detailed and descriptive too. For one example, Ramsey makes Theon" AND I'MA JUST STOP THERE. I have now seen the lone phrase "Fat pink mast" for the second time in a forum and before I had no idea what it meant. Now I see it followed by "I'm desperate to know what this means" and "No, you're not, trust us". Now I'm drawing the conclusions that I would like to conclude this drawing. ... "They weren't even remotely plot relevant, neither character is actually a lesbian, GRRM just threw in random bi-curious girl-on-girl sex scenes" WHAT EVEN? And there are so many reasons I'm not going to touch on the reported age questions. Yes, I realise one might say it's not fair I go off second-hand accounts. But of all the things on my reading list, I'm not heavily inclined to add Martin to the pile, and certainly not for the purposes of answering this question.

[@Themiddleborne]

When I tell people my wife is pregnant again, I always add “because we had lots of sex” so they know how it happened

[@yeahnaaa292]

Well, someone did.

[@morningstar577]

"No, your best friend Fitsy helped her conceive it. He helped her conceive it all night long. HEY HEY HEYYY"

[@patty4349]

Several male characters try to force their attention on females who do not want them. They are clearly reviled by the other characters for their behavior and come to bad ends. Usually, this is a result of the fact that they are nasty people, and their creepy sexual behavior is just one facet of a deeply flawed character. This is a recurring theme.

[@KororaPenguin]

I wonder if Maeglin might have been less interested in Idril the person and more interested in securing a spot as heir in case something happened to Turgon.

[@Bevrast]

I believe, although not explicitly said, this was part of Smeagol's expulsion from his community. He is said to "spy" while wearing the ring.

[@SolDizZo]

@@Bevrasttrue, but a small part (😂)

[@Chociewitka]

it is completely clear where hobbit children come form, hobbits a passionate genealogists, one can very easily track them down in their family trees... those are included in the books

[@BogaSlawa]

Dickens, Dostoevsky, Stevenson, etc they all follow a similar style to Tolkien in this regard.

[@JuanRodriguez-im6ul]

And Catullus, Bukowski, the Marquis de Sade, Louis-Ferdinand Céline and Henry Miller didn't.

[@reactiondavant-garde3391]

@@JuanRodriguez-im6ul Marquis de Sade is in his own special box, being a sick f*ck.

[@Yuuzhanvon]

As some one who loves George R.R Martin, his world doesn't come close to Arda

[@BronzetheGolden]

Very much agree. I love Martin's world very much, but I love Arda SO VERY MUCH. Their works are both great but Arda is supreme!

[@eugene8498]

Tolkien would have had big problems with Westeros. - Why do the characters speak English? - Why do they have (almost) English names, such as Eddard, Jon, Catelyn? What are the rules behind those changes? Are they consistent? Is Jon derived from some Johan of Westeros? - What's behind those Valyrian names and phrases? Is there a grammar? What's the etymology? How is Valyrian related to other languages of Westeros? ... Why did HBO have to hire an expert to do the job for Martin. "The latter[Translation] has given me much thought. It seems seldom regarded by other creators of imaginary worlds, however gifted as narrators ... Anyway ‘language’ is the most important, for the story has to be told, and the dialogue conducted in a language; but English cannot have been the language of any people at that time." - JRRT

[@williancanales20]

First of all, Martin is not a linguist, to create a story you don't need to be a linguist. Second thing Valyrian is influenced by French and I don't remember what other language, Valyrian has variations, look at the High Valyrian spoken by Daenerys and the one spoken by the masters of Astaport, the one spoken by the masters is a variant of High Valyrian, a regional variant, giving richness to the language. The common English language spoken in Westeros is native to that region. Other languages are spoken in other parts of the world. It is said that Martin wants to impose his personal vision of what he would do with Tolkien's work, but what you don't realize is that you do the same. I love tolkien but there are different ways of understanding the world and writing about it, I don't necessarily have to be guided by another author. Don't do the same thing that is criticized in this video.

[@Sertex47]

I don't think the point of the comment was to give an argument against George's writing necessarily. It was instead to use the same type of argument that George uses, as a way to highlight the hypocrisy of it. Of course there are probably good answers to these critiques, just as the video highlights the ones against George's.

[@eugene8498]

​@@williancanales20 You missed my point. If anything, I'm displaying we should not impose one's personal vision. You don't have to create entire language families as a writer, you don't have to insert sex, gore and toilet either. Tolkien as a philologist couldn't stand creating a world without a sound linguistic background, poetry etc - but you don't have to be a linguist to do the basics. Whatever Valyrian "variants" there are, they aren't created by Martin, but by David Peterson. High Valyrian was just an empty name until David took over AFAIK..

[@michaelwills1926]

@@williancanales20Tolkien finished his book

[@williancanales20]

​@@michaelwills1926 Technically no, he left the Silmarillion incomplete. If it wasn't for his son we wouldn't have that book.

[@ZorroVulpes]

Imagine if GRRM thought about finishing his damn book half as much as he thought about nitpicking Tolkien

[@troffle]

Mr Martin, here's a tip on lessening the load of your writing: take the "R. R." out of your name.

[@seto_kaiba_]

Most of the quotes of him “nitpicking” Tolkien are very old (before we all started hounding him about the book) and seem to be good faith. He’s a massive Tolkien fan.

[@NicoleStevensHays11x]

Lmao look at this “my author is better” pissing contest. This weird tribalism is so annoying. “My author talks about sex better than yours!!” It’s so embarrassing…all these ppl jumping in to defend strangers at the tiniest hint of a slight. Ppl need to learn to walk away.

[@KarenSDR]

Similarly for graphic descriptions of torture, for example. There's plenty of torture (or "torment") in Tolkien, but he doesn't show it in gruesome detail. He hints at it and lets our imagination fill it in, which can be really powerful. The chilling off-hand line "Stripped, eh? What, teeth, nails, hair and all?" was enough to give me nightmares without actually showing something like that happening. And that line stands out in my memory because it's more graphic detail than he usually goes into. Tolkien was a master of letting our imaginations do the work of creating horror.

[@KororaPenguin]

Like how in a radio episode of _Dragnet_ Jack Webb was able to horrify by simply giving the ages of two murdered girls (seven and eleven), the fact that the corpses were clutching wildflowers, and the fact that a veteran homicide detective had never seen a sight like their corpses and never hoped to again.

[@jordansmith1541]

That comment by Martin is very Freudian...

[@earlofbroadst]

Martin's interest is obviously prurient. He wishes Tolkien had described Arwen in the same *explicit* detail with which he, Martin, described Arianne Martell. The guy is just a dirty old man. He might as well have said: "Why didn't Tolkien write a book with Fabio on the cover?"

[@sdpc9182]

Yeah but it's kinda good that Martin has his writing as an outlet for this. It's just weird that he thinks lacking sex is a flaw

[@yingsnnn808]

Yeah he's a coomer

[@shortgiraffe3792]

Martin's writing is salacious and full of smut and dirt. He blatantly rips off other writers and history itself and his sick obsession with inc*st, SA, and underage relationships is very disturbing.

[@JohanHerrenberg]

Martin is a child of the Sexual Revolution.

[@Darilon12]

I think he's more like a teenager of the sexuel revolution.

[@GrimFaceHunter]

​@@Darilon12 That's even better explanation.

[@tudor737]

Bullshitarian

[@nalublackwater9729]

I think he's still a teenager seeing the Sex Revolution pass by without waving him hello.

[@dakinayantv3245]

Twentieth century thinking.

[@lordinquisitordunn336]

Despite how evil he is, Ar’Pharazon never touches his wife miriel after he forces her to marry her and never cheats. Tolkien made certain things off limits for even his evil characters despite the fact that it would be pragmatic for pharazon to have some sort of heir.

[@year111]

@@lordinquisitordunn336 Or Ar’Pharazon didn’t have one because he thought he would gain immortality with Saurons help.

[@concept5631]

Are we sure Ar-Pharazon didn't inappropriately touch his wife?

[@troffle]

Isn't there a rather dire fate for anybody in Arda who breaks a sacred oath?

[@abcdef27669]

"Professionals have standards!"

[@KororaPenguin]

@@abcdef27669 Like how in Euripides' _Hecuba_ even Agamemnon, a remorseless war criminal, still drew the line at betraying hospitality; no matter how much Polymestor tried to draw his killing the last surviving son of Priam (who had entrusted the kid to Polymestor's care when the war began) as a service to the Greeks, Agamemnon told him [Polymestor] to accept Hecuba's vengeance as his just due.

[@michaelfisher7170]

George seeking a new meaning for Hobbit hole. I'll see myself out.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

No, no, no. That was actually really funny

[@ahimsamovies4484]

I don't understand why he focuses on hobbits in particular. They're very sensual people; they love to eat and overeat. What's so baffling about them having sex? Because they're little people? As if that's ever stopped little people in his stories (or indeed in real life) from having intercourse. Anyway, I feel the same way as you, I like the kinds of fairy stories Tolkien wrote, so with that in mind, do you have any other books or authors that you feel scratch the same itch? I'd be interested in reading more fantasy stories that are closer in style to Tolkien than Martin.

[@joshuadempsey5281]

I didn’t see the chapter in George’s book where the bureaucrats decided what % of the taxes would go to each of the public works, such as roads and new wells. Guess his world is incomplete!

[@hulking_presence]

He doesn't believe someone would actually spend money on anything public.

[@joshuadempsey5281]

@@hulking_presence lol too true

[@missa2855]

Hobbits are just chill country folk... Do country folk not have children?

[@kohakuaiko]

Oh, we have quite a few 😂

[@Idaho-Cowboy]

Isn't the ending of the LOTR about Sam coming home marrying Rosie and having a bunch of kids. Did he miss that part? Tolkien focuses on old fashioned true love stories.

[@rubybaby7320]

Martin created a world without Grace or compassion. Everyone is motivated by their own desires. Words that describe Martin's world? Venal, base, mundane, prurient, lascivious, salacious, small minded and short sighted. I don't think anyone looks to the future or what is best for anyone else except by how they measure it against their own desires. Tolkien is all about the Golden Rule and sacrifice for others. I don't think Martin can fathom such a thing and my prime example is how he just abandoned the story with not one care for his audience. Martin wants a sex soaked world? I don't.

[@gustav1712]

I think that’s super unfair and I wonder if you’ve read asoiaf. I think Martin asks the question what if the King is not returning and what if the average man is closer to Grima than Beregond? And he answers that question by seeing the point in striving to be better and be noble, even if the world isn’t filled with divine magical good.

[@troffle]

@@gustav1712 > I think Martin asks the question what if the King is not returning and what if the average man is closer to Grima than Beregond ... that does seem kind of on par with "Martin created a world without Grace or compassion. Everyone is motivated by their own desires". I do take note of "seeing the point in striving to be better and be noble". However it seems like a lot of Tolkien's characters were already at the post-striving point. Let's also add that needing to see Hobbits Gettin'ItOn kind of takes us right back to "without Grace or compassion. Everyone is motivated by their own desires".

[@Ringerofthelie]

Well it all comes down to Martin being a faithless and secular person and Tolkien being a Catholic who was heavily inspired by other mysterious occult literature, there is no way to compare the two besides the odd similarities in their names. Also it's pretty obvious hobbits have sex look at how much they drink

[@troffle]

@@Ringerofthelie The similarity is not odd, except in that it's claimed Martin adopted the second R "because of Tolkien". Also, he claimed to be influenced by, among other things, Tolkien. So there's more basis for comparison than you're implying.

[@Ringerofthelie]

@@troffle if anything you just proved my point, what a weird way to do so though.

[@MegaPokefan97]

Tolkien glosses over things like sex, toilet breaks, and sleeping because he thinks the reader is smart enough to assume these things happen

[@itsokiie]

the fact that I read the title, and the automated subtitles ( I hope they were automated ) started off with "my goon" was hilarious

[@scoliosis9478]

lmao i saw that too and was dyin

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

lol yeah that was definitely automated 😂

[@wanderingknight7777]

I just rewatched the video intro with subtitles, and that was hilarious! 🤣

[@garydmcgath]

My favorite GRRM work is the TV show _Beauty and the Beast_ from about 3 decades ago. It's about a strong, beautiful love relationship which is never consummated in so much as a kiss. I'm not drawing any conclusions from this, just trying to broaden the perspective.

[@kohakuaiko]

If it's the one I'm remembering, it most definitely was--offscreen. We were given "growing" evidence in the last episode.

[@OlavEngelbrektson]

I don't wonder about Hobbit sex, they seem very interested in life and its affirmation and celebration. I do find the nature of elvish intercourse almost impossible to conceptualize. That said: a large part of the story of the Legendarium in general is the story of people having sex and making children.

[@saysayonara]

Amen and amen. Someone somewhere said that Tolkien is a writer and Martin is a pornographer.

[@MegaKnight2012]

Well, they're right

[@SuStel]

There is one character in The Hobbit whose sole motivation is greed: the Master of Lake-town.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Fair point! 😂

[@BenFrayle]

I think that's unfair. He was also interested in maintaining his control and preventing Girion's heir from supplanting him. The Dragon Sickness definately claimed him but he was a wealthy man beforehand.

[@SuStel]

@@BenFrayle Ehh... that's the movies, not the book.

[@BenFrayle]

@@SuStel No, the Master is in the book. Unlike in the movie where he was squashed by a dragon in the book he steals a chest of treasure and carries it into the wilderness, dying of exposure.

[@SuStel]

@BenFrayle I know the Master is in the book. See my first post. The Master in the book has nothing to do with the "heir of Girion" in the movies. In the book, the Master is concerned with (a) how expensive the dwarves are to keep, (b) using the dwarves to plant the idea of great gifts coming to Lake-town from the Lonely Mountain, and (c) not having the people of Lake-town blame him in the aftermath of Smaug.

[@masontrent5543]

Think there is a growing movement even beyond GRRM about having much more “realism” in fantasy stories. It’s definitely a particular preference for some. A friend who read Martin’s books, told me how several of his invented places and happenings are inspired by “real world” history places and happenings. And that’s fine. But I think people today (not everyone) but a good number, find intrigue, political detail, and explicit detail to reflect the “real world” much better than “just a fantasy,” which leaves a lot to mystery and magic. (Not my opinion, but I can see others do have this opinion.) It’s almost as though earlier fantasy stories are treated like “Disney Stories” that were “toned down for the kids.” And then people point out how rough the “real medieval world was,” and *hint hint* that any fantasy (not just Tolkien) that has swords and warriors and does not go into every little detail is somehow “doing a disservice.” Yes, it’s a simply a preference of taste, but it’s growing stronger I think today. It seems to imply that the closer a fantasy reflects the hardship in history (even apparently the gratuitous hardships), that it’s a “more honest approach.” And yes, the irony being that works that are fantasy are “fantasies.” But I notice how much mysticism of all kinds is cut back for shows today in order to gain audiences beyond a regular “fantasy audience.” A belief that if you aren’t explaining everything down to tax details, then it “doesn’t work.” With terms bandied around today like “magical thinking,” the very idea of any kind of spirituality, magic or mysticism sadly is viewed almost like a cliche. When it comes to Tolkien, I agree he is writing in a whole different mythic kind of level with some human storytelling interwoven through it. And I love it! But after reading about Tolkien and reading his books and wanting to read more of them (laugh), I just can’t think of his books like a “machine” that has to “work” to be good. Even though Tolkien might have wanted his books to do well, he was not writing them to “market them and sell them alone.” (Nothing wrong with that approach:-) But in some interviews, Tolkien leaves the feeling that he was “compelled” to right them. Yes, he had intent and knowledge of all those languages, mythologies, his spirituality…but sometimes he didn’t know what he was going to write until he got to a certain place. Even though he had ideas mapped out language and world wise…he also had moments where the inspiration came to him where it wasn’t all planned. (To be fair one could say that’s true of all writers) but Tolkien was less interested in the subplots of every extra character. And today most shows and books are almost required to get into those subplots and that’s fine and can be enjoyable. But that wasn’t Tolkien’s style. Doesn’t make one style bad or one style good. It just means different storytelling approaches. But for me and no one else has to agree…laugh. There is something to be said for leaving a little mystery and magic in the world without explaining every detail of it. My Mom was a scientist/Astronomer and knew and taught plenty of facts, but her favorite part of astronomy was sharing the wonder of the experience with other people when they saw sights through the telescope. If everything has to be explained or shown in detail all the time…then what of imagination? I have a poetry professor friend in NY who teaches various classes and he has pointed out that understanding poetry or explaining what it means is not always the goal…it’s also having your own experience of reading those poems and what they make you feel and how those words can convey all ranges of feelings, emotions and meanings for each person who reads them. And I think of how much poetry is in Tolkien…and I think that sometimes through the poetry he leaves things to our imaginations. And because of that to me, it has a stronger feeling and does not need to be spelled out… Even in the lays of Beleriand, after those months of long distance courting…between Beren and Luthien…when they dance together, at last there is a moment in that poetic “chapter,” where the curtain comes down on a scene and our imagination could take it any way…and that is really beautiful because it’s left up to the reader (we can choose or wonder what happens without having it spelled out) maybe yes? Maybe no? But there is something to be said for language…. It’s interesting. I think it just really comes down to preferences of taste and what people expect they will enjoy more. Both writers put effort in their work. But for me (and no one has to agree) it just feels sad that magic (though the elves thought of magic differently yes I know…art…just the way their world worked…nature etc) and mystery are thought of more like “shallow cliches today” that have no more substance than a magic card trick. I still think that humans can feel the beauty in moments on this planet and wonder and still be surprised…in spite of all the horrors and sorrow in the world. sometimes no words are needed. (so I’ll stop rambling like an ent! 😂)

[@masontrent5543]

I know you have your quibbles about the Peter Jackson LOTR films, but also give credit to elements you still liked in those films. I have to admit that even though there was a good bit of license in the extended scenes with Aragorn and Arwen in the movies and extended editions…that it was not completely far off from the books, as far as the appendices. In the books, we are seeing Aragorn and Arwen from a distance because we see them through Frodo’s eyes and Frodo wants to give them their privacy…that moment Arwen looks at him. It’s very nice. And I think emphasizes a kindness in Frodo as well. It works nicely in the books. However, I did not feel that all the extra Aragorn and Arwen scenes detracted from the story and before I go off into weeds or turn into an ent again…the way Aragorn and Arwen are shown in tender moments together feels like a subtle fit. They look into each others eyes…Aragorn looks at her pointed ears and lightly brushes one with his hand (the actors improv.) They put there heads together leaning into each other…and there is nothing visceral about it at all! One could argue we don’t have to see even that, because only the appendices hint at it. But I never felt that it detracted from the story. (Not getting into the Glorfindel debate laugh…that’s a whole other story with various opinions) But as far as the tender scenes between Aragorn and Arwen…all it really did was shift the viewpoint of their story more into the center than something distantly but sweetly observed by Frodo. When I’ve read the Beren and Luthien story and the ballad version there is emotion and passion hidden within the weaving of the words. And I think Jackson and his wife wanted to bring more of that idea from the appendices maybe with some creative license…and it doesn’t really bother me as much as other things like Sam and Frodo arguing. When Arwen rides all the way in the book to bring Aragorn his woven banner…her words though spoken in her love of him are much more formal…whereas that brief glimpse Frodo has of them at Rivendell hints of something less formal. Just as Aragorn grows less stern for a moment in Lorien as he day dreams of seeing Arwen there years ago. So to me it’s a complimentary way of giving a little more than a distant glance into their relationship that keeps a balance without being explicit.

[@Ongaliman]

First of all, there are family trees in the books. There is also a whole lot of smut hobbit fanfics, which indicates that a lot of people do think that hobbits have sex. And also for a person who talks a lot about naturalism, he rarely puts in the problems with menstruations. It is a part of life of every single woman, but he manages to only briefly mention it. Women get them each month, sometimes every three weeks or more often, but we don't see it in the books that much. Plus sexual assault was not as prevalent as he tries to show. It is a distorted view of middle ages that comes from historical fiction and not frim reality. It is like trying to use Maurice Druon's works for your French history exam.

[@KororaPenguin]

Not sure who Druon is/was, but it's like someone in the superior timeline of the Galaxy Far, Far Away using _The Acolyte_ for a history exam?

[@Ongaliman]

@@KororaPenguin you can say that. Druon wrote historical fiction, which is highly entertaining, well written and uses a lot of real facts, but it is still totally fictitious with a lot of exaggeration.

[@KororaPenguin]

@@Ongaliman _The Acolyte,_ meanwhile, was a vanity project by someone who doesn't get the essence of _Star Wars_ any more than GRRM gets the essence of Tolkien.

[@beatleblev]

Where would George put a sex scene in LotR? Tom and Goldberry getting it on and overheard by the Hobbits? A detailed recounting of the "we might be dead tomorrow," trysts at Helm's Deep? Our main characters are plunged into the middle of a two pronged war. Their minds are on their mission and their mission's on their minds. They have no time for love. If Robert Plant can't get laid in Mordor neither can Frodo, Sam, or Gollum. The Silmarillion, as you point out, has all of the scenarios on full display in A Song of Ice & Fire: the "twisting" of the Elves into Orcs, the, "Tale as old as time. Song as old as rhyme," Aredhel and Eol, and the aforementioned Turin soap opera to name a few. On a more serious note, I love both series but they are not even really in the same genre. The Lord of the Rings are not modern novels. They are not medieval histories/historical fiction either but they are written in that mode. They are derivative of the myths of Northern Europe that Tolkien was familiar with, the Romances of Arthur, and the faith traditions he grew up with, along with a need for mouths to speak the languages he had made. Martin's books, on the other hand, are excellent examples of the marriage of the novel and the fantastic that have come to define the modern fantasy genre.

[@luizmenezes9971]

As for Tom and Goldberry, the former says "don't mind the noises" when the hobbits spend the night at his house...

[@talithakoum3922]

The Robert Plant reference is magnificent.

[@Fred_Lougee]

​@@talithakoum3922 Yeah. If Robert Plant can't get laid in Mordor then it's hopeless, nobody can.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

That led zeppelin reference got me cackling

[@troffle]

> Where would George put a sex scene in LotR? forgodssakes stop Amazon might be listening.

[@smarttravel3144]

Of all the races of Middle-earth I have the least trouble imagining the Hobbits being into sex. (Not that I do imagine such things, as my name is not GRRRRRM, but if I have to think about it...) You could make a point about the Elves being too aloof and ethereal to care about that sort of thing or Dwarf women not being seen at any point in the saga or the Entwives not having been seen at all in many a century even by the Ents themselves, but the Hobbits? They are basically half-rabbits as it is; Samwise's number of kids speaking for itself.

[@troffle]

I hate to be seen as even merely almost defending Martin or his argument, so rest assured that I'm not. But I would just like to point out that Sam absolutely was, I believe the modern nomenclature has it as, a total boss.

[@paulchapman8023]

Don't hobbit men look like Tyrion Lannister? Because that's quite a failure of George's imagination if he can't imagine someone who looks like Tyrion Lannister being sexually active.

[@leonrussell9607]

Show tyrion or book tyrion?

[@paulchapman8023]

@@leonrussell9607 I think show tyrion does. I'm less sure about book tyrion.

[@leonrussell9607]

@@paulchapman8023 book tyrion is 3 foot tall, and doesn't have a nose, he's a gremlin

[@paulchapman8023]

@@leonrussell9607 3 feet tall is "about half our height," as Tolkien said about hobbits. Point taken about the lack of nose, though.

[@leonrussell9607]

@@paulchapman8023 I don't like LOTD so I don't know anything about hobbits

[@aliasfakename4183]

It is pretty clear that Martin is criticizing Tolkien for writing the wrong book. In fact, I am not sure he really understands what Tolkien was trying to do.

[@michaelwills1926]

George martin is the gas station mag rack version of Tolkien

[@stkkjj]

This is just another example of a general problem I have with George RR Martin's fantasy opinions. It's like he thinks every fantasy should be just like A Song of ice and Fire, and he solved the genre.

[@MrChickennugget360]

right? I guess he is upset there are no graphic descriptions of hobbit copulation in LotRs. Good thing G.R.R. Martain did not make the movies, or he would have made it into porno and never finished it. if G.R.R. Martain made the books chapters would go something like 1. A long Expected (Swingers) Party 2. Shadow of the Past (and other queer goings on) 3. Three is Company (in other ways than traveling)

[@MarkHogan994]

He doesn't think that at all. People need to stop making silly assumptions based on out of context quotes. So many Tolkien fans think Martin hates Tolkien and this is straight up delusional. Martin is a huge Tolkien fan and re-reads Lord of the rings every few years. It's one of his favorite books of all time. This whole anti-Martin thing is so absurd. Dude's been a Tolkien fan since before most of us were born.

[@stkkjj]

​@MarkHogan994 I never said he hated them, but I've seen full clips where he basically critiques them for not having grey characters. And if it's not a critique then he should be more careful with his wording. And you're wrong about it being out of context, I literally found the video where he said it and it's obviously a critique. Not out of context at all, go find the source before you defend him.

[@jamesverhoff1899]

Whether or not Martin is a fan of LOTR is not an issue. The criticisms he's making (and he's an author, we can assume he's descent with words) reveal an extremely poor understanding of what LOTR is--the themes, the conceit of translation, the limitations of the story he's telling (nine dudes walking through the wilderness does not provide much fodder for eroticism), etc. Adding sex wouldn't advance the story an inch; it would merely be a distraction. For an author to not realize that this is sufficient reason to exclude such things from a story is simply inexcusable. This is Writing 101. Tolkien is not immune from criticism, even in his own literary criticism. His comments about Narnia are equally vapid. It seems that authors tend to believe that what makes a good story is similarity to what they write.

[@perlundgren7797]

@@stkkjj Of course it's a critique. You can like something without blindly accepting it as flawless.

[@zekeolopwi6642]

In fairness I should mention, one of the first scenes of intimacy is also one of the only healthy ones, and happens to involve character inner monolog about procreation. Specifically between Catlyn and Ned. She says to herself that she hopes to give him another son or something along those lines. The other mostly healthy relationship that's doesn't involve procreation but does involve seggs is with Jon Snow and Ygritte.

[@aceambling7685]

Also, procreation (genetics) is central to most of the major plot driving mysteries/conspiracies in the series, half of all the fan theories are about characters parentage for a reason.

[@RorytheRomulan]

Ugh. The whole thing with Lord of the Rings is that you're not supposed to be imagining these characters having sex, you're supposed to be focusing on their struggles for survival and independence from an evil force that wants to enslave them and dominate their lives. It's treated as the birds and the bees. Have you had the discussion? If yes, you know the story. Have you not? Don't worry about it, you don't need it to follow the little man's trials as he carries the thing.

[@sandorsbox]

Seriously, do you get to watch all of your friends in the act of conceiving their children? NO! You know what they did, but they don't describe it to you in detail or let you watch! God, that man's a creep.

[@StarShadowPrimal]

I've heard similar statements from people who are upset that there aren't such scenes in the Harry Potter series, since "of course it would happen with all those students in one boarding school." Never mind that any adult who is willing to write such scenes regarding minors is a creep, but how weak-minded does someone have to be to not realize that if something is obviouly happening, that is a clear reason that the author shouldn't feel any need to describe it specifically.

[@talithakoum3922]

HP already had too much innuendo for a children's series, which everyone keeps forgetting or denying that it is. The scene where Harry hangs out in the haunted shower room with the female ghost was creepy. Or the time when Harry and Ron were skulking around at the Christmas ball and saw the French girl making out with the nerdy guy. It's not that much more risqué than the average teen novel, I guess, but kids as young as eight read those books and it's completely inappropriate for them.

[@wanderingknight7777]

Plus, aren't the characters in the story under the age of 18 anyways? So if someone thinks that a sex scene NEEDS to be shown between students......well, hopefully you catch my drift on how creepy that idea sounds. 😓 Edit: I just reread your comment and I just NOW noticed you said minors, so that answers my question. Yikes.

[@LP-tf7cy]

​@@talithakoum3922kids seeing kissing scenes, even up to making out is fine, it's not unlikely they'll see it in the real world, especially if they have older siblings, or are in a culture where PDA is more accepted. But anything past that definitely shouldn't be there, that belongs behind closed doors.

[@talithakoum3922]

@@LP-tf7cyEvery kid is different. Lengthy or intense PDA scenes made me EXTREMELY uncomfortable as a child. That's my rubric: if something made me uncomfortable when I was that age, I will not expose my future kids to it until they are past that age.

[@KororaPenguin]

I wonder if one of those complainers was the author of the infamous Rose Potter series. That's the one that replaces Harry with Rose, a psychopathic jailbait druidess.

[@paulayers1111]

It reminds me how Freud considered sex to be the main motivating factor for humanity, yet his brilliant student Carl Jung WILDLY disagreed with this core idea. Jung believed we are motivated by a more general life force that could include intellectual, artistic or spiritual motivations

[@joannemoore3976]

Enjoyed this a lot..yes just implicit in Tolkien. He handles the Faramir Eowyn romance beautifully. It's also pretty clear what is going on with Wormtongue's attention to her. Tolkien knows that sex is not only healthy but essentially PRIVATE. That's what Martin doesn't get.

[@purplelibraryguy8729]

My favourite George R.R. Martin book is actually an old standalone SF novel called "Tuf Voyaging", which has no sex and whose main character seems to have no interest in such. So I mean, we might be reading too much into an offhand comment.

[@reactiondavant-garde3391]

I think this is + one time when Martin doesn't read the text enough. In Lord of the Rings we see motivation for sex, Wormtounge whole motivaton is lust. In Silmarilion one of the city states of the lefes fall because one of the elfs lust for his cousin as well. We see the opposite as well, as you said Aragorn wanting to marry Arwen is a motivation. The problem is thet Martin can't see how romantic relationships are partly sexual so if the motivation is not mainly sexual he think the sexual motifes not even present. In Tolkien this topic is very clearly part of the story as a theme as well, but Tolkien perspecive is mroe complex, it is allow different things to work together in the same time.

[@juckoosaurus]

This ia coming from a guy that wrote the lines fat pink mast and myrish swamp

[@robertburns2415]

You mean the difference between.......... And they lived happily ever after And And they lived happily until one day

[@markpaterson2053]

I'm not a LOTR superfan, but after reading all of the Song of Fire and Ice series I definitely see Tolkein as the greater writer, in scope, imagination and overall storytelling; Martin is a little one dimensional on all the above mentioned, he simply writes for adults and doesn't shy away from the worst of humanity-----and yes, it DOES get a little bit tiresome, especially at certain moments (in the novels) where it seems he's written himself into a corner and just switches to another character. It's a little run-of-the-mill too; I feel like this series could just be one long narrative because each story just cuts off, no trimmings... Don't get me wrong, I did actually enjoy the series, especially the little touches that immerse you in his world, like a courtier wiping her finger on the rim of a mustard barrel, sucking her finger and smiling at the quality, knowing the evening is going to be a rich event...that really made me feel like I was there.

[@waltonsmith7210]

The lore of his world is surprisingly deep, he's not that bad, and neither is Tolkien. They're just different.

[@markpaterson2053]

@@waltonsmith7210 Agreed, though I do find I can see the edge of the map a lot sooner in G.R.R. Martin's world, it just seems way less involved, but I think that's intentional; the characters are the real world building in Song of Fire and Ice, moreso the awful deeds they get up to. I find the characters in both writers' works to be just a bit 2-dimansional in many ways, probably due to the detachment of fantasy in general

[@belisaurusgaming6192]

What a very careful way of saying 'Goerge is a perv'

[@captivatednightshade1432]

Well, maybe Mr Martin should channel some of that and finish Winds of Winter since he apparently has time to comment on other ppl's works.

[@henrikg1388]

I guess he misunderstood the concept of procreation and forgot to have kids who could wrap it up too, like Cristopher Tolkien. 😀

[@billphister]

Sam and Rosie could explain it to him.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

Sam could've probably given Martin some pointers on how to keep his marriage intact. And satisfying his woman.

[@mrbubbles6468]

JRR did not leave it out. Sam is set up at the start liking a girl but not being brave enough to tell her. Through the journey he becomes brave enough.

[@KororaPenguin]

The _My Little Pony_ episode "The Perfect Pear" is naturally kid-friendly, but it's abundantly clear to adult viewers that both Bright Mac and Buttercup were looking forward to the cover on their wedding night. Not to mention that they have three foals before they pass away.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

I think you just made me flashback to middle school.

[@markpaterson2053]

the last one I read had Stannis Baratheon snowed in and unable to progress (in story as well as his journey). Has G.R.R Martin STILL not finished the next novel?

[@jjhh320]

Martin has fundamentally set the fantasy genre back. Too many people are trying to follow in his footsteps, and so we have all sorts of tryhard, cynical, subversive stories spilling into the fantasy genre. If not writing these stories, then people vastly prefer the lewd, vapid, evil-wins tropes he introduced. I think he's been in the business long enough to know his work is just his niche, but most people now assume it to be the norm. GoT being a big cause of that. Fantasy fiction is growing incredibly subpar because of people who follow in his footsteps.

[@OnlineVideoSurfer]

It's strange, I've always felt that Lord of the Rings was very rich and full of passion with its characters. In fact, if anything, I think a lot of popular fiction has degraded a little bit in portraying the complexity of human relationships. Especially in terms of deep friendships, there's a superficiality and distance between characters nowadays compared to the love felt between Frodo and Sam. And even in terms of romantic relationships, a lot of the sex that does exist often feels, for lack of a better way of putting it, shipper-ish. It either feels like people are treating the characters like dolls or they're more interested in the graphic sexual detail instead of what is sensible to the world. Now, I do want to defend Martin a little bit. From what I've read of his books, while some of his content does feel like it was written one-handed, there is still a lot of nuance to his writing. Depravity and sexual neurosis are yes their own motivating factors, and there is a kind of insight to his books in regards to what a ruler needs to do if they wish to both obtain power as well as what kind of people are drawn to seek power. It's just that Martin's perspective is a fairly narrow one - certainly in terms of sex if I understand him correctly - and I think Lord of the Rings has a much richer understanding of human (and hobbit) relationships. It's also, like you said, a narrow perspective that does not need to be in every story.

[@somni2246]

Very well-stated, insightful comment!

[@poneill65]

When has sex ever "made us do noble things"? "Stupid things" for sure,.. every minute of every day, ever! Love has led to some noble acts (occasionally, as it's typically a fleeting chemical imbalance), but not sex.

[@johnbell7579]

For some like Martin love only exists so that you can have sex... There's a line in the show that talks about the army of eunuchs that basically said why on earth would they fight since they aren't motivated by their ability to breed.

[@LoganardoDVinci]

👆 Imbeciles

[@ThalonRamacorn]

Yes but noble act can lead to sex :P So if the motivation for sex is a noble act, then the motivation for that noble act is sex. Simple

[@concept5631]

I think Martin confuses love and lust a lot

[@johnbell7579]

@@concept5631 that's the sixties for you.

[@nicodemous52]

That he can't imagine it, is part of the point. The Hobbits as a whole, are just that wholesome.

[@MohseenLala]

Who cares about the sex, tell me the Shire's tax policy!! Argh!

[@troffle]

Do a search for [aragorn's tax policy brothers krynn]. This has indeed been addressed.

[@baddragonite]

"going to the toilet is a big part of life but it's not a big motivating factor" Idk man if you've ever had too much taco bell and you're in a public place the restroom tends to be a pretty big motivating factor on what you do at that point 😂😂

[@petermuller9480]

Not everything needs to be explicitly shown or described in a story. Sometimes just alluding to stuff, especially horrible stuff, is even more impactful, than actually describing said artrocities directly. (And, yes, I know, that s*x isn't something "horrible", but it is something people are very often guarded about) It's fairly obvious, that GRRM is very keen on directly describing EVERYTHING. This not only leaves no room for imagination, it also will repel and even disgust a number of people. He is free to write his work this way, of course, but Tolkiens fiction is a lot more agreeable to the audience, since it is a lot more restrained in showing certain stuff. The fact, that GRRM mentioned, that he can't imagine hobbits doing it, is very indicative of a person, who wants to have every single detail spelled out in a story, because otherwise he can't picture it in his mind. This is really weird in my opinion. Books are just words written on paper. You HAVE TO make them come alive in your head anyway! I don't know why he has this misconception of stories needing to tell you EVERYTHING. No. No, they don't.

[@aceambling7685]

The Broken Empire trilogy are probably the most brutal books Ive ever read second to Blood Meridian, far more violent and horrifying than any of Martin's work, but even those books know that allusion is better than description when describing sex, especially sexual violence.

[@Peak_Aussieman]

Martin's not going to be remembered anywhere near as well as Tolkien. That's just the reality of it. He's a product of the 2010's, doomed to age poorly.

[@publiusdos5925]

Not finishing his series isn't helping his case either.

[@lekhaclam87]

​@@publiusdos5925Definitely one of the things he will be known for in the future.

[@andrew-hf9fl]

He already is. If he finishes it, and the quality continues at the level of the first five books, he will Absolutely go down in history as one of the greatest fantasy authors of all time. If he doesn't, then that Is game over for his legacy. Also, only one of the books came out in the 2010s.

[@Peak_Aussieman]

@@andrew-hf9fl See, I never even heard of this geezer until after his nudie show came out.

[@OtakuNoShitpost]

​@@andrew-hf9flMeanwhile I say he's already started to be forgotten. I think more often of Ursula K LeGuin than I do of Martin. I expect he will go down in history alongside Jack Whyte more than Tolkien

[@FelixIakhos]

Much like other artist they just create different works with different goals. Both are great authors who wrote great works, they just have a different worldview and a different piece of art they intend to create.

[@michaelwills1926]

One finished his book, the other didn’t

[@traumachild1737]

"I can't read this, theres no sex in it" -G.R.R. Martin

[@KororaPenguin]

So, does he dislike the _Myst_ series because we don't see Atrus and Katran making Yeesha?

[@gildedbear5355]

Martin, here's the thing, just because something happens doesn't mean that it has to happen on screen. Likewise, just because something doesn't appear on screen doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

[@KororaPenguin]

Does George R. R. Martin want _Bluey_ to go into how Bingo, Bluey, and their deceased older sibling came to be?

[@Baldwin-iv445]

​@@KororaPenguin He probably would.

[@neonswitchblade]

The way George R.R. Martin handles the role sex plays in a society is the same way Quentin Tarantino handles Black people's roles.

[@VoiceoftheRings]

Very good talk man! I understand why you did not want to talk about this. but, You did a fantastic job covering it! Thank you! It's important to say why Tolkien did not do that. I think what you said was right on.

[@bradendouglas7315]

Not to mention that Tolkien does occasionally use lust as a slight motivator with two of Faenor's sons when they meet Luthien on the hound and become infatuated with her, but even then they failed and it's not even the only factor (the other one being gaining more power in Arda) Another part that's similar in the same story is where Luthien is before Morgoth and he too becomes infatuated, though to what extent it is not revealed but instead allowed to the imagination of the reader to suppose, and because of that it takes on a completely different, even more disturbing, level than if he had just....well did what George woulda wrote

[@Laurelin70]

Also, Maeglin essentially forced himself on Idril, even if she was "not too unwilling".

[@bradendouglas7315]

@@Laurelin70 I forgot about that, but where does it say she wasn't that unwilling? On a sidenot, for some reason I always thought Maeglin was an interesting character in the Fall of Gondolin, something about the way Tolkien constructed him always gave him a sympathetic undercurrent, even if he was a Judas

[@ErnestLordGoring]

Where do Hobbits come from? The opposite direction to Isengard, of course! 😂

[@GateCaptain]

GRRM: "Tolkien doesn't write about economics." Economics in GRRM Books: "The town is ten thousand years old and consists of a small dock and a tavern run by a lady with large tatas, I mean HUGE bazoingas, just absolutely massive -" it goes on for 1-4 paragraphs. I swear 95% of the population of Planetos consists of sailors, mercenaries, and ladies of the night with the occasional lord, servant, and blacksmith sprinkled in the mix.

[@KingBuilder525]

"Sex is a part of the human experience". So are the things I put in the toilet, yet somehow I doubt most of these 'sex positive' types like Martin would want to have a long detailed discussion about it. Edit: should have watched the full video before posting.

[@thehussarsjacobitess85]

Your edit at the bottom of the comment nearly killed me while I was drinking kombucha. The drink went places in my sinuses I didn't know I had...and that's a part of life that GRRM and Tolkien both neglected. Sniff.

[@firstnamelastname9237]

@@thehussarsjacobitess85I’ve had kombucha go up my nose. I know that pain.

[@keegan112099]

You have not read Martin then because he absolutely writes about shitting and pissing. I think a lot of Tolkein puritans in these comments can't handle anything mildly graphic or grasp that different authors have different styles. Martin's style is way more visceral than Tolkein and is darkly humorous at times. I don't think there's a single sex scene in all of A Song Of Ice And Fire that isn't described as anything but sexy. It's always gross in a very true to life way which is just his writing philosophy it's how everything he writes is thematically. I love both authors for very different reasons and I hate seeing how media takes clips of interviews where he's forced to make the comparison and trying to explain what I just did above and getting quoted like the man hates Tolkein when that can't be further from the truth.

[@k9ine999]

Sex is an emotional, impactful, and consequenal part of life. Using the bathroom is not.

[@Charles-A]

@@k9ine999 Don't go for two days and tell me that again :P. Just kidding

[@MegaKnight2012]

I'll bet Martin can't fathom that whilst Beren and Luthien lived for a while in the woods before enacting their epic quest, whilst not being married, they didn't even do the Devil's Tango, merely lived chastely.

[@spencertaylor-mrliltay]

It’s head scratching to me, how there are so many storytellers and people creating movies/shows/books that all seem to think they don’t storytelling better than storytellers of old like Tolkien. So many these days think they’re doing something special by adding stuff like sex into their story. Yet most of the great story franchises over the last century most of those storytellers were mature enough to understand that some things in a story can be left out and implied rather than having to be shown or explicitly talked about. There’s a reason we don’t things like characters having sex, using the restroom, etc… in things like Star Wars, Tolkien, Harry Potter, and so on! We know obviously that things like that would happen to those characters, but that doesn’t mean we have to read about or see it happening within the story. Take history for example. History is just stories and information about things that did or are believed to have happened. Sure there are historical accounts that are exceptions but most stories in history that get talked about, generally don’t go into detail about what was eaten on a particular day, and who had sex with who, and how that all went. We know those people in history had sex, and did other natural things, that doesn’t mean it’s worth taking time to mention it.

[@KororaPenguin]

One thing that really irked me about Larry Niven's novel _The Ringworld Engineers_ was all the gratuitous inter-primate yiff.

[@maaderllin]

GRRM's greatest strenght is also the source of his greatest weakness. A well written story has two things. Two types of choices: 1- Causality (As in how the character's choices make the story progress) and 2- Focus (As in how the author chooses what to show, what story to tell among the multitude of choices that can happen in the fiction). About causality: Causality is when your story follows a logical series of events that are caused by each other, and by the character's reactions to the first event in the causality chain. Poorly written stories will have a "And then" kinda structure, like Rings of Power, in which events are just following each others, but none of the events are caused by the character's reactions to the preceding event. In some other instances, the character's actions are creating a causality, but they don't feel natural in the way that the actions are logical for the established personality of the characters (An action can be illogical in itself, but logical when taking into consideration the flaws of a character). GRRM is a master at this. The reason ASOIAF resonated with such a large public is that he writes great (and greatly flawed, messed up, even) characters that really feel human. Their reactions to the circumstances are always creating new events from which other characters will react and so on. He's also writing A LOT of the intimate life and thoughts of his characters. This has the effect of making them more human, although some of them are indeed messed up by life, and more relatable. But this bleeds into his many weaknesses. He can't make choices. He's great at making his characters make choices, but he doesn't seem to be able to make them himself. About focus: I was reading, for a "Certificat en Création Littéraire" an essay about how History is written. Although History is a science, that uses the scientific method to explain historical phenomenon through the cross-referencing of different types of sources, all historians still need to make choices in what they want to focus on. Even though the reality of how societies change over time is multifactorial, one cannot write history in a comprehensive manner AND take everything into consideration. It is only through the careful examination of everything that is produced by historians that we can then triangulate to get closer to the truth. And this also send us back to Tolkien's comment about allegory. Quote: "I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." Writing a story requires that the author makes choices. Just like a historian needs to show the relevance of the elements he presents in his study of an event or a historical context, authors needs to choose what they want to present, because in "History, true or feigned", we humans need to see humans acting for it to make sense in our eyes. GRRM is incapable of making those choices. He was planning 5 books, with a timeskip after the 3rd. He couldn't do the timeskip without writing what characters would do, and then added so much characters that he had to split his 4th book into 2 (FfC and DwD). His need to represent every single choice and intimate thought forced his story to become so large and convoluted that A) he's struggling at finishing it and B) The people tasked with adapting his story in a show had to cut so much stuff to just be able to finish it that it felt rushed, unnatural and everybody hated it. This is the true source of his inability to imagine Hobbits having sex. It's because his process in writing is all about character's intimate lives and choices, but he's got no focus, so if something isn't represented, he complains about it. Just like the stuff about tax policy.

[@brendansheehy8124]

Even if Tolkien wanted to make LOTR a bit steamier (btw I don’t think he did) his books were also published in an era of much greater censorship where sex scenes in books would have caused them to be banned or go unpublished. Most writers of that era had to skirt around this issue carefully and rely more on implication and insinuation rather than spelling it out to the reader. Martin has the freedom to include basically any lurid detail he wants in his books.

[@Evarakeus]

Not really true at all, "Lolita" was published in the 50s as well and that's a novel about a man outright raping a teenage girl. I think Tolkien saying two characters consensually smashed would've been just fine for publishers in comparison

[@brendansheehy8124]

@@Evarakeus Tolkien wrote books for general audiences young and old. Lolita was the subject of huge controversy upon its release and was banned in many countries. The example you give is a complete outlier of the times and didn’t represent the social norms of the publishing industry during that period.

[@troffle]

@@Evarakeus > would've been just fine for publishers in comparison ... in comparison. To the book that had: British Customs officers were then instructed by the Home Office to seize all copies entering the United Kingdom.[46] In December 1956, France followed suit, and the Minister of the Interior banned Lolita;[47] the ban lasted for two years. Its eventual British publication by Weidenfeld & Nicolson in London in 1959 was controversial enough to contribute to the end of the political career of the Conservative member of parliament Nigel Nicolson, one of the company's partners. You pick some mighty interesting points of comparison.

[@michaelwills1926]

Society hadn’t yet degraded to this point in Tolkien’s day.

[@TrangDB9]

You know, it's like with bees and flowers.

[@alcyonae]

You see, Martin made that point to justify himself, not to denigrate Tolkien’s choices. As anything on Twitter, this was blown out of proportion. I’m sure you, Martin and Tolkien would agree on every point. Martin isn’t stupid, on the contrary, so the condescending tone is a bit unwarranted. He’s also a giant perv for sure. To him, s3* is like eating, breathing, and sleeping. And he talks A LOT about those things too. While Tolkien’s story is one where mundane events are left to the reader’s imagination, Martin blew ASOIAF to a human-scale history, that’s why he’s struggling so much to finish it. No single human can store all of humanity in one’s brain (and tbh he hasn’t scratched the surface of that lofty goal, nor should it be the objective of a good story teller). A single writer can’t keep it all together, and much less so the reader. Even historians need to refresh their memories and stick to their fields of expertise. And btw, HBO made Martin’s story much more vulgar. I am reading ASOIAF now and sure, there are sparse instances of nudity and acts, but they aren’t given the prominence or explicit gratuity of the show. Just as an FYI. I know many prudish people who couldn’t stomach the show but appreciated the books.

[@troffle]

> You see, Martin made that point to justify himself, not to denigrate Tolkien’s choices ... which is why we're hearing about Martin's commentary on Tolkien's writing...?

[@alcyonae]

@@troffle did you intend to make a point?

[@troffle]

@@alcyonae And you have the skull vacuum to try telling me about Dunning-Kruger? Martin makes comment on Tolkien's style and you say that's just to justify himself? If you're not capable of reading and you have to ask about the point, you are the last person who can hurl accusations based on the works of Dunning and Kruger. I think we can put yours into the class of "unconscious incompetence".

[@alcyonae]

@@troffleok boomer you admitted yourself to not reading ASOIAF. I offered you another chance to realize Martin didn’t say Tolkien was at fault, but rather that Martin isn’t at fault for addressing the mundane, which Tolkien leaves to the imagination. Maybe practice what you preach, love

[@troffle]

@@alcyonae 1) Gen X. 2) I wasn't criticising Martin's "assignation of fault". I was criticising Martin's inability to accept Tolkien's different style. 3) which requires no reading of ASOIAF on my part. 4) Maybe you should try practicing thinking. You might find it extremely difficult to start, but you might find it worthwhile some distant future year.

[@JimBoFet171]

Papa Nurgle wants you to write stories with more bathroom trips.

[@thatfellow7556]

Shouldn't GRR Martin be in the news for writing his next book?

[@VespoLiveGaming]

I believe when Samwise gets married to Rosie, he puts his wingwang in her barbiepocket until they both go woohoo, then nine months later Rosie gives birth to a baby hobbit, which learns to walk and talk then asks Sam tobtellbthem that story about Andy Serkis's ring again.

[@licmir3663]

I wonder whether the long lifespan of dwarves and elves decreases their sexual urges. After all, there is no natural incentive to have children if you’re not getting older, especially if you’re a woman. This would explain why so many of them were bachelors, and why both Bilbo and Frodo never married. The ring prevented them from aging, thus taking alway any natural desire to reproduce.

[@haleywilson520]

I'm not sure about dwarves, but I do know that elves have distinct stages in their life cycles. One of them involves marriage and having children, and then that parenting stage more or less ends and it sounds like they lose interest after that. They also won't have children if they're dealing with war or similar hardships

[@BenFrayle]

@@haleywilson520 Tolkien states explicitly that elves only mate for procreation (which is always successful) and only a few times during their very long lives.

[@pavelslama5543]

23:49 "Why does Martin say those things?" Well, its rather simple. He wants to indirectly put himself on par or above the greatest writer of the 20th century (or possibly ever), despite the fact that his story still lacks the end. He published his "fellowship" and "two towers", haven´t yet released or even finished his "return of the king" because he has written himself into a dead end, and so he feels the need to promote himself artificially like this.